| --- Log opened Sat Dec 15 00:00:57 2012 | ||
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| @fenn | oh, glycation, not glycosylation | 00:03 |
|---|---|---|
| @fenn | Alagebrium, an anti-AGE drug "is that it is not a difficult compound to synthesize. An active black market arose very quickly after the early Phase I and II tests ended. Independent, lab-tested, certified for purity product was available for a short time on the grey market at about $3 per gram." | 00:08 |
| @fenn | where can i get this stuff? | 00:08 |
| @fenn | juri_: that's what you should be working on, grey-market drug synthesis | 00:09 |
| @fenn | drugs work, people just can't get them | 00:10 |
| @fenn | "Although Alagebrium has shown very promising Phase I and II clinical trials, active research stopped because Alteon had run out of operating cash." | 00:11 |
| @fenn | and nobody's heard of it since | 00:11 |
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| juri_ | mm. not even tempting; i don't mind enabling geeks, but i could never sleep again if i manufactured things that hurt people... again. | 00:20 |
| JayDugger | Ambien would take care of that, just fine. | 00:21 |
| @fenn | i'm not following your logic. what's hurting who how? | 00:24 |
| juri_ | oh, i simply don't know enough chemestry, plus would hate to give people something that caused cancer later-in-life. | 00:27 |
| @fenn | beats dying of diabetes when you're young | 00:28 |
| JayDugger | Ditto. | 00:28 |
| @fenn | don't let a possible future danger outweigh a clear and present danger | 00:29 |
| @fenn | anyway if chemistry isn't your thing, that's fine | 00:30 |
| @fenn | it's understandable that nobody's interested in chemistry, when we aren't exposed to it (how many chemical engineers do you know) and effectively not allowed to do it as a hobby | 00:32 |
| juri_ | my things are good documentation, 3d printing, image recognition, clustering, and virtualization. I also program in pretty much every language i come into contact with. | 00:32 |
| juri_ | given that skillset, improving the documentation and technology for 3d printing biomaterials makes sense, if i want to be helpful. | 00:33 |
| juri_ | sorry if i sound disconnected. i've been up way too long, on way to little of sleep. | 00:34 |
| @fenn | might i suggest helping out with basic cad software | 00:34 |
| @fenn | i mean it's really pathetic what we're dealing with | 00:35 |
| @fenn | every other year someone comes out with another half-assed CSG modeler | 00:35 |
| @fenn | i really liked implicitcad but it currently has severe implementation bugs | 00:36 |
| @fenn | also there's the whole issue of part assembly and constraints | 00:36 |
| juri_ | I'll be doing that 'naturally', as implicitcad is my go-to language of choice for designing new parts. | 00:36 |
| @fenn | i'm sort of confused why no cad programs allow you to design by manufacturing operation | 00:37 |
| @fenn | it's all pure geometry and you have to keep in mind how you're supposed to actually make the damn thing | 00:38 |
| @fenn | you should give the computer a set of machining operations or bending operations or whatever, and specify the interfaces and let it come up with the optimum solution | 00:38 |
| @fenn | even reprap has pretty severe shape constraints | 00:40 |
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| wrldpc | has anyone printed the wiki weapon? | 03:16 |
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| JayDugger | Wrldpc, do you mean anyone at all, or anyone here? | 04:20 |
| JayDugger | At least major printed sub-assembly got tested to destruction, according to their blogs. | 04:21 |
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| wrldpc | the latter | 04:32 |
| JayDugger | I haven't, but I have no place to test fire it. My neighbors are sissies and the local indoor ranges fussy. | 04:33 |
| JayDugger | I've an ex-co-worker who might try it in a year or two. | 04:34 |
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| kirka | Hi, kanzure | 07:05 |
| kirka | kanzure I have three paywalled papers | 07:07 |
| kirka | kanzure If you like, you could add them to your collection | 07:08 |
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| kirka | Some insight into Zyvex' splitting: http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2007/04/16/story5.html?page=all | 07:43 |
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| eudoxia | i heard zyvex had like 80 projects before they changed director and fired Merkle and co. | 09:03 |
| eudoxia | then they had 3 or something lol | 09:03 |
| kirka | Hehe | 09:07 |
| kirka | Wait | 09:07 |
| kirka | Von Ehr was always a founder | 09:07 |
| kirka | kanzure eudoxia http://rghost.ru/42266618 | 09:12 |
| kirka | Good articles. | 09:12 |
| @kanzure | what is 422666618? | 09:14 |
| @kanzure | fenn: i don't think juri_ is capable of reasoning in that sense | 09:14 |
| kirka | kanzure Some paywalled articles, including that paper on DNA channel | 09:15 |
| @kanzure | what is the doi or title | 09:15 |
| kirka | http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1225624 | 09:16 |
| @kanzure | i guess i deserved that -_- | 09:16 |
| @kanzure | you can't answer one obscure link with another one | 09:16 |
| kirka | If you don't need it, it's ok, heh | 09:16 |
| @kanzure | ok what you should have said is this: | 09:16 |
| @kanzure | "Synthetic Lipid Membrane Channels Formed by Designed DNA Nanostructures" | 09:16 |
| kirka | Ok | 09:16 |
| @kanzure | that's way more descriptive than 42266618 or 1225624 | 09:16 |
| * kanzure leaves | 09:17 | |
| eudoxia | oh the moriarty paper | 09:17 |
| kirka | Yep. | 09:17 |
| eudoxia | so the grant ends in a couple weeks | 09:18 |
| eudoxia | maybe he's secretly already implemented the minimal toolset, hahaha | 09:18 |
| eudoxia | sigh | 09:18 |
| kirka | Hehehe | 09:18 |
| kirka | >Ends:31 March 2014 | 09:19 |
| kirka | If he hasn't already, he has only 15 months left | 09:19 |
| kirka | He should hurry | 09:19 |
| kirka | Or his UHV-STM chamber will turn into a pumpkin | 09:20 |
| eudoxia | i thought it ended in 2013 | 09:20 |
| eudoxia | you're right | 09:22 |
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| kirka | Brenner's potential is interesting | 09:27 |
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| eudoxia | btw kirka check your inbox | 09:31 |
| kirka | >Google+ | 09:31 |
| kirka | >Social network | 09:31 |
| kirka | I don't like them | 09:32 |
| kirka | But it's ok to mail me | 09:36 |
| eudoxia | what's that thing about data mining | 09:36 |
| kirka | I'm stidying machine learning (in application to computer vision), so I don't want to be the object for these algorithms, heh | 09:38 |
| eudoxia | i wouldn't worry much about data mining, at least in a dataset with a billion other people you'd be just a tiny data point | 09:39 |
| kirka | It's irrational | 09:39 |
| kirka | And social networks can take a lot of time | 09:39 |
| eudoxia | i wish they took more of my time, i can't spend more than a few idle seconds on facebook without closing the tab | 09:40 |
| @kanzure | maybe you need better friends | 09:41 |
| @kanzure | that post interesting things | 09:41 |
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| AdrianG | are you an interesting friend kanzure | 09:56 |
| @kanzure | why are you here? can't you just leave and never return? | 09:58 |
| eudoxia | is AdrianG bad? | 09:59 |
| eudoxia | i always confuse him with the other guy, the one who still posts on technocalypse | 09:59 |
| AdrianG | no :< I'll be good. | 09:59 |
| AdrianG | eudoxia: kanzure dislikes my non-conventional grammar. | 09:59 |
| @kanzure | i dislike your stupidity | 10:00 |
| @kanzure | if you have nothing to say, stfu | 10:00 |
| docl | hi eudoxia | 10:06 |
| docl | how's it going? | 10:06 |
| eudoxia | hey docl | 10:08 |
| eudoxia | shit's great | 10:08 |
| docl | I just started a cryonics improvement forum at bettercryonics.com, thought you might be interested. | 10:08 |
| docl | I've only put in a few articles for structure and such so far. | 10:09 |
| eudoxia | yay i can loose that yahoo account | 10:09 |
| @kanzure | loose? lose? | 10:10 |
| docl | let it out of its cage! | 10:10 |
| docl | way to correct spellingz man | 10:10 |
| AdrianG | im not stupid. | 10:11 |
| AdrianG | i r genias. | 10:11 |
| docl | d'aw, so cute! | 10:11 |
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| @kanzure | no geniasses allowed | 10:12 |
| eudoxia | lose* | 10:12 |
| * docl meekly stops baiting kanzure | 10:12 | |
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| docl | eudoxia: for my forum, I figure the best thing is to focus on science topics at first. let the community stuff build around that. | 10:41 |
| eudoxia | docl: i suppose | 10:42 |
| kirka | docl That's good approach | 10:42 |
| eudoxia | docl have i already shown you the cryonics article in the h+ wiki? | 10:42 |
| eudoxia | http://wiki.transhumani.com/index.php?title=Cryonics | 10:43 |
| eudoxia | it has a list of everyone who's been cryopreserved except some of the latest cases | 10:43 |
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| AdrianG | see what he does :< | 10:44 |
| docl | eudoxia: woah, that's a big list. | 10:46 |
| eudoxia | thanks, i did my best | 10:46 |
| docl | good for future reanimators to have. | 10:47 |
| eudoxia | hah, yeah | 10:47 |
| eudoxia | i tried to get the pictures where they looked youngest | 10:48 |
| eudoxia | see ettinger and leaf | 10:48 |
| * kirka signs in relief: he doesn't need to think about cryonics | 11:00 | |
| eudoxia | russians and their permafrost | 11:00 |
| kirka | heh | 11:02 |
| docl | I'm not committed to a particular forum style yet, but I like the idea of something that works well on mobile. | 11:02 |
| @kanzure | like email! | 11:03 |
| eudoxia | hey i just remembered and you guys aren't going to believe this, but yesterday at work the subject of cryonics came up | 11:03 |
| docl | cool | 11:04 |
| eudoxia | walt disney, frozen, and one guy said that thing about the ice crystals smashing the cells | 11:04 |
| eudoxia | but i didn't say anything because i would've looked like a crazy cultist who actually knows cryonics companies' procedures | 11:04 |
| jrayhawk | did cryo companies have procedures back then | 11:05 |
| docl | well, darn | 11:05 |
| eudoxia | well, at least one person had been frozen the same year walt died | 11:05 |
| eudoxia | but it was a cosmetic preservation, straight-frozen to liquid nitrogen temperature | 11:06 |
| eudoxia | http://wiki.transhumani.com/images/7/70/FirstWomanSuspended.jpg | 11:06 |
| eudoxia | "The patient had been stored at above-freezing temperature in a mortuary refrigerator after being embalmed for two months before being straight-frozen to liquid nitrogen temperature." | 11:06 |
