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| chris_99 | http://blog.medigr.am/?p=115 tiny little EEG/ECG board | 05:09 |
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| @fenn | i like wireless power for EEG/ECG because it reduces the risk of electrocution, as well as ground loop noise | 11:53 |
| @fenn | oh it's a commercial device.. bummer | 11:53 |
| @fenn | i'm gonna revers engineer that from their photos :P | 11:54 |
| chris_99 | alas it doesn't show the chips | 11:54 |
| ThomasEgi | a wirelessly powered eeg?.. | 11:54 |
| ThomasEgi | as in.. battery+inductive charging? | 11:54 |
| @fenn | "What we’ve enabled is the integration of these large components onto a single microchip, achieving significant improvements in power consumption" | 11:57 |
| @fenn | so perhaps not especially DIY | 11:57 |
| @fenn | really i dont see why eeg or ecg should consume very much power, even with existing amplifiers and transcievers | 11:57 |
| @fenn | "the system doesn’t have a battery. It harvests the sparse radio-frequency energy from a nearby device – in this case, a cell phone. The small smart phone carried by hundreds of millions of people around the world can now provide the energy for important biomedical monitoring" | 11:58 |
| @fenn | that's the extent of the technical description :\ | 11:58 |
| @kanzure | so apparently cwm does window labeling and searching | 12:06 |
| @kanzure | http://kmandla.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/cwm.jpg | 12:06 |
| @kanzure | you just type for what you want instead of tabbing or rotating or workspaces | 12:06 |
| @kanzure | i think this also means you don't need to use tabs in browsers, too | 12:06 |
| @fenn | doesn't that mean you have to have a separate window (and therefore separate process) for each tab? | 12:07 |
| @kanzure | yeah | 12:07 |
| @kanzure | no it's not "therefore separate process", to my knowledge | 12:07 |
| @fenn | not that i think it's a bad thing to use a window manager to manage windows.. | 12:07 |
| @kanzure | when you launch google-chrome multiple times it alerts "Created new window in existing browser session." | 12:08 |
| @kanzure | dunno about firefox, but i imagine it's similar | 12:08 |
| ThomasEgi | fenn, the reason why most amplifier devices require comparebly lots of power is that working with higher currents can lower the noise levels. i doubt an EEG could run off radio-energy-harvesting. even if burned in a single soc | 12:09 |
| chris_99 | EEG deals with low currents though surely | 12:14 |
| chris_99 | even after amping the signal the current could still presumably be low | 12:14 |
| ThomasEgi | usualy. the first stage in the amplifier design is an impedance matcher. and from there on, currents have nothing to do with the inputs anymore. unless your entire amp stage is current based, which is very uncommon. | 12:17 |
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| ThomasEgi | having said that. it is, theoretically possible to build amps based on ridiculsly high impendance input stages. but those are extremly prone to environmental influences. EM crap, temperature, humidity, drifts etc. and then you still didn't gain much. | 12:23 |
| @fenn | i figured responding to "environmental influences" was the goal | 12:25 |
| @fenn | EEG is sensing the electric field coming off the brain, no? | 12:25 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah. but that thing is so sensitive you can get the video signal of a tube-based tv that's 2 rooms next to yours. | 12:26 |
| ThomasEgi | doing nothing but having the input pin floating. no antenna, no nothing. | 12:26 |
| ThomasEgi | picks up everything. walk across the room, watch the effects of your body changing the electrical field in the room. | 12:27 |
| @fenn | okay so have two amplifiers, one acting as the control | 12:28 |
| ThomasEgi | hehe. no chance. the only way you can get meaningful results is to do full copper shielding. massive shielding. | 12:28 |
| @fenn | why can't you do differential measurement? | 12:28 |
| ThomasEgi | well you can, if you have a reference. | 12:29 |
| ThomasEgi | not sure how it would hold up for eeg stuff. i mainly designed it for microphones. it does perform fairly well at very low frequencies. | 12:30 |
| ThomasEgi | i can test it. i should receive the parts for building it rather soon | 12:32 |
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| @fenn | well anyway, easier for me to just use a battery in the meanwhile | 12:34 |
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| ThomasEgi | you'll need that anyway :) | 12:39 |
| ThomasEgi | the more energy you have available. the easier the design for the electronic | 12:39 |
| @fenn | the wireless eeg thing reminds me of the smart dust from the book "deepness in the sky" | 12:43 |
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| juri_ | thomas: our hackerspace is building EEGs. we're trying to nullify outside signal sources, by referencing the leg of the patient. | 13:53 |
| @kanzure | i don't understand why eegs are hyped so much | 13:54 |
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| @fenn | juri_: but that uses a common ground point, right? you're not doing two completely separate measurements (from two pairs of points) | 13:57 |
| @fenn | it's not really "wireless" if you need a wire going from your head to your leg | 13:57 |
| @fenn | btw who's doing that project? | 13:59 |
| juri_ | we're shooting for 'battery powered.' | 13:59 |
| juri_ | http://mirage335.dyndns.org/wiki/Mirage335BiosignalAmp | 13:59 |
| juri_ | hacDC is building at least three of them | 13:59 |
| @fenn | cool. i'm definitely interested in all three use cases (eeg/ekg/emg) | 14:00 |
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| juri_ | we have a very active, if eclectic biohacking group. | 14:25 |
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| @fenn | how come there was so much noise about 11-11-11 but nothing about 12-12-12? | 14:48 |
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| Mariu | what was the noise about 11-11-11 ? | 14:49 |
| @fenn | there were parades and parties and so on. maybe i'm just out of the loop now | 14:49 |
| Mariu | :p | 14:49 |
| @kanzure | you don't live with twenty people now | 14:49 |
| Mariu | lol | 14:49 |
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| @kanzure | ugh :( | 15:43 |
| @kanzure | http://www.kurzweilai.net/kurzweil-joins-google-to-work-on-new-projects-involving-machine-learning-and-language-processing | 15:43 |
| @kanzure | director.. of engineering? | 15:44 |
| @fenn | i really hope i'm reading that wrong | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | peter norvig could totally murder ray in a caged match | 15:46 |
| @kanzure | ah pete is only "director of research".. dafuq | 15:46 |
| @kanzure | http://norvig.com/ | 15:46 |
| @fenn | engineering is like ... making sure their server farms are reliable and performance scales | 15:47 |
| @kanzure | life is so confusing | 15:48 |
| @fenn | maybe he will invent the second generation of fuck-up-my-search-query technology | 15:48 |
| @fenn | google masturbatim | 15:49 |
| @kanzure | no, he'll fuck up google glass | 15:49 |
| @fenn | yeah that's a reasonable interpretation | 15:49 |
| @fenn | i never had high hopes for google glass anyway | 15:50 |
| @fenn | best result is something like what happened with phones | 15:50 |
| @kanzure | android turned out okay (in the scheme of things) | 15:50 |
| @fenn | they still really let the whole open source part down | 15:50 |
| @fenn | there's way more incompatibility in the android realm than there ought to be | 15:51 |
