| --- Log opened Mon Apr 21 00:00:46 2014 | ||
| fenn | there's no rational reason to want to lose weight, it's just a proxy for self image and social confidence | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| fenn | (yes i am aware of the link between obesity and metabolic syndrome) | 00:01 |
| QuantumG | so, you're saying that attempting to achieve greater "social confidence" is irrational? How do you figure? | 00:03 |
| -!- ZombieAdifex is now known as Adifex | 00:03 | |
| fenn | possible interventions to treat social anxiety: magnesium supplementation, GABAergic drugs, improved body image (weight loss), role playing, etc. | 00:04 |
| QuantumG | I think the fat kid who loses weight so the girls will give him the time of day is being quite rational. | 00:04 |
| fenn | social confidence and body type are correlated in american culture, but it doesn't necessarily have to be this way | 00:05 |
| fenn | i do think social confidence is important for humans | 00:05 |
| QuantumG | it doesn't matter if you think it has to be this way, it is this way | 00:06 |
| fenn | there are other cultures with other preferred body types: maasai, polynesian | 00:06 |
| QuantumG | accepting reality and focusing on the things you can change over the things you cant is what we typically call rational behavior | 00:07 |
| QuantumG | it's a shame that defeatist and rational are so similar sometimes | 00:07 |
| fenn | there are also socially successful, happy, confident, obese americans | 00:07 |
| fenn | maybe the nuance isn't quite getting across and i should just give up | 00:08 |
| QuantumG | sure, and there's also thin social pariahs | 00:08 |
| fenn | i'm really frustrated that "reality" is seen as "things that hurt" or "things you can't change" | 00:09 |
| QuantumG | I'm not saying that getting thin will make you happy.. you seemed to be saying that | 00:09 |
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| QuantumG | I don't really give a shit why people want to be thin. | 00:09 |
| QuantumG | I do give a shit that 99% of the people I talk to about it are honestly surprised that I think measuring your weight is an essential part of achieving that goal. | 00:10 |
| QuantumG | I'd give the same advice to someone who wanted to be a hotdog eating champion: measure how fast you can eat hotdogs, son. | 00:11 |
| fenn | i read "an engineer's guide to weight loss" (i think?) and it was basically what you are saying. keep track of variables, do what works, don't do what doesn't work. | 00:11 |
| fenn | but knowing what I do about biology, I think there is more to it than just not eating, and suffering, and spending lots of willpower on your stupid diet. | 00:12 |
| QuantumG | yeah, unfortunately that booklet is way too long.. it becomes a treatise on statistical methods pretty quickly. | 00:12 |
| fenn | nah he was only measuring a few things, like calories and body mass and number of servings or something | 00:13 |
| fenn | it's surprising there's no magic weight loss pill | 00:15 |
| fenn | i don't really understand why there isn't either: 1) a pill that causes your fat cells to explode and empty into the bloodstream, or 2) amplify the satiety signal | 00:16 |
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| QuantumG | I can think of a few that would do the job.. so long as "magic" doesn't include "painless" or does include "conscious" :) | 00:16 |
| fenn | eh? anesthesia? | 00:17 |
| QuantumG | yeah, people in comas lose weight like crazy. Just make sure you've got someone to rotate you. | 00:17 |
| fenn | i didn't know that | 00:17 |
| fenn | is it because they are on a controlled diet? | 00:18 |
| QuantumG | well, they IV feed them and they can't complain | 00:18 |
| fenn | or do they burn a lot of calories? | 00:18 |
| QuantumG | controlled "diet", yeah | 00:18 |
| QuantumG | kinda surprised it isn't a celebrity fad yet | 00:19 |
| fenn | sorta like heroin detox | 00:19 |
| QuantumG | must be that damn "there's no safe coma" crowd | 00:20 |
| fenn | buncha whiners | 00:20 |
| fenn | being back phen-phen! | 00:20 |
| fenn | bring* | 00:20 |
| fenn | my goal for 2014: to elevate the nation's cAMP levels | 00:21 |
| ebowden | How would you do that? :D | 00:22 |
| fenn | dump truckloads of stimulants in the water supply | 00:22 |
| ebowden | Mass distribution of a cocaine? | 00:23 |
| fenn | that works too | 00:23 |
| ebowden | Oh. | 00:23 |
| fenn | cocaine has poor pharmacokinetics though | 00:23 |
| ebowden | Sorry, posted before your reply. | 00:23 |
| ebowden | Yeah, it has to be snorted. | 00:23 |
| fenn | you know those 5-hour energy things? it's just caffeine and b vitamins and cherry flavor | 00:24 |
| fenn | caffeine works by raising cAMP and inhibiting the adenosine (sleepiness) receptor | 00:24 |
| ebowden | Why not add experimental drugs? | 00:24 |
| fenn | oh, like "bath salts"? | 00:24 |
| ebowden | :D | 00:25 |
| ebowden | No. | 00:25 |
| QuantumG | what state are you in ebowden? | 00:25 |
| ebowden | I live in Tasmania, Australia. | 00:25 |
| QuantumG | oh, I'm so sorry | 00:25 |
| fenn | they are mostly cathinones, which are similar to amphetamines, and also have fast pharmacokinetics which makes them more addictive and also less useful from the standpoint of productivity/weight loss | 00:25 |
| ebowden | What for? | 00:25 |
| ebowden | For me living in inbred land? :D | 00:26 |
| QuantumG | apples or something | 00:26 |
| QuantumG | being that close to NZ? | 00:26 |
| QuantumG | etc | 00:26 |
| ebowden | It was called 'the apple isle' a while ago. | 00:26 |
| ebowden | What's wrong with NZ? | 00:27 |
| QuantumG | nothing.. 'cept it's full of New Zealanders.. kinda like France. | 00:29 |
| QuantumG | but, ya know, French people | 00:29 |
| ebowden | So, QuantumG, what do you think of selling potent nootropics at exam time? :d | 00:30 |
| ebowden | :D | 00:30 |
| fenn | here's one i haven't heard of yet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolipram | 00:30 |
| QuantumG | I support commerce. | 00:31 |
| cpopell | ebowden: 'potent' like what? | 00:32 |
| QuantumG | Always charge more when there's high demand.. there's nothing worse than a supply shortage. | 00:32 |
| ebowden | ISRIB. | 00:32 |
| ebowden | No official human testing yet. :D | 00:32 |
| QuantumG | of course, learning drugs always remind me of Arnold Rimmer. | 00:32 |
| ebowden | YES! | 00:32 |
| ebowden | I love that part. | 00:33 |
| fenn | there are so many nootropics already, taking untested ones is hardly justified | 00:34 |
| QuantumG | Have you ever had an exam that you walked out of thinking "well, that's a zero" but when you got it back you got like 85%? | 00:34 |
| QuantumG | (I have.) | 00:35 |
| ebowden | Ah, yes. | 00:36 |
| ebowden | Oh, fenn, group of people are testing ISRIB on themselves soon, over at longecity. | 00:38 |
| * fenn rolls his eyes | 00:40 | |
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| fenn | do they also drink out of water bottles, run on treadmills, and line their room with crumpled newspaper and cedar chips? | 00:41 |
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| ebowden | Honestly, I really want to see what happens. | 00:42 |
| fenn | even if ISRIB actually works and improves learning rate by 1000%, what if it also increases your risk of developing PTSD by 1000%? | 00:42 |
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| ebowden | Not an issue if you want to make MONEH. | 00:43 |
| fenn | i'm sorry, what? | 00:43 |
| ebowden | Kidding, it is. | 00:43 |
| fenn | there are far easier ways to make money unethically | 00:43 |
| ebowden | Pesky lawsuits and angry parents. | 00:43 |
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| ebowden | But yes, mainly, I'm just curious. It's among the most potent enhancement of LTP we've seen yet, from what I've heard. | 00:46 |
| ebowden | I'd like to see them run randomised, controlled, double blind trials. | 00:46 |
| ebowden | Not that's at all realistic. | 00:47 |
| fenn | i'd like to see some erowid subjective reports | 00:47 |
