| --- Log opened Sun Apr 20 00:00:17 2014 | ||
| --- Day changed Sun Apr 20 2014 | ||
| fenn | Damn kid. Tying up the phone line again. They're all alike... | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| xmj | Damn kid. All he does is play games. They're all alike. << resonated more | 00:01 |
| fenn | ah i hadn't actually looked at the url | 00:01 |
| xmj | hahaha | 00:01 |
| xmj | fenn: scary | 00:01 |
| fenn | i saw "phrack" and then was like, "why don't i have a copy of that in ~/book/computers/ | 00:02 |
| xmj | then you put wget to the task. | 00:02 |
| fenn | no, then i googled "hacker manifesto" | 00:02 |
| xmj | close | 00:02 |
| ebowden | Fenn, could such an experiment produce data that would move the discourse in any particular direction? | 00:03 |
| ebowden | (Providing we used controls.) | 00:03 |
| fenn | i dont know what you mean by "task specific strategies" | 00:04 |
| fenn | chunking i guess, but that's just cognition | 00:05 |
| fenn | anyway, YES dietary changes and nootropic drugs should increase working memory, and see that on objective tests and perhaps even fMRI | 00:06 |
| fenn | (I haven't read anything about fMRI in a few years, it probably has progressed a lot in that time.) | 00:07 |
| ebowden | Oh, back fenn. | 00:07 |
| ebowden | Basically, when they don't see the expected transfer in performance to other tasks, they attribute to them getting better at the working memory task, rather than working memory itself. | 00:08 |
| ebowden | *they attribute it to | 00:08 |
| fenn | why not just test the task that you're trying to improve | 00:09 |
| fenn | and then have a control group | 00:09 |
| fenn | /nick captain_obvious | 00:10 |
| fenn | this is a pretty good argument for human cloning. there aren't enough twins to go around, so all new babies should be clones so we can do science experiments on them | 00:11 |
| ebowden | They are not trying to improve a specific task. | 00:11 |
| fenn | who is "they"? | 00:11 |
| fenn | reptilians from sirius B? | 00:12 |
| ebowden | Oh, the researchers. | 00:12 |
| * fenn facepalms | 00:12 | |
| xmj | haha | 00:13 |
| xmj | great | 00:13 |
| ebowden | fenn, You want me to trudge through, find a specific paper in which that happens, and say "Nilms et all were.."? | 00:13 |
| fenn | it seems like you have a specific context in which everything you say makes sense, but i'm not paying enough attention to deduce it | 00:14 |
| fenn | sorry if that's disrespectful | 00:14 |
| fenn | i have 130 tabs open | 00:14 |
| ebowden | It doesn't sound disrespectful, just strange. | 00:14 |
| ebowden | Which is not not meant to sound disrespectful. | 00:15 |
| fenn | you want to increase working memory because someone said "maybe working memory IS iq", but i don't really care about iq, i care about performance on things that matter | 00:15 |
| ebowden | And being distracted probably excuses that anyway. | 00:15 |
| xmj | fenn: have you tried singletasking? | 00:15 |
| xmj | people say (and science supports it ;-) that you get moer done singletasking | 00:16 |
| fenn | i'm not sure how to answer that, since i don't "multitask" | 00:16 |
| fenn | i mean, i'm talking on IRC, so i'm trying to read the paper you linked, etc. | 00:17 |
| fenn | how can i talk to you if i dont read the paper you linked | 00:17 |
| ebowden | Oh, fenn, IQ most certainly does matter, if pier reviewed research on the matter is to be believed. It just does not matter as much as some other things. | 00:17 |
| xmj | fenn: multitasking as in back and forth between irc and the paper you're reading. | 00:17 |
| xmj | not reading the paper at once | 00:17 |
| ebowden | Which is what you are going after fenn, and that's good. | 00:17 |
| fenn | well, it definitely is easier to talk to one person at a time | 00:18 |
| ebowden | (The other things, which have more of an effect, are what I meant to say you were going after. | 00:18 |
| ebowden | (The other things, which have more of an effect, are what I meant to say you were going after.) | 00:19 |
| fenn | anyway multitasking isn't the reason i have so many tabs/projects open | 00:19 |
| ebowden | Ah, sorry fenn. | 00:19 |
| fenn | i'm a tab hoarder :) | 00:19 |
| ebowden | Join the club. | 00:20 |
| fenn | i grew up during times of tab scarcity | 00:20 |
| fenn | why, back in my day, web browsers only had one tab | 00:20 |
| ebowden | LOL | 00:20 |
| fenn | "what do you need so many tabs for, this place is a mess!" | 00:21 |
| xmj | fenn: back when i started, tabs didn't exist | 00:21 |
| xmj | that was around IE3 maybe IE4 times. | 00:21 |
| fenn | i started with NCSA mosaic :P | 00:21 |
| xmj | did it have tabs, then? | 00:21 |
| fenn | uh. it didn't even have forms | 00:21 |
| xmj | good times | 00:21 |
| fenn | no forms = no search engine, but there were no search engines either | 00:22 |
| fenn | so people kept lists of "what's new and hot on the web" | 00:22 |
| fenn | sometimes i think maybe that was a better system | 00:22 |
| fenn | basically tumblr | 00:23 |
| jrayhawk | xmj: there's a few different answers to this question; broadly speaking, "paleo" is equivalent to "taking shortcuts in science using anthropological norms as a null hypothesis", which allowed e.g. Weston Price to work out how Mk4 worked 50 years before standard biochemistry research did, and Roman Shatin to work out the connection between gut permeability and autoimmunity and how gluten effects it, but, at this point, most of the ... | 00:23 |
| yoleaux | 06:47Z <xmj> jrayhawk: hi, this is mostly reminder to myself to ask you about scientific articles re: paleo diet. | 00:23 |
| jrayhawk | ... anthropological handwaving is no longer necessary. | 00:23 |
| ebowden | Oh fenn, basically, I am going after working memory and 'fluid reasoning ability' because it helps in a LOT of things, and improvements in it are so exceptionally elusive. | 00:23 |
| ebowden | I'm chasin' the brain dragon. | 00:23 |
| fenn | by Mk4 he is talking about http://www.westonaprice.org/fat-soluble-activators/x-factor-is-vitamin-k2 | 00:24 |
| jrayhawk | oh i should say the Roman Shatin intestinal permeability thing is also 50 years ahead of its time. | 00:24 |
| fenn | is it? | 00:24 |
| fenn | hippies have been talking about gut permeability for decades | 00:25 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, 1960's. Fasano only discovered Zonulin in 2000. | 00:25 |
| fenn | oh, i see. i thought you were talking about fasano/zonulin | 00:25 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, but hippies didn't concisely map it to gluten and autoimmunity; they just claimed it was responsible for everything | 00:25 |
| fenn | well, autoimmunity causes a lot of different symptoms | 00:26 |
| jrayhawk | It's true. | 00:26 |
| jrayhawk | And having read some of Vojdani's stuff, the scope of stuff anti-gliadin antibodies screw up is sortof terrifying. | 00:27 |
| ebowden | Oh, fenn, what less elusive dragons are you chasing? | 00:27 |
| fenn | sleep pods | 00:28 |
| fenn | LCARS | 00:28 |
| ebowden | What are LCARS? | 00:28 |
| fenn | software that isn't bloated | 00:28 |
| ebowden | Ah, ok. | 00:28 |
| fenn | LCARS is the fictional touchscreen interface from Star Trek | 00:28 |
| ebowden | LOL | 00:28 |
| fenn | except now it's actually possible to build it on commodity hardware with open web standards (CSS3 and javascript) | 00:29 |
| fenn | you don't even need the javascript really | 00:29 |
| ebowden | Well, it's neat. | 00:29 |
| ebowden | So, what about the sleep pods? | 00:29 |
| jrayhawk | anyway, if you like anthropological null hypothesis handwaving, there have been a lot of research trials with impressive results; http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/10/paleolithic-diet-clinical-trials.html http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/10/paleolithic-diet-clinical-trials-part.html http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/02/paleolithic-diet-clinical-trials-part.html ... | 00:30 |
| jrayhawk | ... http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/09/paleolithic-diet-clinical-trials-part.html http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/10/one-last-thought.html | 00:30 |
| fenn | a lot of people spend the majority of their income (and thus time) on rent and bills; i think this is morally wrong. one way around this is to minimize the energy and space requirements for living. we can do this by designing the functional layout of the home and optimizing thermal, acoustic, and olfactory isolation from the environment. | 00:31 |
| jrayhawk | a lot of those researchers also regularly do presentations at the Ancestral Health Symposium which are full of interesting commentary. | 00:31 |
| ebowden | Neat fenn. | 00:31 |
| fenn | ebowden: bucky fuller had a lot to say about this during his "dymaxion" period, but he took a more grandiose government-sponsored approach | 00:32 |
| ebowden | Oh, jrayhawk, what was it you did here? | 00:32 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 00:32 |
| jrayhawk | I run a bunch of network infrastructure that Kanzure (ab)uses. | 00:33 |
| jrayhawk | Occasionally I am called upon to be a dietary crank. | 00:33 |
| fenn | packaging toilet, single piece stainless bathroom, air dropped housing, 3 wheeled aerodynamic car.. mash all this together with LCARS and water purification and you have what i'm thinking about at the moment | 00:34 |
| ebowden | Ah, ok. | 00:34 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: I appreciate your dietary crankiness | 00:34 |
| ebowden | Fenn, how feasible is it today? | 00:34 |
| fenn | it was feasible in 1930, built, tested, commercially viable. nobody wanted it. | 00:35 |
| JayDugger1 | Been reading RBF, fenn? | 00:35 |
| JayDugger1 | never mind, read the log, I get itl | 00:35 |
| fenn | if you can't murder them, poison the water supply with psychotropic drugs | 00:35 |
| ebowden | Can't murder who? | 00:36 |
| fenn | the consumers | 00:36 |
| fenn | the fucktards who keep building square wooden boxes and wondering why they burn down and cost so much to repair | 00:36 |
| fenn | did you know the average bathroom renovation costs $30,000 | 00:37 |
| jrayhawk | Things what are usually interesting sources of research analysis and clinical reports: http://gdata.youtube.com/feeds/base/users/AncestryFoundation/uploads http://chriskresser.com/feed http://blog.cholesterol-and-health.com/feeds/posts/default http://rawfoodsos.com/feed/ http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default http://www.marksdailyapple.com/feed/ http://www.robbwolf.com/feed/ http://eatingacademy.com/feed ... | 00:37 |
| jrayhawk | ... http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default | 00:37 |
| ebowden | Well, it seems, shockingly, people don't want tiny boxes as their homes. | 00:37 |
| JayDugger1 | Yes,believe me, I well know it. | 00:37 |
| jrayhawk | i want caves | 00:37 |
| fenn | okay but can they either 1) leave me alone while i build my nuclear rocket to go elsewhere, or 2) get the fuck off my planet | 00:38 |
| ebowden | They will probably not leave you alone if you do anything nuclear. | 00:38 |
| jrayhawk | ebowden: http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/hovel/100_2631.JPG oh yeah, i guess this is probably a more concise explanation of what i do | 00:39 |
| fenn | according to ITAR i'm not allowed to build any kind of rocket | 00:39 |
| JayDugger1 | Hooray! a future neighbor. Let's have a round of "sudo skdb make --me -a nuclear_pulse_rocket" | 00:39 |
| ebowden | ITAR? | 00:39 |
| fenn | international treaty on arms trade restriction | 00:39 |
| ebowden | LOL | 00:39 |
| ebowden | Ok fenn. | 00:39 |
| JayDugger1 | Look it up; a depressing set of laws hobbling American aerospace. | 00:39 |
| JayDugger1 | If you don't know, enjoy your ignorance. | 00:40 |
| fenn | you think it's funny, but a majority of my interests are limited by ITAR | 00:40 |
| fenn | even five axis milling machines | 00:40 |
| jrayhawk | not "any kind of rocket" | 00:40 |
| fenn | like the soviets can't figure out how to build a milling machine | 00:40 |
| ebowden | Oh, LOL was to the photograph. | 00:40 |
| jrayhawk | PSAS got some clarification from the feds on what the ITAR limits are; you might email Andrew Greenberg or Nathan Bergey about what those wound up being. | 00:40 |
| fenn | oh wait, there is no soviet union, why do we have ITAR? | 00:40 |
| jrayhawk | PSAS was doing a bunch of experiments with canards that were starting to look an awful lot like guidance. | 00:41 |
| ebowden | Fenn, because TERRORIST! MURICA! | 00:41 |
| JayDugger1 | Also limited by the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty. | 00:41 |
| JayDugger1 | No, more like consolidate your company's position by encouraging barriers to entry that small upstarts can't afford. | 00:42 |
| fenn | sounds familiar, FDA anyone? | 00:42 |
| ebowden | Oh, JayDugger1, what was it you did? | 00:42 |
| JayDugger1 | ITAR long predates the war on terror. | 00:42 |
| JayDugger1 | I work for an aerospace company with military contracts, though no longer in that division. | 00:43 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 00:44 |
| JayDugger1 | Remember the old t-shirts, http://www.cypherspace.org/adam/shirt/, ? | 00:44 |
| JayDugger1 | ITAR blocked thosel | 00:44 |
| JayDugger1 | God damn it, what's with hitting 'l' vice '.'? | 00:44 |
| ebowden | Oh, fenn, to clarify, I'm not after working memory because someone said something about it being related to IQ, but because a bunch of pier reviewed research has shown that it has some predictive power as a cognitive ability. | 00:57 |
| fenn | meh | 00:59 |
| ebowden | Given the dirge of evidence for successful interventions regarding it, I do understand your ambivalence. | 01:00 |
| ebowden | But, a method of actually making someone measurably 'smarter' might be far more appealing to the general public than teaching other skills. | 01:03 |
| JayDugger1 | Only if it's easy. | 01:04 |
| ebowden | Remember, there may be no need for presentation of stimuli or conscious effort. | 01:05 |
| JayDugger1 | Methods for increasing strength and health and attractiveness exist, have wide support, and "exercise in a pill" is a punchline to many jokes. | 01:05 |
| ebowden | http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3297423/pdf/nihms-359501.pdf | 01:06 |
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| fenn | .tell ebowden working memory is probably a function of the thalamus. wikipedia says " the frontal cortex, parietal cortex, anterior cingulate, and parts of the basal ganglia" so i would start with looking at biochemistry specific to those regions. | 01:11 |
