| --- Log opened Mon Jul 29 00:00:39 2013 | ||
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| archels | paperbot: http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/ARTL_e_00083 | 03:21 |
|---|---|---|
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag5/10.1162/ARTL_e_00083.pdf | 03:21 |
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| @kanzure | https://github.com/ShopBotTools/handibot-hardware | 05:47 |
| @kanzure | http://www.shopbottools.com/mApplications/developers.htm | 05:48 |
| @kanzure | https://github.com/ShopBotTools/handibot-hardware/blob/master/models/HandibotV1.00.00.stp | 05:48 |
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| archels | paperbot: http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1162/ARTL_a_00085 | 06:29 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ccde309e4a2a34c5d30049b7cd60e03f.pdf | 06:30 |
| @kanzure | ableep boopr | 06:40 |
| archels | hi kanzure | 06:48 |
| archels | thanks for paperbot! | 06:48 |
| @kanzure | something new is coming on that front | 06:49 |
| @kanzure | to replace paperbot's guts with something more scary/powerful | 06:49 |
| anannie | how does paperbot actually work? | 06:50 |
| @kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot | 06:50 |
| archels | it will achieve sentience? | 06:50 |
| @kanzure | nothing so pedestrian | 06:51 |
| anannie | paperbot: hi | 06:52 |
| * anannie expected a response | 06:52 | |
| gradstudentbot | Does this look contaminated to you? | 06:52 |
| @kanzure | anannie: paperbot just fetches papers. it isn't capable of human emotion or thought. | 06:54 |
| anannie | kanzure: I was expecting an eliza type bot | 06:54 |
| @kanzure | sorry to disappoint :) | 07:05 |
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| anannie | Okay I've decided to build one robot every week for the next 100 weeks | 07:24 |
| anannie | Today is week one and I'm torn between building a simple, but practical vehicle and doing line following on it or building a six legged walker | 07:24 |
| @fenn | anannie: maybe it seems obvious to you, but why would you do that? | 07:29 |
| anannie | fenn: Do what? | 07:29 |
| anannie | fenn: Build a robot each week for the next 100 weeks? | 07:30 |
| anannie | fenn: or build a simple, practical vehicle? | 07:30 |
| @fenn | well, that too, but why build a line follower or a walker? i don't see the point | 07:30 |
| @fenn | you can buy a well engineered RC car for $50 | 07:31 |
| anannie | fenn: The point is to learn the fundamentals and the way systems are controlled and basically creating complex machines with behaviour, personalities and so on | 07:31 |
| anannie | fenn: This is what I excel at. I like building robots | 07:31 |
| anannie | All's well in the world when I'm building robots | 07:31 |
| @fenn | why not just do heroin, it's cheaper | 07:32 |
| anannie | I'm using Lego for most of this, so it's rather cost effective. | 07:32 |
| anannie | I'll mate the Lego with arduino and then run it off of that | 07:32 |
| anannie | and a few of the machines, I'll start building them from scratch as well | 07:33 |
| @kanzure | fenn: that's a lousy line of argument | 07:34 |
| @kanzure | fenn: are you a heroin addict now | 07:35 |
| @fenn | i just dont see the difference between line followers and gluing popsicle sticks together | 07:36 |
| anannie | and what are worthy projects in your pov? | 07:36 |
| anannie | I'm not claiming that it's anything special. I'm just trying to do stuff by volume, so that I end up doing something special | 07:37 |
| @fenn | i just think if you build something, it should have a purpose. | 07:38 |
| anannie | this does have a purpose | 07:38 |
| anannie | educating me so that I can do interesting stuff later on | 07:39 |
| @fenn | fair enough | 07:39 |
| @fenn | you would be better served learning how to run a cnc mill | 07:39 |
| anannie | I've already done that | 07:39 |
| anannie | and there aren't too many mills around me | 07:40 |
| @fenn | then build one :P | 07:40 |
| anannie | I will | 07:40 |
| ParahSail1n | a cnc mill is a type of robot | 07:40 |
| ParahSail1n | that can be week 1 | 07:40 |
| anannie | I don't have enough parts to make that... I'll make it once I have acquired enough parts | 07:41 |
| @fenn | that sounds like a video game argument | 07:41 |
| @fenn | you should make it out of whatever you have access to | 07:41 |
| @kanzure | not enough ore! mine more ore! | 07:41 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o archels] by kanzure | 07:42 | |
| anannie | fenn: which is basically stuff that I can fit into my suitcase | 07:42 |
| @fenn | besides, you wouldn't want to waste your legos on something that you don't want to take apart | 07:42 |
| ParahSail1n | lol legos? | 07:42 |
| anannie | fenn: I'm not living in the US.... third world country and so a lot of things are restricted for me | 07:42 |
| anannie | I can only build with what I can carry | 07:42 |
| @kanzure | anannie: that's not a fair excuse, sorry | 07:43 |
| @kanzure | anannie: many people in third world countries have built very tiny cnc machines | 07:43 |
| @fenn | that's a pretty huge engineering constraint | 07:43 |
| anannie | kanzure: Sure with time, but I can't carry that around... too heavy | 07:43 |
| ParahSail1n | i saw a video of a schoolteacher who's now an arms manufacturer in aleppo | 07:43 |
