| --- Log opened Wed Mar 27 00:00:39 2013 | ||
| -!- InvadersMustDie [~xx@unaffiliated/xx] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 00:13 | |
| kanzure | InvadersMustDie: hello | 00:29 |
|---|---|---|
| cerillio | Btw bryan have you worked on skdb lately? | 00:31 |
| kanzure | no, but i had brownies review it | 00:31 |
| kanzure | i am thinking about separating out some parts into smaller individual components | 00:31 |
| cerillio | Sounds like a plan. Was talking to a german startup about it. They are building an instructables but more construction blue plan focused | 00:33 |
| cerillio | So i might be able to redirect their efforts into skdb | 00:33 |
| kanzure | okay. | 00:34 |
| InvadersMustDie | hey hey kanzure | 00:35 |
| InvadersMustDie | sup ya'll | 00:35 |
| cerillio | Hi invader not much on my way to work | 00:36 |
| InvadersMustDie | coolC: | 00:39 |
| InvadersMustDie | watdya work | 00:39 |
| cerillio | Webdev | 00:40 |
| cerillio | For a financial information service | 00:40 |
| cerillio | And you? | 00:42 |
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| InvadersMustDie | aww they left Q_Q | 00:50 |
| InvadersMustDie | sorry im busy a lil | 00:50 |
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| NilsHitze | re | 00:52 |
| NilsHitze | <- cerillio | 00:52 |
| NilsHitze | but from a real pc ;) | 00:52 |
| kanzure | 00:58 <@ggreer> wow. ralph merkle is a night owl | 01:05 |
| kanzure | 00:58 <@ggreer> still sending emails and it's 1AM | 01:05 |
| kanzure | curious where ralph is emailing these days. cryonet? | 01:05 |
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| kanzure | NilsHitze: yes there are european versions of biocurious | 01:57 |
| kanzure | NilsHitze: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/groups | 01:58 |
| NilsHitze | thx | 02:00 |
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| NilsHitze | wanted to link eugen, but he isn't on G+ | 02:01 |
| kanzure | where are you located? | 02:01 |
| kanzure | ah munich | 02:02 |
| NilsHitze | jupp | 02:03 |
| NilsHitze | A new one is in the making here | 02:03 |
| NilsHitze | Eugen and friends working on it | 02:03 |
| kanzure | if you wait a few moments he will login here | 02:03 |
| kanzure | i have activated the bat signal | 02:03 |
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| NilsHitze | lol | 02:06 |
| NilsHitze | nice one | 02:06 |
| NilsHitze | bad signal | 02:06 |
| kanzure | something like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRyD55qzDg8 | 02:06 |
| * kanzure sleeps | 02:06 | |
| NilsHitze | lol | 02:07 |
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| -!- eleitl [~eugen@beryllium.ativel.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 02:14 | |
| eleitl | howdy ho | 02:14 |
| eleitl | I was told somebody from Munich was in da house | 02:15 |
| NilsHitze | hi eugen | 02:15 |
| eleitl | ohai Nils | 02:16 |
| NilsHitze | yes - i think bryan doesn't know we're already connected via Jabber ;) | 02:16 |
| NilsHitze | i was asked on G+ about BioCurious in Europe | 02:16 |
| eleitl | Yeah, you already know everything what is going on here. | 02:16 |
| NilsHitze | https://plus.google.com/113734287104367465430/posts/aVa6utC9Ld6 | 02:16 |
| eleitl | We do cryo, but we'll be talking about SENS on 4th Apris | 02:16 |
| eleitl | Mate Ravasz is doing some algae work in our lab, but he's only now starting | 02:17 |
| NilsHitze | how far is the lab in martinsried? | 02:17 |
| NilsHitze | and is there a website for it already? | 02:17 |
| NilsHitze | so i can spread the word | 02:17 |
| eleitl | moment, phone | 02:18 |
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| eleitl | the lab is operational, but we're still looking for further funding | 02:22 |
| eleitl | there is no website, deliberately so. | 02:23 |
| eleitl | we want to keep a low profile. tz already found out there's a cryo lab in Munich, and we do not want them to know where it is. | 02:23 |
| NilsHitze | ^^ | 02:24 |
| NilsHitze | why not? | 02:24 |
| eleitl | because they're yellow press, and will make a huge deal out of it, and our incubator will kick us out | 02:25 |
| eleitl | the incubator only wants good press | 02:25 |
| eleitl | do you know how to cash in US cheques with a german bank? | 02:26 |
| eleitl | perhaps paypal would be better | 02:26 |
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| NilsHitze | paypal has it own interesting problems | 02:34 |
| NilsHitze | if they know for what the funding is they might block the account | 02:34 |
| NilsHitze | us cheques in german banks, sorry no | 02:34 |
| eleitl | if you transfer 3 kUSD, how much % would Paypal take? | 02:36 |
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| NilsHitze | gotta check out | 02:47 |
| NilsHitze | 1.9% + 0.35 Cent | 02:48 |
| eleitl | Thanks. | 02:48 |
| NilsHitze | 2290 Euro | 02:48 |
| NilsHitze | roughly | 02:48 |
| NilsHitze | but you will need to account for Currency Exchange | 02:49 |
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| NilsHitze | i think they change the rate on a daily base but i am not 100% sure | 02:49 |
| eleitl | I'll ask my two banks about cashing in US checks | 02:49 |
| NilsHitze | do that and let me know details about the lab | 02:52 |
| eleitl | sure. We're doing fractioning research at the moment. Cracking during vitrification. | 02:53 |
| eleitl | it's pretty hard to get cheap Pt100 sensors which go to -200 C | 02:54 |
| NilsHitze | how much do they cost? | 02:55 |
| eleitl | ~40-70 EUR @ Conrad | 02:56 |
| eleitl | the thermologger is only 190 EUR | 02:56 |
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| eleitl | most Pt100 only do -50, tops -100 | 02:57 |
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| eleitl | I think we'll calibrate -196 C and 0 C, that way we'll get a bit more precision | 02:59 |
| eleitl | but we're only looking at cooling rate, anyway | 02:59 |
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| @fenn | tinkercad lasted all of a year and a half. can't say i'm surprised; this is why i use open source software | 05:57 |
| @fenn | it is interesting that they're looking for FPGA programmers | 05:58 |
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| archels | htop. why wasn't I made aware of this | 06:01 |
| @fenn | because, um, steve jobs | 06:02 |
| @fenn | currently in screen i'm using irssi, alpine, calcurse, htop, upower, and mocp (and bash) | 06:04 |
| @fenn | mocp and htop are pretty good, the rest are meh | 06:04 |
| @fenn | oh, and nano apparently | 06:05 |
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| archels | calcurse looks kinda cute, but not very customisable | 06:26 |
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| @fenn | if you use it make sure to turn on auto save | 06:26 |
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| ParahSailin | wow htop | 08:26 |
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| ParahSailin | ok, htop is kinda ridiculous with 48 cores | 08:29 |
| klafka | hahaha yeah | 08:35 |
| klafka | is that 4x12 ? | 08:35 |
| klafka | opteron? | 08:35 |
| ParahSailin | yeah looks like opteron | 08:42 |
| eleitl | try Xeon Phi | 08:55 |
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| eudoxia | kanzure: i don't suppose you have a copy of tangiblebit.pdf (http://smari.tangiblebit.com/talks/2009/11media/tangiblebit.pdf) | 09:13 |
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| eudoxia | the links in smari's site are so broken omg | 09:29 |
| eudoxia | i keep replacing .is with .com | 09:29 |
| eleitl | smari sounds icelandic | 09:31 |
| eudoxia | >Smári McCarthy is an Icelandic/Irish innovator and information activist. | 09:34 |
| eudoxia | yep | 09:34 |
