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| kyknos__ | paperbot, http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/03/01/medethics-2011-100411.short | 04:47 |
|---|---|---|
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/After-birth%20abortion%3A%20why%20should%20the%20baby%20live%3F.pdf | 04:47 |
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| eleitl | hi guys | 07:43 |
| kanzure | hello | 07:44 |
| eleitl | how's things? | 07:44 |
| kanzure | i think brainwallets are neat | 07:44 |
| eleitl | as long as your passphrase has enough entropy | 07:44 |
| kanzure | yes, that seems to be the difficult part | 07:45 |
| eleitl | you can't really remember high-entropy phrases reliable, so you have to write them down | 07:45 |
| eleitl | at which point you can just generate it all by machine, and print it out | 07:45 |
| eleitl | there's a JS page which can do it offline | 07:46 |
| eleitl | then you hit print, and have it all on paper, with optical barcodes to boot | 07:46 |
| kanzure | where was that page? | 07:46 |
| eleitl | isn't this one available offline: http://brainwallet.org/ | 07:47 |
| eleitl | a friend of mine has a working copy, I never bothered to save it | 07:48 |
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| JayDugger | https://github.com/brainwallet/brainwallet.github.com | 09:01 |
| JayDugger | I don't recognize some of the cryptocurrencies available in the pulldown on brainwallet. | 09:02 |
| JayDugger | Each of them has a link, so off to learn something new. | 09:02 |
| JayDugger | Good morning, eleitl. | 09:02 |
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| kanzure | "The Neuromorphic Computing sub-project of the HBP will design, implement and operate a Neuromorphic Computing Platform that allows neuroscientists and theoreticians to perform experiments with configurable neuromorphic computing systems. The platform will provide two systems. The first is based on physical (analogue or mixed-signal) emulations of brain models, running 10^4 times faster than real time, and ideally suited for studies of ... | 09:17 |
| kanzure | ... synaptic plasticity, development and learning. The second system is based on numerical models running in real time on digital multicore architectures, and is suited for problems that require hard real-time performance, such as robotics. The role of the Neuroinformatics group at UNIC is to develop software that will make the neuromorphic platform accessible to researchers in neuroscience, cognitive sciences and computer science, and to ... | 09:17 |
| kanzure | ... investigate the capabilities and performance of the neuromorphic computing systems." | 09:17 |
| rkos | it seems like a big challenge though | 09:19 |
| kanzure | which part? | 09:19 |
| rkos | building a simulation model of the brain that is | 09:19 |
| kanzure | it's not a simulation | 09:19 |
| rkos | the american version got some calculations done and what they seem to be facing is a pretty big problem imo http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/26/science/proposed-brain-mapping-project-faces-significant-hurdles.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 | 09:20 |
| rkos | the complete brain generates about 300,000 petabytes of data each year. | 09:20 |
| rkos | The Large Hadron Collider in Geneva generates about 10 petabytes of data annually. | 09:21 |
| kanzure | none of those statements or anything in the article indicates a "big problem" | 09:21 |
| rkos | its more data than we have the means to deal with | 09:22 |
| kanzure | that's not true | 09:22 |
| ParahSai1in | http://news.thomasnet.com/IMT/2013/09/04/selective-laser-sintering-patent-expiration-will-not-be-a-game-changer/ | 09:23 |
| kanzure | if there is any challenge in emulating human brains it is not going to be data storage. it's more things like "getting enough people to agree to investigate a sufficient number of types of neurons with standard electrophysiology setups." | 09:23 |
| kanzure | managing exabytes of data is relatively simple in comparison | 09:24 |
| kanzure | or hooking up hardware for such | 09:24 |
| rkos | but theres 2 programs with millions of funding trying to do this now | 09:24 |
| kanzure | that nytimes article seems to conflate the connectome project with the human brain project, which isn't a good thing to do | 09:25 |