| AdrianG | suspended kind of implies they were able to revive | 11:07 |
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| eudoxia | well maybe the embalming did something | 11:18 |
| eudoxia | mike darwin was going to write an article about pedro ara's embalming techniques and high-temperature vitrification but i don't think that's up yet | 11:18 |
| @kanzure | mike's the guy behind chronopause, right? | 11:18 |
| eudoxia | yeah | 11:19 |
| kirka | You know, in semiconductor journals they say that Moore's law is slowing down. | 11:25 |
| kirka | >Chang said that Moore’s Law is slowing and chip-production costs continue to soar. | 11:25 |
| kirka | http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-blogs/other/4390409/Is-the-cost-reduction-associated-with-IC-scaling-over- | 11:25 |
| kirka | Time to adopt new process rises slightly with 22 nm, 14 nm nodes | 11:25 |
| kirka | Price per transistor begins to grow | 11:25 |
| kirka | 14 nm requires triple patterning (there is still no comercial EUV) | 11:26 |
| jrayhawk | wafer production costs continue to soar; chip production costs are mostly stagnant at this point | 11:26 |
| kirka | http://chipdesignmag.com/images/uploads/0911CderFig2_Wafer_Cost.jpg ? | 11:27 |
| kirka | That means poor "moore's law will solve my problems" guys are wrong. | 11:34 |
| kirka | You knew that, of course. | 11:34 |
| archels | Should we still call it Moore's law when it comes to other substrates? | 11:42 |
| ThomasEgi | archels, do you have graphene in mind? | 11:47 |
| ThomasEgi | or diamonds? | 11:47 |
| kirka | For me the most important thing is that someone should do it instead of taking it for granted. | 11:48 |
| AdrianG | ok so you ppl are into diybio | 11:49 |
| AdrianG | how do i prepare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_lipid_nanoparticle#Use_for_drug_delivery | 11:49 |
| AdrianG | kirka: i think intel will prove chang wrong. | 11:50 |
| archels | ThomasEgi: carbon-based comes to mind, but not necessarily that. Probably not down to quantum computing though. | 11:51 |
| archels | perhaps as rudimentary as 3D silicium | 11:52 |
| kirka | >quantum computing | 11:52 |
| kirka | You are saying like it's easy, heh | 11:52 |
| kirka | EUV could be of help. | 11:52 |
| archels | I was hoping to place that aside for this discussion, because it's in a class of its own | 11:52 |
| archels | EUV and FinFETs seem to be the industry's bet right now | 11:53 |
| kirka | EUV lags | 11:53 |
| archels | hence why Moore's law lags :) | 11:53 |
| kirka | Intel says about triple patterning on 14 nm node | 11:54 |
| * archels wonders if e-beam lithography will ever really take off | 11:54 | |
| kirka | Creating 14 nm features with 193 nm light costs much | 11:55 |
| kirka | archels I have read about http://www.mapperlithography.com/news/2012 | 11:55 |
| kirka | Looks promising | 11:56 |
| AdrianG | why arent they using x-ray frequencies yet | 11:57 |
| kirka | Heh | 11:57 |
| AdrianG | hard xray goes to 10 picometer | 11:58 |
| kirka | They'll create defects in Si crystal | 11:58 |
| AdrianG | wavelength. | 11:58 |
| AdrianG | they do? too energetic? | 11:58 |
| kirka | Thay are almost impossible to control | 11:58 |
| kirka | Yep. | 11:58 |
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| AdrianG | silicon is on its last legs anywya | 11:58 |
| AdrianG | whats the next projected material? | 11:59 |
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| AdrianG | carbon nanotubes? | 11:59 |
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| kirka | Always windered how do you make enything with carbon nanotubes as raw material | 12:03 |
| kirka | *wondered | 12:03 |
| kirka | *anything | 12:03 |
| AdrianG | in-situ generation? | 12:04 |
| AdrianG | also, did anything come out of this memristor buzz? | 12:04 |
| kirka | >in-situ generation? | 12:04 |
| kirka | How? | 12:04 |
| AdrianG | idk? | 12:04 |
| AdrianG | if i knew - i'd be busy destroying intel | 12:04 |
| AdrianG | or negotiating my sell-out to them at the highest possible price. | 12:04 |
| kirka | >memristor | 12:05 |
| kirka | RRAM seems to mature | 12:05 |
| AdrianG | no production chips yet? | 12:06 |
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| lws | super college? | 12:06 |
| kirka | http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4235304/Elpida-announces-ReRAM-chip | 12:08 |
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| AdrianG | lol struggling ram maker | 12:13 |
| AdrianG | hmm | 12:13 |
| AdrianG | gigabit scale eh | 12:13 |
| AdrianG | wtf | 12:13 |
| eudoxia | i think super college refers to grad school lws | 12:13 |
| lws | Hrm | 12:14 |
| lws | I want to get a PhD... | 12:14 |
| @kanzure | lws: hi. | 12:15 |
| lws | Hello | 12:17 |
| @kanzure | what brings you here? | 12:18 |
| AdrianG | a phd is a waste of time. | 12:19 |
| chris_99 | not if you want to work in academia ;) | 12:19 |
| @kanzure | chris_99: not true, there are many non-degree holders that work in academia. | 12:19 |
| AdrianG | second-class citizens. | 12:19 |
| chris_99 | maybe, it probably makes it easier to get positions though | 12:19 |
| curt1s | do we have a good biohackery solution for my eczema yet | 12:20 |
| curt1s | its really flaring up bad D: | 12:20 |
| AdrianG | dexmethasone? | 12:20 |
| curt1s | dermatologist gave me some steroid crap | 12:22 |
| curt1s | it works sort of | 12:22 |
| curt1s | but really weakens the skin | 12:22 |
| AdrianG | hydrocortisone? | 12:22 |
| curt1s | not cortisone | 12:22 |
| curt1s | lets see | 12:22 |
| curt1s | triamcinolone | 12:22 |
| AdrianG | oic | 12:22 |
| curt1s | yeah i dont really like to use it so much | 12:23 |
| curt1s | so if i could just trade up for superior genetics | 12:24 |
| curt1s | that would be rad | 12:24 |
| AdrianG | you people ever seen ads asking to reduce hunger? I always feel like they are asking for meth or something. | 12:25 |
| curt1s | lol | 12:25 |
| curt1s | diet pills | 12:25 |
| curt1s | bennies | 12:25 |
| AdrianG | bennies is just meth. | 12:41 |
| lws | I really don't understand why 2-DPMP isn't prescribed for ADHD. | 12:46 |
| kirka | >ADHD | 12:47 |
| kirka | >Doesn't exist | 12:47 |
| lws | Oh yeah? | 12:47 |
| lws | What is it? | 12:47 |
| kirka | Yep. Definetly. | 12:47 |
| lws | So what do the people with those symptoms have? | 12:47 |
| kirka | I haven't seen any | 12:47 |
| AdrianG | r u blind | 12:48 |
| kirka | Well, in Russia ADHD is unheard of. | 12:48 |
| kirka | It's matter of hype | 12:48 |
| kirka | And big pharma creating markets for their "meds" | 12:48 |
| AdrianG | r u in russia | 12:49 |
| kirka | Нуыю | 12:49 |
| kirka | Yes. | 12:49 |
| AdrianG | russia does not even allow their physicians to prescribe amphetamines | 12:49 |
| AdrianG | or methylphenidate | 12:49 |
| AdrianG | instead, they get it from street dealers. | 12:49 |
| kirka | Maybe | 12:49 |
| AdrianG | 70% of meth addicts are simply people with unmedicated ADHD | 12:50 |
| AdrianG | do you have any meth addicts in russia | 12:50 |
| kirka | Probably, I haven't seen any in person | 12:50 |
| kirka | "Mental illness" is very subjective thing | 12:50 |
| AdrianG | adhd is not really a mental illness. | 12:50 |
| kirka | In Russia's past it was used to isolate dissidents from society | 12:51 |
| AdrianG | its a neurologic disorder, used to be called minimal brain dysfunction. | 12:51 |
| kirka | We don't yet know how the brain works | 12:51 |
| kirka | How can we know that some behaveoural patterns are sign of "disorder"? | 12:52 |
| kirka | We don't have biological basis for that | 12:52 |
| lws | That's simply not true. | 12:52 |
| kirka | Well, probably you can find correlation between behavioural patterns and genotype/brain structure etc | 12:53 |
| AdrianG | kirka: that's stupid. | 12:53 |
| AdrianG | adhd is simply a frontal lobe disorder. | 12:53 |
| kirka | But why can you say that this behaviour is wrong? | 12:54 |
| AdrianG | its not a behavioral problem. | 12:54 |
| lws | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=273Os74Rtw4 | 12:54 |
| AdrianG | its inability to concentrate, maintain stable attention | 12:54 |
| AdrianG | behavior stems from that. | 12:54 |
| kirka | >frontal lobe disorder | 12:54 |
| kirka | Proofs? | 12:54 |
| @kanzure | kirka: "we don't yet know how the brain works" is a lie | 12:54 |
| AdrianG | kirka: google fmri adhd | 12:54 |
| AdrianG | or genetic studies and D4 polymorphisms. | 12:54 |
| kirka | kanzure "What I cannot build I do not understand" | 12:55 |
| @kanzure | kirka: surely you know that we have many wonderful neuroscience projects; it's not exactly a black box. | 12:55 |
| @kanzure | kirka: maybe you just suck at neuroscience? | 12:55 |
| lws | Autism isn't a disorder either. | 12:55 |
| lws | So says Kirka | 12:55 |
| kirka | Feynamn said so | 12:55 |
| @kanzure | kirka: yes i know who said that quote, so what | 12:55 |
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| AdrianG | yes, understanding is a binary thing | 12:55 |
| AdrianG | black and white, ffs. | 12:55 |
| AdrianG | partial understanding does not exist according to kirka | 12:56 |
| kirka | >we don't yet know how the brain works | 12:56 |
| @kanzure | lws: why are you here again? | 12:56 |
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| kirka | I think that trying to modify subject's behaviour with mind-altering drugs is wrong. | 12:57 |
| kirka | Especially in compulsory manner. | 12:57 |
| lws | Subjects often want help | 12:57 |
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| lws | In the US you voluntarily take the medication | 12:57 |
| kirka | Society hypes them with "drugs will help you" and they eat them, instead of trying to solve their problems themselves | 12:58 |
| kirka | ADHD is also unheard of in Europe. | 12:58 |
| lws | So what is autism? | 12:58 |
| kirka | Some extreme variation of phenotype | 12:59 |
| kirka | If it doesn't bother the subject it's ok | 12:59 |
| lws | heh | 12:59 |
| lws | You're very confused. | 12:59 |
| lws | ADHD is treated with CBT and low dose stimulates usually | 13:00 |
| kirka | And I'm sure that subjects were much less bothered if society didn't mark them as "ill" | 13:00 |
| lws | You still haven't offered any explanation for the paradoxical stimulant response in ADHD patients. | 13:00 |
| kirka | >confused | 13:00 |
| kirka | Nope | 13:00 |
| AdrianG | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_McEwen | 13:00 |
| chris_99 | huh, why is ADHD unheard of in europe? | 13:00 |
| Mariu | :p | 13:00 |
| kirka | I haven't heard about ADHD mediaction debate in Europe | 13:00 |
| AdrianG | lol 'unheard of in europe' | 13:00 |