| @kanzure | because they do a bulk merge instead of incremental merges? | 15:51 |
| @kanzure | oh, that, yes | 15:51 |
| @fenn | proprietary drivers, "locked" phones etc | 15:51 |
| @fenn | why the fuck would you have to "root" an open source phone? it makes no sense | 15:51 |
| @kanzure | you don't-- all of google's phones have a boot loader now that lets you boot into saner things | 15:52 |
| @fenn | from what i understand, stock android is pretty reasonable (disabled ad-hoc wireless not withstanding) | 15:53 |
| @kanzure | also, the rooting is because of carriers. they are afraid of phone users. | 15:53 |
| @fenn | how is it even possible though? | 15:53 |
| @fenn | sometimes the law is just beyond me | 15:54 |
| @kanzure | the carriers probably disable root or give it an obscure password | 15:54 |
| @fenn | i read that there's a DMCA circumvention exception for phones, but not for tablets or other devices that don't make phone calls | 15:57 |
| @fenn | but the courts go back and forth on whether you are or arent allowed to root some particular device.. to the point where you can't predict what you will be allowed to do in two years' time | 15:58 |
| @fenn | anyway i'm just ranting, plz ignore | 15:58 |
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| @kanzure | man it's weird seeing people defend ray | 16:30 |
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| @kanzure | http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4923914 | 16:31 |
| nmz787 | hi | 16:42 |
| nmz787 | i am actually looking for a new ROM for my android phone | 16:42 |
| nmz787 | because skype doesnt seem to work, and with a 720P camera on the back, and a VGA cam on the front, why do I not make as many video calls as possible???? | 16:43 |
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| nmz787 | some of those 'proprietary' drivers are my suspicion for why skype is being a pain | 16:43 |
| @kanzure | cyanogenmod tends to be okay | 16:43 |
| brownies | i had CM on my 'droid. it was solidly okay. | 16:44 |
| brownies | occasionally it would hard-reboot the phone while i was using it, but that may have been my obscure/old hardware. | 16:44 |
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| nmz787 | yeah I'm on CM6 now because its the last CM that they hacked the proprietary driver from or something | 16:49 |
| nmz787 | so 720P works in the video cam mode | 16:49 |
| @fenn | haha "creationism for people with an IQ over 140" | 16:54 |
| @fenn | i wonder why anyone would buy a plain SD card instead of a microSD with adapter | 17:02 |
| @kanzure | you know, maybe my iq isn't over 140 and that's why i think ray's full of it | 17:03 |
| @fenn | almost nobody has an IQ over 140, so that doesn't explain anything, sorry | 17:04 |
| @kanzure | damn. | 17:06 |
| @fenn | huh maybe i'm wrong about that. there are ~1.4 million americans over IQ 140? | 17:06 |
| @fenn | (by definition) | 17:09 |
| juri_ | there's quite a backlash against anyone who says they have a higher IQ. | 17:09 |
| @kanzure | duh | 17:09 |
| nmz787 | did you just move the decimal fenn? | 17:09 |
| juri_ | especially since IQ is in no way correlated to success in life. | 17:10 |
| juri_ | (however one defines success) | 17:10 |
| nmz787 | that would mean there are 300 million americans with an IQ off 30000 | 17:11 |
| @kanzure | juri_: iq is really uninteresting in here, because people conflate it with whatever super powers the human brain has | 17:11 |
| @fenn | nmz787: no i consulted a standard deviation vs percentile chart | 17:11 |
| nmz787 | :D | 17:11 |
| juri_ | kanzure: makes sense. | 17:11 |
| @kanzure | fenn: so, maybe it's a good thing. of all the places to give him a reality check, google might be it. | 17:11 |
| @kanzure | "no, file systems can't do that you jerk" | 17:11 |
| @kanzure | and "no, our ocr is better" | 17:11 |
| @fenn | hmm. | 17:12 |
| @fenn | tesseract leaves a lot to be desired | 17:12 |
| @kanzure | no i mean the one they actually use | 17:12 |
| @fenn | i think they use tesseract | 17:12 |
| @kanzure | pretty sure they aren't using default tessera-- oh | 17:12 |
| @kanzure | well maybe they are just better at using it than i am. | 17:12 |
| @fenn | it's probably just really fiddly, and since they display images of the books (ocr text is only used for searching) nobody notices the amazingly high prevalence of errors | 17:13 |
| @fenn | i mean it might work okay if you have perfect input | 17:13 |
| @fenn | and it needs all kinds of support programs like unpaper and dewarping/deskewing that really should be integrated | 17:14 |
| @kanzure | the thing is, it's really easy to test those things | 17:14 |
| @fenn | to test what? | 17:14 |
| @kanzure | generate random unicode data -> print it out -> run it through the ocr machine | 17:14 |
| @fenn | print it with a printer? | 17:14 |
| @kanzure | (unless you can generate the same artifacts without printing it) | 17:14 |
| @kanzure | either way. i don't care. | 17:15 |
| @kanzure | "this generator produces images that look like poorly scanned books" | 17:15 |
| @fenn | well two things; books are printed in various fonts and formats, and there are better and worse ways to scan books | 17:15 |
| @kanzure | also- you can scan multiple pageso f the same book and collect data on similar artifacts | 17:16 |
| @fenn | tesseract seems to have been designed or tuned to work only with perfectly scanned books | 17:16 |
| @kanzure | (or whatever awful font they were using) | 17:16 |
| @fenn | yeah i know that's possible, i just dont know how to do it | 17:16 |
| @kanzure | steeevee | 17:16 |
| @kanzure | where is steve when you need him? | 17:16 |
| @fenn | you have to manually go through and build up libraries of individual "glyphs" | 17:16 |
| jrayhawk | "Apparently, ATLAS used this last month to search for the systematic errors that might be responsible for the discrepancy but, having found nothing, they decided to go public." | 17:16 |
| jrayhawk | It looks like ATLAS... *puts on sunglasses* shrugged. YEEEEAAAAHHH!!!!!! | 17:16 |
| @fenn | your rabid randism won't save you from death | 17:17 |
| @kanzure | wrong rayhawk | 17:17 |
| @kanzure | i wanted the other one | 17:17 |
| @fenn | i thought they were the same person :P | 17:18 |
| @fenn | (no not really) | 17:18 |
| @kanzure | joe can't you just go sneak into his room and type /join on his machine | 17:18 |
| @kanzure | worked with sauri k | 17:18 |
| jrayhawk | i actually have direct control of his irc client from here | 17:18 |
| @kanzure | excellent work | 17:18 |
| @fenn | does steve have OCR expertise? | 17:18 |
| @kanzure | probably not, but he probably also has experience in something that is ocr but not called oc | 17:20 |
| @kanzure | *ocr | 17:20 |
| @fenn | er, what? | 17:20 |
| juri_ | I'm actually the maintainer of GNU GIFT. | 17:21 |
| juri_ | i do form recognition, including stamp recognition. | 17:21 |
| @kanzure | fenn: lots of pattern recognition stuff | 17:21 |
| @kanzure | fenn: and accounting for obscure edge cases | 17:21 |
| juri_ | my online demo sucks. i really should work on it. | 17:21 |
| @kanzure | http://www.technologyreview.com/view/508896/what-google-sees-in-new-hire-futurist-ray-kurzweil/ | 17:24 |
| @kanzure | peter norvig picked him ? | 17:25 |
| @fenn | that seems to be the implication | 17:26 |
| @fenn | juri_: old gqview has a 'find duplicate files' mode that will group images in a folder by similarity.. is there anything like that for gift? | 17:29 |
| juri_ | that's kindof what gift does. | 17:29 |
| juri_ | that would be 'doing a search for each image by each image. | 17:29 |
| @fenn | this redirect to 'mrml clients' is sorta confusing for a new user | 17:30 |
