| --- Log opened Tue Jan 22 00:00:37 2013 | ||
| nmz787 | zi jian | 00:06 |
|---|---|---|
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| eleitl | good morning | 01:07 |
| eleitl | my plan is to bring in the more practically-minded Zero State people into this IRC channel | 01:07 |
| eleitl | objections? | 01:07 |
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| eleitl | guise | 03:28 |
| eleitl | anyone use Foswiki? | 03:28 |
| eleitl | we currently use Confluence (nonprofit free license) but would switch to a real FLOSS solution, if there's one | 03:29 |
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| eleitl | anyone awake? ping. | 04:29 |
| juri_ | yea, but you don't care about me. i'm a nobody, around here. :) | 04:33 |
| eleitl | nobody is a nobody | 04:34 |
| eleitl | channels looks deader than usual | 04:35 |
| juri_ | i just got done reading the last two days backlog. my brain is spinning with dna methylization. | 04:35 |
| eleitl | manipulating life is unfortunately rather hard | 04:36 |
| eleitl | it's not designed to be easily hackable | 04:36 |
| juri_ | this place is highly educational, to me. after all, i'm a computational/electrical/mechanical geek, wishing bio was at the same level, and hoping to capitalize on the aforementioned three skill domains to help the 4th. | 04:36 |
| eleitl | I think bio will be easier when we have easy I/O to DNA sequences | 04:37 |
| eleitl | if you have a DNA compiler, which is easy, fast and cheap it will be fun | 04:37 |
| juri_ | good luck with that. bios is a very wet and squishy domain. ;) | 04:37 |
| eleitl | yeah, you need reasonably good nanotechnology for that | 04:37 |
| eleitl | probably another 30 years | 04:38 |
| eleitl | outside of my time horizon | 04:38 |
| juri_ | I'd like to help the 'printing organs' problem. i have a lot of motivation in that field, being hypoglycemic, and having parents whos organs are starting to fall apart. there's probably nothing i can do for them, but... i wouldn't be a hacker if i didn't try. | 04:38 |
| eleitl | we will probably have to culture mammal cells for our SENS project | 04:39 |
| eleitl | not sure it happens, time is a bit tight | 04:39 |
| juri_ | yea, at first, i was trying to design a cell printer, but the scale up from the cell-movers to printing is too large. gotta print a lot of cells at once, and exocellular matricies... | 04:40 |
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| eleitl | I would actually try by starting culturing cells first | 04:41 |
| eleitl | they are very delicate | 04:41 |
| eleitl | your hardware needs to be built around that | 04:41 |
| juri_ | at this rate, it will be a year of reading this channel before i can decide on something progressive to do. ;) | 04:41 |
| * juri_ nods. | 04:41 | |
| eleitl | I wouldn't wait, I would start growing things | 04:41 |
| eleitl | bacteria or algae first, as they're easy | 04:41 |
| eleitl | then move on to the hardier animal cell types | 04:41 |
| juri_ | i'm going to build a better microscope than the none i've got, first. | 04:42 |
| eleitl | I would buy a cheap one off amazon or ebay | 04:42 |
| eleitl | a cheap *good* one, that is | 04:42 |
| eleitl | what's your budget? | 04:42 |
| juri_ | i was thinking something with trinary vision, and the ability to pull off detail at scales that would be useful for printing thin films of material. | 04:42 |
| juri_ | $0. but.. i fix stuff. ;) | 04:43 |
| eleitl | binocular, with a camera tubus? | 04:43 |
| phm | Hi, eleitl, you're in OpenQwaq? I wanted to say 'hi' but you're always idle. | 04:44 |
| juri_ | trinocular, with auto-focus-match, and the ability to scale resolution by just adding more cameras. | 04:44 |
| juri_ | probably laptop webcams or something like that. | 04:44 |
| eleitl | phm, I'm at work | 04:44 |
| eleitl | I can try loggin in from here, but I don't have video here | 04:44 |
| phm | ah. No problem. I'll catch you later, prob. | 04:45 |
| eleitl | plus, I have a support call coming up shortly | 04:45 |
| eleitl | catch you laters, phm | 04:45 |
| eleitl | I would go for megapixel CMOS at least | 04:46 |
| juri_ | i don't quite know if i have that lying around, at the moment. | 04:46 |
| phm | and hello H+ people. I come from zerostate (but not really a member of anywhere) | 04:47 |
| eleitl | I've invited some Zero State people over, as there's no point in having an own IRC channel almost nobody uses | 04:47 |
| juri_ | makes sense to me.. but its more a kanzure question/statement. ;) | 04:48 |
| phm | I have questions! But maybe I lurk a while first :-) | 04:48 |
| eleitl | I've actually put a 50 EUR Aldi microscope with USB eyepiece at our lab, as a placeholder until we have a real budget | 04:49 |
| eleitl | at least you can look at the algae cells, or see whether your reverse osmosis is overgrown with bugs | 04:49 |
| juri_ | nice. | 04:50 |
| juri_ | yea, i'm trying to get something put together with the mechanics to follow a 'print head'. | 04:51 |
| eleitl | you should probably hack a small USB microscope for that | 04:51 |
| juri_ | something capable of moving on an X-Y plane, possibly using cdrom drive parts. | 04:51 |
| eleitl | just attach it to the print head | 04:51 |
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| eudoxia | hello phm, eleitl | 04:52 |
| juri_ | my current 'print head' design is a glass tube mounted to old blu-ray parts. ;) | 04:52 |
| eleitl | hail eudoxia | 04:52 |
| phm | Hullo | 04:52 |
| juri_ | not exactly sturdy enough to mount a microscope to. | 04:52 |
| eleitl | eudoxia, have you ever used Foswiki? | 04:52 |
| eudoxia | i only used mediawiki because i'm such a pleb | 04:52 |
| eleitl | we're currently on Confluence, but I'd like to kick that habit | 04:53 |
| juri_ | I use trac for my sites. | 04:53 |
| juri_ | (linuxpmi.org being the major one) | 04:53 |
| phm | eleitl: Are you a Smalltalker? I was just looking at piercms. | 04:54 |
| juri_ | </shameless_plug> | 04:54 |
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| eleitl | No, I'm an admirer, but nonuser. | 04:54 |
| eleitl | we need to be more driven by practicality/usability, and lowest common denominator | 04:55 |
| eleitl | I've only picked Confluence because Darwin could use that | 04:55 |
| juri_ | right now i use trac as a wiki / (trouble_ticket+milestones+wiki=project_manager), but use gitorious for managing source code. | 04:55 |
| eleitl | we need something enterprise-wonky, with WYSIWYG editor | 04:55 |
| phm | eleitl: Why did you say 'I really dislike wikis'? I'm curious. | 04:57 |
| eleitl | contributor friction is too high | 04:58 |
| eleitl | you need to login, use weird syntax, etc. | 04:58 |
| eleitl | for office users, that's all nonobvious | 04:59 |
| phm | What is the alternative? | 04:59 |
| eleitl | a wiki which does WYSIWYG editing | 04:59 |
| eleitl | for me personally I'll be probably picking up Fossil | 04:59 |
| juri_ | tried etherpad? | 05:00 |
| eleitl | it would be nice if Fossil did things like Redmine/Chiliproject, but you have to start somewhere | 05:00 |
| eleitl | I've heard of etherpad | 05:00 |
| juri_ | I've used it a bit. its a neat concept. | 05:01 |
| eleitl | whoa, snail project would cost 20 kUSD minimum | 05:05 |
| eleitl | at least we can share the microscope with SENS | 05:10 |
| eudoxia | eleitl: i don't think kanz will have any objections to bringing in more practical people | 05:11 |
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| eleitl | that's my beef with Zero State: despite professing to be practical, only a handful of usual suspects are doing something actual | 05:12 |
| phm_ | What features does OpenQwaq offer for multiple users editing one document simultaneously? | 05:14 |
| eleitl | they just allow people access OpenOffice document | 05:15 |
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| eleitl | arbitration is by being in the same room | 05:15 |
| eleitl | you see the green laser beams as sign of activity | 05:15 |
| eleitl | it doesn't scale for a crowd, obviusly | 05:16 |
| phm_ | hmmm | 05:16 |
| eleitl | basically, it works like a real physical whiteboard | 05:16 |
| phm_ | Have you used it for anything serious? | 05:16 |
| eleitl | we've used OpenQwaq for conferences and board meetings | 05:17 |
| eleitl | even for people in the same city, it really saves on travel | 05:18 |
| eleitl | you can instantiate new rooms so that audio doesn't interfere | 05:18 |
| phm_ | and it works well? | 05:18 |
| eleitl | multimedia works very well | 05:19 |
| eleitl | casting video on avatar and wall works well | 05:19 |
| eleitl | audio quality is good | 05:19 |
| phm_ | Yeah, I tried that. Very impressed. | 05:19 |
| eleitl | needs headset, but everything is better with a headset anyway | 05:19 |
| phm_ | Shame I can't get the linux client to run, thought. | 05:19 |
| phm_ | What is the connection between ZS and 3DICC? | 05:20 |
| phm_ | Does kanz have objections about impractical people? | 05:22 |
| eleitl | moment | 05:23 |
| eudoxia | he has objections against transhumanists who think blogging will bring about the glorious h+ future | 05:23 |
| phm_ | hehe | 05:23 |
| phm_ | So where will the commune be setup, and when? | 05:23 |
| eudoxia | wait a minute i'm a little out of the ZS loop | 05:24 |
| eudoxia | what commune? | 05:24 |
| eleitl | no connection to 3dicc | 05:25 |
| eleitl | I just know Giulio, and he has a deal with 3dicc | 05:25 |
| phm_ | ah | 05:25 |
| eleitl | Ron Teitelbaum is a cool guy, he lets us use his servers | 05:25 |
| phm_ | Yeah. I wondered why all the ZS stuff was in their lobby | 05:26 |
| eleitl | our cryo org is also using it | 05:26 |
| eleitl | moment, have to call a user | 05:26 |
| eleitl | bbl | 05:26 |
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| phm_ | I'm thinking if you want to do practical stuff you really need a commune. | 05:27 |
| eleitl | stupid user haven't given me a phone number | 05:28 |
| phm_ | pref a floating city. But who has the resources for that? | 05:28 |
| eleitl | you don't need a commune | 05:28 |
| eleitl | you just need a central point where people can go to | 05:28 |
| eudoxia | why would you want a floating city | 05:28 |
| eleitl | and a budget | 05:28 |
| eudoxia | everything would have to be brought by helicopter or something | 05:28 |
| phm_ | It helps if the people don't have far to go. i.e. they live and sleep together. | 05:28 |
| eleitl | meh | 05:29 |
| phm_ | it would be self sufficient. | 05:29 |
| * eleitl dislikes people | 05:29 | |
| phm_ | It needs to be floating so you have a better shot at sovereignty | 05:30 |
| eleitl | a ship or an island would do | 05:30 |
| phm_ | a ship with people on it is a floating city. | 05:30 |
| eleitl | e.g. let's say you have to combine perfusion and euthanasia | 05:30 |
| phm_ | the islands all have owners | 05:31 |
| eleitl | that's a great way to go jail | 05:31 |
| eudoxia | or an undersea city on the conshelf in international waters | 05:31 |
| eleitl | old ships are cheap enough | 05:31 |
| eudoxia | seriously a floating city would just get drone-struck to death | 05:31 |
| phm_ | We could claim Mars, but who has the resources for that? Elon Musk? | 05:31 |
| eleitl | phm_ : please send me your drugs. don't bogart them. | 05:31 |
| phm_ | hehe. I will. | 05:32 |
| phm_ | I am doing so. | 05:32 |
| eleitl | I thought the South Sea Bubble was absurdly ambitious, but at least it has a chance of getting some leverage there | 05:32 |
| eudoxia | let's just work with what we've got for now | 05:32 |
| eleitl | yeah, we're founding a mortician company | 05:32 |
| phm_ | who would drone strike a peaceful nation? Oh....! | 05:32 |
| phm_ | Didn't I mention the Nuclear Doomsday device? It's the only way. | 05:33 |
| eleitl | so that we can route around the automatic misdemeanor charges when touching patients | 05:33 |
| eleitl | we're still stuck with absurdly conservative declaration of death criteria, but I think the only way to route around that is to change jurisdiction | 05:34 |
| eleitl | once you can do the procedure, it doesn't matter much where you can do it, with some setup time, of course | 05:34 |
| eleitl | but it will probably take 3-5 years to learn the procedure, if you start from scratch | 05:35 |
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| eleitl | am I making sense? | 05:37 |
| juri_ | not yet. :) | 05:37 |
| eleitl | we're bootstrapping a cryonics provider | 05:37 |
| eleitl | will co-operate with CI/Alcor for our local patients | 05:38 |
| eleitl | perfusion here, vitrification here, shipping on dry ice overseas to storage | 05:38 |
| eleitl | it's the only way, as transport takes up to a week | 05:39 |
| eleitl | in order to be able to handle "dead" bodies you need to be a mortician, or related | 05:40 |
| eleitl | so we hack the legal system to establish a pro forma/shell mortician company | 05:40 |
| eleitl | nonprofit | 05:40 |
| eleitl | legilation for that is about to be tightened, so we need to get in asap | 05:41 |
| eleitl | higher threshold of entry | 05:41 |
| eleitl | makes more sense now? | 05:42 |
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| phm_ | Have any transhuman startups made any serious money yet? | 05:44 |
| eleitl | how do you define a transhuman startup? | 05:44 |
| phm_ | hmmmm | 05:44 |
| phm_ | One that cares deeply about the future of humanity? | 05:45 |
| phm_ | One the wishes to minimise suffering? | 05:45 |
| phm_ | that | 05:45 |
| eleitl | says so in the official PR, or just thinks silently, to himself? | 05:45 |
| eleitl | not aware of any transhumanist startups | 05:46 |
| eudoxia | what about halcyon? | 05:46 |
| phm_ | says so officially. | 05:46 |
| eleitl | it's dead, jim. | 05:46 |
| phm_ | does spaceX count? Maybe not. | 05:46 |
| eleitl | space is 1960s | 05:46 |
| eleitl | so is cryonics, natch | 05:46 |
| eudoxia | i know it's dead, but i'd heard it was "secretly an uploading company" | 05:47 |
| eudoxia | or some shit, i dunno | 05:47 |
| eleitl | it was, but it isn't anymore | 05:47 |
| eudoxia | last i heard someone beat them to the electron microscope market? | 05:47 |
| eudoxia | or was it sequencing? | 05:47 |
| phm_ | what did halcyon do to make money and why did it die?? | 05:47 |
| eleitl | sequencing | 05:47 |
| eleitl | they basically commited a rookie mistake | 05:47 |
| eleitl | got trolled by a company release | 05:47 |
| phm_ | I thought transhumanists would be uber smart | 05:48 |
| eleitl | "our job is done" | 05:48 |
| eleitl | the venture capitalists pulled the money | 05:48 |
| eleitl | transhumanists are frequently unreasonable | 05:48 |
| eleitl | which is in the job description, if you think of it | 05:48 |
| eleitl | unfortunately, comes with side effects | 05:49 |
| eudoxia | in what way was it secretly an uploading company? | 05:49 |
| eleitl | like pulling dumb shit, now and then | 05:49 |
| phm_ | My plan is still hack into a bank. But don't worry. I'm insane, so nobody believes me. | 05:49 |
| eleitl | Randal told me so | 05:49 |
| eleitl | he actually suggested I should apply | 05:49 |
| eleitl | thanks, no more startups for me | 05:50 |
| phm_ | I spoke to Spencer about a commune. He said a few people were interested in it. | 05:53 |
| phm_ | I think it's very important. | 05:53 |
| eleitl | I don't see the point of a commune | 05:53 |
| phm_ | you're a misanthrope. | 05:53 |
| eleitl | I already live in a commune, three generations under one roof | 05:53 |
| eleitl | that's as commie as it gets | 05:53 |
| phm_ | can I come and live with you? | 05:53 |
| eleitl | Not my house, unfortunately. | 05:54 |
| eleitl | If it was, I'd put down the money to run my own lab. | 05:54 |
| eudoxia | how many times have cryonicists planned to build a libertopian commune? | 05:54 |
| eudoxia | it will never happen | 05:54 |
| eleitl | exactly, eudoxia | 05:54 |
| eleitl | cryonicists are completely unreasonable people, mostly | 05:54 |
| phm_ | leaving with your comrades offers massive advantages | 05:55 |
| phm_ | living | 05:55 |
| eleitl | it assumes social cohesiveness and compatibility which is just not there | 05:55 |
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| phm_ | and you did say we need a central point. A commune is that. but save travel time by sleeping there. | 05:56 |
| eleitl | you need a special type of person to thrive in a commune | 05:56 |
| eudoxia | moving to Factor e Farm would indirectly do more for transhumanism thatn living in a commune where people do nothing more than play eclipse phase and blog about the singularity | 05:56 |
| eudoxia | and everyone wears a watch with Unix time | 05:56 |
| eleitl | Living in Factor E would be a close approximation to personal nightmare | 05:57 |
| phm_ | The idea is to get resources. Without resources we are powerless. | 05:57 |
| phm_ | I thought all transhumans could live together. I may be mistaken. | 05:58 |
| eudoxia | you'd still be contributing to open manufacturing | 05:58 |
| eleitl | Transhumanists or transhumans? | 05:58 |
| eudoxia | important distinction | 05:58 |
| eleitl | Transhumans will probably eat you. | 05:58 |
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| phm_ | The problem with humans living together is emotions. Transhumans have solved that problem. | 05:58 |
| eleitl | Transhumanists would probably be annoying, and bathe too little. | 05:59 |
| phm_ | I only eat things dumber than me. | 05:59 |
| phm_ | yes, I hate bathing. | 05:59 |
| eleitl | Look at Factor E, it's a major fuckup. | 05:59 |
| eleitl | Neat idea, poor execution. | 05:59 |
| phm_ | So they weren't fully fledged transhumans? | 06:00 |
| eleitl | Clean water? Sanitation? Who needs these. | 06:00 |
| eudoxia | also marcin going crazy and stuff | 06:00 |
| eleitl | It's only the major killer on this planet, and a completely solved problem elsewhere. But there. | 06:00 |
| ThomasEgi | a clean environment will only lower your immune system's guard | 06:00 |
| phm_ | Washing with water is overrated IMO | 06:01 |
| eleitl | What is Marcin's mental health situation? | 06:01 |
| eudoxia | eleitl something about how meditating allows him to download a greater quantity of whatever | 06:01 |
| ThomasEgi | phm_, dust bathing ;)? | 06:01 |
| eleitl | but he's not gone stark raving mad bonkers | 06:01 |
| eleitl | ? | 06:01 |
| phm_ | maybe | 06:02 |
| eudoxia | grep marcin *.log | grep sane *.log, it should be there | 06:02 |
| phm_ | What was he like before the experiment? | 06:02 |
| eleitl | how do you make irssi keep a log? | 06:03 |
| phm_ | How did Factor E go wrong? What can I read on the topic? | 06:08 |
| eleitl | Have you read http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-11-01/the-post-apocalypse-survival-machine-nerd-farm#p1 ? | 06:09 |
| eleitl | If Marcin indeed has mental problems, that's probably completely unrelated. If anything, the experiment is probably related. Assuming he has problems, I don't know the guy from Adam. | 06:10 |
| phm_ | too much dirt. Transhumans would not live in so much dirt. | 06:11 |
| eleitl | Transhumans might, but transhumanists won't. | 06:11 |
| sbp | cf. http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Power_Cube | 06:11 |
| phm_ | And not enough computers. | 06:11 |
| eudoxia | transhumans would be adaptable | 06:11 |
| eleitl | I need my wood stove and my hot shower, and my hardwood floors, and my video projector. | 06:12 |
| eleitl | Fuck yurts. | 06:12 |
| phm_ | exactly | 06:12 |
| phm_ | So a ZS commune would be nothing like Factor E, I think | 06:14 |
| eleitl | Not sure. I think I can get along with Amon, and a few others. | 06:14 |
| phm_ | if you're transhuman you can. | 06:14 |
| eleitl | I'm not transhuman, I'm a transhumanist. | 06:15 |
| phm_ | then maybe you will fail. | 06:15 |
| phm_ | at communal living | 06:15 |
| eleitl | My chances of becoming transhuman are rather slim. | 06:15 |
| phm_ | define transhuman? | 06:15 |
| eleitl | They will become somewhat better if we manage to get the cryonics provider working, and if we get a chance of working on uploading the snail. | 06:16 |
| phm_ | maybe if you're half way there it will be OK. | 06:16 |
