| --- Log opened Fri May 24 00:00:35 2013 | ||
| -!- kmo [122@d30-138.icpnet.pl] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 00:00 | |
| -!- kmo [122@d30-138.icpnet.pl] has quit [Changing host] | 00:00 | |
| -!- kmo [122@unaffiliated/kmo] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 00:00 | |
| -!- kmo is now known as kajetan | 00:07 | |
| -!- klafka_ [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 00:31 | |
| -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 00:31 | |
| -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 00:36 | |
| -!- superkuh [~superkuh@unaffiliated/superkuh] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 01:17 | |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 01:51 | |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 02:01 | |
| -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] | 02:05 | |
| -!- joshcryer [~g@unaffiliated/joshcryer] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 02:10 | |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 03:11 | |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 03:14 | |
| -!- oblique [~oblique@unaffiliated/oblique] has quit [Quit: leaving] | 03:45 | |
| -!- oblique [~oblique@unaffiliated/oblique] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 03:47 | |
| -!- ielo [~ielo@cpc9-addl4-2-0-cust229.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 04:43 | |
| -!- ielo [~ielo@cpc9-addl4-2-0-cust229.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] | 04:51 | |
| -!- FooQuuxman [~test@c-98-215-254-55.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 05:12 | |
| -!- wizrobe [~userdi@c-76-23-254-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 05:52 | |
| -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-128.flip.co.nz] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 06:50 | |
| -!- kajetan [122@unaffiliated/kmo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 06:59 | |
| -!- Guest84269 [~quassel@74.63.212.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 07:23 | |
| -!- Charlie [~quassel@74.63.212.44] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 07:26 | |
| -!- ryankarason [~rak@cpe-76-189-227-224.neo.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 07:41 | |
| rigel | http://qz.com/86685/the-audacious-plan-to-end-hunger-with-3-d-printed-food/ proof that these days all you need to do is add a noun or verb to "3-d printing" and people will jump all over it as the best thing since sliced bread | 08:17 |
|---|---|---|
| -!- klafka [~klafka@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 08:18 | |
| brownies | i think you mean 3-d printed bread | 08:23 |
| kanzure | delicious | 08:31 |
| -!- a3nm [~a3nm@2001:41d0:8:3bb::1] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 08:32 | |
| a3nm | paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgt.v6:2/issuetoc | 08:32 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/e1ef2054be6aa3ff0bc024769dc08ffd.txt | 08:32 |
| a3nm | hm, so why isn't it using https://github.com/zotero/translators/blob/master/Wiley%20Online%20Library.js ? | 08:32 |
| a3nm | paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jgt.3190060206/pdf | 08:35 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/5fd6302fe3e4a50fb475e3f685743e6b.txt | 08:35 |
| kanzure | probably because of access this time | 08:35 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: 07:15 <archels> also searching on diyhpl.us/wiki ends up redirecting to https and prompts for a username/password | 08:37 |
| a3nm | kanzure: interestingly, fetching this last page on an authorized IP gives a PDF | 08:38 |
| a3nm | or rather what I suspect is an HTML document redirecting to a PDF | 08:38 |
| kanzure | well, paperbot is probably not authorized. paperbot is not omnipotent. | 08:39 |
| a3nm | on my install, the zotero proxy does not try to use the translator, and dierctly fetching the page even through an authorized IP gives an html page | 08:39 |
| kanzure | it's entirely possible that there's a bug in paperbot | 08:39 |
| kanzure | please feel free to debug | 08:39 |
| kanzure | i am lonely and would appreciate someone else poking at the code :( | 08:40 |
| a3nm | oh, I understand what's going on | 08:40 |
| a3nm | direct download through an authorized IP gives an HTML page that redirects to a PDF | 08:40 |
| kanzure | zotero translation-server does not presently support "meta" redirects | 08:40 |
| a3nm | that's not even the translation-server | 08:40 |