| AdrianG | adhd is very well known in europe. | 13:01 |
| AdrianG | adhd is real. | 13:02 |
| AdrianG | very real. | 13:02 |
| lws | ADHD is differentiable, both in heritability, brain structure, and behavior. Stimulants provide paradoxical responses in children with ADHD. It also presents negative symptoms. | 13:02 |
| AdrianG | we just had another person dx'd with it at nootropics chat. | 13:02 |
| kirka | Subjective, it is. As any other mental condition. | 13:02 |
| AdrianG | nope, not subjective | 13:02 |
| lws | Most people want medication, not because of societal pressure, but because they're failing through school/college | 13:02 |
| AdrianG | unable to perform as well as healthy controls - NOT subjective. | 13:02 |
| kirka | lws I think left-hanedness is differentiable too. It's just the question of what to call "normal". | 13:02 |
| AdrianG | left-handedness is not an impairement | 13:03 |
| lws | Left handedness doesn't prevent you from carrying on a conversation. | 13:03 |
| AdrianG | unable to organize your life - is an impairement | 13:03 |
| kirka | I actually know stories about left-handed people, that were compulsory relearned to use right hand. They had serious problems later. | 13:03 |
| Mariu | yes, my case | 13:04 |
| Mariu | and I was in europe | 13:04 |
| Mariu | still m | 13:04 |
| kirka | >carrying on a conversation | 13:04 |
| kirka | If you cannot carry out a conversation, you are marked as ill and compulsory medicated? | 13:04 |
| AdrianG | it is never compulsory | 13:04 |
| AdrianG | are you stupid? | 13:04 |
| kirka | That's ridiculous. | 13:04 |
| AdrianG | people BEG for it. | 13:04 |
| lws | Nobody is talking about compulsory medication | 13:04 |
| kirka | Society made them beg. | 13:04 |
| AdrianG | doctors are very reluctant to prescribe stimulants | 13:05 |
| AdrianG | especially to adults | 13:05 |
| AdrianG | kirka: yes, they fail at life | 13:05 |
| AdrianG | and then they beg for help | 13:05 |
| kirka | Scial pressure is strong, isn;t it? Are they allowed to study if they don't take mediactions? | 13:05 |
| AdrianG | you call it compulsory medication. | 13:05 |
| lws | kirka you are so full of shit. I am 27 years old and was finally diagnosed with ADHD. | 13:05 |
| AdrianG | kirka is russian. | 13:05 |
| kirka | lws If you like drugs, that;s your choice. | 13:05 |
| AdrianG | russia has a lot of issues with psychiatry. | 13:05 |
| AdrianG | due to abuses of psychiatry under the commie regime. | 13:05 |
| lws | kirka: I was already taking drugs for my ADHD. I was smoking multiple packs of cigarettes and drinking upwards of 2 pots of coffee a day to stay on task. | 13:06 |
| kirka | >to stay on task | 13:06 |
| lws | kirka: When I got put on medication, I magically stopped doing that. | 13:06 |
| lws | kirka: I am a physicist for a living. If I can't focus, I can't work. | 13:06 |
| AdrianG | its all about comparision to healthy controls. | 13:06 |
| AdrianG | if you cant keep up with controls, you are not healthy. the end. | 13:07 |
| kirka | That's your choice. I respect it. | 13:07 |
| AdrianG | no matter what measure we are talking about it. | 13:07 |
| kirka | >keep up with controls | 13:07 |
| kirka | That's pure socialism | 13:07 |
| AdrianG | lol wat | 13:07 |
| lws | kirka: You don't respect it, because you don't acknowledge it. People like you are the reason why people with ADHD who are on medication are looked down upon. | 13:07 |
| AdrianG | kirka is the reason mental illness is stigmatised still. | 13:07 |
| lws | I shouldn't be scorned because I choose to take medication for a condition I have. | 13:07 |
| AdrianG | it is just as legitimate. | 13:07 |
| lws | "I respect it, but I'm going to tell you you're fine and you shouldn't take medication." | 13:08 |
| kirka | Maybe you misunderstood me. I just don't like when, e.g. parents make their shildren be "medicated" with mind altering drugs. | 13:08 |
| lws | Cognitive dissonance at it's finest. | 13:08 |
| kirka | *children | 13:08 |
| AdrianG | because otherwise their kids will fail at life? | 13:08 |
| kirka | Wow | 13:08 |
| AdrianG | should parents be reprimanded for making other choices for their kids as well? | 13:08 |
| kirka | Well, that's one of most serious dangerous choices. | 13:09 |
| kirka | My point of view is libertarian. | 13:09 |
| lws | Bad parent! Don't choose what cereal your children should eat! | 13:09 |
| AdrianG | "mind altering" lol | 13:09 |
| lws | Bad parent! don't choose what clothes your children wear! | 13:09 |
| AdrianG | kirka: is intranasal insulin mind-altering? | 13:09 |
| AdrianG | what about calcium channel blockers ? | 13:09 |
| AdrianG | or TTX sodium channel blockers? | 13:09 |
| kirka | Haven't read/heard/used them | 13:09 |
| AdrianG | epilepsy drugs are mind-altering. | 13:10 |
| lws | How are you even in Hplus if you're against all this stuff? | 13:10 |
| AdrianG | should they stop giving them to children? | 13:10 |
| AdrianG | piracetam - mind altering. | 13:10 |
| kirka | Yes | 13:10 |
| kirka | Nootrope | 13:10 |
| AdrianG | any and all drug that has central effects is mind altering by definition. | 13:10 |
| kirka | Yes it is. | 13:10 |
| AdrianG | should they stop giving them to children? | 13:10 |
| AdrianG | what about omega3? another evil drug? | 13:10 |
| AdrianG | zomg fish oil for kids ?!??!?!?!? | 13:10 |
| AdrianG | srsly. | 13:10 |
| lws | Exercise! Mind altering! | 13:11 |
| kirka | I think that I should inform them on all possible side effects, and if they don't like it, I won't give that to them. Isn't it the only ethical choice? | 13:11 |
| lws | Sugar! no sugar for you children! | 13:11 |
| AdrianG | kirka: low doses of stimulants are incredibly safe. | 13:11 |
| AdrianG | on the balance of benefits and risks they are a godsend for somebody with adhd. | 13:11 |
| kirka | I would rather become "failure in life" than eating some weird stuff and becoming another human. | 13:12 |
| AdrianG | another human? | 13:12 |
| AdrianG | kirka i think just has a problem with eating chemicals lol | 13:12 |
| eudoxia | maybe the other human is a better human | 13:12 |
| AdrianG | you dont become another human. | 13:12 |
| AdrianG | you become a better self. | 13:12 |
| kirka | eudoxia I think that it's up to subject to decide the best way, as he has free will. | 13:13 |
| eudoxia | oh sure, but children can't consent | 13:13 |
| kirka | Actually that's the large problem with parenting. | 13:13 |
| AdrianG | parents consent on their behalf as legal custodians. | 13:13 |
| @kanzure | lws: i promise we're not usually this stupid in here | 13:13 |
| eudoxia | what AdrianG said | 13:13 |
| AdrianG | if my child will display any symptoms of adhd that I can recognize. | 13:14 |
| eudoxia | it's not just a legal matter, children just can't consent. kids are stupid. | 13:14 |
| AdrianG | I'll have him drugged immediately with "mind-altering drugs" | 13:14 |
| kirka | That's sad. | 13:14 |
| kirka | You know, symptoms of ADHD are som wide | 13:14 |
| AdrianG | kids will never appreciate it ofc. | 13:14 |
| kirka | *so | 13:14 |
| AdrianG | they'll either be mad at u for putting them on drugs | 13:14 |
| kirka | You can find it in any human | 13:15 |
| AdrianG | but if u dont put them on it, they'll be mad for not medicating them | 13:15 |
| kirka | That's your local US consensus | 13:15 |
| AdrianG | kirka: nope, wrong. | 13:15 |
| AdrianG | I did not grow up in the US. | 13:15 |
| AdrianG | never even lived in the US. I came to study in canada, on scholarship, i never left, he he. | 13:16 |
| @kanzure | kirka: i suspect you haven't actually read any of the adhd research | 13:16 |
| eudoxia | let them be mad | 13:16 |
| @kanzure | the stimulant response that lws was talking about isn't just made up | 13:16 |
| AdrianG | kirka's attitude is very common in russia. | 13:16 |
| kirka | kanzure Well, I have, a little. | 13:16 |
| @kanzure | and you think they are lying ? | 13:16 |
| AdrianG | I have relatives in that country, its sad. | 13:16 |
| kirka | I'm not | 13:16 |
| @kanzure | huh? | 13:16 |
| kirka | That's a philosophical problem. | 13:16 |
| AdrianG | enormous stigma against -any- mental illness, even depression | 13:16 |
| @kanzure | i said, do you think those researchers are lying? | 13:16 |
| kirka | Nope | 13:16 |
| AdrianG | nobody thinks depression is real in russia | 13:16 |
| kirka | Well, I don't think so | 13:16 |
| kirka | People get tired from time to time | 13:17 |
| kirka | That means they work too hard and ned rest. | 13:17 |
| kirka | That's all about it. | 13:17 |
| @kanzure | do you have an actual refutation to research about depression, or are you bullshitting us? | 13:17 |
| AdrianG | lol "get tired from time to time" | 13:17 |
| AdrianG | pfft | 13:17 |
| * AdrianG gives up on kirka | 13:17 | |
| AdrianG | kirka: are you in moscow? | 13:18 |
| kirka | Actually there begins such situation in Russia: in some daycare faculties children eat "food additives" that make them sleep for 2 hours. That make daycare workers' work easier. | 13:18 |
| kirka | Nope | 13:18 |
| kirka | Saint Petersburg. | 13:18 |
| @kanzure | i don't understand why you are bringing up food additives | 13:18 |
| @kanzure | my question was do you have specific research you can cite that disproves depression | 13:19 |
| kirka | Thay are just called so | 13:19 |
| @kanzure | or related diseases. | 13:19 |
| kirka | That's some ыдуузштп ьувсшту | 13:19 |
| kirka | sleeping medcine | 13:19 |
| AdrianG | unfortunately, i think this is just a cultural backlash against abuses of psychiatry during commie times | 13:19 |
| kirka | kanzure How do I "prove disease"? | 13:19 |
| @kanzure | i am having trouble following your line of thought | 13:19 |
| AdrianG | like compulsory medication of "sluggish schizophrenia" | 13:20 |
| kirka | My position is simple | 13:20 |
| AdrianG | he's just been conditioned that way. | 13:20 |
| @kanzure | kirka: i am asking you to cite research that proves that depression isn't a disease | 13:20 |
| kirka | "Mental illnesses are subjective" | 13:20 |
| @kanzure | depression has a distinct neuroanatomical footprint | 13:20 |
| @kanzure | autism does as well | 13:20 |
| kirka | Can you give me a research that proves that it's a disease? | 13:20 |
| @kanzure | yes | 13:20 |
| kirka | I'll read it | 13:20 |
| AdrianG | kirka: are you familiar with dr. salopolsky | 13:21 |
| kirka | But I don't think that it "proves" that fact. | 13:21 |
| AdrianG | pls read his publications. | 13:21 |
| AdrianG | whats next | 13:21 |
| AdrianG | downs syndrome isnt real? | 13:21 |
| @kanzure | kirka: wait while i pull up the papers. | 13:21 |
| kirka | I just hate that I could easiliy be said to have ADHD. | 13:21 |
| kirka | The symtoms are soo wide | 13:21 |