| yoleaux | fenn: I'll pass your message to ebowden. | 01:11 |
| fenn | hum i guess he just timed out | 01:12 |
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| fenn | heh | 01:12 |
| fenn | patience in a pill, i'd pay good money for that | 01:12 |
| ebowden | LOL | 01:13 |
| yoleaux | 08:11Z <fenn> ebowden: working memory is probably a function of the thalamus. wikipedia says " the frontal cortex, parietal cortex, anterior cingulate, and parts of the basal ganglia" so i would start with looking at biochemistry specific to those regions. | 01:13 |
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| ebowden | Well, effexor induces neurogenesis in the frontal cortex. | 01:14 |
| fenn | gosh if only we had a hplusroadmap wiki </sarcasm> | 01:14 |
| ebowden | :D | 01:14 |
| ebowden | Fenn, working memory recruits a variety of regions, including the PFC. | 01:15 |
| JayDugger1 | Patience in a pill? pot, ketamine, placodil? | 01:15 |
| fenn | kanzure: does this file exist? http://heybryan.org/calxism/index2.html | 01:16 |
| JayDugger1 | Not quite what you meant. | 01:16 |
| jrayhawk | fenn: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/11/going-loopy/ I was impressed with this as a working hypothesis for what serotonin does | 01:16 |
| jrayhawk | which is close to hormonal patience | 01:17 |
| fenn | JayDugger1: people take amphetamines for motivation, and it works. problem is then they go and do the wrong stuff | 01:17 |
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| jrayhawk | yeah, they start IRC chatrooms and wikis. | 01:18 |
| fenn | warning: mild ideohazards (cracking up here) | 01:18 |
| fenn | postive emotional feedback loops do happen, they're called: panic attacks, depression, narcissism | 01:19 |
| fenn | the brain wasn't even designed by an amateur, it just happened | 01:20 |
| * fenn shuts up and reads tfa | 01:23 | |
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| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/psychohazard.jpg http://fennetic.net/irc/memetically_active.jpg | 01:28 |
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| fenn | the problem with labels like "depression" is they don't really explain anything | 01:30 |
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| fenn | "you have ehlers danlos syndrome hypermobility and low blood pressure due to a collagen synthesis defect in chromosome 11 and heterozygous MTHFR because your ancestors were inbred mormon pioneers" now THAT's an explanation that means something | 01:32 |
| fenn | but they'd rather just medicate | 01:32 |
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| fenn | people put way too much emphasis on serotonin and dopamine, it's the classic hammer looking for nails problem | 01:37 |
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| ebowden | Well, SSRIs are one of the only things that can make people's brains get BIGGER as they get older. | 01:39 |
| ebowden | So it can't be all bad. | 01:40 |
| mosasaur | How would that work? Only babies can still expand their skull. | 01:42 |
| fenn | this is probably due to their neurogenesis effect, which also occurs in e.g. lion's mane mushroom (BDNF) | 01:42 |
| ebowden | Mushrooms are cool. | 01:42 |
| fenn | mushrooms are underappreciated | 01:43 |
| ebowden | Also, Effoxor has been documented to do it for the frontal cortex. | 01:43 |
| ebowden | Not sure what regional limitations there are on the mushroom. | 01:43 |
| fenn | me either | 01:43 |
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| fenn | this OCD meta anxiety stuff reminds me of autoimmune disorders | 01:45 |
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| fenn | "When dealing with certain complexes of ideas which are known to be infectious, and which appear to be outright harmful, I would argue that it’s fully rational, or metarational, to set those probabilities to zero precisely as a firewall against updating toward them." it takes real bravado to swim in a sewer without holding your nose | 01:52 |
| fenn | i guess i'd rather believe things because i have reasons to, rather than ignore bad ideas with extreme prejudice | 01:53 |
| fenn | there's no chance i'm going to suddenly become a jihadist just by reading some webpages | 01:54 |
| mosasaur | Nick Land takes a long time before he comes out as a dark lord. All the time leading up to that, he continues to say sensible things. | 01:56 |
| fenn | "Cybernetic Culture Research Unit" sounds pretty cool | 01:58 |
| fenn | where do i sign up | 01:58 |
| xmj | 11:12:49 < fenn> patience in a pill, i'd pay good money for that << exists already | 01:59 |
| xmj | smoke weed | 01:59 |
| fenn | doesn't work for me | 01:59 |
| fenn | i just talk to aliens and fall asleep | 02:00 |
| fenn | also, smoking's gross | 02:00 |
| fenn | 'there is no "apple", only "red", "hard", etc. ... an object is only what it "modifies, transforms, perturbs, or creates"' we came to much the same conclusion while designing schema for SKDB | 02:01 |
| fenn | see logs on "what is a chair" | 02:02 |
| fenn | (this is in reference to Nick Land) | 02:02 |
| fenn | functional definition, geometric definition, reference to specific instances, learned model | 02:04 |
| AshleyWaffle | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7XSo6cyWPc | 02:05 |
| fenn | someone op me so i can ban AshleyWaffle for linking a video with zero context or description | 02:06 |
| fenn | yoleaux: come on man, what are you even doing | 02:06 |
| xmj | AshleyWaffle is here too? | 02:06 |
| xmj | damn, where is AshleyWaffle *not* ? | 02:07 |
| AshleyWaffle | fenn: its music | 02:07 |
| AshleyWaffle | wtf | 02:07 |
| AshleyWaffle | ParahSailin: some help here? | 02:07 |
| AshleyWaffle | im being harassed for posting a single link | 02:07 |
| AshleyWaffle | xmj, fenn: parah invited me here, i just idle | 02:08 |
| AshleyWaffle | leave me alone geez | 02:08 |
| AshleyWaffle | anyway, gnight, im tired | 02:08 |
| fenn | please describe links if the url is not descriptive | 02:08 |
| AshleyWaffle | fenn: yes mein fuhrer | 02:08 |
| mosasaur | Don't op fenn, they're too far ahead. OTOH a bot giving some context about a link is pretty standard. | 02:08 |
| * fenn salutes | 02:08 | |
| AshleyWaffle | mosasaur: yeah | 02:08 |
| AshleyWaffle | otoh = ? | 02:09 |
| mosasaur | ... on the other hand | 02:09 |
| AshleyWaffle | ah | 02:09 |
| fenn | it should be noted that i believe in never giving power to those who ask for it | 02:13 |
| mosasaur | AshleyWaffle: It's still unclear what your link is about. I had to click it and it seems to have no relevant content. | 02:13 |
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| fenn | i find it interesting how people can share visual aesthetic preferences but have absolutely no commonality when it comes to music | 02:16 |
| fenn | need to see more data on that | 02:16 |
| fenn | here, have another context-free music video http://vimeo.com/68634031 | 02:18 |
| xmj | fenn: did you get that 'not giving power to those who ask for it' from Hayek ? | 02:19 |
| fenn | no, i came up with it myself just now | 02:19 |
| xmj | fenn: dealing with AshleyWaffle it's best to ignore that person. | 02:19 |
| xmj | AshleyWaffle: skews every signal:noise ratio. heavily in favor of noise. | 02:20 |
| fenn | noise has its function | 02:20 |
| fenn | (ha) | 02:20 |
| fenn | (not the riemann zeta function) | 02:21 |
| ebowden | Oh, hello AshleyWaffle. What do you do? | 02:21 |
| xmj | fenn: i'm not sure if AshleyWaffle is pink or brown noise | 02:22 |
| fenn | security/privacy stuff i think, possibly a fictional person | 02:23 |
| fenn | whatever that means | 02:24 |
| fenn | on the internet, nobody knows you're a god | 02:24 |
| ebowden | Oh, hey mosasaur. What do you do here? | 02:25 |
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| fenn | startup idea: connect hot girls to people wanting to use their pictures for catfishing purposes | 02:28 |
| ebowden | LOL | 02:28 |
| ebowden | You are evil. | 02:29 |
| mosasaur | ebowden: Hi, I'm giving this a test-run for a #lesswrong alternative. | 02:29 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 02:29 |
| fenn | "it's like mysugardaddy meets vampirefreaks. bam!" | 02:29 |
| ebowden | What was #lesswrong? I forgot. | 02:29 |
| fenn | rationality cult | 02:29 |
| ebowden | What's your impression of it fenn? | 02:30 |
| fenn | not that i have anything against rationality, but they seem to go in endless philosophical circles | 02:30 |
| ebowden | And mosasaur, why are you looking for an alternative? | 02:30 |
| fenn | "my ultra meta counters your meta and raises it to the nth level of observed introspection!" | 02:31 |
| ebowden | Oh, ok fenn. | 02:31 |
| ebowden | LOL | 02:31 |
| mosasaur | ebowden: I kind of miss gwern, it would be nice to have them here but without all the star eyed followers (except me ofc) | 02:33 |
| ebowden | LOL | 02:33 |
| ebowden | So, how was gwern? | 02:33 |
| fenn | excessively rigorous in analysis | 02:34 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 02:34 |
| fenn | you saw http://gwern.net/DNB%20FAQ | 02:34 |
| ebowden | What exactly did he do? | 02:34 |
| ebowden | Ah, right. | 02:35 |
| mosasaur | ~ Maybe like paperbot but giving relatively short summaries in the channel | 02:35 |
| ebowden | Well, nice. | 02:35 |
| ebowden | So, anyone on currently who does any kind of science? | 02:36 |
| ebowden | (As in, who is not AFK.) | 02:36 |
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| jrayhawk | .title | 02:36 |
| yoleaux | Dual N-Back FAQ | 02:36 |
| ebowden | *(On as in, who is not AFK.) | 02:36 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: not exactly enlightening if you don't know what Dual N-Back means either | 02:37 |
| jrayhawk | true.dat | 02:37 |
| ebowden | Oh, jrayhawk, did I ask what it was you did here? I'm awfully forgetful today. | 02:38 |
| jrayhawk | that's some brain-trauma level forgetfulness | 02:38 |
| ebowden | Well, I was distracted. | 02:38 |
| ebowden | And I had to shut down my computer. | 02:39 |
| fenn | the functional prepositions for being connected to an IRC channel: in, on, at, around, with, of? | 02:39 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/hovel/100_2631.JPG this is what i do | 02:39 |
| ebowden | Thanks. | 02:39 |
| ebowden | Ah, now I remember. | 02:39 |
| ebowden | Haven't seen the image yet. | 02:40 |
| ebowden | But I know what it is. | 02:40 |
| fenn | what is it? | 02:40 |
| fenn | a dark premonition? | 02:40 |
| jrayhawk | a basilisk? | 02:40 |
| ebowden | Computers, wire and hard drive hanging everywhere. | 02:40 |
| jrayhawk | hooray | 02:40 |
| ebowden | So yes, a dark premonition. | 02:40 |
| ebowden | Sorry, monitors. | 02:41 |
| ebowden | Stacked. | 02:41 |
| fenn | a dark basil disk | 02:41 |
| ebowden | Let's see. | 02:41 |
| ebowden | Oh, yes, they were definitely stacked. | 02:41 |
| fenn | do we have software that can describe images with words yet? | 02:42 |
| fenn | i'm pretty sure the reverse was available several years ago | 02:42 |
| fenn | what i mean: you upload an image url or file, it does some object recognition and compares to a labeled dataset, then builds a graph of object spatial relationships and serializes to english | 02:44 |
| jrayhawk | that'd be cute. AFAIK spatial relationships from single images need manual human hinting at this point. More than one image, though, computers can almost always work out what's going on. | 02:45 |
| fenn | then you can say, "find me that image of a parrot on that guy's head" and, having already indexed all your images, the correct one pops up | 02:45 |
| mosasaur | sounds like streetview doing captcha's although I haven't looked into it | 02:45 |
| fenn | or "images of parrots on heads" or whatever | 02:46 |
| jrayhawk | if you can work out discreet objects, you can do reverse image searches into something like flickr that has an extensive tag interface | 02:46 |
| jrayhawk | er, s/interface/database/ | 02:46 |
| fenn | but tags are human input and folksonomy and auto-tagging and wah | 02:46 |
| fenn | i mean i know my tags would drive an AI insane | 02:47 |
| mosasaur | maybe some offspring of alice x SHRUDLU | 02:47 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oie1ZXWceqM | 02:47 |
| jrayhawk | .title | 02:47 |
| yoleaux | 3-Sweep: Extracting Editable Objects from a Single Photo, SIGGRAPH ASIA 2013 | 02:47 |
| mosasaur | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHRDLU | 02:48 |
| mosasaur | .title | 02:48 |
| yoleaux | mosasaur: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed. | 02:48 |
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| jrayhawk | a worrying thing to crash on | 02:49 |
| mosasaur | yoleaux: It's wikipedia, for christ sake | 02:49 |
| fenn | 3-sweep is very cool, but way more sophisticated than the rough relationships i mean, like "hard drives and wires hanging everywhere" | 02:49 |
| fenn | inverse of http://kottke.org/09/10/from-sketch-to-photo-instantly-this-is-insanely-awesome | 02:52 |
| fenn | i think photosketch actually does something like what i'm describing as an intermediate step | 02:54 |
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| fenn | welp it's been over one year, so long and happy trails academic paper and demo! | 02:57 |
| mosasaur | jrayhawk: nice setup, but lose the armrests. You'll thank me later for it. | 02:59 |
| jrayhawk | I've switched over to a standing desk anyway. | 03:02 |
| mosasaur | Oh wait, does that chair even rotate? | 03:02 |
| jrayhawk | yes | 03:02 |
| mosasaur | I tried standing desks but my feet aren't up to it, a pole to stabilize or lean on to helped a lot though, as did a somewhat spongy mat to stand on. By now I just use multiple chairs and tuck one foot in a lot (and switch which foot it is often). | 03:05 |
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| fenn | "I used to have some pretty mysterious health issues related to muscle, joint, and nerve problems. When I first got them checked out, my doctor told me it was stress. I told him that I didn’t feel stressed out, but my dad agreed with the doctor, and said that I did have an “overactive imagination.” Eventually I began to believe that I really did stress out too much. Then I began stressing | 03:11 |
| fenn | out about being stressed out. Then I found out I had Celiac’s disease." | 03:11 |
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| mosasaur | I've got a chair in the sun on my balcony and an e-ink device for offline reading, and a very flat thing I can use to sit on in tailor's position. | 03:15 |