| eleitl | If I'm half there I'm a head in a dewar. | 06:16 |
| phm_ | I don't understand | 06:16 |
| eleitl | I'd rather postpone that as far as it gets, thanks. | 06:16 |
| eleitl | A transhumanist is a person striving to become transhuman. | 06:17 |
| phm_ | how do you define this? | 06:17 |
| eleitl | A transhuman does not use the biological substrate. | 06:17 |
| eleitl | It's a god, a power. | 06:17 |
| phm_ | ohh! I understood that one could be biological and transhuman. | 06:18 |
| eleitl | Some people seem to think that. | 06:18 |
| phm_ | I do. | 06:18 |
| eleitl | For very small values for transhuman, maybe. | 06:18 |
| phm_ | of course. so half way there doesn't mean head in dewar. | 06:18 |
| eleitl | Look! I've cut myself! I'm a transhuman, because a have a rare earth magnet in my fingertip! | 06:18 |
| phm_ | I don't understand. | 06:19 |
| eleitl | Bow before me! | 06:19 |
| phm_ | no transhuman would ask another to bow | 06:19 |
| eleitl | Exactly. | 06:19 |
| eleitl | Only emo transhumanists do that. | 06:19 |
| phm_ | Ignore them. | 06:19 |
| eleitl | Seriously, what's the point in inflationary use? | 06:20 |
| eleitl | So now we have to use posthuman? | 06:20 |
| phm_ | hmmm? for what? Just use a sliding scale? | 06:20 |
| eleitl | how can you be a transhuman, if you're mostly biology? | 06:21 |
| phm_ | you can be 10% | 06:21 |
| eleitl | how? | 06:21 |
| eleitl | show me | 06:21 |
| phm_ | you can get 10% just by understanding the right philosophy books, I feel. | 06:21 |
| eleitl | Then, we will never agree. | 06:22 |
| phm_ | I might change my mind. | 06:22 |
| eleitl | Let's say I run around with Google Glasses, and have an exocortex in the cloud. | 06:22 |
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| eleitl | Am I transhuman? | 06:22 |
| eleitl | Nope, I'm a monkey on crutches. | 06:22 |
| phm_ | So you guys all mean by transhuman: 'uploaded with god like powerz' ? | 06:23 |
| phm_ | sure. running around with glasses gives you nothing | 06:23 |
| eleitl | I would say that being solid state would be the entry level to that, yets. | 06:23 |
| eleitl | Google Glasses. | 06:23 |
| eleitl | Shitty AR. | 06:23 |
| phm_ | cyborg is not transhuman. right. | 06:23 |
| phm_ | not alone. | 06:24 |
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| eudoxia | i'd use 'posthuman' to refer to god-like folks and moon-sized brains | 06:24 |
| eudoxia | 'transhuman' for 'working on it'' | 06:24 |
| phm_ | maybe I can say you have to be 'enlightened' to be able to live in a commune. Are you enlightened? | 06:24 |
| ThomasEgi | and sun-sized batteries^ ;) | 06:24 |
| eudoxia | or 'better than human but not that much' | 06:24 |
| * eleitl is now officially a posthumanist | 06:24 | |
| * eleitl only posts humus now | 06:25 | |
| eudoxia | :) | 06:25 |
| phm_ | size is an illusion | 06:25 |
| eleitl | atoms are unfortunately pretty big | 06:25 |
| eleitl | so, size is not an illusion | 06:25 |
| eleitl | no femtotechnology for you, natch | 06:26 |
| phm_ | you're assuming we know everything about physics? | 06:26 |
| eleitl | I assume there is no reason to assume magic | 06:26 |
| phm_ | be agnostic. | 06:26 |
| eleitl | There are too many different brands of magic to choose from. I'll pass, thanks. | 06:27 |
| eleitl | Strictly no invisible pink unicorns. | 06:27 |
| phm_ | but it would make you happy! | 06:27 |
| phm_ | they would | 06:27 |
| phm_ | probably | 06:27 |
| * eleitl will implement elves first | 06:28 | |
| eleitl | then we'll see about unicorns, invisible, or otherwise | 06:28 |
| chris_99 | did someone say they're going to breed unicorns? :) | 06:28 |
| phm_ | As you wish. | 06:28 |
| eleitl | not breed, implement | 06:29 |
| eleitl | equines with horns are boring | 06:29 |
| phm_ | Are you 'enlightened'? Can you control your emotions and always think rationally? | 06:30 |
| eleitl | Logic is a pretty flower that smells bad. | 06:30 |
| phm_ | I'm not sure why you said that. | 06:31 |
| eleitl | It's something Spock said once. | 06:31 |
| phm_ | Please try to explain. | 06:31 |
| phm_ | What did he mean? | 06:31 |
| eleitl | I don't understand this 'rational' thing. What is it good for? | 06:31 |
| phm_ | getting at the truth. | 06:31 |
| phm_ | seeing falsehoods | 06:31 |
| eleitl | Why do you exist? Why do you bother get ouf the bed in the morning? | 06:32 |
| eleitl | Logic is no part of that. | 06:32 |
| phm_ | I don't know. Who cares? | 06:32 |
| eleitl | Exactly. Rationality, who cares? | 06:32 |
| phm_ | It can't answer all questions. So what? | 06:32 |
| phm_ | but it can answer a lot of questions. | 06:32 |
| phm_ | So rationality is very useful | 06:33 |
| eleitl | Sure, it's a tool. | 06:33 |
| phm_ | yes, so you understand what it's good for. | 06:33 |
| eleitl | Yes, yes, I understand, I just don't understand your original question. | 06:33 |
| eleitl | 'Enlightened'? What the hell is that? | 06:34 |
| phm_ | undefined | 06:34 |
| phm_ | but why did spock say logic smell bad? | 06:34 |
| phm_ | cos it wouldn't tell him why he exists? | 06:35 |
| eleitl | http://gowers.wordpress.com/2013/01/16/why-ive-also-joined-the-good-guys/ <-- Episciences, an ArXiV overlay | 06:35 |
| eleitl | he wanted to crash a stupid probe | 06:35 |
| eleitl | it did him the favor | 06:35 |
| eleitl | eat flaming death, Elsevier | 06:36 |
| phm_ | that made it crash? How? | 06:36 |
| phm_ | I don't really like spock | 06:37 |
| eleitl | I don't do Star Trek, it's just a single quote I like to reuse | 06:38 |
| phm_ | He always says dumb things, like: I can't play poker cos I'm too logical. | 06:38 |
| phm_ | and he's like 'kurk you must teach me how you did that' and it's like freaking obvious | 06:39 |
| phm_ | the false message is 'logic makes you dumb' | 06:39 |
| phm_ | Can you control your emotions and always think rationally? | 06:41 |
| eleitl | I wonder how many generations are completely damaged by Star Trek and Star Wars. | 06:41 |
| phm_ | hehe | 06:41 |
| eleitl | I've explained MNT to my nephew once. | 06:41 |
| phm_ | it's not sci-fi. It's soap opera set in space. | 06:41 |
| eleitl | Oh, you mean it's like Star Trek! | 06:41 |
| eleitl | No, most assuredly not, nephew. | 06:42 |
| eudoxia | oh the replicator analogy | 06:42 |
| phm_ | I don't watch the future on TV, I invent the future. | 06:42 |
| eudoxia | why god | 06:42 |
| eudoxia | why | 06:42 |
| eleitl | oy | 06:42 |
| eleitl | it's just broken beyond redemption | 06:42 |
| eleitl | Isaac Asimov is another of these perpetrators | 06:42 |
| eleitl | somebody dig him out, and shoot him | 06:43 |
| eudoxia | FTL, galactic empires... | 06:43 |
| phm_ | I like Asimov. MOstly | 06:43 |
| eudoxia | i stopped liking him when i started reading other authors | 06:43 |
| eleitl | There are preciously few intelligent authors. | 06:44 |
| phm_ | I guess my hope lies in seasteading. Build a floating city. Invite some smart, ethical people. Declare sovereignty. Write a constitution in Lojban. Get rid of anyone that does anything irrational or unconstitutional or unethical. Prove that a reputations based gift economy can work. Gain power by excelling at science (a la Asimov's first foundation). Help/take over the rest of the world/universe. | 06:44 |
| eleitl | Gene Wolfe, Stanislaw Lem, Strugazkis. | 06:44 |
| phm_ | Thanks Asimov | 06:44 |
| eleitl | a few others | 06:44 |
| phm_ | Do you like Stross? | 06:44 |
| eudoxia | i liked The Diamond Age | 06:44 |
| eleitl | Yeah, that one was good in places. | 06:45 |
| eudoxia | also a Requiem for Homo Sapiens even though it's the diametral opposite of scientific | 06:45 |
| * eleitl doesn't like Stros | 06:45 | |
| eudoxia | i caught what i thought were subtle MNT references though | 06:45 |
| phm_ | Red Mars trilogy is my all time favourite sci-fi books, so far | 06:45 |
| eleitl | I like John Crowley. | 06:45 |
| eleitl | Peter Beagle. | 06:45 |
| eleitl | Gene Wolfe. | 06:46 |
| eleitl | M John Harrison is great, in places. | 06:46 |
| phm_ | but still, more fun to invent the future. | 06:46 |
| eleitl | right, so we need money | 06:47 |
| eleitl | just validating the snall will take 20 kUSD, minimum | 06:47 |
| phm_ | hack into a bank. They have money. | 06:47 |
| eleitl | that's used equipment, and volunteer work | 06:47 |
| eleitl | Hayworth's next instrument is, what, 22+ MUSD? | 06:47 |
| eleitl | chump change | 06:48 |
| phm_ | and computer people can make money with very little investment. You're a biologist, right? So you can't really | 06:48 |
| eleitl | right, so I just buy a production run on a 14 nm node | 06:49 |
| eudoxia | chemist | 06:49 |
| eleitl | very cheap | 06:49 |
| eleitl | computer people doesn't mean software | 06:49 |
| eleitl | Just running a modest cluster will cost you 2 MUSD/year, in juice. | 06:50 |
| phm_ | software people need the least resources, I guess. Yes, hardware advancement needs resources | 06:50 |
| eleitl | Shit's expensive, yo. | 06:50 |
| eleitl | Software people are limited by hardware. | 06:50 |
| phm_ | software is the best bang for your buck | 06:50 |
| eleitl | Software by itself is useless. | 06:50 |
| phm_ | Not really | 06:50 |
| phm_ | We have plenty of hardware in the world. | 06:51 |
| eleitl | Yes? | 06:51 |
| eleitl | Where? | 06:51 |
| phm_ | it's all over the place. Even in washing machines. | 06:51 |
| eleitl | I need Avogadro number of bits. Where can I buy these? | 06:51 |
| phm_ | I don't understand your question | 06:51 |
| eleitl | 10^23 bits is not a large installation, a single rack would do | 06:51 |
| phm_ | What are you trying to do? | 06:52 |
| eleitl | so why can I only put a single measly petabyte into that rack? | 06:52 |
| eleitl | because our hardware sucks | 06:52 |
| eleitl | Try imaging a ~1 liter object at ~nm voxel resolution. | 06:52 |
| phm_ | But I don't need petabytes of bits to do cool stuff | 06:52 |
| eleitl | perhaps your stuff is not so cool as you think it is | 06:53 |
| phm_ | it might be nice, but we have a lot of scope with the hardware we already have. Hardware isn't holding us back, software is. | 06:53 |
| eleitl | absolutely not, our hardware makes our software useless | 06:53 |
| phm_ | not for most thing. | 06:53 |
| eleitl | you could breed software with hardware | 06:54 |
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| eleitl | not the other way round | 06:54 |
| phm_ | that's insane. | 06:54 |
| eleitl | How do you implement magic? Not firing up emacs, that's for sure. | 06:54 |
| phm_ | hardware must be programmed. You can't avoid that. And the best way to program is with software. | 06:54 |
| eleitl | How do you implement artificial intelligence? Certainly not by firing up gdb. | 06:54 |
| phm_ | maybe. We don't know. | 06:55 |
| eleitl | we do know, because our brain does about the entire work of all the silicon on the planet right now | 06:55 |
| phm_ | I think we can make a lot of progress in A.I with the hardware we already have. | 06:55 |
| eleitl | I would sure like to see evidence for that | 06:55 |
| phm_ | just because the brain doesn't do it like that doesn't mean computers can't | 06:56 |
| eleitl | Ever tried simulating what a fly does? A fly does a surprising amount of work, it turns out. | 06:56 |
| phm_ | you see evidence all the time. Computers are getting better and better at Go | 06:56 |
| eleitl | And what does that tell us? | 06:56 |
| phm_ | That weak A.I is advancing and that there is more room for improvement without different hardware. | 06:57 |
| eleitl | Wow, Paul allen put 400 MUSD where his mouth is. | 06:57 |
| eleitl | I hope his remission is permanent. | 06:58 |
| phm_ | and how do you answer my question about needing to program hardware? | 06:59 |
| eleitl | Who has written your program, phm_? | 06:59 |
| eleitl | Who has implemented you? | 06:59 |
| phm_ | I can't tell you that. | 06:59 |
| eleitl | Show me how many kLoCs you take. | 06:59 |
| eleitl | Can I step through you with a debugger? Why not? | 06:59 |
| phm_ | Because it hurts. | 06:59 |
| phm_ | And I don't know you very well. | 07:00 |
| eudoxia | and that, guise, is why uploading > AGI | 07:00 |
| eleitl | No, because you're not a sequential process. You're not a program, the way IT people think of a program. | 07:00 |
| phm_ | big assumption. | 07:00 |
| eleitl | You can do the same in solid state. In fact, it's the only thing to scale. | 07:00 |
| eleitl | It's hard enough to define the boundary conditions. | 07:00 |
| eleitl | Let hardware do the rest. | 07:01 |
| eleitl | Because it's cheap. Because it's fast. Because it can take it. | 07:01 |
| phm_ | I will learn to make good hardware when I know how to write good programs. | 07:01 |
| eleitl | Then you will never learn to make good hardware. | 07:01 |
| phm_ | that's possible | 07:01 |
| eleitl | We already know what the optimal hardware is, we only need to build it. | 07:02 |
| eleitl | And you can't program optimal hardware! | 07:02 |
| phm_ | I don't think we do. | 07:02 |
| eleitl | Nothing what goes on two legs can. | 07:02 |
| phm_ | you're talking about quantum computers? | 07:02 |
| eleitl | It is very easy to show an optimal arrangement for a classical computer | 07:02 |
| eleitl | It's just about light cones in a relativistic universe -> closest packing | 07:03 |
| phm_ | I'm not convinced | 07:03 |
| eleitl | If you think of software, software will not tell you that. Physics will. | 07:03 |
| eleitl | phm_, when I have nothing to do, I can sketch you the proof | 07:04 |
| eleitl | in case it isn't obvious | 07:04 |
| phm_ | I probably won't understand it | 07:05 |
| phm_ | I'm still not sure what proof is | 07:05 |
| eleitl | Of course you will, you only need to know about relativistic signalling limits. | 07:05 |
| eleitl | When you want to process data, it has to be close. | 07:05 |
| phm_ | is this ignoring quantum ideas? | 07:06 |
| eleitl | Circuits take up space, so you're looking about the same problem as crystallography does. | 07:06 |
| eleitl | It's a classical computer. QC won't obviously work. | 07:06 |
| phm_ | it doesn't feel right | 07:07 |
| eleitl | what doesn't feel right? | 07:07 |
| phm_ | this proof | 07:07 |
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| eudoxia | you haven't even | 07:08 |
| eudoxia | what | 07:08 |
| eleitl | if a part of a system changes state only those parts in its light cone might learn of the change of state | 07:09 |
| phm_ | It's beyond me | 07:09 |
| eleitl | can you google light cone, phm_? | 07:09 |
| phm_ | I don't like to hear about physics, at the moment | 07:09 |
| eudoxia | it's like you're in a 2D universe, and the Z axis is time. the cone is the trajectory described by the first photons to leave the object in the hypersurface of the present | 07:10 |
| eudoxia | that's the future light cone | 07:10 |
| eudoxia | the past light cone is arriving information? | 07:10 |
| phm_ | If you say so! | 07:10 |
| eleitl | yeah, it's easiest to visualize in 1d first | 07:10 |
| eleitl | look 1d cellular automata, and why there is a speed of light limit for signalling | 07:11 |
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| eleitl | then do it for 2d, and 3d is just the same | 07:11 |
| eudoxia | the light cone becomes the light hypersphere | 07:11 |
| eleitl | phm_, don't let eudoxia confuse you with language | 07:11 |
| phm_ | it's on my list of things to study, but it seems very distant | 07:11 |
| eleitl | it is actually very simple | 07:11 |
| eudoxia | even i got it, so it must be | 07:12 |
| eleitl | so just assume if you want to program an optimal computer you're programming a 3d CA with a rule you define | 07:12 |
| eleitl | of course there's also a limit to the complexity of the rule, and the number of states/cell | 07:12 |
| eleitl | in principle you can even use a silicon compiler to program that, but you'd be losing most of its potential | 07:13 |
| eleitl | seen a program in minecraft? | 07:13 |
| eleitl | that's quite a bit like that | 07:13 |
| phm_ | So what will you do when this hardware is available? | 07:13 |
| eleitl | We will become gods, and live merrily ever after, for subjective exayears. | 07:14 |
| phm_ | How will you program for it? | 07:14 |
| eudoxia | i once implemented rule 110 in minecraft | 07:14 |
| eleitl | I would finagle emergence. | 07:14 |
| phm_ | gods are overrated | 07:14 |
| eudoxia | it was pretty meh | 07:14 |
| eleitl | But it comes with great perks! Just as not getting a tumor in your spine. | 07:14 |
| eleitl | You should try get a tumor in your spine. | 07:15 |
| eleitl | I'm told it fucks you up. | 07:15 |
| phm_ | How will the finagling work? | 07:15 |
| eleitl | I would start with evolving evolvability in a GA. | 07:16 |
| eleitl | That's hard work, so you need acres of molecular hardware. | 07:16 |
| phm_ | so no conventional programming involved? | 07:16 |
| eleitl | No. You would have to specify boundary conditions. | 07:17 |
| phm_ | In what language? | 07:17 |
| eleitl | Like when is a problem solved, but not how. | 07:17 |
| eleitl | It doesn't have to be formal, it could be even interactive. | 07:17 |
| phm_ | hmmm | 07:17 |
| eleitl | It can be formal, though. | 07:17 |
| phm_ | Are you 100% this approach will work? | 07:18 |
| eleitl | I think it will, but the only proof of this pudding is in its eating. | 07:18 |
| phm_ | seems like a lot of speculation | 07:18 |
| eleitl | So this is why I'm interested in molecular hardware. | 07:18 |
| eleitl | A proof is the opposite of speculation. | 07:18 |
| phm_ | pudding is good. | 07:18 |
| eleitl | You'll notice we're getting a sea of cores on a mesh, and also stacking. | 07:19 |
| eleitl | That is not a coincidence. | 07:19 |
| eleitl | We'll be getting nondeterminism next. | 07:19 |
| eleitl | That will be fun. | 07:19 |
| phm_ | estimated time scale? | 07:19 |
| eleitl | It took an afternoon to make a local programmer understand that his threads won't scale. | 07:20 |
| eleitl | Well, Moore is saturating at the moment, so it's hard to tell. | 07:20 |
| eleitl | They'll probably start hacking up architecture, now that they can't double transistors as easily. | 07:20 |
| eleitl | Most people don't dig clusters, and it will take a while until the changed situation percolates through. | 07:21 |
| eleitl | Meanwhile, we'll have crap slow computers. | 07:21 |
| eleitl | I think stacking will be here in 3-4 years latest. | 07:22 |
| eleitl | It's already there in mobiles. | 07:22 |
| eleitl | I think the progress is limited by what's in people's heads, and that's not easily changed | 07:23 |
| phm_ | Are you optimistic about the future of humanity? | 07:23 |
| eleitl | So far it doesn't look good, but I've been wrong before. | 07:23 |
| eleitl | I think we'll get famines pretty soon. | 07:23 |
| eleitl | If we don't, that World3 model is full of shit. | 07:23 |
| eleitl | Let's hope it's full of shit. | 07:23 |
| phm_ | Because you don't like suffering? | 07:24 |
| eleitl | Famines are typically accompanied by wars. Nobody likes wars, especially if it starts being you. | 07:24 |
| eleitl | Trying to develop R&D even in a limited nuclear exchange scenario is kinda tough. | 07:25 |
| phm_ | ahh | 07:25 |
| eleitl | My grandmother's pupils died of hunger, that's not so fun, I'll tell you. | 07:25 |
| phm_ | I don't understand | 07:25 |
| phm_ | ohh. students. | 07:25 |
| eleitl | Yes, so she left her village, and went to the city. | 07:26 |
| phm_ | I have empathy | 07:26 |
| eleitl | On foot, along the rail, because she couldn't afford the ticket. | 07:26 |
| phm_ | When do you think we'll have a Mars base? | 07:26 |
| eleitl | And Saratov-Moscow is one hell of a walk. | 07:26 |
| phm_ | Where are you from? | 07:27 |
| eleitl | We might never have a Mars base. Humans don't travel well. | 07:27 |
| phm_ | Surely some will want to do it, if we can. | 07:27 |
| eleitl | We probably won't travel much beyond the inner solar system, in any case. | 07:27 |
| eleitl | Then, you have to stop wearing that stupid man suit. | 07:27 |
| eleitl | Solid state travels very lightly, especially if you leave the drive at home. | 07:28 |
| eleitl | Up to 0.9 c in mere weeks. | 07:28 |
| eleitl | Up, up and away. | 07:28 |