| kanzure | and paperbot most certainly does not. | 08:40 |
| a3nm | that's just paperbot trying to download the URL directly | 08:41 |
| a3nm | yeah | 08:41 |
| a3nm | I'm not even sure this is a meta redirect, it might even be a js redirect for what I know | 08:41 |
| kanzure | well http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/5fd6302fe3e4a50fb475e3f685743e6b.txt indicates <p class="accessDeniedMessage"> | 08:41 |
| a3nm | ok | 08:42 |
| a3nm | the html that I get from my authorized IP actually contains an iframe with the pdf | 08:42 |
| a3nm | so it's not really a redirect | 08:43 |
| a3nm | hmm | 08:43 |
| a3nm | ok so in this specific case the way to go would perhaps be wget --page-requisites | 08:44 |
| a3nm | but in the more general case where it could be any form of redirect including JS, do you happen to know of a way to run a headless browser and follow any kind of redirects/iframes/etc. ? | 08:44 |
| a3nm | (hm, wget does not include iframes in --page-requisites...) | 08:45 |
| kanzure | zotero translation-server could be updated to follow redirects with a few lines of well-placed javascript (ask simonster) | 08:46 |
| kanzure | but my go-to tool for this sort of job is phantomjs http://phantomjs.org/ | 08:47 |
| kanzure | phantomjs is a headless (no xserver required) framework around webkit that you control by writing piles of terrible javascript | 08:47 |
| a3nm | kanzure: there is no need for zotero translation-server to follow redirects for this specific case | 08:48 |
| a3nm | but phantomjs looks like the right kind of thing to use | 08:48 |
| a3nm | I would just need to figure out how to get the pdf with it | 08:49 |
| kanzure | translation-server is using a headless gecko engine thing.. sort of. i've always been a little confused about why not all of the features are available. | 08:49 |
| a3nm | yeah, but here the only need is to download the actual pdf, not extract a fancy location for the pdf | 08:49 |
| kanzure | welp if you have any phantomjs questions either ask me or ask in #phantomjs (i became op today, not sure if happy or sad) | 08:49 |
| a3nm | ahah :) | 08:50 |
| brownies | kanzure: i do find it slightly hilarious that your goto tool for following redirects is still phantomjs ;) | 08:51 |
| kanzure | you know.. now that i think about it.. this is very hilarious. | 08:52 |
| kanzure | but it's a javascript redirect | 08:52 |
| kanzure | doesn't count. it's only http 3xx redirects that it chokes on. | 08:52 |
| a3nm | (in this specific case it's not a js redirect, it's an iframe) | 08:52 |
| kanzure | oh, well, i would know that if i had any ability to read | 08:53 |
| kanzure | but yes phantomjs has an iframe api | 08:53 |
| a3nm | (i was just asking for the more general case of js redirects) | 08:53 |
| kanzure | you could also write an add-on to paperbot to use lxml to find which url the iframe is pointing to | 08:53 |
| a3nm | yes | 08:53 |
| a3nm | or beautifulsoup | 08:53 |
| kanzure | well, beautifulsoup is based on regular expressions, so no i wouldn't recommend that. | 08:54 |
| a3nm | oh? | 08:54 |
| a3nm | wouldn't lxml choke on crappy markup? | 08:54 |
| kanzure | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~leonardr/beautifulsoup/bs4/view/head:/bs4/element.py#L476 | 08:54 |
| kanzure | lxml doesn't choke anymore. | 08:54 |
| a3nm | ah | 08:54 |
| a3nm | alright | 08:54 |
| kanzure | oh weird the line numbering has changed (i guess it was updated in the last 8 months) | 08:55 |
| kanzure | http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~leonardr/beautifulsoup/bs4/view/head:/bs4/element.py#L554 | 08:55 |
| a3nm | but conversely this would not be able to follow js redirects, if there were any | 08:55 |
| a3nm | so the Right Thing would be to use phantomjs or something like this to handle any possible redirects | 08:55 |
| kanzure | sure. | 08:55 |
| a3nm | then fetch the page and look for iframes (and maybe other stuff?) | 08:55 |
| kanzure | the right thing to do would be to port zotero translators to phantomjs without repeating all of the work, but i haven't figured out how to do this magic yet. | 08:56 |
| a3nm | ah, yes | 08:56 |
| kanzure | it would probably involve rewriting all the translators.. which isn't something i particularly want to sign up for. | 08:56 |
| a3nm | :/ | 08:56 |
| a3nm | yeah ideally you would want to avoid that | 08:56 |
| kanzure | btw this instance of paperbot is using translators that are probably a few months out of date | 08:57 |