| AshleyWaffle | what is isrib | 00:47 |
| ebowden | If they're going to pump themselves with experimental drugs, it would be nice to see them get good data out of it. | 00:48 |
| cpopell | ebowden : have you played with Lion's Mane? | 00:48 |
| ebowden | AshleyWaffle: Integrated Stress Response Inhibitor, increased score on measures of LTP by 300%. | 00:49 |
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| ebowden | cpopell: No, sorry. | 00:49 |
| fenn | ISRIB, (an acronym for Integrated Stress Response inhibitor), is an experimental drug which reverses the effects of eIF2α phosphorylation .. eIF2α phosphorylation is known to be involved in memory formation, ... enhancement of spatial and fear-associated learning in standard water maze and conditioned environment tests | 00:49 |
| AshleyWaffle | ebowden: sorry, whats LTP? | 00:49 |
| ebowden | Long Term Potentiation. | 00:49 |
| AshleyWaffle | so aka ptsd drug lol | 00:50 |
| cpopell | ebowden: it promotes NGF | 00:50 |
| cpopell | http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18758067 | 00:50 |
| AshleyWaffle | sounds like youd get 100 phobias | 00:50 |
| AshleyWaffle | how does testing look so far | 00:50 |
| AshleyWaffle | any weird side effects? | 00:50 |
| ebowden | It also assists in the reversal of fear conditioning, AshleyWaffle. | 00:50 |
| fenn | cpopell: having tried lion's mane, let me caution you, having new brain cells means you develop new interests and new personality factors | 00:51 |
| AshleyWaffle | ah | 00:51 |
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| ebowden | Fenn, what else does it do? | 00:51 |
| AshleyWaffle | so how does testing look so far | 00:51 |
| fenn | what, like that isn't enough? | 00:51 |
| cpopell | fenn: I'd really need a double blind on Lion's Mane | 00:51 |
| cpopell | new interests and new personality factors are also consequences of living | 00:51 |
| AshleyWaffle | so isrib is the first "real" nootropic? | 00:52 |
| AshleyWaffle | ie super effective | 00:52 |
| ebowden | Well, I'd like to see what else this neurogenesis does. | 00:52 |
| AshleyWaffle | like NZT | 00:52 |
| ebowden | No. | 00:52 |
| ebowden | Not like NZT. | 00:52 |
| AshleyWaffle | 300% sounds big | 00:52 |
| AshleyWaffle | 3x faster learning? | 00:52 |
| ebowden | Sort of, yes. | 00:52 |
| * fenn sighs | 00:52 | |
| AshleyWaffle | thats OP, sounds good to me | 00:52 |
| ebowden | It's not going to automatically make you smart. | 00:53 |
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| cpopell | fear and spatial learning, it seems. | 00:53 |
| AshleyWaffle | hmm spatial | 00:53 |
| AshleyWaffle | cpopell: do first person shooters count | 00:53 |
| cpopell | who knows | 00:53 |
| fenn | cpopell: also it takes a couple weeks before anything happens | 00:53 |
| AshleyWaffle | well are they spatial | 00:53 |
| cpopell | I'm not on anything in particular right now | 00:53 |
| ebowden | AshleyWaffle: By sort of, I mean, we don't know for sure if it will have the same effect on humans. | 00:54 |
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| AshleyWaffle | havent people been tinkering around on longecity? | 00:54 |
| fenn | cpopell: are you happy with who you are as a person? yes -> don't take lion's mane; no -> do take lion's mane | 00:54 |
| AshleyWaffle | http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/68589-isrib-group-buy-new/page-2 | 00:54 |
| fenn | is all i'm trying to say | 00:54 |
| cpopell | fenn: Again, the problem is I need to see more data, heh | 00:54 |
| cpopell | fenn: I didn't see reports on erowid | 00:54 |
| fenn | me either | 00:55 |
| fenn | i found it at the farmer's market | 00:55 |
| ebowden | Yeah, people are having trouble getting it to pass the GI tract. | 00:55 |
| fenn | then i read about BDNF on wikipedia | 00:55 |
| ebowden | Fenn, we must identify ALL THE CHEMICAlS. | 00:59 |
| ebowden | (In lions mane.) | 00:59 |
| ebowden | Just read a bit about them. | 01:00 |
| fenn | hm. i might have experienced this. "sensory nerves induced by NGF may contribute to development of itch, and that NGF produced at the affected site may provide abnormal skin sensitivity" | 01:00 |
| ebowden | (By ALL THE CHEMICALS, I mean all the active compounds.) | 01:00 |
| fenn | "itch" is the wrong word | 01:01 |
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| ebowden | Oh? | 01:02 |
| fenn | it's more like the feeling you get while a papercut is happening, or when someone scratches their fingers on a chalkboard, or using a number 2 pencil on rough paper without enough sleep | 01:03 |
| fenn | i was reading all about "sensory processing disorder" | 01:03 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 01:03 |
| fenn | i cut back on b vitamins and it went away (may or may not be a cause and effect relationship) | 01:04 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 01:04 |
| fenn | i wasn't taking enough b vitamins to cause peripheral neuropathy | 01:05 |
| ebowden | Could it be a synergy? | 01:05 |
| fenn | growing nerves reacted to low doses the way sessile nerves react to high doses? sure | 01:06 |
| fenn | (senescent?) | 01:07 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 01:08 |
| ebowden | Welp, it would be interesting to see how it goes in use as a treatment for cognitive deficits. | 01:13 |
| fenn | god i hate forums | 01:14 |
| fenn | why isn't there a longecity wiki | 01:14 |
| fenn | so much useless bullshit to sift thruogh | 01:14 |
| ebowden | Yeah. | 01:15 |
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| ebowden | So, fenn, what do think of combining a variety of drugs that provide neurological benefits by different mechanisms? | 01:50 |
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| jrayhawk | fenn, QuantumG: http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/hidden/weight/ | 01:58 |
| ebowden | Oh, hey jrayhawk. | 01:59 |
| jrayhawk | weight loss is terrible; friends don't let friends do weight loss. | 02:00 |
| jrayhawk | cargo cultism | 02:00 |
| ebowden | jrayhawk, what do you think of combining drugs that provide neurological benefits by different methods? | 02:01 |
| ebowden | jrayhawk, what do you think of combining drugs that provide neurological benefits by different mechanisms? | 02:02 |
| jrayhawk | xmj: it's an area of poor study; we know of one legume antinutrient that's heat-stable and causes intestinal permeability: peanut agglutinin, and it's suspected that there will be more lectins, saponins, and globulins with problematic immunogenic activity based on the variable responses reported in non-immunogenic diet communities, but it's hard to nail it down for sure since there's also a lot of variance in response to FODMAPs. | 02:05 |
| jrayhawk | they are, at the very least, not particularly optimal. | 02:06 |
| jrayhawk | http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2013/11/beans-lentils-and-paleo-diet.html http://chriskresser.com/are-legumes-paleo have thoughts on the matter | 02:09 |
| jrayhawk | the anthropological record indicates regular use of them by some healthy hunter-gatherer societies, but not, like, the majority of calories as with e.g. pacific islanders and tubers. | 02:11 |
| jrayhawk | ebowden: i am not big on drugs in general | 02:16 |
| ebowden | Oooooooooooooooooh. | 02:16 |
| ebowden | Well, if it helps, they all come from a variety of plants. | 02:17 |
| ebowden | Some of them from fungi. | 02:17 |
| ebowden | You could probably make a good meal from them. | 02:19 |
| jrayhawk | fenn, QuantumG: specifically, while i find it a mostly fair generalization to say that people with fat-heavy body composition are unhealthy, removing weight from an unhealthy person just makes for a weak unhealthy person. | 02:24 |
| jrayhawk | By contrast, I fall into the medical an research definition of overweight: http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/self/poiseanddignity.jpg | 02:25 |
| jrayhawk | this should perhaps tell you something about weight measurement as a paradigm for much of anything. | 02:25 |
| AshleyWaffle | fenn: http://i.imgur.com/K7eqCHf.jpg | 02:27 |