| phm_ | I don't like to talk about uploading | 07:28 |
| eleitl | I don't like to talk about it, either. | 07:28 |
| eleitl | I'd rather do it. | 07:28 |
| eleitl | Somebody send me 20 kUSD for the snail project. | 07:29 |
| eleitl | Imagine that, the very first immortal. | 07:29 |
| eleitl | A common pond snail. | 07:29 |
| eleitl | Not that it would appreciate it, the poor thing. | 07:29 |
| phm_ | I think it might. | 07:30 |
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| eleitl | If you uplift it, maybe. | 07:30 |
| eudoxia | that might take a while | 07:30 |
| eudoxia | make sure to keep a copy of the scan data | 07:30 |
| eleitl | at only 20 k neurons, a child's play! | 07:31 |
| phm_ | Can you control your emotions and always think rationally? | 07:31 |
| eleitl | big fat honking neurons, at that | 07:31 |
| eleitl | why would I want to control my emotions? | 07:31 |
| phm_ | to avoid the dark side. | 07:31 |
| eudoxia | oh no here we go again | 07:31 |
| * eleitl is actually evil, inside | 07:32 | |
| phm_ | go what again? | 07:32 |
| eleitl | I will turn this planet into Toon Town. | 07:32 |
| eleitl | Pure insanity, on fast-forward. | 07:32 |
| eudoxia | all this talk about emotions and rationality | 07:32 |
| ThomasEgi | eleitl, i doubt disney will get you the rights to do this. | 07:32 |
| eleitl | daym, you're right | 07:33 |
| phm_ | It's an important question to me. | 07:33 |
| eleitl | we have to unfreeze him, and ask him to grant the rights | 07:33 |
| ThomasEgi | eleitl, i know some people working on the engine behind toontown tho... but i doubt that'll get you anywhere. | 07:33 |
| eleitl | phm_, that sounds mildly irrational | 07:33 |
| phm_ | why? | 07:33 |
| eleitl | that whole obsession with emotion, and rationality | 07:34 |
| phm_ | there is a reason for it. | 07:34 |
| eleitl | can you explain? | 07:34 |
| phm_ | I want everyone to be happy | 07:35 |
| eleitl | sounds like a good plan, up to a point | 07:35 |
| eleitl | in moderation | 07:35 |
| eleitl | do not dial beyond the red line | 07:36 |
| phm_ | maybe | 07:36 |
| eleitl | depressed people can be very efficient | 07:36 |
| phm_ | I don't like the sound of Elizers super-happy-funbeings | 07:36 |
| eleitl | good he'll never be able to accomplish anything | 07:37 |
| phm_ | if you've read this: http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/ | 07:37 |
| phm_ | Why do you say so? | 07:37 |
| eleitl | because his traction for implementation is pretty much zero | 07:38 |
| eleitl | even his writing is sterile | 07:38 |
| phm_ | you're talking about Eliezer_Yudkowsky ? | 07:38 |
| eleitl | Eliezer is an anti-pattern of transhumanism | 07:38 |
| phm_ | interesting! | 07:39 |
| eleitl | I have no idea why he is that way | 07:39 |
| phm_ | Why anti-pattern? | 07:39 |
| eleitl | Becase if you do pretty much the opposite of what he's doing, you're on a pretty good track. | 07:39 |
| phm_ | What is he doing? | 07:40 |
| eudoxia | writing | 07:40 |
| phm_ | what is the opposite of that? | 07:40 |
| eudoxia | doing | 07:40 |
| eleitl | To start with. But also what he is writing, it's just worse than useless. | 07:40 |
| phm_ | for example? | 07:40 |
| eleitl | Just his idea to pick XML, what on earth? | 07:41 |
| eudoxia | oh dear god, the Flare language? | 07:41 |
| eleitl | I think that's what it was called, yes | 07:41 |
| eleitl | Just the whole idea of Friendliness, it's stupid. | 07:42 |
| phm_ | Why? | 07:42 |
| eudoxia | "guise lets replace the glory that are (butt)sexpressions with horrid, redundant, unreadable XML tags" | 07:42 |
| eleitl | buttsexpression. I like that. | 07:42 |
| eudoxia | it should be the name of a lisp-y markup language | 07:43 |
| eudoxia | README.bsex | 07:43 |
| eleitl | I like your ideas, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter. | 07:43 |
| phm_ | What is 'Friendliness'? Why stupid? | 07:44 |
| eleitl | How do you define that metric? | 07:44 |
| eleitl | How do you assert conservation of that metric across open-ended evolution? | 07:44 |
| phm_ | making friendly A.I? | 07:44 |
| eleitl | Maybe your AI is into torture porn. | 07:45 |
| phm_ | it won't be | 07:45 |
| eleitl | but this is how I define friendly. | 07:45 |
| eleitl | I think everybody should be tortured to death, ad infinitum. | 07:46 |
| eudoxia | a successful AI boxing strategy: introduce it to 4chan? | 07:46 |
| eleitl | AI does a secure overwrite of itself | 07:46 |
| phm_ | So ethics is always subjective? | 07:46 |
| eleitl | twice, just to make sure | 07:46 |
| eleitl | ethics is sufficiently variable, and also limite to a context | 07:46 |
| eudoxia | what do you mean? like shred? | 07:46 |
| eleitl | what makes sense for monkeys, doesn't make sense for gods | 07:47 |
| eleitl | yeah, just to make sure it won't be reinstantiated | 07:47 |
| eleitl | the horror, the horror! | 07:47 |
| eleitl | can't unsee | 07:47 |
| phm_ | I see. but I feel that 'worse than useless' is a bit harsh. | 07:47 |
| eudoxia | oh no did i just introduce someone to 4chan? | 07:48 |
| eleitl | well, if you consider how many people became Singularitan cultists... and what they would have done with their life instead... | 07:48 |
| eudoxia | i can never forgive myself | 07:48 |
| eleitl | Nono, moot is my hero. | 07:48 |
| eudoxia | oh thank jesus | 07:48 |
| eleitl | I never go there, but I get all the good things by way of fallout. | 07:48 |
| eudoxia | i mean clippy | 07:48 |
| eleitl | Speaking of 4chan, have you seen imgur gone to shit in just one week? | 07:49 |
| phm_ | I don't think Eliezer can turn anyone into a cultist. | 07:49 |
| eleitl | Most remarkable. | 07:49 |
| eleitl | My eyesockets bled. | 07:49 |
| eleitl | Yeah, you have to be a pretty strange being to find the idea sensible, so I guess not. | 07:49 |
| phm_ | I enjoyed his story 'three worlds collide'. Did you not? | 07:50 |
| eudoxia | i don't use imgur | 07:50 |
| eudoxia | phm is it the one with the baby eating aliens? | 07:50 |
| phm_ | yep | 07:50 |
| eleitl | sorry, I didn't read it. There was a story? | 07:50 |
| phm_ | http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/ | 07:51 |
| eleitl | right, I'm already there | 07:51 |
| eleitl | I just seen the few lines of text, and comments, so I thought there was no story | 07:51 |
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| eleitl | can you give me a tl;dr? | 07:55 |
| eudoxia | yeah me too | 07:56 |
| phm_ | when I said I didn't want to be like the super-happy-fun-beings I was talking about the aliens in that story. They're always having sex | 07:57 |
| phm_ | and they want everyone else to be happy | 07:57 |
| eudoxia | and apparently they are into infanticidal vore | 07:58 |
| phm_ | that's a different race | 07:58 |
| eudoxia | oh | 07:58 |
| phm_ | the super-happy-fun aliens kill the baby eaters | 07:59 |
| phm_ | to prevent suffering | 07:59 |
| phm_ | and the humans are in the middle | 07:59 |
| phm_ | the humans can't decide if to wipe out the baby eaters or not | 08:01 |
| phm_ | some say yes, some say no | 08:01 |
| eleitl | they all seem pretty insane so far | 08:02 |
| phm_ | it makes sense to me. | 08:02 |
| phm_ | I enjoyed it, anyway | 08:02 |
| eudoxia | i didn't understand the part with the magic translatopr | 08:03 |
| eudoxia | translator* | 08:03 |
| phm_ | why not? | 08:03 |
| eleitl | with the tl;dr, I did not mean the story, but the pedagogical intent | 08:03 |
| eudoxia | because you can't just translate the language of an alien race | 08:03 |
| eleitl | you can't travel faster than light, either | 08:04 |
| eleitl | it would fuck up causality | 08:04 |
| phm_ | why not? It seemed plausible to me. | 08:04 |
| eleitl | Because physics. | 08:04 |
| phm_ | I mean about the translating. Not FTL | 08:04 |
| eleitl | FTL is equivalent to causality violation. | 08:04 |
| phm_ | I don't know about that | 08:04 |
| eleitl | Of course you can't translate jack squat either. | 08:04 |
| phm_ | you sound very confident | 08:04 |
| eleitl | The whole story is not very realistic. I did expect that. | 08:05 |
| eleitl | I send you output of /dev/random. What is your translation? | 08:05 |
| phm_ | So you won't read any sci-fi with FTL travel? | 08:05 |
| phm_ | /dev/random is not intelligent | 08:05 |
| eleitl | I don't do suspension of disbelief very well, I'm afraid | 08:06 |
| eleitl | how do you know /dev/random isn't? | 08:06 |
| phm_ | I assume it isn't | 08:06 |
| eleitl | I don't understand how people can watch Hollywood blockbusters | 08:06 |
| eleitl | the physics is just visibly, jarringly wrong, all. the. time. | 08:06 |
| phm_ | you just need a pinch of salt. It's easy. | 08:06 |
| eleitl | a gigaton of rock salt might do | 08:07 |
| eleitl | anyways, what's the pedagogical destillation of that thing? | 08:08 |
| eleitl | I've read a couple chapters, and I won't read the whole thing. | 08:08 |
| phm_ | just questions about ethics | 08:08 |
| phm_ | How fast do you read? | 08:08 |
| eleitl | Seems like an awful waste of human life. | 08:08 |
| phm_ | what is a waste? | 08:08 |
| eleitl | I can read a couple books a day, if I have to. | 08:08 |
| phm_ | Are you a genius? | 08:09 |
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| eleitl | Excuse me? | 08:09 |
| phm_ | Would you describe yourself as a genius? | 08:09 |
| eleitl | Nope. | 08:10 |
| phm_ | Would anyone else? | 08:11 |
| eleitl | Haven't met a genius yet. A few impressive people, yes. | 08:11 |
| ThomasEgi | in certain , very limited subjects maybe. but not universal. | 08:11 |
| eleitl | The probability of meeting a genius is low, these are one in a million outliers. | 08:12 |
| phm_ | I wonder if anyone alive is close to Von Neumann | 08:12 |
| eleitl | no way to tell | 08:13 |
| eleitl | you can't even measure that, it's off-scale | 08:13 |
| phm_ | Have you read Godel, Escher, Bach? | 08:13 |
| eleitl | I wish I could meet a fully functional Prometheus society guy, who's actually kicking ass | 08:13 |
| phm_ | GEBanEGB | 08:14 |
| eleitl | GEB is also rather sterile. Not nearly Eliezer grade of sterile, though. | 08:14 |
| phm_ | haha | 08:14 |
| phm_ | I would say GEB is anything but sterile. Do you understand Godels work? | 08:15 |
| eleitl | http://prometheussociety.org/cms/articles <-- they have a few new articles | 08:15 |
| eleitl | I understand the proof, yes | 08:16 |
| phm_ | Does it convince you? | 08:16 |
| eleitl | Sure, why not? | 08:16 |
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| phm_ | Just asking. I don't understand it. | 08:16 |
| eleitl | My math is pretty poor. I barely made it through QC III. | 08:17 |
| phm_ | I feel like I've only just scratched the surface of what there is to know. | 08:18 |
| eleitl | Mathematics is effectively infinite, so if you like that kind of thing, you can get lost in there. | 08:18 |
| phm_ | Which is depressing. | 08:18 |
| phm_ | Do you have a proof that mathematics is infinite? | 08:18 |
| eleitl | Mining the math face, how is it called. | 08:19 |
| ThomasEgi | some infinites are bigger than othters ;) | 08:19 |
| eleitl | That's right in the GEB, production systems. | 08:19 |
| eleitl | You can crank them out any color your like. | 08:19 |
| phm_ | my guess is that it's not infinite. But that's just a feeling. I'm not qualified. | 08:20 |
| eleitl | It depends on what you mean by mathematics. | 08:20 |
| phm_ | logic | 08:20 |
| eleitl | If it's about formal systems, just permutation of a few bits will take more atoms than in the visible universe to encode. | 08:20 |
| phm_ | one day we will run out of logic. It will all be done. | 08:20 |
| eleitl | Universe is to run out in about 16.7 gigayears, so it's not like we've got a lot of time. | 08:21 |
| eleitl | 95% of all stars that ever will exist are here already | 08:21 |
| eleitl | we're late to this here party | 08:21 |
| phm_ | time is an illusion :-) | 08:21 |
| ThomasEgi | hitch hikers guide.. | 08:22 |
| eleitl | not according to cosmology | 08:22 |
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| eleitl | My guess is that talking to a god is like listening to /dev/random | 08:24 |
| phm_ | How would you guess the gap between the intelligence of a monkey and an average human compares to the gap between the average human and you? | 08:24 |
| eleitl | None of it will make the slightest sense whatsover. Unless it's designed to be understood. | 08:24 |
| eleitl | I am an average human. | 08:25 |
| eleitl | In fact, slighly subaverage in places. | 08:25 |
| phm_ | you wouldn't say you were of above average intelligence? | 08:25 |
| eleitl | Nope. I had to work with what I had, which wasn't a lot. | 08:26 |
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| eleitl | Most people don't use the issued equipment for some reason. | 08:26 |
| phm_ | Have you seen the average man on the street? They can barley speak english. Are you saying the have the potential just poor education? | 08:26 |
| phm_ | they* | 08:27 |
| eleitl | Sure. If the enviroment is right, and you drive you hard enough, the sky's the limit. | 08:27 |
| eleitl | My kid is way smarter than I was as his age, but he won't read. | 08:27 |
| ThomasEgi | eleitl, about that talking to god /listening to udevrandom... ever tried to search for the string "penis" in the udevrand output?... you'd be surprised^ | 08:27 |
| phm_ | Why won't he read? Isn't he curious? | 08:28 |
| eleitl | He's just too distracted with too much stuff. We did not nearly have such an enrichening environment back then, but at least we learned to focus. | 08:28 |
| eleitl | The penis is way mightier than the sword. | 08:28 |
| eleitl | He knew the letters and numbers with two. He doens't care to read, because he doesn't have to. | 08:29 |
| eleitl | There are audio books, and games, and stuff. | 08:29 |
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| eleitl | Computers, Internet, interaction with people. | 08:29 |
| radivis | hi people and especially eleitl | 08:29 |
| phm_ | Do you think this compromises his education? | 08:30 |
| eleitl | Hail! | 08:30 |
| eleitl | He won't educate himself, and we're not pushing him. He's supposed to have fun, the school will start soon enough. | 08:30 |
| eleitl | It's too easy to burn out kids on learning, if you cram them. | 08:30 |
| phm_ | Yeah, but maybe some pushing is good. | 08:30 |
| eleitl | A little, yes, but he mustn't notice. That is hard. | 08:31 |
| eleitl | Tricking them into learning is best. | 08:31 |
| phm_ | I guess the trick is to make learning fun | 08:31 |
| eleitl | Yes. | 08:31 |
| eleitl | We talk English in front of him, when he's not supposed to understand that. | 08:31 |
| eleitl | That's a motivator for him to pick it up :) | 08:32 |
| phm_ | Where are you from? Germany? | 08:32 |
| eleitl | Originally Russia, now Germany. I've lived in SoCal a couple years. | 08:32 |
| eleitl | Glad I left, San Bernhardino is shithole central. | 08:32 |
| eleitl | Whole area hit by the neutron bomb, in fact. | 08:33 |
| phm_ | What games does he like? Does he enjoy playing chess or go? | 08:34 |
| radivis | Why are there so many people in this channel? How did it become so popular? | 08:34 |
| eleitl | All kind of games, nothing too serious. He's tried chess on his Android, but I don't think he understands the moves. | 08:34 |
| phm_ | I think about education a lot cos my nephew is 1.25 years old. | 08:35 |
| eleitl | it's good, for a change. | 08:35 |
| eleitl | it's interesting to see what stuff kinds can generate | 08:35 |
| eleitl | you see the little wheels in motion | 08:35 |
| eleitl | they're great at Markov chains, too | 08:36 |
| eleitl | as an adult, it's hard to do that | 08:36 |
| eleitl | to them, it's effortless | 08:36 |
| phm_ | I will try to teach him Arimaa. I think it's more fun than chess or go. | 08:36 |
| eleitl | I try to interest him for science/physical layer things | 08:37 |
| eleitl | I think we'll make some thermite this spring | 08:37 |
| eleitl | kids love thermite | 08:37 |
| phm_ | hehe | 08:37 |
| phm_ | I saw the royal institution xmas lectures on chemistry, but it was too much bang bang and not enough theory, I thought. | 08:38 |
| eleitl | it was hard to explain to him how water comes from wood | 08:39 |
| eleitl | it was easier with colored legos | 08:39 |
| phm_ | How old? | 08:39 |
| eleitl | I think right now alchemy is as real to him as chemisry | 08:39 |
| eleitl | 6 and a few months. | 08:39 |
| eleitl | There's an alchemy game for Android, which is teaching the kids all the wrong things. | 08:40 |
| eleitl | actually I'm a bit scared about who's supposed to do all the R&D | 08:41 |
| phm_ | dunno. I wonder if it's bad to let kids near computers or tv until they're much older. | 08:41 |
| eleitl | everybody is too busy with having fun | 08:41 |
| eleitl | his TV is extremely rationed. so is computer. | 08:41 |
| eleitl | luckily, he doesn't game a lot | 08:42 |
| eleitl | have you noticed how just simple spelling skills have gone completely to shit over just a couple decades? | 08:42 |
| phm_ | no. | 08:42 |
| eleitl | it's even worse with science | 08:42 |
| phm_ | Have they? | 08:42 |
| eleitl | I don't get it how they manage to try so cram so much, and so little sticks. | 08:43 |
| eleitl | When was peak education? Mid-1970s? | 08:43 |
| phm_ | A lot of education is bad. | 08:43 |
| phm_ | Why is that a peak? | 08:44 |
| eleitl | I can't quite tell, and it differs by the region. Some are still climbing. | 08:44 |
| eleitl | At least for the US, 1974 was a curious year. | 08:44 |
| eleitl | Many things peak, why not education. | 08:44 |
| phm_ | I'm 100% self taught. Not sure how that's working out for me. | 08:44 |
| eleitl | University was a complete waste of time. | 08:44 |
| phm_ | or self taught after the age of 17 | 08:45 |
| eleitl | Should have staid home instead. | 08:45 |
| eleitl | I think properly self-motivated people should self-educate. | 08:45 |
| eleitl | As long as you have access to literature, and can do experiments. | 08:45 |
| phm_ | yeah | 08:46 |
| eleitl | I wonder what libgen & Co will do to people. The amount of materials is amazing, but what will people do with them? | 08:46 |
| phm_ | suck it up | 08:47 |
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| phm_ | We need better software | 08:50 |
| phm_ | I wonder if http://hypothes.is/ will be good | 08:50 |
| phm_ | but I'm not sure how far I want to take the mind-machine interface | 08:56 |
| phm_ | I used to like the idea of global consciousness. Sharing everything. No individuality. Gaia. But now I'm afraid. | 08:57 |
| eudoxia | jesus christ how horrifying | 08:58 |
| phm_ | What? | 08:59 |
| eudoxia | just... in general | 08:59 |
| phm_ | losing your ego? | 08:59 |
| eudoxia | i like being me ;_; | 08:59 |
| phm_ | but you'll like being gaia even more. | 09:00 |
| eudoxia | it's not an ideal or anything but it's just fine | 09:00 |
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| ThomasEgi | phm_, ... sharing everything.. that's sorta.. gross.. i really don't want certain stuff to be shared with me.. | 09:00 |
| phm_ | I do. I hate secrets. | 09:00 |
| phm_ | but it is scary | 09:01 |
| ThomasEgi | i mean.. look at all the stuff on the internet.. | 09:01 |
| eudoxia | i'm with thomas egi on this one | 09:01 |
| ThomasEgi | you really want everything you find there to be shared with you? | 09:01 |
| phm_ | yes, I don't have to think about it all consciously | 09:02 |
| ThomasEgi | my bet would be you'd end up suiciding after a single day of shared experiences | 09:02 |
| eudoxia | lies and speculation | 09:02 |
| phm_ | heh | 09:02 |
| ThomasEgi | i mean.. just browse /b/ and think over it again. | 09:03 |
| phm_ | I never do | 09:03 |
| ThomasEgi | maybe you should, for a change. and think about that shared stuff again. | 09:03 |
| phm_ | I wont go near 4chan. I am very sensitive | 09:03 |
| ThomasEgi | in this case.. you'd probably suicide in a matter of minutes rather than a day | 09:03 |
| ThomasEgi | oh wait.. i misread your initial statement about it. | 09:04 |
| phm_ | I know all the bad things that humanity is capable of. I don't see why it would make me want to kill myself. | 09:04 |
