| --- Log opened Thu Nov 01 00:00:07 2012 | ||
| --- Day changed Thu Nov 01 2012 | ||
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| @kanzure | "it's not human enhancement! it's human optimization!" | 09:01 |
|---|---|---|
| archels | optimization is curing illness. | 09:04 |
| strangewarp | sod enhancement, sod optimization, you shouldn't have to justify the desire to do odd things to yourself | 09:07 |
| strangewarp | any system that calls itself "ethics", but which puts itself between a human and their attainable ideal, should be considered suspicious | 09:09 |
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| jrayhawk | uhhhh huh | 09:27 |
| jrayhawk | might i suggest reading Ominous Parallels so you might understand the practical results of such a philosophy | 09:28 |
| jrayhawk | well, maybe not reading it. Reading it is probably not worth the effort. Skimming it, at least. | 09:29 |
| strangewarp | Oh! You misunderstand. I mean that only in the context of improving the self, not forcing improvements on others. | 09:30 |
| strangewarp | Also, don't think I mean "toward optimal conditions" when I say "improvement". I mean improvement as in: that which makes an individual more like the sort of person they want to be. | 09:31 |
| jrayhawk | "not forcing on others" sounds like an ethic which puts itself between me and my attainable ideals of self-enhancement | 09:32 |
| strangewarp | ...You seem to be collapsing the idea of personal improvement into the idea of improvement-of-others, to create a stacked deck that compares me to nazis? what? | 09:33 |
| strangewarp | Also, this reminds me of the discussion on post-scarcity: "Post-scarcity will fulfill almost everyone's desires" "What if my desires are to use all available resources? Ha ha you lose" | 09:34 |
| jrayhawk | Yes, when you suggest agency has primacy over ethics, you open yourself up to being called a Nazi. That was *the* philosophical construct that produced Naziism. | 09:36 |
| jrayhawk | Along with most other catastrophic fascist states. | 09:36 |
| strangewarp | Yes, but that was agency of the folk, not agency of the individual. And you seem to think that my insistence on the primacy of agency of the individual extends past the self, which it does not. | 09:37 |
| strangewarp | er, agency of the construct of folk used as a nationalist parlour-trick* | 09:37 |
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| strangewarp | Anyway, if you're trying to say the holocaust was caused by the lack of an overarcing systematized ethical system, I think you'll find that the Nazis were authoritarian enough to have manufactured their own overarcing "ethical" system - so it wasn't the primacy of agency over ethics, but rather the creation of a toxic system that called itself ethics, after they used the rhetoric of agency to come to power. | 09:46 |
| jrayhawk | No, actually, they were specifically hostile towards ethics. | 09:48 |
| strangewarp | Absolutely, I agree. | 09:49 |
| jrayhawk | Ethics were seen as a weakness and a barrier to the supremecy of their will. | 09:49 |
| jrayhawk | "mere rationality" | 09:49 |
| strangewarp | ...I'm still not seeing how you're saying this is similar to a pluralist treatment of morphological freedom... | 09:51 |
| jrayhawk | You seem to want Kantianism without the resulting Hegelism. Once you place agency ahead of ethics, then the question of which agency is best becomes a question of which agency is most able to collectivize and accumulate power. | 09:52 |
| ParahSai1in | who's in for a liquid fluoride thorium reactor kickstarter? | 09:52 |
| nmz787 | whoo! | 09:53 |
| jrayhawk | Fortunately the answer to this is usually Abrahamist institutions, which are an innoculation to that philosophy. | 09:53 |
| jrayhawk | A sneaky, sneaky innoculation. | 09:53 |
| nmz787 | jrayhawk: strangewarp: what if there are just two types of people, with ethics, and without... then as ethical people we have to accept that and just try to do whatever we can | 09:53 |
| foucist | ParahSai1in: actually, a coldfusion kickstarter might be neat | 09:53 |
| jrayhawk | Actually, I basically do believe that. | 09:54 |