| @fenn | like, what is mrml? | 17:30 |
| juri_ | just have fun with the online demo. ;) | 17:30 |
| juri_ | its a bad idea of a image query language. | 17:30 |
| juri_ | there's lots about that software i need to change, to really bring out its potential. | 17:31 |
| juri_ | i've more of just been focused on using it practically. | 17:31 |
| juri_ | my next project is to use 3d gabor filtering with multiple cameras to do 3d microscopy. | 17:32 |
| juri_ | i'm trying to improve/document the concept of a 'cell printer'. | 17:33 |
| @fenn | what are the cameras for? | 17:33 |
| @fenn | you know about flow cytometry right? | 17:34 |
| juri_ | never heard of it. | 17:34 |
| @fenn | oh, it's pretty neat | 17:34 |
| juri_ | they're there for ultra-precise positioning control. | 17:34 |
| juri_ | i want to safely pick up and deposit cells. | 17:34 |
| juri_ | to do that, i need to know exactly where my picker is, and where the target is. 2d won't do it. | 17:35 |
| @fenn | you spray a stream of droplets past two capacitive deflector plates; on average each droplet contains 0 or 1 cells, if the cell is there and of the correct type (it's glowing because you stained the correct type of cell with a fluorescent tag) the droplet gets deflected to one place, otherwise to a different place | 17:35 |
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| juri_ | ah yess, someone was telling me about that the other day. | 17:36 |
| @fenn | you can realistically do 2-3 tags at a time | 17:36 |
| @fenn | i think it works for single molecules, with a fancy enough camera | 17:36 |
| juri_ | me being myself, i go with nothing fancy. its all stuff i 3d print, or parts of computers/printers. ;) | 17:37 |
| @fenn | you can use a photodiode if there's enough tag in the droplet | 17:37 |
| @fenn | i really dont know why they're so expensive | 17:38 |
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| yashgaroth | oh dear | 17:39 |
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| kanzure_ | wtf | 17:54 |
| yashgaroth | indeed | 17:54 |
| @fenn | would be fun to play with this similarity data as an elastic graph of icons | 17:54 |
| @fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/gqview_duplicate_files.png http://fennetic.net/irc/gqview_duplicate_files2.png | 17:58 |
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| @fenn | juri_: images tagged cc-sa on flickr might make for a less wonky demo | 18:08 |
| juri_ | fenn: the real enemy of my demo is transparency. | 18:08 |
| @fenn | or wikimedia | 18:08 |
| @fenn | you mean alpha channel? | 18:08 |
| juri_ | yepyep. the software isnt built to handle it. | 18:09 |
| @fenn | man sourceforge makes it so hard to download repositories | 18:10 |
| kanzure_ | someone should make a sourceforge site that makes things not suck, and just redirect the important stuff to sourceforge. | 18:11 |
| kanzure_ | you could just http 302 to the actual download url | 18:12 |
| @fenn | there is no "actual download url" | 18:12 |
| kanzure_ | http://project.lessawfulsourceforge.com/download/latest | 18:12 |
| @fenn | i'm figuring out how to use git-cvs again | 18:12 |
| kanzure_ | whoever does that will be the hero of the world | 18:12 |
| jrayhawk | ha ha man it'd be funny to scrape and deploy the entirity of sourceforge | 18:14 |
| jrayhawk | i guess i am not that far off with piny | 18:14 |
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| kanzure_ | maybe we could scrape sourceforge and then get everyone to block sourceforge by dns | 18:15 |
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| @fenn | oh good rsync works | 18:19 |
| @fenn | rsync -av rsync://PROJECTNAME.cvs.sourceforge.net/cvsroot/PROJECTNAME/* . | 18:19 |
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| Thorbinator1 | http://arstechnica.com/business/2012/12/ray-kurzweil-the-singularity-guy-joins-google/ | 18:25 |
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| kanzure_ | "There is a common delusion that if you pretend to be 'professional' with enough sincerity, wear the suit and go through all the executive ritual motions, are always positive in attitude, and never--ever--complain, then money will happen." | 18:42 |
| kanzure_ | well, at least eric's honest about luf | 18:42 |
| kanzure_ | "he very hard reality is this; right now there is more talent, practical skill, creativity, and vitality among the Bronies than there is among the entire global space advocacy community. The empirical proof of that is seen all over the Internet. They do stuff!" | 18:43 |
| kanzure_ | brownies: yo dawg, he's mentioning your next of kin. | 18:43 |
| brownies | uh. what the fuck? | 18:43 |
| kanzure_ | brownies: https://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/browse_thread/thread/49873e1065ef012f | 18:47 |
| brownies | what's the LUF? | 18:51 |
| brownies | i see. | 18:51 |
| brownies | well, that message is just far too long. | 18:52 |
| kanzure_ | "Since I first joined the FMF--now going toward twenty years ago--I have been continuously generating and proposing project ideas for this group, always seeking things that were more accessible in terms of cost and skills. I always knew the demographics of space enthusiasts was weak, but I long believed that, in a community so international and large, there had to be some latent reserve of practical skills waiting for the right project to draw it | 18:52 |
| kanzure_ | "So that's what I tried to do. And I didn't just float trial balloons. Despite not being the most healthy person or personally having much resources, I have tried to get things to critical mass on my own, but it's really slow-going alone. Right now I have about a dozen pans on the stove, and I have seen little to no help on offer for them. I can't blame people for that." | 18:52 |
| kanzure_ | "The skills and means just aren't there. I've now hit bottom. I am now routinely proposing project ideas in this forum on the level of hobby, craft, and DIY home improvement and that's still too difficult for you people. If our community can't handle activity on the level of scout troop crafts, what the hell can we realistically ever hope to accomplish?" | 18:52 |
| kanzure_ | "... And one of the problems with that is that these poor sods routinely bite off more than they can chew because they foolishly think getting the ball rolling will inspire the rest of you to help carry things through. Nope." | 18:53 |
| brownies | i see. | 18:53 |
| AdrianG | i dont get it | 18:53 |
| AdrianG | what is this chat about | 18:53 |
| brownies | well, these are reasonable points. and generally a common problem with volunteer organizations... especially organizations that have lofty poorly-defined goals | 18:53 |
| AdrianG | liek transhuman | 18:53 |
| AdrianG | or human+ | 18:54 |
| kanzure_ | "There already is an open source space movement, but it has almost no connection to the space advocacy community. How many people in this forum have ever heard of Open Luna?" | 18:54 |
| kanzure_ | openluna is a lame reference. how about copenhagen suborbitals. | 18:54 |
| kanzure_ | AdrianG: humanityplus, if that's what you mean, is not a technical organization. but it tries to lie about this because it wants to be inculded. | 18:54 |
| kanzure_ | *included | 18:54 |
| AdrianG | oic | 18:55 |
| AdrianG | so r u like about pilz and implantz | 18:55 |
| AdrianG | and nanobotz itstead of blood cells. | 18:56 |
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| brownies | jesus fuck what is wrong with your brain that you must always type like a retard | 18:57 |
| AdrianG | sry its OCD | 18:57 |
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| @kanzure | no go away | 18:58 |