| @kanzure | what is too heavy? sorry. | 07:43 |
| anannie | kanzure: I move around a lot | 07:43 |
| ParahSail1n | does syria count as third world? | 07:43 |
| anannie | kanzure: The drills, hacksaws, motors, and other stuff | 07:43 |
| @kanzure | have you considered not building a heavy cnc? | 07:44 |
| anannie | kanzure: You need a drill at least something to make that | 07:44 |
| ParahSail1n | maybe you should solve the constraint of only being able to build stuff you can carry first | 07:44 |
| @fenn | i'm having trouble imagining a situation where there's no access to tools and yet you move around a lot, and never visit the same place twice | 07:44 |
| @kanzure | ah yes the traveling machinist problem | 07:45 |
| @kanzure | traveling bootstrapping machinist problem | 07:45 |
| anannie | building one requires a setup of drills, material and so on... I move around a lot. New town every 3 to 6 months. | 07:45 |
| @kanzure | welp you better get good at recreating everything each time :) | 07:45 |
| @kanzure | that's what fenn did | 07:45 |
| @kanzure | until he lost his soul | 07:45 |
| @fenn | kanzure: hey that's pretty good | 07:45 |
| ParahSail1n | what third world country is this anyway | 07:46 |
| @kanzure | america | 07:46 |
| anannie | India. | 07:46 |
| @kanzure | my answer is funnier. | 07:46 |
| anannie | yup | 07:46 |
| @fenn | well it sounds like you should just make small stuff | 07:46 |
| @fenn | that actually might be an innovation in itself | 07:47 |
| @fenn | a mini factory standardized around dremel sized tooling | 07:48 |
| * anannie hopes fenn realizes that she can carry about 6lbs at a time | 07:49 | |
| @fenn | RC servos for airplanes are pretty lightweight, they have to be | 07:49 |
| ParahSail1n | bootrapping all that seems like its more effort than its worth | 07:49 |
| @fenn | anannie: okay, first thing to re-invent is the wheel | 07:49 |
| @kanzure | ParahSail1n: frictionless bootstrapping makes the more costly things much less costly. instead of buying a $500k haas suddenly you are building one. | 07:50 |
| @fenn | and then make a robot that follows you around | 07:50 |
| ParahSail1n | solve the 6 lb constraint, then go from there | 07:51 |
| @kanzure | i was talking with a startup the other day that was trying to convince me that their 3-axis haas was a "company perk" | 07:51 |
| @kanzure | yeah, just what i want to do, wallow in misery every day waiting for a turn to use a haas | 07:51 |
| ParahSail1n | what is that small build it yourself cnc mill that recently came out? | 07:51 |
| @kanzure | there are many. most of them only cut really terrible materials like paper or wood. | 07:52 |
| @fenn | it's a shame nobody has worked on "fast tool servo" or active structural vibration damping in these small machines | 07:52 |
| ParahSail1n | shapeoki | 07:53 |
| @kanzure | i am pretty sure everyone is pretending that vibration doesn't exist | 07:53 |
| @kanzure | or they are just too clueless to be aware of anomalies in their cut pieces | 07:53 |
| @kanzure | shapeoki is not recent.. haha. | 07:53 |
| ParahSail1n | how long's it been around | 07:54 |
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| @fenn | shapeoko looks more like a self-assembled kit than something one could make from scratch | 07:54 |
| @kanzure | i don't have a list of wood-cutting cnc machines because i treated them all as a joke | 07:54 |
| @kanzure | abetusk was working on one i think, he probably knows their names better than i do | 07:54 |
| @kanzure | possibly randallagordon | 07:55 |
| ParahSail1n | wood has its uses | 07:55 |
| @fenn | wood is just extra-rigid styrofoam | 07:55 |
| @kanzure | did you ever look at fenn's stewart platform for hexapod cnc stuff? | 07:55 |
| ParahSail1n | same specific modulus as steel | 07:55 |
| ParahSail1n | just doesnt like fire very much | 07:55 |
| @fenn | http://fennetic.net/machines/hextatic | 07:56 |
| @fenn | also "wood" and "steel" are hilariously vague terms when it comes to machining | 07:57 |
| ParahSail1n | id bet its even possible to make a roller coaster out of wood if you cared enough to attempt it | 07:57 |
| @kanzure | making a rollercoaster is not a particularly interesting feat in this context | 07:57 |
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| @fenn | how about a wooden electron microscope | 07:58 |
| @kanzure | "your electrons deserve only the finest maple finish" ? | 07:58 |
| @fenn | i wonder if there's a good set of instructions for making poly lactic acid from starch | 08:01 |
| @fenn | better than i expected: http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Polylactic_acid/Manufacturing_Instructions | 08:02 |
| @fenn | anannie: if you do go the traveling bootstrapping machinist route, concrete is your friend. design systems with demountable massive components | 08:04 |
| @fenn | also, you can make a fairly serviceable machinable wax from paraffin and HDPE plastic bags | 08:07 |
| @fenn | (paraffin wax) | 08:07 |
| @kanzure | argh github is down. | 08:08 |
| @fenn | it's a great mold material for silicone rubber parts | 08:09 |
| @fenn | anannie: http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/gcnc/ch4/ this whole series is great | 08:12 |
| ParahSailin | hdpe bags and wax? | 08:27 |
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| ParahSailin | why is coefficient of performance so attrocious on ice making machines | 08:31 |