| AshleyWaffle | dont click that | 02:27 |
| AshleyWaffle | except do dont | 02:27 |
| jrayhawk | that is quite the contribution | 02:27 |
| AshleyWaffle | lol | 02:27 |
| AshleyWaffle | best nootropic 12/10 | 02:27 |
| AshleyWaffle | gg | 02:28 |
| cpopell | I dunno what my bmi is | 02:28 |
| cpopell | I know what my bf% is, that's more important | 02:28 |
| jrayhawk | good | 02:28 |
| jrayhawk | i regret knowing what my BMI is | 02:28 |
| cpopell | meh. I'm a powerlifter. | 02:29 |
| jrayhawk | my new years resolution was to gain ten pounds | 02:31 |
| jrayhawk | this would be more meaningful if i had actually known my weight at the time i made that resolution | 02:32 |
| jrayhawk | i guess i can sorta estimate based on the relative difficulty of pistol squats vs weighted squats | 02:33 |
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| ebowden | Anyone here at the moment with any knowledge or expertise regarding neuropharmacology? | 02:51 |
| ebowden | cpopell? | 02:54 |
| ebowden | Would you have any? | 02:54 |
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| xmj | jrayhawk: i didn't even know beans (kidney or green ones) technically counted as legumes. | 03:08 |
| xmj | i always thought they were among the good side :-o | 03:08 |
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| ebowden | Oh, jrayhawk, what do you think of genetically modifying food to be more nutritious? | 03:14 |
| xmj | "messing with nature is bad mkay" | 03:14 |
| ebowden | LOL | 03:15 |
| xmj | I know. Uninformed troll statements always make for good laughs. | 03:15 |
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| ebowden | Did we ever get any anti-GMOers in here? | 03:15 |
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| xmj | It's funny how all Anti-GMOers I ever met were socialist pricks | 03:16 |
| xmj | who never understood that GMO food is cheaper than the bio crap they fed themselves, or wilfully ignored it. | 03:17 |
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| ebowden | It's funny, greenpeace basically uses Africa as it's playground. | 03:18 |
| ebowden | They convinced the government that GMO corn was poisonous, despite all the evidence to the contrary, from research done by ACTUAL scientists. | 03:19 |
| ebowden | Long story short, during a famine, they rejected a load of GMO corn, and a bunch of kids died. | 03:19 |
| ebowden | "Thank you for saving us from the GMO corn Greenpeace!" | 03:20 |
| xmj | yup | 03:24 |
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| ebowden | Is there anyone here? | 05:55 |
| eudoxia | hello hello | 05:57 |
| ebowden | Oh, hello. | 05:57 |
| ebowden | We talked about something earlier. | 05:58 |
| ebowden | What was it? | 05:58 |
| eudoxia | the weather | 05:58 |
| ebowden | Damn, you don't remember either. | 05:59 |
| eudoxia | not it really was the weather | 05:59 |
| eudoxia | i asked you if it was cold in tasmania | 05:59 |
| ebowden | Really? | 05:59 |
| ebowden | Ah, right. | 05:59 |
| ebowden | Derp. | 05:59 |
| eudoxia | you said it was an inbred island but the temperature was fine | 06:00 |
| GoatStimulator | europe? | 06:00 |
| ebowden | There are places where a variety of shops all seem to have the same surname, and everyone looks related. | 06:00 |
| ebowden | Some places in Tasmania are truly like Deliverance. | 06:01 |
| ebowden | No, it's and Island state of Australia. | 06:01 |
| ebowden | No, it's an island state of Australia. | 06:02 |
| ebowden | So, eudoxia, GoatStimulator, what are you guys interested in? | 06:02 |
| eudoxia | i have a friend who lives in adelaide and hates it too | 06:02 |
| eudoxia | "how did this hole accumulate one million people" | 06:02 |
| GoatStimulator | im using kerbel space program atm | 06:03 |
| xmj | hacking, mostly. | 06:03 |
| ebowden | Well, Adelaide is well known around Australia as being a hole. | 06:03 |
| eudoxia | well i'm into whining about extropians and how we need a hands-on, realistic approach to transhumanism while idling on Freenode | 06:03 |
| ebowden | Where I live in Tasmania is actually REALLY nice. | 06:03 |
| ebowden | Forgive my asking, but what are extropians? | 06:04 |
| eudoxia | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extropianism http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Philosophy/princip.html | 06:06 |
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| ebowden | Loading. | 06:07 |
| xmj | all hail singularity. | 06:09 |
| mosasaur | extropy is a wordplay on entropy this is somewhere in the sl4 mailing list | 06:10 |
| chris_99 | "The term 'extropy', as an antonym to 'entropy' was used in a 1967 academic volume discussing cryogenics[2] and in a 1978 academic volume of cybernetics." | 06:11 |
| eudoxia | i'm still waitin for the society of PRNG developers against extropianism | 06:12 |
| mosasaur | chris_99: Yeah I read that now too :-) But I think it's not quite an antonym. | 06:12 |
| chris_99 | how can it be an antonym though | 06:12 |
| mosasaur | indeed | 06:12 |
| chris_99 | considering there is low and high entropy etc | 06:12 |
| eudoxia | the antonym is negentropy | 06:12 |
| eudoxia | probably | 06:14 |
| chris_99 | can you even have negative entropy | 06:14 |
| eudoxia | relative to something i guess | 06:14 |
| chris_99 | hmm | 06:14 |
| * xmj invokes multiple-universes-interpretation | 06:15 | |
| xmj | of course you can! | 06:15 |
| FourFire | eudoxia, I've been to Adelaide, can't disagree | 06:16 |
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| FourFire | eudoxia, lel, try hanging around the redditsphere for a bit | 06:16 |
| FourFire | that will exasperate you on "being realistic and hands on" | 06:17 |
| chris_99 | "Extropy is not a rigorously defined technical term in philosophy or science; in a metaphorical sense, it simply expresses the opposite of entropy." | 06:17 |
| chris_99 | sounds a bit wishy-washy | 06:17 |
| FourFire | timey-wimey | 06:17 |
| eudoxia | FourFire: i think it seems rather nice. a little flat but at least it's probably better than this hole | 06:17 |
| FourFire | eudoxia, and your hole is? | 06:18 |
| eudoxia | FourFire: montevideo, pooruguay | 06:18 |
| FourFire | I live in a bit of a hole myself, trying to escape has proven... demotivational | 06:18 |
| eudoxia | chris_99: "it's not about who's going to let me become a cyborg, it's about who's going to stop me" - the gospel according to Rand | 06:19 |
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| FourFire | eudoxia, fair enough | 06:19 |
| chris_99 | hmm | 06:19 |
| FourFire | eudoxia, A: time, and incompetence | 06:19 |
| mosasaur | "EXTROPY — A measure of intelligence, information, energy, vitality, | 06:20 |
| mosasaur | experience, diversity, opportunity, and growth." | 06:20 |
| mosasaur | "EXTROPIANISM — The philosophy that seeks to increase extropy. " | 06:20 |
| FourFire | of course, your definition of cyborg has a lot to do with it, if you count having magnets implanted in your finger tips, so that you get (techno)magical "I can fuck up a hard drive just by touching it" powers, then it's pretty attainable | 06:20 |
| FourFire | but, if you want to say, be able to generate and turn off magnetic fields at will, and be able to excahgne information wirelessly with computers, and other altered humans, then there's more work to be done | 06:21 |
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| FourFire | (and greater EM field of view, robotic replacement parts etc.) | 06:22 |
| ebowden | Oh, hey FourFire. | 06:23 |
| FourFire | hello | 06:23 |
| FourFire | ebowden, did we discuss something last week, I can't recall... | 06:24 |
| ebowden | Neurofeedback? | 06:25 |
| mosasaur | ebowden, may I ask, why are you here? | 06:25 |
| FourFire | oh yeah | 06:25 |
| FourFire | you know that the Emotiv-Insight, crowdfunded brain signal headgear is coming out very soon | 06:26 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 06:26 |
| FourFire | it's consumer hardware, but I reckon it has potential for biofeedback applications | 06:26 |
