| --- Log opened Sat Apr 12 00:00:37 2014 | ||
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| kanzure | straight from the conspiracy feed in my head: "The heir to the Dupont Chemical Company fortune was just convicted of raping his 3 year old daughter. The judge stated, "He wouldn't be safe in the prison systems general population". So the judge sentenced him to 20 years of House Arrest. The rich bastard has to spend the next twenty years in his $40 million mansion." | 00:14 |
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| kanzure | why would the dupont chemical co. heir have a mansion worth only $40M? | 00:14 |
| kanzure | that math doesn't add up | 00:14 |
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| jrayhawk | fortunes get split up amongst offspring and misspent | 00:19 |
| jrayhawk | former english nobility is sorta weird in that the families try to hold onto manors and castles and stuff long after it stops making financial sense to do so because they don't want to be the generation that lost the family legacy. | 00:23 |
| jrayhawk | Big properties are moneypits. | 00:23 |
| jrayhawk | Classism is a lot bigger over there, I suppose. | 00:23 |
| kanzure | dupontshire | 00:24 |
| jrayhawk | And I suppose there's a much deeper history. | 00:25 |
| kanzure | weren't dupont and dow scheduled to be replaced by microfluidic chips 10 years ago? | 00:25 |
| jrayhawk | "replaced"? | 00:25 |
| kanzure | reason why they were centralized in the first place was because they had all the chemists | 00:26 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DuPont | 00:26 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dow_Chemical_Company | 00:26 |
| jrayhawk | they have all the research bucks, so they get all the cool stuff, so they get all the research bucks | 00:26 |
| kanzure | oh weird, dupont was doing just military gunpowder for a long while | 00:27 |
| jrayhawk | unless your microfluidic systems of logic gates are sophisticated enough to replace the researchers themselves, i don't think you'll be skipping past this feedback cycle anytime soon | 00:28 |
| kanzure | well, something something regulatory capture of basic research chemicals | 00:29 |
| kanzure | mumble mumble something about sigma aldrich | 00:30 |
| kanzure | "100,000 chemical products (46,000 manufactured)" | 00:31 |
| kanzure | "Approximately one million individual customers worldwide; 88,000 accounts" | 00:31 |
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| kanzure | "ATP (adenosine-τ-triphosphate) proved to be the turning point in the company's evolution. Between projects, Dan Broida allowed a friend, Lou Berger, to occupy some of his laboratory space. Berger was completing his Master's Degree in Biochemistry, isolating and purifying ATP in the laboratory of the famous Nobel Prize winners, Dr. Carl and Dr. Gerty Cori. Based on the Cori findings, he was convinced that ATP would soon become a very ... | 00:35 |
| kanzure | ... important product in the biochemical research scene. - See more at: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/life-science/sigma-life-science/sigma-history.html#sthash.aAyptX8J.dpuf" | 00:35 |
| kanzure | ack stupid js | 00:35 |
| kanzure | "Berger was absolutely right, as ATP proved to have enormous market value. He began to teach the production chemists at Sigma Chemical Company how to isolate and purify ATP. As soon as its availability was known, research groups the world over wanted to purchase 'research quality' ATP for their own studies. And they did. Before long, the research community came to respect Sigma and turn to it for research chemical needs." | 00:35 |
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| kanzure | "Echoing this success in the market, 1964 saw Sigma London formed to strengthen efforts in the United Kingdom. Just two years later, as sales increased throughout Europe, the German chemical giant, Boehringer Mannheim, decided to terminate its supplier relationship with Sigma. With this valuable supply line cut, Sigma was quickly forced to produce many of its starting materials." | 00:37 |
| kanzure | i just don't see any particular strategy here that leads to manufacturing 100,000 research chemicals | 00:38 |
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| kanzure | fisher scientific was just a marketing department? http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=dhBZAAAAIBAJ&sjid=oW0DAAAAIBAJ&dq=fisher%20scientific%20pittsburgh&pg=6863%2C2249255 | 00:51 |
| kanzure | where did these huge catalogs come from | 00:54 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: they can't all be marketing departments. someone's manufacturing random-wacky dextro-hydro-oxalyse-6,7 somewhere, right? | 00:54 |
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| kanzure | you guys are boring | 08:00 |
| FourFire | kanzure, sure, I'm not exactly aiming to entertain | 08:01 |
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| pasky_ | boring means coding | 08:08 |
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| kanzure | if you were coding then i would hear a constant stream of "shit!" and "fucking idiots!" | 08:10 |