| rkos | im not saying that it cant be of any use im just saying that the whole thing itself is just more than we can currently deal with | 09:25 |
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| rkos | HGP had great results and produced good stuff but we didnt figure out the genome through HGP either | 09:26 |
| kanzure | what does "figure out the genome through HGP" mean | 09:26 |
| rkos | deliver on all the promises that were made at the time | 09:27 |
| rkos | curing all diseases and whatnot... | 09:27 |
| kanzure | their promises were something like "we promise to sequence 10,000 genes" or something | 09:27 |
| kanzure | no i think that was the journalism | 09:27 |
| kanzure | this is why you shouldn't read the news | 09:27 |
| rkos | thats not really true | 09:27 |
| rkos | you shouldnt think of the scientists as somekind of angels | 09:27 |
| kanzure | if you go look at the grant proposals i doubt they claimed that all forms of cancer will be cured just because you can sequence a handful of genes | 09:27 |
| kanzure | i never said anything about angels, fuck you | 09:28 |
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| rkos | well arent you an angry one | 09:28 |
| kanzure | it is infuriating to talk with you and now you're making up statements about angels | 09:28 |
| kanzure | yes of course i'm angry | 09:28 |
| kanzure | all of your messages are full of shit | 09:28 |
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| rkos | writing grant proposals was just part of getting their funding | 09:28 |
| rkos | especially those on the corporate sector did make lots of claims about this stuff | 09:28 |
| rkos | i recommend checking out biocapital | 09:29 |
| kanzure | iirc those were not officially part of the human genome project, yo | 09:29 |
| fredox | thats what marketers do | 09:29 |
| rkos | http://www.dukeupress.edu/Biocapital/ | 09:29 |
| kanzure | the human genome project was officially just the academic labs | 09:29 |
| rkos | well not officially | 09:29 |
| kanzure | not venter's company etc. | 09:29 |
| kanzure | well, sorry dude. words have meaning in this channel. | 09:29 |
| rkos | but they worked together helping each other make money unofficially | 09:29 |
| rkos | your meaning that is? | 09:30 |
| kanzure | sigh | 09:30 |
| rkos | words only have given meaning, or constructed meaning | 09:30 |
| kanzure | at least i don't conflate "figuring out the genome" with "marketing promises", wtf man | 09:31 |
| rkos | trying to just shut out part of what people are trying to say with them leaves you with a smaller world | 09:31 |
| kanzure | so, if you're right and i'm wrong, it would mean that i can't deduce what people are intending to say from their words, but if we go the other way around, it just means you're an idiot, which is a much smaller price that i can afford to pay | 09:31 |
| rkos | you probably thought i was making an attack against you or the brain project that you supported, i was just making a general claim of tiredness about these promises | 09:32 |
| kanzure | this is nothing about attacks | 09:32 |
| rkos | you cant deduce what people are intending to say with their wods for certain | 09:33 |
| rkos | thats an illusion | 09:33 |
| kanzure | you are conflating crap you read in the news with the project | 09:33 |
| rkos | you can just keep thinking of me as an idiot on the outskirts of your shrinking world of words | 09:33 |
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| rkos | you think the project doesnt benefit from the media? | 09:33 |
| kanzure | why should i care if it benefits or not? | 09:33 |
| rkos | this is public funding we're talking about | 09:33 |
| kanzure | why should i care if it's public or private funding ? | 09:34 |
| kanzure | whether it's benefiting from media or private/public funding has little barring on whether or not you're interpreting the promises correctly | 09:34 |
| rkos | because those public extravagant claims build public support which builds public funding | 09:35 |
| kanzure | can you explain how that links back to your original complaint? i'm really not seeing it: | 09:35 |
| kanzure | 09:20 < rkos> the american version got some calculations done and what they seem to be facing is a pretty big problem imo | 09:35 |