| ThomasEgi | i thought you liked the idea. | 09:04 |
| phm_ | I do | 09:04 |
| eudoxia | phm_ you and AlonzoTG would really fit together | 09:05 |
| phm_ | in what way? | 09:05 |
| eudoxia | he hates uploading and believes hive minds are more realistic and better | 09:05 |
| phm_ | ahh | 09:05 |
| phm_ | I don't normally spend a lot of time thinking about it. | 09:05 |
| phm_ | too distant | 09:05 |
| ThomasEgi | i'd say share the information worth it. and don't share the rest. | 09:06 |
| phm_ | but I didn't sleep much today and I'm kind of trippy | 09:06 |
| ThomasEgi | everything else will end up like most dropboxes do.. full with gazillion of double-files and usless information | 09:06 |
| phm_ | but we will have better software to sort it and rate it | 09:07 |
| phm_ | so it doesn't matter if everything is shared | 09:08 |
| ThomasEgi | sort and rate according to what?.. everyone may be looking for something different. | 09:09 |
| radivis | You just need good personalized filtering software. Then group minds can be fun and useful and not disturbing and distracting | 09:10 |
| phm_ | right | 09:11 |
| radivis | Make the filtering parameters also dependent on your mood. | 09:11 |
| eudoxia | you guys make uploading seem simple | 09:11 |
| radivis | At some times you want not to be distracted by anything, while at others you may be interested in almost anything | 09:11 |
| radivis | Group minds don't require uploading. Only neural interfaces. | 09:12 |
| phm_ | it doesn't imply uploading. Just a better mind-machine interface | 09:12 |
| radivis | I think one of the greatest challenges will be translating more abstract thoughts into a format that can be interpreted correctly by other minds. | 09:13 |
| radivis | People would also have to learn to think more clearly when they want to share those ideas with others | 09:14 |
| phm_ | lojban not good enough? :) | 09:14 |
| radivis | Who speaks or thinks in Lojban? | 09:15 |
| phm_ | very few, at the moment | 09:15 |
| ThomasEgi | i tried learning it. but noone joined me. and talking to yourself doesn't really make it worth learning | 09:15 |
| phm_ | I'd like to learn it, but it's not a priority | 09:15 |
| radivis | Yeah, there are lots of other things that should have a higher priority than learning on obscure language | 09:16 |
| phm_ | isn't there an irc chan to practice in? | 09:16 |
| radivis | But that probably also means that people also wouldn't bother to learn how to think more clearly in order to share abstract thoughts easily | 09:17 |
| ThomasEgi | if it's just about thinking patterns. unless you think in words you'r not really bound to any language | 09:17 |
| radivis | So what will be shared in group minds will probably just be sensory data and emotions. | 09:17 |
| * ThomasEgi doesnt want to be shared an emotion with some unstable 13 year old just-broken-up-teenager | 09:18 | |
| radivis | In what data format do you save "thinking patterns"? | 09:18 |
| ThomasEgi | depends on how you think | 09:18 |
| radivis | So you need a new data format for every person or even every single thought? That will lead us nowhere! | 09:19 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah | 09:19 |
| phm_ | I think there are good ideas about this in GEB, but I can't recall them | 09:19 |
| ThomasEgi | some people think in very numerical ways. other are more the musician types. some think in a lot of colors, personlly most of my thinking happens in volumetric objects as it fits my needs well | 09:20 |
| radivis | I think people would generally restrict sharing emotions with their closest peers. | 09:20 |
| ThomasEgi | and you'd definetly want an emotion-firewall. | 09:21 |
| radivis | But it would be cool if people broadcasted their emotions to people in their proximity. On the other hand they already do that via mimics, gestures and so on | 09:21 |
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| radivis | Perhaps we won't have large group minds, but more like peer to peer networks with very small groups of people sharing mind contents directly | 09:23 |
| phm_ | How do people find their way to this channel? Is it advertised anywhere? I came because eleitl suggested it on ZS maillist | 09:24 |
| radivis | Yeah, I came from that direction, too, phm_ | 09:24 |
| eudoxia | i found it years ago when looking for hplus irc channels | 09:25 |
| eudoxia | accidentally ran into a link on the acceleratingfuture h+ wiki (the one that's down now) | 09:26 |
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| ParahSai1in | paperbot: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2008/jm/b809212e | 09:36 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Bionanocomposites%20based%20on%20poly%28-caprolactone%29-grafted%20cellulose%20nanocrystals%20by%20ring-opening%20polymerization.pdf | 09:36 |
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| ParahSai1in | paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bm701111z | 09:38 |
| paperbot | error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Biosynthesis%20of%20an%20Amphiphilic%20Silk-Like%20Polymer.pdf | 09:39 |
| ParahSai1in | paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bm800012x | 09:40 |
| paperbot | error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Deformation%20Responses%20of%20a%20Physically%20Cross-Linked%20High%20Molecular%20Weight%20Elastin-Like%20Protein%20Polymer.pdf | 09:41 |
| ParahSai1in | paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bm8001717 | 09:43 |
| paperbot | error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Highly%20Filled%20Bionanocomposites%20from%20Functionalized%20Polysaccharide%20Nanocrystals.pdf | 09:43 |
| phm_ | Wonder how many people here experiment on themselves with nootropics. I've been considering Modafinil. | 09:44 |
| eleitl | good for long drives | 09:44 |
| eleitl | little else | 09:44 |
| ParahSai1in | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002197970701199X | 09:45 |
| paperbot | KeyError: u'\u2013' (file "/usr/lib/python2.7/urllib.py", line 1268, in quote) | 09:45 |
| eleitl | amphetamines are about the only ones to get you stuff done, but you pay for it | 09:45 |
| phm_ | How? | 09:46 |
| eleitl | most tweakers are not Paul Erdos | 09:47 |
| eleitl | he could pace it. they can't. | 09:47 |
| phm_ | I wish I knew why my motivation levels vary | 09:48 |
| * eleitl probably has ADHD | 09:48 | |
| phm_ | I've been told that. but I didn't really believe them | 09:49 |
| strangewarp | I tried 250mg cognizin + 30mg noopept + 500mg alpha-GPC. Now I'm trying 500mg cognizin + 650mg choline citrate. Weirdly the latter combo works better for me. Might add noopept and piracetam back into the mix once I'm making independent-person money as well. | 09:50 |
| strangewarp | Modafinil is a stimulant, and I'm always suspicious of stimulants. I have an addictive personality so I try to stay away from them. Except caffeine, where I've already lost that battle. | 09:51 |
| eleitl | Rhodiola rosea and Eleutherococcus senticosus seems to work for me, along with the usual stuff. | 09:51 |
| eleitl | Modafinil doesn't stimulate me. It's a subtle effect. | 09:51 |
| strangewarp | hmm.. | 09:53 |
| eleitl | I had to take one 100 mg yesterday, due to mostly sleepless night | 09:54 |
| eleitl | Doesn't even help that much | 09:54 |
| phm_ | Do you have a routine? Or just sleep when you feel like it? | 09:55 |
| eleitl | I sleep regularly and well, except when I don't. | 09:55 |
| eleitl | Too much alcohol, and you wake up at 3 a.m. | 09:55 |
| phm_ | in 24 hour cycle? | 09:55 |
| eleitl | 40 hour week, completely regular sleep schedule. and far too regular beer schedule. | 09:56 |
| eleitl | When you're clocking 4 beers daily, it's not exactly good. | 09:56 |
| phm_ | So stop doing it | 09:56 |
| eleitl | sometimes I do. No white mice, so far. | 09:57 |
| eleitl | Liver hasn't pulled an uncle gaby on me, either. | 09:57 |
| phm_ | Do you drink alone? I thought you said you didn't like other people. | 09:57 |
| eleitl | Alone. At home. In the rain. | 09:58 |
| eleitl | :) | 09:58 |
| phm_ | Which brand of beer? | 09:58 |
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| eleitl | Jever seems to be the best pilsener there is. | 09:59 |
| eleitl | I should probably drink myself through the whole of Czech republic, though, to make sure. | 10:00 |
| phm_ | (: | 10:00 |
| eudoxia | lol | 10:00 |
| eleitl | For science! | 10:00 |
| phm_ | Have you tried brewing your own? | 10:01 |
| ParahSai1in | paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1021%2Fbm061215p | 10:01 |
| eleitl | Pilsener is very unforgiving. | 10:01 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Enzymatic%20Hydrolysis%20Combined%20with%20Mechanical%20Shearing%20and%20High-Pressure%20Homogenization%20for%20Nanoscale%20Cellulose%20Fibrils%20and%20Strong%20Gels.txt | 10:01 |
| eleitl | You'll need a fridge, and good sterile technique. | 10:01 |
| ParahSai1in | paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bm061215p | 10:01 |
| paperbot | error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Enzymatic%20Hydrolysis%20Combined%20with%20Mechanical%20Shearing%20and%20High-Pressure%20Homogenization%20for%20Nanoscale%20Cellulose%20Fibrils%20and%20Strong%20Gels.pdf | 10:01 |
| eleitl | probably getting decent hops is also difficult, though I could just drive to Holledau, and pick it fresh | 10:02 |
| eleitl | I think the pellet ones are no good | 10:03 |
| phm_ | micro brewery could be a good startup idea. | 10:03 |
| eleitl | anyone brews beer with reverse osmosis water? | 10:03 |
| eleitl | we have it on tap, in the lab. | 10:03 |
| * eleitl lives in the land of good beer | 10:04 | |
| eleitl | Though the accursed Belgians are buying up local brew icons, and ruining them. | 10:04 |
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| eleitl | I wish I would live in .uy | 10:13 |
| phm_ | what does 'friends don't let friends do super college' mean? | 10:14 |
| eleitl | jinx: http://imgur.com/gallery/Rm1We8B | 10:14 |
| radivis | Gah, I accumulated too much sleep debt. I'd like to avoid that in the future. Does anyone know how to fall asleep fast and reliably? | 10:14 |
| eleitl | just let the head hit the pillow | 10:15 |
| eleitl | boom, out | 10:15 |
| phm_ | hot toddy? | 10:15 |
| eleitl | I think the best I've done was seconds | 10:15 |
| eleitl | whoops, time to crawl home | 10:15 |
| eleitl | good night | 10:15 |
| radivis | Direct pillow head collisions often don't have a sufficient impact for me | 10:17 |
| phm_ | Why does it have to be fast? | 10:17 |
| radivis | Because time in bed not sleeping when wanting to is time wasted | 10:17 |
| radivis | And it just adds to my sleep deficit account | 10:18 |
| radivis | I use an Android app that makes soothing noises. It's relatively effective, but I thought there must be better stuff | 10:18 |
| phm_ | I like falling asleep slowly | 10:19 |
| radivis | I like falling alseep hallucinating from tiredness. | 10:19 |
| radivis | But usually doing that is a bad sign | 10:19 |
| phm_ | What's your record uptime? | 10:19 |
| radivis | 40 hours or so. On a LAN party playing too much Diablo. I heard the screams of the monsters all the time at the end in my head. | 10:20 |
| phm_ | heh | 10:20 |
| radivis | Fun experience. But I prefer having slept sufficient amounts of time. | 10:21 |
| radivis | I have been tracking my performance and the time I sleep. It turned out that they were not correlated at all. | 10:22 |
| phm_ | performance at what? | 10:22 |
| radivis | The conclusion I have drawn is to get as much sleep as I can | 10:22 |
| phm_ | Have you tried polyphasic patterns? | 10:23 |
| radivis | Doing productive stuff generally. I track how much time I spend and whether I reach pre-defined goals | 10:23 |
| radivis | I'm using an achievement point system for that | 10:23 |
| radivis | Polyphasic is not good for me. | 10:24 |
| radivis | I guess. Even biphasic messes me up | 10:24 |
| phm_ | How long did you do it for? I guess it takes a while to be comfortable with it | 10:25 |
| radivis | I actually never did that on purpose. It always happened accidentially after I've taken a prolonged nap in the afternoon | 10:26 |
| phm_ | heh. Same for me. | 10:26 |
| radivis | Such naps quickly become a regular habit that's hard to break | 10:26 |
| phm_ | I want to try sleeping only 15 mins at a time and stuff, but it's probably unhealthy | 10:28 |
| radivis | I don't know. Stephe Pavlina did quite well on a polyphasic schedule. But only for half a year or so | 10:29 |
| radivis | I guess he was just annoyed that half the day the rest of the world is in hibernation, so he's alone. | 10:30 |
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| nsh | you get used to it | 10:37 |
| archels | did he try it before the internet? | 10:37 |
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| radivis | the internet is a lie... what where am I writing this? | 10:43 |
| eudoxia | eleitl: when/if the bombs start falling you can come stay with us | 10:44 |
| eudoxia | bring as many dewars as you like | 10:44 |
| nsh | when did the bombs stop falling? | 10:44 |
| radivis | Bomb? Whose bombs? | 10:44 |
| * nsh must have missed the memo | 10:45 | |
| eudoxia | resource wars/mike darwin drama/The Happening | 10:45 |
| phm_ | bed time. bye | 10:47 |
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| @kanzure | eleitl: yes please don't bring zero state people in here. those guys are terrible. | 11:22 |
| chris_99 | zero state? | 11:23 |
| @kanzure | eleitl: i recommend ikiwiki. diyhpl.us hosts ikiwiki instances and we'd be happy to host yours if you'd like. it's based on git. http://diyhpl.us/wiki has instructions at the bottom that would be similar for another ikiwiki instance. | 11:25 |
| @kanzure | juri_: i'm pretty sure trac is universally hated | 11:25 |
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| @kanzure | eleitl: the issue with martin is that he has some suspicious requirements for anyone to work with him | 11:30 |
| @kanzure | eleitl: irssi logging, http://www.chovy.com/linux/logging-irssi-and-rotating-them-with-logrotate/ | 11:30 |
| @kanzure | 06:18 < eleitl> Look! I've cut myself! I'm a transhuman, because a have a rare earth magnet in my fingertip! | 11:32 |
| @kanzure | 06:19 < eleitl> Bow before me! | 11:32 |
| @kanzure | eleitl: zindell writes an awful lot like gene wolfe, but uses some fantasy elements in some conspicuous places. http://heybryan.org/docs/Zindell, David - Neverness (v1.0).txt | 11:35 |
| @kanzure | phm_: could you do me a favor and leave your wacky theories about the human brain/emotions/logic out of here? | 11:35 |
| @kanzure | phm_: also you should realize that eliezer's explicit mission is anti-transhumanist in nature.. not many people understand this, even thuogh he keeps shouting it at the top of his lungs. | 11:41 |
| @kanzure | radivis: this channel has people because it's the longest-living transhumanism channel. and we do things. | 11:46 |
| @kanzure | eleitl: libgen will do nothing for people; you should note that there's still only 1 seeder for it. nobody is bothering to seed it. | 11:47 |
| @kanzure | phm_: global consciousness is even more ridiculous than regular consciousness, which people can't even define. it's like believing in magic or a soul. | 11:47 |
| radivis | kanzure: Why do you answer to phm_ even though he's not in the channel anymore? | 11:49 |
| radivis | And what things do you do in this channel? | 11:50 |
| @kanzure | eleitl: what do you mean paul erdos could "pace" it? what does pacing mean in this context? | 11:50 |
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| radivis | And most importantly: Why are Zero State people terrible. You mean that ironically, right? ;) | 11:50 |
| @kanzure | phm_: "friends don't let friends do super college" means friends don't let you go to grad school or worse. | 11:51 |
| @kanzure | it | 11:51 |
| ParahSai1in | erdos started taking amphetamines in his 60s it looks like | 11:52 |
| @kanzure | it's a terrible thing to put someone through. the pay is lousy and the relationships are bad. | 11:52 |
| ParahSai1in | i could understand needing a little help at that age to burn the candle at both ends | 11:52 |
| eudoxia | isn't Zero State some kind of cult | 11:53 |
| @kanzure | radivis: i was answering phm_ because i like to pretend that people read logs | 11:53 |
| eudoxia | a guy called Amon and his "lets change de world" religion, seemingly populated by people who haven't heard of all the failed late nineties h+ religions | 11:53 |
| @kanzure | radivis: no, i don't mean it ironically about zero state people. | 11:53 |
| eudoxia | wiki.transhumani.com/index.php?title=Transhumanist_Communities is a rather comprehensive list | 11:54 |
| @kanzure | ParahSai1in: yeah i know about paul's use of amphetamines, i just don't know what he means by "pacing". | 11:54 |
| ParahSai1in | zero state = anarchists, radical functional programming, or other? | 11:54 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: tracking failed communities sounds really boring | 11:54 |
| @kanzure | ParahSai1in: they aren't anarchists. | 11:54 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: someone has to record the failures so people won't repeat them | 11:54 |
| eudoxia | (i like to pretend anyone reads that wiki) | 11:54 |
| @kanzure | ParahSai1in: it's just another zeitgeist bullshit fest | 11:54 |
| eudoxia | ^ | 11:54 |
| ParahSai1in | so "other" | 11:54 |
| @kanzure | yes | 11:55 |
| eudoxia | zero state doesn't refer to no state, but to some other thing, like a "final state" | 11:55 |
| eudoxia | or whatever it's not like i can keep up with everyone's Internet religions | 11:55 |
| @kanzure | radivis: you can find some information about projects here, http://diyhpl.us/cgit | 11:55 |
| @kanzure | radivis: http://groups.google.com/group/diybio | 11:55 |
| @kanzure | radivis: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq | 11:55 |
| @kanzure | radivis: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/proposals | 11:56 |
| @kanzure | and if you're into fancy pictures, uh, https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer#readme | 11:56 |
| ParahSai1in | paperbot is the greatest achievement | 11:58 |
| @kanzure | paperbot is a god among mere mortals | 11:58 |
| @kanzure | i heard that paperbot has read a million papers. | 11:58 |
| radivis | And how many papers has paperbot written? | 11:59 |
| ParahSai1in | paperbot cast carmen ortiz into the outer darkness | 11:59 |
| @kanzure | paperbot is the reincarnation of aaronsw | 11:59 |
| @kanzure | .... sort of. | 11:59 |
| ParahSai1in | alcor dropped his frozen head, but from one crystalline fragment was recovered paperbot | 12:00 |
| @kanzure | i wish organometallica would record a music video inside alcor hq | 12:03 |
| radivis | I'll go ahead and copy your comments on Zero State on the Zero State mailing list. It seem that we need a better PR strategy, since there seem to be some really weird misconceptions about us. | 12:03 |
| @kanzure | radivis: no! no more pr. shit dude. you're completely misunderstanding us. | 12:03 |
| ParahSai1in | so PR me what it's actually about | 12:03 |
| @kanzure | radivis: amon already replied to my comments on zero state. he shat all over me. | 12:04 |
| @kanzure | he started claiming wild things like "oh obviously kanzure you must hate everyone" WHAT? no | 12:04 |
| @kanzure | fuck 'em | 12:04 |
| radivis | What comments have you made about Zero State initially? | 12:05 |
| radivis | When did that happen? | 12:05 |
| @kanzure | it was on your mailing list dude, learn to read? | 12:05 |
| @kanzure | within the last 6 months. | 12:05 |
| radivis | did you write as kanzure? | 12:05 |
| @kanzure | yes the emails originate from my email address | 12:06 |
| eudoxia | oh man i finally got the functional programming joke | 12:06 |
| eudoxia | it's because purely functional programming languages are STATELESS | 12:06 |
| eudoxia | hahahaha oh god i'm slow | 12:06 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: 3 hours of shame. | 12:06 |