| @fenn | for teh lulz | 18:58 |
| AdrianG | :< | 18:58 |
| brownies | kanzure: are you still hanging out with h+ at all? | 18:58 |
| @kanzure | i occassionally chat up some of the people that associate themselves with that organization, yeah | 19:02 |
| AdrianG | what is copenhagen suborbitals? | 19:04 |
| @kanzure | a group of aliens displaced from the future attempting to not die in misery | 19:07 |
| @kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_Suborbitals | 19:07 |
| @kanzure | "Copenhagen Suborbitals is a non-profit organization based in Denmark's capital, Copenhagen. The organization's main goal is to develop relatively inexpensive forms of suborbital manned spaceflight outside of government programs and the influence of large, for-profit corporations. " | 19:07 |
| @kanzure | "Copenhagen Suborbitals has also focused on the promotion of an open source working environment." | 19:07 |
| AdrianG | they have a snazzy seal. | 19:08 |
| @kanzure | http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3005279&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=2 | 19:08 |
| @kanzure | http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3271649&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1 | 19:08 |
| jrayhawk | registered users only | 19:08 |
| jrayhawk | actually archive users only, even | 19:09 |
| @kanzure | well, just imagine usual SA awesomeness | 19:09 |
| jrayhawk | it was GBS; less acculturated | 19:09 |
| @kanzure | fenn: why don't you go with live with those guys for a while and learn you some danish | 19:10 |
| @kanzure | probably more functional than tractor-e-farm | 19:10 |
| @fenn | heh | 19:20 |
| @fenn | not a bad idea actually | 19:20 |
| @fenn | i wish i could get excited about rockets | 19:21 |
| @fenn | (chemical rockets that is) | 19:21 |
| @fenn | unfortunately nothing much has changed in the last 50 years | 19:21 |
| * heath tickles fenn | 19:22 | |
| heath | that working? | 19:22 |
| @fenn | gah | 19:22 |
| @fenn | where did you come from | 19:22 |
| heath | alabamar? | 19:22 |
| @fenn | i saw some space stuff there, i think | 19:23 |
| heath | in hsv? | 19:23 |
| heath | makes sense | 19:23 |
| @fenn | at a rest stop on i-10 | 19:23 |
| @fenn | :P | 19:23 |
| heath | it's where we stashed the german engineers so we could make it to the moon | 19:23 |
| heath | heh | 19:23 |
| @fenn | what's GBS? | 19:24 |
| heath | game boy system | 19:24 |
| heath | i dunno | 19:24 |
| jrayhawk | GPS is new and fairly integral to modern rocketry, and components and manufacturing are a lot cheaper and more accurate than they used to be | 19:27 |
| jrayhawk | tripropellant setups are still largely untested | 19:28 |
| jrayhawk | aerospikes are still largely untested | 19:28 |
| heath | jrayhawk: gbs, not gps?... | 19:29 |
| heath | also hi jrayhawk | 19:29 |
| @fenn | does GPS even work without some crazy mil-spec receiver? | 19:30 |
| heath | fenn: what were you doing near these parts without calling me huh? | 19:30 |
| heath | huh? | 19:30 |
| @fenn | consumer GPS is required to shut down above mach 1 or somesuch | 19:30 |
| @fenn | heath: driving as fast as i could to get the hell out of there | 19:30 |
| heath | we got a neat little robot roaming our offices with 4 gps sensors :D | 19:30 |
| heath | and fuckton of python code | 19:30 |
| heath | fenn: lul | 19:31 |
| @fenn | jrayhawk: none of these things change the scale of operations significantly | 19:31 |
| jrayhawk | the only limitation on GPS is that the unencrypted signals have a lot of dithering | 19:31 |
| heath | we've got bna, bhm, atl, and bna(nashville), but not much outside of that :) | 19:31 |
| @fenn | or the operational envelope | 19:31 |
| @fenn | jrayhawk: i thought they turned that off in the late 90's | 19:32 |
| @fenn | now encrypted and unencrypted is the same | 19:32 |
| heath | oh, and rocks to fall of | 19:32 |
| @fenn | anyway there's GLONASS | 19:32 |
| jrayhawk | operational envelope is defined by the amount of fuel you have, which is, all things considered, a tiny cost | 19:32 |
| @fenn | i disagree | 19:33 |
| heath | http://jsperf.com/ternary-statements-versus-lookup-tables | 19:33 |
| @fenn | when the minimum viable rocket to orbit is thousands of pounds of wasted junk.. it's all just money down the drain | 19:33 |
| heath | anyone disagree with the use of ternaries like this? | 19:34 |
| @fenn | ternary statements are bullshit | 19:34 |
| * heath needs to write a blog post on using sweet.js to improve code like thsi | 19:34 | |
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| @fenn | use a hash/dict whatever the fuck it's called in js | 19:34 |
| @fenn | god damn how many times do i have to say it | 19:35 |
| heath | object | 19:35 |
| @fenn | doesn't js have map()? | 19:35 |
| @kanzure | heath: fenn would not like your office, sorry to disappoint | 19:35 |
| @kanzure | fenn: yes, but only when you use underscore | 19:35 |
| heath | fenn: yerp | 19:35 |
| heath | [].map(function(... | 19:35 |
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| @kanzure | that too. but underscore makes things pleasant. | 19:35 |
| heath | tis true | 19:36 |
| @fenn | so your_object.map(operator,num) | 19:36 |
| heath | it's a gov project, can't use underscore for this particular project :| | 19:36 |
| @fenn | no need for any code beyond that | 19:36 |
| @fenn | i hope you're joking | 19:36 |
| heath | eh, i'm not | 19:36 |
| @fenn | is camel case federally mandated now? wtf | 19:36 |
| @fenn | and people wonder why all the killing sprees | 19:37 |
| heath | lol | 19:37 |
| heath | i'm talking about the lib | 19:37 |
| heath | underscorejs.org | 19:37 |
| heath | we used it on the prototype | 19:37 |
| heath | that along with node.js, stitch, express, coffeescript,er...and backbone | 19:37 |
| heath | and mocha | 19:37 |
| heath | it was hipster's dream | 19:37 |
| @fenn | oh, so there is no map | 19:38 |
| heath | there is a map in es5.1 | 19:38 |
| @fenn | i would just copy it from underscore then | 19:38 |
| heath | iit's available | 19:38 |
| @fenn | um.. then why did you mention underscore? | 19:39 |
| heath | [1,2,3].map(function(num) { return num * 2}) | 19:39 |
| heath | because kanzure mentioned it | 19:39 |
| juri_ | some consumer GPS gear can be rigged to forget those limits. | 19:40 |
| @kanzure | i was wrong. also there's byte arrays now. | 19:40 |
| juri_ | i have four receivers that do not respect that crud. | 19:40 |
| heath | and typed arrays via intel's work | 19:41 |
| @fenn | how do oyou call map from js? i don't see it in chrome's console | 19:41 |
| heath | [21:39:17] <heath> [1,2,3].map(function(num) { return num * 2}) | 19:41 |
| @fenn | it only works on lists? | 19:42 |
| heath | yeah | 19:42 |
| @fenn | okay i'm feeling dumb now | 19:42 |
| heath | eh | 19:42 |
| heath | don't? | 19:42 |
| heath | you work in a diff environment | 19:42 |
| @kanzure | one that doesn't drive you crazy | 19:43 |
| @kanzure | one that doesn't involve endless flamewars on semicolons and whether coffeescript is useful | 19:43 |
| @kanzure | one that doesn't have a billion modularization "standards" | 19:43 |
| @fenn | well, i mean i'm literally feeling not up to thinking about programming stuff right now | 19:43 |
| * heath didn't realize his text editor had flamewars on semicolons | 19:47 | |
| * heath investigates | 19:47 | |
| @fenn | i'm trying to translate your ternary statement to python | 19:50 |
| @fenn | but it doesnt use map at all, so i dont know what i was thinking | 19:50 |
| @fenn | foo={'add': lambda x,y: x+y, 'subtract': lambda x,y: x-y} | 19:51 |
| @fenn | foo['subtract'](1,2) | 19:51 |