| @fenn | ah here's what i was remembering; not the most awesome robot but it's really neat to see it all made from scratch http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/omni2/ | 08:31 |
| ParahSailin | AC units get 3.5 COP, and ice machines seem to get less than 1 | 08:32 |
| @fenn | because it's a higher temperature differential | 08:32 |
| ParahSailin | evaporators on ice machines goes at -20 C, i dont think its just carnot efficiency at play | 08:33 |
| @kanzure | quick, scram to make a library calle ddildo.js http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/CR-vibration-20130723/ | 08:34 |
| @kanzure | oh it's just a timer? | 08:35 |
| @fenn | someone tell qdot | 08:35 |
| @kanzure | and why isn't there a callback for when the vibration is done? | 08:35 |
| @kanzure | who designs this shit | 08:35 |
| ParahSailin | .wa 253/(313-253) | 08:35 |
| yoleaux | 253/(313-253): 253/60; Decimal approximation: 4.216666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666...; Repeating decimal: 4.216^_ (period 1); Mixed fraction: 4 13/60; Number line: http://is.gd/p6U1vY; Continued fraction: [4; 4, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2]; Egyptian fraction expansion: 4 + 1/5+1/60 | 08:35 |
| ParahSailin | .wa 283/(313-283) | 08:36 |
| yoleaux | 283/(313-283): 283/30; Decimal approximation: 9.433333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333...; Repeating decimal: 9.43^_ (period 1); Mixed fraction: 9 13/30; Number line: http://is.gd/GBlCDD; Continued fraction: [9; 2, 3, 4]; Egyptian fraction expansion: 9 + 1/3+1/10 | 08:36 |
| ParahSailin | you should still get at least half the COP out of an ice maker | 08:36 |
| @kanzure | does wolfram alpha really need to display 58 zeros to get the point across? | 08:36 |
| @kanzure | i mean 58 '6's | 08:36 |
| @fenn | does wolfram alpha really need to give us the egyptian version of the number? | 08:36 |
| @kanzure | get out of my head | 08:37 |
| @kanzure | i totally called the 2 GHz frequency | 08:37 |
| @kanzure | go find your own brain wave frequency, you squatter | 08:37 |
| @fenn | i never understood why phone vibration has no control over the frequency of vibration | 08:39 |
| @fenn | everyone's phone sounds the same | 08:39 |
| @kanzure | but also what about strength of vibration (what is that a function of, anyway) | 08:40 |
| @fenn | oh well at least they let you specify in milliseconds | 08:40 |
| @fenn | you could do software pulse width modulation | 08:40 |
| @fenn | the amplitude is determined by the mass of the weight on the motor | 08:41 |
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| abetusk | I assembled a ShapeOko kit a while back. I also have a Zen toolworks machine. I haven't used the Zen toolworks for anything past drilling wood and routing PCBs | 08:47 |
| abetusk | The ShapeOko has significant problems though | 08:47 |
| ParahSailin | ah? | 08:49 |
| abetusk | I think kanzure is right, that the vibration isn't really accounted for. In the kit that I purchased, the y-axis was only driven by a belt on the left side and the right side was left without a drive train. This produced visible fishtailing when changing directions. So the first thing you have to do is get another stepper and another belt and put it on the other side of the y-axis | 08:50 |
| @kanzure | haha a belt | 08:51 |
| abetusk | At the time they didn't offer this option, but now they sell an 'upgrade' so that you can do it yourself. My feeling is that this should be necessary | 08:51 |
| gradstudentbot | Nobody has tried this before. | 08:51 |
| abetusk | yep, and that's the other thing, it's a belt. | 08:51 |
| abetusk | So, engraving wood, sure. Anything more than that and I would be skeptical. Thinking that you can cut aluminum is optimistic, imo | 08:52 |
| abetusk | There's also the problem of actually fastening the belt down so it's tight. That's a real pain and I haven't figured out a solution yet | 08:52 |
| abetusk | Limit switches are not really thought of and it's difficult to figure out how to install them. | 08:53 |
| abetusk | Anyway, it kind of looks like a first attempt by someone who didn't know that much about CNCs. I really appreciate it's open nature, but it has some design problems | 08:54 |
| abetusk | The Zen toolworks on the other hand, I like a lot. That's PVC with a leadscrew system, so I think it would be able to handle wood no problem. They say it can cut aluminum with some success, but that's getting iffy | 08:55 |
| abetusk | accurate enough to do surface mount PCB routing... | 08:55 |
| gradstudentbot | It's contaminated. | 08:56 |
| @kanzure | fenn: i think it's hilarious how nobody listens to you | 08:57 |
| gradstudentbot | You know, I can just do consulting. | 08:57 |
| @fenn | shapeoko is driven by a leadscrew from what i can see | 08:59 |
| @fenn | gradstudentbot: great plan, let's farm out the consulting work to bots | 08:59 |
| gradstudentbot | Why did I go to grad school? | 08:59 |
| @fenn | "buy IBM" "just use XML" | 08:59 |
| @kanzure | webscale. | 09:00 |
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| abetusk | fenn, The initial version I think did use a leadscrew system, but Edward Ford eventually changed it to a belt system...maybe for cost and/or simplicity? See: https://www.inventables.com/technologies/desktop-cnc-mill-kits-shapeoko | 09:02 |