| kanzure | which, i do, but that's only because *i'm* coding | 08:11 |
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| dingo | ha | 08:13 |
| eudoxia | also "the whole stack is broken" and "you people are the reason we aren't all using lisp" | 08:13 |
| dingo | double-ha | 08:13 |
| dingo | i had the high honors of fixing one of kanzure's bugs the other week :D | 08:14 |
| eudoxia | i got skdb-get.py to work again, high five | 08:14 |
| dingo | i don't mind a bug from kanzure, he's a good one | 08:14 |
| dingo | its the bugs that come from ppl tripping over ascii characters for hours resulting in running code | 08:15 |
| kanzure | gasp what was the bug? | 08:20 |
| kanzure | central japan railway company http://english.jr-central.co.jp/ | 08:35 |
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| dingo | a race condtion underneath pool.apply_async(upload, args, upload_details) | 08:45 |
| dingo | two subprocs mkdir then chdir, they needed a shared lock "I'm busy looking for, and if not found, create the folder", then release, the other one then acquires, looks, finds, no problem. | 08:45 |
| dingo | also pool.apply_async() does not wait for success -- even if there was a failure, the entire "process" was marked "success" even if it failed | 08:46 |
| dingo | theres a nice PS3 game, 'railfan' thats just HD video of japan's railway system, bit of a zen game, that one | 08:48 |
| kanzure | how do you beat it? | 08:49 |
| dingo | you make your checkpoints on the desginated time, lol | 08:50 |
| dingo | you have to break early, stop within the bounds of the platform | 08:50 |
| dingo | brake | 08:50 |
| dingo | breaks are good to, i'm departing for the beach | 08:50 |
| dingo | bit of eye strain from too much computer time! | 08:50 |
| kanzure | seeya | 08:51 |
| eudoxia | bai | 08:51 |
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| cluckj | just finished richard powers' Orfeo | 09:30 |
| cluckj | it's about a biohacking musical composer | 09:30 |
| cluckj | pretty good read if you like contemporary sciencey fiction | 09:31 |
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| kanzure | cluckj: elaborate? | 09:34 |
| cluckj | :P | 09:36 |
| cluckj | I'm not sure I can without spoilers | 09:36 |
| cluckj | it parallels the steve kurtz debacle for a while, but with some divergence in what happens afterwards | 09:36 |
| kanzure | he trades some samples by mail, his wife dies, he gets busted same day, eight years of eyerolling legal crap? | 09:38 |
| cluckj | lol | 09:38 |
| cluckj | replace wife with dog, no mailing of samples, and then spoiler alert | 09:39 |
| cluckj | I liked the narrative structure, it was a nice touch that reminded me of DNA replication in a 5' --> 3' and 3' --> 5' way | 09:42 |
| kanzure | cluckj: have you read "History of Boehringer Mannheim"? and was it worthwhile. | 09:45 |
| cluckj | no, have you? | 09:46 |
| kanzure | nope just looking around for the source of the idea of "giant conglomerate chemical company" | 09:46 |
| cluckj | http://www.amazon.com/Selling-Science-History-Boehringer-Mannheim/dp/B000F85282 | 09:47 |
| cluckj | that one? | 09:47 |
| cluckj | oh | 09:47 |
| kanzure | looks like it's a translation of "Wissenschaft für den Markt : die Geschichte des forschenden Unternehmens Boehringer Mannheim" which is why amazon doesn't know much about it | 09:47 |
| kanzure | anyway, as far as i can tell, none of the research chemical companies started off wanting to make 100,000 different obscure/esoteric chemicals | 09:47 |
| kanzure | and their wikipedia articles conveniently exclude that jump. e.g. "well they did gun powder for 80 years, and oh by the way they now deal in thousands of chemicals that they've never heard of" | 09:48 |
| cluckj | sheldon krimsky has some readable histories of industrial biotech | 09:48 |
| cluckj | I know there is a book or article about the history of Dow chemical somewhere | 09:49 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure if i am looking for dow or not, it's hard for me to tell | 09:49 |
| kanzure | for example, if fisher doesn't actually manufacture the majority of their products, then where do they come from? | 09:49 |
| kanzure | i assume that some of the materials start from dow, but it can't be all of them? | 09:50 |
| kanzure | or roche for that matter | 09:50 |
| cluckj | iirc dow and dupont got into the business of making a bajillion chemicals because they were into mining of raw materials | 09:50 |
| cluckj | or was it dow and 3M | 09:51 |
| cluckj | yes, dow and 3m got their start mining raw materials and processing them | 09:52 |
| kanzure | "Alfred R. Bader, an Austrian immigrant and chemistry graduate student at Harvard University, entertained the idea of starting a company to sell research chemicals in 1949. Acting on the premise that chemists needed a wider array of research chemicals and better service, Bader and attorney Jack Eisendrath founded Aldrich Chemical Company in Milwaukee, WI, in 1951." | 09:52 |
