| --- Log opened Fri Feb 01 00:00:06 2013 | ||
| --- Day changed Fri Feb 01 2013 | ||
| comet | 100% real juice | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
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| @kanzure | "In 1967, Dr. Kolff left Cleveland Clinic to start the Division of Artificial Organs at the University of Utah and pursue his work on the artificial heart: | 00:29 |
| @kanzure | In 1973, a calf named Tony survived for 30 days on an early Kolff heart." | 00:29 |
| @kanzure | "In 1981, a calf named Alfred Lord Tennyson lived for 268 days on the Jarvik 5." | 00:29 |
| @kanzure | "In 1981, Dr. William DeVries submitted a request to the FDA to implant the Jarvik 7 into a human being. On December 2, 1982, Dr. Kolff implanted the Jarvik 7 artificial heart into Barney Clark, a dentist from Seattle who was suffering from severe congestive heart failure." | 00:30 |
| @kanzure | "While Clark lived for 112 days tethered to an external pneumatic compressor, a device weighing some 400 pounds (180 kg), during that time he suffered prolonged periods of confusion and a number of instances of bleeding, and asked several times to be allowed to die.[22]" | 00:30 |
| @kanzure | that's the most metal thing i have ever read | 00:30 |
| @kanzure | "n the mid-1980s, artificial hearts were powered by dishwasher-sized pneumatic power sources whose lineage went back to Alpha-Laval milking machines. Moreover, two sizable catheters had to cross the body wall to carry the pneumatic pulses to the implanted heart, greatly increasing the risk of infection." | 00:33 |
| @kanzure | pneumatic pulses. awesome. | 00:33 |
| @kanzure | gah github is still having trouble spelling letters https://github.com/kanzure | 00:50 |
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| brownies | wait, THAT's the state of the art in artificial hearts still? | 01:09 |
| brownies | they don't have a self-powered artifical heart yet? what the fuck? | 01:10 |
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| @kanzure | brownies: from the wikipedia article, it looks like some of them are wirelessly powered through the chest. patient carries a 4 hour battery backup. | 01:11 |
| brownies | that's... better, but still pretty shitty. | 01:11 |
| brownies | my iPhone has a day of talk time, but the best artificial heart can't make it through an LOTR marathon? | 01:11 |
| brownies | (to say nothing of, you know, a *regular* marathon) | 01:12 |
| @kanzure | i have no idea if these artificial hearts work alright for heavy physical activity | 01:12 |
| @kanzure | i assume that bovines couldn't be controlled that much | 01:13 |
| @kanzure | so they were probably running around like normal(?) | 01:13 |
| @kanzure | or maybe the bovines just lived out the rest of their days sedated or in a cage | 01:13 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nchembio/journal/v9/n2/full/nchembio.1138.html | 01:15 |
| paperbot | HTTP 401 unauthorized http://www.nature.com/nchembio/journal/v9/n2/pdf/nchembio.1138.pdf | 01:15 |
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| xx | I created a GenderQueer and a GenderNeutrality channel :3 | 01:56 |
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| juri_ | anyone here want to join me, building/testing/doing crazy bio-printer stuff? | 08:25 |
| chris_99 | what can you do with a bio-printer? | 08:26 |
| juri_ | i dont know, yet. as a vegan, making new foods sounds like a plan. | 08:27 |
| juri_ | i've got a plastic printer, and am building a steel printer. why not bio, too? | 08:28 |
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| strangewarp | as a fellow vegetarian, I am waiting for the inevitable FDA ban on bio-printed edibles. mmmmm delicious | 08:58 |
| chris_99 | 3d printed falafel would be amusing | 09:00 |
| ThomasEgi | but but but.. printed chocolate!! | 09:04 |
| chris_99 | ooh i wouldn't turn down that | 09:05 |
| ArmilusDajjal | bacon printer | 09:08 |
| ArmilusDajjal | ftw | 09:08 |
| ThomasEgi | ArmilusDajjal, shut up and TAKE MY MONEY! | 09:09 |
| ThomasEgi | bacon brinter *drooool* | 09:09 |
| ArmilusDajjal | i no rite | 09:09 |
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| nmz787 | lol | 09:35 |
| ThomasEgi | the reason why i am here. cause in real life, this conversation wolud NEVER happen. | 09:38 |
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| juri_ | bacon printer? my old roommates and i have had that conversation. ;) | 09:53 |
| nmz787 | i heard in another thread that since milk is essentially a suspension of fat and protein, which is also what bacon is, smooth bacon spread isn't a crazy idea | 10:16 |
| nmz787 | so you could definitely print that | 10:16 |
| nmz787 | add in some transglutaminase to solidify it after it prints out | 10:17 |
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| ThomasEgi | i'd love to see that.. printed bacon.. in form of a frickin dragon. put on the bbq. so it's roaring in flames! | 10:34 |
| ThomasEgi | screaming BAACOOOON!! | 10:34 |
| ThomasEgi | bet that'd sell like crazy | 10:34 |
| nmz787 | hahhahah | 10:35 |
| ThomasEgi | and for our mexian friends. a burning bacon pinata! | 10:42 |
| ThomasEgi | also.. in form of a dragon | 10:42 |
| ThomasEgi | hand me that sword. i need to kill a dragon | 10:43 |
| ThomasEgi | we should name that Dracon. | 10:44 |
| nmz787 | :) | 10:46 |
| ThomasEgi | definetly worth to kickstart it | 10:49 |
| ThomasEgi | lounds like free money | 10:49 |
| juri_ | really does. | 10:54 |
| nmz787 | paperbot:http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/ac800492v | 10:56 |
| nmz787 | paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/ac800492v | 10:56 |
| paperbot | error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Microprocessing%20of%20Liquid%20Plugs%20for%20Bio_chemical%20Analyses.pdf | 10:56 |
| paperbot | error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Microprocessing%20of%20Liquid%20Plugs%20for%20Bio_chemical%20Analyses.pdf | 10:56 |
| kanzure | i don't understand why you need to make a new chocolate printer. what's wrong with the existing chocolate printers? | 10:56 |
| juri_ | 'bacon eaters are bastards. we should kill them all in their sleep.' -- my PETA partner, showing the love. | 10:56 |
| ThomasEgi | i mean.. if we take the intersection of the households with bbq, and skyrim players we probably have our target audience already. | 10:57 |
| juri_ | that's my ex roommates. | 10:57 |
| ThomasEgi | juri_, he probably didn't realise that humans are animals too, and killing them would be against what they fight for ;) | 10:58 |
| ThomasEgi | but hey. just my 2cents. what do i know about logic | 10:58 |
| chris_99 | heh | 10:58 |
| nmz787 | ThomasEgi: does PETA kill people too? | 10:59 |
| kanzure | PETA murders babies and they are evil. | 10:59 |
| kanzure | " PETA has given tens of thousands of dollars to convicted arsonists and other violent criminals. This includes a 2001 donation of $1,500 to the North American Earth Liberation Front (ELF), an FBI-certified "domestic terrorist" group responsible for dozens of firebombs and death threats. During the 1990s, PETA paid $70,200 to an Animal Liberation Front (ALF) activist convicted of burning down a Michigan State University research laboratory" | 11:01 |
| ThomasEgi | nmz787, i'd answer that question with "no, but they don't seem too unhappy if it would happen" | 11:02 |
| nmz787 | geez, let's not piss them off | 11:06 |
| kanzure | there's some other reasons PETA is supposed to suck a lot, $1500 paid to terrorists isn't the primary reason most anti-PETA people suggest. | 11:06 |
| kanzure | what "it kills 84 percent of supposedly "unadoptable" animals within 24 hours of their arrival." | 11:09 |
| jrayhawk | mmmm bacon | 11:15 |
| kanzure | i am pro-euthanasia, but that seems rather extreme. | 11:15 |
| strangewarp | PETA confuses me so much | 11:15 |
| strangewarp | either they have zero self-awareness, or ulterior motives | 11:15 |
| kanzure | besides, i thought all of their marketing materials talk about fidning homes for pets? | 11:18 |
| strangewarp | for people like me, who arrive at vegetarian/veganism through philosophy, these vegan groups that focus on appeal to emotion seem so.. untrustworthy | 11:18 |
| kanzure | "homes... in the ground." | 11:18 |
| strangewarp | I would eat a bioprinted bacon dragon though, that would be pretty funny | 11:20 |
| kanzure | bioluminescent bacon would also be popular, if you could make it heat activated luminescence | 11:22 |
| nmz787 | i remember my mom had this korean stone dragon that had a cigarette lighter in it's mouth | 11:24 |
| strangewarp | damn. yes. @_@ | 11:24 |
| nmz787 | so people love anything dragon shaped i guess | 11:25 |
| nmz787 | if it has something to do with fire (which, yeah, bbq) | 11:25 |
| ThomasEgi | 2 questions.. who's going to set up a kickstarter project.. and what target sum should be asked for? | 11:27 |
| nmz787 | wtf why does hrome history search suck | 11:30 |
| strangewarp | caveat: would only eat the bioprinted bacon if its source were vat-grown. (Vat-grown from initially biopsied tissue is OK.) I've just realized I'm not familiar enough with bioprinting to know how the printed material would be sourced. | 11:31 |