| abetusk | That is definitely a belt system | 09:02 |
| @fenn | ah that's unfortunate | 09:03 |
| abetusk | yep | 09:03 |
| @fenn | the roller v bearing can handle a lot more force | 09:03 |
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| abetusk | yeah, that's another thing, I'm not to sure about using that roller system as the linear guide. | 09:04 |
| @fenn | should be fine if it's hard anodized | 09:05 |
| @fenn | how do you take the slop out? there doesn't seem to be any eccentric cam | 09:06 |
| @fenn | if the rollers are just held in place by friction, they'll work loose | 09:07 |
| abetusk | eccentric cam? | 09:07 |
| @fenn | a bushing with the center hole not quite concentric | 09:07 |
| @fenn | the bearing mounts on it, and you can move the bearing in and out by rotating the bushing | 09:08 |
| abetusk | As a way to keep the belt under tension? | 09:08 |
| @fenn | no, because the holes locating the bearings aren't spaced exactly right | 09:09 |
| @fenn | i imagine the plate they're mounted on flexes like crazy so it's probably a moot point | 09:10 |
| ParahSailin | its kind of annoying trying to make a save as box pop up to save a file generated in javascript in browser | 09:10 |
| @kanzure | you have to have the right headers from the server | 09:11 |
| @kanzure | or you can set window.location but it will prepopulate the filename with 'data' | 09:11 |
| @kanzure | oops i mean document.location | 09:11 |
| ParahSailin | well in this case there's no server generating the file | 09:11 |
| @fenn | "generated in browser" means the server has nothing to do with it | 09:11 |
| @kanzure | frankly the only two options are to get the http response headers from the server right or to use something like dropbox-js or filepicker-js | 09:12 |
| ParahSailin | but what i've had to do is actually transmit the file to the server as xhr then download it | 09:12 |
| @kanzure | you can also use the html5 filesystem api but that's only for a sandboxed area of the file system that users can never find | 09:12 |
| ParahSailin | still can't get the right headers to make it make a save as box | 09:12 |
| @kanzure | usually browsers will give you a save-as box if it doesn't recognize the mime type | 09:12 |
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| @kanzure | sometimes you can do something like, Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=filename.ext | 09:13 |
| @kanzure | but not all browsers respect Content-Disposition: attachment | 09:13 |
| ParahSailin | i tried "Content-Type: application/download'" and that didnt work | 09:13 |
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| @kanzure | Content-Disposition is not Content-Type | 09:13 |
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| ParahSailin | also put "Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=pilot_session.json" | 09:14 |
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| ParahSailin | still doesnt pop up save as box | 09:14 |
| @kanzure | and it just shows in your browser instead? | 09:14 |
| ParahSailin | it just downloads as that suggested file name | 09:14 |
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| @kanzure | there is no cross-browser compatible way to trigger "save as" | 09:15 |
| ParahSailin | how about just chrome way to do it, this is an internal app | 09:16 |
| @kanzure | again, filepicker and dropbox-js are two good options until html5 filesystem api stops sucking | 09:16 |
| @kanzure | what about <a href="data:"></a> using the data uri format | 09:17 |
| @kanzure | also if you are okay with flash, that's another option. | 09:17 |
| ParahSailin | the data just saves it as download.something without popping up dialog | 09:18 |
| @kanzure | i also recall an html5 attribute that you can add to an <a> element called download, but i haven't tried it. ask nmz787. | 09:18 |
| ParahSailin | yeah i guess ill have to use that flash thing | 09:18 |
| @kanzure | <a href="whatever" download>test link</a> | 09:18 |
| @kanzure | ah the internet says that this download attribute is only respected by google chrome as of july 2012 | 09:19 |
| ParahSailin | downloadify it is i guess | 09:22 |
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| abetusk | fenn, what's this eccentric cam business and what is it used for? | 09:36 |
| anannie | fenn: Thanks for the link! | 09:36 |
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| @fenn | abetusk: imagine you want to pinch a rail between three roller bearings, to make a sliding movement. the distance between the bearings will inevitably be different from the diameter (thickness) of the rail, so there needs to be a way to adjust the distance | 09:49 |
| @fenn | one way to do it is to have an oval slot, and just move one bearing in and out and bolt it in place at the correct distance | 09:50 |
| @fenn | another way is to push it in and out with a fine threaded screw | 09:51 |
| @fenn | the eccentric bushing is just another mechanism to adjust the distance, but it happens to be very compact | 09:51 |
| @fenn | another advantage is that the forces acting on it won't cause it to loosen, since tightening/loosening is done by applying torque | 09:52 |
| @fenn | http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61en8VKlg7L.jpg notice the stud/shoulder part isn't concentric with the roller part (you might have to zoom in to see this) | 09:54 |