| ebowden | monosaur, yes, and I am here because I was told this place is good for those with an interest in biotech. | 06:26 |
| FourFire | http://emotiv.co/product.php | 06:26 |
| mosasaur | thanks ebowden, that seems to be a major axis here yes | 06:28 |
| FourFire | there was a more, hacker friendly headgear which was mentioned in this channel months ago, but I forget what it was called | 06:28 |
| eudoxia | FourFire: OpenEEG? | 06:28 |
| FourFire | ebowden, there is also #bioinformatics but those are more scientists | 06:29 |
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| ebowden | More FOR scientists? | 06:29 |
| FourFire | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_consumer_brain%E2%80%93computer_interfaces | 06:29 |
| ebowden | Or, just with more scientists? | 06:30 |
| FourFire | nah, the people in there are mostly people working | 06:30 |
| FourFire | yeah | 06:30 |
| ebowden | Because I, being not particularly qualified, don't want to be a bother to actual scientist trying to get shit done? | 06:30 |
| FourFire | I hang around there quite a bit, mostly just getting ready to blagh on about my simulation... when I get it working, that is | 06:30 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 06:31 |
| ebowden | *done. | 06:31 |
| FourFire | yeah, (wait until I've explained it before you laugh) | 06:31 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 06:31 |
| ebowden | This will be good. | 06:31 |
| * ebowden rubs hands together | 06:31 | |
| FourFire | I want to setup an evolutionary algorithm to select specific genes which produce RNA sequences which are synthesized into specific proteins which perform functions | 06:32 |
| FourFire | the evolutionary algorithm selects the DNA, based on the performance of the proteins which it produces | 06:32 |
| FourFire | Simulated evolution | 06:32 |
| FourFire | one protein at a time | 06:32 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 06:33 |
| FourFire | of course, that sort of thing requires buttonnes of computing power, but once I get my proof of concept working, and if it produces results, then I'm sure someone will be interested | 06:33 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 06:33 |
| FourFire | and If it works, there are so many applications | 06:34 |
| ebowden | So, what is novel about it? | 06:34 |
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| FourFire | the part where evolution is being put to a directed use, or the part where it's never been done before? | 06:34 |
| FourFire | (or the part where we don't need to evolve a whole organism at once? | 06:35 |
| FourFire | ) | 06:35 |
| ebowden | Hey, why not both? | 06:35 |
| FourFire | basically that whole concept as a thing | 06:35 |
| FourFire | all the pieces have been used for different things, but as far as i can tell, they've never been put together like that before | 06:35 |
| ebowden | So, this is meant to produce a useful protein? | 06:36 |
| FourFire | Yes | 06:36 |
| FourFire | it could also be used to produce synthetic, or artificial genes | 06:37 |
| FourFire | things that don't exist in nature | 06:37 |
| FourFire | imagine, you have an accident, something happens so that you can't breathe any more, or you lose a lot of blood, or you have CO poisoning, whatever: the point is that you stop getting oxygen to your cells | 06:38 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 06:38 |
| FourFire | now, you fortunately have an artificaly sequence of genes which has prepaired you for this sort of event | 06:38 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 06:39 |
| FourFire | inside every cell of your body you now have an additional organelle | 06:39 |
| FourFire | it contains oxygen bonded in a compact way with a ladder of carbon molecules | 06:39 |
| FourFire | now, when your cells stop getting more oxygen | 06:39 |
| ebowden | It releases it's precious oxygen. | 06:40 |
| FourFire | the acidity increase triggers a protein to crawl downa the ladder | 06:40 |
| FourFire | releasing the stored 02 | 06:40 |
| FourFire | and it slowly seeps out of the organelle into the rest of the cell | 06:40 |
| FourFire | (all happening in all your cells at once) | 06:40 |
| ebowden | So, how would you get a carbon ladder that stores O2 in such a tiny space? | 06:40 |
| FourFire | so this gives, you, say 10 minutes more being alive time, to fix whatever happened to you | 06:40 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 06:41 |
| ebowden | But, does such a structure exist? | 06:41 |
| FourFire | I've designed it in my head, but what I need is that protein which builds it, and then later gets activated and releases the O2 | 06:41 |
| FourFire | yes, it exists in theretical chemistry, I can draw it for you if you like | 06:42 |
| FourFire | it's a form of poly HexaOxelene | 06:42 |
| ebowden | Oh, they've made it? | 06:42 |
| FourFire | or "x(COOCOO)" | 06:42 |
| FourFire | it's like a pile of hexagons where four of the corners are oxygen atoms, and the other two, at opposites are carbon | 06:43 |
| FourFire | and the carbon atoms link to the layer above, and the layer below | 06:43 |
| FourFire | the point is, that a protein which could build such a ladder and then, (or perhaps a separate protein) doesn't exist | 06:44 |
| ebowden | Has it been synthesised, and would it be possible to biosynthesise? | 06:44 |
| ebowden | Yeah, you need to get that protein. | 06:45 |
| FourFire | now my method, could produce the gene sequence which would synthesize that protein | 06:45 |
| FourFire | no, I need to get the Gene for the protein | 06:45 |
| FourFire | having the protein doesn't help much if I can't build it | 06:45 |
| ebowden | Ok, why not just find a protein that does it, and make a gene sequence that will make the protein? | 06:45 |
| FourFire | now, that example is just one of many | 06:45 |
| FourFire | we have a problem, (survive for longer with no oxygen getting to your cells) | 06:46 |
| FourFire | and a multitude of possible resolutions | 06:46 |
| FourFire | ebowden, that's an awefully big "just" | 06:47 |
| ebowden | Yes, it is. | 06:47 |
| ebowden | But why not start with the protein? | 06:47 |
| FourFire | you could | 06:48 |
| FourFire | but then you'd need to reverse engineer it, and decode it into genetic code, or figure out some other way to produce it and regulate it's production, and all sorts of other things | 06:48 |
| FourFire | could take a collab of several teams of biochemists and bioengineers and other people with important sciencey titles a Long Time | 06:49 |
| FourFire | and then, all that effort, not much of it could be reused | 06:50 |
| FourFire | I mean you'd have the target protein, and the dna for it, great! but then you'd have to do the whole thing all over again if you wanted something which ate cholesterol in the blood stream, for example | 06:50 |
| FourFire | or, something which could filter heavy metals from the bloodstream before they enter cells | 06:51 |
| ebowden | So, how is your method coming along? | 06:53 |
| FourFire | or something which detects specific hormone-like compounds, and collects them for disposal, or specialized garbage collector metabolism | 06:53 |
| ebowden | Is it attracting interest? | 06:53 |
| FourFire | well, like I said, I haven't gotten the proof of concept working yet, and I won't be advertising it beyond say, discussing it in IRC channels before I know it works | 06:54 |
| FourFire | I might be enthusiastic about the possibilities, but I'm not going to waste other people's time for something which doesn't work. | 06:54 |
| ebowden | Sounds quite sensible. | 06:56 |
| FourFire | http://www.openbci.com was that other biofeedback headset i was thinking of | 06:59 |
| FourFire | though it's more of a devboard, with accessories, which they sell | 06:59 |
| FourFire | and a 3D printable mount for the board and sensors | 07:00 |
| ebowden | Ah, ok. | 07:00 |
| ebowden | Neat. | 07:00 |
| FourFire | much more hacker, than consumer | 07:00 |
| ebowden | By the way, did you get the paper I linked? | 07:00 |