| eudoxia | >He is also an active member of the digital fabrication movement, having operated a fab lab in Vestmannaeyjar, Iceland,[14] and worked with Fab Labs elsewhere, including Jalalabad, Afghanistan | 09:35 |
| eleitl | the support from 1984.is is Mörður Ingólfsson | 09:35 |
| eleitl | this is funny, because Mörður | 09:35 |
| eudoxia | >09:35 < eleitl> the support from 1984.is is Mörður Ingólfsson | 09:36 |
| eudoxia | kanz fix gnusha's encoding | 09:36 |
| eudoxia | we'll never become transhuman if we can't handle fucking unicode | 09:37 |
| eudoxia | 😸 | 09:38 |
| eleitl | latest report puts peak fossil on 2020 | 09:38 |
| eudoxia | i heard | 09:38 |
| eleitl | chances are, we're fucked | 09:38 |
| eleitl | the latest graph on http://cassandralegacy.blogspot.it/2013/02/the-twilight-of-petroleum.html is also scary | 09:39 |
| eudoxia | I don't expect OSE to change anything since they can't get their shit together | 09:39 |
| ParahSailin | can't get their shit together? | 09:43 |
| eudoxia | literally, every single file is spread in a million separate web services | 09:43 |
| ParahSailin | expect them to change what? | 09:44 |
| eudoxia | the inevitable collapse of industrial civilization because we're out of oil etc etc. | 09:44 |
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| eleitl | might be not inevitable, but we're certainly looking at massive suckage | 09:47 |
| ParahSailin | ah, well i'd be worried more about OSE's actual problems rather than how they manage digital content | 09:47 |
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| eleitl | might be not inevitable, but we're certainly looking at massive suckage | 09:49 |
| eudoxia | ParahSailin: i don't know much about their problems other than what is visible on the wiki, but i want to know, what are their actual problems? | 09:49 |
| eudoxia | they seem pretty okay-funded | 09:49 |
| ParahSailin | yeah, they're pretty good at spending money | 09:50 |
| eleitl | OSE being? | 09:51 |
| eudoxia | eleitl: i guess we'll have to deal with it for a few decades | 09:51 |
| eudoxia | Open Source Ecology | 09:51 |
| eleitl | oic | 09:51 |
| ParahSailin | they're ostensibly trying to prove a profitable business model, yet they're running off donations | 09:51 |
| eleitl | my worry is that almost nobody is getting the fact that there is a huge problem coming our way | 09:52 |
| eudoxia | ParahSailing: on that note, what happened to that project to hire devs to write a new open source CAD program? | 09:52 |
| ParahSailin | i think thats what kanzure is doing | 09:52 |
| eudoxia | i know he worked on his own cad kernel but i don't think that's still going on | 09:52 |
| eudoxia | what do you think OSE should do to prove they can be profitable? start selling LifeTracs? | 09:53 |
| ParahSailin | i dont think the market for lifetracs is gonna be great, they should sell cheese, meat, or some other crop | 09:53 |
| eleitl | do they make energy accounting for their designs? | 09:55 |
| eleitl | it would be interesting to see how small sustainable industry/agriculture unit can be made | 09:56 |
| eudoxia | the machines are designed to work with these plug-and-play PowerCube things so I guess that's a yes | 09:56 |
| eudoxia | http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/PowerCube | 09:57 |
| eleitl | have you seen full powercycle accounting, including embedded energy? | 09:57 |
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| eudoxia | no | 09:58 |
| eleitl | it all looks oil-powered | 09:58 |
| eleitl | apart from biodiesel from oil crops you're still on the fossil teat | 09:59 |
| eudoxia | they are planning to build a solar-thermal | 09:59 |
| eudoxia | but that's not even in the proto stage | 09:59 |
| eleitl | they should look into PV and microhydro | 10:00 |
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| ParahSailin | for a tractor? | 10:00 |
| eudoxia | i think they built the latter if i understand what you mean | 10:00 |
| eleitl | solar thermal is mostly restricted to arid zones | 10:00 |
| ParahSailin | very high capital requirements relative to solar pv | 10:01 |
| eleitl | solar PV is below USD/Wp | 10:01 |
| ParahSailin | inverters at this point are greater cost than the cells | 10:02 |
| eleitl | you can make things work on DC | 10:02 |
| eleitl | this is a farm, they mostly need motors | 10:02 |
| eleitl | hydrogen is another option | 10:03 |
| ParahSailin | dc motors are super expensive to try to run farm equipment off | 10:04 |
| eudoxia | there don't seem to be any rivers near Factor e Farm (909 SW Willow Road Maysville, Missouri) | 10:04 |
| eudoxia | oh scratch that | 10:04 |
| eudoxia | it's a lake but it's something | 10:04 |
| eudoxia | the Maysville Reservoir | 10:05 |
| eudoxia | brb lunch | 10:05 |
| * eleitl opens a beer | 10:06 | |
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| ParahSailin | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergius_process interesting, though the usual conspiracy theories | 10:15 |
| @fenn | let's just make an open source thorium reactor and eb done with it | 10:16 |
| @fenn | ffs it's not that hard | 10:16 |
| eleitl | you can use hydrogen and CO2, latter can be from air | 10:16 |
| eleitl | fenn, show me a working thorium cycle breeder | 10:16 |
| ParahSailin | oak ridge had one in the 50s | 10:17 |
| ParahSailin | sorry, 60s | 10:17 |
| eleitl | no, they didn't. No fuel was bred with the thorium cycle. Look it up. | 10:17 |
| eudoxia | apparently the chinese will build one in 30 years | 10:17 |
| eleitl | MSR would be great as an industrial heat source, if they worked. | 10:17 |
| @fenn | i'm just sick of all the whining about CO2 and peak oil when nobody has even considered the options we already have | 10:18 |
| eleitl | CO2 is not a problem | 10:18 |
| eleitl | in the sense that we can do anything about it | 10:18 |
| eleitl | we can't | 10:18 |
| ParahSailin | the main obstacle to nuclear is political | 10:18 |
| eleitl | the main obstacle is that it doesn't work | 10:18 |
| @fenn | nuclear power works.. | 10:18 |
| @fenn | am i missing something here? | 10:19 |
| eleitl | economically, it doesn't | 10:19 |
| ParahSailin | economically, compared to fossil? | 10:19 |
| @fenn | because of the retarded cost of government oversight | 10:19 |
| ParahSailin | which you are concerned about running out of? | 10:19 |
| eleitl | fossil doesn't work, either. the party is over. | 10:19 |
| ParahSailin | so, there would be some point in time when nuclear would work? | 10:19 |
| @fenn | what do you mean "works" | 10:20 |
| eudoxia | uranium isn't a liquid that can be handled at room temperature and pressure and utilized in an inexpensive, DIY machine | 10:20 |
| eleitl | look at the last graph on http://cassandralegacy.blogspot.it/2013/02/the-twilight-of-petroleum.html | 10:20 |
| eleitl | if nuclear is to work it needs to breed | 10:20 |
| eleitl | working thorium breeders have not been demonstrated | 10:21 |
| ParahSailin | i think there will always be a need for hydrocarbon heat engines, at least using hydrocarbons as intermediate transmission and storage | 10:21 |
| eleitl | you can make hydrocarbons fine if you have energy | 10:21 |
| eudoxia | oil fractionation columns are much cheaper and simpler than uranium gas centrifuges | 10:21 |
| eudoxia | there will never be something quite like oil | 10:21 |
| eleitl | yeah, we burned through most of it in only a century | 10:21 |
| @fenn | what about ... synthetic oil | 10:21 |
| ParahSailin | you get nuclear working, and you can make your oil out of coal | 10:21 |
| eleitl | of course synthetic oil, but you need a source of energy for that | 10:22 |
| eudoxia | ^ | 10:22 |
| ParahSailin | or co2 | 10:22 |
| eleitl | peak fossil 2020, coal included. | 10:22 |