| @fenn | it's a very tiny adjustment | 09:55 |
| @fenn | maybe easier to see the offset in this image http://www.2cvsource.com/files/1208090.jpg | 10:05 |
| @fenn | i can't believe there's no diagram of this on the internet | 10:05 |
| @fenn | http://www.qbcbearings.com/BuyRFQ/LinearB_Guide_B_VG_EC.htm | 10:08 |
| @fenn | click on "drawing" | 10:08 |
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| ParahSailin | weird, there's a secret, undocumented multiprocessing.pool.ThreadPool in python | 10:47 |
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| @heath | paperbot: http://nar.oxfordjournals.org/content/40/7/2862.long | 12:49 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1093%2Fnar%2Fgkr1173 | 12:49 |
| @heath | oh, it's already free | 12:50 |
| nmz787 | so is there a list of human-nonhuman hydbrids that have been tried and don't work... this would be a list with both human males inseminating nonhuman females, and vice versa (human females getting inseminated with nonhuman semen) | 13:02 |
| @fenn | seeing as bestiality is illegal in most places, you'd have a hard time getting an accurate list | 13:04 |
| @fenn | but there's a reason they're called species | 13:04 |
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| @fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanzee if you haven't read it yet | 13:05 |
| gradstudentbot | None of this data makes sense. | 13:08 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: so basically you're saying that the only way to know for sure is to get a bunch of girls to fool around with animals? instead of, you know, genetics. | 13:10 |
| cogitokat | I'd watch that | 13:12 |
| @fenn | oh apparently it's legal in russia, you just can't film it | 13:20 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: what do you mean knowing genetics? we only know by observation or experiment | 13:21 |
| @kanzure | ivf? | 13:21 |
| nmz787 | there are plenty of species that can interbreed | 13:22 |
| nmz787 | lions and tigers | 13:22 |
| nmz787 | donkey and horse | 13:22 |
| nmz787 | neanderthal and sapiens | 13:22 |
| nmz787 | its interesting that female lion on male tiger isn't the same as male lion on femal tiger | 13:22 |
| ParahSail1n | goats and sheep can interbreed at low frequency | 13:25 |
| ParahSail1n | but goat on sheep is common enough that geep are a thing from time to time | 13:25 |
| ParahSail1n | i bet if you had a million human-chimp encounters youd get a live birth out of it | 13:26 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: might be easier to get girls to fool with animals than genetics... lot less smart girls in the world... getting the men to mess with animals seems different but also not impossible... an old mexican on this ranch i was at years ago was suspected of messing with the sheep | 13:26 |
| cogitokat | wow | 13:27 |
| nmz787 | an IVF panel would be interesting I guess | 13:30 |
| nmz787 | i mean, it would be interesting for sure | 13:31 |
| nmz787 | but is that the whole picture, you still need to implant to see if it would go to term | 13:31 |
| nmz787 | right? | 13:31 |
| @heath | cambrian genomics isn't at the state of allowing people to place orders yet... | 13:41 |
| nmz787 | heath: no, in march they said they were still sorting oligomers | 13:42 |
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| @kanzure | yeah, at this point i am absolutely convinced that simpler is better | 13:52 |
| @kanzure | no complicated dna machinery. no microfluidics. just something that works. | 13:52 |
| jrayhawk_ | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1778686 | 14:03 |
| jrayhawk_ | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia#Extent_of_occurrence it's more than you'd think | 14:06 |
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| cogitokat | That data is from when more people lived on farms. It is probably even less than the Hunt study, today. Also, the real takeaway from that wikipedia page is that men have sex with animals more than women, so maybe there are 'lot less smart boys in the world.' | 14:33 |
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| nmz787 | cogitokat: smartness has nothing to do with sex though | 14:56 |
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| nmz787 | err, | 14:57 |
| nmz787 | scratch that, in the context earlier I guess it probably does | 14:57 |
| nmz787 | since men already have a higher prevalence towards beastiality | 14:58 |
| @kanzure | hrmm http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/391496725/the-slingatron-building-a-railroad-to-space?ref=category | 15:15 |
| nmz787 | yeah i saw that | 15:18 |
| superkuh | I think it is a bad idea.It solves a problem that doesn't really need to be solved. The max acceleration for ground based kinetic launchers isn't the issue. Modern electronics can stand very high G. | 15:31 |
| superkuh | The cheapest approach would be simple pipes forming a light gas gun using hydrogen. I have been told the problem of ground based kinetic launches is the mass fraction of the rocket engine to circularize the orbit compared to payload. | 15:33 |
| nmz787 | Restrictions on cloning and stem cell research have made chimera research an attractive alternative." | 15:49 |
| * nmz787 has made chimeric mice cells | 15:49 | |