| @kanzure | why do you hate that ? | 13:22 |
| kirka | And any samrt human from math schhol could be described as "having ADHD" or "autism" or "asperger's" | 13:22 |
| AdrianG | they are not wide. | 13:22 |
| AdrianG | adhd is very distinct from autism. | 13:22 |
| AdrianG | or aspergers. | 13:22 |
| kirka | Because I could be drugged and lived another life | 13:22 |
| kirka | Against my will. | 13:22 |
| AdrianG | in fact, i think DSM V is doing great disservice to aspergers. | 13:22 |
| @kanzure | what do you mean "lived another life" | 13:23 |
| @kanzure | i don't understand | 13:23 |
| kirka | Well, drugs change behaviour | 13:23 |
| @kanzure | so does food, so what ? | 13:23 |
| kirka | behaviour influences choices one makes | 13:23 |
| kirka | Drugs change it more radically | 13:23 |
| kirka | Mood, concentration | 13:23 |
| kirka | Maybe my interests were different | 13:24 |
| AdrianG | heh | 13:24 |
| AdrianG | kirka: its very easy to find | 13:24 |
| AdrianG | just do CPT-II. | 13:24 |
| @kanzure | kirka: depression is debilitating and prevents you from making choices. | 13:24 |
| @kanzure | so in those cases you don't even make choices in the first place | 13:24 |
| kirka | Depression just means that you need to rest | 13:24 |
| Mariu | kanzure: indeed | 13:25 |
| AdrianG | http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/pebl/index.php?title=PEBL_Continuous_Performance_Test | 13:25 |
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| AdrianG | download it. and test yourself. | 13:25 |
| kirka | Anyway, what's your political/philosophical stance? | 13:25 |
| AdrianG | depression is a very insidious, very harmful disease. | 13:25 |
| @kanzure | kirka: my political stance is that you're full of shit | 13:25 |
| kirka | AdrianG Sorry, don't like tests | 13:25 |
| AdrianG | kirka: why | 13:25 |
| AdrianG | because they produce objective measurements of your behavior? | 13:25 |
| @kanzure | kirka: i think you have been misinformed. depression doesn't mean anything about rest.. | 13:25 |
| AdrianG | quantified. solid. numerical. | 13:25 |
| kirka | Thwy are shallow | 13:25 |
| @kanzure | depression doesn't mean you're "sad" | 13:26 |
| kirka | And have no real basis | 13:26 |
| @kanzure | depression doesn't mean that you have had a bad day and are upset | 13:26 |
| AdrianG | kirka: so you cannot measure how memory performs with tests? | 13:26 |
| kirka | Maybe I haven't real depression than, could be. If I'm tired I just go to sleep. | 13:26 |
| kirka | AdrianG Why should I do it? | 13:26 |
| @kanzure | nobody said you were depressed | 13:26 |
| kirka | kanzure Yes | 13:27 |
| AdrianG | kirka: you will know how well your working memory performs. as well as how well is your executive functions are working. | 13:27 |
| AdrianG | its a simple test. | 13:27 |
| kirka | Interesting position you have, deciding future for your children. If may parents were like that, I would be an artist. | 13:27 |
| kirka | AdrianG I'm satisfied with my memory, really. | 13:28 |
| kirka | AdrianG And with my executive functions. | 13:28 |
| AdrianG | kirka: its not about deciding their fate. | 13:28 |
| AdrianG | it is to allow them to enjoy full ability. | 13:28 |
| AdrianG | instead of limping along. | 13:28 |
| @kanzure | kirka: http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/data/Journals/PSYCH/5232/yoa40146.pdf | 13:28 |
| AdrianG | would you not buy your children crutches? or tell them to man up and limp along? | 13:28 |
| @kanzure | "unctional Neuroanatomical Substrates of Altered Reward Processing in Major Depressive Disorder Revealed by a Dopaminergic Probe" | 13:28 |
| kirka | Well, on meds they could get BS in colledge, withou they can drop out and become pizza couriers or someting. | 13:28 |
| kirka | kanzure Ok | 13:29 |
| AdrianG | kirka: I have a graduate degree. | 13:29 |
| AdrianG | and I recieved it before I even knew I had ADHD. | 13:29 |
| AdrianG | I knew something was fucked, but never found out until later. | 13:29 |
| kirka | Oh guys, thats's painful question for you, probably | 13:30 |
| kirka | I didn't mean to hurt you | 13:30 |
| @kanzure | ? | 13:30 |
| @kanzure | what ? | 13:30 |
| kirka | I just don't want that my children would be medicated | 13:30 |
| kirka | kanzure That's not about you | 13:30 |
| kirka | AdrianG and lws | 13:30 |
| kirka | *medicated against some subjective illness | 13:30 |
| AdrianG | lol "subjective" | 13:31 |
| AdrianG | it is not subjective. | 13:31 |
| AdrianG | at all. | 13:31 |
| AdrianG | it is very much quantifiable. | 13:31 |
| @kanzure | kirka, if you blow up the cerebellum, is that subjective? | 13:31 |
| kirka | It is. Doctors and association decide what to call an illness. | 13:31 |
| @kanzure | what if you irradiate the amygdala? is that still subjective? | 13:31 |
| AdrianG | kirka: lol who has to decide then? | 13:31 |
| AdrianG | who is the final instance of "objective" truth | 13:31 |
| kirka | kanzure That's extremities | 13:32 |
| eudoxia | if parents can't decide their kids' future, then who will do that? certainly not the kids. the community? the state? | 13:32 |
| kirka | AdrianG That is, there is no. | 13:32 |
| AdrianG | doctors will often prescribe off-label, for a bs dx | 13:32 |
| AdrianG | if they know it will help you. | 13:32 |
| AdrianG | good doctors - help you. | 13:32 |
| @kanzure | kirka: the brain is knowable. | 13:32 |
| AdrianG | nobody, and most certainly in north america is going to medicate somebody compulsory. | 13:32 |
| AdrianG | not even on psychiatric hold. | 13:32 |
| @kanzure | i think you said earlier that we don't understand the brain at all | 13:32 |
| kirka | eudoxia The kids, of course, Parents can propose something, that's all. | 13:32 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOAgplgTxfc is pretty good for showing both the cognitive and the biochemical side of things | 13:32 |
| AdrianG | lol | 13:33 |
| eudoxia | kids | 13:33 |
| eudoxia | can't | 13:33 |
| eudoxia | consent | 13:33 |
| AdrianG | 5 year old kids will decide | 13:33 |
| AdrianG | about their health | 13:33 |
| AdrianG | an educated choice. | 13:33 |
| eudoxia | and i don't see how that's incompatible with libertarian or anarchist idas | 13:33 |
| @kanzure | let's not bring kids into the question. | 13:33 |
| eudoxia | ideas* | 13:33 |
| kirka | kanzure It is, but we don't have enough information. Just some vague models. | 13:33 |
| @kanzure | they aren't that vague. you should look some time. | 13:33 |
| kirka | eudoxia Why do you take that as imperative? | 13:33 |
| AdrianG | neuropsychiatric tests are not vague. | 13:33 |
| eudoxia | which part | 13:33 |
| AdrianG | either your memory is good, or it isnt. | 13:33 |
| AdrianG | same with attention. its either good, or not. | 13:33 |
| AdrianG | kirka: is dementia real? | 13:34 |
| AdrianG | do you believe its real? or subjectve | 13:34 |
| jrayhawk | http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.com/2012/03/depression-genetic-faustian-bargain.html http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.com/2012/11/inflammation-and-depression-cause-or.html discuss the etiology a little better | 13:34 |
| eudoxia | the part where i said 5 year olds with no sense of rationality or mortality or anything shouldn't make medical decisions | 13:34 |
| AdrianG | jrayhawk: oh pls | 13:34 |
| AdrianG | thats just a very newish theory | 13:34 |
| AdrianG | let it prove itself first. | 13:35 |
| AdrianG | before it becomes THE etiology. | 13:35 |
| jrayhawk | 'The science, doctrine, or demonstration of causes' | 13:35 |
| kirka | Why are some deviations from behavioural mean allowed and some aren't? (assuming they don't harm other subjects like maniac shooting) | 13:35 |
| kirka | eudoxia I always knew what I wanted. | 13:36 |
| @kanzure | kirka: we're still trying to diagnose your understanding of neurobiology first | 13:36 |
| jrayhawk | is this like weirdo nihilism where there are multiple sciences dependant upon agency | 13:36 |
| kirka | eudoxia Why should I think that my children don't know? | 13:36 |
| @kanzure | kirka: i think bringing children into the question is too complex, especially since the basics aren't yet solidifed | 13:36 |
| kirka | kanzure That's question of ethics, not neuroscience. | 13:36 |
| kirka | That's scary | 13:37 |
| @kanzure | if you don't even believe the brain is understandable, then why would you pretend to understand or assume your child's brain can do anything? so leave them out for the moment. | 13:37 |
| eudoxia | oh ethics | 13:37 |
| kirka | Yes, ethics | 13:37 |
| kirka | For me it's imperative not to force other subjects into decisions, especially my children. | 13:39 |
| kirka | I want that others applied the same principle when dealing with me. | 13:39 |
| kirka | Isn't it rational? | 13:39 |
| @kanzure | do you have children? | 13:39 |
| kirka | I just know to much people that don't like their life because someone made decisions for them. | 13:39 |
| kirka | Not yet. | 13:40 |
| kirka | Laso, because I'm not ready for that. | 13:40 |
| kirka | *Also | 13:40 |
| @kanzure | what does any of this have to do with whether or not depression is real | 13:40 |
| kirka | Parenting is a complex thing. | 13:40 |
| @kanzure | i am confused. | 13:40 |
| kirka | If you say that it's illness you make basis for forcing someone to take antidepressants | 13:40 |
| AdrianG | why forcing? | 13:41 |
| AdrianG | nobody is ever forced. | 13:41 |
| AdrianG | they are offered help. yes. | 13:41 |
| kirka | Heh | 13:41 |
| AdrianG | nobody EVER been forcefully medicated for depression. | 13:41 |
| AdrianG | not a single person in the history of this universe. | 13:41 |
| kirka | It's a question of defintion of "applying force". I think lots of people are forced to take medications by social pressure. I find it bad. | 13:42 |
| @kanzure | kirka: saying it's not an illness doesn't make people more healthy | 13:42 |
| jrayhawk | suicidal ideation is a major part of depression, and it is forcibly medicated rather often. | 13:42 |
| kirka | Let the people decide what to do with their bodies and minds. | 13:43 |
| @kanzure | kirka: that's the part of them that is diseased | 13:43 |
| kirka | For me it's natural. | 13:43 |
| kirka | "diseased" | 13:43 |
| kirka | You know, nazis believed that every jew is genetically diseased | 13:43 |
| @kanzure | kirka: yes, it's a disease. things get broken. | 13:43 |
| kirka | And you could say that by phenotype | 13:43 |
| @kanzure | every jew is genetically diseased, and so is everyone else on the planet. who cares? | 13:43 |
| kirka | >broken | 13:43 |
| curt1s | im jew | 13:44 |
| jrayhawk | unfortunately those with suicidal ideation are a major threat to themselves and others and their decisions have a lot of externalities | 13:44 |