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| mosasaur | fenn: I had the same kind of symptoms, but it turns out my body just doesn't like carbs anymore. I'm fine now. | 03:17 |
| mosasaur | The only way to find out about such things, and many others, in the first place is to fast now and then, by the way. | 03:18 |
| mosasaur | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7610583 | 03:22 |
| mosasaur | .title | 03:22 |
| yoleaux | Processed foods that dilute protein content subvert our appetite control systems | 03:22 |
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| fenn | this page is almost a self-parody of wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitting | 03:41 |
| xmj | yoleaux: do you know many rational people that eat processed foods? | 03:42 |
| nsh | .py print "no, i don't..." | 03:43 |
| yoleaux | no, i don't... | 03:43 |
| xmj | .py print "too easy." | 03:43 |
| yoleaux | too easy. | 03:43 |
| mosasaur | .py print 2**100 | 03:44 |
| yoleaux | 1267650600228229401496703205376 | 03:44 |
| mosasaur | :-) | 03:44 |
| Adifex | .py print 2**101 | 03:45 |
| yoleaux | 2535301200456458802993406410752 | 03:45 |
| Adifex | well | 03:45 |
| Adifex | it keeps going | 03:45 |
| xmj | i wonder how much it'll take to crash the bot. | 03:46 |
| xmj | or download an arbitrarily large number of random data. | 03:46 |
| fenn | .py fork = lambda: fork(); fork(); print "meep?" | 03:49 |
| yoleaux | NameError: global name 'fork' is not defined | 03:49 |
| superkuh | Activity on the Open-rtms-list this week. That's rare. | 03:49 |
| fenn | huh | 03:49 |
| xmj | ha ha. | 03:50 |
| fenn | fork=1; fork = lambda: fork(); fork(); | 03:50 |
| fenn | *bonk* | 03:50 |
| nsh | .py is hosted on google app engine | 03:51 |
| yoleaux | SyntaxError: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1) | 03:51 |
| fenn | .py fork=1; fork = lambda: fork(); fork(); print "i have no idea what will happen now" | 03:51 |
| yoleaux | NameError: global name 'fork' is not defined | 03:51 |
| fenn | it out stupided me | 03:52 |
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| mosasaur | .py a=1; print a | 03:56 |
| yoleaux | 1 | 03:56 |
| fenn | .py a='print ".py" a'; print a | 03:59 |
| yoleaux | print ".py" a | 03:59 |
| fenn | eh that never would have worked anyway | 04:00 |
| fenn | .py a='.py print ".py" a'; print a | 04:01 |
| yoleaux | .py print ".py" a | 04:01 |
| xmj | fenn: quine? | 04:01 |
| fenn | no | 04:01 |
| xmj | close | 04:01 |
| fenn | i was trying to make it trigger itself to do something else | 04:03 |
| fenn | alright how the fuck does this work | 04:09 |
| fenn | .py "x='x=%s;x%%`x`';x%`x`" | 04:09 |
| yoleaux | x='x=%s;x%%`x`';x%`x` | 04:09 |
| fenn | python has backticks? | 04:10 |
| fenn | backtick is repr() so it's the same as x='x=%s; x%%repr(x)'; x%repr(x) but that probably doesn't elucidate the structure | 04:16 |
| mosasaur | .py import os; os.listdir('.') | 04:17 |
| fenn | .botsnack | 04:19 |
| yoleaux | :D | 04:19 |
| mosasaur | .py import os; print os.listdir('.') | 04:20 |
| yoleaux | ['BeautifulSoup.py', 'talis.xsl', 'pytz', 'service', 'feedparser.py', '_ah', 'index.yaml', 'xpath', 'unescape.py', 'simplejson', 'README.md', 'main.py', 'html2text.py', 'app.yaml', 'dateutil', 'html5lib', 'chardet'] | 04:20 |
| mosasaur | ah | 04:20 |
| fenn | i'm surprised that worked | 04:20 |
| fenn | .py print open('app.yaml').readlines() | 04:21 |
| yoleaux | ['application: tumbolia\n', 'version: 1\n', 'runtime: python\n', 'api_version: 1\n', '\n', 'handlers:\n', '- url: /.*\n', ' script: main.py\n'] | 04:21 |
| fenn | In Douglas Hofstadter's Gödel, Escher, Bach, Tumbolia is "the land of dead hiccups and extinguished light bulbs", "where dormant software waits for its host hardware to come back up" | 04:22 |
| fenn | Tumbolia is where dreamed characters go when the dreamer wakes up. | 04:24 |
| fenn | .py print open('main.py').readlines() | 04:25 |
| yoleaux | ['import wsgiref.handlers\n', '\n', 'from google.appengine.ext import webapp\n', '\n', 'from service import base\n', 'from service import mirror\n', 'from service import identica\n', 'from service import lastfm\n', 'from service import fact\n', 'from service import steps\n', 'from service import soccer\n', 'from service import stupid\n', 'from service import ticket\n', 'from service import unicode | 04:25 |
| fenn | stupid? | 04:25 |
| fenn | .py print stupid.__doc__ | 04:27 |
| yoleaux | NameError: name 'stupid' is not defined | 04:27 |
| fenn | that's some other app, unrelated to the chatbot | 04:27 |
| fenn | .py print py.__doc__ | 04:28 |
| yoleaux | NameError: name 'py' is not defined | 04:28 |
| fenn | .py print service.py.__doc__ | 04:28 |
| yoleaux | NameError: name 'service' is not defined | 04:28 |
| mosasaur | .py print dir() | 04:28 |
| yoleaux | ['args', 'command', 'output', 'self'] | 04:28 |
| fenn | main.py is from https://github.com/nslater/oblique | 04:29 |
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| fenn | .py print open('_ah').readlines() | 04:30 |
| yoleaux | IOError: [Errno 21] Is a directory | 04:30 |
| fenn | .py import os; print os.listdir('_ah') | 04:31 |
| yoleaux | ['python_bytecode'] | 04:31 |
| mosasaur | .py print dir(self) | 04:32 |
| yoleaux | ['__class__', '__delattr__', '__dict__', '__doc__', '__getattribute__', '__hash__', '__init__', '__module__', '__new__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__setattr__', '__str__', '__weakref__', 'delete', 'error', 'get', 'get_url', 'handle_exception', 'head', 'initialize', 'new_factory', 'ok', 'options', 'post', 'put', 'redirect', 'request', 'response', 'trace'] | 04:32 |
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| fenn | so the chatbot is constantly loading webpages? wtf | 04:33 |
| mosasaur | .py print dir(command) | 04:34 |
| yoleaux | ['__add__', '__class__', '__contains__', '__delattr__', '__doc__', '__eq__', '__ge__', '__getattribute__', '__getitem__', '__getnewargs__', '__getslice__', '__gt__', '__hash__', '__init__', '__le__', '__len__', '__lt__', '__mod__', '__mul__', '__ne__', '__new__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__rmod__', '__rmul__', '__setattr__', '__str__', 'capitalize', 'center', 'count', 'decode', | 04:34 |
| xmj | fenn: i wonder if you could trick yoleaux into rm -rf / | 04:35 |
| fenn | probably, but what's the point | 04:35 |
| fenn | it's running in a minimal virtualized container | 04:36 |
| xmj | "don't run things as root" | 04:37 |
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| fenn | do you know how things like heroku work? | 04:37 |
| fenn | or google app engine (which is what this is) | 04:38 |
| fenn | .stupid https://developers.google.com/appengine/docs/whatisgoogleappengine | 04:40 |
| fenn | .stupid https://github.com/nslater/oblique/blob/master/service/stupid.py | 04:41 |
| fenn | i don't get it | 04:41 |
| fenn | "The solution we're creating is simple: an open-source filter software that can detect rampant stupidity in written English. This will be accomplished with weighted Bayesian or similar analysis and some rules-based processing, similar to spam detection engines." | 04:43 |
| fenn | but the service went down a couple months ago i guess | 04:43 |
| fenn | .stupid https://developers.google.com/appengine/docs/whatisgoogleappengine | 04:45 |
| xmj | I don't really care about those. Don't run things as root and stuff like rm -rf / won't even pass through. | 04:45 |
| fenn | .stupid hmm | 04:46 |
| fenn | i think stupidfilter.org is not working correctly or at all | 04:47 |
| fenn | "Your application runs within its own secure, reliable environment that is independent of the hardware, operating system, or physical location of the server." | 04:49 |
| fenn | so basically you are trying to hack google's public-facing infrastructure. good luck with that | 04:49 |
| fenn | and even then, any google employee can instantiate a few thousand servers with a single command, so i still don't see the point | 04:53 |
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| fenn | .fact | 04:57 |
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| fenn | .mirror | 05:02 |
| fenn | .mirror adar whee | 05:03 |
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| fenn | i guess the lesson here is that you shouldn't design anything around web services and expect it to last more than a few years | 05:06 |
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| fenn | .internet foo | 05:11 |
| fenn | .py print args | 05:15 |
| yoleaux | ('/print%20args', 'print%20args') | 05:15 |
| fenn | .py print locals | 05:16 |
| yoleaux | <built-in function locals> | 05:16 |
| fenn | .py print locals() | 05:16 |
| yoleaux | {'output': <StringIO.StringIO instance at 0x35d0a467507a16d0>, 'self': <service.py.Main object at 0x35d0a46750b658a8>, 'args': ('/print%20locals%28%29', 'print%20locals%28%29'), 'command': 'print locals()'} | 05:16 |
| fenn | .py print globals() | 05:16 |
| yoleaux | {'load': <function load at 0x35d0a46750b79a18>, 'text': <function text at 0x35d0a46750b793a8>, 'codecs': <module 'codecs' from '/base/data/home/runtimes/python/python_dist/lib/python2.5/codecs.py'>, 'datetime': <module 'datetime' (built-in)>, 'api': <module 'google.appengine.api' from '/base/data/home/runtimes/python/python_lib/versions/1/google/appengine/api/__init__.py'>, 'encodings': <module 'e | 05:16 |
| fenn | .py print globals()['uris'] | 05:17 |
| yoleaux | KeyError: 'uris' | 05:17 |
| mosasaur | .py import sys; print sys.argv | 05:18 |
| yoleaux | [''] | 05:18 |
| ebowden | Oh, have I asked, what does ParahSailin do here? | 05:18 |
| fenn | ParahSailin is the registered snarkmaster | 05:18 |
| fenn | .py print uris | 05:19 |
| yoleaux | NameError: name 'uris' is not defined | 05:19 |
| fenn | .py print dir() | 05:19 |
| yoleaux | ['args', 'command', 'output', 'self'] | 05:19 |
| fenn | huh. | 05:19 |
| ebowden | What apart from snarkiness? | 05:19 |
| fenn | i don't remember, sorry. | 05:20 |
| fenn | .logs | 05:20 |
| mosasaur | .py print globals() | 05:20 |
| yoleaux | {'load': <function load at 0x35d0a46750b79a18>, 'text': <function text at 0x35d0a46750b793a8>, 'codecs': <module 'codecs' from '/base/data/home/runtimes/python/python_dist/lib/python2.5/codecs.py'>, 'datetime': <module 'datetime' (built-in)>, 'api': <module 'google.appengine.api' from '/base/data/home/runtimes/python/python_lib/versions/1/google/appengine/api/__init__.py'>, 'encodings': <module 'e | 05:20 |
| fenn | gnusha: bookmark | 05:20 |
| fenn | ebowden: you can come up with entertaining theories based on the links ve posts: http://gnusha.org/logs/parah.txt | 05:21 |
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| ebowden | Oh thanks. | 05:22 |
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| mosasaur | If we only had a way to make it print things in consecutive posts, so that it wouldn't get clipped. | 05:25 |
| mosasaur | something like gwern(x) | 05:26 |
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| fenn | ebowden: probably something in biotech or academic synthetic bio lab | 05:28 |
| ebowden | What would probably be something in biotech? | 05:29 |
| ebowden | Sorry, I've missed something, I don't mean to frustrate. | 05:29 |
| fenn | parahsailin's professed profession | 05:29 |
| ebowden | Oh, ok. | 05:30 |
| ebowden | Thank's fenn. | 05:30 |
| fenn | mosasaur: the problem is that the .py function is locally scoped so you can't really see anything | 05:30 |
| ebowden | Sorry, I don't mean to be exasperating. | 05:30 |
| FourFire | mosasaur, I'd use gwern(x) | 05:31 |
| fenn | is that some hot new nootropic | 05:31 |
| fenn | all the cool kids are using gwern, dude | 05:31 |
| FourFire | ;P | 05:31 |
| ebowden | LOL | 05:32 |
| FourFire | fenn incase you're serious: gwern.net | 05:32 |
| ebowden | I wonder if someone will ever come out with a nootropic that gives you the voice of the Ginger Bread Man from Shrek. | 05:32 |
| fenn | if you thought i was being funny you should read it again | 05:32 |
| fenn | .speak woof woof | 05:34 |
| fenn | i think a lot of these services are just turned off | 05:34 |
| ebowden | Oh, no, I didn't, It just seemed appropriate. | 05:34 |
| ebowden | *it | 05:35 |
| ebowden | I didn't mean to sound mean, sorry about that. | 05:36 |
| fenn | nevermind. some things you either get it or you don't | 05:36 |
| fenn | .py foo=open('main.py'); foo.read(800); print foo.readlines() | 05:43 |
| yoleaux | ['e import jargon\n', '\n', 'uris = [\n', ' ("^/$", base.Index),\n', ' ("^/mirror(/.*?)?", mirror.Main),\n', ' ("^/identica(/(.*?))?(/(.*?))?/?", identica.Main),\n', ' ("^/lastfm(/(.*?))?(/(.*?))?/?", lastfm.Main),\n', ' ("^/fact(/(.*?))?/?", fact.Main),\n', ' ("^/soccer(/(.*?))?/?", soccer.Main),\n', ' ("^/steps(/(.*?))?/?", steps.Main),\n', ' ("^/stupid(/(.*?))?/?", stupid.Main),\n', ' | 05:43 |
| fenn | .twit fakeeliezer | 05:47 |
| mosasaur | fenn: now make it post it as a pastie somewhere | 05:49 |
| fenn | .py from service import twit; twit.Main.get('fakeeliezer') | 05:50 |
| yoleaux | TypeError: unbound method get() must be called with Main instance as first argument (got str instance instead) | 05:50 |
| mosasaur | or better, let it read some source from a pastie | 05:50 |
| fenn | .py from service import twit; twit.Main().get('fakeeliezer') | 05:50 |
| yoleaux | AttributeError: 'Main' object has no attribute 'response' | 05:50 |
| fenn | oh ffs | 05:50 |
| fenn | .py from google.appengine.ext import webapp; foo=webapp.RequestHandler(); from service import twit; twit.Main(foo).get('fakeeliezer') | 05:53 |
| yoleaux | TypeError: default __new__ takes no parameters | 05:53 |
| fenn | yoleaux: okay you can just go to hell | 05:54 |
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| fenn | .py from google.appengine.ext import webapp; foo=webapp.RequestHandler(); from service import twit; twit.Main.get(foo, 'fakeeliezer') | 05:57 |
| yoleaux | TypeError: unbound method get() must be called with Main instance as first argument (got RequestHandler instance instead) | 05:57 |
| fenn | so much for duck typing | 05:58 |
| ebowden | Fenn, did someone program yoleaux to feel hatred? | 05:58 |
| mosasaur | .py from service import twit; print dir(twit) | 05:59 |
| yoleaux | ['Main', '__builtins__', '__compiled__', '__doc__', '__file__', '__name__', 'api', 'base', 'fetchbyID', 'format', 'json', 're', 'urllib'] | 05:59 |
| mosasaur | .py from service import twit; print dir(twit.fetchbyID) | 06:00 |
| yoleaux | ['__call__', '__class__', '__delattr__', '__dict__', '__doc__', '__get__', '__getattribute__', '__hash__', '__init__', '__module__', '__name__', '__new__', '__reduce__', '__reduce_ex__', '__repr__', '__setattr__', '__str__', 'func_closure', 'func_code', 'func_defaults', 'func_dict', 'func_doc', 'func_globals', 'func_name'] | 06:00 |