| rkos | that the general tech salvation spirit goes overboard because of the public extravaganza built in newspapers and fictional media and i try to offer some counter for it for the sake of diversity | 09:36 |
| kanzure | what tech salvation spirit! is this about angels again? | 09:36 |
| rkos | you're purposefully being obtuse arent you? | 09:37 |
| kanzure | no | 09:37 |
| rkos | well can i ask you why are you coming at me with your stuff now? | 09:37 |
| kanzure | at this point it seems like you're jumping around in the conversation a lot and it's really hard to follow | 09:37 |
| rkos | i just pasted a link which claimed it has problems and then you go on an attack on me, why do you care? | 09:38 |
| rkos | well whats the conversation all about kanzure | 09:38 |
| kanzure | i assumed you were using the link as evidence and i was trying to explain why your reasoning was wrong | 09:38 |
| rkos | evidence for what? | 09:38 |
| kanzure | the position you held | 09:39 |
| rkos | it is evidence for itself which is the only claim i made, that it is | 09:39 |
| kanzure | what? | 09:39 |
| rkos | the position of the newspaper article? | 09:39 |
| kanzure | for the position you mentioned prior to you dropping the link | 09:39 |
| rkos | the position was linked to the article | 09:40 |
| rkos | what would you classify as a big problem then? | 09:40 |
| kanzure | i already gave my opinion on that: | 09:41 |
| kanzure | 09:23 < kanzure> if there is any challenge in emulating human brains it is not going to be data storage. it's more things like "getting enough people to agree to investigate a sufficient number of types of neurons with standard electrophysiology setups." | 09:41 |
| kanzure | 09:24 < kanzure> managing exabytes of data is relatively simple in comparison | 09:41 |
| kanzure | 09:24 < kanzure> or hooking up hardware for such | 09:41 |
| rkos | well but as i said there are 2 well funded projects for it so thats not really the problem | 09:41 |
| rkos | and is it really simple to process exabytes of data into something usable? | 09:42 |
| rkos | i assume of the 10 petabytes LHC goes through in a year much of it isnt really integrated into anything | 09:42 |
| eleitl | good morning, JayDugger. | 09:43 |
| kanzure | why do you make that assumption | 09:43 |
| eleitl | I missed some nice conversation, apparently. | 09:43 |
| kanzure | eleitl: hardly | 09:43 |
| rkos | why would i not make that assumption? do they really make something with all of the data they get from their experiments? | 09:43 |
| eleitl | beats fighting with an NFS mount on VMWare | 09:44 |
| eleitl | what's the beef with brain simulation? | 09:44 |
| kanzure | eleitl: hey, that's almost exactly what's on my todo list today.. | 09:44 |
| kanzure | eleitl: dunno, he's incomprehensible and full of it | 09:44 |
| eleitl | OmniOS+napp-it=NFS export | 09:45 |
| rkos | you just dont want to talk to me then? | 09:45 |
| eleitl | rkos, what is the issue with the amount of data? | 09:45 |
| kanzure | rkos: i am finding it extremely hard to communicate with you, sorry | 09:45 |
| rkos | how do you process it all? | 09:45 |
| eleitl | that's live data, so it's just sitting there, simmering along | 09:45 |
| rkos | but you have to integrate into somekind of model | 09:45 |
| eleitl | you process it by build a large honking n-torus of many millions to billions of nodes | 09:46 |
| ParahSai1in | is this guy delinquentme? | 09:46 |
| eleitl | the model is granted, I thought you were talking about the hardware/managment aspect | 09:46 |
| eleitl | of course we don't have good models yet | 09:46 |
| kanzure | ParahSai1in: no, he is definitely not delinquentme. he seems to be capable of talking about a *similar* topic for more than 5 minutes. so he can't be the same person. | 09:46 |
| eleitl | have you looked at the Kwabena/Spaun collaboration? | 09:47 |
| kanzure | eleitl: we don't have good models, but it's easy to sum a trillion numbers with physical hardware | 09:47 |
| rkos | whats that? | 09:47 |
| rkos | i dont mean storing 300 exabytes but making something out of it | 09:47 |
| kanzure | eleitl: it's not like we forgot to write the device drivers or something | 09:47 |
| eleitl | Spaun is a toy brain model, and Boahen will make it run in realtime | 09:47 |
| rkos | and im pretty sure that storing 300 exabytes a year is a big strain too | 09:48 |
| eleitl | the data is live, so it has to live in memory | 09:48 |