| FourFire | no, which one? | 07:02 |
| ebowden | Oh, right. | 07:03 |
| ebowden | Sorry. | 07:03 |
| ebowden | Sifting through for it now. | 07:03 |
| cluckj | getting rid of CO2 is just as important as providing O2 :P | 07:03 |
| FourFire | clukj of course | 07:05 |
| FourFire | but you Need CO2 for metabolism, anaerobic is so inefficient | 07:05 |
| FourFire | I mean, O2 | 07:05 |
| ebowden | Ah, here FourFire | 07:06 |
| ebowden | http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3297423/pdf/nihms-359501.pdf | 07:06 |
| FourFire | ah yes I have it up actually | 07:06 |
| FourFire | I did not read past the first three or so paragraphs yet | 07:06 |
| ebowden | Ah, ok. | 07:07 |
| cluckj | CO2 will turn you into a bag of acid pretty quickly | 07:07 |
| ebowden | Oh, this is also neat: | 07:08 |
| ebowden | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Active%20maintenance%20in%20prefrontal%20area%2046%20creates%20distractor-resistant%20memory.pdf | 07:09 |
| FourFire | cluckj, bag of acid is preferrable to dying right away, it's just an example of a temporary solution to a problem which would increase survivability of things like heart attack/stroke/drowning etc. | 07:09 |
| FourFire | cluckj, but I'm reasonably sure that there's some smart way to store up CO2 as well, that's another thing a seperate protein could maybe do | 07:10 |
| cluckj | o_O | 07:10 |
| cluckj | that's what I'm trying to say | 07:10 |
| FourFire | yeah, that's it | 07:10 |
| cluckj | you need a lot of proteins to do different things if you even want to mess with one part of cellular metabolism | 07:10 |
| ebowden | Oh, I think they found one in eggshells that does it quite well. | 07:11 |
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| FourFire | maybe instead of one additional organelle, you have two: one which slowly leaks O2, one which slowly sucks up CO2 | 07:11 |
| FourFire | eggshells are porous | 07:11 |
| cluckj | why not just cut O2 out of respiration altogether | 07:14 |
| FourFire | cluckj, have you had a look at The Krebs Cycle ? | 07:14 |
| FourFire | it's a crazy multipurpose system and requires at least some basic knowledge of chemistry elements and bonds, but it's basically an energy converter system of chemical reactions | 07:15 |
| ebowden | Oh, hellp cluckj. | 07:15 |
| ebowden | *hello | 07:15 |
| FourFire | it's thing like that which lead people to think that "evolution" has been "designed" to do some specific thing, or that it's straining for some goal | 07:16 |
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| FourFire | whereas that's pretty much wrong | 07:16 |
| cluckj | the krebs cycle doesn't exist on its own | 07:16 |
| FourFire | of course | 07:16 |
| FourFire | it's just a tiny part of the whole interconnected system | 07:16 |
| cluckj | and iirc it's anaerobic :P | 07:16 |
| FourFire | it can be, but it's like <20th as efficient then | 07:17 |
| ebowden | ... | 07:17 |
| cluckj | hi ebowden | 07:17 |
| FourFire | in terms of how much ATP is produced per oxygen | 07:17 |
| ebowden | ... | 07:17 |
| FourFire | or, rather, how many energetic phosphor compounds are added per Gluclose | 07:18 |
| ebowden | Ah, you had me a wee bit worried there for a moment. | 07:18 |
| FourFire | it uses much more glucose, and produces fewer energetic phosphor compounds... which is why we die when we run out of oxygen | 07:19 |
| ebowden | But it's part of aerobic respiration. | 07:19 |
| ebowden | Oh, cluckj, what do you like to do? | 07:19 |
| FourFire | I ... appreciate how it can basically have any input | 07:20 |
| FourFire | Fats, proteins, or sugars | 07:20 |
| FourFire | if it had a designer, or a group of designers, I'd calla them utterly brilliant | 07:20 |
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| FourFire | but, I reckon that there is room for improvement | 07:21 |
| cluckj | ebowden, argue about biochemistry on irc apparently :\ | 07:21 |
| FourFire | low hanging fruit which can be made with directed purpose | 07:21 |
| FourFire | lots of hard work, of course, but it's possible | 07:21 |
| ebowden | cluckj, what else? | 07:21 |
| @kanzure | new rule: acronyms are banned | 07:21 |
| cluckj | boo | 07:22 |
| ebowden | Even KREBS cycle? | 07:22 |
| cluckj | krebs isn't an acronym | 07:22 |
| FourFire | in my previous example, I'd argue that there is little fitness advantage, and thus little opportunity for something to survive blood loss to the extent of pressure loss | 07:22 |
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| ebowden | Oh right. | 07:22 |
| ebowden | Derp. | 07:22 |
| cluckj | krebs was a dude, dude | 07:22 |
| cluckj | I mean iirc krebs was a dude | 07:23 |
| FourFire | krebs is the name of the dude which discovered it, but are you disallowing ATP kanzure ? | 07:23 |
| ebowden | It is an abbreviation, though. | 07:23 |
| cluckj | or btw iirc krebs was a dude | 07:23 |
| cluckj | :) | 07:23 |
| FourFire | krebs cycle is fully googleable | 07:23 |
| cluckj | ebowden, I'm an anthropologist who studies | 07:23 |
| cluckj | 'amateur' scientists | 07:23 |
| ebowden | Kanzure, are you going to make everyone type out the whole Adenosine Triphosphate and Adenosine Diphosphate every time? | 07:24 |
| ebowden | cluckj, Really? | 07:25 |
| @kanzure | the anti-genetically-modified-foodies are useful because monsanto is evil for other reasons (intellectual property crap) | 07:25 |
| cluckj | ebowden, yes | 07:25 |
| ebowden | Well, I'd think your impression might not be quite so grand, based off just this. | 07:27 |
| cluckj | hahaha | 07:27 |
| @kanzure | unfortunately i can't recommend getting excited about emotiv products, emotiv epoc was pretty low quality and electroencephalography is more disappointing than everyone thinks | 07:27 |
| ebowden | Ah. | 07:28 |
| cluckj | I'd be a pretty terrible scientist if I based my opinion off of one source of data :P | 07:29 |
| ebowden | Yes, you would. You would be a horrible scientist. | 07:29 |
| ebowden | However, I am not certain this is exactly a 'one-off'. | 07:30 |
| @kanzure | abbreviations are also mostly banned | 07:31 |
| cluckj | on whose end? | 07:31 |
| @kanzure | ebowden: yes, i am going to force them to type out "adenosine triphosphate" | 07:31 |
| ebowden | Yeah, I thought so. | 07:31 |
| cluckj | laughing out loud | 07:31 |
| cluckj | oh god that's awful | 07:31 |
| @kanzure | i will also threaten, blackmail and extort them into compliance | 07:32 |
| ebowden | What's awful cluckj? | 07:32 |
| cluckj | typing out "lol" | 07:32 |
| ebowden | Ah. | 07:32 |
| ebowden | Kanzure, is this some preachy exercise in trying to make people understand, and think more about that they are talking about? | 07:33 |
| cluckj | ebowden, I've been working on this project a long time and I | 07:33 |
| cluckj | m fairly non-judgmental | 07:34 |
| @kanzure | no, it's just rage | 07:34 |
| cluckj | and I hate my keyboard, my ' is right next to my enter key | 07:34 |
| chris_99 | cluckj, what's the project | 07:34 |
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| ebowden | Kanzure, I had hoped so. | 07:35 |
| FourFire | "yeah I agree that Monsanto is evil, now just stfu and accept that some natural things are bad, and some artificial things are good" | 07:35 |
| cluckj | studying how non-institutional scientists ("amateurs") build labs, do science, etc. | 07:35 |
| FourFire | I feel aggravated when "Nature!" hippies venn diagram with deathists | 07:36 |
| chris_99 | aha cool, cluckj, writing a book or something | 07:36 |
| FourFire | unfortunately, this person is my father | 07:36 |
| cluckj | dissertation, then a book | 07:36 |
| ebowden | chris_99: The project is a study of amateur scientists, that will culminate in him presenting to the world what a complete incompetent shambles we are, if you must know. | 07:36 |
| chris_99 | cluckj, is this masters/phd/..? | 07:37 |
| cluckj | ebowden don't spoil my thesis statement! | 07:37 |
| chris_99 | heh | 07:37 |
| cluckj | chris_99, PhD | 07:37 |