| ebowden | Anyway, now we all know about this neurofeedback thing, if it were transferable, what would you be using it for fenn? | 06:00 |
| mosasaur | .py from service import twit; print twit.fetchbyID('fakeeliezer') | 06:02 |
| yoleaux | could not fetch tweet by ID | 06:02 |
| ebowden | (Well, we all means; "A select group of people on here who read the article. But you know what I mean.) | 06:03 |
| fenn | i maintain that there's nothing special going on, they just said the same thing in two languages as far as the brain is concerned | 06:04 |
| ebowden | Well, yes. | 06:05 |
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| ebowden | But it might allow us to do some things we previously couldn't do. | 06:06 |
| fenn | mosasaur: i think twit.Main gets called when Phenny (i hate that name) contacts the webapp running in google app engine and it parses the url of the request.. i think it's time for bed for me though | 06:09 |
| ebowden | Oh, goodnight fenn. | 06:09 |
| mosasaur | night fenn. It was a nice pair coding session ;-) | 06:10 |
| FourFire | ebowden, which neurofeedback thing? | 06:11 |
| FourFire | link? | 06:11 |
| ebowden | Oh, one sec FourFire. | 06:11 |
| ebowden | http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3297423/pdf/nihms-359501.pdf | 06:12 |
| ebowden | There we are. | 06:12 |
| FourFire | I've interested in neurofeedback ever since I somehow got control over my heartbeat, once, but I'm not sure about any current consumer level technology. | 06:12 |
| ebowden | Basically might be useful for 'training' areas that would normally be fairly immune from 're-wiring' due to the development of task specific strategies. | 06:14 |
| FourFire | interesting | 06:15 |
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| @ParahSailin | fenn: no, i have forsworn snark | 08:14 |
| ebowden | So, you're into biotech? :D | 08:19 |
| ebowden | ParahSailin? | 08:22 |
| @ParahSailin | oh i do bioinformatics | 08:23 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 08:23 |
| ebowden | What exactly is that, if you'll forgive my asking? | 08:24 |
| @ParahSailin | https://www.eurekagenomics.com i work for these guys | 08:25 |
| ebowden | Oh, ok. | 08:25 |
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| ebowden | So, is part of what you do sequencing genomes, and figuring out better ways to sequence genomes? | 08:28 |
| ebowden | ? | 08:29 |
| @ParahSailin | mostly finding useful things to do with next gen sequencers other than sequencing genomes | 08:31 |
| ebowden | ParahSailin? | 08:31 |
| @ParahSailin | cow genotyping is one | 08:32 |
| ebowden | Oh,sorry. | 08:32 |
| ebowden | Didn't show your response. | 08:32 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 08:32 |
| ebowden | So, you get to publish much? | 08:33 |
| @ParahSailin | not at all | 08:35 |
| ebowden | Seems the case when people go private. | 08:35 |
| ebowden | There are a surprising number of highly qualified people here. | 08:37 |
| ebowden | So, why did you come here? | 08:37 |
| ebowden | (As in, join this chan.) | 08:39 |
| ebowden | Not meant in a snarky way, just curious. | 08:40 |
| @ParahSailin | a friend told me about it | 08:41 |
| ebowden | That's how I got here too. | 08:41 |
| ebowden | What is it this place does that takes your fancy? | 08:42 |
| ebowden | Am I prying a nit too much? | 08:44 |
| chris_99 | you guys may possibly be interested in these photos http://www.shinsekai-th.com/en/photo.php he's somehow preserved creatures, but dyed them in pyschedelic colours | 08:45 |
| ebowden | Wow. | 08:46 |
| ebowden | That is so neat. | 08:46 |
| cluckj | nice | 08:46 |
| chris_99 | if anyone happens to be in Austria, you can go see them in a cool science/art place called ars electronica | 08:47 |
| ebowden | I do not. | 08:48 |
| @ParahSailin | ebowden: no, im just occupied atm | 08:48 |
| ebowden | Oh, ok, thanks. | 08:49 |
| ebowden | *bit | 08:49 |
| chris_99 | so random question, theres no such thing as a DIY mass spectrometer is there? | 08:49 |
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| cluckj | sort of | 08:53 |
| cluckj | you can theoretically build one with an old CRT but risk nuking yourself | 08:54 |
| chris_99 | with a CRT? sounds interesting, do you have any links with that | 08:55 |
| cluckj | might be easier to hit craigslist | 08:55 |
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| cluckj | no links | 09:00 |
| chris_99 | alas, i'll do some googling, but first i must forage for food | 09:01 |
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| @kanzure | fenn: re: serotonin and dopamine hammer-nail syndrome, i've been calling that neurotransmitter reductionism | 09:27 |
| nsh | a not-particularly-special case of humans are stupid | 09:28 |
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| @kanzure | .py print globals().keys()[0:10] | 09:34 |
| yoleaux | ['load', 'text', 'codecs', 'datetime', 'api', 'encodings', 'operator', 'path', 'dateutil', 'Main'] | 09:34 |
| @kanzure | what's the difference between sleeping pods, body bags and the one humans take camping? | 09:48 |
| @kanzure | "if you buy now, you'll get not one but TWO body bags" | 09:50 |
| @kanzure | brought to you by the body bag corporation | 09:51 |
| @kanzure | i wonder if you can request a body bag with an oxygen supply or air hole | 09:54 |
| nsh | or maybe a nitrous-oxide supply | 09:55 |
| nsh | i get oxygen for free | 09:55 |
| @kanzure | in a body bag? | 09:55 |
| @kanzure | usually they zip those up yo | 09:55 |
| nsh | i'm usually on the outside yo | 09:56 |
| nsh | usually... | 09:56 |
| nsh | i assume forensic body-bags aren't really designed for human comfort | 09:56 |
| nsh | mostly keeping the ick on the inside | 09:56 |
| nsh | and minimizing contamination | 09:56 |
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| @kanzure | "Hall’s Law: the maximum complexity of artifacts that can be manufactured at scales limited only by resource availability doubles every 10 years." | 11:02 |
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| Allah | 11:52 | |
| mosasaur | .py a=file('gwern.py','w'); a.write("print 'hi'\n");a.flush();import gwern | 11:57 |
| yoleaux | IOError: invalid mode: w | 11:57 |
| @kanzure | "computational paranoia: the generative production of paranoid delusions or thoughts from simple models" | 12:03 |
| Allah | thats what meth is for | 12:05 |
| Allah | and/or religion | 12:05 |
| nsh | .py open("/proc/1/cmdline").read() | 12:18 |
| yoleaux | IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied: '/proc/1/cmdline' | 12:18 |
| * nsh bets GAE engineers spent more time thinking about this than he can be bothered to | 12:19 | |
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| @kanzure | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Octopus_shell.jpg | 12:41 |
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| -!- Allah is now known as GoatStimulator | 12:51 | |
| @kanzure | http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-20/peak-smuggling-indian-has-12-gold-bars-removed-his-stomach "While US central bankers seem to believe that you can eat iPads, it seems one Indian fellow has taken the ongoing restrictions on gold imports, owning, or transacting in India to a whole new level. As we have noted previously - have led to an epidemic of smuggling as Indians continue to horde the precious metal (the only true source of ... | 12:52 |
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| @kanzure | ... financial security in their view) by any means possible. As The BBC reports, 12 bars of gold have been removed from the stomach of a 63-year-old businessman in the Indian capital Delhi." | 12:52 |
| GoatStimulator | 12 gold bars | 12:53 |
| GoatStimulator | .... | 12:53 |
| GoatStimulator | ive heard about people finding random gold bars in airplanes lately | 12:53 |
| GoatStimulator | must be hideing them up their arse | 12:53 |
| GoatStimulator | thats almost 150lbs of gold | 12:54 |
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| @kanzure | "doc, my gold bars are feeling sorta funny today" | 12:58 |
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| streety | As fantastic as it would be for someone to be walking around with 150 lb of gold in their stomach in this case the bars were somewhat smaller. Just 14 oz total | 13:22 |
| streety | http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-27076019 | 13:22 |
| @kanzure | party pooper | 13:22 |
| streety | Seems like it would be a lot simpler switching out gold plated items for solid gold items | 13:23 |
| streety | as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldfinger_%28film%29 | 13:24 |
| justanotheruser | If you had 150lbs of gold in your stomach, i would assume you would probably be normalish in size but 300lbs. Now I want a picture. | 13:25 |
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| jrayhawk | colonic smuggling seems one hell of a lot safer and easier and cheaper | 13:37 |
| @kanzure | surely there's room inside the chest cavity or something | 13:39 |
| FourFire | chest cavity stuff is dangerous | 13:42 |
| GoatStimulator | if you turned someoen upside down and pumped liquid gold into their intestines through their anus i wonder how long theyd survive | 13:42 |
| FourFire | liquid? | 13:42 |
| GoatStimulator | we should find a test subject | 13:42 |
| @kanzure | i'm pretty sure the nazis did that one | 13:42 |
| @kanzure | or was that a porno | 13:43 |
| @kanzure | you can see how i might get the two mixed up | 13:43 |
| streety | if by liquid gold you mean molten then I'm guessing not long | 13:47 |
| cluckj | or colloidal | 13:48 |
| cluckj | you'd get heavy metal poisoning pretty quickly | 13:48 |
| streety | Difficult to recover as well | 13:49 |
| @kanzure | "In a well-factored system, the cost of adding a new feature should place you in less debt than writing the same code from scratch, depending on how much of the existing system you are able to reuse, or refactor to allow the feature to be added. Even if there is no chance to reuse code, the patterns of the existing system can be reused to reduce the number of design decisions you have to make." | 13:52 |
| @kanzure | http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DesignDebt | 13:52 |
| @kanzure | http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TechnicalFutures | 13:57 |
| @kanzure | "A former colleague of mine (http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ensjbb/) introduced me to this idea when we were working on a CIM project that required the introduction of computer networking on the shop floor of an engineering factory (in 1990 this was quite exciting). We knew that it was TheRightThingToDo? but the investment appraisal models used in engineering factories at the time required something more solid than gut feeling. Jerry developed an ... | 13:57 |
| @kanzure | ... analogy with the financial futures markets." | 13:57 |
| @kanzure | "The idea is that you can pay a small amount of money now to buy the opportunity to do something later (usually at a specified price). If you choose not to do the thing later, then your money is lost. If you exercise your option, then getting the benefit for the previously specified price constitutes a return on your investment of the option price earlier on. (This concept should be fairly familiar to most of us in the industry, now that ... | 13:57 |
| @kanzure | ... share options are a standard form of incentive.)" | 13:57 |
| @kanzure | "If you want to invest in some technology (let's say for example a refactoring project, or a clean but more expensive first write), you can sometimes justify the expenditure by explaining that it will give you the potential to take on tasks or projects that would otherwise be impossible or more difficult/expensive. Potential is worth money. The financial markets understand this, investors in technology start-ups understand this, and software ... | 13:57 |
| @kanzure | ... professionals ought to understand it too. -- DominicCronin" | 13:57 |
| cpopell | I'm pretty sure there's been plenty of studies on this | 13:57 |
| @kanzure | i haven't seen a satisfactory treatment of technical debt, ever | 13:58 |
| cpopell | well, from the opposite perspective, the cost adding features during different stages of projects | 13:58 |
| @kanzure | what about it | 14:00 |
| cpopell | seems related to the long paragraph you just posted | 14:00 |
| @kanzure | that's not enough for me to figure out what you're trying to communicate | 14:01 |
| cpopell | I'm communicating poorly and will return to my shame-hole until I figure out how to concretize the thought I am failing to express. | 14:01 |
| @kanzure | k | 14:02 |
| @kanzure | Customer: I need a program to do foobar, and I need it now. I don't care about quality. | 14:30 |
| @kanzure | Me: In that case, I'm already done. Just run "foobar.exe" on your machine. That'll be $100,000. | 14:30 |
| @kanzure | Customer: When I type "foobar.exe", I get "File Not Found". | 14:30 |
| @kanzure | Me: Well, obviously I had to leave a few errors in to meet your aggressive schedule. I'll be happy to fix them, for a price. | 14:30 |
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| @kanzure | http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?FirstLawOfProgramming | 14:30 |
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| @kanzure | "To me, this seems somewhat absurd regardless of your DefinitionOfQuality?, as it means that arbitrarily small time project time scale (e.g. 1 second) would lead to inversely proportionally high quality. In the limit, this leads to the logical conclusion that not doing a project gives the highest possible quality solution, which I'm not sure many customers seeking a high quality solution would accept." | 14:32 |
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| xentrac | I think someone talked to me in here days ago that I didn't see, it scrolled off my scrollback | 14:38 |
| @kanzure | there are logs here: http://gnusha.org/logs/ | 14:39 |
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| @kanzure | 2014-03-22 [23:44:20] <dpk> (openssl was vetted, it came back HIV-positive) | 14:46 |
| xentrac | 01:05 < ParahSailin> extremely specific | 14:47 |
| xentrac | 01:05 < fenn> um, yeah. it kills the tuberculosis, not you. | 14:47 |
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| xentrac | the problem is that the phage therapy that kills your tuberculosis won't kill somebody else's tuberculosis, I think, and that's the "extreme specificity" problem | 14:48 |