| @fenn | compute=lambda operation,x,y: foo[operation](x,y) | 19:52 |
| heath | it's just a lookup table | 19:53 |
| @fenn | also in the example i think subtract would always return 0 (since val is the same as val) | 19:53 |
| heath | map is probably appropriate | 19:53 |
| heath | i'll play around with it when i get through this dojo dnd stuff | 19:53 |
| heath | nice observation | 19:54 |
| heath | i was kind of curious which was faster, 1% doesn't seem too big of a deal | 19:54 |
| heath | and most people can read the lookup tables example a lot easier | 19:54 |
| @fenn | yeah ternary is despised for its (un)readability | 19:54 |
| heath | oh you're translating the ternary example, er, yeah, not a lookup table | 19:55 |
| heath | yeah | 19:55 |
| heath | everyone scratched their heads on that one | 19:55 |
| heath | i like it because it's like a switch statement without the accidental fallthrough | 19:55 |
| heath | by not inlcuding break; | 19:55 |
| heath | ..which is common | 19:55 |
| * heath needs a 5th of monitor :'( | 19:56 | |
| heath | s/of// | 19:57 |
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| @fenn | no i just didnt understand what you were trying to do, i get it now | 19:58 |
| heath | fenn: what are you up to these days? | 20:02 |
| heath | i haven't really kept tabs on everyone | 20:02 |
| heath | still in sf? | 20:03 |
| @fenn | no, i went to NM to build a house, but that didn't happen. now i'm in DC feeling sorry for myself | 20:04 |
| heath | heheh | 20:04 |
| heath | i found an acre plot for $2k | 20:04 |
| heath | thinking about it | 20:04 |
| @fenn | digging through old projects and trying to sort out my life and maybe even do something useful | 20:04 |
| heath | won't have to worry about zoning laws and it's only 15 mins from downtown | 20:04 |
| @fenn | make sure your neighbors aren't paranoid psychopaths | 20:05 |
| @fenn | everything else is just engineering :P | 20:05 |
| heath | heh | 20:05 |
| juri_ | fenn: in DC, eh? want to help build a cell printer? ;) | 20:06 |
| @fenn | juri_: maybe. i'm not convinced it's the right thing to do first | 20:06 |
| heath | so... google hired kurzweil... | 20:06 |
| juri_ | well, don't look at me to convince you. i'm just a crazy printer-person, doing what i know. | 20:07 |
| @kanzure | heath: check the logs. | 20:07 |
| @fenn | juri_: why are you building a cell printer? | 20:07 |
| @kanzure | juri_: yes but if you practice applied crazyness, you can be more effective. | 20:07 |
| juri_ | because someone else in DIYBIO tried, and did a horrible job of it. | 20:07 |
| @kanzure | instead of choosing random projects | 20:07 |
| juri_ | obviously, they thought there was a use for it. | 20:08 |
| @kanzure | jmil's cell printer is pretty good, dunno what you're smoking | 20:08 |
| @kanzure | jmil: ping.. oh he's gone. | 20:08 |
| @fenn | "someone in DIYBIO tried it" isn't a valid reason | 20:08 |
| juri_ | really? have you tried reading the documentation? WHAT documentation? | 20:08 |
| @kanzure | his documentation is reprap.org's | 20:08 |
| juri_ | i must be epicly missing it, then. | 20:09 |
| @fenn | is this the one where they stretch sugar (pla?) out into vasculature, and then apply magic | 20:09 |
| juri_ | i'd like links, if you could provide them. | 20:09 |
| juri_ | I don't think so. | 20:09 |
| @kanzure | you're avoiding the reason question | 20:10 |
| @fenn | (expanding on apply magic) a gel of some sort surrounds the vasculature frame and dissolves it, leaving the negative space, which cells then colonize | 20:10 |
| @fenn | maybe she's missing a spleen, or some other blob shaped organ | 20:11 |
| juri_ | http://diybio.org/2012/06/12/gaudilabalgaepicker/ | 20:11 |
| juri_ | i do have a reason.. and its very 'driving'. | 20:11 |
| @kanzure | biocurious has a cell printer group but they don't publish anything because they are assholes | 20:12 |
| juri_ | my father is currently dieing of kidney failure. | 20:12 |
| @kanzure | ah | 20:12 |
| juri_ | I'm hypoglycemic, and will probably be diabetic.. so i might even end up down the same path. | 20:12 |
| juri_ | now, he has years to live.. but they're not good years. | 20:13 |
| juri_ | i'm not under the illusion that i'll have revolutionized the world by then or anything.. | 20:13 |
| @kanzure | nobody claimed you were under that illusion | 20:13 |
| @kanzure | wtf | 20:13 |
| juri_ | but i switched careers from banking (specializing in image recognition) to electronic medical records systems, to try and drive down the cost of healthcare. | 20:14 |
| juri_ | i've managed to do something about it. every patch is a victory. | 20:14 |
| @kanzure | you could just move to a country with cheaper healthcare | 20:14 |
| @kanzure | or you can even pay for shady black market healthcare | 20:14 |
| juri_ | I'd like to take a more active role in pushing technology forward in medicine. | 20:15 |
| juri_ | and as usual, i'm not interested in something expensive for the few. 100% free software, distributed on the internet all the way. | 20:15 |
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| juri_ | sorry. you got me into rant mode. its a Big Deal. i'm tired of the people i care about dieing. | 20:16 |
| @kanzure | wrldpc: welcome back. you off deployment? | 20:16 |
| wrldpc | Kanzure!! :D | 20:16 |
| wrldpc | I'm still in Japan. I've been wanting to link up with Amadeus and see if he knows of anything cool happening but I'm so far south of any major metropolitan area, and given our current liberty restrictions, its made it difficult to do so. | 20:17 |
| wrldpc | Kurzweil is now Director of Engineering for Google? That struck me as interesting. | 20:17 |
| @kanzure | wrldpc: you should also get in touch with Hiroo Komine <qjp.8.qjp@gmail.com> and Michael Turner <michael.eugene.turner@gmail.com> | 20:17 |
| @fenn | woah cool i totally want this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:40%22_Mild_Hyperbaric_Chamberexternal.jpg | 20:17 |
| heath | http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/paleofuture/2012/12/fun-places-on-the-internet-in-1995/ | 20:18 |
| heath | no.. no i don't feel old | 20:18 |
| heath | https://twitter.com/SmithsonianMag/status/279782996108771329 | 20:18 |
| heath | "Burning off parts of the brain can help with severe addiction. http://ow.ly/g6HJy " | 20:19 |
| heath | hah | 20:19 |
| heath | love these catching titles | 20:19 |
| heath | 'cept this is a thing... | 20:19 |
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| @fenn | gah this guy just won't get off my screen | 20:24 |
| @fenn | "Another critic of the ADA [diabetes diet] program is futurologist and transhumanist Ray Kurzweil, who together with Dr Terry Grossman .." blah blah blah | 20:24 |
| @kanzure | pretty awful huh | 20:25 |
| heath | seattle has weed and gigabit internet | 20:25 |
| heath | http://instagram.com/p/TM-AfbhsU_/ | 20:25 |
| heath | heh | 20:25 |
| heath | the guy who built that, works here.., was on the phone with them explaining how to put that together | 20:26 |
| heath | apparently it took them awhile :) | 20:26 |
| @kanzure | can you describe your links please | 20:26 |
| @kanzure | status/2797whatever isn't descriptive | 20:26 |
| @kanzure | and TM-AfbhSU isn't either | 20:26 |
| heath | make magazine girl riding around on a segbot | 20:26 |
| wrldpc | transfer rates in the states are criminal. | 20:27 |
| @kanzure | /fun-places-on-the-internet-in-1995/ was reasonable descriptive | 20:27 |
| @kanzure | *reasonably | 20:27 |
| wrldpc | Even on base we get price gouged for shit service … you step off base and you pay 1/3 the price for 4 times the speed. | 20:27 |
| heath | http://instagram.com/makemagazine | 20:27 |