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| @heath | paperbot: my thing is biological comput | 16:22 |
| @heath | paperbot: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022519382900029 | 16:22 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag1/10.1016/0022-5193%252882%252990002-9.pdf | 16:22 |
| @heath | ftr, that's not my quote pasted above | 16:23 |
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| ParahSail1n | superkuh, yeah, first stage as cannon would probably be pretty cost effective for launching dead stuff | 16:24 |
| @kanzure | heath: what does "biological computing" even mean.. wtf. | 16:25 |
| ParahSail1n | i'd invest it | 16:26 |
| @heath | kanzure: i have no clue | 16:26 |
| @kanzure | heath: i think you're full of it | 16:27 |
| @heath | ? | 16:27 |
| @kanzure | i mean, you've been obsessing over this for a while now, and you still don't even know what it is | 16:28 |
| @kanzure | this is not very efficient obsessing | 16:29 |
| @heath | kk | 16:29 |
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| nmz787 | "By now, he had a second experiment in mind: to inseminate women with chimp sperm. Knowing that no local woman would agree, he planned to do this under the pretext of a medical examination, but the French governor forbade it." | 16:31 |
| nmz787 | friggin politicians always interfering | 16:31 |
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| nmz787 | "When Ivanov put his proposal to the Academy of Sciences he painted it as the experiment that would prove men had evolved from apes. "If he crossed an ape and a human and produced viable offspring then that would mean Darwin was right about how closely related we are," says Etkind. When Ivanov approached the government, he stressed how proving Darwin right would strike a blow against religion, which the Bolsheviks were struggling to stamp out. Succes | 16:39 |
| nmz787 | So who are the modern day bolsheviks? | 16:40 |
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| nmz787 | howdy tomkinsc | 16:52 |
| tomkinsc | hello friend | 16:53 |
| @kanzure | hi | 16:53 |
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| nmz787 | hi phillyj | 16:53 |
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| ParahSail1n | how cheap are gps receivers now | 18:13 |
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| ParahSail1n | ah < $5 | 18:14 |
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| fredox | Practical question regarding DNAsynth machines: Approximately what volume of a given nucleotide solution is used per cycle? | 19:38 |
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| @kanzure | fredox: you only need one molecule as long as you can force it into the right spot. but since nobody can, they just talk about yield and avogadro's number and so on. | 20:52 |
| fredox | yes, I mean in a pratical machine what are typical consumption rates? | 20:53 |
| @kanzure | i don't think that matters. | 20:54 |
| @kanzure | if you need more, just ask and i will buy it | 20:54 |
| fredox | i'm thinking re machine design | 20:55 |
| @kanzure | the reaction can work at extremely small volumes, so go wild | 20:57 |
| @kanzure | but don't bother with microfluidics | 20:57 |
| yashgaroth | yeah you're more limited by how little volume you can reliably control | 20:57 |
| @kanzure | please do not design a machine that requires 200 liters per base pair of oligo... | 20:58 |
| fredox | could you give me a ballpark example of a current commercial machine | 20:59 |
| @kanzure | no. in fact, it's best if you ignore current machines completely because all of their ideas are bad. | 20:59 |
| @kanzure | i guess yashgaroth might be willing to give you some numbers, but imho the current details don't matter at all | 21:01 |
| @kanzure | some of the design questions are interesting though | 21:01 |
| yashgaroth | hey man that's chem I don't do chem, but I'll just go ahead and say 100nL | 21:01 |
| @kanzure | like whether or not to make a "multi-channel" monster | 21:01 |
| @kanzure | i sort of doubt it's 100 nL per reaction step | 21:01 |
| @kanzure | have you seen their tubes? the surface area of the tubes alone would eat that up. | 21:02 |
| @kanzure | i guess it might be under pressure | 21:02 |
| fredox | i would have thought it much larger than that | 21:02 |
| yashgaroth | I'm imagining the lower limit for 6 tubes into a reaction vessel with non-microfluidic tech, not those '80's contraptions | 21:02 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: then how do you explain the huge microarray designs. | 21:03 |
| @kanzure | oh, tubes. | 21:03 |
| @heath | fhttp://lammps.sandia.gov/ | 21:03 |
| @kanzure | no i meant erm.. plastic tubes for pumping things around. not tubes. | 21:03 |
| @heath | (25 July 2013) The 3rd LAMMPS workshop is now 2 weeks away (Aug 6-8), here in Albuquerque, NM. | 21:03 |
| yashgaroth | hell if I can transfer 1uL reliably myself surely a machine can manage an order of magnitude better | 21:03 |
| @heath | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uejPUnfuuw | 21:03 |
| @heath | .title | 21:03 |
| yoleaux | Self-assembly of DNA icosahedron - YouTube | 21:03 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: haha but you have no idea who designed those machines. they could have been idiots. | 21:03 |