| @fenn | i mean i don't think we should be burning oil in cars or water heaters, but it's good for some things like airplanes and plastics | 10:22 |
| eudoxia | oil is the only thing that literally flows from the ground and can be exploited economically | 10:22 |
| eleitl | do not assume cheap coal will be available | 10:22 |
| ParahSailin | coal will be available until fusion is invented | 10:22 |
| eleitl | not as a source of energy | 10:23 |
| eleitl | if you have energy, you can make organics. you don't need coal. | 10:23 |
| eudoxia | but what if the mining machinery needs oil to run? | 10:23 |
| eleitl | then, we're fucked! | 10:23 |
| ParahSailin | fischer tropsch | 10:23 |
| @fenn | you guys seem far too ready to jump to the "we're fucked" conclusion | 10:23 |
| superkuh | I don't think the breeding part of the MSR is the hard bit. Thorium for the MSRE *was* bread in other fission reactors. | 10:24 |
| eleitl | it only took me a few decades | 10:24 |
| eleitl | the numbers were just getting worse and worse | 10:24 |
| eleitl | this is going to hurt, unfortunately. can't be avoided, at this point. | 10:24 |
| superkuh | Online breeding may be very hard. | 10:24 |
| eleitl | they primed the MSR from the uranium cycle | 10:25 |
| eleitl | they never bred fuel, nor processed fuel. all toy scale. | 10:25 |
| superkuh | Right. But the U-233 was bred from Thorium in other reactors. | 10:25 |
| ParahSailin | so breed it in other reactors | 10:25 |
| eleitl | using uranium cycle neutrons | 10:25 |
| @fenn | eleitl: also your link seems to imply that oil production will be increasing until at least 2035 | 10:25 |
| eleitl | http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-L_lp0BzWamM/UQ4eCC_r6RI/AAAAAAAAHdg/bGYr9h_cUfw/s1600/sunset+of+petroleum_html_781e6bbe.png <-- net energy | 10:26 |
| ParahSailin | the physics works out, there just needs to be investment in the engineering | 10:26 |
| eleitl | there are some assumptions there, but I think these are quite sound | 10:26 |
| eleitl | peak coal might not decay as quickly, though | 10:27 |
| eleitl | no idea, haven't seen the data | 10:27 |
| ParahSailin | you vastly underestimate the amount of coal the states and china have | 10:27 |
| eleitl | the amount doesn't matter, the net energy of it does | 10:27 |
| eudoxia | all mechanized agriculture stops, hundreds of millions die, etc. | 10:28 |
| jrayhawk | uhhh, no, agriculture will be fine | 10:28 |
| eleitl | http://www.bmwi.de/BMWi/Redaktion/PDF/E/energiestatistiken-energiegewinnung-energieverbrauch,property=pdf,bereich=bmwi2012,sprache=de,rwb=true.pdf | 10:28 |
| @fenn | iirc that was supposed to happen in 1990 | 10:28 |
| eleitl | look at the imported anthracite | 10:28 |
| eleitl | "Anteil der Nettoimporte" | 10:28 |
| jrayhawk | cuba already stepped off an oil cliff with the downfall of the soviet union and there was no mass starvation | 10:28 |
| jrayhawk | organic gardens are actually very high-yield | 10:29 |
| eleitl | yes, but US has no clue how to do biodynamic agriculture | 10:29 |
| @fenn | i'm pretty impressed with cuba's agricultural science | 10:29 |
| jrayhawk | the science is improving and we have one hell of a lot more time to adapt. | 10:29 |
| eleitl | a lot of small farmers are in debt | 10:29 |
| * eudoxia mildly convinced sigh of relief | 10:29 | |
| @fenn | they do all kinds of stuff with inoculation and creative fermentation media that nobody in the US would ever even consider | 10:29 |
| ParahSailin | heh, powder river basin sub-butuminous coal is <$10/ton | 10:30 |
| eleitl | germans looked into algae for food production during the war | 10:30 |
| eleitl | apropos germans, did you look at the 11.7% renewable? | 10:31 |
| ParahSailin | cuba had relatively high arable capacity, it just meant switching sugar cane to domestic food | 10:31 |
| eleitl | it's a fucking joke, since 7.1 is biomass, and half of that is not even domestic | 10:31 |
| ParahSailin | i wouldnt expect the us to weather an oil cliff so easily | 10:31 |
| eleitl | sugar cane is c1 crop, so high efficiency | 10:31 |
| eleitl | c4, sorry | 10:32 |
| eudoxia | i wonder if the end of oil imports contributed to the arduous march | 10:32 |
| jrayhawk | Allan Savory and Joel Salatin and whatnot are becoming cult heros in the burgeoning real food movement | 10:32 |
| eleitl | one of the reasons bioethanol works with sugar cane | 10:32 |
| eleitl | I did consider learning algaeculture actually | 10:33 |
| eleitl | it takes a couple years to get a green thumb | 10:33 |
| @fenn | are you talking about growing algae as stuff to burn? | 10:34 |
| @fenn | talk about bad thermodynamics | 10:34 |
| eleitl | no, stuff to eat | 10:34 |
| eudoxia | heh | 10:34 |
| ParahSailin | paging hartmut michel | 10:34 |
| @fenn | okay. yeah people could do with more algae in their diet | 10:35 |
| nmz787 | i've got a back and front yard not doing much | 10:35 |
| nmz787 | i'd like a way to suck up carbon from the air | 10:35 |
| eleitl | stuff to burn is iffy, since you need controlled eutrophication, and strains which can persists against wild type | 10:35 |
| eleitl | I heat with wood, so I can get flue gas for CO2 enrichment | 10:35 |
| eleitl | or methane, cleaner actually | 10:36 |
| nmz787 | CO2 enrichment? | 10:36 |
| eleitl | problem is temperature control, because damn cyanobacteria overheat so easily | 10:36 |
| nmz787 | I want to sequester that shit | 10:36 |
| nmz787 | ahh | 10:36 |
| nmz787 | you mean to pump into the tank | 10:36 |
| eleitl | higher CO2 concentration increases photosynthesis efficiency | 10:36 |
| eleitl | yes | 10:36 |
| eleitl | NOx scrubbing, too | 10:36 |
| eleitl | you can use urine for nitrate and phosphate | 10:36 |
| nmz787 | what about feces? | 10:37 |
| @fenn | just dont tell your customers | 10:37 |
| eudoxia | hahaha | 10:37 |
| ParahSailin | NOx is nitrate | 10:37 |
| eleitl | there are many nitrogen oxides, and you can scrub these with algae | 10:37 |
| chris_99 | NOx isn't really nitrous oxide is it | 10:37 |
| nmz787 | the right way to do it is have the algae release liquid fuel right? | 10:37 |
| ParahSailin | N2O isnt usually considered NOx | 10:38 |
| eleitl | there's N2O NO NO2, N2O4, N2O3 etc. | 10:38 |
| eleitl | NO2 is an anion, so it's NO2- | 10:38 |
| ParahSailin | x is usually 1 or 2, and including dimers thereof | 10:38 |
| chris_99 | mm, N2O is nitrous oxide | 10:38 |
| chris_99 | er NO2 | 10:38 |
| chris_99 | isn't it | 10:38 |
| eleitl | N2O is nitrous | 10:38 |
| eleitl | NO2 will kill you | 10:38 |
| chris_99 | oh yeah, NO2 would be nitrous dioxide? | 10:38 |
| eleitl | NOx are also great as rocket fuel | 10:39 |
| @fenn | nmz787: algae for fuel is a big joke and will never be economically feasible, even with fancy genetic engineering tricks | 10:39 |
| eleitl | better than nitric acid | 10:39 |
| chris_99 | mm i'm making a hybrid rocket using it at the mo' eleitl | 10:39 |
| eleitl | genetic engineering tricks work against you, if wild type kicks your ass | 10:39 |
| eleitl | be very careful, chris_99 | 10:39 |
| ParahSailin | the fastest growing type will always win | 10:39 |
| eleitl | asymmetric dimethylhydrazine? | 10:39 |
| chris_99 | mm, it's only a small one though eleitl | 10:40 |
| eleitl | hypergolic fuels FTW! | 10:40 |
| chris_99 | i was trying to source HTPB for a fuel, but it's kind of difficult to get here, so i may order from China | 10:40 |
| eleitl | asphalt + N2O? | 10:41 |
| eudoxia | be carefully you don't get arrested for conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction | 10:41 |
| eudoxia | careful* | 10:41 |
| chris_99 | heh | 10:41 |
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| chris_99 | it's only really a type of resin though, it's not actually explosive or anything | 10:41 |