| @kanzure | heath: i'm worried about your health | 20:27 |
| @kanzure | you're chewing javascript and linking to instagram and twitter | 20:27 |
| heath | heh | 20:28 |
| heath | you definitely should be worried sir | 20:28 |
| * heath needs a better way to link content.. | 20:29 | |
| juri_ | kanzure: any opinion on that 'printer' i linked to? | 20:29 |
| @fenn | i think you're supposed to skeptically raise eyebrows | 20:30 |
| @fenn | juri_: what is it supposed to do exactly? | 20:30 |
| @kanzure | juri_: if it's not documented, you should assume it doesn't exist | 20:30 |
| @kanzure | even if there's a pretty pic. | 20:30 |
| juri_ | pick up cell A, and drop in position B. | 20:30 |
| @fenn | but why would you do that? | 20:30 |
| juri_ | kanzure: nods. thats why i've started from scratch. | 20:30 |
| @kanzure | that's not how cell printers work | 20:30 |
| juri_ | yea, picking up cells, while a neat trick, doesn't seem very efficient when you can get them in solution. | 20:31 |
| @fenn | (fwiw "cell printers" i know of are essentially inkjets that shoot some sort of gel matrix that is seeded with stem cells) | 20:31 |
| @fenn | or progenitor cells | 20:32 |
| @fenn | now that would be useful, and not just for bio hacking | 20:32 |
| @fenn | mumble jeff something wax printer http://ourduino.wordpress.com/2011/01/11/printing-wax-onto-pcbs-simple-quick-diy-pcbs/ | 20:33 |
| @kanzure | also, in a practical sense, you could probably get a dialysis machine working more quickly | 20:34 |
| @fenn | high resolution 3d solids in any subtrate would be useful | 20:34 |
| @fenn | yeah what's up with dialysis.. why are the machines so big and klunky | 20:34 |
| @fenn | a kidney does it in a volume the size of a kidney | 20:34 |
| @fenn | a portable unit can have lower performance since you wear it for longer | 20:36 |
| @kanzure | size don't matter if you got no working kidneys left | 20:36 |
| @fenn | anyway it doesn't fix the root cause, which is poor diet | 20:36 |
| @fenn | it's much more fun to think about designing machines than to think about .. evolution, and not eating bread or 90% of the stuff in the grocery store | 20:37 |
| @kanzure | go buy a dialysis machine on ebay, get it to work and make sure your dad doesn't fucking die | 20:37 |
| @kanzure | a cell printer is neat and useful, but probably not in time to matter | 20:37 |
| @kanzure | oh hey they are pretty cheap. <$5k. | 20:40 |
| @kanzure | http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=dialysis+machine+&_sacat=0&_from=R40 | 20:40 |
| @fenn | this would be great if i could read the fucking text!!! http://bigdandme.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/hello-%E2%80%98wearable-kidney%E2%80%99-goodbye-dialysis-machine/wak-schematic/ | 20:41 |
| @fenn | looks like there are quite a lot of these devices | 20:43 |
| @fenn | all in some stage of development | 20:44 |
| @fenn | this is basically reverse osmosis with feedback right? | 20:44 |
| @kanzure | not sure if feedback is required? | 20:45 |
| @fenn | the dialysate buffer is all that is different from regular reverse osmosis | 20:47 |
| @fenn | the ion concentration in the buffer cause preferential osmosis of ions that aren't in the buffer | 20:47 |
| @fenn | bleah | 20:48 |
| @fenn | omg this man is my hero | 20:49 |
| @fenn | "Dr. Willem Kolff, a Dutch physician, constructed the first working dialyzer in 1943 during the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands.[5] Due to the scarcity of available resources, Kolff had to improvise and build the initial machine using sausage casings, beverage cans, a washing machine, and various other items that were available at the time. " | 20:49 |
| @kanzure | yessss | 20:49 |
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| @fenn | i was pissed off at the episode of "house" where they had Amber on life support so everyone could say goodbye, and there was like zero discussion of artificial organs | 20:50 |
| @fenn | "she would never qualify" | 20:51 |
| @kanzure | how do dialysis scams work? it looks like there are dialysis facilities that people are shuttled to, instead of owning the machines. why? | 20:52 |
| @fenn | something about medicare requirements | 20:52 |
| @kanzure | surely owning the machine would cost less than the price that each facility pays (healthcare industry always pays more, etc..) | 20:53 |
| @fenn | but the patient isn't paying for it | 20:54 |
| @kanzure | not everyone qualifies for medicare | 20:55 |
| @fenn | The dialysis empire is run by CEO Kent Thiry, who dresses like one of the Three Musketeers, has adopted a company slogan of 'One for all and all for one' and in company staff meetings leads his employees, who he calls villagers, in cheers of "DaVita!" | 20:55 |
| @kanzure | i don't think i qualify for medicare | 20:56 |
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| @kanzure | "DaVita has grown in the past couple of years and now runs roughly 2,000 dialysis clinics across the country, which has added up to a $7 billion business." | 20:56 |
| @kanzure | $7 billion to operate these $500 machines? | 20:56 |
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| @fenn | where'd you get that number? | 20:57 |
| brownies | damn. what kind of margin do they make? | 20:57 |
| @kanzure | http://www.rosespeaks.com/tag/dialysis-empire-is-run-by-ceo-kent-thiry/ | 20:57 |
| @fenn | i'm seeing more like $4k "refurbished" so more like $20k new | 20:58 |
| @kanzure | let's see.. http://www.billpeckham.com/from_the_sharp_end_of_the/2010/01/the-business-of-dialysis-revenue-margin-and-profit.html | 20:58 |
| @fenn | good luck getting a real price quote on anything like that | 20:58 |
| @kanzure | "In the third quarter of 2009 their total revenue from Dialysis and Related Lab Services was $1,490,000,000 and their margin was $260,000,000." | 20:58 |
| brownies | 18% | 20:59 |
| @kanzure | "The Renal Fellow Network calculates the yearly per patient average revenue, additionally, the average yearly per patient margin would be $9,360." | 20:59 |
| @fenn | that's not a very high margin | 20:59 |
| @kanzure | "That makes the average yearly per patient profit $3,744" | 20:59 |
| @kanzure | this one says 1.3% http://www.renalbusiness.com/news/2010/12/medpac-estimates-13-dialysis-medicare-margin-in-2011.aspx | 21:00 |
| brownies | no, it's a pretty bad margin | 21:00 |
| @kanzure | "The Medicare margin for clinics affiliated with the two largest chains—DaVita and Fresenius—was 4.4 percent that year," | 21:01 |
| @kanzure | oh, medicare margin. not margin. | 21:01 |
| brownies | what's the medicare margin? | 21:01 |
| brownies | as in, margin on medicare patients? | 21:01 |
| @fenn | still, they're throwing brand new drugs in the trash. where does all that go in the accounting? | 21:01 |
| @kanzure | it might be margin on medicare grants(?) i dunno how it works. maybe they get reimbursed at a standard rate. | 21:02 |
| @fenn | pardon the link to cnn http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/30/health/medicare-fraud-case/index.html | 21:02 |
| @kanzure | ah it's reimbursement | 21:02 |
| brownies | what % of their patients are on Medicare? | 21:03 |
| brownies | eh, probably a relatively high number? >25% ? | 21:03 |
| @kanzure | it might be all of it? | 21:03 |
| @kanzure | "Because Medicare patients produce roughly 50 percent of DaVita's dialysis revenue and dialysis patient service operating revenues account....." | 21:03 |
| brownies | holy shit, though. if they make 4% margin on 50% of their patients, their total net margin is 18% on their whole customer base... | 21:04 |