| eleitl | your storage is just for checkpoints, and a few trajectory frames, maybe | 09:48 |
| rkos | havent heard of spaun kwabena or boahen but ill check it out | 09:48 |
| eleitl | Kwabena Boahen is a hybrid hardware guy, very sensible | 09:49 |
| rkos | what do you mean that its live | 09:49 |
| eleitl | it lives in core, not disk | 09:49 |
| eleitl | disk is effectively static | 09:49 |
| eleitl | so your limit is core, not disk | 09:49 |
| eleitl | am I making sense? | 09:50 |
| rkos | can the core handle much more than the disk then? | 09:50 |
| eleitl | it can handle less, which is why it's your bottleneck | 09:50 |
| kanzure | iirc information density per unit static storage is higher and is expected to be higher for quite a while longer | 09:51 |
| eleitl | exascale is about ops | 09:51 |
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| eleitl | kanzure: exactly | 09:51 |
| rkos | but well if i understand the simulation itself will be limited by the cores capacities but the 300 exobytes/year will have to be stored on disks somewhere or just lost | 09:51 |
| kanzure | it's not a simulation, like i said the first time | 09:51 |
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| rkos | 300 exobytes i understood to be the output of the simulation | 09:52 |
| rkos | what kind of computing the simulation itself will require i dont know | 09:52 |
| eleitl | you can't store the whole trajectory, so you have to consider it a numeric experiment | 09:52 |
| eleitl | you have to instrument it, and record from your probes | 09:52 |
| eleitl | you can also extract observables, which are all far more compact than your giant glob of data | 09:53 |
| eleitl | you only need space for checkpoints, and maybe a few trajectory frames | 09:53 |
| eleitl | so 10-100x of your core would be enough | 09:53 |
| rkos | isnt what they try to do take all the observable qualities of the brain and make a computerized model of those qualities? | 09:53 |
| kanzure | they are emulating individual neurons and subcomponents of neurons | 09:54 |
| eleitl | they're loading the simulation with data from biology, and switch on the physics | 09:54 |
| eleitl | it's much easier to record from live data than from live animals | 09:54 |
| kanzure | eleitl: or at least that's their claim. i worry sometimes that their scientists will opt to cheat... | 09:54 |
| eleitl | try putting in a million probes into a rat | 09:54 |
| eleitl | can't be done | 09:54 |
| kanzure | gladly | 09:54 |
| eleitl | exascale will be a very hard engineering challenge, so they will have to work with that | 09:55 |
| kanzure | arguably exascale is not anywhere near the largest challenge | 09:55 |
| rkos | whats the checkpoints and trajectory frames | 09:55 |
| eleitl | hybrid and Spinnaker-like approaches are also far more interesting than generic exascale iron | 09:55 |
| eleitl | a checkpoint is where you write an image you can later resume from | 09:56 |
| eleitl | just like suspend/resume in your notebook | 09:56 |
| eleitl | when your jobs are many months, you can't afford to restart from scratch | 09:56 |
| rkos | notebook? | 09:56 |
| kanzure | computer | 09:56 |
| eleitl | when your system state is written to nonvolatile storage | 09:56 |
| rkos | you mean you save something? | 09:56 |
| eleitl | yes, precisely | 09:56 |
| kanzure | it is a common feature of laptops, netbooks, notebooks | 09:57 |
| rkos | and trajectory frames? | 09:57 |
| eleitl | in case of simulations, you write checkpoints periodically | 09:57 |
| eleitl | your system state is evolving along a trajectory in state space | 09:57 |
| eleitl | in discrete time steps, it's evolving along frames, just like in the movie | 09:58 |
| rkos | movie? | 09:58 |
| eleitl | if you write a few frames to disk, you can look at changes | 09:58 |
| rkos | oh frames in movies? | 09:58 |
| eleitl | movie, film | 09:58 |
| eleitl | celluloid, yes | 09:58 |
| rkos | so you store the previous states? | 09:58 |
| kanzure | not usually | 09:58 |
| eleitl | you can also instrument your running simulations, and only record things of interest | 09:58 |
| kanzure | you don't store all previous states because that would be too costly | 09:59 |
| eleitl | you can't dump every frame to disk, that would be prohibitive | 09:59 |
| eleitl | so you select a given window of interest | 09:59 |