| kanzure | it will be sourced from jmil's printer, obviously | 11:37 |
| strangewarp | obviously. :s | 11:39 |
| chris_99 | ThomasEgi, found out what a paid for electronic hydrometer uses, a load cell | 11:49 |
| ThomasEgi | load cell? | 11:51 |
| chris_99 | measures force | 11:51 |
| ThomasEgi | ah i see | 11:51 |
| ThomasEgi | makes sense. forces are pretty easy to messure | 11:52 |
| chris_99 | apparently though just speaking to someone about them, they only give mV output | 11:53 |
| ThomasEgi | mV is a freakin darn lot sir :D | 11:54 |
| ThomasEgi | i'm used to work with nV | 11:54 |
| ThomasEgi | a simple op-amp and you get your output | 11:55 |
| chris_99 | thats what i said tbh | 11:55 |
| chris_99 | but they said they where using an ADC directly | 11:56 |
| chris_99 | specifically for that kind of thing | 11:56 |
| ThomasEgi | you could use a low ADC reference voltage and get away with it | 11:56 |
| chris_99 | mm | 11:56 |
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| kanzure | i had a dream that bill gates was my personal chauffeur | 12:05 |
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| kanzure | http://shapecatcher.com/ unicode character recognition | 12:26 |
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| ielo | hey | 13:06 |
| ielo | fenn, hi | 13:06 |
| @fenn | wot | 13:10 |
| ielo | remember almost a year ago | 13:10 |
| ielo | we did this thing where we bartered ideas | 13:10 |
| ielo | and you told me about n-grams | 13:10 |
| ielo | i used the nick lumos back then | 13:10 |
| ielo | http://fennetic.net/sleep/stats/net_topics_ngrams_time.txt | 13:10 |
| kanzure | i have lumos down on 2011-06-25 for spamming | 13:11 |
| ielo | compressed information exchange | 13:11 |
| ielo | really, what did i spam | 13:11 |
| @fenn | gosh what an embarrassing list of topics | 13:12 |
| @fenn | i promise i'm not a twilight fan | 13:12 |
| ielo | how did you generate that n-gram list | 13:12 |
| ielo | i want to make one | 13:12 |
| ielo | 34830 lonelygirl15 | 13:12 |
| ielo | haha | 13:12 |
| ielo | 1260 pretty-girl-wallpapers | 13:13 |
| @fenn | strictly speaking that's not an ngram list, for example emc-irc and irc-emc should be a single entry | 13:14 |
| ielo | 72754 kanzure | 13:14 |
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| ielo | these are frequencies right? | 13:14 |
| ielo | how did you make it | 13:14 |
| @fenn | that's a sum of the amount of time spent "on the internet" on various topics, extracted from my daily logs which i make by hand | 13:15 |
| @fenn | when i'm done with a topic i'll write down the start and end time i spent on it, and a list of topics in a file like this http://fennetic.net/sleep/test.txt | 13:16 |
| ielo | you are crazy | 13:16 |
| ielo | but cool | 13:16 |
| @fenn | you can probably make a similar chart in automated fashion by doing clustering on your browser cache or bookmark titles | 13:17 |
| @fenn | k means or SVM, though you'll probably have to do some dimensionality reduction | 13:17 |
| ielo | fenn do you want to see something i am making | 13:19 |
| ielo | galactica.wikidot.com | 13:19 |
| ielo | refresh twice | 13:20 |
| ielo | to see ascii | 13:20 |
| @fenn | yes everything is incredibly unlikely | 13:20 |
| ielo | what do you think i should add to the wikidot next | 13:21 |
| ielo | i want something neat like your ngram experiment | 13:21 |
| @fenn | sometimes it bothers me that i've forgotten more than i'll ever remember | 13:29 |
| @kanzure | how would you know how much you have forgotten? | 13:31 |
| @fenn | we can estimate based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgetting_curve and various estimates of data throughput based on the relative volumes of the retina and cortex. we can estimate the processing power of the retina by making equivalent computer programs | 13:37 |
| @fenn | i can't seem to find this figure.. i guess it was in a book by kurzweil, although somebody else came up with the formula and data | 13:38 |
| @kanzure | i doubt your ever "remembered" what your retina was doing at any given moment in the first place | 13:38 |
| @fenn | not true, i remember many images from my life | 13:38 |
| @kanzure | that's not the raw retina data | 13:38 |
| @fenn | you misunderstand, the idea is to use the retina as a known system to estimate the processing capacity of the cortex | 13:39 |
| @fenn | it's all somewhat bogus anyway | 13:40 |
| @fenn | at least with IRC logs one can do a random sampling of conversations, and then decide "i remember this conversation" or "i don't remember this conversation" and calculate the percentage | 13:41 |
| @kanzure | my point wasn't about estimating how many bytes you have forgotten, but nevermind | 13:41 |
| @fenn | haven't you noticed that you often come across forgotten logs of yourself asking a question? | 13:43 |
| @kanzure | yes..? | 13:44 |
| @fenn | well, i don't know, that seems like a bad thing for some reason | 13:44 |
| @kanzure | i regret asking my question, because it now has you thinking i was confused about how to estimate bytes going into the brain, when my actual issue with your statement is more systemic like "if you've forgotten it, then why would you remember forgetting it" (but this doesn't make sense, i can't remember my actual objection) | 13:45 |
| @fenn | i hate having to something twice, but not even knowing that i've done it before doesn't make it any better | 13:45 |
| @fenn | it's easy to believe that something didn't happen if you can't remember it | 13:46 |
| @kanzure | "if you have forgotten more than you can remember, then how would it bother you if you can't remember how much you have forgotten in the first place?" | 13:47 |
| @fenn | because i can estimate based on random sampling | 13:47 |
| @fenn | say i can remember 10% of recorded conversations from the past year, that implies my forgetting rate | 13:49 |
| @kanzure | no i mean, "if you have failed to correctly recall a list of things you have failed to recall, then how would .." eh forget it. doesn't matter. yes it would be nice if forgetting wasn't a thing. | 13:49 |
| @fenn | is battlestar galactica worth watching? | 13:50 |
| @kanzure | what are you measuring for? | 13:52 |
| @fenn | cultural relevance, communication shortcuts, new ideas, entertainment | 13:52 |
| @kanzure | it wont provide you with anything insightful or new, and you will hate the space battles, but the music is okay and it gives you something to talk about with other people. | 13:53 |
| @fenn | so far it reminds me too much of what i hate about star wars | 13:54 |
| @kanzure | the character development is better than star wars | 13:54 |
| @fenn | do they ever explain why the cylons killed humanity? | 13:54 |
| nmz787 | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odxvp-3nSw4 | 13:55 |
| nmz787 | .title | 13:55 |
| yoleaux | Some Budding Yeast I Used to Grow (Gotye Parody) - YouTube | 13:55 |
| @fenn | another bot? | 13:56 |
| @kanzure | i think this one is nsh's/dpk's fault. it seems to have good manners. | 13:56 |
| nsh | dpk is to blame | 13:57 |
| * nsh only destroys things on the internet | 13:57 | |
| @kanzure | fenn: yes there are big plot holes like that, and their answers aren't really satisfactory ("the bots are perfectionist, so therefore kill all humans") | 14:03 |
| @fenn | ielo: btw your blog post unfairly ignores the anthropic principle (sampling bias) | 14:03 |
| ielo | fenn, hi, sorry one moment just skyping with my mum | 14:03 |
| ielo | ffdfs | 14:06 |
| @fenn | perhaps this is more exactly my objection http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse_gambler%27s_fallacy | 14:06 |
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| ielo | hey | 14:07 |
| ielo | sometimes i time out | 14:07 |
| ielo | fenn, | 14:07 |
| ielo | i havent finished my modelling | 14:07 |
| @fenn | if you're modeling based on collision theory you have to eventually come up with some estimate of the concentration of suitable "love ongoing" (wo)manicules | 14:10 |
| @kanzure | http://whatif.xkcd.com/9/ etc. etc. | 14:11 |
| @fenn | "did your analysis say anything about the dating process of people who spend weekends at home making graphs?" | 14:14 |
| @kanzure | speak for yourself.. scraping okcupid and crunching numbers works out pretty well for me. | 14:15 |
| @fenn | heh s/prospects/process/ was an interesting slip | 14:17 |
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| ielo | fenn, the modelling was actually based on the doomsday hypothesis, i wanted to explain it to my bf but using us as an example :) | 14:54 |
| ielo | unfortunately the model doesnt work so well given that i didnt account for the probability of exactly me and him meeting | 14:55 |
| ielo | and just did it for 2 random people | 14:55 |
| ielo | fallin g in love | 14:55 |
| ielo | so statistically you are always half way there | 14:55 |
| ielo | fenn, i really enjoy reading your website | 14:57 |
| ielo | ""So-and-so has sent you a message." Yeah, what is it? Facebook isn't telling " haha | 15:01 |
| ielo | i have a different mindset to you, instead of changing our ways about living on the surface | 15:06 |
| ielo | we should try to change our vision | 15:06 |
| ielo | earth may be the cradle of mankind, but mankind has grown up and must leave his cradle | 15:06 |