| a3nm | phantomjs has the nice advantage of having proxy support, though, in addition to being a lot lighter than zotero etc. | 08:57 |
| kanzure | be advised that phantomjs is JavaScriptCore and not v8. anywhere. | 08:58 |
| a3nm | what does this imply? | 08:58 |
| kanzure | so you don't have things like Function.prototype.bind, or array buffers or w/e. | 08:58 |
| a3nm | hm | 08:59 |
| kanzure | it means you write in a slightly older version of javascript than what you're accustomed to if you are writing javascript daily for node (v8) | 08:59 |
| a3nm | (i have no knowledge of JS...) | 08:59 |
| kanzure | ah then welcome to my hell | 08:59 |
| kanzure | i highly recommend writing unit tests for whatever you do in phantomjs because otherwise it will implode on you | 09:01 |
| kanzure | it turns out there was no testing library so i had to fucking write one | 09:01 |
| a3nm | ok, so when downloaded stuff isn't a pdf, try to use lxml to locate an iframe with a URL to a pdf, and if found download it | 09:01 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/phantomjs-test-provisions | 09:01 |
| a3nm | i will implement this Someday | 09:02 |
| kanzure | there are some example python things in paperbot that do similar tasks-- yes. but that part of paperbot is really hairy, you should feel free to delete it or rewrite it. | 09:02 |
| a3nm | bah | 09:02 |
| a3nm | if it works, i won't touch it with an N-foot pole | 09:02 |
| kanzure | it's just a bunch of if/then statements, really low quality code | 09:03 |
| a3nm | i should also clean things up and do a pull request if more people use my paperbot instance | 09:03 |
| kanzure | no idea why i wrote it like that | 09:03 |
| -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:03 | |
| a3nm | (first time someone tried to use it -> triggers an unexpected case) | 09:03 |
| ParahSailin | seems most publishers just use pages that could be parsed, no? | 09:03 |
| ParahSailin | shouldnt need phantomjs for paper fetching | 09:04 |
| kanzure | oh yeah there's some bullshit ssl error on https://sciencemag.org/ links.. dunno what's up with that. | 09:04 |
| kanzure | paperbot: https://sciencemag.org/ | 09:04 |
| paperbot | ConnectionError: [Errno 111] Connection refused (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/models.py", line 625, in send) | 09:04 |
| a3nm | ParahSailin: my fear was that you conceivably could have js redirects | 09:04 |
| a3nm | that you couldn't know about (as in, undecidable, halting problem, etc.) without actually running the JS | 09:05 |
| ParahSailin | right | 09:05 |
| ParahSailin | i think most publishers dont have those | 09:05 |
| a3nm | but since in the actual situation it's an iframe which is a different problem, I won't try supporting this until I actually see it in the wild ^^ | 09:05 |
| a3nm | afk, thanks for your help guys | 09:06 |
| -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@cpe-174-106-131-132.ec.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:08 | |
| delinquentme | paperbot, http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v14/n2/abs/nm1684.html | 09:09 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Perfusion-decellularized%20matrix%3A%20using%20nature%27s%20platform%20to%20engineer%20a%20bioartificial%20heart.pdf | 09:09 |
| kanzure | i wonder if it would be possible to sell lightning strikes | 09:26 |
| kanzure | "get struck by lightning for only $4.99" | 09:26 |
| kanzure | i guess there are too many potential problems with killing your customer | 09:26 |
| ParahSailin | alcor shows that you can make a business model out of that | 09:29 |
| kanzure | i want some death metal band to rent out alcor's facilities for a music video | 09:32 |
| kanzure | i think it could work well | 09:32 |
| -!- randalla1ordon is now known as randallagordon | 09:37 | |
| -!- delinquentme [~asdfasdf@cpe-174-106-131-132.ec.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 09:51 | |
| -!- Charlie [~quassel@74.63.212.44] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 09:51 | |
| kanzure | .title http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22649922 | 09:51 |
| yoleaux | BBC News - WHO urges information sharing over novel coronavirus | 09:51 |
| kanzure | "This is utterly horrid. Open knowledge sharing in this area particularly is *vital* to saving lives and effectively diagnosing illnesses. Yet patents appear to be impeding this. The move comes after Saudi Arabia said the development of diagnostic tests had been delayed by patent rights on the NCoV virus by commercial laboratories. Twenty-two deaths and 44 cases have been reported worldwide since 2012, the WHO says." | 09:52 |