| chris_99 | cool, what kind of PhD is it for if you don't mind me asking | 07:37 |
| cluckj | science and technology studies | 07:37 |
| @kanzure | aka stalker studies | 07:38 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure | 07:38 | |
| cluckj | yep | 07:38 |
| kanzure | i was warned | 07:39 |
| ebowden | Kanzure, are you just angry that he's going to tell everyone what a bunch of numpties amateur scientists are? | 07:39 |
| ebowden | :D | 07:39 |
| kanzure | what are you commenting on? i don't understand. | 07:39 |
| cluckj | hah, warned about what and by whom? | 07:39 |
| kanzure | 07:38 <@kanzure> aka stalker studies | 07:39 |
| kanzure | i said "aka" | 07:39 |
| kanzure | i was warned by myself | 07:39 |
| ebowden | cluckj's thesis | 07:39 |
| FourFire | I wonder if qntm.org/ra is updated | 07:40 |
| kanzure | i have never read his thesis | 07:40 |
| kanzure | i don't know (or really care) if i qualify as an amateur scientist | 07:40 |
| ebowden | He is writing one now, to smear us. | 07:40 |
| kanzure | qualifying under that label doesn't bestow me any particular benefits | 07:40 |
| cluckj | ^-- yep | 07:41 |
| kanzure | i really don't think he's going to be smearing anyone | 07:41 |
| kanzure | but if he does, who fucking cares | 07:41 |
| cluckj | also yes | 07:41 |
| ebowden | I know, I'm joking kanzure. | 07:41 |
| kanzure | just give him a sugar cube and he'll fucken die | 07:41 |
| cluckj | :o | 07:41 |
| kanzure | well it's true | 07:41 |
| cluckj | kanzure knows my kryptonite! | 07:41 |
| kanzure | actually i wonder if it is true or not | 07:42 |
| kanzure | maybe a really big sugar cube | 07:42 |
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| cluckj | you'd have to keep me away from my insulin pump for a while | 07:42 |
| kanzure | that's too inconvenient | 07:42 |
| ebowden | What about dry rice? | 07:42 |
| FourFire | and I now have a fear of asteroid mining companies | 07:42 |
| ebowden | FourFire, why? | 07:43 |
| FourFire | http://www.openbci.com | 07:43 |
| FourFire | sorry http://qntm.org/asteroids | 07:43 |
| ebowden | Ah, ok. | 07:43 |
| FourFire | "The basic rule is you multiply by 15. A 3,000-tonne rock carries the same impact energy as 45-kilotonne nuclear bomb. At minimum. " | 07:43 |
| cluckj | I'd have to say that writing nasty stuff about 'amateur' scientists would make me an extremely ungrateful bastard | 07:43 |
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| FourFire | cluckj, name your closest example | 07:45 |
| FourFire | electricity? | 07:45 |
| cluckj | closest example to what? | 07:45 |
| kanzure | what would electricity be an example of? | 07:45 |
| kanzure | you guys are incomprehensible and evil | 07:45 |
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| xmj | FourFire: are you afraid astromining companies will turn into Free Luna Republic a la Heinlein, and throw rocks at Earth? | 07:46 |
| FourFire | The inventor of 60Hz AC transmission was, arguably, an amateur scientist | 07:46 |
| FourFire | brilliant | 07:46 |
| FourFire | well, wait, no they got a degree in electrical engineering | 07:46 |
| FourFire | scratch that | 07:46 |
| cluckj | I don't like the label 'amateur scientist' because it's a misnomer | 07:46 |
| FourFire | xmj, I have not read any heinlein, please don't spoil | 07:46 |
| FourFire | and now I get the reference | 07:46 |
| FourFire | that meme makes sense now... | 07:47 |
| kanzure | "amateur non-amateur" | 07:47 |
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| ebowden | Memo to all: In order to placate Kanzure, should we ever talk about spider silk, the spinneret must be referred to as the 'silk-but'. We must also make easy explanations of our ideas, using brightly coloured blocks. | 07:47 |
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| ebowden | :D | 07:47 |
| xmj | FourFire: too late | 07:47 |
| cluckj | the amateur/professional distinction is counterproductive as far as what I'm trying to talk about goes | 07:48 |
| ebowden | We know you won't be mean to us cluckj. | 07:48 |
| FourFire | xmj, well "Green mars" has the martians lobbing deimos at earth | 07:48 |
| xmj | i haven't read that one. damn you, and we're even | 07:48 |
| FourFire | ;P | 07:49 |
| FourFire | still worth the read | 07:49 |
| cluckj | ebowden, I do have plenty of other folks to be mean to | 07:49 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 07:50 |
| kanzure | what? it's not conceivable that he knows others? wtf | 07:50 |
| chris_99 | has anyone read Elephants on Acid: and Other Bizarre Experiments and the sequel? i thought it was interesting anyhow | 07:50 |
| ebowden | Kanzure: I'm just mining for a story here. | 07:50 |
| cluckj | o_O | 07:51 |
| xmj | FourFire: i've read enough Heinlein to let him rest in pieces; i've read a few of his were I could predict the plot well enough to turn to other authors. | 07:51 |
| kanzure | ebowden: just ask for it then, damn | 07:51 |
| cluckj | yeah | 07:51 |
| ebowden | So, cluckj, what others have you got to be meant to? | 07:51 |
| xmj | ebowden: sometimes it comes handy to have imaginary friends. | 07:51 |
| kanzure | this is worse than herding cats | 07:52 |
| cluckj | there are some jerks who have done bad research on the same people that I'm working with | 07:52 |
| ebowden | Ah. | 07:52 |
| ebowden | cluckj, what was this? | 07:53 |
| cluckj | oh just things like pressuring them into 4-hour interviews without notice, not explaining informed consent correctly, a ton of journalists with bad ethics | 07:54 |
| ebowden | Ah. | 07:55 |
| ebowden | So, it was more 'research' than research. | 07:55 |
| kanzure | what does that even mean | 07:55 |
| cluckj | O_o | 07:55 |
| kanzure | i think i hate you | 07:56 |
| cluckj | token research or interviews? | 07:56 |
| cluckj | there was some of that | 07:56 |
| kanzure | why is this guy so bad at sentences? | 07:56 |
| kanzure | our other australian seems okay | 07:56 |
| cluckj | there was also a researcher that didn't know who I was that tried to guilt me into doing an interview with them while I was doing fieldwork | 07:57 |
| cluckj | I was not nice to them | 07:57 |
| FourFire | so kanzure you didn't answer me, are you banning ATP ? | 07:58 |
| cluckj | my point is that even if I wanted to be a jerk and say mean things, there are plenty of others that would deserve it | 07:58 |
| kanzure | 07:31 <@kanzure> ebowden: yes, i am going to force them to type out "adenosine triphosphate" | 07:58 |
| xmj | banning ATP..huh what | 07:58 |
| kanzure | abbreviations/acronyms | 07:58 |
| kanzure | AA, you know | 07:58 |
| eudoxia | kanzure no | 07:59 |
| eudoxia | you have become eliezer | 07:59 |
| eudoxia | soon you'll take down the logs too D: | 07:59 |
| FourFire | I doubt you could blackmail me, but you're free to try ;) | 07:59 |
| kanzure | FourFire: you are easy to blackmail, i'll just publish #lesswrong logs in your name | 07:59 |
| FourFire | I'm also unsure what exactly you'd try to extort from me either | 07:59 |
| ebowden | Oh, just got back kanzure. My sentences were bad to you because I was talking to someone who I knew would get it easily, and would not need me to a pantomime and explain things to him with lego. | 08:01 |
| ebowden | :D | 08:01 |
| ebowden | Sorry, didn't meant to be mean, I just really wanted to use the lego line. | 08:02 |
| kanzure | you are not very good at being mean | 08:02 |
| ebowden | I know, wasn't trying. | 08:03 |
| ebowden | Just wanted to use the one about lego. | 08:03 |
| xmj | Any engineer can convey important points with Lego | 08:04 |
| ebowden | If I wanted to be mean, I would go find the comments section on some new age homeopathy video, and start bringing my horrible reality buzzkill juices to the party. | 08:04 |
| ebowden | Ah yes, lego is awesome. | 08:05 |
| chris_99 | maybe homeopathy does work though ;) | 08:05 |
| chris_99 | via the placebo effect | 08:05 |
| FourFire | kanzure, but logs published are banned from the channel | 08:05 |
| FourFire | if you defect in such a way, it can end badly for you | 08:05 |
| cluckj | O_o | 08:05 |