| ielo | its like a payoff matrix | 15:06 |
| ielo | we could have 10 rainforests on 10 planets | 15:06 |
| @fenn | i agree. i'm sad that the L5 society seems to have withered away | 15:12 |
| eudoxia | they sort of lost focus when that guy moved on to the Extropians | 15:13 |
| eudoxia | his name was something like Hanson | 15:13 |
| @fenn | keith henson | 15:13 |
| @fenn | he was mostly distracted with his court battles with the scientology bullies | 15:13 |
| eudoxia | right, him | 15:14 |
| @kanzure | he is presently distracted with solar power satellites | 15:14 |
| eudoxia | i remembered that name but assigned it to the Singularitarian economist | 15:14 |
| eudoxia | (can't remember his name either now) | 15:14 |
| ielo | fenn, do you like btc | 15:14 |
| eudoxia | robin hanson | 15:14 |
| @fenn | kanzure: oh that's good, that was the original strategy for getting L5 up and running | 15:16 |
| eudoxia | on the subject of space | 15:16 |
| eudoxia | i really liked your MIT essay/application, fenn | 15:16 |
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| @fenn | man i can't even remember half of this stuff i wrote | 15:17 |
| @kanzure | are you caught up on backlogs? | 15:19 |
| @fenn | that's an impossible task | 15:19 |
| @kanzure | nothing is impossible with science | 15:19 |
| @kanzure | oh wait maybe that's wrong | 15:19 |
| ielo | wow you 2 are intense | 15:19 |
| * fenn postpones backlogs until he receives his brain implant | 15:19 | |
| ielo | about #hplusroadmap | 15:19 |
| ielo | thats crazy | 15:19 |
| ielo | i never read backlogs | 15:19 |
| ielo | irc is so full of crap | 15:20 |
| @kanzure | you are missing out | 15:20 |
| @fenn | we used to have a higher SNR in here | 15:20 |
| @kanzure | until i showed up | 15:20 |
| ielo | i feel bad for even infecting the snr | 15:20 |
| ielo | this very sentence | 15:20 |
| @fenn | no, it was reddit-nootropics that did it | 15:20 |
| ielo | and this one too | 15:20 |
| ielo | fenn do you like shannon | 15:21 |
| eudoxia | fenn: if you are referring to that vision-of-the-future-y sentence, i get it | 15:21 |
| eudoxia | i would be embarassed too | 15:21 |
| @fenn | eh? i meant reddit-nootropics brought into #hplusroadmap a bunch of trolls and people who make me-too noises | 15:24 |
| eudoxia | re: man i can't even remember half of this stuff i wrote | 15:24 |
| @fenn | i said that because i was like "what MIT essay?" | 15:25 |
| eudoxia | oh silly me | 15:25 |
| eudoxia | i misread 'remember' as 'believe' | 15:25 |
| eudoxia | jesus christ | 15:25 |
| eudoxia | http://fennetic.net/misc/mit-essay.txt | 15:25 |
| @fenn | i do not remember any god | 15:26 |
| @fenn | <3 yuri gagarin | 15:26 |
| @fenn | oh no, i've been lied to by the communist propaganda apparatus | 15:27 |
| @kanzure | fenn: why were we never able to find anyone willing to review the skdb specification proposals? | 15:28 |
| @kanzure | smari once offered some review; something about breaking into hives because of python. but that wasn't related to architecture or simplifying things. | 15:29 |
| @fenn | i never really understood smari's objections | 15:29 |
| @kanzure | like one obvious recommendation that anyone with a brain should have given was "break things into smaller standards", but nobody even mentioned that. my friends are awful. | 15:29 |
| @fenn | nah it was a fine specification, i think people just didn't understand the need for it | 15:29 |
| @fenn | or they were too busy with their own projects and herding other cats | 15:30 |
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| @kanzure | every once in a while i see emails from people that are trying to make a packaging thing (the latest one was thingtracker.net, which was more of a mirror tracking system.. thing), and they all seem to have similar trouble. | 15:30 |
| @fenn | i think until we have the equivalent of an assembler there won't be any use from a package manager | 15:31 |
| @kanzure | a human is an assembler | 15:32 |
| @fenn | a human is also capable of reading plaintext instructions and filling in gaps in their knowlege (or ought to be able to at least) | 15:32 |
| brownies | most humans aren't. | 15:33 |
| @fenn | a competent human* | 15:33 |
| @kanzure | biocurious recently released their "bioprinter" device | 15:33 |
| @kanzure | ..... on instructables. :( :( :( | 15:33 |
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| eudoxia | hey kanz i contributed a package proposal to my fork of skdb | 15:39 |
| @kanzure | i wonder if i miscalculated how hard it would be to get billy gates to fund replicable lab/shop equipment. | 15:39 |
| eudoxia | i was going to show it to you when it's done | 15:39 |
| eudoxia | it probably sucks though and it will probably hit the same barriers you and fenn did | 15:40 |
| @kanzure | looks like http://www.openbiotech.com/ is back online | 15:42 |
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| ephialtes480 | kanzure - what is syntax for requesting a paper from paperbot here? | 15:50 |
| ephialtes480 | http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3790325 | 15:51 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3790325 | 15:51 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/683683c421aaa3857474cb4d0290052e.txt | 15:51 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdfplus/3790325.pdf | 15:52 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/6747c3b8739cce26eeee745de30f4cb3.txt | 15:52 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdfplus/3790325.pdf?acceptTC=true | 15:52 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/573120c756ed8e1f17e60a31d108eb4b.pdf | 15:52 |
| @kanzure | there you go | 15:52 |
| ephialtes480 | I see, accepting the TC is passed as a GET variable... | 15:53 |
| @kanzure | i don't know what TC means | 15:54 |
| @kanzure | i assume they intentionally crippled their http server for some inane reason | 15:54 |
| ephialtes480 | terms and conditions. | 15:54 |
| ephialtes480 | they added an extra step first time you download | 15:54 |
| ephialtes480 | for someone outside the system, the challenge will be to know that ...jstor.org/stable/3790325 should be formatted as ...jstor.org/stable/pdfplus/3790325.pdf?acceptTC=true | 15:56 |
| @kanzure | outside what system | 15:57 |
| ephialtes480 | but this could be hardcoded in for that popular database | 15:57 |
| @kanzure | you're welcome to make that change to paperbot https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot | 15:57 |
| ephialtes480 | without JSTOR access, there is no link to jstor.org/stable/pdfplus/3790325.pdf?acceptTC=true is not | 15:57 |
| @kanzure | that link doesn't work without access anyway | 15:57 |
| @kanzure | i don't see the problem? | 15:57 |
| ephialtes480 | oh, the problem is that if you use the bot | 15:58 |
| ephialtes480 | you will only have the former link (which doesn't work) | 15:58 |
| @kanzure | that's why paperbot gives you 683683c421aaa3857474cb4d0290052e.txt so you can investigate what went wrong | 15:58 |
| ephialtes480 | but you need the latter link for it to work, which you can only find if you already have access to the doc, no? | 15:58 |
| @kanzure | the latter link was inside the file | 15:58 |
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| ephialtes480 | I see. Great. However, that will be a killer for average joes. I'll see if I can learn python (I work in ruby) and play with this, thanks kanzure | 16:00 |
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| seba- | kanzure, hm, what do you think about this http://seba.eu.org/mag/ | 16:09 |
| @kanzure | seba-: i think there are already many existing outlets for non-institutional chemistry | 16:10 |
| seba- | oh | 16:11 |
| seba- | where | 16:11 |
| @kanzure | to be honest, i try to ignore things like instructables, but instructables. | 16:12 |
| @kanzure | various blogs. | 16:12 |
| seba- | yes my point | 16:13 |
| @kanzure | what? | 16:13 |
| @kanzure | i just don't see why a new periodical is needed.. can't you just write blog posts like all the other chemistry bloggers? | 16:13 |
| @kanzure | and you could even aggregate those existing articles. | 16:14 |
| seba- | well this would be an aggregation :) | 16:15 |
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| @kanzure | i still don't understand. why does it have to be a magazine? magazines have been dying for decades now.. | 16:15 |
| seba- | i haven't really 100% decided on the format, it could be just a collection of pdfs, but a magazine looks nicer :) | 16:17 |
| seba- | electronically published | 16:17 |
| @kanzure | there's this thing called css that lets you change what things look like if you hate how it looks | 16:17 |
| seba- | hm, i'll think about it | 16:19 |
| @kanzure | anyway, i think amateur chemistry is important and a good thing | 16:19 |
| seba- | i haven't really settled much in the design and format, i'm now first seeking good enough material for the first edition | 16:20 |
| @kanzure | i think a wiki would be more useful at this point | 16:21 |
| seba- | a few have offered to write something, some already submitted the exact titles, some just various titles and some just said that they will write something :) | 16:21 |
| seba- | oh i've tried a wiki | 16:21 |
| seba- | it failed | 16:21 |