| -!- abumirqaan [uid2969@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-slehvbpfmflkrolv] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 09:53 | |
| -!- Lemminkainen [uid2346@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ejbogukivllvrmhf] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 09:55 | |
| -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 10:02 | |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 10:05 | |
| -!- ielo [~ielo@cpc9-addl4-2-0-cust229.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 10:29 | |
| -!- ielo [~ielo@cpc9-addl4-2-0-cust229.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 10:40 | |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 10:59 | |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@185.5.8.81] has quit [Changing host] | 10:59 | |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 10:59 | |
| -!- Charlie [~quassel@74.63.212.44] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 11:03 | |
| ua | exit | 11:10 |
| kanzure | eh? | 11:10 |
| -!- ielo [~ielo@cpc9-addl4-2-0-cust229.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 11:15 | |
| -!- klafka [~klafka@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 11:26 | |
| -!- Lemminkainen [uid2346@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rfomlzkmvghwdhki] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 11:34 | |
| -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 11:38 | |
| -!- klafka [~klafka@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 12:10 | |
| -!- abumirqaan [uid2969@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eavaabvfejcyxhht] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 12:16 | |
| -!- klafka [~klafka@c-67-174-253-229.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 12:17 | |
| juri_ | paperbot, http://download.cell.com/current-biology/pdf/PIIS0960982213004946.pdf | 12:23 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ba7aa4c72efe70424981c3b718686b20.txt | 12:23 |
| juri_ | figures. the one time i'm interested in reading a paper... ;) | 12:24 |
| ParahSailin | try the sciencedirect of that one | 12:31 |
| ParahSailin | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982213004946 | 12:32 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/A%20Strong%20Interactive%20Link%20between%20Sensory%20Discriminations%20and%20Intelligence.txt | 12:32 |
| kanzure | so i wanted to look into getting a vertical list of windows in irssi and came across http://blog.linopol.us/a/8 | 12:45 |
| kanzure | but basically the method boils down to "irssi script to dump the list of windows to a named pipe, tmux to display the list in a vertical pane" | 12:46 |
| kanzure | oh, but http://anti.teamidiot.de/static/nei/*/Code/Irssi/adv_windowlist.pl seems to indicate it causes irssi to show the window (without you making a new tmux pane) | 12:47 |
| ParahSailin | doesnt weechat do vertical panes? | 13:06 |
| -!- ryankarason [~rak@cpe-76-189-227-224.neo.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 13:10 | |
| -!- FooQuuxman [~test@c-98-215-254-55.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 13:16 | |
| -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 13:27 | |
| -!- klafka [~klafka@c-24-6-18-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 13:32 | |
| ParahSailin | lol fu pip "URLError: <urlopen error unknown url type: https>" | 13:32 |
| kanzure | yeah, pip doesn't work over https | 13:45 |
| kanzure | or it doesn't use https by default | 13:45 |
| kanzure | because who needs to be sure about their packages? just install everything and you'll be fine. :P | 13:45 |
| ParahSailin | so much for just typing pip install shit like the website of the package says | 13:53 |
| kanzure | huh? pip install should work. how are you encountering https? | 13:54 |
| ParahSailin | pip install matplotlib | 13:54 |
| kanzure | huh.. | 13:54 |
| -!- FooQuuxman [~test@c-98-215-254-55.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 14:01 | |
| ParahSailin | fuck the fuck out of this shit http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.matplotlib.devel/12053 | 14:05 |
| kanzure | this seems to be an unrelated problem. also it looks like you need the libpng-devel package. | 14:07 |
| ParahSailin | why does centos not just ship with python 2.7, what is this, 2004? | 14:08 |
| kanzure | is it python3? | 14:08 |