| kanzure | "Aldrich offered 1-Methyl-3-nitro-1-nitrosoguanidine (MNNG) as it first product, widely used as a methylating reagent. Other products offered in the early '50s include 3-hydroxypyridine, which later became one of Aldrich's best-selling products; ethyl diazoacetate; tetranitomethane; and ethanedithiol. From 1951 to 1954, Bader developed important collaborations through visits to chemical producers in Europe and the UK. The remainder of the ... | 09:52 |
| kanzure | ... 1950s was characterized by rapid growth in sales and in the number of products offered." | 09:52 |
| kanzure | "Aldrich's Rare Chemical Library (RCL) grew out of the collecting and salvaging of valuable research samples of retiring or deceased academic researchers and from other sources. Large-scale contributions of samples to the library have come from such noteworthy chemists as Henry Gilman, George Wittig, Robert Woodward, and Louis and Mary Fieser. RCL has led to the discovery and commercialization by others of some valuable chemical commodities, ... | 09:53 |
| kanzure | ... e.g., Roundup® (Monsanto Co.), based on lead compounds obtained from the RCL." | 09:53 |
| cluckj | hah | 09:53 |
| cluckj | when I was working in the chemistry stockroom I remember having to clear out a dead scientists' lab, and the only thing we were supposed to save was his chemical library of mercaptans | 09:54 |
| kanzure | one of the chemistry stockrooms i used was basically a weirdo sigma/fisher subsidy room.. it was a very strange thing. i didn't investigate because i was busy doing other htings. | 09:55 |
| kanzure | the stock wasn't owned by the school, but rather you could purchase at the door | 09:55 |
| cluckj | oh weird | 09:55 |
| kanzure | not how it worked at your place? | 09:55 |
| cluckj | we had to buy everything, then sell it to the researchers | 09:56 |
| cluckj | "sell" | 09:56 |
| kanzure | so the stockroom had its own budget and balance sheet? | 09:56 |
| cluckj | yeah | 09:56 |
| cluckj | that was a great job...my boss was a 70 year old jamaican dude who always kept nice booze in the dry ice freezer | 09:57 |
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| kanzure | "Today, Sigma-Aldrich has a broad offering of more than 147,000 chemical products (48,000 of which the Company manufactures) and 40,000 equipment items. We supply products to customers in over 150 countries around the world through state-of-the-art distribution centers." | 10:00 |
| kanzure | clearly this is a long tail inventory model.. there's no way that there's even demand across all research chemicals. | 10:00 |
| cluckj | yeah | 10:00 |
| kanzure | but if there's no demand for a certain compound, then why would they maintain the equipment to manufacture it, or why would they have inventory? | 10:01 |
| cluckj | if you have all those chemicals, you have all the synthesis pathways, and probably all the patents | 10:01 |
| kanzure | and i bet they have some internal metrics or process for deciding whether or not there's enough demand/money to bother with a certain product. e.g. some cutoff point. | 10:02 |
| cluckj | that patent thing is especially true for the industrial process to make the chemical | 10:02 |
| kanzure | so maybe they just teardown their equipment when they don't need to synthesize more? | 10:02 |
| kanzure | or do you think they have industrial production at all times and they just throw away their inventory? | 10:03 |
| cluckj | a lot of the synthesis methods are similar, so they can be run on the same equipment | 10:03 |
| kanzure | so the really-low-demand portion of their portfolio is probably custom synthesis on typical glassware and a few technicians? | 10:03 |
| cluckj | those companies have a lot of easily modifiable small production plants | 10:03 |
| cluckj | no, it's on the small-run pilot plants | 10:04 |
| kanzure | huh, so then they have to calculate the cost of their tiny factories. hrm. | 10:04 |
| cluckj | I wouldn't be surprised if they did a lot of benchtop synthesis for really low-demand compounds | 10:04 |
| kanzure | and the thick part of the tail subsidizes the thin horizon | 10:04 |
| cluckj | yeah | 10:04 |
| cluckj | if a compound suddenly becomes popular, they can customize a pilot plant to make a bunch of it | 10:05 |
| cluckj | I saw one at betz dearborn when I was in high school, they are pretty cool | 10:07 |
| ParahSailin | why isnt one of "us" making peptone and yeast extract | 10:15 |
| kanzure | i'm pondering why there isn't a company like transcriptic in the chemistry or even biology products industry (like uh, protein production) | 10:15 |
| ParahSailin | genscript | 10:16 |
| ParahSailin | though, they dont have as many robots as they could | 10:16 |
| ParahSailin | but labor arbitrage is always a good business model | 10:16 |
| kanzure | api for custom protein/antibody production? | 10:18 |
| kanzure | maybe the model should be more like octopart | 10:18 |
| kanzure | interesting, octopart is advertizing circuitlab on their landing page now | 10:19 |
| ParahSailin | peptone and yeast extract seem like things that every lab could have an appliance to make | 10:22 |
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| ParahSailin | every lab has its own milliQ so they dont have to buy bottled water | 10:23 |
| cluckj | the millipore'd water is a recent thing | 10:24 |