| @fenn | why did it fail? | 16:21 |
| @kanzure | can i see it? | 16:21 |
| seba- | this is my 3rd or 4th attempt | 16:21 |
| @fenn | (and why do you think it will be different this time) | 16:21 |
| @kanzure | show me the wiki. | 16:21 |
| seba- | oh it's down now | 16:21 |
| seba- | it didn't have much | 16:21 |
| @kanzure | well that's why it failed dude. | 16:21 |
| seba- | besides what i wrote | 16:21 |
| seba- | no no | 16:22 |
| seba- | it was online for several years | 16:22 |
| @kanzure | jrayhawk: would it make sense to organize user-specific crap in diyhpluswiki in a users/:name/ set of folders? or is there some already-existing ikiwiki standard for user pages? | 16:23 |
| seba- | fenn, why? i don't really know, i could lie and tell you a few things, but i don't really know. | 16:23 |
| @fenn | please dont put colons in urls | 16:24 |
| @kanzure | what was that science forum i used to like so much? i can't even remember the name. | 16:24 |
| @fenn | sciencemadness? | 16:24 |
| @kanzure | fenn: ":thing" is a way of specifing a variable in a url. in ruby libraries you use this to parse out variables expected in a url. | 16:24 |
| @kanzure | sciencemadness! indeed. | 16:24 |
| seba- | they have this | 16:25 |
| seba- | http://www.sciencemadness.org/member_publications/index.html | 16:25 |
| seba- | but it's bad | 16:25 |
| seba- | not ba | 16:25 |
| seba- | sd | 16:25 |
| seba- | *bad | 16:25 |
| seba- | sorry | 16:25 |
| seba- | i meant dead | 16:25 |
| seba- | lol | 16:25 |
| @fenn | well it's not a wiki | 16:25 |
| seba- | it's not that either imo | 16:26 |
| @fenn | it's not clear how to contribute to it | 16:26 |
| @fenn | i guess you post to the "prepublication" forum | 16:26 |
| @fenn | did i mention i hate forums | 16:26 |
| seba- | it doesn't wokr | 16:26 |
| @kanzure | almost all of the science forums fail | 16:26 |
| seba- | :) | 16:26 |
| @kanzure | i think at this point it is safe to say that forums are the wrong tool for science | 16:27 |
| @kanzure | everyone has tried at this point. | 16:27 |
| seba- | yes | 16:27 |
| seba- | but magazines work for example for electronics | 16:27 |
| @kanzure | haha what | 16:27 |
| @fenn | i guess you're referring to nuts and volts | 16:28 |
| chris_99 | elektor sometimes has some pretty cool stuff in | 16:28 |
| @kanzure | p. sure nuts and volts existed long before the interwebs | 16:28 |
| @kanzure | i think amateur chemistry could benefit greatly if there was a group like blue obelisk except more focused on non-institutional things | 16:29 |
| seba- | http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=18125 | 16:30 |
| @kanzure | http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/blueobelisk/index.php?title=Main_Page | 16:30 |
| seba- | that was my attempt number 3 | 16:30 |
| @kanzure | seba-: journals are the wrong format | 16:31 |
| seba- | yes | 16:31 |
| seba- | i agree :) | 16:31 |
| @kanzure | if your goal was to make a prestigous journal that fits the current paradigm, then making a journal makes sense. | 16:31 |
| @fenn | whatever you do, please make sure to publish it under a copyright that permits redistribution | 16:31 |
| seba- | fenn, of course | 16:31 |
| @kanzure | seba-: chemistry already has a great do-it-yourself tradition. what would you want out of an amateur group specifically? | 16:33 |
| @fenn | "If you want to get people enthusiastic about the idea but you don't have original material to publish, look at some of the nice Prepublication threads and turn them into formatted articles. I would gladly add them to the long-neglected Member Publications section of the site, with a note thanking you for performing the editing and assembly. " | 16:33 |
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| seba- | fenn, yes, that's my plan to do as well | 16:33 |
| @kanzure | to a large extent, cheminformatics is already widely available to amateur chemists (though lots of databases still need to be released) | 16:34 |
| @kanzure | glassware is somewhat simple, but not always obvious and not easy to calibrate or test | 16:34 |
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| @fenn | oh now this just ticks me off, " there are benefits to information being buried in huge/ancient threads though. If it is dangerous/potentially illegal information, having it be only accessable to the few who know the art of research could be a good thing in the big picture..." | 16:35 |
| seba- | kanzure, hm, well i don't know how it's in other countries, but for example here the amateur electronics have a strong community | 16:35 |
| @kanzure | ok so your goal is community? | 16:35 |
| @kanzure | if your goal is community then you should focus on getting hackerspaces to do chemistry projects, i think | 16:36 |
| seba- | kanzure, that's like a higher longterm goal | 16:36 |
| @kanzure | yak shaving | 16:36 |
| @kanzure | inverse yak shaving | 16:36 |
| @kanzure | you're yak shaving but you don't even need to be shaving in the first place | 16:36 |
| @fenn | it's pretty obvious the reason we have so little focus on chemistry as a hobby is the ongoing war on drugs and the collateral damage | 16:36 |
| @kanzure | who is we | 16:37 |
| @fenn | we as in the human race on planet earth early 21st century AD | 16:37 |
| seba- | well yes | 16:37 |
| yashgaroth | also explosives and poisons | 16:37 |
| seba- | but if you can show that you're doing something | 16:37 |
| @kanzure | i don't think that's the reason, many people still do chemistry projects regardless of "the war on drugs" | 16:37 |
| @fenn | nah i don't think explosives is the main reason, given how easy it is to legally acquire explosives already | 16:37 |
| @fenn | my point was that you don't have DEA agents busting down hackerspace doors because they heard someone was playing with an arduino | 16:38 |
| seba- | i think a magazine has some legitimacy in our society | 16:39 |
| seba- | even if in pdf form | 16:39 |
| @kanzure | why is legitimacy important | 16:39 |
| @kanzure | sigh | 16:39 |
| seba- | why? | 16:39 |
| @kanzure | also, if you could show me your wiki, i could possibly host it next to the diybio stuff or something | 16:39 |
| seba- | well if we won't do something about it, amateur chemistry will die | 16:39 |
| seba- | it will die by regulation | 16:39 |
| @kanzure | it sounds like you would feel better making an advocacy organization | 16:40 |
| @fenn | <sarcasm> maybe you should follow the pro-active diybio approach </sarcasm> | 16:40 |
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| seba- | :) | 16:40 |
| seba- | an advocacy group needs something to show | 16:40 |
| seba- | a magazine is something to show to normal people and also nice to read while you're taking a crap | 16:41 |
| @kanzure | blogs are just as nice to read while shitting | 16:41 |
| @kanzure | i think your focus on magazines is antiquated | 16:41 |
| u-metacognition | This is 2013 people look at their smartphones while taking craps, there is no demand for magazines anymore | 16:43 |
| seba- | it wouldn't be a paper magazine | 16:43 |
| seba- | just like a pdf one | 16:43 |
| seba- | :) | 16:43 |
| u-metacognition | Hmmm. | 16:43 |
| @fenn | pdf sucks if you want to do anything besides read it | 16:43 |
| seba- | fenn, like what? :) | 16:43 |
| @kanzure | like editing it | 16:44 |
| @fenn | like, say, reformat it for a different display format (kindle or whatever) | 16:44 |
| @kanzure | or improving it | 16:44 |
| u-metacognition | yea in general I hate pdfs | 16:44 |
| u-metacognition | makes me feel confined | 16:44 |
| seba- | hm | 16:44 |
| @fenn | it's great to have the option to view as a pdf, but not as the only distribution mechanism | 16:44 |
| seba- | yes maybe i should have both | 16:45 |
| seba- | pdf for showing to normal people that we're doing something, for printing, etc. | 16:45 |
| @kanzure | what's wrong with printing html? | 16:45 |
| @fenn | there are plenty of content management systems (joomla for example) that do exactly what you want | 16:45 |
| @kanzure | fenn: shame on you for recommending joomla | 16:46 |
| @kanzure | i would never wish that abomination on anyone. | 16:46 |
| seba- | i won't use joomla ever. | 16:46 |
| @fenn | meh, it's terrible but it is designed for people who think about publishing the way a magazine editor would | 16:46 |
| seba- | i don't know, magazines are nice, usually nicely organized, nice designs, etc. hm | 16:47 |
| seba- | you get to read also stuff you wouldn't normally click | 16:47 |
| @kanzure | hplusroadmap: where the evils of magazines never die :( | 16:47 |
| seba- | and it's usually interesting | 16:47 |
| @fenn | that "nice" is a result of sheer brutal application of human effort | 16:47 |
| seba- | yes | 16:47 |
| seba- | i'm aware of that | 16:48 |
| @kanzure | io9 is supposed to be a magazine too, and look how awful that is | 16:48 |
| @kanzure | and hplusmagazine | 16:48 |
| @fenn | is that why io9 takes forever to load | 16:48 |
| @kanzure | yes, plus the 100s of javascript tracking libraries they pull in | 16:48 |
| @kanzure | theverge is the worst at this (i think their index is >2 MB) | 16:48 |
| @fenn | engadget causes me the most trouble | 16:49 |
| @kanzure | it is funny to run either of those sites while using ghostery. by funny i mean sad. | 16:49 |