| xentrac | this doesn't fit very well into the clinical trial framework | 14:48 |
| @ParahSailin | or even kills certain subpopulations but not everything | 14:49 |
| nsh | or even kills all humons | 14:53 |
| nsh | converts earth into phage fairground | 14:53 |
| yashgaroth | also TB being mostly intracellular seems like it would complicate phage therapy | 14:54 |
| yoleaux | 06:10Z <fenn> yashgaroth: why did DTRA tell you to stop myostatin research? did they explain their rationale? is it explained somewhere? honestly this seems like something DARPA would be interested in developing, not trying to squash (unless they already secretly have it) | 14:54 |
| yashgaroth | botsnack | 14:54 |
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| yashgaroth | oh fenn if you read the logs, they didn't tell me to stop | 14:57 |
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| xentrac | it seems like a reasonable substitute for clinical trials might be fine-grained tracking of an individual patient's biological response | 14:59 |
| xentrac | levels of a few thousand key chemicals in their blood or CSF or what have you | 15:00 |
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| dingo | http://1984.ws/nhgame.txt | 15:02 |
| dingo | my best game of nethack in a long while | 15:02 |
| dingo | this is my year man, i can feel it | 15:02 |
| dingo | i'll beat this stupid game | 15:02 |
| @kanzure | you've been preparing for this all your life | 15:02 |
| @kanzure | (don't fuck it up) | 15:02 |
| xentrac | thanks for the logs, kanzure | 15:06 |
| @kanzure | a land of oz and weirdness | 15:06 |
| xentrac | ParahSailin: right, exactly | 15:10 |
| xentrac | dingo: cool | 15:10 |
| @ParahSailin | i guess that was seen as snarky | 15:11 |
| xentrac | fenn: I don't understand what you mean about the laser beam and the guide stars and the mylar blanket and the phased microphone array | 15:11 |
| xentrac | dingo: why do you maintain wands of striking with charges? I have the impression that they're sort of weak; is that not true? | 15:15 |
| xentrac | similarly magic missile | 15:15 |
| @kanzure | does a chemical reaction require a clinical trial? there are many alternatives | 15:16 |
| xentrac | that's quite an array of items there | 15:16 |
| xentrac | kanzure: I think that if you're going to use the chemical reaction to treat diseases, the FDA will demand a clinical trial of you | 15:16 |
| @kanzure | insert random utilitarian "save as many people as possible" bullshit here as excuse to bypass FDA | 15:17 |
| @kanzure | (i don't feel very strongly about that particular argument, which is why i am not bothering to elaborate on it) | 15:17 |
| @kanzure | although i do feel strongly that there exists reasons to not care about the FDA | 15:17 |
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| dingo | xentrac: actually just combining random crap to polypile at that moment | 15:19 |
| xentrac | dingo: aha, I see | 15:20 |
| xentrac | kanzure: the FDA provides the useful function of letting people know which drugs are real and which ones are fake better than the pre-FDA market did | 15:21 |
| xentrac | perhaps a different social institution would work better | 15:21 |
| @kanzure | whether or not the FDA agrees about (say) a simple chemical reaction does not tell me about the underlying reality | 15:22 |
| @kanzure | same goes for other possible social institutions | 15:22 |
| xentrac | oh, I see | 15:24 |
| @kanzure | i agree that there is a problem regarding "authority" and "knowledge diffusion" or something, but i'm not sure that's the same problem as "this physical reaction is really happening" | 15:24 |
| xentrac | I didn't realize you were talking about epistemology | 15:24 |
| xentrac | I thought you were talking about the practicalities of making phage therapy available to people | 15:24 |
| @kanzure | there are certain treatments or uh interventions that are much easier to measure on an individual n=1 scale, although i could imagine entire classes of problems that will always require large "clinicial" trials | 15:25 |
| xentrac | I think it's clear that phage therapy, like surgery, is often effective | 15:25 |
| cluckj | iirc you can still get caplets of phages in russia to treat bacterial infection | 15:25 |
| xentrac | what, like over-the-counter phage therapy? | 15:26 |
| xentrac | I thought you had to go to a clinic so they could figure out which phage to use | 15:26 |
| cluckj | yes | 15:27 |
| @kanzure | xentrac: a curious artifact of the internet, http://web.archive.org/web/20130703235206/https://www.opencures.org/about | 15:27 |
| @kanzure | his plan was to use medical tourism as a financial vehicle for overseas stem cell and other work | 15:28 |
| @kanzure | as a way to route around the FDA | 15:29 |
| @kanzure | i guess it's not the best thing i could possibly link to though, there's a bunch of holes in his execution | 15:29 |
| @kanzure | like delicious swiss cheese | 15:30 |
| da_shirlz_HBIC_ | paperbot http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3119260/ | 15:32 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/c7024f152d5206fd0a213a15d65b2c4e.txt | 15:32 |
| @kanzure | ncbi often doesn't host content, just abstracts | 15:32 |
| xentrac | medical tourism is a good idea | 15:32 |
| da_shirlz_HBIC_ | danke | 15:33 |
| FourFire | "insert random utilitarian "save as many people as possible" bullshit here as excuse to bypass FDA" only if you know that it works, for sure | 15:33 |
| @kanzure | what part of my unwillingness to elaborate that thought was incomprehensible | 15:34 |
| @kanzure | there are very obvious problems to it | 15:34 |
| da_shirlz_HBIC_ | I think working around the FDA only creates programs to benefit those with the resources to do so. If the idea is a better world for all, you must work to change the establishment. | 15:35 |
| @kanzure | and then you start to sound like david pearce and that's going to end badly | 15:35 |
| nsh | .wik David PEarce | 15:48 |
| yoleaux | "Dave Pearce or David Pearce may refer to:" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Pearce | 15:48 |
| nsh | .wik David Pearce wanker | 15:49 |
| yoleaux | "Nicholas John "Nick" Griffin (born 1 March 1959) is a British politician, chairman of the British National Party (BNP) and Member of the European Parliament (MEP) for North West England." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Griffin | 15:49 |
| nsh | ahaha | 15:49 |
| nsh | +1 googlepedia | 15:49 |
| cpopell | this one nsh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Pearce_(philosopher) | 15:51 |
| nsh | oh, right | 15:51 |
| cpopell | he also owns a bazillion domain names | 15:51 |
| nsh | brain says "popular philosopher" | 15:51 |
| nsh | which is braincode for twat | 15:51 |
| nsh | paradise engineering wheeeeeee | 15:52 |
| cpopell | he's basically for wireheading | 15:52 |
| cpopell | via engineering society | 15:52 |
| cpopell | 'The world's last aversive experience will be a precisely dateable event.' | 15:53 |
| * nsh frowns | 15:53 | |
| nsh | why do people take this sort of thing seriously? are they just terminologically dazzled or something? | 15:54 |
| @kanzure | :) | 15:54 |
| cpopell | https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1ZKNIQOfy_V_tmI-uPNOh1m3cg99e2T0iKBRD3U4mFEc Grandroids dev journal btw | 15:55 |
| @kanzure | i am glad i do not have to spell out why this guy is evil | 15:55 |
| cpopell | he and Andre get along real well | 15:55 |
| nsh | this guy is basically just an internet kook, only he had the luck to be educated at oxford and (presumably) well-connected enough to be humoured a lot | 15:56 |
| @kanzure | but also some fundamentally bad philosophizing | 15:56 |
| @kanzure | abolition of negative numbers | 15:57 |
| @kanzure | someone get greg egan on the phone | 15:57 |
| @kanzure | sorry i mean the space phone | 15:58 |
| nsh | leave egan alone | 16:00 |
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| nsh | he's a good chap | 16:00 |
| @kanzure | maybe if i bug him enough he'll write more | 16:00 |
| * nsh smiles | 16:00 | |
| nsh | i complained to him once about using the trope "a gene for X" | 16:00 |
| cpopell | gwern wanted to shank me for emailing Vernor Vinge | 16:00 |
| nsh | he wasn't impressed | 16:00 |
| @kanzure | what was the shankworthy email? | 16:01 |
| cpopell | the fact I did it at all | 16:01 |
| cpopell | he didn't care about content, possible delay of 5 minutes of a new Vinge novel was worth stabbing me over | 16:01 |
| @kanzure | i think i ran into him once | 16:05 |
| cpopell | I was supposed to do coffee with him at one point | 16:05 |
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| cpopell | @monsterbarbsz Wrong Steve Grand? If you're looking for the gay country singer, that's a different Steve. I've acquired neither talent! | 16:10 |
| FourFire | so http://reasonandmeaning.com/2014/04/17/the-fable-of-the-dragon-tyrant/ | 16:20 |
| FourFire | I like this, it will be a useful position for me to argue against deathists from | 16:20 |
| catern | what a horrible blog post | 16:25 |
| @kanzure | what makes it bad | 16:26 |
| catern | why not just read the actual story instead of horribly summarizing it | 16:26 |
| catern | he doesn't even link it | 16:26 |
| @kanzure | is this about nick's short story? | 16:26 |
| @kanzure | it was pretty short | 16:26 |
| catern | yes | 16:26 |
| catern | FourFire: here http://www.nickbostrom.com/fable/dragon.html | 16:26 |
| FourFire | thanks | 16:27 |
| FourFire | ok, this is odd, I am unsure as to where I was linked that from | 16:32 |
| FourFire | I thought it was http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RationalFic, but I must be word blind or something | 16:32 |
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| FourFire | I wonder how this is going to turn out: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/apr/15/children-swipe-screen-toy-building-blocks-teachers | 16:36 |
| FourFire | I'm no good example of academic achievement myself, but what about when they grow up? | 16:37 |
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| @kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCT_launch_vehicle#Super-heavy_lift_launch_vehicle | 17:24 |
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| streety | it looks like each engine on the Raptor is about the same size as an entire Falcon | 17:44 |
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| @kanzure | https://github.com/bdpurcell/bully "Retrieve WPA/WPA2 passphrase from a WPS enabled acess point" | 18:18 |
| @kanzure | "A readonly subversion clone of this project exists at" | 18:18 |
| @kanzure | i thought it said "The radically subversive code of this project exists at" | 18:19 |
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| QuantumG | RNA interference as a gene knockdown technique | 20:26 |
| yashgaroth | k | 20:29 |
| @kanzure | long boring video about facebook engineering stuff http://nerds.airbnb.com/move-fast-and-break-things/ | 20:29 |
| QuantumG | I have a fork right here.. I could just stab myself in the eye | 20:30 |
| QuantumG | http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1357272509001563 | 20:31 |
| QuantumG | no? | 20:32 |
| QuantumG | fetch http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1357272509001563 | 20:34 |
| QuantumG | (randomly guessing command syntax from reading kanzure's pythong code now) | 20:34 |
| yashgaroth | et voila http://staff.ustc.edu.cn/~shange/publications/10.pdf | 20:34 |
| QuantumG | yeah, no shit.. how's the bot work? | 20:35 |
| yashgaroth | paperbot http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1357272509001563 | 20:35 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ac73db52d5b0e94a56c5260a2f90f739.txt | 20:35 |
| QuantumG | thank you! :) | 20:35 |
| QuantumG | 'cause accepting /msgs would be too polite, obviously | 20:36 |
| @kanzure | couldn't grab that one :( | 20:37 |
| QuantumG | paperbot http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20869867 | 20:38 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016%2Fj.copbio.2010.08.011 | 20:38 |
| @kanzure | wow his solution to static resource management is terrible | 20:39 |
| @kanzure | his solution is to have each server with application code to have a connection to a static resource "database" | 20:39 |
| QuantumG | neat | 20:39 |
| @kanzure | to retrieve versions each time | 20:39 |
| @kanzure | but he already has a cache in front of the application servers | 20:39 |
| xmj | yashgaroth: ping | 20:40 |
| @kanzure | i suppose if you don't want to leak versioning information to your clients then you'd use that solution | 20:40 |
| yashgaroth | pong | 20:40 |
| QuantumG | so anyway, let me stop being rude | 20:40 |
| QuantumG | what are you up to these days kanzure? | 20:40 |
| @kanzure | but if you use different filenames on the frontend for distributing cached assets.. | 20:40 |
| @kanzure | QuantumG: bitcoin things | 20:41 |
| QuantumG | neat.. I sat through a lecture by a guy who claimed to be a crypto anarchist and used words like "agorism" like he knew what they meant.. afterwards, with beer in hand, it became apparent he didn't. | 20:44 |
| QuantumG | protip: never try to explain how the blockchain works in under 10 minutes to an audience that doesn't know what a hashing function is. | 20:45 |
| @kanzure | did he also explain what a hashing function is? | 20:46 |
| QuantumG | he made the blender analogy | 20:46 |
| @kanzure | you should have walked out | 20:46 |
| QuantumG | thankfully, the "technical" discussion was at the end of the talk | 20:47 |
| xmj | yashgaroth: ah never mind | 20:47 |
| xmj | confusing people, early morning :o | 20:47 |
| QuantumG | so, what bitcoin stuff? | 20:49 |
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| @kanzure | oh man, this guy's description of "the push monitor script" is sad | 20:54 |
| @kanzure | their deployment script in 2008 was "ssh into 200 machines, and then wait until the ssh processes hang" | 20:54 |
| @kanzure | i thought that facebook had better ideas by that point | 20:54 |
| justanotheruser | What do you guys think of metacademy.com? | 20:56 |
| justanotheruser | Sorry, metacademy.org | 20:56 |
| QuantumG | a sharing makes you an a-hole? | 20:56 |
| @kanzure | a sharing? | 20:56 |
| justanotheruser | Its got a really cool directed graph showing that the dependencies for every topic you want to learn | 20:57 |
| cpopell | actually this is really cool | 20:58 |