| ParahSailin | insert pork stomach, hcl, and malk, receive peptone | 10:24 |
| cluckj | lol | 10:24 |
| ParahSailin | every chinese household has a soybean juice maker | 10:24 |
| cluckj | 1) hack it into existence | 10:25 |
| cluckj | 2) ??? | 10:25 |
| cluckj | 3) profit | 10:25 |
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| ParahSailin | for bonus, the peptone maker could make casitone and vegetable peptone etc for boutique media | 10:25 |
| cluckj | some dudes I met at genspace this week made a pipette robot and a briefcase centrifuge/hot plate/peltier cooler | 10:27 |
| kanzure | briefcase ultracentrifuge? | 10:28 |
| cluckj | yes | 10:28 |
| cluckj | it had all those components in the case with arduino control | 10:29 |
| kanzure | i wonder if ultracentrifugation can be achieved by sonication | 10:29 |
| ParahSailin | er what? | 10:29 |
| kanzure | well, i'm thinking the briefcase would fly out the window | 10:30 |
| kanzure | considering how literally all of the ultracentrifuges i've worked with were larger than laundry machines to keep them from murdering everyone in the lab | 10:30 |
| cluckj | sonication can destroy a lot of substances | 10:30 |
| ParahSailin | theres no substitute for g force when thats what you need | 10:31 |
| cluckj | ^ | 10:32 |
| kanzure | i wonder if there's even enough room on a microfluidic chip to do a generic "synthesize anything" factory | 10:37 |
| kanzure | wasn't one of the holy grails of microfluidics to replace the stockroom with just a chip that has enough equipment to produce whatever you need? | 10:37 |
| kanzure | (or am i thinking of the holy grails of nanotech) | 10:37 |
| kanzure | hehe https://www.transcriptic.com/learn-more/ "Our robots work in sterile, enclosed and regulated environments called workcells. Workcells and individual devices are equipped with real-time monitoring of parameters like humidity, temperature, and atmospheric composition. Our online dashboard tracks this data, and the current state and progress of your samples." | 10:38 |
| kanzure | i guess this is their workcell: https://www.transcriptic.com/res/about/wc-1.jpg | 10:40 |
| cluckj | lol | 10:47 |
| cluckj | macrofluidics, apparently | 10:47 |
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| kanzure | 11:13:08 up 520 days, 11:38, 5 users, load average: 1.75, 1.92, 1.95 | 11:13 |
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| kanzure | "how to organize crime" http://www.aeaweb.org/annual_mtg_papers/2007/0107_1300_1204.pdf | 13:05 |
| kanzure | "Note that, in anarchy, cooperation is harder to sustain than in the previous model because the incentive to deviate increases" | 13:06 |
| kanzure | "mathematical terrorism" https://dspace.library.cornell.edu/bitstream/1813/14741/1/Gutfraind,%20Alexander.pdf | 13:12 |
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| kanzure | genehacker moved with campbell? | 13:23 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: where does roche's/fisher's large catalog of random crap actually come from? | 13:24 |
| yashgaroth | like source country or company? | 13:24 |
| kanzure | company.. or uh. well, none of them started off saying "gee, you know what would be cool, let's make 400,000 chemicals that nobody has ever heard of" | 13:25 |
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| yashgaroth | I imagine the more obscure ones are synthesized to order | 13:28 |
| kanzure | gene_hacker: visiting campbell? | 13:28 |
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| ParahSailin | sigma is a public company, i imagine one might learn something from their annual reports | 13:40 |
| kanzure | sure | 13:41 |
| kanzure | as far as i can tell, the major chemical manufacturers have been taken over by the same type of suits that took over big pharma and big bio | 13:41 |
| yashgaroth | chemicals/equipment/consumables | 13:42 |
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| gene_hacker | huh? | 14:09 |
| kanzure | gene_hacker: you seem to be in oregon | 14:09 |
| gene_hacker | yes, I live there now | 14:09 |
| kanzure | or maybe i forgot you moved.. | 14:09 |
| kanzure | i am not good at this | 14:09 |
| gene_hacker | bkero is in oregon right? | 14:10 |
| kanzure | yep, but also jrayhawk and nmz787 | 14:10 |
| kanzure | nmz787 is your doppleganger and you should meet him | 14:10 |
| gene_hacker | really | 14:10 |
| kanzure | yeah | 14:10 |
| jrayhawk | oregonstate is sorta far away, but i guess nmz787 drives around a lot | 14:11 |
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| Lemminkainen | paperbot http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v20/n1/full/nm.3447.html | 15:17 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnm.3447 | 15:17 |
| Lemminkainen | paperbot http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140408/ncomms4563/full/ncomms4563.html | 15:18 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fncomms4563 | 15:18 |
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| kanzure | i spy with my little eye, delinquentme and nickpinkston https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7579310 | 15:26 |
