| --- Log opened Fri Mar 28 00:00:44 2014 | ||
| --- Log closed Fri Mar 28 00:56:56 2014 | ||
| --- Log opened Fri Mar 28 00:57:15 2014 | ||
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| -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA | http://gnusha.org/logs http://diyhpl.us/wiki http://groups.google.com/group/diybio | banned by the Federal Death Administration | official paperbot fan club | 00:57 | |
| -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Sat Mar 23 20:40:45 2013] | 00:57 | |
| [Users ##hplusroadmap] | 00:57 | |
| [ _sol_ ] [ d3vz3r0 ] [ jrayhawk ] [ saurik ] | 00:57 | |
| [ Adifex|zzz] [ dbolser ] [ juri_ ] [ sivoais ] | 00:57 | |
| [ archels ] [ devrandom ] [ juul ] [ smeaaagle ] | 00:57 | |
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| [ Baube ] [ entelechios ] [ ParahSailin ] [ superkuh ] | 00:57 | |
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| -!- Irssi: ##hplusroadmap: Total of 60 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 60 normal] | 00:57 | |
| -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010 | 00:57 | |
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| rkos | uuh hi, how does paperbot work? | 04:09 |
|---|---|---|
| rkos | http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dta.1620/abstract | 04:12 |
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| chris_99 | paperbot doesn't seem to be here atm | 04:45 |
| rkos | kay kay | 05:00 |
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| dbolser | is there a counterparty channel? | 07:38 |
| Baube | your local church ? (:p) | 07:39 |
| dbolser | it it xpc? | 07:40 |
| dbolser | can anyone send me some test coin? | 07:40 |
| dbolser | xcp... I'm so dyslexic | 07:41 |
| dbolser | can anyone send me xcp-test to n1nfwUdsb6qTMhEgTGzS9EUyz9nuuX7hHD ? <-- Address on testnet | 07:44 |
| dbolser | I'm not yet running counterpartyd, but that doesn't matter right? | 07:45 |
| dbolser | does anyone play double spend attacks on test net ;-) | 07:45 |
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| jrayhawk | dbolser: irc://irc.counterparty.co/#xcp | 13:21 |
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| kanzure | i wonder if anyone is doing trachtenberg-style rsa mental arithmetic | 14:42 |
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| benkay | o/ kanzure | 14:51 |
| kanzure | hello | 14:51 |
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| kanzure | someone reverse engineered tecan's protocol and is trying to sell software http://www.molboxllc.com/products.html | 15:13 |
| dbolser | kanzure: how do I get xcp-test? | 15:17 |
| kanzure | dbolser: you ask the xcp people i think, or you send testnet bitcoin to the testnet burn address | 15:21 |
| kanzure | dbolser: honestly i think that's a boring way to go | 15:21 |
| kanzure | dbolser: i just setup a small vm with bitcoin in regtest mode, then run counterparty connected to regtest bitcoin | 15:22 |
| kanzure | dbolser: and modify the blocks for the burn period so that it can start at block 1 of regtest bitcoin | 15:22 |
| kanzure | this way i can control the creation of blocks without mining | 15:22 |
| kanzure | "plug and play vineyard sensor system" http://smartvineyards.net/ | 15:37 |
| dbolser | kanzure: hehe... I'm too noob to do all that | 15:39 |
| dbolser | I'm asking in xcp but so far no response | 15:39 |
| dbolser | kanzure: unless you can set up a how-to? | 15:41 |
| kanzure | i don't see you in #xcp on irc.counterparty.co | 15:41 |
| dbolser | oh, sorry, I'm on freenode | 15:41 |
| * dbolser joins | 15:41 | |
| kanzure | go find bitcoin testnet in a box, get the docker container, and then blow away its blockchain and run it in regtest mode instead of testnet mode | 15:41 |
| dbolser | kanzure: I don't argue that it sounds simple ;-) | 15:42 |
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| kanzure | you.. quit? | 15:42 |
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| dbolser | bah... /server vs. /connect | 15:43 |
| dbolser | jrayhawk: ty | 15:43 |
| kanzure | dbolser: https://index.docker.io/u/freewil/bitcoin-testnet-box/ | 15:46 |
| dbolser | kanzure: ty | 15:47 |
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| kanzure | ParahSailin: give me a good counter argument to "cloud biology" | 18:29 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: "well you can just take a sample with a swab and mail it into the API-controllable lab, so therefore you don't need any equipment ever" | 18:30 |
| ParahSailin | fuck pipetting, i say good | 18:33 |
| kanzure | so there will just be one massive labcorp? | 18:33 |
| kanzure | why isn't there just one massive "printing" corp? e.g. a single lonely kinkos building that everyone mails to and receives mail from for all their printing needs. | 18:34 |
| ParahSailin | printing seems a lot easier that generalized fluid handling | 18:36 |
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| kanzure | i guess any specialized equipment could be mailed in using 80/20 structures | 18:39 |
| kanzure | some rack size like data centers | 18:39 |
| ParahSailin | a 1U rack for biology equipment? now there its going a little into fantasy land | 18:41 |
| kanzure | surely there's an argument for individual or separate labs | 18:41 |