| @kanzure | holy crap his "hypershell" thing. giant php script that concatenates itself into a giant single file, then scp's itself to the servers, then executes itself on each of those servers. | 20:58 |
| @kanzure | in 2008? is this seriously the best engineering talent they could come up with? | 20:58 |
| QuantumG | http://metacademy.org/graphs/concepts/deep_belief_networks that's a nice output | 20:59 |
| @kanzure | "symbolic regression", no results :( | 21:00 |
| cpopell | I want to learn Taguchi based grey relational analysis someday | 21:00 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: it is very new and AI focused right now | 21:00 |
| QuantumG | .. and like most AI stuff, has no idea that half the tools they want are typicalled called "statistics" by the rest of the world | 21:01 |
| justanotheruser | Perhaps they can get some genetic programming soo n | 21:01 |
| QuantumG | http://metacademy.org/search?q=t-test http://metacademy.org/search?q=ANOVA http://metacademy.org/search?q=f-distribution okay, I'm done now | 21:02 |
| QuantumG | typicalled, that's a new word for ya | 21:02 |
| justanotheruser | QuantumG: heh. It launched very recently. | 21:02 |
| justanotheruser | Why does it say q=ANOVA, but display t-test? | 21:03 |
| justanotheruser | Oh, 3 links, not 2 | 21:03 |
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| justanotheruser | I think it is a good website, it just needs to be populated. Definitely a better platform for learning that wikibooks | 21:04 |
| QuantumG | yeah, that first link was nice | 21:05 |
| QuantumG | the DBNs one | 21:05 |
| cpopell | justanotheruser: wikibooks is good for concepts that aren't heavily present elsewhere | 21:08 |
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| fenn | the problem with graphviz type thingies is the text labels are always too small | 21:18 |
| cpopell | oh god | 21:19 |
| cpopell | my old adviser is giving a talk at RPI | 21:19 |
| cpopell | about the 'spiritual dimension of life' | 21:19 |
| fenn | hey at least it's not wrong | 21:20 |
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| QuantumG | I've read two books in the last month about physicists.. and both of them included some bong toking nonsense about spiritual life | 21:21 |
| cpopell | my advisor was a megachristian, but he didn't bring it up much | 21:21 |
| cpopell | http://jsamuel4.tripod.com/faith/index.html | 21:22 |
| ebowden | Oh, hello QuantumG. What do you do? | 21:23 |
| fenn | ebowden: please stop asking that. the most interesting people do all sorts of things | 21:23 |
| QuantumG | "Beyond Uncertainty: Heisenberg, Quantum Physics, and The Bomb" was painful to read.. short version: Heisenberg was first naive (thought science would continue as normal under the NAZIs) then he was opportunistic (everyone smarter than him left Germany) and then went to his death bed thinking anyone still cared what he had to say. | 21:24 |
| @kanzure | yeah, just do what any other sociopath would do: stalk them | 21:24 |
| ebowden | Oh, ok, sorry fenn. | 21:24 |
| fenn | stalking utilizes the same skills needed to learn anything else, so why not | 21:24 |
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| @kanzure | 1h video about webkit rendering stuff http://nerds.airbnb.com/webkit-how-the-web-is-rendered/ | 21:25 |
| QuantumG | ebowden: I'm a software engineer with an interest in molecular biology, spaceflight and random other stuff. | 21:25 |
| fenn | see, i could have said that | 21:25 |
| ebowden | Are neat QuantumG. | 21:25 |
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| ebowden | Ah, neat QuantumG. | 21:26 |
| QuantumG | how 'bout yourself | 21:26 |
| fenn | I'm a software engineer with an interest in molecular biology, spaceflight and random other stuff. | 21:26 |
| ebowden | I recently turned 18m, and I'm still in high school. | 21:26 |
| ebowden | I recently turned 18, and I'm still in high school. | 21:26 |
| QuantumG | fenn, you're a crazy bastard with too much free time | 21:27 |
| ebowden | Want to go into biotech. | 21:27 |
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| fenn | i'm investing sweat equity into my biotch startup | 21:27 |
| @kanzure | "surely we will have had hired an expert at sharding by the time sharding becomes a /real/ problem" - instagram according to https://www.scribd.com/embeds/89025069/content?start_page=1&view_mode=scroll&access_key=key-1pkxvo7h7i8exflue17b | 21:28 |
| QuantumG | are you attracting VC attention? | 21:28 |
| fenn | QuantumG: you know the weird thing is, the more free time you have, the farther behind you get | 21:28 |
| ebowden | QuantumG: My dream is to one day genetically engineer a talking dog and have wacky adventures with it. | 21:29 |
| @kanzure | oh brother | 21:29 |
| @kanzure | talking is overrated | 21:29 |
| @ParahSailin | a glowing dog | 21:29 |
| @kanzure | just go get a dog and go do those wacky adventures now | 21:29 |
| QuantumG | no, he has to wait until after the war | 21:29 |
| fenn | We weep for a bird's cry, but not for a fish's blood. Blessed are those with a voice. If the dolls also had voices, they would have screamed, "I didn't want to become human." | 21:30 |
| ebowden | Kanzure: Talking dog wacky adventures, not regular dog wacky adventures. | 21:31 |
| fenn | ebowden: do you ever worry that you have multiple personality disorder? | 21:32 |
| ebowden | Never. | 21:32 |
| QuantumG | I fear your most "wacky adventures" in biotech will be trying to find a job that doesn't make you want to kill yourself.. every few years if you stay in Australia. | 21:32 |
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| ebowden | What is it about Australia and biotech? | 21:33 |
| justanotheruser | Unless you get another job and do garage biotech yourself | 21:34 |
| fenn | oh btw quantumg i wanted to apologize for how i made fun of bitcoin all those years ago when you introduced me to the idea. had any of us invested a whole $20 we'd be millionaires now | 21:34 |
| QuantumG | fenn: tell me about it | 21:34 |
| fenn | basically i misunderstood that mining would eventually end and thus no longer use up computational resources | 21:34 |
| @kanzure | no | 21:34 |
| fenn | i realize that the block chain continues to function to process transactions | 21:35 |
| QuantumG | Australian government pours money into medical research, expecting it to take off.. it takes off.. Government pulls money from medical research expecting it to keep going, it crashes and burns. | 21:35 |
| @kanzure | that still involves mining | 21:35 |
| ebowden | Ah. | 21:35 |
| justanotheruser | Does xcp put all tx in a bitcoin tx, or does it construct a merkle tree and put them all in one tx | 21:36 |
| fenn | also there's a ratio of work invested to the value of currency in any currency system. the cost of a penny is much more than one cent | 21:36 |
| @kanzure | i believe it's just structured data, justanotheruser | 21:36 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: | 21:36 |
| justanotheruser | It does have a tx for each asset and such right? | 21:37 |
| @kanzure | yes to issue a new asset type you must create and send a new bitcoin transaction | 21:37 |
| @kanzure | http://www.blockscan.com/assetinfo.aspx?q=KANZURE | 21:38 |
| justanotheruser | Oh, thats too bad maybe someone will make it more effecient | 21:38 |
| @kanzure | there are a bunch of other problems with counterparty that i'm more interested in fixing first | 21:38 |
| @kanzure | like the terrible packaging/installation | 21:38 |
| @kanzure | iirc this is also how mastercoin works | 21:38 |
| fenn | kanzure: is xcp your programmer stock share thing? | 21:40 |
| @kanzure | xcp is counterparty | 21:40 |
| @kanzure | at the moment i have been implementing it based on counterparty | 21:40 |
| justanotheruser | Ideally every non bitcoin data store would be in a single transactions opreturn data as the merkle root | 21:41 |
| @kanzure | ralph merkle is a pimp | 21:42 |
| justanotheruser | s/datastore/proof of happening or consensus data | 21:42 |
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| QuantumG | https://cryptocointalk.com/topic/7671-annxcp-counterparty-protocol-client-and-coin-built-on-bitcoin/ | 21:42 |
| @kanzure | fenn: just some weird stuff http://digitalinterface.blogspot.com/2014/03/strangecoin-proposal-for-nonlinear.html | 21:43 |
| justanotheruser | The problem is that every piece of data would have to be produced in a way that all the networks agree that it was costly to include that data | 21:43 |
| @kanzure | why? | 21:44 |
| justanotheruser | Costly for the data creator maker I mean | 21:44 |
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| fenn | uh, can't you just assign whatever cost you want | 21:44 |
| @kanzure | why does it have to be costly to create a bitcoin transaction that gets accepted in the blockchain | 21:44 |
| justanotheruser | Because otherwise it would.open them up to dos | 21:44 |
| fenn | but what about "dos by billionaire" | 21:44 |
| @kanzure | at minimum they are presently constrained by bitcoin transaction fees and inclusion rates | 21:44 |
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| justanotheruser | Yeah, but if you ignore making it costly, you can just flood everyone on the network with data for free | 21:45 |
| fenn | i mean you guarantee your data with some number of cpu cycles/bitcoins and that's what it's worth (as far as trust/verifiability goes at least) | 21:45 |
| @kanzure | justanotheruser: because you can flood the blockchain? | 21:45 |
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| fenn | like the spam blocking proposal based on e-mail stamps.. i forget what it was called | 21:45 |
| @kanzure | hashcash | 21:46 |
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| justanotheruser | kanzure: I could flood the me pool if I didn't need to include a fee | 21:46 |
| justanotheruser | *mempool | 21:46 |
| @kanzure | counterparty doesn't directly monitor the mempool | 21:46 |
| @kanzure | it's actually using getrawtransaction based on historical blocks | 21:46 |
| @kanzure | (getrawtransaction is one of the reasons why it's so stupidly slow at the moment) | 21:46 |
| justanotheruser | But there is a counterparty mempool right? | 21:46 |
| @kanzure | counterparty just asks the bitcoin client for transactions. if there's a reorg, it handles a reorg. | 21:47 |
| fenn | no, not hashcash, this used dollars instead of cpu. you have to attach some certain number of dollars to get over a certain email inbox's threshold, and then they refund the money if they think it was not spam, so the spammers pay for each message | 21:47 |
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| fenn | except it's more like $.001 per email | 21:47 |
| @kanzure | i have heard of many proposals like that but i don't remember seeing any implementations | 21:48 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: oh, I'm talking about if there was a merkle tree for it all. XCP tx are already costly because there is a btc fee | 21:48 |
| fenn | since now bitcoins (invested CPU cycles, essentially) are currency, the difference is moot. thank you albert einstein for proving that matter equals information equals time equals money | 21:49 |
| fenn | if i'm not making any sense please let me know | 21:49 |
| @kanzure | 16:04 < maaku> jaekwon: start with this : http://macs.citadel.edu/rudolphg/csci604/ImpossibilityofConsensus.pdf | 21:49 |
| @kanzure | 16:06 < jaekwon> no, no. that paper has restrictive priors that don't apply to what we can build, namely, that all processes are deterministic. | 21:49 |
| @kanzure | 16:06 < jaekwon> see counter: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=806707 | 21:49 |
| @kanzure | 16:06 < jaekwon> intuitively, if that paper were correct, pow wouldn't work either. | 21:49 |
| @kanzure | 16:09 < maaku> no pow works because the economic restriction provided by the 2nd law : even though you can't know you're in the consensus set, you can put a raw economic cost on the probability of you being tricked | 21:49 |
| @kanzure | 16:09 < maaku> pow *fixes* the problem pointed out by this paper | 21:49 |
| @kanzure | 16:29 < maaku> sipa, jaekwon: my physics-based understanding of bitcoin is that uses work to tie bitcoin consensus to a fundamentally scarce resource: entropy | 21:50 |
| @kanzure | 16:30 < maaku> it is possible to use other physically scarce resource instead, but there is no alternative with the universal scarcity of entropy | 21:50 |
| @kanzure | 16:35 < gmaxwell> An interesting observation is that if we had a true strong publically verifyable captcha— so that a human had to mine— you're still ultimately turning energy into proofs (e.g. instead you could mine by having baby farms where you turn out more people to solve the captchas. :) ) | 21:50 |
| @kanzure | 16:37 < gmaxwell> but bitcoin itself solved an impossible problem by relaxing some constraints, so perhaps there are relaxations or changes that are just as useful but make other things work. | 21:50 |
| @kanzure | 16:41 < maaku> i could be an AI trapped in a simulation with no knowledge of the outside world other than the foundational laws of physics, and from that be able to assert the validity of proof-of-work | 21:50 |
| fenn | yeah pretty much | 21:50 |
| fenn | money is just a shorthand for other stuff that actually exists | 21:51 |
| @kanzure | years ago everyone was telling me that economists don't know anything | 21:51 |
| @kanzure | suddenly with bitcoin all of the economists suddenly know that bitcoin isn't money | 21:52 |
| @kanzure | sounds fishy to me | 21:52 |
| fenn | uh, what? | 21:52 |
| fenn | according to whom? | 21:52 |
| @kanzure | i mean, the economists were telling me economists didn't know anything | 21:52 |
| @kanzure | themselves | 21:52 |
| @kanzure | sorry, important detail | 21:52 |
| fenn | (who(?)) | 21:52 |
| fenn | well if the economist tells you he doesn't know anything, it's probably best to take his word for it | 21:53 |
| fenn | there's some kind of circular logic flaw in there | 21:53 |
| @kanzure | "origins of money" http://szabo.best.vwh.net/shell.html | 21:53 |
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| fenn | yeah i read that. wish i had read that when QuantumG brought up bitcoin | 21:54 |
| fenn | kanzure> "origins of money" http://szabo.best.vwh.net/shell.html | 21:54 |
| @kanzure | is all this regret your way of asking me for bitcoin (or dogecoin?) | 21:55 |
| @kanzure | because i need an address to send to | 21:55 |
| fenn | it also explains a lot of weird human behaviors we don't typically associate with money | 21:55 |
| fenn | hm actually nobody has sent me anything via dogecoin yet | 21:55 |