| strangewarp | jrayhawk: That treatment of agency-before-ethics assumes that objective morality cannot be inferred, and furthermore, that situations without objective morality trend toward selfish brutality without a top-down ethical apparatus. | 09:54 |
| nmz787 | either to stay alive and our ethical kind (i.e. family, genetics), or to try and sway things in generally an ethical direction whenever we can | 09:54 |
| ParahSai1in | foucist: i would have thought it would be easier to raise money for something that works with the physics we know | 09:54 |
| strangewarp | Anyway, I was just trying to say that people should be free to do weird and artful things to their bodies without having to prove it has a beneficial purpose. Which I see as an anti-nazi tendency, if anything. | 09:55 |
| jrayhawk | all actions have externalities | 09:56 |
| strangewarp | jrayhawk: I'm assuming no obviously harmful externalities, like turning your heart into an atom bomb or anything. | 09:56 |
| nmz787 | strangewarp: what started this conversation? i didnt see the logs | 09:57 |
| jrayhawk | 09:07 < strangewarp> sod enhancement, sod optimization, you shouldn't have to justify the desire to do odd things to yourself | 09:57 |
| jrayhawk | 09:09 < strangewarp> any system that calls itself "ethics", but which puts itself between a human and their attainable ideal, should be considered suspicious | 09:57 |
| jrayhawk | 09:25 -!- nmz787 [~Nathan@107.63.73.255] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:57 |
| strangewarp | nmz787: I don't even know, it might have been a faulty grammar choice on my part? Or a terminology mismatch of some kind | 09:58 |
| nmz787 | oh | 09:58 |
| nmz787 | geexz | 09:58 |
| nmz787 | it was like 4 lines | 09:58 |
| nmz787 | :P | 09:58 |
| foucist | ParahSai1in: erm, i meant polywell fusion | 09:59 |
| nmz787 | so it sounds like you're saying ethics is suspicious | 10:00 |
| nmz787 | consider the perspective of a jihadist | 10:00 |
| nmz787 | our ethics of 'hey don't car bomb yourself and bunch of women and kids' gets in their way | 10:01 |
| nmz787 | it ' puts itself between a human and their attainable ideal' | 10:01 |
| strangewarp | The difference there is that jihad actively seeks to harm others, while extreme bodmods don't | 10:01 |
| strangewarp | So the comparison doesn't really hold up | 10:02 |
| nmz787 | obviously the women and kids shouldn't die, but we generally think the jihadist should | 10:02 |
| jrayhawk | once again, "do not harm others" is an ethic | 10:02 |
| nmz787 | so then ethics of jihad are different than ethics of bodymod? | 10:02 |
| jrayhawk | it's also an impossible ethic; all actions have externalities and it's a question of degree and tradeoff | 10:03 |
| jrayhawk | in performing self-surgery, i am taking a risk of invoking a political/medical apparatus of compulsory suffering by someone else | 10:04 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: so wait, you have an account on gnusha but you choose to log in from another ip address? | 10:04 |
| strangewarp | jrayhawk: I'm not saying discard ethics; I'm saying be suspicious of those attitudes that call themselves "ethics" but which wall off access to benign benefits. | 10:05 |
| strangewarp | example: the anti-stem cell research freakout | 10:05 |
| ParahSai1in | foucist: i havent been keeping up with fusion research as much as i should | 10:05 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: umm, you mean my IRC account? i use pidgin | 10:05 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: you should try logging into irc from gnusha sometime. | 10:06 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: how come? | 10:06 |
| @kanzure | because it's nice to have a persistent irc connection that you can come back to later | 10:06 |
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| nmz787 | ugh, but I'm in windows | 10:06 |
| nmz787 | i have some git bash installed | 10:07 |
| nmz787 | mingw32 | 10:07 |
| @kanzure | you probably have cygwin installed, which i believe installs ssh by default. | 10:07 |
| ParahSai1in | interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Fusion | 10:07 |
| nmz787 | but i can't paste into it easily because its running in a MS cmd.exe prompt | 10:07 |