| kanzure | eleitl: how about this one, http://ms-brainwallet.github.io/ | 10:00 |
| rkos | so the model of the brain starts with taking empirical data by observing neurons? inserting that data into somekind of computer in which that data goes through different states of which some are saved as checkpoints? | 10:01 |
| eleitl | kanzure: never seen it before, look at the code whether you can trust it | 10:01 |
| eleitl | rkos: you're building numerical models of live neurons | 10:02 |
| eleitl | ideally, you're simulating the same system you've observed before | 10:02 |
| kanzure | eleitl: i think it would be interesting to monitor for simple deterministic addresses, like dictionary words -> btc address and then spend when something enters the blockchain on that address. | 10:02 |
| rkos | well they arent going to contain all the properties of live neurons because we probably havent observed every aspect of neurons | 10:02 |
| eleitl | rkos: science starts somewhere | 10:03 |
| kanzure | there are electrophysiology studies of many thousands of types of neurons | 10:03 |
| rkos | yeah i know i like the idea | 10:03 |
| eleitl | right now we've got a glut of structure which does things we don't yet understand | 10:03 |
| eleitl | especially, large scale dynamics need a certain system size to emerge | 10:03 |
| kanzure | this is how you end up with things like http://channelpedia.net/ | 10:03 |
| eleitl | so, you have to scan large biological systems, and build rather large computers to run these | 10:04 |
| eleitl | and then you'll see what you'll see | 10:04 |
| eleitl | if your simulated system starts doing the same things as your wet system, you know you're on the right track | 10:04 |
| kanzure | yeesh "Currently, Channelpedia contains ~180,000 abstracts related to ion channels from Pubmed." | 10:04 |
| eleitl | only | 10:04 |
| rkos | but it seems like an extremely bruteforce way to deal with mental illness | 10:04 |
| kanzure | it's not for mental illness | 10:05 |
| * eleitl does only care about immortality | 10:05 | |
| eleitl | you die, get scanned, and live happily ever after | 10:05 |
| rkos | like i like the science aspect but the stuff you hear eg obama say about the BRAIN initiative and that sort of stuff just doesnt seem sensible | 10:05 |
| eleitl | why are you beleiving anything that politicians say? | 10:06 |
| rkos | im not believing it like i said | 10:06 |
| rkos | but it does matter what they say | 10:06 |
| eleitl | only results do matter | 10:07 |
| eleitl | and results cost money | 10:07 |
| rkos | thats where the money comes from and it would be nice if people wouldnt be going crazy about all this science stuff | 10:07 |
| rkos | and the money coming is largely influenced about whats said in the media | 10:07 |
| eleitl | as long as the money comes in I wouldn't worry about why | 10:07 |
| eleitl | politicians worry about credit, so they will say anything that will make them look good | 10:08 |
| eleitl | so, you can ignore that part | 10:08 |
| eleitl | political science is almost that bad, unless you can look behind the scenes | 10:08 |
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| eleitl | no neuroscientist will be caught saying things about personal immortality in public | 10:08 |
| eleitl | whatever their motivations, they're on our team | 10:09 |
| eleitl | oh, got to decamp in about 5 min | 10:09 |
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| rkos | theres little that people feel like they can say in public, but ill see you later cya | 10:10 |
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| eleitl | byes | 10:13 |
| kanzure | seeya | 10:13 |
| fredox | eleitl: on a long enough timeline the survival rate for anyone drops to zero | 10:21 |
| chris_99 | what's that from fredox | 10:22 |
| fredox | i think you know | 10:22 |
| chris_99 | i just googled it heh, i do now | 10:22 |
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| kanzure | hah http://b.agilob.net/do-not-use-brainwallets-this-is-why/ people are silly | 10:41 |
| kanzure | why would anyone pick a simple passphrase | 10:41 |
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| kanzure | /win 14 | 10:45 |
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| eudoxia | its like every month some idiot picks a six character password and declares that the era of passwords is over and nobody should use them | 10:49 |