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| dingo | you can have my dogecoin, i don't plan to use it | 21:57 |
| dingo | i'll probobly just gamble it away | 21:57 |
| @kanzure | didn't you get it by gambling in the first place? | 21:57 |
| @kanzure | i guess that's appropriate then | 21:57 |
| dingo | yup :) | 21:57 |
| @kanzure | fenn: how about these? | 22:00 |
| @kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depository_Trust_%26_Clearing_Corporation | 22:00 |
| @kanzure | http://www.deepcapture.com/the-story-of-deep-capture-part-2/ | 22:00 |
| fenn | okay somebody send me some DOGE! DKTfJwrSdduubLT9aL3hoeiUq9Scj25wvp | 22:01 |
| fenn | god actually the most scarce resource right now is tabs | 22:03 |
| QuantumG | am I the only person who uses "group your tabs" in firefox? | 22:03 |
| QuantumG | now that I think about it, I'm not sure this is even available in vanilla firefox | 22:04 |
| fenn | i did but it didn't work so well beyond a certain number because they decided to re-invent the window manager in a non-resizable non-scrollable root window | 22:04 |
| @kanzure | fenn: txid 3f2ce7491f4f319fc7a5e4c9c688f4f88460fdd4362bf1d59b3240d0fb001f41 | 22:04 |
| QuantumG | yeah | 22:05 |
| fenn | it used to be an add-on but now is in vanilla firefox | 22:05 |
| @kanzure | http://dogechain.info/tx/3f2ce7491f4f319fc7a5e4c9c688f4f88460fdd4362bf1d59b3240d0fb001f41 | 22:05 |
| QuantumG | ahh, cool | 22:05 |
| @ParahSailin | why you need so many tabs, are your eyes multithreaded? | 22:05 |
| @kanzure | because otherwise it takes too long to load the page again | 22:05 |
| @kanzure | and also because i'll literally forget about the page if it's not in my (actual) queue | 22:06 |
| QuantumG | multiple windows for multiple workflows works just fine too | 22:06 |
| fenn | the problem is that tabs appear faster than they disappear, it's not that i "need" them | 22:07 |
| @kanzure | huh i sent much fewer dogecoin than i intended to | 22:07 |
| QuantumG | fenn: so, did you also discover the SpaceX is pretty nifty or what? | 22:07 |
| fenn | QuantumG: well, seeing how they're making regular deliveries to ISS, that's pretty nifty | 22:08 |
| fenn | i don't remember ever trashing spaceX | 22:08 |
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| fenn | kanzure: wait, let me see if this thing actually works first | 22:08 |
| QuantumG | I remember a friend of mine saying SpaceX would have a nice little business with the Falcon 1 but this Falcon 9 thing they're working on is never going to fly. | 22:08 |
| @kanzure | already sent | 22:08 |
| @kanzure | too late | 22:08 |
| QuantumG | I also remember chatting with a SpaceX employee who said vertical landing was impossible with a Falcon 9 sized rocket. | 22:10 |
| fenn | well i guess it worked. dunno why it says "Not yet redeemed" on dogechain.info | 22:10 |
| @kanzure | takes a while for enough blocks to pass for a transaction to be considered 'confirmed' | 22:10 |
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| dingo | haven't loaded by dogecoin wallet in a long while fenn, but when it synchronizes you got 3,336 your way, 3f2ce7491f4f319fc7a5e4c9c688f4f88460fdd4362bf1d59b3240d0fb001f41 | 22:12 |
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| fenn | awesome, i will buy a can of fish | 22:13 |
| fenn | or whatever shibes eat | 22:14 |
| fenn | guys is it insane to go to alaska and live on a sled and eat nothing but salmon | 22:15 |
| dingo | it was educational for me, dogecoin, i might actually do BTC now that i know how to manage a wallet, didn't really care about it until dogecoin made it so trivially worthless to mess around with :-) | 22:15 |
| dingo | you could do worse than salmon-only diet, anyway | 22:15 |
| dingo | i like fishing so i wouldn't mind such a diet if i get to catch em | 22:16 |
| @kanzure | yes it's crazy. | 22:16 |
| @kanzure | and not the normal "oops i accidentally made a billion bucks" crazy | 22:16 |
| dingo | fenn: http://dogechain.info/tx/0385cfc3f52251a66da3f2b64fa6fe8b8f20fd1531cd7361274bfdcb0cdb7a07 | 22:17 |
| fenn | just curious where does that number 2.76889537DOGE come from? | 22:18 |
| @ParahSailin | thats e in base58 | 22:18 |
| dingo | oh i had two wallets | 22:18 |
| dingo | i think that came from a "dog dish" site when i first got the dogecoin wallet -- a place that gives you a few free dogecoins | 22:18 |
| @kanzure | fenn: technology dependency trees are probably wrong | 22:24 |
| QuantumG | what's your opinion of the gene ontology? | 22:24 |
| @kanzure | although it's intuitively true that you can't build a nuclear power plant from a pile of sticks and stones, that may not mean that you can draw a directed graph of technologies that do positively build other things | 22:25 |
| @kanzure | QuantumG: what do you mean? | 22:28 |
| @kanzure | ncbi's weirdo protein classification hierarchy? | 22:28 |
| QuantumG | it's more than that, but yeah | 22:29 |
| fenn | kanzure: is that a challenge? | 22:29 |
| @kanzure | maybe | 22:30 |
| fenn | didn't you just link to natural_nuclear_reactor | 22:30 |
| @kanzure | don't think so | 22:30 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reactor | 22:30 |
| fenn | a nuclear reactor is one of the few things you can build out of a pile of rocks | 22:31 |
| @kanzure | ffff | 22:31 |
| fenn | also i don't really understand what you were trying to say. "because it may not be possible, it's not possible" ? | 22:32 |
| QuantumG | I didn't really know what he was saying either | 22:33 |
| QuantumG | "positively" threw me | 22:33 |
| @kanzure | usually the decision to make a technology dependency tree is based on the fact that you can't just cram two pieces of matter together to get a particular technology | 22:33 |
| @kanzure | so instead people sit there and think, well, then we can make up a tree or graph of technologies that are necessary to build other things | 22:34 |
| @kanzure | based on the original fact, not based on additional understanding | 22:34 |
| fenn | what original fact? | 22:34 |
| @kanzure | "you can't just cram two pieces of matter together to get a particular technology" | 22:34 |
| QuantumG | just invent the international trading port and you're done | 22:35 |
| @kanzure | QuantumG: "it's somebody else's problem"? | 22:35 |
| QuantumG | being facetious, of course | 22:35 |
| fenn | let me state two facts. 1) all technology that currently exists was made from what at one point was sticks and stones and puppy dog tails. 2) intermediate steps between "nature" and "product" also count as something | 22:36 |
| fenn | whether you slice it as a process or a tree of products is somewhat arbitrary | 22:37 |
| @kanzure | uh sure, all the material in the planet's crust counts as sticks and puppy dog tails | 22:37 |
| fenn | (i actually forgot what fact #2 was supposed to be) | 22:37 |
| @kanzure | there are many possible routes for the construction of a certain artifact | 22:38 |
| @ParahSailin | the GVCS has a pretty cool tech tree graphic | 22:38 |
| @kanzure | i wouldn't trust anything that GVCS produces | 22:38 |
| @kanzure | extremely sloppy thinking everywhere | 22:38 |
| @kanzure | but also i'd like to see it | 22:38 |
| QuantumG | but at least they made that compressed earth brick machine | 22:38 |
| @kanzure | ah yes their legacy.. | 22:39 |
| QuantumG | yup, took 'em long enough, but they got - somewhere | 22:39 |
| fenn | i made some compressed earth bricks, it's actually much more impressive of a material than you'd expect | 22:39 |
| QuantumG | no sure how useful that somewhere is | 22:39 |
| fenn | basically like concrete once it cures | 22:39 |
| QuantumG | yup, petrol + dirt = bricks, who knew? | 22:40 |
| fenn | the persians | 22:40 |
| QuantumG | they knew about the petrol? | 22:41 |
| fenn | what's interesting about GVCS is they are one of the few hackerspaces with a specific mission | 22:41 |
| QuantumG | or did they use elephants or something? | 22:41 |
| fenn | factor e farm i mean | 22:41 |
| @kanzure | has anyone actually drawn a valid technology tree of any size | 22:42 |
| @ParahSailin | sid meier did | 22:42 |
| @ParahSailin | you gotta do ceremonial burial first | 22:42 |
| @kanzure | ugh | 22:42 |
| fenn | what do you mean valid? freitas wrote a whole nasa technical report, but it's mostly fantasy sketches | 22:42 |
| @kanzure | iirc, that did not include an actual technology tree | 22:42 |
| QuantumG | there's those books on how to make your own manual machine shop tools | 22:43 |
| @kanzure | those also don't have trees | 22:43 |
| @kanzure | wah | 22:43 |
| QuantumG | .. where he uses his home built lathe to make his home built whatever | 22:43 |
| fenn | i ought to know the answer to this question but i don't know | 22:43 |
| @kanzure | QuantumG: you're thinking of fenn | 22:43 |
| QuantumG | I thought it had a tree in the start.. or maybe it was the end.. | 22:43 |
| fenn | QuantumG: i built the foundry and the lathe and then some | 22:43 |
| fenn | there's no graphical diagram if that's what he means | 22:44 |
| QuantumG | oh, am I? | 22:44 |
| QuantumG | could be. | 22:44 |
| fenn | also the order you build things is suboptimal | 22:44 |
| fenn | should start with the gas fired furnace, then make crucibles, then build a shaper, then do the milling machine (which is a lathe too) and then you're done | 22:45 |
| fenn | i guess you do the gas engines after that | 22:45 |
| @ParahSailin | well if you do bronze working and currency first, you can get trade and use caravans to accelerate research to republic | 22:45 |
| @kanzure | the game's model is most likely wrong | 22:46 |
| fenn | nah lets just warp in a mothership in exchange for magic crystals | 22:46 |
| @kanzure | http://www.civfanatics.com/gallery/files/1/civ4techtree92005vanilla_original.jpg | 22:46 |
| @kanzure | pottery leads to writing. what the fucking shit. | 22:46 |
| @ParahSailin | nah, alphabet leads to writing | 22:46 |
| @kanzure | look at the chart man | 22:46 |
| @ParahSailin | what is this, civ4 shit | 22:47 |
| @kanzure | "animal husbandry" watching animals do it "them" style leads to writing | 22:47 |
| fenn | "meditation" is a technology? | 22:47 |
| @kanzure | :\ | 22:47 |
| @ParahSailin | i get that they had to switch things up to sell more games, but the civ2/freeciv tech tree is canon | 22:47 |
| @kanzure | http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100524174238/freeciv/images/a/a0/Technology.gif | 22:48 |
| fenn | i mean, i dunno, maybe it is. | 22:48 |
| QuantumG | they gotta fit the stupid spiritual shit in somewhere otherwise they can't justify the various forms of brutality ascribed to government, which is what the author thinks "civilization" is about. | 22:48 |
| @kanzure | "philosophy -> medicine" this is just BS abstract crap | 22:48 |
| @kanzure | why is everyone convinced that tech trees are correct or useful | 22:49 |
| fenn | technology is similar to memes | 22:49 |
| fenn | kanzure those game trees probably look nothing like real tech trees | 22:49 |
| fenn | i mean steel production would point everywhere | 22:50 |
| fenn | i can't even find steel on here | 22:50 |
| @ParahSailin | philosophy gets you a free tech if you get it first | 22:50 |
| @ParahSailin | fenn: iron working, yo, just need warrior code and bronze working and you're good to build legions | 22:51 |
| fenn | okay but iron isn't steel | 22:51 |
| QuantumG | I thought Foundry was in there | 22:52 |
| @ParahSailin | ok if you want steel, you need industrialization and electricity | 22:52 |
| fenn | oh it's in the center near the top half, | 22:52 |
| @kanzure | "well obviously instead of a technology tree what we really need is to draw a technology hexagon, or a technology dymaxion diagram" | 22:52 |
| fenn | next to machine tools | 22:52 |
| fenn | kanzure: there's a human cognitive bias towards discrete units, and "having" them or "not having" them | 22:53 |
| fenn | see that meta academy site for example | 22:53 |
| fenn | there's nothing inherent about the math behind "deep belief networks" to make it "a thing" | 22:54 |
| fenn | i'm afraid i'm drifting into philosophy here, but the reason people want tech trees is to express how they think about the world | 22:54 |
| fenn | same thing with code, there's nothing specific about the code in a .deb or a .apk that makes it one thing or another, except that's what we call it | 22:55 |
| fenn | what is a gene? what replicates? | 22:55 |
| ebowden | Oh, ParahSailin: What do you think of genetically engineering yourself a sapient talking dog? | 22:56 |
| @kanzure | none of this is very convincing, could you try to find me a real technology tree that is accurate and not crap | 22:56 |
| justanotheruser | Invent strong AI then use a dogs barks as randomness for its statements | 22:57 |
| justanotheruser | Probably is easier | 22:57 |
| fenn | kanzure: what about chemcial reaction networks, that's kinda similar and we know they correspond to reality | 22:58 |
| ebowden | But it's much more fun to have wacky adventures with a talking dog? | 22:58 |
| ebowden | But it's much more fun to have wacky adventures with a talking dog. | 22:58 |
| QuantumG | ebowden: remember to do literature review, someone may have already done it | 22:59 |
| @kanzure | people have verified those reaction mechanisms to an embarrassingly strong degree | 22:59 |
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| @kanzure | why isn't there a similar symbol-based machining language like that | 22:59 |
| @kanzure | or mechanical building stuff language similar to "well clearly you just move the calcium atom around" | 22:59 |
| fenn | it's amazing they're still discovering new chemical reactions, hundreds of years later | 22:59 |
| ebowden | QuantumG: If someone had done it, popsci would have eaten it up by now. | 23:00 |
| justanotheruser | So if I wanted to make a graph of all the chemicals and what they can make (basic chemicals on the top directing into other chemicals as they react), what website(s) would I scrape? | 23:00 |
| fenn | new reaction mechanisms* | 23:00 |
| @kanzure | well, part of that discovery is because the reaction mechanism databases are propriretary | 23:00 |
| @kanzure | *proprietary | 23:00 |
| @kanzure | so how would you really know if it's new or not etc | 23:00 |
| QuantumG | ebowden: nay, it's probably in the literature under developmental abnormalities | 23:00 |
| @kanzure | justanotheruser: pubchem | 23:00 |
| fenn | because it's reported in the organic chemistry journals specifically devoted to keeping track of reaction mechanisms | 23:00 |
| @kanzure | justanotheruser: also the proprietary databases like from uh, ACS | 23:00 |
| @kanzure | american chemical society, i mean | 23:01 |