| @kanzure | i think fenn is supposed to be our resident polywell expert but he's presently missing in action | 10:07 |
| nmz787 | yeah I have ssh there | 10:07 |
| nmz787 | but its a PITA to paste into | 10:07 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: cygwin provides bash which is not the cmd.exe prompt | 10:08 |
| @kanzure | i think. | 10:08 |
| nmz787 | hmm | 10:08 |
| jrayhawk | yes, i am sure your interests could be much better served by eliminating all ethical constraints | 10:08 |
| nmz787 | jrayhawk: what are you up to today? | 10:08 |
| nmz787 | jrayhawk: these guys out said I could stop by, you'd be welcome to come I think http://norsam.com/about-us.html | 10:09 |
| jrayhawk | Hmm. First of the month. Need to send out bills. Thursday. Maybe go into the office, but not sure if I care that much. | 10:09 |
| @kanzure | you have an office? | 10:09 |
| @kanzure | perhaps you mean your restroom | 10:09 |
| jrayhawk | I call that the "outbox" | 10:09 |
| foucist | jrayhawk: i think ethics is ultimately supposed to BENEFIT your interests | 10:09 |
| foucist | i mean, good ethics is the ultimate selfish thing to do | 10:09 |
| foucist | :P | 10:10 |
| foucist | in the long term | 10:10 |
| strangewarp | Right, I was a bit suspicious of the throwing of ethics and agency into a dichotomy, there | 10:10 |
| jrayhawk | In whole-economy-optimizing decision-theory terms, yes. Machiavellianism is a much better selfish thing to do for personal-benefit game-theory terms. | 10:10 |
| nmz787 | jrayhawk: i see some press releases mentioning 'HP 2311x' or 'HP 2311xi'... but I can't tell if the i was dropped by the time sales started | 10:11 |
| nmz787 | supposed to be $170 IPS monitors | 10:11 |
| nmz787 | jrayhawk: also seems the cheapest beef at new seasons is $6/lb roast and $9 top sirloin steak, whole foods didn't have any better prices either | 10:13 |
| jrayhawk | You can call up the Orenco Station one and work out when they're getting shipments of the grassfed ground beef in. Also, a lot of their stuff is in the back; they only have so much display room. | 10:14 |
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| jrayhawk | Especially the offal | 10:16 |
| nmz787 | http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824176198&Tpk=2311x | 10:16 |
| nmz787 | that doesn't explicitly say IPS | 10:16 |
| nmz787 | but they dont carry 2311xi | 10:17 |
| nmz787 | but then there's this http://www.amazon.com/2311xi-inch-Diagonal-Backlit-Monitor/dp/B008G32ZTM | 10:17 |
| foucist | nmz787: remind me why ips is best? | 10:18 |
| nmz787 | but it only mentions IPS in the title | 10:18 |
| nmz787 | jrayhawk: remind foucist why IPS is the best | 10:18 |
| foucist | what's the resolution on that monitor anyways? | 10:18 |
| nmz787 | foucist: i think there aren't black lines between the pixel | 10:18 |
| foucist | linus was bitching about laptops not being all retina display by now | 10:18 |
| nmz787 | the crytals in the LCD are oriented in the plane of the screen | 10:18 |
| jrayhawk | IPS has a wide viewing angle and no color distortion. | 10:18 |
| nmz787 | rather than perpendicular | 10:18 |
| foucist | https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/ByVPmsSeSEG | 10:19 |
| jrayhawk | directional color distortion, that is. | 10:19 |
| nmz787 | 23 in 1920x1080 | 10:19 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.google.com/search?q=catleap&tbm=shop is another option if you don't mind doing your own calibration and connector adaptation | 10:20 |
| nmz787 | so does the LCD get PWMed to change color? | 10:20 |
| foucist | now that retina displays are coming out and shit, that's probably the way to go.. don't even accept anything less than 2400x :P | 10:20 |
| nmz787 | jrayhawk: is catleap same as http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-ACHIEVA-Shimian-QH270-Lite-27-LED-Quad-HD-DVI-2560x1440-16-9-6ms-PC-Monitor-/110833856200 | 10:21 |
| jrayhawk | Probably. | 10:21 |
| nmz787 | ahh here, $180 says in plane switching http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009H0XQRS?t=slickdeals&tag=slickdeals | 10:22 |
| nmz787 | looks like it has a decent stand | 10:22 |