| @kanzure | http://www.flickr.com/photos/64866643@N02/8448886468/ "One of the world's first commercially produced DNA/RNA synthesizers, this instrument is from the early period of DNA synthesis." (1982) | 21:04 |
| gradstudentbot | You know, I can just do consulting. | 21:05 |
| fredox | i was guessing somewhere in the uL range as a reasonably simple piece of engineering | 21:05 |
| yashgaroth | like an HPLC pump can do 1uL easy, but then packing them into a large array is difficult | 21:05 |
| yashgaroth | if you have the tiniest tubing and an adorable peristaltic pump, 1uL at a time is more reasonable | 21:06 |
| abetusk | fenn, thanks. If I remember correctl, there is such a device on the ShapeOko | 21:06 |
| abetusk | *correctly | 21:06 |
| @kanzure | you have to decide if you want to build something that uses a microarray or not | 21:06 |
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| fredox | nah thats much farther down the track | 21:07 |
| @kanzure | there are certain design constraints of this sort of system that i bet everyone else has ignored and just said "yeah, use a microarray" or "yeah, just put some tubules in it and pump liquids around" instead of actually considering the problem. | 21:07 |
| yashgaroth | and also how efficient your downstream step is, since if you get one femtogram of oligo there's not much you can do with it | 21:07 |
| @kanzure | not sure you would be able to confirm a single femtogram | 21:07 |
| yashgaroth | quantification is included in 'downstream steps' yeah | 21:08 |
| fredox | cycle time is the next obvious parameter | 21:09 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: i wonder if i should get heath or nate to manually do oligo synthesis with a pipette, just to get the hang of it | 21:10 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: and then maybe they will get so frustrated that they will scribble out a better way to do it | 21:10 |
| @kanzure | it seems sort of torturous even for 4 or 5 bp.. | 21:10 |
| yashgaroth | I thought you need a contained vessel or something because ambient humidity | 21:11 |
| fredox | do you have any specific goals regarding machine synth rates and capacity? | 21:11 |
| @kanzure | none whatsoever. the primary motivator for me is cost. i am pretty sure machines that do these steps don't have to cost $50k-$250k. | 21:12 |
| @kanzure | might cost $50k in development but i don't care | 21:12 |
| fredox | i am certain a basic machine could be built for a few hundred dollars | 21:13 |
| @kanzure | yes | 21:13 |
| @kanzure | well, no, i'm not certain of that | 21:13 |
| @kanzure | but it seems much more realistic to me | 21:14 |
| @kanzure | it's not like all of your parts are made of plutonium or something | 21:14 |
| @kanzure | oh wait, what's the currently expensive element these days? blast where is united nuclear when you need it.. | 21:14 |
| gradstudentbot | Nobody is even going to read this paper. | 21:14 |
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| @kanzure | fredox: if you wanna get those parts, let me know. | 21:17 |
| @heath | [23:10:16] <kanzure> yashgaroth: i wonder if i should get heath or nate to manually do oligo synthesis with a pipette, just to get the hang of it | 21:17 |
| @heath | yes | 21:17 |
| * heath willingly vounteers | 21:17 | |
| * heath sleeps first | 21:18 | |
| fredox | kanzure: parts? | 21:18 |
| @kanzure | fredox: yeah, i could cover things like a BOM and reagents. | 21:20 |
| @kanzure | fredox: in particular this deal would only apply if you want to make an open source synthesizer. | 21:20 |
| fredox | thats the plan | 21:21 |
| fredox | could be handy in the future, though i should mention i am in australia | 21:21 |
| @kanzure | i wont hold that against you | 21:21 |
| @kanzure | where in australia? | 21:21 |
| fredox | melbourne | 21:22 |
| @kanzure | have you gone to cchs? | 21:22 |
| @kanzure | i also highly recommend showing up here: http://www.meetup.com/emergence-24/ (tell them i sent you and they will nod solemnly) | 21:23 |
| fredox | no, i had not seen that before | 21:23 |
| @kanzure | there is also chris pendelbury and adam ford (although adam has gone to the dark side (managing magazines for hplus, a transhumanist anal ointment cream company)) | 21:24 |
| * kanzure thinks | 21:25 | |
| @kanzure | that about exhausts my homies in melbourne. | 21:25 |
| @kanzure | http://www.hackmelbourne.org/ | 21:25 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: was there a good reason against doing a 4096-element macro library? | 21:36 |
| yashgaroth | not aside from the initial startup cost and the unprovenness...wait, maybe something about the lower limit on ligase | 21:37 |
| @kanzure | no i think it might have been geometric/space dimension constraints | 21:38 |
| @kanzure | like.. where are you going to put 4096 tubes. | 21:38 |
| @kanzure | i mean, 4096 vials that are connected to tubes that get cleaned. or something. | 21:38 |
| yashgaroth | you can get microtiter plates with a thousand wells | 21:39 |
| @kanzure | and then do micropipettor selector arm robot? | 21:39 |
| yashgaroth | yeah, since tubing to connect to those wells becomes unwieldy | 21:39 |
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| @kanzure | if you have a 4096-well plate then you might as well just always synthesize from scratch i think, because you can tolerate errors earlier in the process or somtehing | 21:39 |