| superkuh | I have begun migrating common javascript libraries to a local cache and changing CDN domains to resolve to localhost. | 16:49 |
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| seba- | ok if i for example don't choose a magazine format | 16:50 |
| @kanzure | superkuh: i think someone should be tracking changes to cdn-hosted proprietary libraries so that we can track major changes. | 16:50 |
| seba- | what would you suggest? | 16:50 |
| superkuh | I will consider that as I automate what I am now doing mostly manually. | 16:50 |
| @fenn | kanzure: you could do that and sell the results to the russian mafia (or whoever your customers are these days) | 16:50 |
| seba- | like should i article pop out every month? | 16:51 |
| jrayhawk | kanzure: Don't know of any useful standard. | 16:52 |
| seba- | i would practically want to join all the interesting stuff people publish usually on their websites/blogs/forum posts | 16:54 |
| seba- | into one media | 16:54 |
| seba- | and filter noise out and make it all look nice enough | 16:55 |
| @fenn | seba-: honestly the particular choice of tools doesn't matter that much, as long as you think about future migration to a different platform, maintaining interest in the project, and having a process for handing over responsibility for the project | 16:55 |
| @kanzure | superkuh: this might help, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/ghostery.json | 16:55 |
| seba- | fenn, for the 4th attempt i've decided that i won't start with the format and style, but i'll instead gather first people and articles and then i hope it will come naturally what to do | 16:56 |
| seba- | inso far it's working ok :) | 16:56 |
| superkuh | Thanks. | 16:57 |
| @fenn | seba-: i haven't personally made much use of these things myself, but RSS/atom aggregators and "planets" seem to be what you're describing | 16:57 |
| @fenn | but you'd obviously want to include forum posts as well. there's probably a tool for that too | 16:58 |
| @kanzure | forumburner converts forums to rss. | 16:58 |
| @fenn | but you dont want to forward every single post to your publication | 16:58 |
| seba- | see that's why i've said magazine | 16:58 |
| seba- | a magazine is more strict | 16:58 |
| @kanzure | fenn: most of the planets have a review step, even with rss aggregation. | 16:58 |
| seba- | it chooses what to publish, it has to meet a certain threeshold for quality, it has to be formatted the same | 16:59 |
| seba- | it has sections | 16:59 |
| seba- | etc. | 16:59 |
| @kanzure | but why? all of this sounds completely arbitrary. | 16:59 |
| @fenn | so appoint an editor to do all that | 16:59 |
| @fenn | formatting is not so important as long as it's accessible and technically correct | 17:00 |
| @fenn | you aren't trying to make a robot follow the instructions after all | 17:00 |
| @kanzure | superkuh: the http://www.ghostery.com/remote/update endpoint has json embedded in the page with regular expressions for privacy-violating javascript stuff. but it doesn't give you the exact urls. i guess you could browse around for a while and just find out which urls are loaded and use this as a whitelist to figure out which cdn javascripts you care about. | 17:00 |
| @fenn | there are already various chemical reaction databases out there (availability notwithstanding) | 17:00 |
| @kanzure | seba-: btw, we only sound negative about this because we care so much. | 17:03 |
| @kanzure | amateur chemistry is definitely useful and important, but understanding these things (including what went wrong or why things fail) helps figure out what else to be doing. | 17:04 |
| seba- | yes, i'm just lost on what would be the best thing and how to put in words why i think certain things would be a bad or good idea | 17:05 |
| seba- | :) | 17:05 |
| seba- | but generally amateur chemists lack organisation, community or something similarly formal | 17:06 |
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| @kanzure | seba-: is that bad? | 17:07 |
| seba- | well if you tinker with electronics and buy relays and capacitors and chips, that's totally acceptable | 17:08 |
| seba- | even thou you could be doing a remote trigger for a bomb | 17:08 |
| seba- | but nobody thinks about that | 17:08 |
| @kanzure | but for some reason you think i can't forge my own glass or extract nitrogen from manures? | 17:08 |
| @kanzure | hehe forge | 17:08 |
| @kanzure | blow, i mean. | 17:08 |
| @fenn | snort | 17:08 |
| @fenn | snort your own glass powder, i mean | 17:08 |
| seba- | but if i want to buy sulfuric acid it's an outrage why i need it, even thou i could just put it out of lead-acid batteries if i wanted. | 17:09 |
| seba- | and yes, my objective could be an advocacy group, but it's hard to show to normal people that you're doing something useful | 17:10 |
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| SebastianCocioba | there we go | 17:10 |
| @fenn | too bad "the right to do science" wasn't included in the US constitution | 17:10 |
| seba- | the hamradio community for example resists enourmous lobbying pressures to release EM spectrum reserverd for them | 17:10 |
| @kanzure | SebastianCocioba: i think i know you from snapgene? | 17:10 |
| SebastianCocioba | porbably! i use it a lot | 17:11 |
| seba- | but if they would decide that sulfuric acid is off the limits to normal people | 17:11 |
| seba- | who would fight that? | 17:11 |
| superkuh | It is already so for many jurisdictions and people in apartments. | 17:12 |
| SebastianCocioba | small world | 17:12 |
| seba- | in germany already practicing amateur chemistry is practically a felony, in texas you have to register glassware | 17:12 |
| @kanzure | SebastianCocioba: ah you are new york botanics | 17:12 |
| seba- | where i live it's not like that, i can buy practically every chemical i want, but that's an exception in the world i guess | 17:12 |
| SebastianCocioba | idk what the dif is between a beaker and a cup. the graduations are crap anyway | 17:12 |
| @kanzure | SebastianCocioba: sometimes it takes me a few minutes to remember people, sorry | 17:12 |
| @kanzure | SebastianCocioba: what does your company do? | 17:13 |
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| SebastianCocioba | sry im new to irc, is the @redname a pm an how would i do similar. i = supernoob | 17:13 |
| seba- | in the UK a few years ago, a hobbiest chemical supplier | 17:13 |
| seba- | was radied by police | 17:13 |
| @kanzure | SebastianCocioba: no, it is just a way to highlight people in an active channel, it is not private | 17:13 |
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| seba- | and all white powders were seized because they could be used for cuting drugs | 17:14 |
| @kanzure | SebastianCocioba: "@" in irc refers to admins | 17:14 |
| seba- | like even stuff like glucose or similar inoccous stuff | 17:14 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure | 17:14 | |
| SebastianCocioba | my company is plant biotech. i do microprop, transformation services, etc etc. plant stuff. | 17:14 |
| kanzure | SebastianCocioba: what are your prices on your services? | 17:15 |
| seba- | and society sees allowed amateur chemistry more as baking soda + vinegar, practically if you have a chemistry set at home that means that you're a terrorist or a drug cook | 17:15 |
| kanzure | SebastianCocioba: like say i want a hairy root culture to produce some shitty enzyme, is this something you do and how much dough would i toss your way? | 17:15 |
| seba- | if i put antennas on the house, i wouldn't be seen as a spy or terrorist, more as a ham or something | 17:16 |
| SebastianCocioba | depends on the species. im trying to compile a good cost since im just entering the field of actually offering the service. most do it for 500 but im no theif. i charge twice the cost of materials. | 17:16 |
| kanzure | SebastianCocioba: who is included in most? COA labs ? | 17:16 |
| SebastianCocioba | by materials i mean net cost of production, energy, reagents, etc | 17:16 |
| kanzure | erm, COA is the wrong acronym | 17:16 |
| yashgaroth | CRO | 17:16 |
| kanzure | thanks | 17:16 |
| kanzure | fucking acronyms | 17:17 |
| SebastianCocioba | si | 17:17 |
| seba- | also a lot of interesting stuff gets done by amateurs and it gets lost in noise | 17:17 |
| seba- | and 2349234 sources | 17:17 |
| kanzure | SebastianCocioba: sounds like a good price, cool. how's business? | 17:17 |
| seba- | hm | 17:18 |
| seba- | ok i'll end my monologue | 17:18 |
| SebastianCocioba | im sifting through the legal bs to get this on its feet. the company used to just microprop for ppl, i lost grow space so i decided to shift to less space intensive services | 17:18 |
| SebastianCocioba | i have some priv customers but im not online yet with the whole shebang. its tough to ensure u are doing things by the books | 17:19 |
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| SebastianCocioba | so is anyone from the list online now besides you kanzure? | 17:21 |
| kanzure | SebastianCocioba: tons of people. i think you would recognize nmz787 the most though. | 17:21 |
| SebastianCocioba | :) | 17:22 |
| SebastianCocioba | i've been up to my neck in protoplasts for the last 3 weeks. i need a break... | 17:28 |