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| kanzure | you guys are all suckers my password has been aaaaaaaaaaaaa since forever | 10:57 |
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| @archels | yeah, I don't know. I was skeptic about the "let's just measure it all" philosophy behind the BRAIN project. But maybe that will actually get us somewhere--tell us something about the dynamics, temporal relationships, correlations, what have you. | 12:08 |
| kanzure | well, it's certainly true that neurons behave differently, and this has to be accounted for somehow, right? | 12:10 |
| kanzure | your pyramidal cells aren't the same in all the places | 12:11 |
| @archels | indeed, the essential bit would be to correlate it with morphology and biomarkers | 12:20 |
| rkos | well surely the hbp/brain projects will help industries and provide good data, but i think that ultimately the brain is itself a model that doesnt contain the whole mind, so its unlikely to solve any philosophical mysteries | 13:09 |
| rkos | i like to think of the dream of being recreated electronically just as being expanded electronically, not really recreated | 13:12 |
| kanzure | sorry, but we don't believe in mind in here, get out | 13:15 |
| kanzure | it's as bad as souls | 13:15 |
| rkos | well im not going to get out because of that | 13:15 |
| rkos | i lay claim to my mind | 13:15 |
| kanzure | well, perhaps not as bad, it's a little bit less awful, but not dramatically | 13:15 |
| kanzure | you can lay claim to your brain but i haven't found evidence of a mind yet | 13:15 |
| eudoxia | omg who cares about philosophy | 13:15 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: what have you been up to? | 13:16 |
| rkos | its information its useful | 13:16 |
| kanzure | it is anti-information | 13:16 |
| eudoxia | if the model quacks like me and codes like me, i wouldn't care | 13:16 |
| eudoxia | (especially cause i would be a descerebrated corpse but w/e) | 13:16 |
| kanzure | if i start quakcing i'm not sure what to think | 13:16 |
| kanzure | *quacking | 13:16 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: not much, some code here and there | 13:16 |
| rkos | you shouldnt just base your attitude on knee jerk reactions based on the social groupings youve ended up in | 13:17 |
| kanzure | they are not knee jerk | 13:17 |
| kanzure | if you consider it you will find that these are the only thoughts that make sense (using evidence to inform yourself) | 13:17 |
| rkos | well have you built up anything to sustain a hate of philosophy? because id be interested in hearing that philosophy of yours... | 13:18 |
| eudoxia | well my philosophy when it comes to WBE is "shut up and simulate" | 13:18 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: simulation is not emulation | 13:18 |
| rkos | its better to live with the stress of senselesness, that doesnt make you unable to still keep using things like always | 13:18 |
| kanzure | rkos: what? | 13:18 |
| kanzure | rkos: neither of your last two messages make sense to me | 13:19 |
| kanzure | rkos: most people are really bad at philosophy, which is why it's mostly-banned in here | 13:19 |
| rkos | well the first one: you have to build somekind of argumentation to reason to yourself why you have such an attitude, and doing this is philosophy | 13:19 |
| eudoxia | i think 'stress of senselessness' meant being a brain in a jar | 13:20 |
| rkos | i dont think you can transform the world without having somekind of skepticism about you | 13:20 |
| eudoxia | but any brain emulation is going to include a simulation of the environment | 13:20 |
| kanzure | rkos: let me guess, do you also believe in consciousness? | 13:21 |
| rkos | stress of senselessness i mean when you question everything to the point that black becomes white, but the world still keeps being how it is | 13:21 |
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| rkos | yes | 13:21 |
| rkos | you have to be aware of the abyss around the systems by which you live your life to really appreciate them and understand their limits and what can be done to expand them | 13:22 |
| rkos | i personally think that transcending humanity means transcending other limits than just natural | 13:23 |
| rkos | social, ideological, psychological | 13:24 |
| rkos | you can just think of me as crazy | 13:25 |