| @kanzure | radivis: it's possible that amon filtered them out. | 12:08 |
| radivis | No, I just didn't see the name kanzure in the mailing list | 12:09 |
| radivis | But now I figured out who you are | 12:09 |
| ParahSai1in | not hard to do | 12:10 |
| @kanzure | http://postbiota.org/pipermail/tt/2012-December/012578.html | 12:10 |
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| @kanzure | http://postbiota.org/pipermail/tt/2012-December/012580.html | 12:11 |
| radivis | So you think transhumanism is all about technology and Zero State is not "technologically" focussed at all, right? | 12:11 |
| @kanzure | radivis: i was replying to amon's essay thing | 12:11 |
| radivis | That's all this nonsense disagreement is about? | 12:11 |
| @kanzure | radivis: it's not nonsense. his email was fucking awful. | 12:11 |
| @kanzure | you should read the things i linked, i suppose | 12:13 |
| radivis | I've read then but I can't see your point | 12:13 |
| eudoxia | i think transhumanism requires work, not blogging about the singularity and circlejerking about how we're the avant-garde of the human race while whacking it to GITS | 12:13 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: hey man if you've whacked it to GITS, don't tell us about it | 12:13 |
| radivis | What's your problem exactly, kanzure? | 12:14 |
| @kanzure | radivis: are you trying to make me like zero state? | 12:14 |
| @kanzure | or what is the nature of your question | 12:14 |
| radivis | No, I'm just trying to understand why you hate it | 12:14 |
| radivis | What's the point of this hate? | 12:15 |
| @kanzure | the hatred helps protect this channel from terrible things | 12:15 |
| radivis | Like what? | 12:15 |
| @kanzure | like zero state. it's yet another philosopher wasting my time with (first of all, terrible philosophies but also) rhetoric and zero contributions | 12:16 |
| @kanzure | oh look! he can configure wordpress. big deal. | 12:16 |
| @kanzure | and apparently he thinks i hate everyone. this guy is just totally careless. | 12:16 |
| radivis | He has created a big community. That's not exactly zero contribution. | 12:16 |
| @kanzure | your community sucks though? | 12:16 |
| eudoxia | and this community, what have they done? | 12:17 |
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| @kanzure | community wasn't the problem in the first place anyway | 12:17 |
| eudoxia | are they collaborating on a design for a rod logic computer? solving the protein folding problem? helping eleitl with his cryo org? | 12:17 |
| @kanzure | their concept of help is "let's write lots of articles about why we need community" | 12:17 |
| eudoxia | kirka's porting of nanoengineer to win7 has contributed more to transhumanism than all of Zero State | 12:18 |
| @kanzure | i believe that any effective technology group will need to begin with technology from the very start | 12:18 |
| eudoxia | it is about as useful as the Extreme Futurist Festival | 12:18 |
| radivis | We are trying to figure out how to organize a community to become productive and how to grow further. | 12:18 |
| @kanzure | why do you want to grow wtf | 12:18 |
| joehot | is transhumanism a concept of hubris or does it take transism of everything else for granted | 12:18 |
| eudoxia | look at this channel! focus on the doing, and they will come | 12:19 |
| @kanzure | joehot: transhumanism specifically refers to the concept of leveraging technologies to make more modifications to the ability to make modifications on a human | 12:19 |
| joehot | yes | 12:19 |
| joehot | but why just humans | 12:19 |
| radivis | Well, ZS focused on values, at the beginning, but also on getting things done | 12:19 |
| @kanzure | joehot: so you are saying whole brain emulation (for instance) is hubris ? or what.. | 12:19 |
| joehot | no | 12:19 |
| @kanzure | joehot: well, you can focus on mice if you like...? that's known as 'uplifting'. | 12:20 |
| joehot | no i mean | 12:20 |
| radivis | Looks like only focusing on getting things done creates communities with terrible manners | 12:20 |
| joehot | well other life is one thing | 12:20 |
| eudoxia | this channel didn't get to 70 people by focusing on "community building" | 12:20 |
| joehot | im asking if humans are the only objects that will require a fight | 12:20 |
| @kanzure | radivis: our manners are not terrible. you might just be overly sensitive. | 12:20 |
| @kanzure | joehot: a fight?? what? | 12:20 |
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| joehot | and transworld?ism is going to happen naturally | 12:21 |
| radivis | Ok, it could be worse, but critisizing other communities for nothing is not very constructive | 12:21 |
| @kanzure | radivis: well, it's also not my job to make sure zero state becomes something valuable. i just don't have the time to babysit everyone. | 12:21 |
| @kanzure | radivis: however, it does pose a particular problem because it's wasting a lot of my friend's time. and they could be doing other things instead. and they're not. :( | 12:21 |
| @kanzure | friends' time | 12:22 |
| radivis | So it's about protecting your friends from "wasting time"? | 12:22 |
| @kanzure | no | 12:22 |
| radivis | No? | 12:22 |
| @kanzure | you asked, i answered? | 12:22 |
| radivis | I still don't understand what this is all about | 12:23 |
| @kanzure | this channel? | 12:23 |
| radivis | No, your hate of Zero State | 12:23 |
| eudoxia | so i see projects about organization, media, philosophy, all that, but where are the actual projects? | 12:23 |
| eudoxia | as in, a project to upload the C. Elegans? | 12:23 |
| radivis | We just do our thing. And it's perhaps happening too slowly. So what? | 12:23 |
| eudoxia | that's the exact same thing the Extropians said 30 years ago | 12:24 |
| @kanzure | it's fully possible to have a project in media, philosophy, public relations, but i don't see that as being technology really. | 12:24 |
| eudoxia | all talk, all promises, and none of them bothered to pick up a textbook. so they achieved nothing. | 12:24 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: well they got into wired magazine. once. | 12:24 |
| @kanzure | that's... ok yeah. | 12:24 |
| radivis | Ok, I see what you mean | 12:24 |
| @kanzure | radivis: did eugen ask you to come here? | 12:25 |
| radivis | I also recognized some of those issue, and that's why I suggested a change of the Zero State organization to make it more dynamic, flexible, and productive. | 12:25 |
| @kanzure | radivis: changing an organization's policy will not change its contributors | 12:26 |
| radivis | Well. he advertised this channel on the Zero State mailing list. | 12:26 |
| @kanzure | i thought it would, and that's why i became director of R&D of humanityplus. huge, huge mistake. | 12:26 |
| radivis | I think our contributors are fine, but we were too badly organized to get a lot done. | 12:27 |
| eudoxia | kanzure tell him the story | 12:27 |
| eudoxia | it will make him a full convert | 12:27 |
| @kanzure | i suspect that zero state attracts people that are interested in talking about how to organize people more productively, but who themselves are not interested in becoming skilled in molecular biology, cryonics, electronics, welding, etc., and as a result your organization will always be self-limiting because of your current users. | 12:27 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: you tell it. i'm gonna go find lunch. | 12:28 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: btw feel free to add in a dragon or two into the story. you can slay one if you like. | 12:28 |
| radivis | So what if we are not interested in these fields. There are enough of other important things to do. | 12:28 |
| ParahSai1in | apparently one of the guys heres on the wetlab side tried to recycle a GAIIx (Illumina) flow cell | 12:29 |
| eudoxia | allright, so a long time ago humanity+/WTA made kanzure its director of research. back then he though he could get them back on the right track, doing things. he even started the Gada Prize, to develop a fully self-replicating 3D printer. | 12:29 |
| @kanzure | ParahSai1in: can i has? | 12:29 |
| ParahSai1in | didn't work and he dropped that project | 12:29 |
| ParahSai1in | presumably higher priorities somewhere else | 12:30 |
| radivis | What didn't work exactly? | 12:30 |
| eudoxia | but the h+/WTA people did nothing, and basically just kept the Gada prize site up. supposedly the prize was going to be handed out at the end of 2012, but naturally nobody knows there was even a prize. | 12:30 |
| eudoxia | they also had him move from drupal to wordpress and there was something bad about that but i don't remember it all | 12:30 |
| ParahSai1in | radivis: he doesnt work here anymore, and all i see is files from a failed run | 12:30 |
| radivis | Looks like internal communication in h+/WTA didn't work | 12:31 |
| eudoxia | so, radivius, exactly what do you think is more important than working on these technologies? getting public support? | 12:31 |
| joehot | public support wont come until the technology happens | 12:31 |
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| eudoxia | the future does not come by itself, technological determinism is a lie, you can't just wait for the 'glorious transhuman future' so you can say 'i predicted this all along!!' | 12:31 |
| radivis | My personal view is that it's most important to spread the right values | 12:32 |
| eudoxia | and these are? | 12:32 |
| eudoxia | specifically | 12:32 |
| radivis | It's complicated. That's why they need to be discussed. | 12:32 |
| eudoxia | allright, let me speculate | 12:32 |
| eudoxia | optimism re:the future | 12:32 |
| eudoxia | the proactive use of technology | 12:33 |
| eudoxia | boundless expansion | 12:33 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: you forgot the part about the humanityplus people not changing in the last 30 years at all. | 12:33 |
| eudoxia | using technology to make people happy | 12:33 |
| radivis | I am a utilitarian personally, but utilitarianism doesn't seem to be popular enough to be sucessful | 12:33 |
| eudoxia | kanzure i mentioned that thing about them not reading a single textbook in 30 years | 12:33 |
| eudoxia | radivius, that's what the extropians advocated | 12:33 |
| @kanzure | no that was the extropians | 12:33 |
| eudoxia | thirty years go | 12:33 |
| radivis | Zero State is more about balance and not letting anyone be left behind | 12:33 |
| eudoxia | they even got a magazine out | 12:33 |
| eudoxia | and they still did nothing. they spread values around, but what did that achieve¿? | 12:34 |
| @kanzure | "not letting anyone be left behind".. why is that my responsibility? screw that. those people can just use open source tech just like the rest of us. | 12:34 |
| eudoxia | well around here we have this idea that open manufacturing, etc. can allow people not to be left behind | 12:34 |
| @kanzure | at the risk of throwing gasoline onto the flames, http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration | 12:34 |
| eudoxia | look into molecular manufacturing, open manufacturing, Open Source Ecology; all that | 12:35 |
| radivis | They can maybe, if they have enough to eat, a computer, education and all that stuff you take for granted. | 12:35 |
| eudoxia | and that is exactly what open manufacturing is about | 12:35 |
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| @kanzure | who said i take that for granted? fuck you | 12:35 |
| eudoxia | letting every village have a space program | 12:35 |
| eudoxia | and, of course, drinking water, food, medicine | 12:35 |
| radivis | Yeah, ok, open manufacturing is great. But is not very helpful if almost nobody knows about it. | 12:35 |
| @kanzure | not true | 12:35 |
| @kanzure | GNU is exceedingly helpful even though few people know about it | 12:36 |
| eudoxia | ^ | 12:36 |
| eudoxia | personally I'm waiting for OSE to get to the point where people actually start building those machines en masse | 12:36 |
| eudoxia | mostly in the third world | 12:36 |
| @kanzure | w | 12:36 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: yeah i don't think that's going to happen with OSE. it's.. complicated. | 12:36 |
| radivis | So you are just waiting? | 12:37 |
| @kanzure | i would like it to happen, but their machine designs are like 400 wiki pages and not updated or something | 12:37 |
| eudoxia | kanzure and fenn were also working on this thing called SKDB, like a package manager for ahrdware | 12:37 |
| @kanzure | radivis: he misspoke. | 12:37 |
| eudoxia | hardware* | 12:37 |
| radivis | yeah, of course :P | 12:37 |
| eudoxia | i think ybit works directly with OSE | 12:37 |
| eudoxia | SKDB is stuck on CAD related issues, but i think that's solvable | 12:38 |
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| eudoxia | also, we are trying to this program, NanoEngineer, a molecular modelling and simulation program for molecular nanotechnology updated | 12:38 |
| eudoxia | so you can contribute to NanoEngineer, SKDB, OSE, open access for scientific journals, open source lab tech | 12:39 |
| radivis | Look, I appreciate that you actually go forward an develop these technologies. But developing technologies alone is not everything. | 12:39 |
| radivis | It won't solve all the problems of the world. | 12:39 |
| eudoxia | it is when it is those technologies themselves that spread the values around | 12:39 |
| eudoxia | have you considered that? | 12:39 |
| radivis | I think that's a pretty extreme simplification. | 12:40 |
| radivis | Values depend on much more than technology alone. | 12:40 |
| joehot | ok. what are you doing to spread the values | 12:40 |
| radivis | I'm working on sci-fi stories myself. | 12:41 |
| joehot | waw. | 12:41 |
| radivis | There's also blogging and discussing and stuff | 12:41 |
| joehot | so do you have any past examples of scifi triggering an embrace of technological revolution | 12:42 |
| eudoxia | i noticed | 12:42 |
| joehot | most scifi is rejected at the time and only picked up decades later because it came true | 12:42 |
| radivis | I'm not so much into the history of the effects of sci-fi on the embracing of technological revolutions | 12:42 |
| joehot | im asking you how you think you are helping | 12:43 |
| radivis | My own approach is more indirect | 12:43 |
| eudoxia | oh radivis = radical vision | 12:43 |
| eudoxia | that's kinda clever | 12:43 |
| radivis | Yes, eudoxia | 12:43 |
| eudoxia | i read it as radivius and thought it was some latin thing | 12:43 |
| radivis | I try to influence the influencers who get things into movement | 12:44 |
| radivis | ^^ | 12:44 |
| eudoxia | why not be one of the influencers? | 12:45 |
| joehot | because he thinks he cant | 12:45 |
| ParahSai1in | OSE needs more redneck, less hipster | 12:45 |
| eudoxia | cut all those layers of abstraction and pick up Molecular Biology of the Cell | 12:45 |
| radivis | As one who influences influencers I am an influencer, aren't I? | 12:45 |
| joehot | do you have proof that you are influencing anyone, much less influencers | 12:45 |
| eudoxia | yes, i was just going to ask that | 12:46 |
| radivis | I have no proof. I actually haven't done very much yet actually | 12:46 |
| radivis | I just believe that my own approach is the best thing I can do. | 12:46 |
| @kanzure | ParahSai1in: i recently met some foreign rednecks and i was actually amazed at how much they got done on their own. | 12:46 |
| @kanzure | ParahSai1in: they had an underground battle bridge with 18 foot lathes and submachine guns. | 12:47 |
| radivis | I don't care very much about specific technologies, but more about people using them in the right ways. And about society functioning well, so that all have a life worth living. | 12:47 |
| @kanzure | radivis: our goal is not to "solve all the problems of the world".. anyone telling you otherwise is a liar. | 12:48 |
| radivis | ok | 12:48 |
| ParahSai1in | kanzure: wait what? | 12:48 |
| @kanzure | what are you whatting? | 12:48 |
| joehot | i think the biggest obstacle to technological embrace is complacency. incidentally, technology helps to remove complacency | 12:48 |
| ParahSai1in | what sort of foreign rednecks were these? insurgent arms factory? | 12:49 |
| @kanzure | ParahSai1in: nope. just a welder/machinist couple. | 12:49 |
| radivis | What about gaming technology? Doesn't that create more complacency? | 12:49 |
| joehot | if the games were good, people would stop putting up with the trash they 'play' now | 12:50 |
| ParahSai1in | battle bridge? | 12:50 |
| joehot | actually thats a little overassuming | 12:50 |
| @kanzure | ParahSai1in: that's what i call their machine shop | 12:50 |
| joehot | only the nerds are into the interactive movies | 12:50 |
| ParahSai1in | ah | 12:50 |
| @kanzure | radivis: by any chance are you a pokemon master | 12:50 |
| joehot | oh stop | 12:51 |
| radivis | Nope, never played pokemon | 12:51 |
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| joehot | to say games increase complacency misunderstands games | 12:51 |
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| joehot | games are about people. they let you do things with people that you couldn't otherwise. | 12:52 |
| radivis | What about single player games? | 12:53 |
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| joehot | what's the difference? | 12:54 |
| joehot | games dont just take place in the literal game | 12:54 |
| ParahSai1in | speaking of foreign rednecks, i have a friend in china whose family farm has all kind of stranded (in the sense of no use, so rots in the field) crops, one of which is a fiber plant | 12:54 |
| radivis | What do you mean with that, joehot? | 12:54 |
| ParahSai1in | im trying to figure out how he can make nanocellulose out of that | 12:54 |
| joehot | games dont end after you stop playing them | 12:55 |
| @kanzure | ParahSai1in: is nanocellulose different from regular cellulose particulates? | 12:56 |
| joehot | talking to someone about a game is part of the game | 12:56 |
| ParahSai1in | kanzure: microfibrillated cellulose is supposed to be magic | 12:56 |
| radivis | Surely for some, but not for all, joehot | 12:57 |
| joehot | how so | 12:57 |
| radivis | There are many different types of gamers | 12:57 |
| radivis | And different reasons for gaming | 12:58 |
| joehot | im not going to entertain that fallacy | 12:58 |
| radivis | Anyway, I didn't want to get into a discussion about gaming | 12:58 |
| joehot | i agree | 12:58 |
| eudoxia | yes guise seriously | 12:58 |
| eudoxia | this is a serious channel for serious projects | 12:59 |
| radivis | There's this issue that eleitl invited Zero State members to come here, but they don't seem to be welcome. | 12:59 |
| eudoxia | on that note, kanzure, do you think implicitcad can help you get pass the SKDB stagnation? | 12:59 |
| radivis | This needs to be resolved somehow | 12:59 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: i think brlcad is the best bet. | 13:00 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: they have been throwing some students at replacing the missing opennurbs pieces. | 13:00 |
| radivis | One possibility is not to talk about Zero State in this channel, but that would be kinda disappointing | 13:00 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: so it's got proper nurbs now? | 13:00 |
| @kanzure | no | 13:00 |
| radivis | There would be no synergy between this channel and Zero State then. | 13:00 |
| @kanzure | radivis: maybe you guys should stop lying about being transhumanist | 13:00 |
| joehot | when i said complacency i was talking more about the idea that harmful things are good because we're 'enlightened' now and everything that was common sense 100 years ago is totally bogus because we're smarter than before | 13:00 |
| @kanzure | radivis: it just causes problems i think | 13:00 |
| @kanzure | and then you fool eugen leitl | 13:00 |
| eudoxia | radivis: keep the philosophy in zero state and the h+ projects here | 13:00 |
| radivis | What? Zero State has transhumanists, but it doesn't even officically to be a transhumanist organization. It's more implicit. | 13:01 |