| jrayhawk | also http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824236205 $150 | 10:23 |
| nmz787 | yeah but the catleap start at 27" right? | 10:23 |
| nmz787 | oO | 10:23 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah. | 10:23 |
| jrayhawk | Well, actually, they're only at 27" | 10:23 |
| nmz787 | and $350 shipped? | 10:24 |
| jrayhawk | Something like that, yeah. If you happen to like having a boatload of pixels. | 10:24 |
| nmz787 | so TN vs IPS viewed mostly straight on would look comparable? | 10:25 |
| nmz787 | yeah i liked that it was higher than 1080 would be pretty sweet | 10:25 |
| jrayhawk | At precisely the right distance, assuming the panel manufacturer calibrated their planes correctly | 10:25 |
| nmz787 | hmm | 10:25 |
| nmz787 | so i think i'm gonna go with that sceptre 1080p TV, 38.5" I did the math and the space in my living room could fit a 45" 16:9 but there aren't any of that size even used on craigslist in my price range and new enough | 10:26 |
| nmz787 | but keep looking at the IPS stuff for working on | 10:27 |
| jrayhawk | I'm not really a big TV sort of guy, so I don't really have helpful advice. | 10:28 |
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| jrayhawk | It's nice that LCDs are finally starting to compete with CRTs on a price/pixel basis, though. | 10:29 |
| jrayhawk | I just wish the really competitive products were available for the PC market | 10:30 |
| nmz787 | well by TV i mean the monitor in the livingroom where I will watch video or show browse on the couch | 10:30 |
| jrayhawk | re: norsam: Jules like optics; you could try dragging him along. | 10:51 |
| nmz787 | hmm, what's the oftc room? | 10:52 |
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| archels | hrm, what's the tangle of proteins sticking out of the average cell membrane collectively called? | 12:06 |
| archels | I thought it was calyx but now I can't find anything. | 12:07 |
| @kanzure | integral membrane proteins? | 12:07 |
| archels | collectively though | 12:07 |
| @kanzure | no, that's inside the membrane | 12:07 |
| archels | oh, extracellular matrix | 12:08 |
| @kanzure | extracellular matrix is around the cell, it's not necessarily the shit attached to the cell | 12:08 |
| archels | I see | 12:08 |
| @kanzure | it's stuff like collagen and elastin | 12:08 |
| archels | glycocalyx is the word that I was initially looking for | 12:11 |
| archels | I guess that does not fit the definition perfectly either | 12:11 |
| @kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripheral_membrane_protein | 12:12 |
| @kanzure | that's probably inner-bound stuff though | 12:13 |
| nmz787 | well there are junction proteins | 12:22 |
| nmz787 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_adhesion_molecules | 12:22 |
| nmz787 | integrins | 12:22 |
| nmz787 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrins | 12:22 |
| nmz787 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_junctions | 12:22 |
| @kanzure | oh i called it 'integral'. i guess i was close to 'integrins'. sort of. | 12:23 |
| nmz787 | "There have been approximately 40 proteins identified to be involved in tight junctions. These proteins can be classified into four major categories; scaffolding proteins, signalling proteins, regulation proteins, and transmembrane proteins." | 12:23 |
| @kanzure | well, there's probably a name for "all those receptor molecules on the surface of a cell" | 12:24 |
| nmz787 | i think cell surface protein, or 'surface proteome' could be a phrase | 12:24 |
| @kanzure | haha surface proteome.. quick! get an NIH grant written! | 12:24 |
| nmz787 | heh http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpubmed%2F23081703&ei=aMySUOnoGJDMigKn64DoCw&usg=AFQjCNFx1TqZ66hqtj7sEB_6aJgQeHLP5g&sig2=HyOp_D3P9nDtqsf0LXzoHw | 12:24 |
| nmz787 | bah | 12:24 |
| nmz787 | the first google hit for surface proteome is re bull sperm | 12:24 |
| nmz787 | lol | 12:24 |
| nmz787 | thanks archels! | 12:25 |
| archels | always glad to be of service | 12:28 |
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| ParahSai1in | fuck i dont have any primers to order | 13:14 |
| nmz787 | yeah i only want to order genes | 13:15 |