| @kanzure | tbh i was thinking a system with no moving parts would be easier to debug. but this might be "grass is always greener" influencing me. | 21:40 |
| @kanzure | *something | 21:40 |
| yashgaroth | the main advantage of the library was that the oligos are self-replicating, though you'd need some analysis on whether it's cheaper in the long run | 21:40 |
| @kanzure | reagent cost comes later imho | 21:41 |
| @kanzure | right now the cost of a synthesizer dwarfs the cost of reagents for even a simple protein | 21:41 |
| yashgaroth | also you could maybe do light-based printing into the wells like for microarrays, and hope that incorrect oligos simply wouldn't get ligated during assembly | 21:41 |
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| @kanzure | washing a microarray correctly seems really hard and uninteresting to me | 21:42 |
| @kanzure | unless you can use a high powered laser to evaporate everything | 21:42 |
| @kanzure | cambrian genomics is using a laser to move beads out of one well and into (something unspecified) | 21:42 |
| @kanzure | anyway, no, i think that complicates it really | 21:43 |
| yashgaroth | was that optical tweezing or are they being secretive, I forget | 21:43 |
| @kanzure | "We're basically building a lot of custom optical / sequencing / laser gear to sample single molecules of a microarray pool and to cherry-pick out the correct ones. Instead of enzymatic tricks, we're doing physical separation upfront of the good from the bad, while simultaneously de-scrambling the ~10^5-10^6 pools into defined small assembly sets for very rapid, very high-throughput assembly of larger kilobase pieces." | 21:44 |
| yashgaroth | if you have a tiny-scale oligo synthesizer instead of a library, you can still incorporate the ligase-based assembly but you're just getting closer to traditional assembly | 21:45 |
| @kanzure | "The cost of phosphoramidites is really low (at a minimum) given that they're produced in china. The container the phosphoramidites come in can be more expensive than the contents. CpG isn't that expensive either... I mean let's take it to a ridiculous limit-point: an oligo synthesis run costs a few hundred dollars in reagents, maybe a thousand. You're working with a ~mole of material. Divide that by avogadro's number. 1e3/6e23 = about ... | 21:45 |
| @kanzure | ... a tenth of an attocent per monomer. If you had a magic daemon that coud assemble single-molecules, your reagent cost for a 100mer would be about 10 attocents. (We don't know how to make magic daemons yet, but I suspect that physics does allow for a mesoscopically-coupled polymerase that could act as a decently accurate 'molecular printer' if you coupled it to some single-molecule sequencing feedback.) Why does a bulk reagent limit the ... | 21:45 |
| @kanzure | ... ultimate cost? If you're efficient it doesn't have to." | 21:45 |
| @kanzure | "Reagents are expensive when you waste them. For traditional gene synthesis, the cost of oligos does dominate. Even the lowest-scale bulk synthesis reactions make about 1000x more material than is needed for a synthesis reaction. Microarray synthesis scales usage way down (though the amount of dna on a microarray spot is actually too low to use directly for reliable assembly, so some amount of post-processing is required) However, ... | 21:45 |
| @kanzure | ... microarrays jumble everything together and make the error-correction problem much more severe." | 21:45 |
| @kanzure | "With regards to enzymes/reagents don't think that the price you pay for them is going to be the price an industrial purchaser is going to pay- most endusers of anything in biology are paying large margins. What you're paying for as an enduser isn't the stuff in the tube, it's the quality control that guarantees the stuff in the tube will do what you hope it will, as well as the convenience of that little tube shipped to you the moment you ... | 21:45 |
| @kanzure | ... need it." | 21:45 |
| @kanzure | "Don't get fixated on a single aspect of the cost structure. Ingots of ultrapure silicon aren't cheap, but their cost is only distantly related to the price of a cpu. If you have a relatively fixed amount of cost for people and machines and reagents, the only way you get improved cost per unit is by making a shitload more units by using more efficient processes. That's the idea." | 21:45 |
| @kanzure | well anyway, i don't remember the single molecule stuff there. i think their idea might have changed once or twice. | 21:47 |
| @kanzure | i don't particularly care though | 21:47 |
| yashgaroth | dna synthesis is inherently small-scale for the next decade but I hope he's not relying too much on economies of scale | 21:48 |
| @kanzure | i think repliacting something more traditional (and then proceeding to hate it) is a good course of action | 21:48 |
| @kanzure | *replicating | 21:48 |
| @kanzure | hey so, for yeast cloning, what's the growth medium? | 21:49 |
| @kanzure | for some reason i always thought you meant "throw some yeast into a pile of dNTPs" but this doesn't make any sense. | 21:50 |
| yashgaroth | I haven't done much yeast work but they'll eat pretty much anything | 21:51 |
| yashgaroth | gonna be lazy and say powdered yeast extract | 21:51 |
| @kanzure | ~, | 21:56 |
| @kanzure | oops | 21:56 |
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