| ParahSailin | 2.6 | 14:08 |
| kanzure | hm yeah i would estimate 2004 | 14:08 |
| ParahSailin | os freshly installed two months ago; stuck in 2004 | 14:09 |
| ParahSailin | its nearly impossible to build numpy properly from source, given its crazy BLAS prereqs; you almost have to get it and matplotlib from the os package system | 14:10 |
| kanzure | what's wrong with the os package system? | 14:11 |
| ParahSailin | helpfully, centos gives you python2.6 binary packages for all of them | 14:11 |
| kanzure | why are you using centos? | 14:12 |
| ParahSailin | sys admin picked this shit | 14:12 |
| kanzure | quit. | 14:12 |
| ParahSailin | yeah.. | 14:13 |
| juri_ | hire a new sysadmin. | 14:21 |
| kanzure | he's not in charge of hiring decisions. he should quit. there's no reason to tolerate that. | 14:21 |
| jrayhawk | install debian in chroot, problem solved | 14:47 |
| jrayhawk | or lxc if you want a somewhat fuller system | 14:47 |
| Urchin[emacs] | centos is an enterprise distro, and enterprise environments require an environment that does not change much, if at all | 14:50 |
| Urchin[emacs] | python is really a terrible language for making a project in | 14:51 |
| jrayhawk | yeah, i regret having ever written things in ruby for the same reason | 14:51 |
| jrayhawk | now i write stuff in perl because it makes me feel like killing myself *only when I write it*, rather than for the eternity of API breakage on subsequent interpreter releases | 14:53 |
| Urchin[emacs] | I cringe at the nanoengineer program, personally | 14:53 |
| Urchin[emacs] | ANSI C rules! | 14:53 |
| jrayhawk | i should start doing more in C | 14:53 |
| kanzure | writing nanoengineer in c would not have made those programmers smarter or more insightful | 14:53 |
| kanzure | nanoengineer isn't problematic because python it's problematic because no testing | 14:54 |
| kanzure | and no separation of models from presentation | 14:54 |
| jrayhawk | those are additional problems | 14:54 |
| jrayhawk | are you able to run it without an ubuntu chroot yet | 14:54 |
| kanzure | i don't see how python is the primary problem | 14:54 |
| kanzure | yes | 14:54 |
| jrayhawk | oh good | 14:54 |
| Urchin[emacs] | I cringed at the hoops one had to go trough just to run the thing, I didn't look deeply into it | 14:54 |
| jrayhawk | apparently there are fewer hoops, now | 14:55 |
| kanzure | i would be okay with complaining about python/gtk or python/qt api breakage, but realistically a core library written in python shouldn't be a big deal. | 14:55 |
| jrayhawk | have you bugged them about hosting nanoengineer-1.com | 14:56 |
| Urchin[emacs] | so, does it really make sense fixing nanoengineer, rather than developing your own program? | 14:56 |
| kanzure | i might have, i don't remember. i think i have a backup of a wiki, but not the joomla thing, and i don't know how much i want to handle joomla or migrate joomla or think about it. | 14:56 |
| -!- ielo [~ielo@cpc9-addl4-2-0-cust229.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 14:57 | |
| kanzure | Urchin[emacs]: depends on what you are developing. | 14:57 |
| jrayhawk | well i was thinking even just rendering the readme.md file would be better than what they have now | 14:57 |
| kanzure | oh, and i guess i sort of took responsibility for doing things like that huh | 14:59 |
| kanzure | ok that is probably worth doing | 15:00 |
| kanzure | Urchin[emacs]: if you want to help nanoengineer, it would be cool to write tests against the current source code, or pull out important parts into a separate module. | 15:03 |
| Urchin[emacs] | I haven't really touched python since it was in 2.4 or so, and even then I never really did anything serious with it | 15:06 |
| Urchin[emacs] | I might look into it | 15:10 |
| Urchin[emacs] | no promisses | 15:10 |
| pwang_ | python's not terrible for projects | 15:28 |
| pwang_ | compared to haskell, sure | 15:29 |
| Urchin[emacs] | doesn't haskell change some every once in a while? | 15:29 |
| Urchin[emacs] | well, I really see no reason for not going for the best | 15:30 |
| pwang_ | not really | 15:31 |
| pwang_ | type checker is useful for when you have to rip out and replace large parts of a program | 15:32 |
| -!- makoLime [~mako@103-9-42-128.flip.co.nz] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 15:37 | |
| kanzure | upverter.com now claims to have eagle 6 file format importing. iirc they still have some sort of weird json export format. i wonder if they can do full-cycle lossless conversion. | 15:55 |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 15:56 | |