| kanzure | uh.. | 13:26 |
| eudoxia | but that doesn't really preclude brain emulation | 13:26 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: i don't think he has a consistent conversation he's replying to. | 13:26 |
| eudoxia | you can work on transcending some psychological thing you have as an emulated brain | 13:27 |
| rkos | but i dont think the whole of ourselves is contained in a brain | 13:27 |
| kanzure | correct, your brain is attached to your body | 13:27 |
| rkos | i think theres more to this world and that theres always going to be more to this world than what we've managed to build explanatory models of | 13:28 |
| eudoxia | people with transected spines still have their old personalities | 13:28 |
| rkos | in a way the brain itself is a model created by many brains | 13:29 |
| eudoxia | :| | 13:29 |
| rkos | which is why i prefer to think of mind because that is what i immediately perceive | 13:29 |
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| rkos | and i dont immediately perceive a brain | 13:30 |
| kanzure | no, you don't perceive a mind | 13:30 |
| eudoxia | how do you perceive a mind | 13:30 |
| eudoxia | i can't taste my tongue | 13:30 |
| rkos | well a consciousness? | 13:30 |
| kanzure | ugh | 13:30 |
| rkos | consciousness/mind/soul all the same! | 13:30 |
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| kanzure | llvm documentation isn't too bad | 16:35 |
| ParahSailin | what you doing with llvm | 16:35 |
| kanzure | nothing yet, i just have this feeling that i'm going to end up writing some stupid code generator in the next year (reasons unknown) and i'd hate to manually repeat half of llvm or something | 16:36 |
| ParahSailin | youre making a compiler? | 16:38 |
| kanzure | well, hopefully not | 16:38 |
| kanzure | but i did write that shitty preprocessor for those pokemon games.. | 16:39 |
| kanzure | which i completely regret.. | 16:39 |
| kanzure | i found out yesterday that someone modified the preprocessor to use eval() in python for a handful of files | 16:40 |
| kanzure | also for reverse engineering reasons in general | 16:42 |
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| foucist | kanzure: or anyone else: i recently saw a link about converting something like a speaker into something like ECG, i can't remember what it was, anyone else saw that? | 17:21 |
| foucist | it was some simple/cheap way of converting something that people typically already have | 17:22 |
| kanzure | there was something about a speaker being used to control the axis positioning of a 3d printer, does that count | 17:23 |
| foucist | nope :P | 17:24 |
| foucist | it was some sort of cheap/easy hack to get a biofeedback thing | 17:24 |
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| foucist | kanzure: http://www.nanoengineer-1.net/ (Can't contact the database server: Unknown database 'nanoengi_mw' (localhost)) | 17:45 |
| kanzure | i have a database backup somewhere. i was able to retrieve backups was i never administering that site. | 17:47 |
| kanzure | http://blog.cmpxchg8b.com/2012/09/fun-with-constrained-programming.html "RAR files can contain bytecode for a simple x86-like virtual machine called the RarVM. This is designed to provide filters (preprocessors) to perform some reversible transformation on input data to increase redundancy, and thus improve compression." | 17:47 |
| kanzure | "simple x86-like" | 17:47 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/taviso/rarvmtools | 17:48 |
| ParahSailin | wow, rar files are turing complete? | 17:50 |
| foucist | neat | 17:50 |
| kanzure | now let's do llvm things to compile things to rarvm | 17:56 |
| entelechios | i been helping someone procure polaritonics equipment for hemoencephalography | 17:58 |
| entelechios | it was new to me until he started asking questions | 17:58 |
| entelechios | now that's a dope system | 17:58 |
| entelechios | oh hell thanks for reminding me about llvm/clang kanzure | 17:58 |
| entelechios | i was trying to compile chromium on debian cid and libc was too new | 17:58 |
| entelechios | so i figured i got work to do | 17:59 |
| entelechios | but now my work i think could go for devtools | 17:59 |
| entelechios | on chromium | 17:59 |
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| kanzure | i have spent an unfortunately large amount of time compiling webkit | 18:01 |