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| nmz787 | fenn: why would you say that? a thing that takes air and turns it into fuel isn't without value | 10:43 |
| nmz787 | fenn: ease of use and maintenance and setting up is a factor in long term utility | 10:44 |
| ParahSailin | paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/anie.201200218/pdf | 10:45 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/b14f88282a48bbe4ff893b30820633a0.txt | 10:45 |
| eleitl | you can make methane from water electrolysis hydrogen and CO2 | 10:45 |
| eleitl | Sabatier reaction | 10:46 |
| eleitl | you can make higher hydrocarbons, too | 10:46 |
| eleitl | C1 feedstock for industrial chemistry | 10:46 |
| ParahSailin | paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/anie.201200218/asset/2516_ftp.pdf?v=1&t=hessai5t&s=49ea29387096e9f14e2d7a785f4742814a95e265 | 10:46 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/f4ddf8f1941ef88ddc59a5fc305f3e2b.pdf | 10:46 |
| ParahSailin | ^why not biofuels | 10:46 |
| eleitl | http://pac.iupac.org/publications/pac/pdf/1986/pdf/5806x0825.pdf | 10:46 |
| eleitl | biofuels are tapped out, see HANPP | 10:47 |
| ParahSailin | no, read that as "this is why not biofuels" | 10:47 |
| eleitl | PV has much higher efficiency, anyway | 10:47 |
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| eleitl | besides, people need to eat | 10:47 |
| eleitl | you're competing for crps | 10:47 |
| eleitl | crops | 10:47 |
| ParahSailin | yes, that's pretty much it | 10:48 |
| nmz787 | eleitl: you've mentioned HANPP before, but didn't mention taking adavantage of lands not considered in it currently | 10:48 |
| ParahSailin | do they have electrochemical reduction of CO2 yet? | 10:48 |
| nmz787 | there are plenty of non-crop lands with sunlight | 10:48 |
| eleitl | if you can eutrophicate saline lakes etc, and can survive against wild type, why not | 10:49 |
| eleitl | Salton Sea would be a good test bed | 10:49 |
| nmz787 | actually | 10:49 |
| eleitl | highly alcaline lakes are also good, since only few algae can survive there | 10:49 |
| nmz787 | not much chance of screwing it up more than it already is | 10:49 |
| jrayhawk | thankfully fossil fuel decline will demolish grain agriculture, which will do wonders for healthcare costs | 10:50 |
| eleitl | spirulina takes pH 9..11 | 10:50 |
| eudoxia | yay no more mcdonalds | 10:50 |
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| eleitl | foodlots will probably disappear | 10:50 |
| eleitl | or, you feed them with Soylent Green(tm) | 10:51 |
| jrayhawk | mcdonalds will probably switch to soy buns or something equally tragic | 10:51 |
| ParahSailin | don't be too gleeful about mass starvation | 10:51 |
| jrayhawk | we already went over that | 10:51 |
| @fenn | what do you mean switch | 10:51 |
| eleitl | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorella#History | 10:52 |
| jrayhawk | haha i guess i haven't checked | 10:52 |
| ParahSailin | grain agriculture demolished? | 10:52 |
| @fenn | it's a gradual transition already halfway completed | 10:52 |
| eudoxia | today i had one of those soy burgers for lunch | 10:52 |
| eudoxia | i already hate peak oil :< | 10:52 |
| eudoxia | it didn't even come with fries | 10:52 |
| eleitl | unfermented soy is really not good for people | 10:53 |
| jrayhawk | xenoestrogens build character | 10:54 |
| eleitl | manboobs FTW | 10:54 |
| eleitl | but so does beer | 10:54 |
| nmz787 | jrayhawk: i'm still waiting on that gliadin or legume knockout paper | 10:55 |
| ParahSailin | tofu's probably pretty low in those | 10:55 |
| eleitl | try miso or soy sauce | 10:55 |
| jrayhawk | i was unable to find it and now i am sad | 10:55 |
| eleitl | tofu is not good | 10:55 |
| @fenn | tempeh is the only reasonable soy product | 10:55 |
| nmz787 | jrayhawk: i'm not convinced cutting down rain forest to eat paleo is a good meme, but it came to mind | 10:55 |
| jrayhawk | did you watch that allan savory thing | 10:55 |
| @fenn | (aside from miso/soy sauce but that's not really food) | 10:55 |
| eleitl | never tried tempeh | 10:56 |
| nmz787 | jrayhawk: hmm, no | 10:56 |
| eudoxia | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Tempe_Burger.jpg | 10:56 |
| eudoxia | 9/10 would eat | 10:56 |
| ParahSailin | how much phytoestrogen is left when you dissolve all the proteins, then congeal them with divalent salts? | 10:56 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpTHi7O66pI | 10:56 |
| ParahSailin | phytoestrogen preferentially partitions to the solution phase | 10:57 |
| kanzure | .title | 10:57 |
| yoleaux | Allan Savory: How to green the world's deserts and reverse climate change - YouTube | 10:57 |
| jrayhawk | and pretty much anything from joel salatin | 10:57 |
| eleitl | somebody give me 22:20 min of quality time | 10:58 |
| ParahSailin | joel salatin runs off a lot of grain | 10:58 |
| @fenn | jrayhawk: i watched that and still have no idea how it's supposed to work, what makes the grass grow when there's zero topsoil? | 10:58 |
| kanzure | "Licenses for the top-end ESXi run $1000 - $3500 list per socket." | 10:58 |
| kanzure | the virtualization market is weird | 10:58 |
| @fenn | does he add material to the ground, or just run a bunch of cows on it over and over | 10:59 |
| eleitl | oVirt | 10:59 |
| eleitl | the only ESXi we use is free, or Essentials | 10:59 |
| jrayhawk | Ruminants are distributive bacterial reservoirs and distributors, and compact the soil enough to retain water. | 10:59 |
| jrayhawk | ParahSailin: Yeah, the pasture croppers are more purists about sustainability, but joel is a far more skilled at advocacy | 11:00 |
| jrayhawk | they're doing the same basic things, though | 11:00 |
| jrayhawk | specifically cyclic mob stocking | 11:01 |
| ParahSailin | i've never seen hard numbers on the yields of that | 11:02 |
| eleitl | yields of what? | 11:02 |
| jrayhawk | calories per acre per year | 11:02 |
| eleitl | algae are the big winners for that, no contest | 11:02 |
| eleitl | nothing even comes close | 11:03 |
| jrayhawk | and presumably other nutrition | 11:03 |
| eleitl | for animals, rabbits and chickens are rather efficient | 11:03 |
| ParahSailin | sheep are probably the most efficient | 11:04 |
| eleitl | sheep are also very good at dying | 11:05 |
| eleitl | try goats | 11:05 |
| ParahSailin | goats are too picky | 11:05 |
| jrayhawk | chickens are good at dying, too. i just lost one the other day to a reproductive disaster. | 11:06 |
| ParahSailin | sheep and cows are the ones you can put out on grass and do very little | 11:06 |
| jrayhawk | it was a heritage breed, though, so it was probably more stressed by the coop life than the others. | 11:06 |
| jrayhawk | beh | 11:06 |
| ParahSailin | well, sheep are completely retarded, but it's just a matter of not designing the fencing so that they'll easily kill themselves | 11:06 |
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| ParahSailin | cattle reproduce too slowly to recover quickly from droughts | 11:07 |
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| kanzure | who is mitch at diybio pdx? | 11:10 |
| kanzure | also, here's thomas landrain doing a talk about a biohacking lab or something http://vimeo.com/61800446 | 11:10 |
| kanzure | .title | 11:10 |
| yoleaux | LabEasy DIYBio Salon - Thomas Landrain on Vimeo | 11:10 |
| eleitl | the meeting in France? | 11:11 |
| kanzure | dunno. the europeans really enjoy keeping me out of the loop. | 11:12 |
| * eleitl is innocent | 11:12 | |
| kanzure | nah, i mean they create new private groups all the time and invite nobody | 11:12 |
| nmz787 | goats will eat some pretty gnarly stuff | 11:12 |