| kanzure | otherwise the entire industry would have consolidated ages ago | 18:41 |
| ParahSailin | and give up free undergrads? | 18:42 |
| ParahSailin | i think lab robot development is just pretty slow | 18:43 |
| ParahSailin | and there arent any lab robots that will grind up cow ear tags | 18:43 |
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| ParahSailin | i dont think there will be coloc, but i think a lot of people are ready to give up human pipette error | 18:45 |
| kanzure | pipetting robots can be done locally though | 18:46 |
| kanzure | i keep hearing the "just use mail order dna synthesis" argument | 18:46 |
| kanzure | and transcriptic.com is obviously going in the biology lab services in the cloud maybe programmable direction | 18:47 |
| ParahSailin | ah well if by cloud you mean one national robot center, probably not | 18:47 |
| kanzure | right, and i wanted to figure out reasonable arguments for the "probably not" part | 18:48 |
| ParahSailin | amazon's got at least a dozen data centers | 18:49 |
| kanzure | well ok, that's because of workload and capacity planning reasons | 18:49 |
| ParahSailin | geographical latency is not a factor? | 18:49 |
| kanzure | load handling might count under geographical latency.. maybe. | 18:50 |
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| ParahSailin | if speed of light were not a factor, they'd have one data center in iceland where electricity is extremely cheap and cooling is free | 18:51 |
| kanzure | also something about engineering the single points of failure out of the design | 18:52 |
| kanzure | latency is a pretty bad reason | 18:52 |
| kanzure | overnight shipping from another lab is a thing | 18:52 |
| kanzure | and even in some universities they centralize all of their mouse work to the mouse facility | 18:53 |
| ParahSailin | shipping samples can be pretty expensive | 18:57 |
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| kanzure | cheaper than buying equipment | 18:57 |
| kanzure | or cheaper than fucking up your gels forever and ever | 18:57 |
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| kanzure | a lot of lab protocols require fine motor skills that aren't going to be replicated in hardware any time soon | 18:58 |
| ParahSailin | i mean shipping it to one central facility vs shipping it to the local lab | 18:58 |
| kanzure | and i would say that a lot of the high skilled stuff will always be created faster than robots will be programmed to do it | 18:58 |
| kanzure | it would be nice to stop making up bullshit protocols that require special trained labor just to conduct the rituals | 18:58 |
| ParahSailin | i dont think theres much economies of scale in having 1000 independently operating robots in kansas city vs having local branches with 50 robots each | 18:59 |
| ParahSailin | its not like a blast furnace | 19:00 |
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| kanzure | but then why hasn't one giant megacorp happened yet? 1000 independently operating robots/gradstudents/whatevers | 19:10 |
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| ParahSailin | all this stuff happens in university labs | 19:13 |
| kanzure | why are there microscopes in each lab instead of just one super imaging lab somewhere that you send samples to | 19:14 |
| kanzure | always problems with repositioning the sample | 19:15 |
| ParahSailin | optics is 16th century tech | 19:15 |
| kanzure | so what? | 19:15 |
| ParahSailin | its easier than robotics | 19:15 |
| kanzure | labs seem to be the only industry that have resisted centralization of most of their equipment | 19:16 |
| ParahSailin | often when one thing is extremely cheap, people do not develop new technologies to replace/compete with it | 19:17 |
| kanzure | cars aren't cheap but millions have them anyway | 19:18 |
| ParahSailin | thats not analogous in any way to the glut of grad student and undergrad labor | 19:20 |
| kanzure | so the only reason labs aren't centralized is because of unlimited stupid surplus labor? | 19:24 |
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| ParahSailin | theres probably a number of compounding reasons | 19:30 |
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| kanzure | yashgaroth: which lab things will never be centralized in a remote megalab cloud thing? | 19:40 |
| yashgaroth | angst? you mean like roboticized remote labs? | 19:40 |
| kanzure | yeah | 19:43 |
| kanzure | like, microscopes are still in every lab | 19:43 |
| kanzure | but dna synthesis and transgenic mice are by mail | 19:43 |
| kanzure | and it is weird | 19:43 |
| yashgaroth | many labs don't bother with a microscope, but they're only $300; unless they're doing fluorescence stuff | 19:43 |
| yashgaroth | dna synthesis as I've said before is best centralized/outsourced because "oh no what if synthesize ebola" | 19:44 |
| yashgaroth | also good luck with getting a robot to insert a modified cell into a mouse blastocyst | 19:44 |
| kanzure | that's a stupid reason not to use your own synthesizer | 19:44 |
| yashgaroth | well it's enforced by people with guns | 19:44 |
| yashgaroth | FDA and DEA may be annoying, but DHS is a whole different level | 19:45 |