| radivis | And why would you need to be a transhumanist to get technical stuff done anyway? Isn't transhumanism irrelevant in the context of this channel anyway? | 13:02 |
| eudoxia | yes, you are "the New" | 13:02 |
| @kanzure | radivis: nope, you don't need to be transhumanist to do things of course. | 13:02 |
| eudoxia | no, you certainly don't | 13:02 |
| joehot | and if that's the case, why is zero state relevant? | 13:03 |
| eudoxia | it is not | 13:03 |
| joehot | if someone is saying that this channel is good to talk about zero state, take it up with him, not us | 13:03 |
| @kanzure | well, eugen usually has a good bullshit filter | 13:03 |
| radivis | Because Zero State is about making the world a better place for all. Just in a transhumanism-compatible and inspired way. | 13:03 |
| @kanzure | i'm not sure what's going on in this case | 13:03 |
| @kanzure | http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-BioPrinter/ | 13:04 |
| ParahSai1in | scientology is about making the world a better place forall | 13:04 |
| @kanzure | i wonder why biocurious chose to publish on instructables.. what a bizarre choice. | 13:04 |
| radivis | Zero State focuses more on the societal aspects rather than the technological ones. But actually it embraces the whole spectrum. At least if activities remain compatible to the ethical principles. | 13:05 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: i wonder as well | 13:05 |
| @kanzure | 'embraces' | 13:06 |
| radivis | Scientology is a religion. Zero State wants to become a virtual nation. | 13:06 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=9263b046 Bryan Bishop: add a link to the biocurious printer | 13:08 |
| ParahSai1in | Seasteading Institute also is about making the world a better place ∀ | 13:08 |
| @kanzure | radivis: btw, in case it hasn't been obvious, you are very welcome to stay around in here | 13:08 |
| @kanzure | eleitl: i see you sending emails, don't pretend to be away.. | 13:08 |
| radivis | So Zero State members are welcome here, but this chanell doesn't see a point in accociating with Zero State officially? | 13:09 |
| @kanzure | yes | 13:09 |
| @kanzure | reddit users are also allowed in here, but they usually end up kickbanned | 13:09 |
| radivis | That's a stance I can live with | 13:09 |
| radivis | How do you recognize reddit users? What's so bad about them? | 13:10 |
| ParahSai1in | reddit is just a forum technology like google groups, irc, or bbs | 13:10 |
| @kanzure | they are very easy to recognize | 13:10 |
| @kanzure | just based on text and trolling | 13:10 |
| eudoxia | le | 13:10 |
| radivis | What's the difference to IRC then? ;) | 13:10 |
| @kanzure | ParahSai1in: if only | 13:11 |
| ParahSai1in | i use some forums on reddit | 13:14 |
| radivis | Ok, so what if a project wants to be supported both by Zero State and this community? Would there be a problem with that? | 13:15 |
| @kanzure | radivis: what does supported mean? | 13:15 |
| radivis | Using the infrastructure of ZS. | 13:15 |
| @kanzure | like if you want to commit to the git repos, go right ahead | 13:15 |
| radivis | Web sites, eventually funds | 13:15 |
| ParahSai1in | that last word always just sneaks up | 13:16 |
| eudoxia | haha | 13:16 |
| @kanzure | what websites in particular? i'm skeptical that zero state has any web developers worth their salt. | 13:16 |
| radivis | Well, at the moment it really looks like we are lacking them | 13:16 |
| joehot | what do you have? | 13:17 |
| radivis | At the moment we mostly have a community | 13:17 |
| @kanzure | radivis: web development isn't hard. you should learn it. | 13:17 |
| radivis | A blog, a mailing list, and a wiki that will soon be restructured | 13:17 |
| radivis | In a few years we might have some serious funds | 13:18 |
| radivis | I am actually learning web development | 13:18 |
| radivis | I'm trying to create a web based reputation system/economy | 13:18 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: i'm trying to git clone skdb but it says the connection is refused | 13:18 |
| eudoxia | ;_; | 13:18 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: yes the git server is broken, i did something terrible | 13:19 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: the version on github is current | 13:20 |
| eudoxia | allright, i tried going there but it said it was last updated three years ago | 13:20 |
| eudoxia | and i remember fenn pushing something to the one on diyhpl.us | 13:20 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: also if you have an ssh account on diyhpl.us you can just git clone eudoxia@diyhpl.us:/srv/git/skdb.git | 13:20 |
| @kanzure | oh okay. one moment then. | 13:20 |
| ParahSai1in | radivis: reputation system/economy? | 13:20 |
| radivis | http://radivis.com/public/quantifiedprestige002.pdf | 13:21 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: ok github has been updated | 13:21 |
| eudoxia | thanks | 13:21 |
| radivis | I've developed this Quantified Prestige architecture that is based on users allocating esteem points to each other | 13:22 |
| radivis | I'm struggling with implementing that in software, since I'm not an experienced programmer. | 13:22 |
| ParahSai1in | how is it different from similar ideas? | 13:22 |
| radivis | Are some Django developers here in this community by accident? | 13:23 |
| @kanzure | yes i do django development | 13:23 |
| radivis | It's more awesome and complicated, and it's actually sophisticated enough to be a basis for a real economy. | 13:23 |
| ParahSai1in | kanzure: off-hand, what is your go-to platform? | 13:23 |
| eudoxia | i know a little django | 13:23 |
| radivis | Other systems weren't intended to serve as basis for a sensible reputation based economy | 13:24 |
| ParahSai1in | radivis: heh, that doesnt answer anything about my question | 13:24 |
| @kanzure | ParahSai1in: it depends on the project entirely. | 13:24 |
| radivis | I might tell you more if you tell me what "similar ideas" you have in mind | 13:25 |
| @kanzure | ParahSai1in: recently i have been using sqlalchemy/flask/python for a large project. | 13:25 |
| @kanzure | ParahSai1in: most consulting work ends up being in ruby/rails. | 13:25 |
| radivis | In the document I compared QP to reddit, Klout, and regular money allocation | 13:25 |
| ParahSai1in | radivis: i would have guessed that you would have researched a lot of the similar ideas in making your own | 13:25 |
| radivis | No, I actually didn't do that. I developed my system from scratch without bothering a lot about other ideas | 13:26 |
| ParahSai1in | kanzure: ah | 13:26 |
| ParahSai1in | radivis: yeah, thats kind of what i'm getting at | 13:26 |
| radivis | It was more like finding a solution to a mathematical problem | 13:26 |
| radivis | How a reputation economy must be designed so that it can actually work | 13:27 |
| ParahSai1in | see, when people do that, they frequently just end up with some failed idea that someone else tried to come up with | 13:27 |
| radivis | I haven't found anything that really looks like Quantified Prestige. | 13:27 |
| joehot | isnt this just karma | 13:28 |
| joehot | but more complicated | 13:28 |
| ParahSai1in | i thought you didn't do a lot of research into other ideas? | 13:28 |
| radivis | Nope, Karma is bound to writing stuff and getting that approved | 13:28 |
| radivis | I did some research AFTER I developed my system | 13:28 |
| ParahSai1in | an example of research that could be done just in one google search http://www.nycga.net/groups/alternative-currencies/ | 13:28 |
| radivis | Well, I did some research beforehand, but there wasn't anything that I found to be useful enough | 13:29 |
| ParahSai1in | other people's failure is the best teacher | 13:29 |
| radivis | Prestige can be allocated freely to other people. It's not based on specific actions they do technically | 13:30 |
| radivis | Well, there was a reputation economy in Second Life that failed horribly. | 13:30 |
| joehot | prestige is already a thing that we can size up ourselves. why do we need a web site to tell us who has the most prestige? | 13:30 |
| radivis | That was kinda a motivation for what I have developed, even though I knew about that Second Life reputation economy only through a single article I read. | 13:31 |
| radivis | Because prestige is too informal at the moment. | 13:31 |
| joehot | how so | 13:31 |
| ParahSai1in | "It was more like finding a solution to a mathematical problem" economics cannot be done a priori | 13:32 |
| radivis | You need to know people to know about their prestige | 13:32 |
| ParahSai1in | stop trying to do that | 13:32 |
| radivis | Why? | 13:32 |
| joehot | people exude their prestige | 13:33 |
| radivis | That's like saying "stop developing this crazy 'money' idea! Economics cannot be done a priori!" | 13:33 |
| joehot | what youre basically saying is that we should disregard people with low 'prestige rating' | 13:33 |
| ParahSai1in | radivis: im focusing on your methodology | 13:33 |
| radivis | I don't know how well my system will work. But I need to develop it to have a change to test it at all! | 13:34 |
| radivis | Does the existence of money imply that you shoud disregard people without a lot of money? | 13:35 |
| joehot | so what, you buy things with prestige points? | 13:35 |
| @kanzure | joehot: read more cory doctorow | 13:36 |
| radivis | Look: QP is more of a complementary economy. It's an additional chance to attain wealth. | 13:36 |
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| radivis | No, you cannot buy anything with prestige points directly. Prestige points give you an income in another currency. | 13:37 |
| ParahSai1in | ill be more generous and say that you should get better at selling this idea... i don't want to invest an unknown amount of time reading a pdf of unknown value on your word that it's "more awesome and complicated" | 13:37 |
| radivis | That works through a distribution fund or through the creation of Fluido, the Prestige-associated currency that I devised. | 13:37 |
| ParahSai1in | maybe be able to state the value in one or two sentences, or failing that, an elevator speech | 13:38 |
| joehot | kanzure: i dont get it | 13:38 |
| @kanzure | joehot: if you want a better background on alternative currencies and reputation economies, read more cory doctorow. | 13:38 |
| joehot | ok | 13:38 |
| radivis | Quantified Prestige mainly enables effective gratification of the creation of digital or immaterial goods, or also services. | 13:39 |
| radivis | If it gets widely adopted it can also effectively motivate companies to behave more ethically | 13:39 |
| radivis | In general it can be uses as rewarding system for positive behavior. | 13:40 |
| ParahSai1in | re sentence 1, how? | 13:40 |
| radivis | Creators of digital goods get prestige for doing so. That Prestige creates an income in a virtual currency for them. | 13:40 |
| ParahSai1in | im not seeing how it's different from karma or whuffie | 13:41 |
| chris_99 | could they just skip the prestige thing, and get normal money for what they create | 13:41 |
| radivis | Karma is not used for generating money. | 13:41 |
| radivis | chris_99: Yes, that's the old way to do it. But it's suboptimal, because it's hard to get real money directly if the others don't need to pay to get something. | 13:42 |
| chris_99 | hmm i guess so | 13:42 |
| radivis | Karma is bound to a narrow set of activities in systems that implement it | 13:42 |
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| radivis | It's not easy to give others karma just so, because of their general contribution to the world. | 13:43 |
| @kanzure | is there an actual whuffie implementation somewhere? | 13:44 |
| radivis | I think so, but it's based on Facebook comments and retweets. | 13:44 |
| radivis | That's not a very good basis for judging the contribution of an individual. | 13:45 |
| @kanzure | that's not whuffie | 13:45 |
| radivis | Well, there was a "Whuffie bank" that did something like that | 13:45 |
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| radivis | How do you think that whuffie would/should work, kanzure? | 13:46 |
| @kanzure | no thanks | 13:46 |
| ParahSai1in | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/Mutual_Banking.pdf | 13:49 |
| @kanzure | i regret everything | 13:49 |
| ParahSai1in | lol | 13:49 |
| radivis | It that about Freigeld or something like that? | 13:50 |
| ParahSai1in | i hate when political/economic theorists just say "reading is hard" and decide to mental masturbate without regard for anyone past or contemporary | 13:51 |
| ParahSai1in | "im a unique snowflake, and nobody else could have possibly had the same idea as me before" | 13:52 |
| radivis | So what? I prefer getting things done, rather to reseach the whole history of alternative economic ideas beforehand | 13:53 |
| @kanzure | ah but perhaps you are not actually getting anything done | 13:53 |
| @kanzure | using information is not a bad thing, yo | 13:53 |
| radivis | I've actually borrowed a concept from such alternative money theories. It seemed to be more useful in my system than in the more conventional ones. | 13:54 |
| radivis | Perhaps I should have simply claimed that I have done enough research. It's true enough | 13:56 |
| radivis | My system is there. It only needs to be implemented in software. | 13:57 |
| ParahSai1in | ok ill read | 13:58 |
| radivis | woah, a miracle :D | 13:58 |
| @kanzure | radivis: hardly. we read a lot in here.. | 13:59 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ | 13:59 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/ | 13:59 |
| @kanzure | etc. | 13:59 |
| radivis | Btw: My documentation is old. I should update it soon | 13:59 |
| radivis | There are a few minor mistakes in the current version | 13:59 |
| @kanzure | "No matter how smart you are, the Gods of Biology are fickle. You may end up with a shitty protein, an assay that only works when the moon is aligned with Venus or cells that only grow when you swirl counter-clockwise." | 14:26 |
| @kanzure | "As much as people like to pretend Biology is science...the sad truth is that a lot is practically voodoo incantations to the protocol devised 15 years ago by a post-doc." | 14:26 |
| @kanzure | i haven't heard about the swirling issue | 14:26 |
| brownies | that sort of thing is why i could never really get into biology or chemistry | 14:30 |
| brownies | much easier to do math, where the numbers are the same no matter how carefully you write them down | 14:30 |
| @kanzure | it's too bad that nobody has figured out how to fix the situation with protocols though | 14:31 |
| @kanzure | i mean, if we can document which protocols suck the most and why, maybe they can be fixed | 14:31 |
| @kanzure | or we could make up alternatives. | 14:31 |
| @kanzure | i suspect that people sort of give up on making a better method because they figure the other methods are "good enough" | 14:32 |
| brownies | you had mentioned this issue around documenting protocols before, i think | 14:33 |
| @kanzure | tons of times | 14:34 |
| @kanzure | documenting protocols won't necessarily make them work better, though | 14:34 |
| brownies | i forget exactly what conclusion we reached last time, but i feel like the most-used protocols are naturally going to get refined as many people execute them | 14:34 |
| radivis | I'll go to bed now. If you want to leave me a note, email (mobile@radivis.com) is the best way to do that. | 14:46 |
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| ParahSai1in | paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bm3015736 | 15:06 |
| paperbot | error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Fabrication%20of%203-Dimensional%20Cellular%20Constructs%20via%20Microstereolithography%20Using%20a%20Simple%2C%20Three-Component%2C%20Poly%28Ethylene%20Glycol%29%20Acrylate-Based%20System.pdf | 15:06 |
| ParahSai1in | paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10570-010-9405-y?LI=true | 15:12 |
| paperbot | error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Microfibrillated%20cellulose%20and%20new%20nanocomposite%20materials%3A%20a%20review.pdf | 15:12 |
| ParahSai1in | wut. " If I include a transformed plant with the marker and the plasmid used was patented, I would be violating copyright law" | 15:34 |
| @kanzure | oh weird i didn't know max hodak worked at pbworks http://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=frisco | 15:35 |
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| @kanzure | ": The new firm, called Deep Space Industries, Inc., announced today | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | : (Jan. 22) that it plans to launch a fleet of prospecting spacecraft | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | : in 2015, then begin harvesting metals and water from near-Earth | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | : asteroids within a decade or so" | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | http://www.space.com/19368-asteroid-mining-deep-space-industries.html | 15:45 |
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| eudoxia | nothing will come out of it/it's all a scam | 15:51 |
| @kanzure | elaborate | 15:51 |
| eudoxia | like Mars One | 15:51 |
| @kanzure | ah | 15:51 |
| eudoxia | it's just my default position on everything good | 15:51 |
| @kanzure | oh. well if you have insider info, please share with the rest of us. | 15:51 |
| eudoxia | i will | 15:52 |
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| jrayhawk | http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4193574 huh, small world | 16:35 |
| @kanzure | jrayhawk: welcome back to the land of the living | 16:43 |
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| phm_ | moinmoin | 17:03 |
| phm_ | I wonder if I am welcome here. | 17:14 |
| jrayhawk | NO YOU FOOL OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE YOU DONE | 17:15 |
| jrayhawk | also hello! | 17:15 |
| phm_ | hi | 17:15 |
| phm_ | kanz said he didn't like ZS people. And I came here because I saw it mentioned on the ZS list. Although I don't call myself a member. | 17:16 |
| jrayhawk | ssshh he doesn't have to know | 17:17 |
| phm_ | He sounds very strict! | 17:17 |
| phm_ | but I like this idea about inventing the future, instead of just speculating about it | 17:19 |
| phm_ | "seemingly populated by people who haven't heard of all the failed late nineties h+ religions" Which religions? Why did they fail? | 17:22 |
| @kanzure | they succeeded at doing what they intended to do (write articles) | 17:23 |
| phm_ | who is they? | 17:23 |
| @kanzure | but nobody cared. | 17:23 |
| phm_ | oh. right. just a bunch of bloggers | 17:23 |
| @kanzure | well, if you want an explicit list i suppose this will do okay http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/transhumanism.org.ml.members.zip | 17:24 |
| phm_ | If there is no physical commune then I'm not interested | 17:24 |
| @kanzure | ugh communes. don't talk to me about communes. | 17:24 |
| phm_ | Why? | 17:24 |
| phm_ | Isn't it a good idea to increase productivity? | 17:25 |
| @kanzure | that's not what communes do. | 17:25 |
| phm_ | They could do that, if done properly. | 17:25 |
| phm_ | You disagree? | 17:25 |
| @kanzure | after reviewing your previous messages from yesterday i'm not interested in talking about this with you | 17:26 |
| phm_ | May I ask why? | 17:26 |
| @kanzure | i already explained why to you | 17:26 |
| phm_ | Would you like me not to be here? | 17:26 |
| @kanzure | in the backlog. | 17:26 |
| phm_ | I am very confused. | 17:26 |
| @kanzure | this is a backlog: http://gnusha.org/logs/2013-01-22.log | 17:27 |
| brownies | what's ZS? | 17:29 |
| @kanzure | a social club interested in pr | 17:29 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: you're missing the "order of cosmic engineers" in your "silly religions" list. | 17:31 |
| brownies | sounds nice. do they have cocktail parties? | 17:33 |
| @kanzure | yes, in second life | 17:34 |
| phm_ | When you said 'your previous messages' are you referring to me specifically? | 17:34 |
| @kanzure | phm_: yes | 17:34 |