| eleitl | that is very retarded, agreed | 11:12 |
| kanzure | i had to fake a swedish name | 11:12 |
| eudoxia | hahahahahha | 11:12 |
| eudoxia | "Anders Sandberg" | 11:13 |
| ParahSailin | goats will eat the weird stuff, but never what you want them to eat, like the fast growing grass | 11:13 |
| eleitl | goats are unproblematic | 11:13 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: really? | 11:13 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: they didn't let you in with bryan? | 11:13 |
| kanzure | it's not that they don't "let me in".. it's that they don't proactively include me when they send out secret emails/groups/etc. | 11:14 |
| eleitl | these are young people, some of them French | 11:14 |
| ParahSailin | citation: https://plus.google.com/photos/108592484668460515128/albums/5838517469299267185?authkey=CITGk5Cfu5DdrQE | 11:14 |
| eleitl | don't be too harsh on them, I doubt they do it on purpose | 11:14 |
| eudoxia | maybe they think you are too busy to be bothered kanz | 11:14 |
| nmz787 | eleitl: are you saying something about french people in general? | 11:14 |
| nmz787 | eudoxia: they clearly don't know him | 11:15 |
| eleitl | the French people don't travel widely in english-speaking communities | 11:15 |
| eudoxia | clearly | 11:15 |
| eleitl | they tend to keep to the Frankosphere | 11:15 |
| nmz787 | Frankenstein | 11:15 |
| eleitl | Frank-N-Furter | 11:15 |
| eleitl | Oups, time to vacate le premises. | 11:16 |
| eleitl | See you l8rs. | 11:16 |
| nmz787 | peas | 11:16 |
| ParahSailin | goats, simply, will fail to thrive if you expect them to only eat grass | 11:17 |
| nmz787 | ah | 11:17 |
| ParahSailin | they are complementary to sheep | 11:18 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003389 | 11:23 |
| paperbot | error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Molecular%20Networks%20of%20Human%20Muscle%20Adaptation%20to%20Exercise%20and%20Age.pdf | 11:23 |
| ParahSailin | solve two problems at once http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/03/15/an-odd-thought-thorium-reactors-would-make-tantalum-and-rare-earths-cheaper/ | 11:23 |
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| kanzure | "A few bucks in equipment can produce perfectly smooth parts through vapor deposition." | 11:30 |
| kanzure | http://blog.reprap.org/2013/02/vapor-treating-abs-rp-parts.html | 11:30 |
| ParahSailin | does anyone have experience with shapeoko? | 11:32 |
| kanzure | yes, randallagordon does | 11:33 |
| kanzure | or skorket if he ever shows up again | 11:33 |
| randallagordon | indeed, what do you need to know, ParahSailin? | 11:34 |
| ParahSailin | could you make nylon gears with one? | 11:34 |
| randallagordon | although, not as much as I'd like despite having had it for nearly a year at this point...apartment living hasn't allowed me to use it much | 11:34 |
| randallagordon | dig around in the 'oko forums and there are a few people toying around with making gears | 11:36 |
| randallagordon | let me see if I can pin down the username of the person I'm thinking of in particular | 11:36 |
| ParahSailin | interesting http://theenergycollective.com/barrybrook/66539/nuclear-ammonia-sustainable-nuclear-renaissance-s-killer-app | 11:44 |
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| ParahSailin | doesnt seem likely that ammonia would be easier to make than a hydrocarbon | 11:46 |
| ParahSailin | otoh, conversion of ammonia to fixed carbon can be done by nitrifiers | 11:49 |
| randallagordon | ParahSailin: jhllt67 is the person I'm thinking of...doesn't look like he's posted much beyond this project though: http://www.shapeoko.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=566 | 11:54 |
| randallagordon | Also, not nylon... | 11:56 |
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| ParahSailin | paperbot: http://eprints.qut.edu.au/54702/3/54702.pdf | 12:09 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/c983410f7dd648a984dbf3e58e19bc94.pdf | 12:09 |
| ParahSailin | paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es803531g | 12:15 |
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| nmz787 | Omission gluten free beer is not that tasty | 13:24 |
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| kanzure | i wonder who has the most surgical metal in their body. | 14:19 |
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| kanzure | ISO 10303 is an impenetrable darkness of acronyms http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/54a5e335082f933b | 15:21 |
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| eudoxia | sacred mother of god what the christ | 15:23 |
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| kanzure | eudoxia: it's because storing source code and schematics to a fighter jet is not easy. | 15:33 |
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| kanzure | http://shapesmith.net/2013/03/06/ProgressUpdate.html | 16:58 |
| kanzure | this is that guy that did some opencascade-on-a-server-in-erlang and then some webgl things in client browsers | 16:59 |
| kanzure | "The second goal can only be achieved by running the solid modelling in the browser. Independant of goal 1, this could potentially be done by porting a C/C++ library to JS using EMScripten. But this conflicts with the first goal. Is there a Javascript solid modelling library? The closest that might fits the bill I'm aware of is Plasm.js, a JS port of Plasm. This doesn't appear support boolean operations at present." | 16:59 |
| kanzure | "s a result I've been working on a Javascript discrete solid modeller (not continuous BRep). Discrete as in mesh-based, similar to a bitmap versus a vector image. This doesn't mean the definition of models will be mesh-based, but the result will be. This fits the goal of being a tool for 3D printing - which mainly requires STL export." | 16:59 |
| kanzure | hmm. maybe implicitcad.hs can be llvmed->emscriptened->js. that might be worthwhile. | 17:00 |
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| juri_ | neat. | 17:33 |
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| kanzure | 18:37 < brucem> I think we have evolved a fast flying breed of mosquito here by killing all of the slow ones. | 18:38 |
| kanzure | i wonder about laser-immune/avoidant mosquitos. | 18:38 |
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| kanzure | yashgaroth: sup | 19:03 |
| yashgaroth | yo | 19:03 |
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| Swordsman | working on STM stuff right now | 20:42 |
| Swordsman | also looking into lipid bilayers and cell membranes and things like that | 20:42 |
| Swordsman | and graphene sheets | 20:42 |
| Swordsman | I have some ideas in mind, but for each one, there're some details I'm wondering about | 20:45 |
| Swordsman | for I'm not sure if I want to mess with bacteria or any other sorts of microbes, since I wouldn't want to accidentally create some environment potentially leading to bizarre genetic mutations | 20:49 |
| kanzure | the bacteria in your gut are already mutating | 20:50 |
| kanzure | get over it | 20:50 |
| Swordsman | so I'm thinking, if I just put together some liposomes, is there a way that I might be able to embed structures in it's membrane that would allow it to anchor itself to another liposome? | 20:50 |
| Swordsman | well, yeah, I get that | 20:51 |
| Swordsman | I kinda figure that they're pretty good at doing it on their own, I just don't want to get in over my head while I'm dealing with unfamiliar territory | 20:52 |
| yashgaroth | sure you can use transmembrane proteins for that | 20:52 |
| Swordsman | yeah I was looking at those, I'm not sure what type would be good though | 20:52 |