| kanzure | oh boy xp_prg strikes again.. "I was reading in scientific american that they have finally conquered the problem of building the blood supplying vessicle structures for 3d printed organs. They use sugar as the scaffold and create the vissicle structures with the organ etc... This is very exciting as it means other non-trivial organs can be created and utilized besides bladders and skin, ears etc... " | 15:57 |
| kanzure | i'm pretty sure jmil's work doesn't apply to organs, i don't understand how the fuck he misread that. | 15:58 |
| brownies | wasn't he 3d printing like a cake or something? how did they jump to livers? | 16:06 |
| fenn | he was printing dissolvable tissue scaffolds/vasculature | 16:06 |
| kanzure | i have no idea how xp_prg could have misinterpreted that to mean organs.. | 16:08 |
| fenn | apparently he also prints chocolate | 16:08 |
| kanzure | also, wikipedia is lacking details about snail behavior | 16:08 |
| kanzure | i am trying to figure out what snails are doing when they climb during rains | 16:08 |
| -!- yorick [~yorick@oftn/member/yorick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:08 | |
| kanzure | i guess they just climb up, hang out, climb down when it's safe? | 16:09 |
| fenn | .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yys1766j9js&list=UUZWnO__2IFnY5TqZyLIY5GQ&index=13 | 16:09 |
| yoleaux | 3D Printed Sugar Lattice for Vascular Casting in Engineered Living Tissues - YouTube | 16:09 |
| fenn | i can see how you'd leap from that to organs, it's not that big of a stretch | 16:10 |
| fenn | an order of magnitude or two at most | 16:10 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://mollus.oxfordjournals.org/content/77/3/241.full | 16:10 |
| paperbot | error: HTTP 300 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Rain%20events%20influence%20short-term%20feeding%20preferences%20in%20the%20snail%20Cepaea%20nemoralis.pdf | 16:10 |
| kanzure | i don't think this is the same behavior: | 16:14 |
| kanzure | http://petsnails.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=behavior&action=display&thread=1539 | 16:14 |
| kanzure | "only some like crows and robins: these birds are known to use stones to crack the snail shell. | 16:14 |
| kanzure | i thought that was only clams. | 16:15 |
| brownies | why are you snail-hunting | 16:15 |
| kanzure | almost stepped on a few of these jerks, then saw that my walls were covered with them. | 16:15 |
| brownies | ...outside or inside wall? | 16:17 |
| kanzure | outside. where the rain is. | 16:17 |
| kanzure | keep up. | 16:17 |
| fenn | this person has 3000 posts about pet snails O.o | 16:17 |
| brownies | i can't keep up. the snails move too quickly for me. | 16:17 |
| kanzure | it's a marathon not a race! | 16:17 |
| kanzure | i was surprised that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snail is lacking details about their vertical traveling. | 16:18 |
| fenn | i've seen them clustered under the lip of a compost bin like that | 16:21 |
| kanzure | http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-10856523 "A 69-year-old amateur scientist has apparently discovered that her garden snails have a homing instinct." | 16:21 |
| fenn | "snails usually seek a place under cover but off the ground, maybe to protect them against being spotted by predators and heavy rains/ flooding. " | 16:21 |
| kanzure | sure, but what happens when they go up? do they come down when it stops raining? before it stops raining? | 16:22 |
| kanzure | it seems like an awful lot of work to climb straight up | 16:22 |
| fenn | for snails, going in any direction is a lot of work | 16:22 |
| cogitokat | Working is better than getting eaten | 16:24 |
| cogitokat | or stepped on | 16:24 |
| fenn | i think they avoid the rain so they dont drown | 16:24 |
| cogitokat | or drowned | 16:25 |
| kanzure | but you could just go up a little bit, what's up with going 10 feet? | 16:25 |
| fenn | snails are not known for their intelligence | 16:26 |
| cogitokat | Maybe they just have one up switch that is triggered by rain/no rain. | 16:27 |
| kanzure | .title http://petsnails.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=behavior&action=display&thread=9574 | 16:27 |
| yoleaux | PetSnails Forum - Why Do My Snails Occasionally Sleep On The Ceiling | 16:27 |
| cogitokat | Their next post is "Why do I let snails loose in my house, what's wrong with me?" | 16:28 |