| eudoxia | FourFire: under your name | 08:06 |
| eudoxia | FourFire: possibly signed with your private key because kanzure has root everywhere after all | 08:06 |
| ebowden | *And yes, | 08:06 |
| cluckj | ebowden, I sometimes understand easily | 08:06 |
| FourFire | I think enough people in that channel know how incompetent I am, that I was unable to actually log an event which I as supposed to log, so it's realistic to presume that I don't even have logs | 08:06 |
| cluckj | but I also ask really obtuse questions as a hazard of the job | 08:07 |
| FourFire | however, if you post logs in your own name, of me... well | 08:07 |
| FourFire | defectors must be punished | 08:07 |
| FourFire | (but please, do tell) | 08:07 |
| kanzure | i said your name, wtf | 08:07 |
| FourFire | What The Fuck* | 08:07 |
| ebowden | Oh, cluckj, do you know much about biology? | 08:08 |
| cluckj | I have a BS in biochemistry | 08:08 |
| cluckj | and taught biology to undergrads for a year | 08:08 |
| ebowden | Oh, that's neat. | 08:09 |
| kanzure | that sounds close to no :) | 08:09 |
| ebowden | LOL | 08:09 |
| cluckj | hahaha | 08:09 |
| ebowden | It's more than me, for sure. | 08:09 |
| cluckj | I guess it was three semesters | 08:10 |
| cluckj | is that closer to yes kanzure? | 08:10 |
| cluckj | at least a maybe? | 08:10 |
| kanzure | don't care, i think ebowden's inquisitions are dumb. | 08:10 |
| cluckj | :) | 08:11 |
| kanzure | i am not a licensed biologist, does that mean that i don't know biology? fuck you | 08:11 |
| cluckj | exactly | 08:11 |
| cluckj | I shouldn't have listed credentials :P | 08:12 |
| ebowden | Kanzure, I'm only looking for someone who knows enough to answer some of the questions I might have. | 08:12 |
| cluckj | I probably do not know enough right now to answer your biology questions | 08:13 |
| cluckj | I might have, before I drank the social science kool aid | 08:13 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: http://www.themalaymailonline.com/features/article/bitcoin-boss-karpeles-easily-led-not-dishonest-says-mother | 08:14 |
| kanzure | ebowden: stop wasting people's time and just ask the questions upfront | 08:14 |
| cluckj | ^ | 08:14 |
| kanzure | ebowden: there's this general irc policy of "don't ask to ask" | 08:14 |
| ebowden | Ah, ok. | 08:14 |
| ebowden | So, what do you guys think of 'combining' a variety of drugs that give neurological benefits by different mechanisms? | 08:16 |
| kanzure | i don't know what you mean by "combining" | 08:16 |
| ebowden | Taking them together. | 08:17 |
| eudoxia | taking them simultaneousl - yeah | 08:17 |
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| kanzure | didn't you say you read the longecity forums? | 08:17 |
| kanzure | i'm having trouble understanding why you would ask that question | 08:17 |
| kanzure | given that you read longecity.org stuff | 08:17 |
| ebowden | Not too often, but I do sometimes. | 08:17 |
| ebowden | Again, I've read about three threads. | 08:18 |
| kanzure | many of their users take multiple drugs simultaneously. | 08:18 |
| ebowden | Mainly hoping someone here would know of some potentiating synergy that had been clinically studied, or whatever you call it. | 08:20 |
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| cluckj | lunchtime, bbl | 08:24 |
| ebowden | Basically, has anyone heard of an example of a clinical trial here two neuroactive drugs that work by different mechanisms, which, having significant benefit on their own, had a much heightened benefit when used together. | 08:24 |
| ebowden | *together? | 08:24 |
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| ebowden | Ok cluckj. | 08:24 |
| ebowden | Specifically, benefit involving heightened neurogenesis, myleination, etc. | 08:27 |
| kanzure | now you wait until someone answers | 08:28 |
| ebowden | Ok, thanks kanzure. | 08:28 |
| justanotheruser | Is it a bad idea to ignore nih.govs robots.text? | 08:36 |
| justanotheruser | *txt | 08:36 |
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| kanzure | yes, because they offer most of their data by ftp | 08:39 |
| kanzure | probably all | 08:39 |
| justanotheruser | Where? | 08:39 |
| kanzure | probably ftp.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov or something | 08:40 |
| justanotheruser | OK thanks | 08:42 |
| @ParahSailin | lol | 08:42 |
| justanotheruser | You havin a chuckle ParahSailin? | 08:42 |
| @ParahSailin | what you looking for from ncbi | 08:43 |
| justanotheruser | I want to make a directed graph of chemical reactions. For example, H2 and O2 would point to h2o | 08:45 |
| @ParahSailin | oh yeah, not gonna find that | 08:45 |
| justanotheruser | It seems like ncbi isn't a very full synthesis db | 08:45 |
| kanzure | lookup for a thing called an "organic reaction database" | 08:46 |
| kanzure | and then you have reaction mechanisms which are really just graph grammars for rewriting the graphs of compounds through the addition of chemicals | 08:47 |
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| justanotheruser | Would it be useful for an ametuer chemist to have a website describing the tools, chemicals and procedures necessary to create a chemical along with a graphical explanation of the reaction? | 08:48 |
| justanotheruser | The next step would be to scrape online chemical stores and see if a chemical or tool is easily available. Then you see if you can make a chemical based on what is easily available | 08:49 |
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| justanotheruser | Oh wow, synarchive is pretty scrapable | 08:51 |
| justanotheruser | Is there an inorganic equivalent? | 08:52 |
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| kanzure | oh yeah, reaxys | 09:25 |
| kanzure | ugh | 09:25 |
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| cluckj | o_O | 10:06 |
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| jrayhawk | ahaha that mother thing is great | 10:33 |
| kanzure | "The first Anne heard of the blowout at Mt. Gox was when a local reporter telephoned her. “I didn't even know Mark was the boss,” she recalled. “I had to look it up on Wikipedia.”" | 10:34 |
| jrayhawk | every sentence that comes out of her mouth just makes her look that much more reliable | 10:35 |
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| eudoxia | >PHP doctor | 10:38 |
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| jrayhawk | "< ebowden> Oh, jrayhawk, what do you think of genetically modifying food to be more nutritious?" our understanding of nutrition is too primitive for that to be genuinely safe, and the resources are never allocated for such egalitarian purposes anyway. We've had interesting successes and failures throughout our thousands of years of genetic crop alteration; I find it entirely reasonable that people want to draw an (admittedly ... | 10:42 |
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| jrayhawk | ... arbitrary) line in the sand declaring a higher standard of proof of safety is needed for further alteration, especially given how crass the applications of the latest techniques have been. | 10:42 |
| kanzure | i wonder if anyone can successfully redirect all the anti-genetically-modified-organism hatred towards anti-IP stuff | 10:43 |
| kanzure | erm, anti-intellectual-property | 10:44 |
| jrayhawk | that does seem to be a thing that's accidently happening w.r.t. Monsanto's glysophate soybean legal machinations. | 10:47 |
| cluckj | you might be able to convince some people on the anti-IP stuff, but there's a lot of anti-GMO sentiment that isn't for the same reasons | 10:47 |
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| kanzure | i haven't seen any good non-legal-related anti-GMO arguments | 10:48 |
| cluckj | "playing god" is a pretty effective argument for a lot of people | 10:49 |
| jrayhawk | http://consumerist.com/2014/04/08/congratulations-to-comcast-your-2014-worst-company-in-america/ i am pretty sure this public sentiment is mostly a product of the seed-saving fights | 10:49 |