| kirka | It's not like the bone is broken | 13:44 |
| curt1s | i have a lot of old jewman conditions | 13:44 |
| curt1s | such as eczema | 13:44 |
| curt1s | blepharitis | 13:44 |
| kirka | jrayhawk I think people have right to die. Isn't it natural? | 13:44 |
| curt1s | above-average nose size | 13:44 |
| curt1s | circumcized dong | 13:44 |
| @kanzure | kirka: the point is that the brain actually changes | 13:44 |
| kirka | curt1s I may have some jewish blood too, but I'm not sure. | 13:44 |
| @kanzure | kirka: depression isn't the brain's normal operating mode. | 13:44 |
| jrayhawk | it's also natural for your psychopaths to murder you | 13:44 |
| kirka | Yes but they aren't different from murderes then | 13:45 |
| kirka | As pedophile isn't different from usual rapist | 13:45 |
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| jrayhawk | at some point economic externalities become an issue. | 13:45 |
| kirka | Isn't that obvious? | 13:45 |
| jrayhawk | I would hope so, but you don't seem to be thinking about them. | 13:45 |
| kirka | So in the end children are forced to take drugs to frow countries' GDP. I knew that haha | 13:46 |
| kirka | jrayhaawk I believe everybody should think for himself | 13:46 |
| @kanzure | the brain is the part that gets broken and thinking is impaired | 13:46 |
| kirka | Actually, isn't there any on libertarian? | 13:46 |
| kirka | kanzure Thinking can work in so diffirent way, that it's complex to syat when it's broken. | 13:47 |
| jrayhawk | If you want to claim that the efficacy and cost of treatment is such that suicide is more prudent under a variety of different value systems, that'd be one thing. | 13:47 |
| kirka | *say | 13:47 |
| jrayhawk | Describing it as virtuous because it's natural is silly. | 13:47 |
| kirka | >efficacy | 13:48 |
| kirka | 5-level plans? Gone through that. There is no country level or society level efficiency. | 13:48 |
| kirka | Guys you look like leftists | 13:48 |
| kirka | I know some | 13:48 |
| kirka | And thwy have similar views | 13:48 |
| @kanzure | do you think that depression is virtuous because it's natural? | 13:48 |
| kirka | E.g. "Society should forcefully vure drug addicts" etc. | 13:48 |
| kirka | I think that children should have infromed choice in case of medication. | 13:49 |
| kirka | That;s all | 13:49 |
| @kanzure | that's not what i asked. | 13:49 |
| AdrianG | kirka has some serious cognitive distortions | 13:49 |
| @kanzure | let him speak | 13:50 |
| AdrianG | whats his obsession with forced treatment | 13:50 |
| AdrianG | nobody is forced. | 13:50 |
| kirka | I think that relation to depression is personal. I know people who like depression. | 13:50 |
| AdrianG | many kids dont take the pills, btw. | 13:50 |
| AdrianG | i know some like that. | 13:50 |
| AdrianG | he told me he'd spit them out every time. | 13:50 |
| kirka | If they like then it's good for them. | 13:50 |
| @kanzure | what | 13:50 |
| jrayhawk | 'forced' might be the wrong word to use. 'coerced' is probably a more useful word. | 13:51 |
| kirka | jrayhawk Indeed. | 13:51 |
| jrayhawk | though the distinction seems a bit silly to me. | 13:51 |
| chris_99 | "people who like depression" isn't that an oxymoron? | 13:51 |
| kirka | jrayhawk What's your opinion? | 13:51 |
| kirka | chris_99 I don't think so. | 13:51 |
| kirka | chris_99 They like this mood. | 13:52 |
| @kanzure | it isn't a mood -_- | 13:52 |
| jrayhawk | kirka: so, say you have a penniless hungry person. is it better for that person to steal groceries and go to jail, or better to provide them food stamps? | 13:52 |
| kirka | How do you differentiate? | 13:52 |
| AdrianG | what? | 13:52 |
| kirka | jrayhawk I think they should go to work. | 13:52 |
| kirka | jrayhawk If they steal something it's natural to go to jail. | 13:53 |
| AdrianG | lol | 13:53 |
| jrayhawk | Yes, it is natural. | 13:53 |
| AdrianG | kirka probably thinks schizophrenics must recieve death penalty | 13:53 |
| AdrianG | if they hurt anyone | 13:53 |
| kirka | AdranG Dark mood/ennui and depression? | 13:53 |
| jrayhawk | It does, however, cost ten times as much in externalities for them to go to jail than to be given food stamps. | 13:53 |
| kirka | AdrianG Not at all. | 13:53 |
| kirka | jrayhawk Costs to whom? | 13:53 |
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| jrayhawk | Taxpayers, typically. | 13:54 |
| kirka | Maybe you wanted to say "society" or "collective"? | 13:54 |
| jrayhawk | Inmate costs are around $500/wk and food stamps are around $50/wk | 13:54 |
| jrayhawk | Sure, whatever. | 13:54 |
| AdrianG | its hard to go to work if you are in jail, kirka | 13:54 |
| AdrianG | thats why stamps are better. use logic. | 13:54 |
| @kanzure | AdrianG: hush | 13:54 |
| kirka | -__- | 13:54 |
| AdrianG | kanzure: why u hate me. | 13:54 |
| jrayhawk | It's a useful point. | 13:54 |
| kirka | Oh. | 13:55 |
| AdrianG | I am even spelling properly, u nazi. | 13:55 |
| @kanzure | AdrianG: joey is trying to debug kirka and you keep distracting kirka | 13:55 |
| jrayhawk | eh, i might leave abruptly anyway | 13:55 |
| @kanzure | ah okay | 13:55 |
| kirka | jrayhawk Do you like socialism? Be honest, please. | 13:55 |
| kirka | Your point of view is leftist. | 13:56 |
| jrayhawk | No, I have a strong natural law tendency that actually gives me a similar cognitive distortion as you. | 13:56 |
| jrayhawk | I think stealing $50 from other people is one hell of a lot better than stealing $500 from other people, however. | 13:56 |
| jrayhawk | If it's even appropriate to put it in those terms. | 13:57 |
| kirka | >distortion | 13:57 |
| kirka | How do I know the original information, If everybody has some kind of distortion? | 13:57 |
| kirka | Why not count your own processed information as original in the case? | 13:57 |
| kirka | You know, that's econ. question | 13:57 |
| kirka | If people will know that they will have free lunch, they won't work | 13:58 |
| @kanzure | speak for yourself | 13:58 |
| kirka | And some day there will be 10 freeloaders on one possible jailed | 13:58 |
| jrayhawk | People in jail aren't about to get jobs, either. | 13:58 |
| jrayhawk | By this view all charity is evil. | 13:59 |
| kirka | But thThey made a crime and should be punished (by a contract thwy have with state, called constitution, or federal law) | 13:59 |
| kirka | Tax-payed charity is evil, of course | 13:59 |
| kirka | Why should people who don't work earn money? | 13:59 |
| kirka | That's not evolutionary stable strategy | 14:00 |
| jrayhawk | Food stamps keep people alive. They don't make people comfortable. | 14:00 |
| kirka | Such society will collapse one day | 14:00 |
| kirka | Comfort is relative. | 14:00 |
| kirka | They could work, thwy could grow their own food (there is anough land), but they don't do it | 14:00 |
| kirka | Because they get free breakfast and dinner | 14:01 |
| kirka | Why should I pay for that? | 14:01 |
| kirka | That's a problem with Europe and US now. | 14:01 |
| kirka | Taxes are high, there is a lot of freeloaders. | 14:01 |
| @kanzure | you should pay for it because it is cheaper than paying for them to be in prison | 14:01 |
| AdrianG | jail breakfast sucks. u ever had it? | 14:02 |
| kirka | Actually, they could be forced to pay their debt back | 14:02 |
| kirka | E.g. that stolen food | 14:02 |
| jrayhawk | Self-determinism works only for those that have the privilege of having a sound upbringing. | 14:03 |
| kirka | That's just your personal opinion. | 14:03 |
| kirka | I don;t understand why should it influence other people. | 14:04 |
| kirka | Again, I always knew what I want. | 14:04 |
| jrayhawk | Other people don't have a choice on their upbringing. If you haven't been taught to, for instance, advocate for yourself, it is highly unlikely you will find a job. | 14:04 |
| AdrianG | most penniless hobos are schizophrenics, actually. | 14:05 |
| kirka | -___ | 14:05 |
| kirka | -__- | 14:05 |
| AdrianG | the overwhelming part of homeless are. | 14:05 |
| jrayhawk | Your belief in natural law is one that appears to largely be built on a privileged perspective. | 14:05 |
| kirka | I don't think so | 14:05 |
| jrayhawk | I do not wish to attack your privilege; it allows you to be more effective than most people. | 14:05 |
| kirka | It always was built into me. | 14:06 |
| jrayhawk | Just to point out that not everyone is as fortunate. | 14:06 |
| kirka | The only natural way of life. | 14:06 |
| AdrianG | ? | 14:06 |
| AdrianG | the only natural way of life is to be privileged? | 14:06 |
| AdrianG | lol wat | 14:06 |
| AdrianG | jrayhawk: it is a hopeless case thx for trying | 14:06 |
| kirka | I believe in free will, not in natural law. | 14:07 |
| AdrianG | what if your will is impaired | 14:07 |
| jrayhawk | It's more "The natural way of life is for the unprivileged to suffer, and possibly cost the privileged a lot of money." | 14:07 |
| @kanzure | kirka: can you show me where in the brain free will exists? | 14:07 |
| kirka | I think that everything that interferes with free will is evil, and from utilitarian point of view has negative effects on economy. | 14:07 |
| AdrianG | I do not even want to mention abulia. | 14:07 |
| kirka | kanzure I don't know. Can you prove that it doesn't exist? | 14:08 |
| kirka | jrayhawk Nope | 14:08 |
| @kanzure | kirka: i can't prove a negative | 14:08 |
| jrayhawk | "and the privileged will do a lot of ineffectual bitching about the unprivileged because the privileged are tragically myopic about the possibility of uplifting" | 14:08 |
| kirka | jrayhawk I would be an artist if I listened to parents. Mediocre artist probably. | 14:08 |
| kirka | kanzure So that's a question of preference. Does my belief hurt someone? | 14:09 |
| jrayhawk | http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=food+stamps you can test your assumptions fairly easily | 14:09 |
| @kanzure | i think your belief is uninformed and you should read more science. | 14:09 |
| kirka | jrayhawk I don't see myself as priviligued in any sense | 14:09 |
| kirka | Middle class income | 14:09 |
| kirka | Like 60% in any developed country | 14:09 |
| kirka | What's privilegued about that? | 14:09 |
| jrayhawk | Where did you learn the value of self-determinism from? | 14:10 |
| kirka | kanzure Here the question becomes even more philisophical and you don't like that. | 14:10 |
| kirka | jrayhawk I don't know | 14:10 |
| @kanzure | who says i don't like it? you're a liar. | 14:10 |
| kirka | jrayhawk I though a lot about subjects and their relations in childhood. | 14:11 |
| kirka | kanzure Sorry, then. | 14:11 |
| jrayhawk | That's good. Most people don't have that opportunity. | 14:11 |