| nmz787 | i've been driving less lately | 15:26 |
| kanzure | "a world of hardware startups" http://upverter.com/hardware-startups/ | 15:26 |
| nmz787 | anyone going to defcon? | 15:26 |
| kanzure | nmz787: gene_hacker is worth meeting | 15:26 |
| nmz787 | will be driving to sf next month | 15:27 |
| kanzure | nmz787: i originally met him at some stupid orientation seminar at ut austin when he was behind me in line talking about reprap and explosives in 2008 | 15:27 |
| nmz787 | is his name gene or does he like DNA? | 15:27 |
| kanzure | charlie | 15:27 |
| nmz787 | http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Well%20spank%20my%20ass%20and%20call%20me%20Charlie! | 15:28 |
| nmz787 | sorry i was reminded of south park | 15:28 |
| Lemminkainen | that's all consumer tech | 15:29 |
| kanzure | look on the other column | 15:29 |
| nmz787 | so i met some product manager from autodesk last week | 15:29 |
| nmz787 | and asked him to try microns or nanometers, by entering dimensions of 0.00001 mm | 15:29 |
| Lemminkainen | "robotics" and "battery tech" are all there also focused on consumer tech | 15:29 |
| nmz787 | and it seemed to fail, but really it seemed like a zoom problem | 15:29 |
| Lemminkainen | show me a microfluidics rig rapid fabrication startup or something, let's have some imagination | 15:30 |
| nmz787 | he didn't know if internally it was storing all the 000s or if the length unit was a multiplier or just a flag | 15:30 |
| nmz787 | Lemminkainen: that's what i'm trying to do | 15:30 |
| kanzure | Lemminkainen: all of the microfluidics "startups" are really boring "here's a professor who convinced some VCs to give him money, but that was in 2003 and now fluidigym is boring" | 15:30 |
| Lemminkainen | tell me more nmz787 | 15:31 |
| Lemminkainen | I have use for such things | 15:31 |
| kanzure | Lemminkainen: http://diyhpl.us/laser_etcher/laser_etcher/ | 15:31 |
| nmz787 | so now that i've been earning some income, I have some money but no time to put into the work... before I was stalled due to lack of funds | 15:31 |
| nmz787 | Lemminkainen: that is quite old | 15:31 |
| Lemminkainen | hm, I'd need valves a la Quake's rigs | 15:32 |
| nmz787 | Lemminkainen: the plan now is to use machine vision for motor control feedback, using a microscope and reticle, and bluray laser optics to do SteroLithography | 15:32 |
| nmz787 | so even if the screw leads are shitty, the grid reticle video tells you to speed up or slow down | 15:32 |
| Lemminkainen | chosen a machine vision library yet? | 15:33 |
| nmz787 | i've had a good deal of experience with opencv | 15:33 |
| Lemminkainen | http://simplecv.org/ | 15:33 |
| kanzure | Lemminkainen: here's another old thing http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/fbi-diybio-dna-v1.pdf | 15:34 |
| nmz787 | yeah, thinking of speed though, i'd probably want to start with c based code | 15:34 |
| kanzure | Lemminkainen: which doesn't follow nmz787's previous messages | 15:34 |
| kanzure | i mean, his statements here are more timely | 15:34 |
| nmz787 | heh that plot (minus synthesis data) was shown like 5 or 6 times at the genomics conf last tuesday | 15:35 |
| nmz787 | they kept joking about it | 15:35 |
| nmz787 | oh and it had moores law on it | 15:35 |
| kanzure | yeah it'd be nice to get that graph killed for good | 15:35 |
| nmz787 | so i guess it was slightly different, but basically the same | 15:36 |
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| nmz787 | Lemminkainen: my only concern now is the depth of field on the bluray optics out of box | 15:36 |
| nmz787 | I am bad at optics calculations | 15:36 |
| nmz787 | I have been thinking maybe i need to do a physics phd :P | 15:36 |
| Lemminkainen | you seen the newer graphs that plot sequencing, oligo synth, and peptide synth as all following similar curves at 3 year respective lags? | 15:36 |
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| nmz787 | nah | 15:37 |
| kanzure | xentrac: so you think that the debugging problems are not a showstopper? | 15:37 |
| kanzure | xentrac: figured it shouldn't be a private conversation | 15:38 |
| kanzure | xentrac: since nmz787 is the one doing the work | 15:38 |
| nmz787 | ? | 15:38 |
| kanzure | what are you asking? | 15:38 |
| nmz787 | what am i doing? | 15:38 |
| kanzure | microfluidics | 15:39 |
| nmz787 | oh | 15:39 |
| nmz787 | well even more recently I've been thinking of looking to see if any cheaper contractors are out there to just send cad files and get microstructured silicone in the mail | 15:39 |
| nmz787 | just since i have less time but income :/ | 15:40 |
| kanzure | that stanford fab does $400/mask | 15:40 |
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| nmz787 | "competitive" http://www.cidraprecisionservices.com/sales-representatives-pricing-delivery.html | 15:43 |
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| nmz787 | plus they can do optical coatings | 15:43 |
| nmz787 | actually I need to go and talk to the fib guy locally who can do fast patterning | 15:44 |
| nmz787 | well | 15:45 |
| nmz787 | maybe not now | 15:45 |
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| xentrac | kanzure: I think debugging problems are profoundly and broadly important | 15:59 |