| nmz787 | we could all order a bunch of primers and pool them gibson style | 13:15 |
| ParahSai1in | only 40 base shit though | 13:17 |
| @kanzure | well we could order obscene primers if that would make you guys feel better | 13:17 |
| @kanzure | some sort of DDOS thing. | 13:17 |
| ParahSai1in | have you ever done a gibson reaction with more than two different dna molecules? | 13:17 |
| ParahSai1in | it pretty much makes garbage in my experience | 13:18 |
| nmz787 | i havent, but isnt more than 2 standard? | 13:18 |
| ParahSai1in | you might have one colony that has chunks from all of your molecules | 13:19 |
| ParahSai1in | and it will be jumbled around out of order | 13:19 |
| ParahSai1in | often incomplete | 13:19 |
| ParahSai1in | that would be hell to assemble a gene end to end from 40mers, but i guess at 2 cents per base, thats not terrible | 13:20 |
| nmz787 | you could just do it sequentially | 13:24 |
| nmz787 | with gel's in between checking the length | 13:24 |
| archels | haha there's an IOP journal called "Nonlinearity" | 13:25 |
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| @kanzure | bkero: i saw your question in #ikiwiki .. your best bet is to bug jrayhawk ;) | 14:59 |
| bkero | jrayhawk: Hey | 14:59 |
| jrayhawk | kanzure is everywhere | 14:59 |
| jrayhawk | i suppose i should go look over there | 14:59 |
| @kanzure | well his question was like a week ago | 14:59 |
| jrayhawk | so many windows over | 15:00 |
| @kanzure | 16:54 < bkero> Hi ikiwiki guys. Have a question. Why is the wiki repo post-update hook a binary? | 15:00 |
| @kanzure | damn, that was oct 1 | 15:00 |
| bkero | haha yeah | 15:00 |
| jrayhawk | '10:37 < bdale> if we want to modify a template set, can we store the templates in the same wiki as the content? | 15:01 |
| @kanzure | bkero: diyhpl.us is just a giant ikiwiki farm | 15:01 |
| @kanzure | a highly sophisticated ikiwiki farm, mind you | 15:01 |
| jrayhawk | 10:38 < liw> man ikiwiki indicates "Templates can also be placed in the "templates/" subdirectory of the srcdir." so I assume yes | 15:01 |
| @kanzure | by sophisticated i mean fart | 15:01 |
| jrayhawk | 10:41 < keithp> that's too easy | 15:01 |
| jrayhawk | 10:42 < liw> ikiwiki is not meant to be rocket science *ahem* | 15:01 |
| bkero | Why is the update script a fscking x86 binary | 15:01 |
| jrayhawk | that rocket science thing cracks me up | 15:01 |
| jrayhawk | bkero: For the non-single-user case, it needs to be suid | 15:02 |
| bkero | jrayhawk: that explains it. :( | 15:03 |
| jrayhawk | Ikiwiki is meant to work with group-writable bare repos. | 15:03 |
| bkero | I needed to modify it's behavior a bit | 15:03 |
| bkero | which is hard if it's a binary | 15:03 |
| jrayhawk | By the way, I have a terrifying git+ikiwiki hosting engine if you happen to be interested. http://piny.be/piny-hosting/ | 15:03 |
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| jrayhawk | I'm curious to hear why you want to modify it. | 15:14 |
| jrayhawk | I've dug around a bit with Ikiwiki internals and things are actually pretty flexible. | 15:14 |
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| bkero | paths I think it as | 15:25 |
| bkero | was | 15:25 |
| bkero | I can't remember right now, it was a month ago man, heh. | 15:25 |
| nmz787 | jrayhawk: what do you think about eating chicken skin? | 15:35 |
| jrayhawk | Chicken has a pretty lousy lipid profile, collagen is handy stuff for tissue maintenance | 15:37 |
| jrayhawk | if i were to eat a chicken, i would attempt to eat as much of the connective tissue as I could in order to avoid protein overload | 15:39 |
| jrayhawk | the intestines get real unhappy when calories from protein get in excess of 40%, which is easy to do with chicken | 15:40 |
| nmz787 | ahh, well i'll make sure to balance the protein out with rice and tomato | 15:45 |
| nmz787 | ok, gonna throw away the skin then | 15:45 |
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| jrayhawk | but the collagen :( | 16:06 |
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| jrayhawk | bkero: fwiw all the paths are modifiable with setup-file configuration directives | 16:28 |