| jrayhawk | Ugh, I need to leave. | 14:11 |
| kirka | jrayhawk I understood that it's not hard to build a house and grow my own food, so I will have possibility of independence anyway. | 14:12 |
| kirka | Bye | 14:12 |
| kirka | Guys, I asked threee times about your political and philosophical stance. | 14:12 |
| kirka | You seem lefties to me. | 14:12 |
| @kanzure | lefty sounds like a useless label to me | 14:12 |
| Mariu | :p | 14:13 |
| kirka | Socialist, communist | 14:13 |
| @kanzure | those terms have a lot of baggage in the US and are not useful | 14:13 |
| @kanzure | because their meaning is so generalized | 14:13 |
| eudoxia | wait i thought everyone here was an anarcho-transhumanist | 14:13 |
| AdrianG | eudoxia: you thought wrong | 14:13 |
| AdrianG | we are all commie lefties. | 14:13 |
| @kanzure | in general, our position is providing extreme carefulness when thinking about issues | 14:13 |
| Mariu | lol | 14:13 |
| kirka | There are different degress, but the main idea is that they place society above individual. | 14:13 |
| @kanzure | subscribing to an entire political banner is going to lead to carelessness | 14:13 |
| kirka | Well, I'm anarcho-capitalist. | 14:14 |
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| @kanzure | who cares | 14:14 |
| @kanzure | the reason why i usually don't allow philosophy in here is because everyone is so awful at it | 14:14 |
| kirka | Hmm. | 14:14 |
| kirka | What's awful about it? | 14:15 |
| kirka | Just generic libertarian philosophy. | 14:15 |
| @kanzure | their understanding of philosophy, transhumanism, and so on. | 14:15 |
| @kanzure | it hurts me. | 14:15 |
| kirka | I'm not h+, just humanist. | 14:15 |
| AdrianG | a label cannot fully describe each persons views and aspirations. | 14:15 |
| kirka | Of course. | 14:15 |
| AdrianG | at most, its very, very, rough guide perhaps | 14:15 |
| @kanzure | yes, i know you're not interested in self-improvement kirka | 14:15 |
| AdrianG | to the point of useless. | 14:15 |
| kirka | I am | 14:15 |
| @kanzure | kirka: you just said you're not a transhumanist | 14:15 |
| kirka | But there is no need in radical self improvement. | 14:16 |
| kirka | For me, of course. | 14:16 |
| @kanzure | what? | 14:16 |
| @kanzure | what? | 14:16 |
| kirka | What's the difference between humanism and transhumanism? | 14:16 |
| @kanzure | transhumanism is a personal philosophy of technological self-improvement | 14:16 |
| @kanzure | and accelerating returns on top of said improvements | 14:17 |
| kirka | Humanism places human being into the center, and searches for perfection in human sense. | 14:17 |
| @kanzure | i don't think humanism is about perfection, no | 14:17 |
| eudoxia | lol perfection | 14:17 |
| kirka | Why? | 14:17 |
| @kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism doesn't even have the word 'perfect' anywhere | 14:17 |
| AdrianG | lol kirka requires no radical improvement | 14:18 |
| AdrianG | he has achieved perfection. | 14:18 |
| Mariu | :p | 14:18 |
| kirka | Actually, I feel good in this body and mind. | 14:18 |
| @kanzure | nobody said otherwise kirka | 14:18 |
| kirka | I just want to live longer. | 14:18 |
| Mariu | how much longer ? | 14:19 |
| @kanzure | life extension is transhumanist. | 14:19 |
| kirka | Hmmph, wiki [...] | 14:19 |
| @kanzure | i think you have been misinformed about transhumanism. | 14:19 |
| kirka | Then transhumanism is everything | 14:19 |
| @kanzure | what? | 14:19 |
| Mariu | xD | 14:19 |
| jrayhawk | if it helps I don't think I have ever voted anything other than libertarian for president | 14:19 |
| @kanzure | jrayhawk: aren't you supposed to be driving | 14:19 |
| kirka | I think there is a border between radical and conservative slef improvement. | 14:19 |
| jrayhawk | yeah probably | 14:20 |
| kirka | jrayhawk Cool. | 14:20 |
| kirka | E.g. copying one's mind, or seriously altering brain is radical | 14:20 |
| jrayhawk | "Capital L" Libertarianism is pretty much synonymous with "has no real understanding of externalities" to me, though. | 14:20 |
| kirka | While repairing damaged tissue is conservative. | 14:21 |
| @kanzure | why is it conservative? | 14:21 |
| eudoxia | what do you mean? | 14:21 |
| eudoxia | (jrayhawk) | 14:21 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: in the us, Libertarianism and libertarianism are two different things. | 14:21 |
| kirka | jrayhawk Didn't Pareto prove that in abscence of coercion free market comes to Pareto optimality? | 14:21 |
| eudoxia | whut | 14:23 |
| kirka | Any coercion can only make cumulative happiness lower. | 14:24 |
| eudoxia | i was actually asking kanz | 14:24 |
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| eudoxia | something about the difference between "votes libertarian" libertarian or "votes republican" libertarian? | 14:24 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: don't bring me into this | 14:24 |
| kirka | Hehe | 14:24 |
| eudoxia | lol | 14:25 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: i'm sorry that US politics is so messy, but i'm sure some other website wll be able to help you with Libertarianism/libertarianism | 14:25 |
| @kanzure | *will | 14:25 |
| archbox | what are the best life extension drugs after basic vitamins? | 14:25 |
| eudoxia | oh no i just realized i'm reading the definition on conservapedia | 14:26 |
| Mariu | :o | 14:26 |
| kirka | "If a human being doesn't hurt other human beings, then it shoudn't matter if his brain is 'broken' due to some criterion or not." | 14:28 |
| kirka | Ok, I think this question is settled. | 14:30 |
| eudoxia | watching SVU, can't debate | 14:30 |
| kirka | SVU? | 14:33 |
| eudoxia | tv series, closest thing available to the late law & order | 14:34 |
| eudoxia | did you register on transhumani already? | 14:36 |
| @kanzure | pfft don't be pimping transhumani in here, splitter | 14:37 |
| kirka | Well, "Dopamine-related neuroanatomical sub-strates are involved in altered reward processing in MDD". Surely there is some neural corellate to any emotional state. Are there other implications? | 14:38 |
| kirka | eudoxia Not yet, I'll do it when I'll contribute to some article. | 14:38 |
| eudoxia | ok | 14:38 |
| kirka | Why should be altered reward process omething bad, or somethink requireing repair? | 14:40 |
| kirka | *something | 14:41 |
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| @kanzure | ParahSa1lin: yo | 14:46 |
| @kanzure | that's a wacky ip address | 14:46 |
| ParahSa1lin | kanzure you there? | 14:46 |
| @kanzure | 38.67.0.2? | 14:46 |
| ParahSa1lin | tried your phone | 14:47 |
| ParahSa1lin | you up for dinner? | 14:47 |
| @kanzure | oh oops, i was debugging a few things and turned off mobile data | 14:47 |
| @kanzure | try one more time | 14:48 |
| @kanzure | ParahSa1lin: actually, give me 20min to get to you | 14:53 |
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| * kirka sleeps | 14:56 | |
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| AdrianG | finally kirka left. | 15:48 |
| AdrianG | He was hurting my hippocampus. | 15:48 |
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| Urchin[Emacs] | looked like some crazy conversation | 15:58 |
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| @kanzure | bloop | 17:01 |
| @kanzure | basic verilog stuff http://www.gibiansky.com/2012/12/your-very-first-microprocessor.html | 17:12 |
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| @kanzure | https://event.on24.com/eventRegistration/EventLobbyServlet?target=registration.jsp&eventid=514004&sessionid=1&key=56BEFC4FBE3382B7EC1BFE402D403C4A&sourcepage=register&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_content=cb4962d7-4bd9-4a31-b291-30650e68f12c | 17:35 |
| @kanzure | this was a webinar on high-pressure ion chromatography sponsored by thermo fisher from a few months ago | 17:35 |
| @kanzure | any ideas where it was advertised? utm_source=twitter but from where? | 17:36 |
| juri_ | "As an adolescent I aspired to lasting fame, I craved factual certainty, and I thirsted for a meaningful vision of human life -- so I became a scientist. This is like becoming an archbishop so you can meet girls." -- Matt Cartmill | 18:01 |
| @kanzure | i didn't choose to be a bishop | 18:02 |
| @kanzure | perhaps i should upgrade my name from bishop to archbishop so i can be an even more powerful bishop | 18:03 |
| juri_ | wow. i have a lot of backlog to read. | 18:09 |
| juri_ | and kanzure: if i wasn't willing to reason, i wouldn't be here. Like most, i have a long history, which takes effort to overcome, and is a treasure trove, for resources. | 18:11 |
| juri_ | i used to understand enough chemistry to get the local police harassing me, rightfully. I was doing people favors, and doing them non-favors at the same time. I don't wish to repeat that part of my past. | 18:12 |
| juri_ | therefore, i'll stay out of the chemical side of H+. I'll just provide better technical tools, and put on some blinders about what people are then able to do with those toys. ;) | 18:15 |
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| @fenn | archbox: "what are the best life extension drugs after basic vitamins?" not eating sugar in the first place, blood sugar control such as metformin and various flavonoids, glycation endproduct breakers (which are still under development), DMAE (deanol), intermittent fasting | 18:55 |
| @fenn | possibly rasagiline (dopamine enhancer) | 18:56 |
| @fenn | and various hormone replacement therapies | 18:56 |
| jrayhawk | Re: Pareto optimality: only really works for rivalrous excludable goods | 18:57 |
| @fenn | there are several theories of aging which may all be correct: senescence due to telomere depletion, hormonal miscommunication, damage due to free radicals, damage due to glycation | 18:57 |
| jrayhawk | soooorta works on rivalrous nonexcludable and nonrivalrous excludable goods sometimes, basically never works on nonrivalrous nonexcludable goods. | 18:58 |
| @fenn | and maybe something about methylation | 18:58 |
| @fenn | sorta hard to draw the line of what's a vitamin anymore | 18:59 |
| @fenn | is PQQ a vitamin? | 18:59 |
| @fenn | oo there's even a "controversy" over whether it's a vitamin or not | 19:01 |
| @fenn | the great thing about curing aging is there are so many things to be fixed :\ | 19:02 |
| @fenn | possibly low dose radiation can extend lifespan | 19:04 |
| @fenn | there was that C60+olive oil study which i haven't followed up on | 19:04 |
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| brownies | hehehe | 19:18 |
| brownies | http://squid314.livejournal.com/346391.html | 19:18 |
| @kanzure | what is it? | 19:18 |
| brownies | my link? | 19:19 |
| brownies | it's some random guy who did a nice summary/analysis of many available studies regarding babies and IQ | 19:20 |