| brownies | so 32% mark-up for the non-medicare folks -_- | 21:04 |
| @fenn | that sounds backwards | 21:05 |
| @fenn | who's paying for the non-medicare people? | 21:05 |
| @kanzure | why? non-medicare folks need the service. | 21:05 |
| @kanzure | non-medicare folks are probably those people who don't qualify due to income. | 21:05 |
| brownies | non-medicare = people with private insurance, or younger folks who aren't old enough for medicare, or something like that, right? | 21:05 |
| @kanzure | oh sorry i'm thinking of medicaid | 21:06 |
| @kanzure | yes, medicare is for the elderly (or disabled) | 21:06 |
| @fenn | disabled, like, people who are dying of kidney failure? | 21:06 |
| * fenn scratches his head in confusion | 21:06 | |
| @kanzure | but the davita lawsuit was for both medicare and medicaid | 21:06 |
| ArmilusDajjal | whatever happened to good old natural selection | 21:07 |
| @kanzure | hehehe "Medicare and Medicaid fraud has been estimated at $60 billion a year," | 21:07 |
| @fenn | is that all | 21:07 |
| @kanzure | "About 66% of DaVita's revenue comes from either Medicare or Medicaid. " | 21:07 |
| @kanzure | what | 21:07 |
| @kanzure | "Medicare and Medicaid comprise 90% and 66% of DaVita's treatments and revenues respectively," | 21:08 |
| ArmilusDajjal | INAGODDA DaVita | 21:08 |
| brownies | wait what | 21:09 |
| @kanzure | "Medicaid is mostly for people who have no health insurance and are low income. Medicaid requirements are handled state by state but generally the qualifications are you cannot have more than $2000 dollars, a car worth more than $4500 dollars, and an extremely low to no monthly income. " | 21:09 |
| @kanzure | http://forums.davita.com/showthread.php?973-Medicaid | 21:09 |
| @fenn | you cannot have more than $2000? | 21:11 |
| @kanzure | yeah so medicaid only covers you if you're up to 1.33x the poverty line, which is like $25k/year or something stupid | 21:11 |
| @kanzure | so everyone else is probably paying out of pocket or with private insurance | 21:12 |
| @fenn | you can't even get your teeth cleaned for that much money | 21:12 |
| @kanzure | brownies: their medicaid stats should be public since they are a public company, right? | 21:13 |
| brownies | yes | 21:14 |
| @kanzure | their 10-K ? | 21:14 |
| brownies | but data about government spending is always damned difficult to track down, let alone parse and understand | 21:14 |
| brownies | 10-K would be a good place to start. | 21:14 |
| @kanzure | http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=76556&p=IROL-secToc&TOC=aHR0cDovL2FwaS50ZW5rd2l6YXJkLmNvbS9vdXRsaW5lLnhtbD9yZXBvPXRlbmsmaXBhZ2U9ODA5MTg4MQ==&sXBRL=1 | 21:14 |
| @kanzure | medicaid is 5% of their revenue | 21:15 |
| @kanzure | "The payments we receive from commercial payors generate nearly all of our profits." | 21:16 |
| @kanzure | weird. 11% of the patients were paying with commercial insurance, generating 34% of dialysis revenue. | 21:17 |
| @kanzure | so i guess nobody is paying out of pocket? | 21:18 |
| @kanzure | what happens if you make >1.3x the poverty line, your kidneys fail, and you have no insurance because pre-existing condition? | 21:18 |
| @fenn | you don't get dialysis, that's why they don't have any customers paying out of pocket | 21:19 |
| @kanzure | oh right there's "home dialysis" commercials all the time | 21:20 |
| @fenn | (you added up the percentages? i wasn't really paying attention) | 21:20 |
| @kanzure | "For dialysis, either home or incenter between $3000US - $5000USer month " | 21:20 |
| @kanzure | that's a pretty big gap from the top of the poverty line | 21:20 |
| @kanzure | oh i see.. stage 5 kidney failure patients qualify for medicare. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_Stage_Renal_Disease_(US_Federal_Program) makes sense. | 21:22 |
| @fenn | " the composite rate is adjusted up or down by a geographic wage adjustment. The final adjustment is for case mix; certain beneficiary characteristics trigger composite rate adjustments. These are based on age, body surface area and body mass index" | 21:24 |
| @kanzure | "Incenter dialysis and home hemodialysis are reimbursed to exactly the same amounts in the United States under the ESRD program. From CMS's point of view any form of dialysis is still more expensive than renal transplantation if looked at over a three-year period." | 21:24 |
| brownies | why are you guys so into dialysis all of a sudden anyway? | 21:24 |
| @fenn | it's easier than doing my homework :\ | 21:25 |
| @kanzure | ... | 21:25 |
| @kanzure | " Nosé's machine consisted of a coil (to transport the blood) placed in a household (electric) washing machine filled with dialysate. It did not have a pump and blood transport through the coil was dependent on the patient's heart. The dialysate was circulated by turning on the washing machine (which mixed the dialysate and resulted in some convection) and Nosé's experiments show that this indeed improved the clearance of toxins." | 21:25 |
| @kanzure | brownies: oh, juri_ has a parent that's gonna die | 21:25 |
| @kanzure | and i was saying a dialysis machine is more practical than building a cell printer | 21:26 |
| brownies | oh. =/ | 21:26 |
| brownies | fenn: they let your dirty hippie self into a school? | 21:26 |
| @kanzure | and then i was curious why they were so cheap on ebay, considering they are medical equipment | 21:26 |
| @fenn | brownies: also the concept of artificial organs is interesting in general, and i have a morbid fascination with broken healthcare systems | 21:26 |
| @kanzure | fenn: you missed the washing machine quote | 21:26 |
| @kanzure | "In the early 1970s, approximately 40% of patients used it. Today, it is used by approximately 0.4%" | 21:26 |
| @fenn | "it" meaning what? | 21:27 |
| @kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_hemodialysis | 21:27 |
| @fenn | well duh | 21:28 |
| * fenn sighs | 21:28 | |
| @kanzure | so, a washing machine is pretty simple | 21:29 |
| @fenn | this stuff isn't magic | 21:29 |
| @kanzure | then why are they paying $3000/mo for this non-magic | 21:30 |
| @fenn | the trick is not getting infections when you have a tube in your artery for years | 21:30 |
| @fenn | they charge so much because they can | 21:30 |
| @fenn | what are you gonna do, not get dialysis? | 21:30 |
| @fenn | same as any healthcare | 21:31 |
| @kanzure | well it didn't even occur to juri_ to just get the damn machine -_- | 21:31 |
| @kanzure | i'm sure there's some supplies that cost a bit, but i dunno about $3000/mo.. | 21:31 |
| @fenn | i wonder if the same strategy used for seeding pig livers with human stem cells works for livers | 21:34 |
| @fenn | er, kidneys | 21:34 |
| @fenn | basically use the collagen in the existing organ as a scaffold | 21:34 |
| @fenn | make sure to wash out all the existing cells with a harsh detergent | 21:35 |
| @fenn | that would be a neat science fair project | 21:35 |
| @fenn | the irony is you'd probably get expelled for "cruelty to animals" or somesuch | 21:35 |
| @fenn | meanwhile everyone gobblin their fried chicken | 21:36 |
| @fenn | if you eat your experiments afterwards does that make it okay? | 21:38 |
| yashgaroth | if that experiment is successful, does it become cannibalism | 21:39 |
| @fenn | auto-cannibalism | 21:39 |
| @kanzure | don't we just call that an immune response? | 21:40 |
| @fenn | wait, what? | 21:40 |
| @kanzure | immune rejection | 21:41 |
| @fenn | if the experiment is successful, the organ becomes a "part" of you | 21:41 |
| @kanzure | and another name for auto-cannibalism is immune something or other | 21:41 |
| @fenn | if the experiment is unsuccessful, you eat the organ, and it becomes a "part" of you, but in a different way | 21:41 |