| kanzure | SebastianCocioba: you could goof off with us | 17:29 |
| kanzure | or possibly help improve the diybio faq? http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq | 17:29 |
| kanzure | it needs lots of work. | 17:29 |
| SebastianCocioba | yay teh goofing! | 17:30 |
| SebastianCocioba | i want to add more to the openwetware plant protocols page | 17:30 |
| SebastianCocioba | its severely underdeveloped | 17:30 |
| SebastianCocioba | but ur right the faq needs some lovin too | 17:31 |
| kanzure | openwetware has seemed a little dead ever since they let go of bill flanagan | 17:32 |
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| kanzure | MindtoMatter: hello | 17:32 |
| seba- | diybio seems interesting | 17:33 |
| MindtoMatter | Hey all | 17:33 |
| kanzure | seba-: since you seem to like magazines.. check out http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/news | 17:33 |
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| MindtoMatter | DIYbio does seem interesting, but I'm a total armchair observer - My hobby focus goes to additive manufacturing | 17:35 |
| kanzure | MindtoMatter: reprap? | 17:35 |
| MindtoMatter | whatever | 17:35 |
| kanzure | k | 17:35 |
| MindtoMatter | I'm not particular | 17:35 |
| MindtoMatter | Have you seen the Cubespawn program? | 17:35 |
| kanzure | yes, i know james | 17:35 |
| seba- | kanzure does it work? | 17:36 |
| MindtoMatter | Good guy :) | 17:36 |
| kanzure | MindtoMatter: you might be interested in these, then http://heybryan.org/om.html | 17:36 |
| SebastianCocioba | maybe an hplus subdivision for diybio may seem more appropriate. wouldn't want to bore ppl with our wet-lab banter :P | 17:36 |
| kanzure | MindtoMatter: james used to post to the openmanufacturing group, which has lots of related projects | 17:36 |
| MindtoMatter | I think he still does | 17:37 |
| seba- | hm | 17:37 |
| kanzure | SebastianCocioba: haha, it's not boring at all. wetlab is extremely important. | 17:37 |
| MindtoMatter | Lot of activity on that project these days, great to see | 17:37 |
| kanzure | MindtoMatter: what has happened recently? | 17:37 |
| MindtoMatter | bunch of new blood has gotten involved over the last 4 or so months | 17:37 |
| kanzure | yes but what have they done? | 17:37 |
| MindtoMatter | Well not anything conclusive, but it's substantially more activity and eyes on the topic than when I checked in 6 months before that | 17:38 |
| MindtoMatter | I feel like the current environment makes it difficult to do anything, much less create a new type of modular open standard | 17:38 |
| seba- | i think i get lost in these websites | 17:39 |
| MindtoMatter | so I commend action even if it doesn't seem to generate results | 17:39 |
| SebastianCocioba | my Up! mini needs dusting...gotta love additive mfg :) | 17:39 |
| seba- | maybe i'm just retarded | 17:39 |
| kanzure | seba-: what do you mean lost? where are you trying to go? | 17:39 |
| seba- | http://hplusmagazine.com/ it's this the magazine? | 17:42 |
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| kanzure | seba-: it is awful and you should ignore it | 17:45 |
| seba- | everything is so unstructured | 17:45 |
| seba- | hm | 17:45 |
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| kanzure | i regret helping them | 17:45 |
| seba- | i'll seriously think about the format, it was insightful talking with you | 17:45 |
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| kanzure | What: hi | 17:46 |
| -!- What is now known as Guest57007 | 17:46 | |
| MindtoMatter | Why do you regret helping them? | 17:47 |
| kanzure | MindtoMatter: i thought i could help the organization become more focused on engineering projects, so i was hired as director of R&D | 17:48 |
| kanzure | but it turns out that there are organizational reasons that they only do conferences/promos/magazines instead of technology projects | 17:48 |
| seba- | i have this idea, vision in my head, how it should look like | 17:48 |
| seba- | i just can't put it into words | 17:48 |
| MindtoMatter | I think you did | 17:49 |
| MindtoMatter | not compatable | 17:49 |
| kanzure | MindtoMatter: anyway it ended up with them threatening lawsuits against me. | 17:49 |
| MindtoMatter | yeah | 17:49 |
| MindtoMatter | It happens | 17:49 |
| MindtoMatter | ;) | 17:49 |
| kanzure | MindtoMatter: i don't really see why an organization focused on the future would buy a magazine for itself. that doesn't make sense.. magazines have been dying for years. | 17:49 |
| MindtoMatter | Things eventually sort themselves out? or are you still on poor terms | 17:49 |
| kanzure | still on poor terms; it doesn't matter though. it's not like a lot was lost in this. | 17:50 |
| MindtoMatter | kanzure: sometimes smart people do irrational things | 17:50 |
| kanzure | i made no claims of smartness | 17:50 |
| MindtoMatter | Well | 17:50 |
| MindtoMatter | spending money on something can make it very important it be viewed as smart | 17:50 |
| MindtoMatter | capital has a sort of momentum about it | 17:50 |
| MindtoMatter | so if they spent money on a magazine | 17:50 |
| MindtoMatter | you can see why they like it :) | 17:51 |
| kanzure | so far the biohacking community has been tremendously more productive than the humanityplus/hplusmagazine organization has ever been | 17:51 |
| MindtoMatter | sure | 17:51 |
| MindtoMatter | but we're still so early in all these things, it's like arguing over centimeters when theres still miles to go | 17:51 |
| kanzure | what? | 17:52 |
| kanzure | do you know humanityplus? | 17:52 |
| MindtoMatter | I do not | 17:52 |
| MindtoMatter | but I follow a bunch of communities | 17:52 |
| MindtoMatter | everyone is on the same path, loosely | 17:52 |
| @fenn | god i hope not | 17:52 |
| kanzure | i don't think it's wise to assume that i'm arguing about anything. | 17:52 |
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| MindtoMatter | I was just referring to your comment on the productivity of biohacking vs. HP | 17:53 |
| MindtoMatter | its relative | 17:53 |
| kanzure | it is not relative at all | 17:53 |
| MindtoMatter | than I withdraw the point | 17:53 |
| kanzure | humanityplus is theoretically interested in biohacking, and they used to espouse lots of rhetoric about "continuous self-improvement" and self-education, but none of them bothered to learn the biology necessary to do the things they wanted to do.. | 17:54 |
| @fenn | the thing is, some people see propaganda, media, PR stunts, political lobbying etc to be "progress", and some people don't | 17:54 |
| kanzure | fenn: did you see the email from anders sandberg recently? | 17:55 |
| @fenn | no, what's the gist of it? | 17:55 |
| kanzure | On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 9:26 AM, Anders Sandberg wrote: | 17:56 |
| kanzure | > cosmological re-engineering of Dyson and Tipler. The key thing was the | 17:56 |
| kanzure | > realization that the universe is enormous, yet there exist actions that | 17:56 |
| kanzure | > allow you to leverage things to ever greater scales. So I just set out to | 17:56 |
| kanzure | > make myself into some kind of scientist-hero able to do that, pursuing | 17:56 |
| kanzure | > self-enhancement, learning and networking. I just wish more people did that | 17:56 |
| kanzure | > kind of attempted life -shaping. | 17:56 |
| kanzure | and i replied "But didn't you ....settle?" | 17:56 |
| kanzure | and then he replied with this long diatribe about how hopeless everything is, or something | 17:56 |
| kanzure | anyway, it was extremely disappointing | 17:56 |
| yashgaroth | haha wow | 17:56 |
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| @fenn | so his approach failed due to things beyond his control | 17:57 |
| kanzure | fenn: http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2013-January/075752.html | 17:58 |
| @fenn | i mean we barely even have a functioning space program, it's a bit much to be working on dyson spheres | 17:58 |
| kanzure | but his other goals were things like whole brain emulation, which desperately needs people to be contributing work to (especially open source additions) | 17:58 |
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| @fenn | but he himself estimates it won't be practical for another 25 years | 17:59 |
| @fenn | for reasons having nothing to with brains | 17:59 |
| seba- | i'm thinking that i'm maybe not the right person for what i've set up to do, i don't even know exactly what i want to do in words lol | 18:00 |
| kanzure | which part of it, hardware? | 18:00 |
| @fenn | computing costs mostly | 18:00 |
| kanzure | yes, and? markram just got a few billion or something. | 18:00 |
| @fenn | you could yoke all the computers in the world to your brain simulation and the result would be a human running in slow-time | 18:01 |
| kanzure | so? | 18:01 |
| @fenn | meanwhile they're self-replicating for free | 18:01 |
| @fenn | so it's not much of an advantage | 18:01 |
| kanzure | also, non-whole brain emulation is still useful | 18:01 |
| @fenn | we already have non-whole brain emulation | 18:02 |
| kanzure | not quite, we are missing lots of details hidden in academic journals | 18:02 |
| @fenn | aroo? | 18:02 |
| kanzure | there are many different types of neurons and microcircuits that make up the brain | 18:02 |