| justanotheruser | Shhhh. No stealing information kanzure | 23:01 |
| QuantumG | organic chemistry is messy anyway | 23:01 |
| fenn | there are open databases, according to my father the computational chemist | 23:01 |
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| justanotheruser | But thanks, I'll check that out | 23:01 |
| QuantumG | it's not as great as you think it is | 23:01 |
| * fenn is skeptical | 23:01 | |
| @kanzure | fenn: well, get the links from him | 23:01 |
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| fenn | there's some papers by grzybowski that i haven't looked at | 23:01 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/grzybowski/ | 23:03 |
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| fenn | 2006 figure 1b is what i'd expect a manufacturing tree to look like | 23:05 |
| fenn | chemistry is a technology so that tree literally is a tech tree | 23:05 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: where is the synthesis on this http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=71315430&loc=ec_rcs ? | 23:07 |
| ebowden | QuantumG: Very unlikely that there is any literature on talking dogs. | 23:07 |
| @kanzure | i dunno if i'd classify "my knowledge of the fact that if i react these two chemicals together that i'd get this product" as a technology, although chemistry lab equipment and factory equipment would probably qualify to me as technology | 23:07 |
| QuantumG | ebowden: I bet there's some literature on dog shaped babies | 23:07 |
| fenn | ebowden: you know shaggy was probably just hallucinating from the drugs, right? | 23:07 |
| ebowden | Yes, no-one but him communicated by speech with scooby-doo. | 23:07 |
| @kanzure | justanotheruser: dunno, often you have to get one of those proprietary retrosynthetic analysis databases to get the synthetic routes for synthesizing whatever compound | 23:08 |
| QuantumG | scooby-doo could talk? | 23:08 |
| fenn | aroo whoo? | 23:08 |
| QuantumG | I mean, ya know, he could grunt convincingly, but so can my cat. | 23:08 |
| ebowden | In shaggy's head he could. | 23:08 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: any sources I can republish from? | 23:08 |
| @kanzure | scooby doo "talked" through the controversial method of assisted speech | 23:08 |
| ebowden | Probably where it ended. | 23:08 |
| @kanzure | justanotheruser: probably not.. fenn claims there's an open/non-proprietary database somewhere. | 23:08 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: link pls | 23:09 |
| ebowden | Or shaggy was just schizophrenic or high. | 23:09 |
| fenn | kanzure: you get a different sense for what technology is once you've made stuff from scratch | 23:09 |
| fenn | it's all just "stuff" and you move it around, and move it back and forth with various forces | 23:09 |
| @kanzure | fenn, there are many ways to build the same thing | 23:09 |
| fenn | whether it's sloshing chemicals in a vat, or sloshing molten liquid in a foundry, doesn't seem to important of a distinction anymore | 23:10 |
| justanotheruser | ebowden: why do you think he was always hungry | 23:10 |
| ebowden | LOL | 23:10 |
| QuantumG | anyway, there's plenty of literature on quadrupedal human developmental anomaly. Get to it Dr Krieger. | 23:10 |
| @kanzure | scooby doo and the mystery crew were sponsored by the drug enforcement agency and robocop | 23:10 |
| fenn | D.A.R.E. to watch cartoons | 23:11 |
| @kanzure | there was this hilarious video of a government anti-drug campaign that employed robocop | 23:11 |
| fenn | justanotheruser: honestly thinking about this stuff makes me exhausted | 23:11 |
| @kanzure | (robocop is obviously anti-anti-drugs) | 23:12 |
| QuantumG | I'm sure he warned the kids to stay out of trouble | 23:12 |
| @kanzure | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhRQncgzTpA | 23:12 |
| @kanzure | .title | 23:12 |
| yoleaux | Robocop 2 Peter Weller Boys & Girls Club Anti-Drug PSA (1990) | 23:12 |
| fenn | justanotheruser: you should probably look at the papers by grzybowski though | 23:12 |
| @kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNnAPcX9vkE | 23:12 |
| yoleaux | Robocop Anti-Drug Campaign PSA in the Philippines | 23:12 |
| @kanzure | too bad nobody got the message from the movies | 23:13 |
| fenn | justanotheruser: also, the raw data for chemical reaction networks is not publically available, because it could be used to make nerve gas or something | 23:13 |
| * fenn shrugs | 23:13 | |
| @kanzure | hah, no it's not publicly available for that reason | 23:13 |
| @kanzure | it's not publicly available because it's owned by companies that sell that information | 23:13 |
| @kanzure | nerve gas is just a convenient reason to protect their business model | 23:14 |
| @kanzure | but i haven't seen the nerve gas argument employed for why chemical data shouldn't be published in public | 23:14 |
| justanotheruser | Fenn | 23:14 |
| fenn | my understanding was that the commercial products are nowhere near complete | 23:14 |
| @kanzure | "DRUG DEMAND REDUCTION PROGRAM" | 23:14 |
| fenn | apparently it's really easy to make nerve gas from household chemicals if you know how | 23:15 |
| QuantumG | if one were so inclined | 23:15 |
| fenn | (and no i'm not talking about ammonia and bleach) | 23:15 |
| ebowden | Fenn: Oh? | 23:15 |
| @kanzure | is endless waltz worth watching? | 23:15 |
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| fenn | kanzure: no | 23:16 |
| @kanzure | thanks | 23:16 |
| fenn | it's all whiny gay politics | 23:16 |
| xmj | lol | 23:16 |
| fenn | and philosophizing on the nature of war | 23:16 |
| fenn | or something | 23:16 |
| fenn | honestly i wish gundam spent more time on the space colonies and "what the hell is a space colony anyway" before immediately blowing everything up | 23:17 |
| @kanzure | hasbro could sell more toys if they pimped it i guess | 23:18 |
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| ebowden | Fenn; What's this about homemade nerve gas? :D | 23:18 |
| fenn | ebowden: forget about it | 23:19 |
| fenn | even if i knew, i wouldn't tell you | 23:19 |
| ebowden | Oh well, it's not important. | 23:20 |
| QuantumG | you should tell him, then he'll immediately lose interest | 23:20 |
| fenn | ebowden: you bury an egg in clay for 100 years, then dig it up. it's totally nerve gas dude | 23:20 |
| ebowden | LOL | 23:21 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandelbrot_set how many circles are there in this picture | 23:22 |
| @kanzure | i think you mean to ask "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" | 23:22 |
| fenn | that's disgusting | 23:23 |
| ebowden | LOL | 23:23 |
| @kanzure | well at least the gundam people do orchestra stuff every once in a while https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA1pEXaNmBg | 23:25 |
| fenn | ebowden: instead of trying to genetically engineer a dog to talk, why not just put electrodes in its brain that do machine learning and generate speech and feedback that the dog can understand? | 23:25 |
| @kanzure | s/hasbro/bandai | 23:25 |
| QuantumG | .. or just do what I said. | 23:25 |
| -!- catern [~catern@catern.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 23:25 | |
| ebowden | Fenn: Want to give dogs greater powers of cognition as well, so that they can better evade the authorities when I send them to poo on selected people's lawns. | 23:26 |
| @kanzure | running after pooing does not require greater "powers of cognition" | 23:27 |
| @kanzure | just go buy a clicker | 23:27 |
| fenn | QuantumG: but dogs have a really good sense of smell | 23:27 |
| -!- Adifex is now known as ZombieAdifex | 23:27 | |
| QuantumG | as if that's hard to selectively breed for. | 23:27 |
| fenn | it'd take a long time to get to 100 generations | 23:28 |
| fenn | 150 years at least | 23:28 |
| QuantumG | you'd take a modern approach | 23:28 |
| fenn | er, 1500 years | 23:28 |
| fenn | i dont understand | 23:28 |
| QuantumG | it's probably mostly psychosomatic anyway. | 23:29 |
| @kanzure | depends on what you mean by talking too | 23:29 |
| @kanzure | you can definitely get dogs to tell you things | 23:29 |
| fenn | "but can we ever truly know anything" | 23:30 |
| @kanzure | relevant: | 23:30 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/orca-2014/ken-ramirez/ | 23:30 |
| @kanzure | this individual apparently trains large groups of animals at zoos | 23:30 |
| @kanzure | like 15-25 seals at a time | 23:30 |
| @kanzure | or 20 penguins etc | 23:30 |
| QuantumG | he wants a human in dog form.. it's pretty obvious that it's easier to make a fur covered quadrupedal human than crack the secret of human level intelligence | 23:31 |
| @kanzure | http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-Can-Sign-Too-Breakthrough/dp/1587613530 | 23:31 |
| fenn | ebowden: hey why haven't you talked to sheena yet, the only other dog person in the channel afaik | 23:31 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 23:32 |
| -!- Qfwfq [~Qfwfq@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:32 | |
| @kanzure | "pidgin is broken" is her excuse at the moment | 23:32 |
| ebowden | Is Sheena here? | 23:32 |
| @kanzure | no | 23:32 |
| @kanzure | she is here in spirit | 23:32 |
| @kanzure | by which i mean no | 23:32 |
| * fenn points at the empty metaphor | 23:32 | |
| ebowden | Oh well. | 23:32 |
| @ParahSailin | seals are basically aquatic dogs | 23:32 |
| fenn | ... the empty metaphor where sheena would have been | 23:33 |
| fenn | oh man it's so hard to know if anyone gets my weird humor | 23:33 |
| ebowden | I do, sort of. | 23:33 |
| ebowden | It's a bit out of the box to explain to people. | 23:34 |
| QuantumG | ParahSailin: if you're saying we need to genetically engineer humans to look like seals and release them into the wild, I agree. | 23:35 |
| fenn | ramirez brings up fairness as an evolved trait; i think that it's where our instincts for money began | 23:35 |
| @kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9onvwEylYTM&t=1m10s | 23:35 |
| yoleaux | Snow Penguin Program at Ski Dubai | 23:35 |
| @kanzure | penguin training | 23:35 |
| @kanzure | "and plus it's all fueled by trillions of dollars of burning oil! hooray!" | 23:35 |
| fenn | ramirez' advice is good for training humans too | 23:38 |
| xmj | jrayhawk: that nutrition advice is interesting | 23:39 |
| xmj | jrayhawk: do you know why he recommends not eating beans? | 23:39 |
| fenn | because pythagoras said so | 23:40 |
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| QuantumG | how to lose (or gain) weight: measure your weight at least twice a day, keep a log, change what/when/how much you eat so that the numbers go down. | 23:42 |
| xmj | how to lose weight in one step: burn more calories than you take in. done. | 23:43 |
| fenn | how to lose weight: cut off your head | 23:43 |
| QuantumG | really, and how do measure that xmj? | 23:43 |
| fenn | i thought the "take cold showers especially around the back of the neck area" was interesting; would like to see more data on that | 23:44 |
| fenn | brown adipose tissue stimulation | 23:44 |
| QuantumG | yeah, you could do anything you like as the action step, so long as you're measuring the variable you want to change. | 23:45 |
| fenn | weight is a stupid variable to want to change, it's only used because it's easy to measure and compare | 23:45 |
| QuantumG | 99% of people I've met who have failed to lose weight have not being measuring their weight. | 23:45 |
| QuantumG | about half of the failed body builders I've met haven't been measuring their weight or any other indications of their muscle mass either. | 23:46 |
| QuantumG | the majority just thought it'd take less time than it does.. | 23:47 |
| fenn | i like the idea of strength training, using maximum lift as your variable | 23:47 |
| xmj | damn you for reminding me how much i've been slacking off the last three months. | 23:48 |
| QuantumG | which is fine, if you're recording the data and normalizing for time of day, caloric intake, sleep.. | 23:48 |
| xmj | but yes. maximum lift in percentage of bodyweight is a great variable. | 23:48 |
| fenn | kinda want to make a low mass strength training system | 23:49 |
| xmj | fenn: "ottermode" | 23:49 |
| fenn | seatbelt load limiters or something | 23:49 |
| fenn | er, "low mass" refers to the mass of the exercise equipment | 23:50 |
| QuantumG | of course, then there's the people who burst into tears whenever they get on a scale and go eat to make themselves feel better.. the scientific method presupposes a rationality which may not be sufficiently common. | 23:50 |
| fenn | the scientific method doesn't require rationality, only that you follow the scientific method | 23:50 |
| fenn | it produces rationality as a byproduct | 23:51 |
| QuantumG | fair enough, my point is that recommending a scientific approach to weight loss is kinda pointless on most people, as they're incapable of being rational about their own body. | 23:52 |
| fenn | has anyone done experiments with pets and nootropics? | 23:52 |
| fenn | QuantumG: starvation produces huge negative emotional responses in humans, i see it everywhere, really disappointing that so many people "diet" | 23:53 |
| fenn | starve themselves | 23:53 |
| fenn | then it's like "why am I suicidal" EAT SOMETHING | 23:53 |
| QuantumG | if it works for you, I say go for it | 23:54 |
| QuantumG | if it doesn't, don't | 23:54 |
| QuantumG | how can you tell? *measure* | 23:54 |
| fenn | how do you measure tissue vitamin C activity | 23:55 |
| fenn | i know how to measure intracellular magnesium, but most people don't have a blood NMR machine just lying around | 23:56 |
| QuantumG | why would I want to? | 23:56 |
| fenn | because it's required for life? | 23:56 |
| QuantumG | .. and? | 23:56 |
| fenn | any humans are mutants that don't get enough vitamin C to fix the complications of the mutation? | 23:56 |
| fenn | there are a lot of possible interventions, it takes a long time to go through them all individually and give each one a fair shake | 23:57 |
| fenn | so where do you start? | 23:57 |
| fenn | it's not an endless recursive "what is the purpose of existence" type question | 23:58 |
| fenn | we know roughly which systems contribute to, say, social anxiety, on a biochemical level, and possible interventions, but which ones are best suited to the individual can only be determined by gathering data. actually DOING the intervention would take longer than gathering other sorts of indicator data | 23:59 |
| --- Log closed Mon Apr 21 00:00:46 2014 | ||
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