| kanzure | i could imagine wasting a year or three on, like, microvalve problems | 16:01 |
| xentrac | yup | 16:02 |
| xentrac | I could too | 16:02 |
| xentrac | one of the nice things about fluidics is that you can reduce your need for valves, but then you're debugging fluidic gates instead | 16:02 |
| nmz787 | yeah, another reason for looking into shops | 16:10 |
| nmz787 | i've been working on getting grant writing support for an NSF SBIR grant, paid for by the state Small Biz Admin | 16:11 |
| nmz787 | 15 pg body, 50 pg appendix was one rough estimate i got | 16:12 |
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| nmz787 | unfortunately the grant support organization that's state funded has cleantech as their motto, and biofuel synbio isn't seem to be as direct | 16:13 |
| kanzure | if your goal is dna, then i still think that microfluidics is the wrong approach | 16:15 |
| nmz787 | anything else wouldn't qualify for SBIR | 16:15 |
| kanzure | if your goal is microfluidics, then don't pitch biofuel or bio-almost-anything, there's other compounds to pick | 16:15 |
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| nmz787 | it is specific for high potential for being disruptive | 16:15 |
| nmz787 | high-risk, high potential payoff | 16:16 |
| Lemminkainen | precise conjugation of organic chemicals is disruptive enough | 16:16 |
| kanzure | just because nobody has done it doesn't mean you can arbitrarily increase the number of variables that can break... engineering works by constraining the set of things that can go wrong. | 16:16 |
| Lemminkainen | DNA is long and sticky and is going to give you massive aggregation headaches | 16:16 |
| Lemminkainen | set your first bar lower, smash it, then qualify for additional SBIR grants | 16:17 |
| nmz787 | Lemminkainen: there comes nanofluidics | 16:17 |
| kanzure | dna is a pretty long reaction, so it's not just microfluidics but also dna reaction chemistry | 16:17 |
| nmz787 | where you physically constrain the molecule | 16:17 |
| nmz787 | that also shields already written dna from active chemistry | 16:17 |
| nmz787 | so your risk of depurinating side chains goes way down | 16:17 |
| Lemminkainen | so you're compounding your project risk by trying to translate homebrew microfluidics into sterically hindered nanofluidics? | 16:18 |
| nmz787 | no | 16:19 |
| nmz787 | that is why i know several local FIB shops | 16:19 |
| nmz787 | ttyl | 16:20 |
| kanzure | :/ | 16:20 |
| kanzure | Lemminkainen: so what would be the lowest bar you can think of | 16:20 |
| nmz787 | gotta take my girl shopping | 16:21 |
| nmz787 | :P | 16:21 |
| nmz787 | I don't /want/ to go | 16:21 |
| kanzure | say hi when you run into steve (he is also shopping) | 16:21 |
| nmz787 | heh heh | 16:21 |
| Lemminkainen | prove that you can precisely gate the flow of a few different organic chemicals into different concentrations in an end result | 16:21 |
| Lemminkainen | that would be step 1 | 16:21 |
| Lemminkainen | no reactions, just prove your shit can mix stuff precisely | 16:21 |
| nmz787 | ok so dyes | 16:21 |
| Lemminkainen | or redox | 16:22 |
| nmz787 | and a spectrometer on the mixing site? | 16:22 |
| nmz787 | or just microscope video | 16:22 |
| Lemminkainen | redox, just measure pH | 16:22 |
| nmz787 | ahh, ok, won't i then need a microprobe? | 16:22 |
| nmz787 | or just process enough volume and take the average? | 16:22 |
| nmz787 | assume its averaged | 16:22 |
| Lemminkainen | sure, that could work | 16:23 |
| nmz787 | Lemminkainen: please continue, I will check back later... with so much in my head its hard to bring it to words sometimes | 16:23 |
| Lemminkainen | take multiple samples over a few days and prove it | 16:23 |
| Lemminkainen | I don't really have more to go on at the moment, I'm just trying to reduce the engineering complexity of your project as it comes | 16:24 |
| nmz787 | my last project was fixing the spincoater (all done) | 16:24 |
| kanzure | i wouldn't even say complexity, just size | 16:24 |
| nmz787 | but that doesn't come into play if i send out for fab | 16:24 |
| kanzure | as you increase the number of variables you're dramatically increasing the constraint optimization problem | 16:24 |
| nmz787 | the SBIR would eliminate a lot of the feel of the size i think | 16:24 |
| kanzure | uh.. | 16:25 |
| nmz787 | it could be reduce to UML blocks | 16:25 |
| nmz787 | derp | 16:25 |
| kanzure | so because you can represent it in blocks, it's therefore less variables? | 16:25 |
| kanzure | wtf | 16:25 |
| nmz787 | I mean blocks would be contracted out | 16:25 |
| nmz787 | rather than me worrying about the valves, pay a contractor who already knows | 16:25 |
| nmz787 | and then that doesn't require as much ramp up and debug | 16:26 |
| Lemminkainen | even if you send stuff out for fab, you still have to test and verify what parts you get from there | 16:26 |
| nmz787 | mm | 16:26 |
| Lemminkainen | think of all fabbed parts from 3rd parties as unknown code that you must unit test | 16:26 |
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| nmz787 | luckily i don't think the final reaction center would need more than 8 input lines | 16:27 |