| kanzure | while you could model them with basic spiking neurons, that's really not what's going on.. | 18:03 |
| kanzure | i mean, the basic spiking models do not capture the other details | 18:03 |
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| MindtoMatter | So i'm curious, are you guys familiar with bisphenol-A? | 18:03 |
| @fenn | so did markram ever publish any code? or is he sitting on it hoping it will do him some good | 18:03 |
| @fenn | MindtoMatter: that is really not relevant | 18:04 |
| kanzure | as far as i know, his work is sitting on top of NEURON (maybe) and it's not open source (definitely) | 18:04 |
| @fenn | MindtoMatter: you might as well ask about climate change or gun control, sheesh | 18:04 |
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| MindtoMatter | @fenn: it's relevant because I'm involved in a project related to it doing a bunch of testing, and you're a different crowd than I generally interact with | 18:04 |
| seba- | MindtoMatter, what about BPA? | 18:05 |
| MindtoMatter | it was a broad question | 18:05 |
| seba- | then yes | 18:05 |
| MindtoMatter | as a pervasive environmental estrogen pervasive in all forms of food packaging? | 18:05 |
| kanzure | fenn: whole brain emulation is not the only way that anders could be doing things. i'm just all around disappointed with how he has aged. | 18:06 |
| MindtoMatter | excuse the first pervasive | 18:06 |
| @fenn | MindtoMatter: do you think "transhumanism" means feeding all the starving children in africa? | 18:06 |
| MindtoMatter | no | 18:06 |
| kanzure | fenn: MindtoMatter is in here because of diybio, i think | 18:06 |
| MindtoMatter | yes | 18:06 |
| kanzure | fenn: different contexts | 18:06 |
| seba- | MindtoMatter, it's not in all | 18:07 |
| kanzure | i assume this means you're building spectrometers? or what sort of testing equipment? | 18:07 |
| MindtoMatter | seba: what is it not in? | 18:07 |
| @fenn | if he wants to make an accessible/cheap test for BPA that's cool, but i just dont want to drown in discussions of policy and economics | 18:08 |
| MindtoMatter | No, I'm not hardware | 18:08 |
| kanzure | if you're not hardware then what are you? | 18:08 |
| MindtoMatter | We're probably going to run a kickstarter campaign to do a bulk test buy actually and try to get the per test cost down to $100 at part per billion scale | 18:08 |
| MindtoMatter | But we partner with labs for that | 18:08 |
| @fenn | some kind of estrogen receptor hooked up to an indicator protein in a genetically engineered e. coli would be neat | 18:09 |
| @fenn | $0.01 per test | 18:09 |
| MindtoMatter | Ikanzure: My background is environementally friendly foodservice packaging | 18:09 |
| kanzure | or less | 18:09 |
| MindtoMatter | When we first starting sourcing tests last year, some labs quoted at 3200/test | 18:09 |
| MindtoMatter | we eventually found someone who charged us 500 per test | 18:10 |
| MindtoMatter | and then talked them down to I think 300 | 18:10 |
| kanzure | science exchange could probably hook you up with the people to engineer an ecoli with that test | 18:10 |
| kanzure | or you could learn which genes to whack together and do it yourself | 18:10 |
| MindtoMatter | I'd love any contacts you can recommend | 18:10 |
| MindtoMatter | Anyhow, I'm still waiting for a response seba? What food packaging is BPA not in | 18:11 |
| kanzure | fenn's idea is actually highly realistic | 18:11 |
| MindtoMatter | my email is adamlevinemobile@gmail.com, i'd love to talk about working on it | 18:11 |
| MindtoMatter | :) very much looking for partners with complimentary skillsets for this project | 18:12 |
| MindtoMatter | Anyhow, to answer my own question - BPA is in literally almost every piece of food packaging that goes out | 18:12 |
| @fenn | hooray. | 18:12 |
| kanzure | it sounds like you're already committed to fundraising to pay a testing lab | 18:12 |
| kanzure | so i don't see the point | 18:12 |
| @fenn | phthalates rain down from the atmosphere in all urban areas on the planet | 18:12 |
| seba- | i'm sure you can find a cheap test for BPA | 18:12 |
| MindtoMatter | we haven't committed to anything, we're looking for the best way to actually get this shit out of the system | 18:12 |
| kanzure | why | 18:13 |
| MindtoMatter | cheap and highly accurate to the part per trillion is the issue | 18:13 |
| @fenn | phytoestrogens are prevalent in a wide variety of foods themselves, regardless of packaging | 18:13 |
| MindtoMatter | I can link you to some studies if you'd like | 18:13 |
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| @fenn | i've read lots of studies, i agree it's "a bad thing" | 18:13 |
| @fenn | but there are other bad things out there that are much worse, like dying for instance | 18:14 |
| seba- | why ppt | 18:14 |
| MindtoMatter | the stimulus package spent 30 million on 100 or so studies in the last 2 years, they're pretty compelling stuff | 18:14 |
| MindtoMatter | because it's active at ppt | 18:14 |
| MindtoMatter | and detrimental | 18:14 |
| MindtoMatter | it's not the dose, it's the persistent exposure | 18:14 |
| MindtoMatter | specifically at specific times of development | 18:14 |
| seba- | the problem is that if you're pregnant | 18:15 |
| MindtoMatter | but it effects virtually every group, it's nuts | 18:15 |
| ephialtes480 | kanzure - your paperbot, the git hub papers.py - does this code just get dumped in together with a phenny bot somehow? With a zotero server running? I'm trying to figure out how you connected the pieces together | 18:15 |
| seba- | it's comulative | 18:15 |
| seba- | :) | 18:15 |
| seba- | otherwisee it's not | 18:15 |
| seba- | afaik | 18:15 |
| MindtoMatter | not really seba | 18:15 |
| kanzure | ephialtes480: yep that's right | 18:15 |
| seba- | MindtoMatter, the biggest exposure to BPA is probably water heaters and thermal printer paper | 18:15 |
| kanzure | ephialtes480: https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot#readme | 18:15 |
| MindtoMatter | seba: you think that's true, but it's not | 18:16 |
| MindtoMatter | it's in recycled paper | 18:16 |
| MindtoMatter | because the reciepts are recycled | 18:16 |
| MindtoMatter | the whole system has been concentrating BPA for the last 10 years | 18:16 |
| seba- | recycled paper? | 18:16 |
| seba- | who uses that | 18:16 |
| MindtoMatter | yes | 18:16 |
| seba- | lol | 18:16 |
| MindtoMatter | do you use paper bags? | 18:16 |
| MindtoMatter | do you use paper napkins? | 18:16 |
| seba- | no | 18:16 |
| seba- | no | 18:17 |
| MindtoMatter | toilet paper? | 18:17 |
| seba- | yes, but not recycled | 18:17 |
| MindtoMatter | toilet paper is almost all 40%, they just don't say it | 18:17 |
| seba- | BASTARDS | 18:17 |
| MindtoMatter | I have a study you can see that tested like 40 varieties and found BPA in 92% | 18:17 |
| seba- | i want virgin toilet paper | 18:17 |
| ephialtes480 | kanzure, Thanks, I saw your readme but it didn't say much on how exactly the pieces fit together. I assume papers.py methods get added to the phenny script. I'll give it a shot | 18:17 |
| seba- | what does that mean found BPA | 18:17 |
| seba- | look | 18:17 |
| seba- | you can find BPA everywhere | 18:17 |
| seba- | if you're searching for ppt | 18:17 |
| MindtoMatter | yes | 18:18 |
| MindtoMatter | thats because we produce 6 billion tons of it yearly | 18:18 |
| MindtoMatter | crazy huh | 18:18 |
| kanzure | ephialtes480: when you install phenny, you are given a ~/.phenny/config.py that you have to edit. you edit it to point to your modules directory (which paperbot provides). | 18:18 |
| seba- | in heated water in PC you actually get micrograms of BPA | 18:18 |
| seba- | not ppt | 18:18 |
| MindtoMatter | only has a half life of 6 hours | 18:18 |
| seba- | probably my biggest exposure to BPA is pure BPA | 18:18 |
| MindtoMatter | I had no idea that polycarbonite is literally BPA with benzene to bond | 18:18 |
| ephialtes480 | kanzure - excelllent, seeing that now as I study phenny code in more detail. | 18:18 |
| seba- | from epoxy glue | 18:18 |
| MindtoMatter | yep | 18:18 |
| kanzure | ephialtes480: the phenny code isn't that great. | 18:19 |
| seba- | benzene to bond? | 18:19 |
| MindtoMatter | it's slightly more complex than that, but the constituent componant is straight up BPA | 18:19 |
| MindtoMatter | can't make polycarbonite without it | 18:19 |
| seba- | i know how PC is | 18:19 |
| seba- | well it's a polyester | 18:19 |
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| seba- | so if you heat it | 18:19 |
| seba- | it hydrolizes | 18:19 |
| seba- | and you get free BPA | 18:20 |
| seba- | also acids/bases etc. | 18:20 |
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| MindtoMatter | We tested Chipotle's napkin and found 450 parts per billion of BPA in a single napkin | 18:20 |
| MindtoMatter | newspapers are 70-100% recycled paper | 18:20 |
| seba- | that's nothing | 18:20 |
| MindtoMatter | lol | 18:20 |
| seba- | 450 ppb | 18:20 |
| seba- | no really | 18:20 |
| MindtoMatter | the FDA safe is 50ppb, and studies show effect right on through .025 ppb | 18:20 |
| seba- | heated water in PC has like ppm | 18:20 |
| seba- | not ppb | 18:20 |
| MindtoMatter | I agree, that's even worse | 18:21 |