| fenn | his snail is named goku :] | 16:28 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: where is this? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/books/papers/AFM.zip | 16:38 |
| nmz787 | used to be http://heybryan.org/books/papers/AFM.zip | 16:38 |
| -!- Juul [~Juul@c-67-170-193-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 16:38 | |
| kanzure | nmz787: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/AFM.zip | 16:39 |
| kanzure | heath: speaking of organ things, or business things, if you're not interested in dna synthesis then i would say do organ chambers/pods/things to keep organs alive and networked. | 16:56 |
| kanzure | "In SICP this is called "design by wishful thinking": you pretend that you already have a library of primitives that do the nitty-gritty work and write the high-level bits of your program using those primitives. Then, you go back and implement the primitives. It can also be explained as way to postpone decision you can't clearly make right now. First, you pretend to have made the decision, and later on you implement the decision "you wish you ... | 17:03 |
| kanzure | ... had made"." | 17:03 |
| kanzure | http://projectwordsworth.com/the-paradox-of-the-proof/ | 17:13 |
| kanzure | "“Mochizuki…just read them from beginning to end sitting at his desk,” recalls Kim. “He started this process when he was still an undergraduate, and within a few years, he was just completely done.”" | 17:13 |
| kanzure | this does not sound like a single sitting to me. unless poop bags. | 17:13 |
| -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] | 17:17 | |
| kanzure | fenn: what's the right name for keeping-organs-alive-in-closed-loop-systems? | 17:26 |
| kanzure | i was always confused about the practice of transporting frozen hearts for transplant operations. it seems like it would be better to keep them beating with bloodflow or something. | 17:29 |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 17:48 | |
| -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@cpe-66-27-118-94.san.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 18:18 | |
| -!- helleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 18:22 | |
| -!- Juul [~Juul@c-67-170-193-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 18:22 | |
| -!- helleshin [~talinck@69-61-156-24.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 18:27 | |
| -!- Urchin[emacs] [~user@unaffiliated/urchin] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] | 18:44 | |
| -!- cogitokat [~kat@ip70-171-6-179.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] | 18:45 | |
| -!- cogitokat [~kat@ip70-171-6-179.ga.at.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 18:57 | |
| -!- lichen_ [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 18:58 | |
| -!- lichen [~lichen@c-24-21-206-64.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] | 19:00 | |
| -!- FooQuuxman [~test@c-98-215-254-55.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] | 19:08 | |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@node91.18.251.72.1dial.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 19:08 | |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@node91.18.251.72.1dial.com] has quit [Changing host] | 19:08 | |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 19:08 | |
| fenn | well there's cardiopulmonary bypass, but that's for a whole body, not just a single organ | 19:15 |
| fenn | as far as i can tell they just put it on ice and hope for the best :\ | 19:15 |
| kanzure | i wonder if someone tested if keeping it pumping and feasting on blood was better than ice in a bucket | 19:15 |
| kanzure | this seems like the sort of thing that some mad science probably checked during a war or something | 19:17 |
| fenn | ah here we go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_perfusion | 19:17 |
| fenn | cost-effectiveness really? | 19:18 |
| kanzure | no that's whole-body perfusion i thought? | 19:18 |
| kanzure | oh i guess not. neat. | 19:18 |
| kanzure | "Hypothermic perfusion has given the longest storage time for canine kidneys with the best result being 8 day storage.[2] This experimental model used a storage temperature of 8°C and a Plasma Protein Fraction (PPF) based perfusate.[3] The octanoic acid content of PPF was found to influence the results of preservation in five-day storage.[4] Both octanoic acid and oleic acid stimulated oxygen consumption to a similar degree during ... | 19:18 |