| nmz787 | ask kanzure about the droplet storage idea, that would be much more complex | 16:27 |
| nmz787 | i think at least in terms of routing lines around | 16:27 |
| Lemminkainen | you said you're driving to SF next week, let me know if you have spare time and we'll see if we can meet up to whiteboard this whole thing out | 16:29 |
| Lemminkainen | I'm in Oakland | 16:29 |
| kanzure | oh are you? i've missed you every time i've been by then | 16:29 |
| kanzure | unless, are you juul? | 16:29 |
| Lemminkainen | I am not juul | 16:30 |
| Lemminkainen | my being more permanent in any one place is a recent phenomenon | 16:30 |
| nmz787 | next month actually | 16:33 |
| nmz787 | for MakerFaire | 16:33 |
| nmz787 | cool, will contact | 16:34 |
| nmz787 | ok bye for real now | 16:34 |
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| kanzure | "On the maximal quantity of processed information in the physical eschatological context" http://arxiv.org/pdf/astro-ph/0112543.pdf?origin=publication_detail | 17:36 |
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| andytoshi | here's a cool fact: i just read in "darwin's dangerous idea" that the storage density of e.coli is 10^27 bits/m^3, which at the time of its calculation (1990) was a staggering density.. for reference i just calc'd a 3.5" 4Tb HDD has a density of ~10^17 bits/m^3 | 18:17 |
| kanzure | if you are saying that because of the paper i just linked, then you might be also interested in http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/The%20physics%20of%20information%20processing%20superobjects%20-%20Anders%20Sandberg%20-%201999.pdf | 18:19 |
| kanzure | actually you might be interested in that one for other bitcoin reasons | 18:20 |
| andytoshi | i am (though it's a happy coincidence, because i read that five minutes ago unrelatedly), thx | 18:20 |
| kanzure | how'd you stumble into it? | 18:20 |
| kanzure | oh i see | 18:21 |
| kanzure | i interpreted that the wrong way | 18:21 |
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| xentrac | the 4Tb HDD smells better | 19:34 |
| xentrac | but that seems like a large price to pay for a ten-billion-fold reduction in storage density | 19:35 |
| kanzure | actually we have banana-smelling ecoli these days | 19:36 |
| kanzure | but nice try | 19:36 |
| xentrac | does it smell like only banana, or more like a poopy banana? | 19:36 |
| kanzure | there's also minty-smelling ecoli | 19:37 |
| kanzure | http://biobuilder.org/eau-that-smell/ | 19:37 |
| kanzure | "For the 2006 iGEM competition, MIT students designed Eau d’coli, E. coli that smell like bananas when their population is in the stationary phase. They did this by inserting a device that contains a stationary phase sensitive promoter coupled to a banana smell device, a device that contains a ribosome binding site (RBS), an open reading frame (ORF) that codes for the ATF1 enzyme and terminator sequences. The ATF1 enzyme converts isoamyl ... | 19:37 |
| kanzure | ... alcohol to isoamyl acetate, the molecule that gives bananas their characteristic smell." | 19:37 |
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| xentrac | I just managed to kill my tenth-level wizard by taking the wrong way out of being out flanked by a leocrotta and an ape in Minetown | 19:39 |
| xentrac | tried to engrave Elbereth instead of drinking a potion of full healing, and they slaughtered me while I was engraving | 19:40 |
| kanzure | is minetown like a dumbed down version of dwarf fortress? | 19:40 |
| kanzure | nvm i see, it's minecraft | 19:41 |
| xentrac | there's a minetown in minecraft? I was talking about Nethack | 19:41 |
| kanzure | dingo: halp | 19:42 |
| xentrac | I often think that the interaction structure of games could be useful in enhancing people's capacities | 19:43 |
| kanzure | http://alt.org/nethack/player-endings.php?player=dingo | 19:43 |
| xentrac | through things like carefully spaced practice | 19:43 |
| kanzure | as opposed to the interaction structure of what | 19:44 |
| xentrac | tools, I suppose | 19:44 |
| kanzure | i've been pondering about a way to model human performance limits | 19:46 |
| kanzure | there's obviously computational limits of any computing system | 19:47 |
| kanzure | and presumably there's some upper bound on my intentional finger movement rate: http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile.php?username=kanzure | 19:47 |
| kanzure | knowing the structure of the limits can help inform actions, e.g. whether it's a local constraint shared by similar agents or a constraint due to inefficient technology or something | 19:48 |
| xentrac | you might have seen my speculations on how fast you could learn a language: https://www.mail-archive.com/kragen-tol@canonical.org/msg00243.html | 19:54 |
| xentrac | the known constraints give an unrealistically fast bound on language learning | 19:54 |
| kanzure | that's an interesting estimate, but good luck finding a native speaker who's willing to teach based on that concept? | 19:55 |
| kanzure | i was subjected to public education where the foreign language teachers took an incomprehensibly stupid approach | 19:57 |