| yashgaroth | most day-to-day bio work can be done by a high schooler, even PhD work since unless they're director level PhDs are often still just pipetting in the lab getting RSIs | 19:47 |
| yashgaroth | it's when something goes wrong that humans are considered useful/blameable | 19:48 |
| kanzure | as far as i know current lab equipment has never been held back by FDA/DEA concerns | 19:50 |
| yashgaroth | FDA enjoys fucking up the ability to use lab equipment, but for R&D work they're not a problem no | 19:51 |
| yashgaroth | and when the lab is all robots, you'll need one guy around to hit the machines and curse at them until they work. me, I have years of experience with that | 19:52 |
| yashgaroth | also what robot available today will chainsaw giardia-infested piglet carcasses in half so they fit into a biohazard bag? wait, actually that's ripe for automation | 19:54 |
| kanzure | "one guy around to hit the machines and curse at them until they work" fun fact this also works on people | 19:54 |
| yashgaroth | anyway I can't really speak to lab automation, for certain specific super-high-throughput stuff in 96/384-well plates a room-sized Tecan can be cost effective, but otherwise you're doing a lot of moving samples between various legacy equipment | 20:03 |
| kanzure | sure but lab technicians at megacorp could move stuff too, you know | 20:04 |
| yashgaroth | oh well that's what Quintiles is | 20:04 |
| kanzure | yeah but there's lots of CROs and there's still lots of individual labs too | 20:04 |
| kanzure | i am wondering if there are general structural reasons for why there will always be labs (or if there wont be) | 20:05 |
| yashgaroth | soon it will all be Quintiles, at least that's the fear | 20:05 |
| kanzure | i think it's something like.. at the edges you can do more (e.g. without standards yet) compared to the programming and hooking up of stuff inside of a centralized megalab | 20:05 |
| yashgaroth | if you're good you can do the same work as a mega-CRO for less than their markup, most of the cost isn't people or equipment capital, it's daily reagent use | 20:07 |
| kanzure | plus retraining, right? you have to make sure the CRO actually knows your shitty new protocol | 20:08 |
| yashgaroth | well that too, not to mention people worrying about their jobs being outsourced while they're 'training' their replacement | 20:08 |
| yashgaroth | the reagents are the vast majority of costs; I rarely use less than 100X my pay in consumables every day | 20:10 |
| kanzure | i dunno how much inefficiency there is in manufacturing research chemicals | 20:14 |
| kanzure | dow plants look like they are fairly efficient | 20:14 |
| kanzure | and i assume that the high costs are necessary to keep the factories running at all | 20:14 |
| yashgaroth | sure everyone needs metric tons of sodium hydroxide, but when you're using say Estrone 3-(β-D-glucuronide) there's less economy of scale | 20:16 |
| kanzure | the market demand for DMSO can't be extraordinarily high can it.. | 20:16 |
| kanzure | your example is better damn | 20:16 |
| yashgaroth | blew 10 grams of that last week making some shit, and sure it gets cheaper in bulk but not that much | 20:16 |
| yashgaroth | $1585 for 100mg from sigma, sounds right | 20:17 |
| yashgaroth | our tubing costs $40/foot, and I string that shit up like birthday decorations | 20:17 |
| yashgaroth | single use only of course | 20:18 |
| kanzure | of course | 20:18 |
| yashgaroth | we could validate cleaning it but ehhhh | 20:18 |
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| yashgaroth | and let's not get started on $1000+/mg for niche antibodies, so the impetus to save X% over Y years by using robots vs people becomes a less pressing concern | 20:26 |
| yashgaroth | it's still inevitable though | 20:27 |
| kanzure | so every lab gets robots, or the robots all exist at a single mega lab | 20:28 |
| yashgaroth | consolidation does seem favorable in that case, but the nightmare/future is: Quintiles buys up all the CROs, ThermoFisher buys up all the reagent and equipment suppliers, and big pharma lays off everyone below the VPs and just manages the money/acquisitions/advertising | 20:30 |
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| kanzure | right, i expect big pharmas to do that anyway, and they would outsource advertising btw | 20:31 |
| yashgaroth | well they need something to do between lines of coke | 20:31 |
| kanzure | big pharma treats their internal labs sorta like CROs anyway (except without the competition) | 20:32 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/ValveSoftware/steamos_mesa | 20:33 |
| yashgaroth | internal labs are the beaten wife, and all those sexy little startups are just waiting to get sugar-daddied | 20:33 |
| yashgaroth | I'm still not disillusioned with biotech yet, somehow...I try not to think about it, mostly | 20:37 |
| kanzure | ultimately biotech still has to happen, even if the current industry is fucked up | 20:38 |
| kanzure | however, change will not come from the current industry | 20:38 |
| kanzure | it will come from some perpendicular place | 20:39 |
| yashgaroth | one does hope | 20:39 |
| ParahSailin | kanzure: pm | 20:51 |
| kanzure | ok | 20:51 |
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