| kanzure | ... hypothermic perfusion[5] suggesting that the detrimental effect of Octanoic acid was due to direct metabolic stimulation rather than uncoupling of oxidatative phosphorylation.[6]" | 19:18 |
| kanzure | why did they bother with this perfusate? what about blood.. | 19:19 |
| fenn | because they watched that movie "Alien" and liked the white blood better | 19:20 |
| kanzure | i would also expect them to test on non-human hearts | 19:21 |
| fenn | yeah i dunno. CPB seems to work fine for long periods of time | 19:21 |
| kanzure | without the heart beating? | 19:22 |
| fenn | it seems that clotting is a problem | 19:22 |
| fenn | they try to keep it under 10 hours, but CPB has been used successfully for 16 days (31 days?) | 19:23 |
| -!- Juul [~Juul@c-67-161-75-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 19:23 | |
| kanzure | if the heart isn't beating (during CPB), then how does it get oxygen to itself? | 19:23 |
| kanzure | oh i guess you pump blood through the heart as part of the circuit | 19:24 |
| fenn | in the 16 day case, the guy didn't have a heart (hence why he was on bypass) | 19:24 |
| kanzure | pfft how was i supposed to know that. sometimes they put you on bypass to let your heart take some time off to heal. | 19:25 |
| fenn | uh, no | 19:25 |
| fenn | it's so they don't have to try to do surgery on a beating heart | 19:26 |
| fenn | there are now robots that servo their movements to the beartbeat, it's pretty cool | 19:26 |
| kanzure | wasn't there some text i pasted once about artificial hearts and using bypass to give the heart time to heal? (before doing replacement) | 19:26 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postperfusion_syndrome ".. a constellation of neurocognitive impairments attributed to cardiopulmonary bypass (CPB) during cardiac surgery. Symptoms of postperfusion syndrome are subtle and include defects associated with attention, concentration, short term memory, fine motor function, and speed of mental and motor responses.[1]" oh great. | 19:27 |
| kanzure | "often transient with no permanent neurological impairmen" | 19:27 |
| kanzure | *impairment | 19:27 |
| fenn | are you thinking about getting a heart transplant? | 19:28 |
| kanzure | nope. but the heart is a pretty easy organ to test perfusion equipment with. | 19:28 |
| kanzure | i brought it up because heath seemed like he was out of ideas of things to figure to be worth working on | 19:28 |
| -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 19:53 | |
| -!- HEx1 [~HEx@hexwab.plus.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 20:10 | |
| -!- wizrobe [~userdi@c-76-23-254-105.hsd1.ct.comcast.net] has left ##hplusroadmap [] | 20:11 | |
| -!- FooQuuxman [~test@c-98-215-254-55.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 20:11 | |
| -!- FooQuuxman [~test@c-98-215-254-55.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 20:36 | |
| -!- Juul [~Juul@c-67-161-75-55.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 20:38 | |
| -!- Juul [~Juul@static.3.202.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 20:49 | |
| -!- SphericalMouse [62cfd610@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.207.214.16] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 21:03 | |
| SphericalMouse | yoyo NMZ | 21:03 |
| -!- Juul [~Juul@static.3.202.4.46.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 21:03 | |
| kanzure | nmz787: ping | 21:03 |
| kanzure | he doesn't seem to be online | 21:04 |
| SphericalMouse | hmm, he wanted to talk about microfluidics | 21:04 |
| -!- SphericalMouse [62cfd610@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.207.214.16] has quit [Quit: Page closed] | 21:26 | |
| -!- _Sol_ [~Sol@c-174-57-58-11.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] | 22:19 | |
| -!- ielo [~ielo@cpc9-addl4-2-0-cust229.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 22:30 | |
| -!- ielo [~ielo@cpc9-addl4-2-0-cust229.6-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 22:38 | |
| -!- Juul [~Juul@c-67-170-193-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 22:40 | |
| -!- JayDugger [~jwdugger@pool-173-74-72-47.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 22:49 | |
| -!- Juul [~Juul@c-67-170-193-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 22:52 | |
| -!- Urchin[emacs] [~user@unaffiliated/urchin] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:46 | |
| --- Log closed Sat May 25 00:00:36 2013 | ||
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!