| Swordsman | I was looking through various proteins earlier this morning, and anthrax came up | 20:52 |
| Juul | Swordsman, maybe look at the mechanism S. Cerevisiae uses for flocculation | 20:52 |
| yashgaroth | depends how complex-ly you want to arrange the liposomes | 20:53 |
| Swordsman | and I thought, "...eh, maybe I should be careful about creating artificial linkage structures in cell membranes" | 20:53 |
| yashgaroth | oh wait complexly is a real word | 20:53 |
| yashgaroth | believe me you will not accidentally create a supervirus | 20:53 |
| kanzure | especially not out of a bacteria | 20:54 |
| yashgaroth | or superbacteria, whatevs | 20:54 |
| Swordsman | well, I kinda wanna go with an entirely synthetic route anyway | 20:54 |
| yashgaroth | well good luck with that, cuz proteins are super hard to synthesize, and transmembrane ones are practically impossible | 20:55 |
| Swordsman | that is, I don't want to have to rely on anything too specialized | 20:56 |
| Swordsman | if it's something common, that anybody could find, anywhere on the planet, that's fine | 20:56 |
| Swordsman | I'm trying to come up with a formula that anyone can use, basically | 20:56 |
| Swordsman | if it's cells from the human body, that works too | 20:57 |
| Swordsman | I dunno | 20:57 |
| kanzure | i have a feeling you know little about human cell cultures | 20:57 |
| kanzure | sorry. | 20:57 |
| yashgaroth | well I've no idea what you're trying to do so I can't go ahead and recommend a protein or anything | 20:57 |
| Swordsman | I just figure it's pretty easy to make a monolayer and then form it into liposomes | 20:57 |
| Swordsman | kanzure, you're correct | 20:57 |
| Swordsman | I'm just using it as an example | 20:57 |
| yashgaroth | not liposomes of a reliable size | 20:57 |
| Swordsman | yeah, you could filter them though | 20:58 |
| yashgaroth | not reeeeally | 20:58 |
| kanzure | btw biology is all about specializing. | 20:58 |
| Swordsman | why not? | 20:58 |
| yashgaroth | well you're gonna shear them apart during filtration, or squish them together | 20:59 |
| yashgaroth | you could use an ultracentrifuge but that's not exactly 'anyone on the planet' or whatever | 20:59 |
| Swordsman | well, I'm not trying to look too deep into biology, I'm just thinking that I might be able to make use of the same methods it uses for a few steps in my process | 20:59 |
| yashgaroth | the road to disappointment is paved with people who don't want to look too deep into biology | 21:00 |
| Swordsman | specifically, I just need to be able to pack a payload into a bubble of a specific size, and then anchor a bunch of said bubbles together into a grid / mesh sort of structure | 21:00 |
| Swordsman | well, I'm not saying I never will, I'm just saying that's not what I'm looking at right at this moment | 21:01 |
| yashgaroth | well if you want an organized structure you won't have much luck; maybe a monolayer | 21:01 |
| Swordsman | I am interested, but I already have enough difficulty not getting distracted by al the amazing things I could be learning about | 21:01 |
| Swordsman | monolayers are where I started | 21:03 |
| Swordsman | well, on this | 21:03 |
| kanzure | < yashgaroth> the road to disappointment is paved with people who don't want to look too deep into biology | 21:04 |
| kanzure | what an excitingly gruesome road | 21:04 |
| yashgaroth | heh | 21:07 |
| yashgaroth | so yeah you can get a monolayer, but then the liposomes might just decide to fuse together because liposomes | 21:08 |
| Swordsman | right now i want to learn more about chemistry, so I can better anticipate mechanisms in biology later on | 21:08 |
| Swordsman | yeahhhhh | 21:09 |
| yashgaroth | chem's always good | 21:09 |
| Swordsman | but cells, like those in the human body, don't do that, right? | 21:09 |
| yashgaroth | no, because they have structural proteins inside and outside to prevent it | 21:10 |
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| Swordsman | I'm aware of... dynamin, clathrin... | 21:11 |
| Swordsman | I just started looking into this though | 21:11 |
| yashgaroth | well those have the opposite function, but you get the idea | 21:12 |
| Swordsman | I've only seen things so far that induce bending and breakage of membranes rather than keeping them together | 21:12 |
| Swordsman | is it more like the cytoskeleton, or what | 21:12 |
| yashgaroth | pretty much | 21:12 |
| Swordsman | so, the cytoskeleton then? | 21:12 |
| yashgaroth | not entirely, but that's a big part of it | 21:13 |
| Swordsman | I was kinda thinking I might have to work on that | 21:13 |
| kanzure | 21 TB for $200/mo http://www.hetzner.de/hosting/produkte_rootserver/xs13 | 21:13 |
| Swordsman | could I just like, maybe, take some common organism, hollow out it's inside, and stuff things in there? | 21:14 |
| yashgaroth | gonna go with 'not really' again | 21:14 |
| Swordsman | for transport? it should be a rather quick reaction | 21:15 |
| Swordsman | :/ | 21:15 |
| kanzure | biology works a lot better if you base your understanding on actual biology | 21:16 |
| yashgaroth | wait how do you mean quick? if you just need them to form a monolayer and then do something, you might be okay, unless you need anything above 90% monomeric liposomes | 21:16 |
| Swordsman | what if I just made a fullerene shell and suspended it in a noble gas or a vacuum and forgot about the liposomes | 21:16 |
| Swordsman | I'm guessingthe whole reaction should be less than an hour, maybe less than 10 minutes | 21:17 |
| kanzure | also be prepared for how tedious and failure-prone biology is. | 21:17 |
| Swordsman | if I can just pack my stuff into these little bubbles and then twist them around in an intelligent way, that's all that needs to be done | 21:17 |
| yashgaroth | don't forget expensive | 21:17 |
| yashgaroth | well if you're making a circuit, it had better be super-redundant or you're just die of frustration | 21:18 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: my sis was asking me the other day about her "career options" in biology. i just laughed. | 21:18 |
| yashgaroth | pffft | 21:18 |
| brownies | isn't the career option... "biologist" | 21:18 |
| yashgaroth | oh there's a hundred names that mean the same thing | 21:19 |
| Swordsman | you over here, hold hands with this guy, now just keep hanging on while everything gets shifted around, and now grab on here, now let go of your first connection and now hold on while everything shifts again | 21:19 |
| Swordsman | that needs to be done twice, maybe even just once | 21:19 |
| yashgaroth | in 10-20 years when synthetic biology becomes more than 1% science and 99% speculation, maybe | 21:20 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: what would you say the standard failure rate is of, say, basic pcr for, uh, primer amplification? | 21:20 |
| kanzure | my experience has been at least 10% | 21:21 |
| yashgaroth | oh man well if you've got a highly-purified sample and top of the line reagents, maybe 90% | 21:21 |
| kanzure | but i was doing some really weird things | 21:21 |
| kanzure | 90% failure ? | 21:21 |
| Swordsman | yashgaroth, it is super redundant | 21:21 |
| yashgaroth | but since that never happens, like yeah about 10% | 21:21 |
| Swordsman | I already thought about that | 21:21 |
| yashgaroth | oh no, success, in absolutely ideal conditions | 21:21 |
| kanzure | that was the opposite of what i ... what? | 21:21 |
| Swordsman | I've been doing software design for like, almost 20 years now | 21:21 |
| kanzure | anyway, alright | 21:22 |
| kanzure | Swordsman: read these books http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/books | 21:22 |
| Swordsman | I have the conceptual structure down, I just don't know chemistry well enough yet | 21:22 |