| juri_ | wow. lots of scroll today. this is going to take a while to read through. | 17:35 |
| phm_ | Did you mention me in this backlog? | 17:35 |
| @kanzure | yes i replied to your messages | 17:35 |
| phm_ | I'm confused | 17:35 |
| @kanzure | i even gave you the link | 17:35 |
| phm_ | What is it that I said or was talking about that you do not like or approve of? | 17:36 |
| @kanzure | i told you in the backlog | 17:36 |
| phm_ | communes? | 17:37 |
| phm_ | It would be easier for me if you just made things explicit. | 17:37 |
| @kanzure | i was explicit. i wrote them down and sent you messages. they are stored in that document. | 17:38 |
| @kanzure | i don't understand why this is hard for you? | 17:38 |
| phm_ | Maybe I'm stupid, or maybe you've not been very clear. I don't know. | 17:38 |
| phm_ | Have you judged that I can contribute nothing useful to this channel? | 17:39 |
| phm_ | Or is it that you would just prefer me not to discuss certain topics? | 17:40 |
| phm_ | I assume second life is a slur on openqwaq | 17:42 |
| @kanzure | you are impossible to communicate with. | 17:42 |
| phm_ | I don't understand what you mean. | 17:43 |
| @kanzure | is english your primary language? it might be helpful if you just speak your native language. | 17:43 |
| phm_ | Are we not communicating now? | 17:43 |
| phm_ | I hope I'm not upsetting you or anyone else. I'm just genuinely confused about your feelings. | 17:44 |
| @kanzure | fuck my feelings, learn to read dude | 17:44 |
| phm_ | I can read. Why would you suggest otherwise? | 17:45 |
| phm_ | You don't seem to answer some questions explicitly | 17:45 |
| phm_ | Am I unwelcome here? | 17:46 |
| @kanzure | i've already given you tons of answers to all of your questions, and you keep ignoring these answers. this is very infuriating. | 17:46 |
| phm_ | I'm not ignoring you. I just don't see them. | 17:46 |
| @kanzure | you're saying the backlog is incomplete? | 17:47 |
| phm_ | Maybe it's quicker if you just restate explicitly? | 17:47 |
| @kanzure | no | 17:47 |
| @kanzure | just click the link. | 17:47 |
| phm_ | I did. I don't see the answers to my questions. | 17:47 |
| @kanzure | you asked if you were unwelcome. the answer is in there. | 17:48 |
| @kanzure | you asked what i don't like about your ideas. the answer is in there. | 17:48 |
| @kanzure | you asked why i am uninterested in communicating with you. that answer is also in there. | 17:48 |
| phm_ | Then something very strange is going on, because I don't see those answers. Could you please restate them? | 17:50 |
| * phm_ blinks | 17:56 | |
| @kanzure | 11:35 <@kanzure> phm_: could you do me a favor and leave your wacky theories about the human brain/emotions/logic out of here? | 17:56 |
| @kanzure | 11:47 <@kanzure> phm_: global consciousness is even more ridiculous than regular consciousness, which people can't even define. | 17:57 |
| @kanzure | 13:09 < radivis> So Zero State members are welcome here, but this chanell doesn't see a point in accociating with Zero State officially? | 17:57 |
| @kanzure | 13:09 <@kanzure> yes | 17:57 |
| phm_ | Have you judged that I can contribute nothing useful to this channel? | 17:59 |
| @kanzure | what a curious question. why would you ask me that? | 17:59 |
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| phm_ | Maybe I'm insecure. | 18:00 |
| phm_ | I would like to talk to you. | 18:00 |
| kanzure | about what | 18:00 |
| phm_ | Anything. Just to get a better idea about how you think. But you said 'you are impossible to communicate with.'. I don't understand why you think so. | 18:01 |
| kanzure | because the messages that you do read you don't seem to understand, but mostly you don't even read them | 18:02 |
| phm_ | reading backlogs is always difficult. I am trying. | 18:03 |
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| kanzure | yo yashgaroth | 18:04 |
| yashgaroth | madre de chatlog | 18:04 |
| phm_ | Do you disagree that communes can help increase human productivity? | 18:05 |
| kanzure | so can drugs | 18:05 |
| phm_ | So you're anti-drugs? | 18:05 |
| kanzure | no | 18:05 |
| phm_ | so what's your point? | 18:05 |
| kanzure | that enumerating all the things that can increase human productivity isn't that interesting | 18:06 |
| phm_ | If we know they can make us more productive. And your aim is to DO stuff. Isn't it worth thinking about, then we can do more stuff? | 18:06 |
| phm_ | not just thinking about. Doing. | 18:07 |
| kanzure | so far there has been no machinist commune to my knowledge. OSE might count i guess. | 18:07 |
| phm_ | So you think it must always fail? | 18:07 |
| kanzure | what must fail? | 18:07 |
| phm_ | a commune. | 18:07 |
| kanzure | how does anything i just said talk about failure?? | 18:08 |
| kanzure | wtf :( | 18:08 |
| phm_ | ): | 18:08 |
| phm_ | You should try to guess what I'm thinking. | 18:08 |
| phm_ | guess what I want to know. I think you have enough information to make good guesses. | 18:08 |
| phm_ | I'm trying to make it clear | 18:09 |
| phm_ | You want to get stuff done, right? | 18:09 |
| phm_ | If a commune can make people more efficient. Why not start one? | 18:09 |
| phm_ | Do you think it's doomed to fail? | 18:10 |
| phm_ | Or do you think it won't actually increase productivity? | 18:10 |
| phm_ | Or is the project just too big , so you deem it unrealistic and not worth discussing? | 18:11 |
| kanzure | what project | 18:11 |
| phm_ | Setting up a commune | 18:11 |
| phm_ | for transhumans, or whatever | 18:12 |
| phm_ | To further your aims. Which seems to be getting transhumany stuff done. | 18:14 |
| kanzure | efficiency isn't the reason that people make communes. | 18:14 |
| phm_ | It could be. | 18:14 |
| kanzure | what is your measurement of efficiency? | 18:15 |
| kanzure | lines of code? | 18:15 |
| phm_ | If you think it would be more efficient, and you set up a commune for that reason, then efficiency is the reason you made a commune | 18:15 |
| phm_ | You can come up with your own metrics | 18:15 |
| phm_ | LoC is not a good one. | 18:16 |
| kanzure | so what you're saying is that you don't actually have evidence that it is more efficient? | 18:16 |
| phm_ | not hard evidence. | 18:16 |
| kanzure | so far it sounds like you would be better served by living in a hackerspace. | 18:16 |
| phm_ | but I think I could convince you. | 18:16 |
| kanzure | i am particularly immune to arguments for the creation of communes because of a cult that indoctrinated me many years ago | 18:17 |
| phm_ | I see. What happened? | 18:17 |
| kanzure | nothing | 18:17 |
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| phm_ | Why did you decide to live with them? | 18:18 |
| kanzure | i didn't | 18:18 |
| phm_ | How did they indoctrinate you? | 18:18 |
| kanzure | it's really boring | 18:18 |
| phm_ | It sounds interesting. | 18:19 |
| phm_ | You seem smart. How did you fall for their tricks? | 18:19 |
| kanzure | they weren't tricks. | 18:19 |
| phm_ | So why did you listen to them? | 18:20 |
| phm_ | And why did you change your mind? | 18:20 |
| kanzure | i didn't change my mind. | 18:20 |
| kanzure | you are seriously having a hard time reading dude | 18:20 |
| phm_ | So you're still indoctrinated? | 18:20 |
| kanzure | indoctrination usually means introduced | 18:21 |
| kanzure | i suppose in this context it means something more sinister | 18:21 |
| phm_ | So you were only introduced to them? | 18:21 |
| jrayhawk | is 'real dumb' sinister enough | 18:21 |
| kanzure | wtf i didn't say that | 18:21 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: yes maybe | 18:22 |
| phm_ | you said you were indoctrinated | 18:22 |
| jrayhawk | seems appropriate, then | 18:22 |
| phm_ | and then you said indoctrinated means introduced | 18:22 |
| kanzure | "only introduced to them" can mean lots of other things | 18:22 |
| kanzure | this is going in circles | 18:23 |
| phm_ | So be more explicit! How am I supposed to read you when you're so ambiguous? | 18:23 |
| kanzure | "only introduced" adds an additional word | 18:23 |
| phm_ | I understand the problem | 18:23 |
| kanzure | adding words? | 18:23 |
| kanzure | not reading? | 18:23 |
| phm_ | I'm working to fix it. | 18:24 |
| phm_ | It may take some time | 18:24 |
| kanzure | anyway, there are also other commune initiatives that have gone nowhere like patri's stuff from seasteading institute | 18:24 |
| kanzure | which he has abandoned | 18:24 |
| phm_ | So I'm guessing you don't feel comfortable about talking to me about this cult. | 18:24 |
| phm_ | So you're looking at failed projects and thinking it's always going to fail? | 18:25 |
| kanzure | no | 18:25 |
| kanzure | you are a liar | 18:25 |
| phm_ | What? | 18:25 |
| kanzure | where did i say that. wtf. | 18:25 |
| phm_ | I asked a question! | 18:25 |
| phm_ | Please don't be angry with me. It upsets me. | 18:25 |
| kanzure | i don't think i said i was angry at you. what the hell man. you just keep doing this. | 18:26 |
| phm_ | You're not used to the way I communicate. | 18:26 |
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| phm_ | Doing what? | 18:26 |
| kanzure | misreading. | 18:26 |
| phm_ | I'm just curious. I just asked a question. | 18:27 |
| jrayhawk | the "find most interesting inference"->"ask about most interesting inference" cycle you have should dynamically adapt to the confidence of the involved priors | 18:27 |
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| phm_ | You seem very emotional. | 18:27 |
| kanzure | because he talks about priors? | 18:28 |
| kanzure | or for some other reason? | 18:28 |
| phm_ | heh | 18:28 |
| jrayhawk | Specifically, when your priors are repeatedly wrong, you should grealy lower the confidence of your priors and update the confidence of your inferences | 18:28 |
| jrayhawk | and, presumably, infer much shorter distances. | 18:28 |
| jrayhawk | s/grealy/greatly | 18:28 |
| phm_ | This is hard work! | 18:28 |
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| phm_ | You called me a liar. What do you think I lied about? | 18:29 |
| kanzure | you lied that it was a reasonable inference to make. | 18:29 |
| jrayhawk | I imagine you're better calibrated for more gracious or dumber conversational partners, who are either more willing to interpret and guide your inferational process, or don't think very fast to begin with. | 18:29 |
| kanzure | the suggestion was highly ridiculous | 18:29 |
| jrayhawk | Kanzure is not gracious. | 18:30 |
| kanzure | hahah | 18:30 |
| phm_ | I've already understood that. I am working to fix the problem. | 18:30 |
| phm_ | which suggestion? | 18:31 |
| kanzure | the suggestion that "you're looking at failed projects and thinking it's always going to fail" | 18:31 |
| phm_ | can you please try to be very explicit? It will save me time. | 18:31 |
| phm_ | It wasn't a suggestion. It was a question. | 18:31 |
| phm_ | didn't it have a question mark at the end? It should have done | 18:32 |
| phm_ | it did. | 18:32 |
| phm_ | you took away my question mark | 18:32 |
| phm_ | no wonder you're confused | 18:32 |
| kanzure | i was quoting the suggestion of the message | 18:32 |
| phm_ | There was no suggestion. It was a question. | 18:32 |
| kanzure | this is entering the realm of extreme pedantry, but a question can easily contain a suggestion or the result of an inference. | 18:33 |
| phm_ | you're making assumptions about what I'm thinking. Don't. Just answer the questions, please. | 18:33 |
| phm_ | so the answer was 'no' | 18:34 |
| phm_ | next question. | 18:34 |
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| phm_ | Why do you think other projects failed? | 18:34 |
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| phm_ | I should point out that you're free to not answer, but I assume that goes without saying. | 18:35 |
| kanzure | what failure? i didn't ever mention failure. that's what i was trying to point out. | 18:35 |
| kanzure | so much for your reliance on the explicit | 18:35 |
| phm_ | "anyway, there are also other commune initiatives that have gone nowhere like patri's stuff from seasteading institute" | 18:36 |
| phm_ | So did they intend to go nowhere? | 18:36 |
| phm_ | if not, then they have failed. right? | 18:36 |
| phm_ | So you mentioned a failure. | 18:36 |
| kanzure | the people failed, yes | 18:36 |
| kanzure | they failed to continue, or something | 18:36 |
| phm_ | So why do you think they failed? | 18:37 |
| kanzure | what? | 18:37 |
| kanzure | the communes didn't even happen. how could they fail. | 18:37 |
| phm_ | did they intend not to continue? | 18:37 |
| phm_ | if you intend to set up a commune, and you don't, then you failed. | 18:38 |
| kanzure | ok but you were asking about communes, not people starting a commune | 18:38 |
| phm_ | both are relevant | 18:38 |
| phm_ | So do you think such a commune is an impossible dream? | 18:39 |
| phm_ | (one that increases productivity) | 18:39 |
| phm_ | and furthers transhuman goals. | 18:40 |
| phm_ | does kanzure think "interpret and guide your inferational process" is a bad thing? Or is he just incapable? | 18:43 |
| phm_ | Why is he not gracious? | 18:44 |
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| phm_ | Does he think it's a bad thing? | 18:45 |
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| phm_ | oh! I understand why I didn't read your line about 'wacky ideas'. I was in bed. I should have quit properly. | 18:55 |
| phm_ | but still. I had timed out. So Why were you trying to talk to me? Are people here expected to read the backlog? | 18:56 |
| kanzure | skip the backlog at your own peril | 18:57 |
| kanzure | no, but you asked and i told you that i6 | 18:57 |
| kanzure | oops | 18:58 |
| kanzure | irc user error. | 18:58 |
| phm_ | You made it sound as if you said that when I was actually listening. | 18:58 |
| phm_ | That's why I was confused | 18:59 |
| phm_ | 'friends don't let you go to grad school or worse.' What is better than Grad school? If we had a commune..... | 19:01 |
| phm_ | "amon already replied to my comments on zero state. he shat all over me." This is fascinating. You'd think rational people would be able to avoid petty emotional squabbles, but no. | 19:05 |
| phm_ | So we have a long way to go. | 19:06 |
| phm_ | Not that I shouldn't have expected it | 19:06 |
| kanzure | it's not an emotional squabble. that's a complete misrepresentation of the situation. | 19:06 |
| phm_ | I'm pretty confident that it is. | 19:07 |
| kanzure | did you read the exchange? | 19:07 |
| phm_ | nope. | 19:07 |
| kanzure | so your confidence is based on...? | 19:07 |
| phm_ | magic. | 19:07 |
| kanzure | k | 19:07 |
| phm_ | I will investigate further. | 19:08 |
| phm_ | I hope I'm wrong. | 19:08 |
| phm_ | magic is notoriously unreliable | 19:08 |
| phm_ | 'shat all over me' is a big clue that emotions are involved | 19:11 |
| kanzure | wrong. | 19:11 |
| phm_ | I don't know any rationalists that would use that kind of language. | 19:12 |
| kanzure | maybe your rationalists suck | 19:12 |
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| phm_ | yes, but at least they're rational. That's the one think you can count on. | 19:12 |
| phm_ | thing | 19:12 |
| phm_ | Do you have any formal training in critical thinking? | 19:14 |
| phm_ | What do you do with your life? Biology? | 19:14 |
| phm_ | he started claiming wild things like "oh obviously kanzure you must hate everyone" | 19:18 |
| phm_ | I've never spoken to Amon, but I can understand why he might have said that! | 19:18 |
| phm_ | Amon's take on censorship did worry me | 19:20 |
| phm_ | Oh dear. Now it's becoming clear: "the hatred helps protect this channel from terrible things" | 19:21 |
| phm_ | 'you suck, no, you suck, go team H+, boooo, go team ZS, you suck! we we we' What a fucking mess. I suppose I'm trolling now. I'm working on a constructive fix, though. | 19:26 |
| kanzure | you still misunderstand the situation | 19:26 |
| phm_ | enlighten me | 19:27 |
| kanzure | nobody said "go team h+" | 19:27 |
| kanzure | that's the first step to your enlightenment | 19:27 |
| phm_ | not explicitly | 19:27 |
| phm_ | but I wouldn't be surprised if they did | 19:27 |
| joehot | <phm_> What do you do with your life? Biology? | 19:27 |
| kanzure | i would. everyone in here thinks h+ sucks. | 19:27 |
| phm_ | so why is hplus in the name? | 19:28 |
| kanzure | because hplus was a thing before wta renamed itself to humanityplus (hplus) | 19:28 |
| kanzure | hplusroadmap existed long before wta rebranded itself. | 19:28 |
| phm_ | so what do you call the members of this chan? | 19:28 |
| jrayhawk | because clearly if we centralize ourselves in more communities, TECHNOLOGY HAPPENS | 19:28 |
| jrayhawk | right guys | 19:28 |
| jrayhawk | right | 19:29 |
| phm_ | when you say 'we'. Who is we? | 19:29 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: haha | 19:29 |
| phm_ | Do you have a name? | 19:29 |
| jrayhawk | ##hplusroadmap | 19:29 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: wait, you might be criticising me or the others too. it's hard to tell. | 19:29 |
| phm_ | humans love being in gangs/tribes | 19:30 |
| kanzure | i don't | 19:30 |
| kanzure | you shouldn't make generic claims like that because they don't tend to be directly useful | 19:31 |
| jrayhawk | i am mostly making fun of the ZS and H+ mentality of community building and advocacy | 19:31 |
| phm_ | I'm going somewhere with it. | 19:31 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: ah okay. | 19:31 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: 'cause your message could have been interpreted to mean "being callous about new random communities that are trying the same (though failed) strategy is not a good way to make technology happen", but i see your comment was more for phm_'s benefit. | 19:32 |
| jrayhawk | ZS and H+ are valuable honeypots, at least | 19:32 |
| kanzure | heh | 19:32 |
| kanzure | not sure about that either. surely you could make a better one. | 19:33 |
| phm_ | what do you mean by honeypot? | 19:33 |
| kanzure | i mean, i guess it's hard to tell from the outside | 19:33 |
| kanzure | which is a very important characteristic | 19:33 |
| jrayhawk | yeah, apparently better containment is necessary | 19:33 |
| jrayhawk | what was the other piny thing you wanted me to do | 19:34 |
| kanzure | git-daemon is no longer installed | 19:34 |
| jrayhawk | oh, right | 19:34 |
| kanzure | and installing it seems to be fraught with failure | 19:34 |
| kanzure | i broke it, i admit it. it was something about installing daemon-whatever-run | 19:34 |
| kanzure | daemon-tools-run | 19:34 |
| kanzure | i should have sent you the details by email, i wasn't thinking | 19:36 |
| jrayhawk | eh, it's reasonably obvious | 19:37 |
| kanzure | there was another issue with the newuser.cgi script somewhere | 19:37 |
| kanzure | something about it not running over http | 19:37 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, fixed that. | 19:37 |
| kanzure | hooray | 19:37 |
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| kanzure | what was the problem? | 19:39 |
| jrayhawk | I split the access permissions for the httpd and cgis and forgot to make the piny email verification HMAC key readable by the new cgi group. | 19:45 |
| kanzure | makes sense to me | 19:50 |
| kanzure | obviously this calls for strict unit testing in a chroot for new versions (:cough:) | 19:50 |
| phm_ | Do you have a list or any documents discussing the general agenda/philosophy of ##hplusroadmap (rather than just specifics of biohacking) | 19:50 |
| kanzure | yes, but you should be informed that we have a strict no-philosophy ban. however, if you feel that you can make a contribution that i won't ban you for, you are free to make an attempt. | 19:51 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration | 19:51 |
| phm_ | you ban no-philosophy? Is that what you intended to say? | 19:51 |
| kanzure | i meant to say "a strict no-philosophy rule" | 19:52 |
| jrayhawk | he bans the sort of navel-gazing ineffectual prognostication that the term "transhuman" seems to attract | 19:52 |
| kanzure | also other basic things like consciousness | 19:53 |