| @fenn | "how to have a baby the transhumanist way" | 19:20 |
| brownies | or, in layman's terms, "how to have the least stupid baby you can" | 19:20 |
| @fenn | or something like that | 19:20 |
| brownies | so far it seems like i should move to Portland and date women in their 20s | 19:20 |
| @fenn | that sounds like a good plan either way | 19:20 |
| brownies | yeah, i'm strangely ok with it. | 19:21 |
| @fenn | why does this page not wrap text correctly | 19:22 |
| brownies | it's LiveJournal. frankly i'm amazed it even exists. | 19:24 |
| @fenn | LiveJournal, the last bastion of long form blog posts | 19:26 |
| brownies | i thought that was... hm... no, i guess you're right. | 19:27 |
| @fenn | wrapping works fine in elinks :\ | 19:27 |
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| @fenn | he makes an interesting point about parasite load | 20:06 |
| JayDugger | Has he any suggestions about lowering parasite load, fenn? | 20:08 |
| @kanzure | diy reflow oven http://viennot.biz/reflow_oven.pdf | 20:10 |
| @fenn | JayDugger: yea, move to northern latitudes and don't enroll your kids in public school | 20:11 |
| JayDugger | I'm all for the former, and don't worry about the latter. Unfortunately, my wife has a veto. | 20:12 |
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| @kanzure | what | 20:23 |
| @kanzure | http://velvetpulse.com/2012/11/27/scribe-the-deterministic-transparent-record-replay-engine/ | 20:23 |
| @kanzure | "Scribe can be used to record application exeuction, then replay a slight modified application while tolerating certain divergence from the expected execution indicated in the logs." | 20:23 |
| @kanzure | "Scribe records application execution into a log file, and can later replay the same application from the log file. It has APIs to inspect the log files, to modify the logged execution, to control the recording and replaying and fiddle with its state." | 20:23 |
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| @kanzure | i'm pretty sure mreplay on that page is the blackest black magic i've ever seen | 20:37 |
| @fenn | it's just storing all the syscalls right? | 20:38 |
| @fenn | like what you see with strace | 20:39 |
| @kanzure | yes but then it replays against your new input and the original executable | 20:39 |
| @fenn | seems like that would be impossible to do for all input and code | 20:40 |
| @fenn | i.e. what if i modify the input to ask for the date, but the original run never bothered to check the date, where does it get that data? | 20:40 |
| @kanzure | check out the video near the middle, his wget example is alright | 20:40 |
| @fenn | wah. i hate videos | 20:40 |
| @fenn | also i don't have any working sound atm | 20:40 |
| @kanzure | also, regarding the date, it periodically logs the timestamp every second or so (apparently) | 20:41 |
| @fenn | what about ... everything else? | 20:41 |
| @kanzure | so when you encounter a new gettimeofday() in the execution | 20:41 |
| @kanzure | mreplay must figure out a consistent time to give | 20:41 |
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| @kanzure | “Mellophone, you say? Why, that’s the instrument of a budding virologist! Give this man a pipette!” | 20:53 |
| @kanzure | http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.org/career_magazine/previous_issues/articles/2012_12_14/caredit.a1200137 | 20:54 |
| @kanzure | "So I called each individual department and asked: When reading my application, would the committee rather see that I’m well-rounded or that I’m 100% dedicated to molecular biology?" | 20:54 |
| @kanzure | "“Um … 100% focused on molecular biology, please. The sheer fact that we’re having this conversation means that you possess communication skills, upon which we frown.”" | 20:54 |
| yashgaroth | "it says here that you require sleep? that's gonna be a deal breaker" | 21:00 |
| @fenn | "Mathematician Paul Erdős famously spent 19 hours a day doing math, and he may be the most prolific mathematician who ever lived." a methamphetamine success story for kirka | 21:10 |
| @fenn | though i get the impression most kids on ADHD medicine just play more pokemon | 21:11 |
| @kanzure | i'm allowed to do things other than typing down code dude :( | 21:12 |
| brownies | sometimes you can delete code too. | 21:13 |
| brownies | but that is IT. | 21:13 |
| @fenn | like michaelangelo, deleting everything that isn't the desired program | 21:14 |
| @fenn | the code is in /dev/random just begging to get out | 21:15 |
| @fenn | i'm sort of concerned by the "reram has a write endurance of more than 1 million cycles" which sounds pretty low for use as main memory | 21:16 |
| @fenn | i'm sure you could do hardware wear leveling | 21:17 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, can I relocate controller code in something akin to a helper? | 21:24 |
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| @kanzure | delinquentme: please don't | 21:36 |
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| Thorbinator | confession time: The inevitable gun control shitfest bothers me more than the actual act of mass murder | 22:17 |
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| yashgaroth | how so | 22:23 |
| brownies | "Scientists with outside interests are often regarded with suspicion in the lab; we can be seen as undedicated, unfocused, easily distracted, and so divorced from the scientific frame of mind that we’ll probably end up working in—oh, the shame—industry." | 22:26 |
| brownies | this article is hialrious | 22:26 |
| @kanzure | because it's so true :/ | 22:26 |
| delinquentme | shame industry? | 22:27 |
| @kanzure | no it said "working in, oh the shame, industry" | 22:27 |
| brownies | "Still another played 8 hours of video games a day—not a Batman job exactly, although it’s possible he sometimes played games involving Batman." | 22:28 |
| @kanzure | haha | 22:29 |
| delinquentme | why are kids acceptable hobbies? | 22:31 |
| delinquentme | also has anyone else LOVED seeing the research that sex and booze makes for a higher level of happiness than marriage and children? | 22:32 |
| erasmus | interesting channel, how do most here feel about disorders like Attention decifit? | 22:32 |
| @kanzure | what do you mean feel | 22:32 |
| erasmus | what opinions do you have about it | 22:32 |
| @kanzure | my opinion is fuck you let me have my stimulants | 22:33 |
| erasmus | do you think it's a made up disorder? | 22:33 |
| @kanzure | who cares? | 22:33 |
| @kanzure | just let me have my stimulants. | 22:33 |
| erasmus | I suppose I do. | 22:33 |
| @kanzure | whether or not it's fake doesn't matter if it produces results. | 22:33 |
| erasmus | kanzure which ones are you taking? | 22:33 |
| @kanzure | all of them | 22:33 |
| erasmus | which ones do you prefer | 22:33 |
| @kanzure | erm, i mean, dextroamphetamines. | 22:33 |
| erasmus | dex is nice | 22:33 |
| erasmus | how much dex can you take in a day? | 22:34 |
| @kanzure | i have never overdosed | 22:34 |
| brownies | uh | 22:34 |
| brownies | i don't think it's supposed to be a competition | 22:34 |
| erasmus | how many mg a day? | 22:34 |
| brownies | anyway, i know some folks that are *really* ADD | 22:34 |
| erasmus | brownies I take 2.5mg cause I'm hyper sensitive, you are right it's not a contest. | 22:34 |
| @kanzure | brownies: the reason i don't seem add is because i'm well medicated. | 22:34 |
| brownies | kanzure: yeah, i figured. | 22:35 |
| brownies | erasmus: what's the usual dose? | 22:35 |
| erasmus | I would say 10mg 3x a day for dex | 22:35 |
| @kanzure | 5mg, 10mg, 20mg, not much higher than 50mg | 22:35 |
| erasmus | but most use Concerta which is long lasting ritalin | 22:35 |
| @kanzure | but i've heard one person taking 100 mg/day | 22:35 |
| erasmus | Vyvanse is like long lasting Adderall | 22:35 |
| brownies | all of these dosages sound horrifying. | 22:35 |
| @kanzure | vyvanse isn't the same thing | 22:35 |
| @kanzure | adderall xr is the long lasting version of adderall | 22:35 |
| erasmus | it's very close | 22:36 |
| brownies | Adderall XR is long-lasting Adderall | 22:36 |
| @kanzure | vyvanse is their rebranding effort and their reformulation | 22:36 |
| erasmus | dex and adder all are more similar to each other then ritalin is | 22:36 |
| @kanzure | to get around patent expirations | 22:36 |
| brownies | what did they do to reformulate it? | 22:36 |
| @kanzure | add some bullshit | 22:36 |
| erasmus | fda also approved a liquid adder all recently | 22:36 |
| @kanzure | all i know is that vyvanse doesn't work for me. | 22:36 |
| brownies | i see. i don't really follow it all. i'm just curious. | 22:36 |
| erasmus | brownies say that again? | 22:36 |
| brownies | kanzure: now that is interesting. so it has a different mechanism of action? it's not an amphetamine? | 22:36 |
| erasmus | it's different salts or something like that | 22:37 |
| @kanzure | first, adderall has a proprietary delivery mechanism that they haven't released | 22:37 |
| erasmus | it's well known dex and add are more powerful then ritalin | 22:37 |
| @kanzure | second, yes there are different salts but it's also an extra -cooh group or something stupid | 22:37 |
| erasmus | they are more intense I guess is all | 22:37 |
| @kanzure | i haven't checked the patent. | 22:37 |
| erasmus | I don't like how I feel on psychostims, so I take a small amount in conjunction with modafinil. | 22:38 |
| erasmus | but if I don't take some stims with the moda then I don't get the same benefits | 22:38 |
| erasmus | for me it's all about my inner voice | 22:39 |
| @kanzure | uh oh, here comes the crazy | 22:39 |
| erasmus | I have a hard time reading and organizing with a stim | 22:39 |
| erasmus | when I take one even at a low dose, it's like no effort I just do it | 22:39 |
| JayDugger | Do you notice any change in the pitch of your speaking voice? | 22:39 |
| erasmus | kanzure it's not voices talking to me. It's when you read or talk to yourself in your mind when you are planning | 22:39 |
| @kanzure | yes. | 22:39 |
| erasmus | like executive functions | 22:39 |
| JayDugger | Does it lower? | 22:40 |
| @kanzure | erasmus: you should try to avoid that dude | 22:40 |
| erasmus | I cannot really get in tune with that voice when I'm not on dex. | 22:40 |
| @kanzure | JayDugger: it becomes more controllable | 22:40 |
| erasmus | try to avoid what? | 22:40 |
| @kanzure | erasmus: that voice sounds like a stupid idea | 22:40 |
| @kanzure | do you also subvocalize when you read?? | 22:40 |
| @kanzure | shit. | 22:40 |
| erasmus | Abe Lincoln used to drive his coworkers in his office crazy everyday cause he would read the newspaper out loud to himself in the morning | 22:41 |