| Swordsman | or bio | 21:22 |
| yashgaroth | nah but when you've got a tissue sample or something, or a complex environmental sample...a few % success at best | 21:22 |
| kanzure | Swordsman: biology is not like software at all. don't let anyone tell you otherwise. | 21:22 |
| Swordsman | heh, yeah, I realize that :) | 21:22 |
| Swordsman | software is nice and discrete | 21:23 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: maybe biologists hate computers because they assume computers are like biology. | 21:23 |
| Swordsman | well defined | 21:23 |
| yashgaroth | I think it's because they feel deep regret about going into biology instead of CS...but maybe that's just me | 21:23 |
| kanzure | no, you are not a normal biologist | 21:23 |
| Swordsman | whereas chem and bio are like... "herding cats" comes to mind, but it's seeming more to me now almost like, trying to convince bubbles to dance rather than just slamming around | 21:24 |
| yashgaroth | there's also my old point about 'well I spent 15 years in grad school learning bio, why me a biologist learn computer' | 21:24 |
| kanzure | Swordsman: stop with the analogies, you are hurting my brain feelers. | 21:25 |
| Juul | analogies are like pan galactic gargle blasters, in that they hurt people's brain feelers | 21:25 |
| kanzure | also, if you are adverse to reading the books available on http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/books then i suggest taking a class at your nearest community college, preferably one on laboratory techniques in biology. | 21:25 |
| kanzure | since it's a lab class, you can just skip the labs you hate and not care about your score | 21:26 |
| Swordsman | hmm, alright. thanks | 21:27 |
| brownies | alternately, perhaps you could buy a bunch of cats and herd them around town for a while, let us know how that goes | 21:27 |
| Swordsman | I said the metaphor came to mind, I also said that the bubble thing seemed more accurate | 21:28 |
| Swordsman | I'm thinking more about chem at this stage of learning though | 21:28 |
| kanzure | that's called biochemistry | 21:29 |
| Swordsman | I spent a lot of time writing particle systems, so it's not too hard for me to picture | 21:29 |
| kanzure | let me guess, particle fountains | 21:29 |
| kanzure | and you sleep with the red book under your pillow | 21:30 |
| Swordsman | a lot of the things I read about make me think "oh yeah, there was that one bug that one time that made that happen" | 21:30 |
| Swordsman | I haven't read it, really | 21:30 |
| Swordsman | I just grab the pieces I need for whatever I'm doing | 21:30 |
| Swordsman | I've gotten pretty good at it over the years | 21:31 |
| Swordsman | it works better with software though, since the feedback is both immediate and complete | 21:32 |
| Swordsman | which is why I've avoided chem/bio until now | 21:32 |
| kanzure | did you at least read the opengl spec | 21:32 |
| Swordsman | I've read some of it, yeah | 21:32 |
| kanzure | otherwise i was gnona kickban you as unhelpable | 21:33 |
| Swordsman | like, 30% to 50% | 21:33 |
| kanzure | or incurable | 21:33 |
| Swordsman | I did read 100% of the original tcp/ip rfc though | 21:33 |
| kanzure | 20 years without reading the full opengl spec. and just "grabbing the pieces". ugh. so, in biology, you really do need to read. you should be reading your specs anyway.. | 21:33 |
| Swordsman | I'm 26, I started when I was 7 | 21:34 |
| kanzure | so what. i'm 23. | 21:34 |
| Swordsman | so | 21:34 |
| brownies | amateurs | 21:34 |
| brownies | i started in a past life | 21:34 |
| Swordsman | yeah, I dunno. heh. I guess i just figure older people might have had more free time on their hands? I guess it's a dumb argument | 21:35 |
| kanzure | yes, it's very dumb, because soon you get old and then the age thing stops being impressive | 21:35 |
| kanzure | i'm lucky that everyone i know still thinks i'm <20 | 21:35 |
| kanzure | maybe one day they will figure out that i also age | 21:35 |
| Swordsman | most of the guys I talk to are in their 30s and 40s, I just figure they know stuff because they've been around, is what I mean | 21:36 |
| kanzure | ah. well in here we know things because that's our job. | 21:36 |
| Swordsman | the guys I talk to and learn from in regards to code and learning etc. | 21:36 |
| Swordsman | I mean | 21:36 |
| Swordsman | anyway | 21:37 |
| Swordsman | I work on a lot of stuff | 21:37 |
| Swordsman | I try not to read any more than I need to on any one subject beyond what i what have to read in order to fully understand it because it cuts into the time I would be spending doing the same with some other topic | 21:38 |
| Swordsman | but *anyway* | 21:38 |
| Swordsman | so I was messing around with graphene sheets today, just to see if I'd get any results with scothc tape and pencil lead | 21:40 |
| Swordsman | so I guess a chunk of pyrolytic graphite will levitate over a strong magnet, and you can direct it's movement with lasers and whatnot | 21:41 |
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| Lemminkainen | da | 21:42 |
| kanzure | welcome | 21:42 |
| Lemminkainen | how's nanoengineer.py coming along? | 21:43 |
| Swordsman | I decided to find a really big pencil, cut off all the wood encasing it, polish it up, and then toss it on top of a magnet, since I figured that it might have enough inconsistences that it might still show a bit of diamagnetism | 21:44 |
| kanzure | Lemminkainen: needs to be split up into separate packages | 21:44 |
| kanzure | Lemminkainen: also more unit tests need to be written | 21:44 |
| Swordsman | Er, inconsistencies. Anyway, it did seem to hover just a bit, just enough to be able to blow on it and have it spin around as if it were floating on a fluid surface | 21:45 |
| kanzure | Lemminkainen: in the mean time you can be amused by https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer#readme i guess, unless you want to submit patches | 21:46 |
| Swordsman | I only had 3 magnets that were fairly strong though, and they were attached to eachother on a surface | 21:47 |
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| Swordsman | what I found weird was that if I laid the graphite out in the middle magnet, and blew on it, it would be attracted to an alignment with the other two magnets on the side | 21:49 |
| Swordsman | I'm guessing there's some obvious explanation I haven't realized yet | 21:50 |
| Lemminkainen | Swordsman did you coat the graphite in pigs' blood first? | 21:50 |
| Swordsman | like if I were to picture the magnetic field lines entirely, or something | 21:50 |
| Lemminkainen | you need to add some iron to it | 21:50 |
| Lemminkainen | kanzure I'll look into open issues with nanoengineer in about a month; I'm currently building some APIs and game engines that I want to finish first | 21:51 |
| Swordsman | but if it's diamagnetic, and all them magnets have the same polarity, then I would've expected the graphite to be repelled from the outer two magnets rather than being attraced to them | 21:51 |
| kanzure | carbon is not magnetic, unless you have ferrocarbon | 21:51 |
| Swordsman | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene#Electronic_properties | 21:51 |
| Swordsman | it's actually a superconductor, in the right arrangment | 21:52 |
| Lemminkainen | graphite != graphene | 21:52 |
| Swordsman | I said I had a big chunk of graphite | 21:52 |
| Swordsman | I also said it probably had impurities due to manufacturing and whatnot | 21:53 |
| Lemminkainen | so you're hoping for those impurities to be graphene? | 21:53 |
| Swordsman | which is what gives pyrolytic graphite it's properties | 21:54 |
| Swordsman | yes. in fact, graphite in itself wouldn't have any magnetic properties | 21:54 |