| @kanzure | ah. | 21:41 |
| yashgaroth | oh and fenn since no one appears to have answered, GBS is http://forums.somethingawful.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=1 | 21:43 |
| @fenn | man what a waste of a day | 21:48 |
| ParahSailin | going to austin tomorrow | 21:53 |
| @fenn | juri_: if you are worried about developing diabetes, i suggest you buy a copy of and read "the anti aging zone", or if you don't have time for a whole book, at least read this http://www.drsears.com/portals/6/Documents/Inflammation%20Medical%20Brochure.pdf | 21:53 |
| @kanzure | ParahSailin: we could hang out, and if you need a place to stay let me know | 21:53 |
| @fenn | although i doubt that brochure makes a lot of sense unless you know what it's talking about to begin with | 21:54 |
| ParahSailin | we're staying at a hotel | 21:54 |
| ParahSailin | but could i get your number? | 21:54 |
| @kanzure | 512-203-0507 | 21:54 |
| ParahSailin | we could do dinner or some other meal | 21:54 |
| @kanzure | sounds good to me | 21:54 |
| @kanzure | i am awake during most hours of the day, so just pick a few | 21:55 |
| ParahSailin | you have any suggestions of stuff to do? gf is coming along, we're probably doing most of the first time in austin stuff like capitol, museums, state park | 21:56 |
| @kanzure | it's the right time of the year to go to the bridge and get pooped on by bats | 21:56 |
| @kanzure | oh wait, no. that might have been october. | 21:56 |
| @kanzure | yep they've migrated already, sucks to be you | 21:57 |
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| @kanzure | ParahSailin: http://atxhackerspace.org/ has some okay people | 21:58 |
| @kanzure | there's a wildflower museum since you seem to be into museums | 22:01 |
| ParahSailin | im not, gf is | 22:02 |
| @kanzure | there's a bioinformatics startup called lab7 somewhere in austin that might be interesting to visit | 22:03 |
| @kanzure | oh it's saturday.. no idea if they are into weekends | 22:03 |
| @kanzure | brownies: the other reason is that there might be pent-up demand for open source dialysis machines, which would be interesting to explore | 22:10 |
| @fenn | open source medical anything is a clusterfuck waiting to happen | 22:11 |
| @kanzure | "assemble your own life-saving thing" what could go wrong | 22:11 |
| @fenn | i wonder if we'll get into a situation like with gun manufacturing, where you're legally allowed to make your own medical devices, but only can sell them with prohibitively expensive testing and certification | 22:13 |
| @kanzure | i'm sure that's already the case. | 22:13 |
| @fenn | is it? am i legally allowed to make my own medical devices? | 22:13 |
| @kanzure | oh, for yourself? hrm. | 22:13 |
| @fenn | and am i allowed to tell others how to do so? | 22:14 |
| @fenn | not like your opinion counts | 22:14 |
| @kanzure | no, i don't happen to know case law on this one | 22:14 |
| @fenn | i should make some list of questions for next time i bump into a lawyer | 22:14 |
| brownies | kanzure: it does seem like an interesting market | 22:15 |
| @kanzure | brownies: i keep hearing these tales of people paying >$10k/mo for blood treatments in some rare blood diseases | 22:15 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: you wouldn't happen to know the names of these diseases, would you? | 22:16 |
| yashgaroth | like hemophilia? | 22:16 |
| yashgaroth | anemias | 22:16 |
| @kanzure | i dunno, the more expensive the better | 22:17 |
| @kanzure | also, could dialysis get alcohol out of the blood stream? | 22:17 |
| @fenn | yep | 22:17 |
| yashgaroth | the ones I know all require factors sourced from human blood, I dunno about dialysis and other machine-based ones | 22:17 |
| @kanzure | why aren't they standard in vehicles then | 22:18 |
| @fenn | dialysis is prescribed for isopropanol poisoning | 22:18 |
| @kanzure | neat | 22:18 |
| @fenn | well, i think breathalyzers should be a standard feature, but dialysis is going a bit far | 22:19 |
| @fenn | there's a high risk of blood poisoning if the machine isn't perfectly clean | 22:19 |
| @fenn | also, how are you going to put needles in your veins when you're sloppy drunk? | 22:20 |
| @kanzure | it's a prototype there are bound to be flaws | 22:20 |
| @kanzure | possibly life-threatening flaws | 22:21 |
| ParahSailin | how about a celephone charger that hooks into a vein that runs off an ethanol fuel cell | 22:21 |
| yashgaroth | "I swear I'm not trying to dialyze alcohol out of my blood, officer, I'm uhh...a heroin addict?" | 22:21 |
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| @kanzure | oh right have you pdx people assimilated lichen or BioGuy yet? | 22:59 |
| @fenn | juri_: also it seems that magnesium deficiency causes insulin resistance | 23:15 |
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| juri_ | sorry, was repairing LCD monitors. one success, one failure. | 23:33 |
| juri_ | yes, i realize i could be more practical, and hook him up with a machine... but not everyone can do that, and me being myself, ive always shot for the 'everyone can do this' solutions. | 23:33 |
| @kanzure | wtf? why can't everyone use a dialysis machine? | 23:34 |
| juri_ | if it doesn't scale, it really doesn't enter into my thought paterns. | 23:34 |
| @kanzure | how does it not scale? it's a giant washing machine. | 23:34 |
| juri_ | everyone can use one, but not everyone who needs one has a child who can just get / fix one. | 23:34 |
| @kanzure | if that's the source of the problem, then a printer would also be problematic | 23:35 |
| @kanzure | because they can't do implant surgery | 23:35 |
| juri_ | he's not to that point yet, anyways. not a stage i like to think about. | 23:35 |
| * juri_ nods. | 23:35 | |
| juri_ | i can only solve the problems within my skillset, and that's one i can't solve. | 23:35 |
| @kanzure | building a dialysis machine is orders of magnitude easier | 23:35 |
| juri_ | i CAN solve 'make 3d printers useful for biomatter'. | 23:36 |
| @kanzure | um. | 23:36 |
| @kanzure | fenn: help me out here. i can't tolerate this for long. | 23:36 |
| juri_ | kanzure: take it a little less seriously. | 23:36 |
| @kanzure | death? | 23:36 |
| juri_ | my father's not at stage 5 yet. | 23:36 |
| juri_ | death is a problem we all have. | 23:37 |
| @kanzure | no, i will be as serious as i want to be | 23:37 |
| juri_ | when he needs a machine, you're right, i'll have to get ahold of one. | 23:37 |
| juri_ | but for now.. i'm shooting for the 'big' target. | 23:37 |
| -!- JayDugger [~duggerjw@pool-173-74-81-239.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:41 | |
| -!- AlonzoTG [~atg@dsl092-168-049.wdc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:49 | |
| -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 23:49 | |
| @kanzure | JayDugger: hi. | 23:50 |
| JayDugger | Good evening! | 23:50 |
| @fenn | ah finally found an explanation of _why_ diabetes leads to kidney failure | 23:57 |
| @fenn | "glycosylation endproducts (AGEs) accumulate on the walls of the blood vessels in the kidneys, which makes the nephrons' filters too porous or leaky. As a result, protein molecules begin to slip through the kidneys' filters and into the urine." | 23:58 |
| @fenn | "and, of all things, frequent bouts of the hiccups, which for some reason often accompany kidney failure" sounds like a straightforward case of magnesium deficiency to me | 23:59 |
| -!- strages_home [~strages@98.67.175.176] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:59 | |
| --- Log closed Sat Dec 15 00:00:57 2012 | ||
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