| erasmus | I could do the same but that's not needed when on a stim. | 22:41 |
| @kanzure | i don't see how that comment about licoln is relevant | 22:41 |
| @kanzure | i still think reading with a voice is slow and ridiculous | 22:41 |
| erasmus | in addition to add-pi I have an auditory processing problem | 22:41 |
| @kanzure | yeah, well, you're not missing much | 22:41 |
| erasmus | it's funny how clearly I can explain my situation and yet you find issue with what I'm saying. | 22:42 |
| @kanzure | i just don't think it's a good idea | 22:42 |
| @kanzure | have you considered not doing these things | 22:42 |
| erasmus | what isn't a good idea? | 22:42 |
| erasmus | not reading? | 22:42 |
| @kanzure | inner voice, subvocalizing, etc. | 22:42 |
| erasmus | you need to do that in order to retain the information | 22:42 |
| erasmus | everyone does that. | 22:42 |
| @kanzure | i'm here to tell you etc.. | 22:43 |
| erasmus | even as you are reading what I'm now just typing you are hearing the words in your mind. | 22:43 |
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| @kanzure | no, i assure you i am not | 22:43 |
| erasmus | are you saying you do not? | 22:43 |
| @kanzure | that sounds boring and lame dude | 22:44 |
| erasmus | then with you I need to have compassion or just indifference. | 22:44 |
| yashgaroth | I started doing it once you typed that, I hope I get back to normal soon | 22:44 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: i feel for you' | 22:44 |
| erasmus | it's all about processing. | 22:44 |
| @kanzure | what | 22:44 |
| @kanzure | why is it suddenly all about that | 22:44 |
| erasmus | how we process information. | 22:44 |
| @kanzure | are you an neuroscientist or are you full of shit? | 22:44 |
| @kanzure | sorry, a neuroscientist | 22:45 |
| erasmus | I'd say indifference at this point. | 22:45 |
| @kanzure | i see no reason that processing has anything to do with subvocalizing or an inner voice | 22:46 |
| @kanzure | now, it's true that broca's area is activated during some forms of reading | 22:46 |
| brownies | yashgaroth: haha, yea, goddammit | 22:46 |
| brownies | sometimes i get stuck subvocalizing | 22:46 |
| yashgaroth | it's like manual breathing (sorry in advance everyone) | 22:46 |
| brownies | and your tongue's position in your mouth | 22:47 |
| * brownies ducks | 22:47 | |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: i have trained myself to become impervious to that one | 22:47 |
| @kanzure | "Do you know how I do it? I am breathing all the time." bruce brenner style. | 22:47 |
| yashgaroth | heh | 22:47 |
| @kanzure | *bruce banner | 22:47 |
| brownies | where is that quote from anyway? | 22:47 |
| brownies | i see that reference everywhere | 22:47 |
| yashgaroth | the avengers, and possibly also the comics/movies I haven't read/seen | 22:48 |
| brownies | ahh. haven't seen it yet. | 22:48 |
| yashgaroth | I'm afraid you nerd license has been suspended | 22:48 |
| @kanzure | brownies: http://youtube.com/watch?v=NvY_sMf9b_Q | 22:48 |
| brownies | i haven't been to the movies in years | 22:49 |
| brownies | doesn't leave enough time for coding | 22:49 |
| yashgaroth | neither have I...well okay I saw prometheus and that sucked | 22:49 |
| @kanzure | brownies: dude you're missing out | 22:50 |
| @kanzure | go to a theater asap | 22:50 |
| @kanzure | hang out in the back row with your laptop | 22:50 |
| brownies | and watch what? | 22:50 |
| @kanzure | code while watching movies | 22:50 |
| brownies | haha, not a bad idea. | 22:50 |
| @kanzure | doesn't matter, just fucking code while watching movies. | 22:50 |
| @kanzure | also best if you can find an outlet. | 22:50 |
| @kanzure | if you want to be the biggest ass of all time, sit in the front row while working on your super special rails app | 22:50 |
| erasmus | so kanzure can you describe exactly what you get when you take a stimulant? | 22:50 |
| @kanzure | erasmus: angry, i get fucking angry | 22:51 |
| @kanzure | also, i get a working memory bigger than 2 minutes. | 22:51 |
| erasmus | have you ever been diagnosed with add? | 22:51 |
| @kanzure | yes, i'm diagnosed with all sorts of wonderful things like adhd, aspergers, hfa, etc. | 22:51 |
| brownies | aren't you *always* on stimulants? | 22:52 |
| erasmus | aspergers doesn't exist anymore. | 22:52 |
| brownies | how is aspergers different from HFA? | 22:52 |
| @kanzure | brownies: it's not | 22:52 |
| @kanzure | brownies: and yes i am. | 22:52 |
| erasmus | assburgers was removed from the DSM-V | 22:52 |
| @kanzure | yes i'm aware of that | 22:52 |
| @kanzure | that doesn't mean that the word doesn't exist -_- | 22:52 |
| brownies | do you use stims with time-release coatings, or just re-dose regularly? | 22:52 |
| @kanzure | both | 22:52 |
| brownies | since, apaprently, we're interrogating you about your brain now. | 22:52 |
| erasmus | kanzure do you do anything else to improve your working memory besides take stims? | 22:53 |
| brownies | why are you so angry? | 22:53 |
| @kanzure | brownies: because things are awful and i have to fix them, and you guys aren't helping most of the time. | 22:53 |
| @kanzure | if you were better people, you would actually submit pull requests once in a while | 22:53 |
| @kanzure | instead of watching me like a caged animal | 22:53 |
| brownies | pull requests to what? | 22:54 |
| erasmus | kanzure how old are you? | 22:54 |
| * brownies pokes kanzure with a stick | 22:54 | |
| @kanzure | brownies: to the things that we work on in here -_- | 22:54 |
| brownies | what do you work on in here? | 22:54 |
| brownies | this is the first i'm hearing of this. | 22:54 |
| @kanzure | for all of kirka's fucked up philosophy, he at least submits a few pull requests once in a while | 22:54 |
| erasmus | are you comorbid anything else? | 22:54 |
| @kanzure | brownies: http://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer is the current topic concerning kirka | 22:54 |
| erasmus | I'm taking Trzodone for the first time tonight, doesn't anyone have any advice? | 22:55 |
| @kanzure | erasmus: i'm 22, but i have the heart of a 2 year old. | 22:55 |
| brownies | what the hell is Trzodone? | 22:55 |
| erasmus | heart or penis? | 22:55 |
| yashgaroth | so did kirka turn out to be a fascist because there's no way I'm reading that backlog | 22:55 |
| brownies | other than a gratuitous typo? | 22:55 |
| erasmus | it's an anti-dep for sleep | 22:55 |
| brownies | kanzure: oh your'e only 22? i had no idea. | 22:55 |
| erasmus | or I got it for sleep | 22:55 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: i can't even diagnose him | 22:55 |
| @kanzure | brownies: aren't you like 300 or something? | 22:55 |
| erasmus | so now I'm on 3 anti-depressants. | 22:55 |
| brownies | yes. 300. | 22:55 |
| @kanzure | k | 22:55 |
| erasmus | and 4 if you count fish oil; | 22:56 |
| brownies | try melatonin? | 22:56 |
| brownies | haha, no, fish oil doesn't count. | 22:56 |
| @kanzure | how about not sleeping? | 22:56 |
| @kanzure | that skips the problem completely. | 22:56 |
| erasmus | yes but I learned recently something new about melatonin | 22:56 |
| erasmus | I always used to take it 30 min before sleep | 22:56 |
| erasmus | but that's not right | 22:56 |
| erasmus | you should take it around 6 or 7pm or with dinner | 22:56 |
| erasmus | and then you will be able to sleep later | 22:56 |
| @kanzure | 6pm? so when you wake up? | 22:56 |
| erasmus | I get up around 7 | 22:57 |
| brownies | i don't take it at all; just suggesting. | 22:57 |
| erasmus | but if it doesn't work for me tonight I'll just take 400mg Moda | 22:57 |
| @kanzure | brownies: how do you not know my age by now? | 22:57 |
| @kanzure | curious.. | 22:57 |
| @kanzure | i guess it changes each year so it might be confusing | 22:57 |
| brownies | kanzure: i thought you were a couple years older, for some reason. | 22:57 |
| @kanzure | oh neat, okay | 22:57 |
| brownies | kanzure: i just hate it when people younger than me have their own wikipedia articles and i don't | 22:57 |
| @kanzure | i don't think i have a wikipedia article | 22:58 |
| yashgaroth | didn't know you were bald | 22:58 |
| @kanzure | man that would be a neat christmas gift | 22:58 |
| brownies | ah, no, you don't. alright then. | 22:58 |
| brownies | haha, yeah, some bald guy with your name does though. | 22:58 |
| @kanzure | well he has cancer | 22:58 |
| @kanzure | so hopefully he'll be dead soon | 22:58 |
| @kanzure | and then that asshole writing for verge with my name, not sure what to do with him | 22:58 |
| brownies | well you just have to beat him to wikipedia | 23:01 |
| brownies | or possibly change your name to something more exciting | 23:01 |
| @kanzure | bryan archbishop | 23:03 |
| brownies | yes, a promotion. | 23:03 |
| @kanzure | looks like nobody has claimed that name | 23:05 |
| brownies | that's pretty rare in today's internet age | 23:06 |
| brownies | better jump on it | 23:06 |
| @kanzure | and get the .com too huh? | 23:06 |
| brownies | heh | 23:06 |
| @kanzure | i'm just waiting for people to take names like "bytesmith" and "bitbanger" or "pixelpusher" | 23:06 |
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| brownies | you can start the trend | 23:08 |
| brownies | Bryan Bytesmith... founder of a long line of byte smithers. | 23:09 |
| @kanzure | Abraham Lincoln Hamlsmith | 23:09 |
| brownies | it would make socieconomics stratification so much simpler | 23:10 |
| brownies | you meet a Javasmith, you know to look down on him right away | 23:10 |
| @kanzure | mips would be a funny one | 23:12 |
| @fenn | ah now i can't stop breathing! | 23:14 |
| @fenn | yashgaroth: damn you and your tricksy ways | 23:14 |
| @kanzure | isn't that.. good? | 23:14 |
| @kanzure | stopping would be deadly | 23:14 |
| yashgaroth | hey man I apologized | 23:14 |
| yashgaroth | quick, think about blinking instead | 23:15 |
| @kanzure | your jedi mind tricks do not work on me.. only money. | 23:15 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: i bet that worked, but now he can't stop blinking | 23:16 |
| @fenn | why the hell am i reading about semiconductor technology node cost trends | 23:18 |
| brownies | learn anything good? | 23:18 |
| @fenn | not really | 23:18 |
| @fenn | multilayer seems to be the only way out | 23:18 |
| @fenn | apparently a key patent related to monolithic 3d chip fab expired late 2012 | 23:24 |
| @fenn | http://www.monolithic3d.com/2/post/2011/07/how-much-does-ion-cut-cost.html | 23:25 |
| @fenn | nobody's developed contact nanoimprinting either | 23:26 |
| -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 23:35 | |
| --- Log closed Sun Dec 16 00:00:58 2012 | ||
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