| seba- | http://www.ffa.uni-lj.si/fileadmin/datoteke/Knjiznica/diplome/2011/Peterec_Andreja_dipl_nal_2011.pdf | 18:21 |
| MindtoMatter | You can take a look at the study database I'm compiling, https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoPQ9D7Ob3GDdHR0d2pkU09KSUdmYzlFVXdULV8yM2c&usp=sharing | 18:21 |
| seba- | average PC water heater | 18:21 |
| seba- | gives 1.4 ug/L | 18:21 |
| MindtoMatter | I already agreed, that's also very unsafe | 18:22 |
| seba- | and dose is comulative if you're pregnant | 18:22 |
| MindtoMatter | why would you citing ppm make me feel better when I'm concerned about smaller quantities, like ppb in addition to larger quantities/ | 18:22 |
| MindtoMatter | yep | 18:22 |
| MindtoMatter | kanzure: Thanks for the link earlier to your writing on toolbook, this looks very applicable to my interests.l | 18:23 |
| kanzure | that's eric hunting | 18:23 |
| kanzure | sadly i am not eric hunting | 18:23 |
| MindtoMatter | well theres always tomorrow | 18:23 |
| seba- | in water here was 2.1 to 23.6 ng/L | 18:24 |
| seba- | municipal water | 18:24 |
| kanzure | MindtoMatter: those discussions are from http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing | 18:24 |
| seba- | average was 8.8 ng/L | 18:24 |
| MindtoMatter | Thank you kanzure, I will check it out | 18:24 |
| seba- | MindtoMatter, in those things where you get water from a "baloon", the concentrations were from 10 ng/L to 290 ng/L | 18:25 |
| seba- | MindtoMatter, average 93 ng/L | 18:25 |
| MindtoMatter | What do you think about that? | 18:26 |
| seba- | PET bottled water had around 6-7 ng/L | 18:27 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ | 18:27 | |
| -!- kanzure changed the topic of ##hplusroadmap to: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA | http://gnusha.org/logs http://diyhpl.us/wiki http://groups.google.com/group/diybio | banned by the Federal Death Administration | 18:28 | |
| seba- | i don't see such a big problem as you do | 18:28 |
| seba- | MindtoMatter, besides the limit 50 ppb is 50 ug | 18:30 |
| seba- | now the biggest polutant here was the water heater | 18:30 |
| seba- | with 1.4 ug/L | 18:30 |
| seba- | you need to drink 35 L to get to 50 ug | 18:31 |
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| seba- | hm i think i know more about BPA that i thought | 18:34 |
| seba- | lol | 18:34 |
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| @kanzure | hmm i should learn how to use lldb at some point (the llvm debugger) | 18:50 |
| @kanzure | http://lldb.llvm.org/ | 18:50 |
| @kanzure | what why does the llvm project use svn? | 18:50 |
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| SebastianCocioba | pew pew | 19:05 |
| @kanzure | ow | 19:06 |
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| @kanzure | eleitl: have you picked an inventory thing yet? | 19:30 |
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| @kanzure | "The article mentions the American Historical Review as having annual (editorial) costs of about $500k [1]" | 19:44 |
| @kanzure | http://blog.historians.org/news/1734/aha-statement-on-scholarly-journal-publishing | 19:44 |
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| nmz787 | MindtoMatter: why did you think Chipotle napkins would have BPA in them? | 21:09 |
| yashgaroth | I imagine it was because they contain recycled thermal receipt paper, which contains bpa | 21:10 |
| @kanzure | recycled pa-- | 21:10 |
| @kanzure | yeah ok | 21:10 |
| yashgaroth | booya | 21:10 |
| nmz787 | huh | 21:11 |
| nmz787 | so that means they'll keep sterile better too, then, righ? | 21:11 |
| yashgaroth | obviously the solution is not to recycle anything | 21:11 |
| nmz787 | how do i just reinforce the BPA detox systems? | 21:12 |
| yashgaroth | well it's probably just traditional renal excretion | 21:12 |
| nmz787 | was the metabolism talked about eariler? jrayhawk might know how BPA is detoxed | 21:12 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: what are the margins on CROs? | 21:13 |
| yashgaroth | no idea, depends on the line of work and ability to fuck employees | 21:13 |
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| @kanzure | let's assume no employees are harmed in the operation of this CRO | 21:13 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.google.com/search?q=stage+liver+detox | 21:13 |
| yashgaroth | well I ain't worked at one directly, but current unnamed company is definitely under 50% | 21:14 |
| yashgaroth | and it's technically a CRO, albeit a GMP one | 21:14 |
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| yashgaroth | thanks to glorious free market | 21:14 |
| yashgaroth | idk how transcriptics makes their money, aside from 'robits!' | 21:15 |
| @kanzure | i thought they make money from molecular cloning | 21:15 |
| @kanzure | also they don't have to be profitable because they have venture funding at the moment | 21:16 |
| yashgaroth | I mean their supposed profit margins or w/e | 21:16 |
| yashgaroth | that may be a large factor | 21:16 |
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| yashgaroth | however your average 'antibodies for $' company makes a shit-ton more than GMP does, I mean they still charge thousands per milligram | 21:17 |
| @kanzure | yeah i've been wondering about just doing a front on top of chinese antibody production | 21:18 |
| @kanzure | with some "value-add" of some sort that i can't fathom | 21:18 |
| -!- qu-bit_ is now known as qui-bit | 21:19 | |
| -!- qui-bit is now known as qu-bit | 21:19 | |
| yashgaroth | shipping costs might add quite a bit, and you'd have to strictly obfuscate that since no one wants their primo sequences falling into the PRC's hands | 21:19 |
| yashgaroth | not to mention recouping equipment costs, since that stuff doesn't get cheaper overseas | 21:20 |
| yashgaroth | while I'm sure knockoff chinese 'centrofugers' are top notch, I don't even know if someone there makes them | 21:21 |
| yashgaroth | reagents might be cheaper though | 21:21 |
| sarav | hi | 21:22 |
| yashgaroth | it's mostly a labor issue, but let's be honest unless you need a PhD to troubleshoot a tricky sequence the labor barely requires training | 21:22 |
| yashgaroth | hello sarav | 21:22 |
| @kanzure | i'm also not sure how flooded the antibody market is | 21:22 |
| yashgaroth | everyone and their grad school buddy is starting one | 21:23 |
| @kanzure | ah. | 21:23 |
| yashgaroth | amgen lays you off? start an antibody company with your friend who got laid off from GSK | 21:23 |
| yashgaroth | not that I have any market data or anything, that's just word on the street | 21:24 |
| @kanzure | makes sense. | 21:24 |
| yashgaroth | best bet is to throw some bullshit up for angel funding about crowdsourcing democratized disruptive argh my brain | 21:25 |
| @kanzure | that's not a good bet | 21:25 |
| yashgaroth | it's not like thiel or cuban have enforcer thugs, right? | 21:25 |
| @kanzure | huh? | 21:25 |
| yashgaroth | you know, if you don't deliver a product and instead just buy cocaine with the funding | 21:26 |
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| yashgaroth | like what ubiome is totally not gonna do | 21:28 |
| @kanzure | jessica richman has been spamming everything about that | 21:28 |
| @kanzure | ugh | 21:28 |
| yashgaroth | jojack had some choice words, let me tell you | 21:28 |
| @kanzure | i've often thought of programming an irc bot to speak like jojack in his absence | 21:29 |
| @kanzure | he can be modeled with a simple markov chain model | 21:29 |
| @kanzure | "fucking ubiome, got almost $300k from fucking indiegogo" | 21:29 |
| @kanzure | "i know the founders and they are losers" | 21:30 |
| @kanzure | "highly unlikely that they will deliver anything but cocaine" | 21:30 |
| @kanzure | or something.. i have lost my touch. | 21:30 |
| yashgaroth | "eri gentry is a schmoozing cunt and randal koene is a sex addict" | 21:30 |
| @kanzure | wasn't eri supposed to be involved in genomera or something | 21:31 |
| @kanzure | what happened with that | 21:31 |
| yashgaroth | she's in fucking everything soon as she gets the chance | 21:31 |
| @kanzure | and wasn't randal married to like 4 people simultaneously? | 21:31 |
| yashgaroth | quantified self at the moment | 21:31 |
| yashgaroth | randal is knee-deep in bad relationship decisions | 21:31 |
| @kanzure | he took down his confession :( | 21:32 |
| yashgaroth | the internet remembers | 21:32 |
| yashgaroth | anyway, something along the lines of how eri would be constantly shirking duties at her latest latch-on to social climb and do interviews | 21:32 |
| yashgaroth | oh crap I forgot there's a bunch of random new diybio people in the channel | 21:35 |
| @kanzure | hahah | 21:35 |
| @kanzure | the truth shall set you free | 21:35 |
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| @kanzure | underscor: welcome back | 22:51 |
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| @kanzure | fenn: any objections to starting to buy parts for the laser cutter? | 23:26 |
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| @kanzure | cyborg advocacy http://www.cyborgfoundation.com/ | 23:35 |
| @kanzure | oh look, they even bothered to post source code (to dropbox, bleh) | 23:37 |
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