| jrayhawk | ugh | 19:53 |
| phm_ | I don't approve of censorship, but I understand why you do it | 19:53 |
| jrayhawk | hooray | 19:53 |
| phm_ | The wiki is still in early stages? | 19:58 |
| phm_ | I'm asking is that true. not suggesting it, btw. | 19:58 |
| phm_ | May you prefer me to say 'is the wiki still in early stages' ? | 19:58 |
| kanzure | what defines a stage | 19:58 |
| phm_ | can't you guess what I want to know and give me the correct information? | 19:59 |
| phm_ | That would be nice, if possible. | 19:59 |
| kanzure | no, i have no fucking clue what you want | 20:00 |
| kanzure | the fuck is a stage? | 20:00 |
| rigel | just installed a ssd | 20:00 |
| phm_ | heh. I was just about to say: I don't think it's difficult to do | 20:00 |
| kanzure | nice | 20:00 |
| rigel | as primary hd on the laptop | 20:00 |
| kanzure | welcome to the future | 20:00 |
| rigel | it's pretty fast so far | 20:00 |
| phm_ | kanz seems to lack empathy. | 20:00 |
| rigel | decided to nuke my old install of mint and upgrade too | 20:00 |
| phm_ | Are you autistic? | 20:00 |
| rigel | itwas getting pretty crufty | 20:01 |
| jrayhawk | the wiki is a thing people put information in. sometimes people organize that information. | 20:01 |
| phm_ | I know what a wiki is. | 20:01 |
| phm_ | I'm asking about the information | 20:01 |
| jrayhawk | okay, so what is it you want to know about the wiki | 20:01 |
| phm_ | things like: how many articles, how many editors, might be useful | 20:01 |
| kanzure | find . | wc -l | 20:02 |
| phm_ | when did it start. you know. facts | 20:02 |
| jrayhawk | http://diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/log/ apparently, mostly one editor | 20:02 |
| kanzure | not quite | 20:02 |
| phm_ | so that suggests to me an early stage. | 20:02 |
| kanzure | there are also a few others that have contributed by way of my merge with openwetware | 20:02 |
| phm_ | compare to wikipedia for a late stage. | 20:02 |
| phm_ | Do I need to define stage? | 20:03 |
| jrayhawk | is it like cancer | 20:03 |
| jrayhawk | because it sounds like cancer | 20:03 |
| kanzure | haha | 20:03 |
| phm_ | no. | 20:04 |
| jrayhawk | gosh bryan why don't you do more community building and advocacy around that wiki | 20:04 |
| phm_ | So how long has the wiki been running? | 20:04 |
| jrayhawk | surely if you had a hundred extra people everything would be better! | 20:04 |
| jrayhawk | http://diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/log/?ofs=800 | 20:05 |
| kanzure | first commit was Date: Sat Apr 4 19:29:13 2009 +0000 | 20:05 |
| kanzure | afb8aff75495492066c8a134ec9128a75a314815 | 20:05 |
| kanzure | 25 unique contributors | 20:05 |
| kanzure | well.. sort of unique. | 20:06 |
| jrayhawk | you might be double-counting git+web, yeah | 20:06 |
| kanzure | Author: jrayhawk+gnusha@omgwallhack.org <jrayhawk+gnusha@omgwallhack.org> | 20:06 |
| kanzure | Author: jrayhawk+gnusha@omgwallhack.org <jrayhawk@gnusha.svcs.cs.pdx.edu> | 20:06 |
| kanzure | Author: jrayhawk <jrayhawk@web> | 20:06 |
| kanzure | Author: Joe Rayhawk <jrayhawk@farfotzle.omgwallhack.org> | 20:06 |
| kanzure | you are the worst offender | 20:06 |
| phm_ | not very impressive. Are most of the ~70 people here inactive? | 20:06 |
| kanzure | no. they are just scared of you. | 20:06 |
| phm_ | Why aren't you? | 20:06 |
| kanzure | i am terrified | 20:06 |
| phm_ | SO why aren't you hiding? | 20:07 |
| jrayhawk | all his adrenaline goes straight to his keyboarding | 20:07 |
| rigel | this is interesting, why is everyone taking the piss | 20:07 |
| kanzure | because it's my job to fix these sorts of problems | 20:07 |
| jrayhawk | everything he's said to you has been a blind 180wpm panic | 20:07 |
| kanzure | yep | 20:07 |
| phm_ | Are you calling me a problem? | 20:07 |
| kanzure | evidently your humor detector is broken | 20:08 |
| phm_ | I always take people literally online | 20:08 |
| kanzure | well, i suppose it's true that it's a 180wpm panic anyway | 20:09 |
| phm_ | missing humor is much more acceptable than thinking something is humor when it isn't | 20:09 |
| phm_ | I am happy. | 20:11 |
| brownies | this is odd. | 20:15 |
| rigel | holy cats is this shit fast | 20:23 |
| rigel | rebooting takes like 20 seconds, and the bios is the slowest part | 20:24 |
| kanzure | i was promised a 3 second boot time | 20:24 |
| kanzure | and i haven't gotten it yet | 20:24 |
| phm_ | Do you need it? I just suspend to RAM. | 20:45 |
| kanzure | yes, i reboot at least once a year | 20:46 |
| phm_ | So 3 second boot is really gonna save you a lot of time. | 20:46 |
| phm_ | Do you program? | 20:47 |
| phm_ | What is your field? | 20:47 |
| kanzure | yes i write code when i feel like it https://github.com/kanzure | 20:47 |
| kanzure | my field is doing whatever the hell i want | 20:47 |
| phm_ | Which languages do you like? | 20:47 |
| kanzure | why | 20:47 |
| phm_ | curious. | 20:47 |
| phm_ | I have an agenda | 20:48 |
| phm_ | I want to know if you can help me | 20:48 |
| kanzure | state your problem | 20:48 |
| phm_ | abstract: being more happy. Specifically today: I want to find out if Pier is 'over-engineered' | 20:50 |
| kanzure | you can take drugs to bliss out, you know | 20:50 |
| kanzure | also deep brain stimulation works | 20:50 |
| phm_ | That is fake happiness (drugs) | 20:50 |
| kanzure | nope | 20:51 |
| kanzure | there's nothing fake about it | 20:51 |
| kanzure | it's real, genuine happiness in your brain | 20:51 |
| phm_ | funny. I got into an argument with my psychologist about this. | 20:51 |
| kanzure | psychologists are jerks | 20:51 |
| phm_ | I agree. | 20:51 |
| phm_ | I think I managed to convince him that he was wrong. | 20:51 |
| phm_ | Why are you not gracious? | 20:52 |
| phm_ | What is your plan for today? i.e. what are you working on? | 20:52 |
| phm_ | Which languages do you like? If you don't answer questions should I assume it's because you don't want to, or because you've forgotten? | 20:54 |
| phm_ | I don't want to be rude by keep asking you questions that you don't feel comfortable answering. | 20:54 |
| jrayhawk | runit's sorta working again; You may want to add a sudo -u bryan shim to translation-server. | 20:57 |
| kanzure | translation-server.git ? | 20:57 |
| kanzure | oh you mean the running instance? | 20:58 |
| kanzure | btw basically my goal was to have translators.git have a post-commit hook that recompiles+reboots translation-server | 20:58 |
| kanzure | still not sure about the best way to do that | 20:58 |
| kanzure | phm_: why can't you bug jrayhawk about those things, why me | 20:58 |
| phm_ | it looks like you like python? Do you know smalltalk or lisp or haskell? | 20:58 |
| kanzure | yes. | 20:59 |
| kanzure | if i don't answer your questions, you should assume it's because they are terrible questions. | 20:59 |
| phm_ | Why do you feel that way? | 20:59 |
| kanzure | you're making those really bad inferences again dude | 21:00 |
| jrayhawk | hmm. i guess runit's still a little broken | 21:00 |
| phm_ | What do you think I inferred? | 21:00 |
| jrayhawk | Okay, that's better. I mean you should shim /etc/service/translation-server/run | 21:01 |
| kanzure | how should i run that with runit? | 21:02 |
| kanzure | or.. what? can you explain my infrastructure to me? haha | 21:02 |
| jrayhawk | man sv | 21:02 |
| kanzure | ok. so sv is still the way to run these things. | 21:03 |
| phm_ | For the record: I didn't infer anything. Not that I'm aware of. | 21:03 |
| kanzure | so should i drop in a sv statement or a ./etc/service/translation-server/run statement into the post-receive hook? | 21:03 |
| kanzure | hm okay. sv. | 21:04 |
| jrayhawk | /etc/service/translation-server/run is run as root at the moment, which is naturally a little troublesome for the relative paths in that file, and would presumably shit all over your build directory. | 21:04 |
| kanzure | oh right | 21:04 |
| kanzure | yes this is true | 21:04 |
| jrayhawk | sudo -u bryan -i or -H would set HOME | 21:05 |
| kanzure | and does sv require sudo? | 21:05 |
| jrayhawk | Probably. | 21:05 |
| jrayhawk | You can add that to /etc/sudoers.d | 21:05 |
| kanzure | so the post-receive hook would fail for everyone who is not me :( | 21:05 |
| jrayhawk | sudo cat /etc/sudoers.d/pinyadmin for examples | 21:05 |
| kanzure | oh neat | 21:06 |
| kanzure | okay then | 21:06 |
| kanzure | how did you fix the git daemon things and runit? | 21:07 |
| jrayhawk | I commented out the bit of the postinstall script that was thought you had a real init process. | 21:07 |
| jrayhawk | s/ was// | 21:08 |
| kanzure | i had no init anything? | 21:08 |
| jrayhawk | init is a cunning lie | 21:08 |
| kanzure | rebooting would have meant death? | 21:08 |
| jrayhawk | Nah, rebooting's safe. Postinst would still have failed, though. | 21:09 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: well, i don't want to give everyone access to sv. i suppose i should write a script that wraps sv? | 21:14 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah. | 21:16 |
| kanzure | and i should put this in /home/bryan/code/paperbot/translation-server/something or in the git folder or what's the morally right thing to do? | 21:17 |
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| -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 21:33 | |
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| Guest40461 | i heard this is the channel to join if i want to start a commune | 21:52 |
| Guest40461 | is there an FAQ? | 21:52 |
| kanzure | ha ha | 21:52 |
| Guest40461 | :) | 21:52 |
| kanzure | i guess tyler. | 21:52 |
| Guest40461 | woah jrayhawk and bkero are both in here. i guess portland is a hip diybio scene | 21:54 |
| kanzure | there's also nmz787, lichen, mokbor, bioguy, and a few others in portland. | 21:54 |
| Guest40461 | i don't know those guys | 21:54 |
| kanzure | are you in portland? | 21:54 |
| jrayhawk | Sometimes I go bouldering with nmz787 | 21:54 |
| Guest40461 | yep :) | 21:54 |
| Guest40461 | i work out of PIE | 21:55 |
| kanzure | sounds delicious | 21:55 |
| Guest40461 | http://portlandwiki.org/Portland_Incubator_Experiment | 21:55 |
| kanzure | did they fund you? | 21:56 |
| Guest40461 | they gave a small amount to our last round | 21:56 |
| Guest40461 | our biggest investor is mark cuban | 21:56 |
| kanzure | what are you doing? | 21:56 |
| kanzure | yes mark is rather huge | 21:56 |
| Guest40461 | http://blogs.wsj.com/venturecapital/2012/10/05/how-a-little-bird-told-mark-cuban-where-to-invest-his-money/ | 21:57 |
| kanzure | "Since its incorporation in 2011, and private beta launch a few months ago, Little Bird amassed 24 paying clients, and four full-time employees in Portland, Ore., including co-founders Marshall Kirkpatrick, Mikalina Kirkpatrick and Tyler Gillies." | 21:57 |
| nmz787 | Guest40461: hi | 21:58 |
| yashgaroth | the bird is his chin | 21:58 |
| Guest40461 | lol | 21:58 |
| kanzure | oh you just do twitter stats | 21:58 |
| Guest40461 | nmz787: hihi | 21:58 |
| Guest40461 | kanzure: its klout but we don't suck | 21:58 |
| kanzure | well okay. twitterlytics are needed by someone i suppose. | 21:58 |
| kanzure | yes i'm familiar with klout sadly | 21:58 |
| Guest40461 | kanzure: yeah its mostly PR and marketing people | 21:58 |
| Guest40461 | not related to my diybio/transhumanist interests | 21:59 |
| kanzure | right | 21:59 |
| lichen | hello nick highlight | 21:59 |
| kanzure | well, mark funded a company that is a competitor of mine | 21:59 |
| Guest40461 | kanzure: :( | 21:59 |
| kanzure | not a bad thing! | 21:59 |
| nmz787 | Guest40461: so what's your field? | 21:59 |
| kanzure | competitors getting money is a very good thing | 21:59 |
| Guest40461 | nmz787: 40 people on linkedin say im good at ruby, so i'll go with ruby programmer :) | 21:59 |
| nmz787 | ahh | 22:00 |
| kanzure | how long did it take you to close your round? | 22:00 |
| nmz787 | cool | 22:00 |
| Guest40461 | a month or two maybe | 22:00 |
| kanzure | not bad | 22:00 |
| kanzure | well, actually, i guess that depends on traction | 22:00 |
| Guest40461 | we were fishing for awhile before mark though | 22:01 |
| Guest40461 | 6months prolly | 22:01 |
| Guest40461 | maybe even more | 22:01 |
| Guest40461 | but technically that was a different round | 22:01 |
| nmz787 | Guest40461: do you know if PIE is accepting applications for grants now? | 22:01 |
| kanzure | are you the one doing the programming for the other two? | 22:01 |
| kanzure | nmz787: $18k isn't that much | 22:01 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: but I'm here anyway | 22:02 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: and have an idea worth funding | 22:02 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: it's almost a year of PhD salary! | 22:02 |
| kanzure | uh dude i could get you more than $18k | 22:02 |
| kanzure | if it's for the dna synthesis project | 22:02 |
| Guest40461 | nmz787: i think they're accepting applications | 22:03 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: yeah? | 22:03 |
| Guest40461 | pie is good for the network and contacts | 22:03 |
| Guest40461 | not so much the money | 22:03 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: I thought we tried that earlier last year | 22:03 |
| kanzure | nmz787: singularityu was an interesting thing to attempt, itw asn't really for the money | 22:03 |
| Guest40461 | kanzure: i used to be the only programmer we are a team of around 8 now, i have 3 other devs | 22:03 |
| kanzure | neat. | 22:04 |
| nmz787 | the PIE website says there is skiing year round here | 22:04 |
| kanzure | well congrats on raising | 22:04 |
| Guest40461 | thnx | 22:04 |
| kanzure | now the hard part: getting more than 24 customers. | 22:05 |
| kanzure | also, do you know anyone who does split testing of DMs to twitter followers? | 22:06 |
| Guest40461 | not sure what that means | 22:08 |
| kanzure | do you know what split testing is? | 22:09 |
| Guest40461 | nope | 22:09 |
| Guest40461 | like ab testing? | 22:09 |
| kanzure | it's exactly ab testing | 22:09 |
| Guest40461 | ah | 22:09 |
| kanzure | doesn't require a slash when typing it out though | 22:09 |
| Guest40461 | how would you split test dm and followers? they seem like pretty disparate concepts | 22:10 |
| kanzure | if you send out a public tweet, everyone gets the same message | 22:10 |
| kanzure | if you do it by private message, you could figure out which messages get the most clicks so that you know which message you should send out in public | 22:11 |
| kanzure | the wording matters a great deal to get clicks | 22:11 |
| Guest40461 | oooh | 22:11 |
| Guest40461 | gotcha | 22:11 |
| kanzure | if you have 10M followers you might as well test two messages on 10,000 users each, or something | 22:11 |
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| Guest40461 | don't know anyone that does that | 22:12 |
| Guest40461 | good concept though | 22:12 |
| kanzure | what is bitly doing ever since t.co happened? | 22:12 |
| kanzure | someone should start a "lance armstrong should be appreciated for doping, not hated" fan club | 22:14 |
| Guest40461 | kanzure: but its not fair | 22:15 |
| Guest40461 | :) | 22:15 |
| kanzure | they were all doping. how is that not fair? | 22:15 |
| Guest40461 | im being facetious | 22:15 |
| kanzure | also, it's possible you were saying a fan club for lance is not fair | 22:15 |
| Guest40461 | heh | 22:15 |
| Guest40461 | its possible to say i am the man on the moon | 22:16 |
| kanzure | are you? | 22:16 |
| Guest40461 | yes | 22:16 |
| jrayhawk | portland has relocated to the moon | 22:31 |
| jrayhawk | we can finally justify complaining about the weather more than seattle | 22:31 |
| Guest40461 | the first moon colony is prolly gonna be called portlandia | 22:31 |
| jrayhawk | "it's not a transhumanist commune, it's a transhumanist co-op" | 22:32 |
| Guest40461 | LOLOL | 22:32 |
| Guest40461 | its funny because its true | 22:32 |
| kanzure | hah | 22:32 |
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| kanzure | uh oh | 22:33 |
| u-metacognition | Hey I know you! | 22:34 |
| Guest40461 | relevant: http://beermapping.com/maps/reviews/images/locations/img_0132.jpg | 22:34 |
| kanzure | u-metacognition: do you? | 22:38 |
| Guest40461 | u-metacognition: can you give the time and date that you know him from and what you talked about? | 22:39 |
| Guest40461 | :) | 22:40 |
| kanzure | heh | 22:40 |
| u-metacognition | Yea you're that guy from that radio show | 22:40 |
| u-metacognition | what was it? | 22:40 |
| u-metacognition | the future and you? | 22:40 |
| kanzure | yes | 22:41 |
| u-metacognition | Oh I'm good | 22:41 |
| * Guest40461 googles | 22:42 | |
| Guest40461 | http://thefutureandyou.libsyn.com/webpage/2011/03 | 22:42 |
| kanzure | Guest40461: link is in http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/resume.pdf | 22:42 |
| kanzure | oh hell | 22:42 |
| kanzure | yes | 22:42 |
| kanzure | http://www.thefutureandyou.libsyn.com/the-future-and-you-march-16-2011 | 22:42 |
| kanzure | http://www.thefutureandyou.libsyn.com/the-future-and-you-march-23-2011 | 22:42 |
| Guest40461 | heh "/webpage" | 22:43 |
| kanzure | they wanted to make sure you knew you were on the interwebs i guess | 22:43 |
| Guest40461 | i get lost sometimes | 22:43 |
| kanzure | it happens, don't sweat it | 22:43 |
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| barriers | kanzure: those nanorex gifs are enjoyable | 23:15 |
| kanzure | just be cautious that they are misrepresentations | 23:15 |
| barriers | howso? | 23:15 |
| kanzure | "If molecular machines actually moved as shown in the animations, they wouldn't work. Don't blame the simulation or the design, though. The problem is that the standard way to render video frames creates a stroboscopic illusion of jerky motion." | 23:17 |
| kanzure | "Atoms typically vibrate hundreds of times per frame, but standard frames capture the position of each atom at a single instant, as if seen by the flash of a stroboscope. This creates the illusion that the atoms all vibrate at the frame rate, which is far too close to the frequency of the machine's moving parts." | 23:17 |
| kanzure | "This gives the false impression that the machine parts are moving at nearly thermal speed, comparable to the speed of sound. At that speed, even if the machine worked, friction would be intolerable." | 23:17 |
| barriers | just a heads up | 23:17 |
| barriers | th gallery isn;t working on the main site | 23:17 |
| kanzure | that site is completely broken at this point | 23:18 |
| barriers | um, so, they'd move slower or faster? | 23:18 |
| kanzure | faster. | 23:19 |
| barriers | how would friction be greater if they moved slower? | 23:20 |
| kanzure | i wonder who wrote that originally. it would be nice to get them to elaborate. | 23:20 |
| kanzure | that might have been mark sims | 23:21 |
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| kanzure | Guest40461: you upgraded for CVE-2013-0156, right? | 23:24 |
| Guest40461 | kanzure: i don't know what that is | 23:24 |
| * Guest40461 read backlog | 23:25 | |
| Guest40461 | reads* | 23:25 |
| kanzure | rails remote execution vulnerability from earlier this month | 23:25 |
| Guest40461 | kanzure: i don't use rails | 23:25 |
| kanzure | ah. sinatra? | 23:25 |
| Guest40461 | yep | 23:25 |
| kanzure | well played. | 23:25 |
| kanzure | but multi_xml was also vurnerable | 23:25 |
| kanzure | so anything using httparty, really | 23:26 |
| kanzure | like mailchimp or twilio | 23:26 |
| Guest40461 | we have many small services that talk to each other via a queue server | 23:26 |
| Guest40461 | we don't use httparty | 23:26 |
| Guest40461 | i'll check our dep list for multi_xml though thnx | 23:26 |
| kanzure | resque? | 23:26 |
| Guest40461 | kanzure: we were using resque but we ended up needing something more custom | 23:27 |
| kanzure | i like celery a lot in pythonland | 23:27 |
| Guest40461 | i've heard good things | 23:28 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Jan 23 00:00:38 2013 | ||
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