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| Swordsman | pyrolytic graphite is graphite which goes through a sries of heating and coling procsses which produces a small amount of graphene within the larger graphite structure | 21:55 |
| Swordsman | and the pencil graphite I used earlier did in fact hover, if only slightly | 21:55 |
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| Swordsman | consider how many carbon atoms are in a block of graphite | 21:56 |
| Swordsman | now, do you really think that there aren't going to be a few graphene sections in there, if it's just some graphite that just got lumped together in some pencil factory? | 21:58 |
| Swordsman | assuming that it's almost entirely carbon, and the nobody cared to check that all of the carbon was linked up in a fully tetrahedral structure, you're going to have some graphene in there | 21:59 |
| Swordsman | and sure enough, there is | 21:59 |
| Swordsman | the way it behaved was really weird though, which is what I was asking about | 22:00 |
| Lemminkainen | aight well if you're relying on unmeasurable and unpredictable impurities in a substance to give rise to a predictable motion, you silly | 22:01 |
| Lemminkainen | best you can do is test with more samples and find the pattern | 22:01 |
| Swordsman | yeah | 22:03 |
| Swordsman | I spent about 5 hours eariler today messing with it in different ways | 22:03 |
| Swordsman | I was really surprised that I got any response out of it at all | 22:03 |
| Swordsman | like, even that tiny bit of graphene, is just enough to create a tiny gap between it and the surfrace beneath it | 22:04 |
| Swordsman | I think the problem is that I have 3 magnets locked together (I'm just working with stuff I have lying around right now) | 22:05 |
| Swordsman | I was just wondering if you guys might have an idea of why this was happening | 22:07 |
| Lemminkainen | draw me a picture of your set up and I'll take a better whack at an explanation | 22:07 |
| Swordsman | I was also thinking that maybe the individual sections of graphene were cancelling eachother out diamagnetically, and... somehow becoming ferromagnetic, in response to prolonged exposure to a steady magnetic field that it couldn't escape due to gravity, though the idea seems ridiculous to me | 22:09 |
| Swordsman | [ . ' . ] <--- the arrangement of the magnets | 22:10 |
| Swordsman | and then, the graphite stick is the same length, pretty much | 22:10 |
| Swordsman | I place it over the middle magnet, and blow on it, and it spins around, eventually bouncing around and into an alignment where it covers all three magnets | 22:12 |
| Swordsman | I also found that if I took shavings and put them on thin pieces of papers, and then passed them over the magnets, the shavings would react in this weird way | 22:13 |
| Swordsman | only some of them would react, and it was kinda hard to see | 22:14 |
| Swordsman | like, the fragments jumped together and then stopped reacted | 22:15 |
| Swordsman | er, reacting | 22:15 |
| Swordsman | like, if you passed a magnetic current through, they tried to find a way to not be magnetic | 22:16 |
| Swordsman | I could just run the magnet underneath, and I'd get these lines, bbut then they just stopped after a while | 22:16 |
| Swordsman | I suppose I'd have to record it in action to really see what's happening, my eyes aren't fast enough | 22:18 |
| kanzure | http://pdf.multics.org/Propaganda/_werc/smak/prev//Plan_9_Movie_Poster.png | 22:20 |
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| kanzure | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5449328 "It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Technology management has given up on the idea that code can actually be read, so it's write-once. Reading Code is that ghetto where you put untalented people you want to fire, or young/new people you don't know what to do with yet. Otherwise, the idea that people can actually read code has been given up on. That, of course, generates a class of programmers who ... | 22:34 |
| kanzure | ... never improve and write terrible (illegible) code. If your attitude is that reading code is a lost cause, you'll create a bunch of shitty, illegible code. People forget that outside of the corporate world, there actually is code that people (a) enjoy reading, and (b) write with the intention of making it comprehensible." | 22:34 |
| kanzure | hah https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5451035 "All those "business people" should work for the companies talent, not the other way around." | 22:34 |
| kanzure | i think github might work like that | 22:34 |
| Lemminkainen | github has a nice structure, but I hate their engineers | 22:36 |
| Lemminkainen | you meet them and all they ever fucking talk about is how flat their corporate structure is | 22:36 |
| kanzure | i keep sending them bug reports, but i don't think they believe me | 22:37 |
| kanzure | once they were like "OK, but send us a youtube video." | 22:37 |
| kanzure | fuck that | 22:37 |
| kanzure | was considering sending them a rickroll instead | 22:37 |
| Swordsman | just send them a whole rick astley | 22:43 |
| Swordsman | ...I wonder if anyone has actually done that, now that I think about it | 22:44 |
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| kanzure | haproxy has a very strange default config file packaged in the .deb | 23:20 |
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| kanzure | "agent aborted loading ilwifi" appears in my "waiting for /dev" bootup sequence. any ideas? | 23:30 |
| kanzure | damn https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=827164 | 23:32 |
| BioGuy | Bah! gedit is horrible for loading logs | 23:34 |
| kanzure | don't use gedit. | 23:35 |
| kanzure | you can use head -n or tail -n if you want to read only a particular part of a log | 23:36 |
| brownies | i think the packaged version of haproxy is rather old | 23:37 |
| kanzure | debian has 1.4.8-1 in squeeze and wheezy i think | 23:40 |
| kanzure | which seems to be from 2012-08-14 | 23:40 |
| BioGuy | kanzure thanks for showing me this log for irc logs https://pypi.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=search&term=irc+log&submit=search | 23:40 |
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| BioGuy | The other day I thought paperbot was really cool, and want to tell other people about it - but wasn't sure if your concerned about word getting out about it and potentially having to deal with copyright problems. | 23:42 |
| kanzure | how many people? | 23:42 |
| kanzure | 100k, i can't deal with that sort of load on paperbot | 23:42 |
| kanzure | or, rather, i wouldn't want to | 23:43 |
| BioGuy | right now theres about 28 people in our DIYBio meetup and figured people would love it for getting stuff out from behind paywalls - but I don't want to tell too many people and then potentially screwing you over by accident. | 23:44 |
| kanzure | paperbot is primarily for hplusroadmap/diybio/irc activity. you can tell them about it. it's here to help us. | 23:45 |
| BioGuy | I would feel really bad if I got you into any copyright legal issues. | 23:45 |
| kanzure | you can pay a small fee to pdx.edu since you're in the area and get access | 23:46 |
| kanzure | also, if you're really paranoid, you can help improve https://github.com/kanzure/pdfparanoia which is used by paperbot to remove homing beacons inside pdfs | 23:47 |
| BioGuy | Is it hosted at PSU? | 23:48 |
| BioGuy | ...or just suggesting that for library access? | 23:49 |
| kanzure | hey could you call me? 512-203-0507 | 23:49 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Mar 28 00:00:40 2013 | ||
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