| kanzure | haven't done chromium yet but a large chunk of the build system is the same (or it was, until recently) | 18:01 |
| reentry | its called Blink now | 18:04 |
| reentry | like the blink tag :) | 18:04 |
| kanzure | chromium is still called chromium | 18:04 |
| reentry | I mean the engine in it | 18:04 |
| reentry | I'm compiling the new version of chromium right now | 18:05 |
| reentry | heh | 18:05 |
| reentry | crap failed | 18:05 |
| kanzure | really? you should meet entelechios | 18:05 |
| reentry | gupnp-dlna-gst failed it heh | 18:06 |
| foucist | what? chromium has upnp? | 18:10 |
| ParahSailin | you have a headless webkit yet? | 18:11 |
| foucist | ah for headless | 18:13 |
| foucist | nm | 18:13 |
| kanzure | eh, depends on how you define headless | 18:13 |
| ParahSailin | this is what you were hacking webkit on? | 18:14 |
| kanzure | a number of things | 18:18 |
| kanzure | combining the javascript event loop with the event loop in v8 (node) | 18:18 |
| kanzure | got javascript variables sharing references with python variables | 18:18 |
| kanzure | so python callbacks in webkit javascript contexts and javascript callbacks (like from the page) in python | 18:18 |
| kanzure | these are not all working, just what i was working on | 18:19 |
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| foucist | kanzure: so bypassing internal v8 to hook it to node's v8 ? | 18:21 |
| entelechios | reentry: what OS | 18:22 |
| entelechios | i havent built it on anything other than linux | 18:22 |
| reentry | gentoo | 18:22 |
| entelechios | just emerging it then? | 18:22 |
| reentry | yeah | 18:22 |
| entelechios | which build | 18:22 |
| reentry | just rebuilding to the new one | 18:22 |
| reentry | just came out | 18:22 |
| entelechios | the stable build? | 18:22 |
| reentry | it built on one machine not the other | 18:22 |
| reentry | nah never stable | 18:22 |
| entelechios | have fun building the lkgr hahaha | 18:22 |
| entelechios | try #chromium tho or #chromium-help or whatever i forget | 18:23 |
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| reentry | ahh I am fixing it | 18:23 |
| reentry | I fixed it on my other machine I just forget how | 18:23 |
| entelechios | if i were you just as an enduser and not a dev i'd simply just score 31.0.1650.48 | 18:23 |
| entelechios | via svn | 18:23 |
| entelechios | and compile that | 18:23 |
| entelechios | http://googlechromereleases.blogspot.com/2013/11/stable-channel-update.html | 18:24 |
| reentry | hehe | 18:24 |
| reentry | dude I run 31 already | 18:24 |
| reentry | trying for 32 | 18:24 |
| kanzure | foucist: yes. there's no good webkit bindings for node. | 18:24 |
| reentry | its almost built on my htpc | 18:24 |
| kanzure | foucist: webkit is javascriptcore, and used to have v8 support. but anyway, same is true of blink. | 18:24 |
| kanzure | foucist: they have different event loops, and you can't refer to a javascript object outside of the different "javascript contexts" | 18:24 |
| kanzure | but if they are both v8 i don't see why not just use both | 18:25 |
| kanzure | *use the same one in both places | 18:25 |
| foucist | btw, speaking of headless webkit/upnp-dlna.. what would hte client be? another chromium instance on a different machine? | 18:25 |
| kanzure | the client would be some pile of javascript or python | 18:25 |
| kanzure | https://gist.github.com/kanzure/6581415 | 18:25 |
| foucist | well, i'm referring to the upnp-dlna bit specifically ? | 18:25 |
| kanzure | there's one example where i have python able to interrogate js variables | 18:26 |
| foucist | honestly just found out about upnp/dlna pretty recently heh | 18:26 |
| reentry | well they removed gps support | 18:26 |
| reentry | maybe it is built in | 18:26 |
| reentry | probably the webrtc code pulls in the upnp bindings | 18:26 |
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| reentry | I had to install one older version of gupnp-dlna | 18:40 |
| reentry | to install the newer version | 18:40 |
| reentry | hah | 18:40 |
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| -!- augur [~augur@pool-71-191-99-118.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 23:46 | |
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| --- Log closed Thu Nov 14 00:00:24 2013 | ||
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