| kanzure | little separation between mastery of sounds, pronounciation, spelling, writing, reading, oral reading, etc. | 19:57 |
| kanzure | (but it also wasn't immersion) | 19:57 |
| kanzure | hmm 1.5 seconds per repetition as the maximum allowable in the schedule? | 19:58 |
| xentrac | that seems reasonable, no? | 19:59 |
| kanzure | maybe. i've found that sometimes i require a bunch of calibration on a morpheme or pronounciation. still can't read IPA. | 20:02 |
| kanzure | s/can't/haven't | 20:02 |
| kanzure | by calibration i mean something that requires time and someone furrowing eyebrows at me | 20:03 |
| xentrac | I can't read much IPA outside of what's needed for English and Spanish | 20:04 |
| kanzure | i spent a long two years hooked behind supermemo doing card repetitions for 3-4 hours/day | 20:07 |
| kanzure | sorta regret it | 20:07 |
| xentrac | heh | 20:07 |
| xentrac | do you still spend a few minutes a day to keep those alive? or did you give it up entirely? | 20:08 |
| kanzure | cold turkey | 20:08 |
| xentrac | bummer, so most of that memorization is gone now? | 20:08 |
| xentrac | what kind of stuff were you memorizing? | 20:08 |
| kanzure | anything and everything | 20:08 |
| kanzure | but you have to understand that.. erm. hm. | 20:08 |
| kanzure | the reasons why i was using it was not because i figured my memory was poor | 20:08 |
| kanzure | but rather because it was a consistent behavior that i could perform | 20:09 |
| dingo | < kanzure> dingo: halp | 20:09 |
| dingo | minetown is a special level thats always guarenteed in nethack | 20:09 |
| kanzure | i was hoping for your witty comments about nethack to make up for my own lack of play | 20:09 |
| Lemminkainen | paperbot http://www.cell.com/cell-stem-cell/abstract/S1934-5909(14)00055-1 | 20:09 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/f87c0229d560f2a3a93fcc4960efd4d2.txt | 20:09 |
| kanzure | nice try Lemminkainen | 20:09 |
| xentrac | haha | 20:09 |
| kanzure | xentrac: it turns out my memory is not really that bad on its own | 20:09 |
| Lemminkainen | what went wrong there? | 20:09 |
| kanzure | xentrac: so it was really just a behavior tar pit | 20:10 |
| dingo | i've got a nethack character after completing the castle, just sitting on it now for a month, has good chance to win | 20:10 |
| kanzure | Lemminkainen: paperbot doesn't have access to that one | 20:10 |
| xentrac | I've never come close to that level of competency | 20:10 |
| Lemminkainen | ahh, damn | 20:10 |
| dingo | at some point nethack is about weight & item management, gets a little boring on the 2nd half | 20:10 |
| xentrac | when does the 2nd half begin? | 20:11 |
| dingo | when you reach hell... ghenohamn or however its spelled | 20:11 |
| dingo | levels 40-80 or some such | 20:11 |
| dingo | gehennom | 20:11 |
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| kanzure | the data was basically anything, but lots of physiology, neuroscience, biology, physics, math, some programming (but i found it too annoying because most of that didn't require repetition), music theory stuff.. etc. | 20:13 |
| kanzure | some chemistry and organic reactions | 20:13 |
| kanzure | i think i was adding more new entries per day than the digestable amount in the supermemo algorithm though | 20:13 |
| kanzure | so it becomes sorta pointless at high volume | 20:13 |
| kanzure | i think someone did an analysis and found that a total of 1.2M entries is digestable in a regular human lifetime in anki (not supermemo, but probably applies the same) | 20:14 |
| xentrac | sounds reasonable | 20:14 |
| xentrac | was it stuff that you were finding useful in the other parts of the day? | 20:15 |
| kanzure | no, i was in high school and none of the content was relevant | 20:15 |
| kanzure | (i was bored out of my mind) | 20:15 |
| xentrac | it makes sense that that would kind of turn you off to it | 20:16 |
| kanzure | it just got out of control and i had to remember why i was bothering with it etc | 20:16 |
| xentrac | how many entries did you have at the end? | 20:16 |
| kanzure | hmm at least 50k but probably less than 500k | 20:16 |
| kanzure | at some point it is more efficient to not bother with repetition | 20:18 |
| xentrac | supermemo etc. is kind of an example of what I was talking about | 20:18 |
| xentrac | but it has the problem that it's kind of boring rather than addcitive | 20:18 |
| xentrac | to me anyway. my experience was with anymemo | 20:18 |
| kanzure | i didn't introduce you to supermemo/anki/spaced repetition did i? | 20:18 |
| xentrac | no | 20:19 |
| kanzure | oh good | 20:19 |
| xentrac | the Wired article did | 20:19 |
| xentrac | so unless you wrote that | 20:19 |
| kanzure | nope | 20:19 |
| xentrac | I do think there's probably some value in training memory skill, above and beyond memorizing particular things, which is also valuable in some cases | 20:19 |
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| kanzure | i would rate it an 6/10 as far as netsplits could go | 22:37 |
| kanzure | (we're rating netsplits now) | 22:37 |
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