| jrayhawk | if you have future ikiwiki problems, feel free to ping me | 16:28 |
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| nmz787 | jrayhawk: connective tissue is protein... so is collagen | 16:34 |
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| jrayhawk | connective tissues (skin, joints) also have a lot of fat, along with having a lot of collagen. | 17:23 |
| nmz787 | but why separate collagen from other protein? | 17:24 |
| jrayhawk | I don't separate it? I eat whle chickens, including organs and neck. | 17:25 |
| jrayhawk | And especially bones. | 17:25 |
| jrayhawk | Chicken bones are nice and easy to cook. | 17:25 |
| jrayhawk | Though it's been a while since I've eaten a chicken. Like I said, lousy lipid profile, problematic macronutrient profile. | 17:26 |
| brownies | what meat animal do you recommend | 17:35 |
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| jrayhawk | pastured ruminant, ocean-caught fish/crustaceans/shellfish | 17:37 |
| ParahSailin | i dont think joints have a lot of fat | 17:49 |
| jrayhawk | They're a big part of collagen matrices. | 17:58 |
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| jrayhawk | Elastic and reticular fibers are pretty fatty, fascia tends to be almost pure protein. | 18:00 |
| AdrianG | how is chicken problematic macronutritionally | 18:10 |
| jrayhawk | 15:40 < jrayhawk> the intestines get real unhappy when calories from protein get in excess of 40%, which is easy to do with chicken | 18:11 |
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| ParahSailin | i havent noticed that at all | 18:17 |
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| jrayhawk | I'm good friends with my bowel movements. We've gotten to know eachother pretty well. | 18:22 |
| foucist | jrayhawk: a bit chunk of chicken breast is about what, 15 grams of protein? | 18:23 |
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| foucist | s/bit/big | 18:23 |
| foucist | a low carb diet isn't supposed to be high protein btw | 18:23 |
| foucist | (if that's why you're going to 40%) | 18:24 |
| jrayhawk | uh... the point is to avoid protein ratios that high | 18:25 |
| jrayhawk | i am advocating for less protein | 18:25 |
| foucist | yeah, the trick is to compensate with extra fat | 18:25 |
| foucist | too much protein? MOAR FAT | 18:26 |
| foucist | unless it's a carb heavy diet | 18:26 |
| jrayhawk | while I do have a five gallon bucket of saturated fat and usually a stockpile of rendered suet, I find it a lot easier to just eat quality foods. | 18:26 |
| foucist | i'm advocating quality fats | 18:26 |
| jrayhawk | chicken is not quality fat. | 18:27 |
| foucist | olive oil, macadamia nut oil, coconut oil | 18:27 |
| AdrianG | is human rendered fat healthy | 18:54 |
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| skorket | kanzure, are you still working on the laser cutter? | 19:47 |
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| @kanzure | skorket: not at the moment | 20:07 |
| skorket | as in right this second or in life? | 20:08 |
| @kanzure | uh that's a hard question to answer | 20:09 |
| @kanzure | not every waking moment is me thinking about it | 20:09 |
| skorket | any progress? | 20:10 |
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| @kanzure | yes! we reached a big milestone the other day when nate finally settled down somewhere. | 20:13 |
| skorket | ah, still in the process of moving | 20:13 |
| skorket | or at least, just stopped that process | 20:13 |
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| nmz787 | jrayhawk: but earlier you specifically mentioned the skin having collagen, but also that protein overload was easy with chicken | 21:37 |
| @kanzure | does anyone have a first/last name word list? | 21:47 |
| @kanzure | preferably with a few thousand entries each | 21:47 |
| ParahSailin | census.gov | 21:51 |
| nmz787 | jrayhawk: well i was just thinking that the ECM would be higher amino acid % wise than muscle, so that would also mean less phosphorous and other stuff... so maybe that's the stuff that you can actually overload on? | 22:15 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Nov 02 00:00:13 2012 | ||
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