| kanzure | i have seen general anxiety about "meddling with nature", but no specific claims, like "if you use a novel protein, you will cause a plague because [evidence]" | 10:49 |
| kanzure | "playing god" is an ethical argument, not an argument based on evidence | 10:49 |
| jrayhawk | the bigger concern is increased use of glysophate and similarly dangerous pesticides and herbicides | 10:49 |
| cluckj | if someone thinks GMOs are bad because it's "playing god," an evidentary or logical argument probably isn't going to convince them of anything | 10:50 |
| jrayhawk | though, TBH, I can't bring myself to care much about people who think soy and wheat are acceptable human food | 10:50 |
| kanzure | i could maybe accept something like, "increased herbicide/pesticide resistance will cause other farms across the world to stop being able to produce food, so therefore anything GMO is a scorched-earth policy" | 10:50 |
| kanzure | cluckj: yeah but i also don't care about them, so it evens out | 10:51 |
| cluckj | hah | 10:51 |
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| cluckj | that doesn't mean they stop existing :P | 10:51 |
| kanzure | hmm | 10:52 |
| kanzure | well then how is the patent system not "playing god" in the same way | 10:52 |
| cluckj | owning property or knowledge isn't natural | 10:53 |
| kanzure | i suspect even some of their arguments can be redirected away from specifically the concerns of human-manipulated genetics | 10:53 |
| kanzure | and since they aren't complaining about the centuries of crossing plants etc, then they are just being moronic | 10:53 |
| cluckj | my own personal concern about GMOs is the IP problem | 10:53 |
| jrayhawk | at least GMO disease-resistant squash seems to have been an okay idea | 10:54 |
| cluckj | the people that can do GMOs really well are the same ones who want to fuck everyone for profit | 10:54 |
| cluckj | really well in the scientific sense... | 10:55 |
| cluckj | disease resistant like BT toxin producing? | 10:56 |
| jrayhawk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cacao_swollen-shoot_virus the best coup for public GMO sentiment would be fixing this | 10:58 |
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| cluckj | or coffee tree diseases :) | 10:59 |
| kanzure | oh that's an interesting virus | 11:00 |
| kanzure | especially since it has economic consequences | 11:00 |
| jrayhawk | coffee rust, or swollen-shoot? | 11:01 |
| kanzure | "In Ghana, between 2006 and 2010, over 28 million trees were removed for being visibly infected or for being in contact with infected trees." | 11:01 |
| kanzure | cacao swollen-shoot virus | 11:01 |
| cluckj | I agree...instead of focusing on things people like, companies that can make GMOs are spending their time on things that are easily patentable and make them a bunch of money | 11:01 |
| cluckj | like glyphosate resistant everything | 11:01 |
| kanzure | hehe "Farmers are also occasionally resistant to the idea of killing infected plants if they feel they can still get some harvest from them.[17]" | 11:01 |
| kanzure | "Today CSSV is responsible for 15% of total cocoa crop loss in the world." cool | 11:02 |
| kanzure | so i wonder if a virus assay would have some economic consequences | 11:02 |
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| kanzure | with cocoa futures or something | 11:03 |
| kanzure | cocao | 11:03 |
| kanzure | cacao | 11:03 |
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| kanzure | "Over 200 million trees have already been claimed by this disease, which has prompted Ghana to launch the most ambitious and costly eradication effort of any country in the world against a viral plant disease." | 11:04 |
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| FourFire | kanzure, I have thought through a whole load of mental stuff which leads to the conclusion that attempting to play god is in fact desirable, or at least not something to be discouraged | 11:11 |
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| kanzure | why are you telling me. have i given any indication that i think the "playing god" argument is a good one? | 11:12 |
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| FourFire | nope, none at all, I'm just noting that arguments exist which contradict such people using their own logic | 11:13 |
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| FourFire | self consistent arguments, no less | 11:13 |
| kanzure | this is a strange way to do service discovery https://github.com/flynn/strowger | 11:15 |
| cluckj | lol | 11:15 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, go find me horse breeders who want to buy ECM hydrogel | 11:16 |
| delinquentme | gogoogogo | 11:16 |
| kanzure | ask jrayhawk, i'm sure he'll love to tell you about his obsession with horses | 11:16 |
| delinquentme | jrayhawk, I like horses too! | 11:16 |
| delinquentme | maybe not in the same way though | 11:16 |
| cluckj | ew? | 11:18 |
| kanzure | (it's funny because jrayhawk hates horses) | 11:19 |
| kanzure | http://www.surgi-carecenter.com/resources/publications/articletype/articleview/articleid/13/regenerative-medicine-part-2-platelet-rich-plasma-and-extra-cellular-matrix.aspx | 11:19 |
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| sheena | horses? | 11:24 |
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| kanzure | .wa 422 galons / 6 inches | 11:27 |
| yoleaux | (422 gallons)/(6 inches): 10.48 m² (square meters); Unit conversions: 1.048×10⁻⁵ km² (square kilometers); 0.1048 a (ares); 0.01048 daa (decares); 4.047×10⁻⁶ mi² (square miles); 112.8 ft² (square feet); Comparisons as area: ~(0.5 to 1) × area of a typical American parking space (10 to 20 m²); ~3.9 × area of a typical office desk (2 to 4 m²); Comparisons as surface area: ~(0.022 ~1/46) × B2 stealth bomber wing … | 11:27 |
| yoleaux | surface area (~478 m²) | 11:27 |
| kanzure | how did i typo gallons :( | 11:27 |
| kanzure | oh that's just surface area. hmm. | 11:27 |
| chris_99 | gallons ick ;) | 11:28 |
| kanzure | .wa 422 gallons = 9 * x * pi | 11:29 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: Sorry, no result! | 11:30 |
| kanzure | i thought it dumped straight into mathematica (essentially)? | 11:30 |
| jrayhawk | fucking horses | 11:31 |
| kanzure | since he doesn't understand sarcasm you're welcome for the lifetime of his misunderstanding about your horse interests | 11:31 |
| kanzure | your reputation is quickly growing into a horse-loving programming uh.. what was the other one. | 11:32 |
| chris_99 | paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/jp7111395 | 11:32 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/e2c41050b767b21e671568de45bf8e31.pdf | 11:32 |
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| kanzure | why don't we have someone in here obsessed with watches | 12:19 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, I am... but I just dont spend cash on them | 12:19 |
| chris_99 | kanzure, did you see that CSAC on kickstarter? | 12:21 |
| kanzure | no, but actually i was thinking more about mechanical watches | 12:22 |
| chris_99 | ah | 12:22 |
| kanzure | atomic watches are okay things | 12:22 |
| kanzure | h dear "Due to the presence of a COM port, the Cesium 133 prototype is capable of displaying numerous functions beyond simple timekeeping when connected via RS-232 cable" | 12:23 |
| kanzure | *oh dear | 12:23 |
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| xmj | jrayhawk: now i have to flip my nutrition | 12:30 |
| * xmj sighs | 12:30 | |
| kanzure | i wonder if someone really thought they had to spell it out http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zj1YpnAR-cA/SOsKbpbgVJI/AAAAAAAAABE/dIG2CYW7I9s/s1600-h/Squid37D.jpg | 12:33 |
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| kanzure | http://nerds.airbnb.com/do-it-yourself-ach-direct-deposit/ | 12:59 |
| kanzure | "One of the most frequent implementation questions that I am asked by entrepreneurs is how does Airbnb make ACH direct deposits into customers’ bank accounts. There seems to be a wave of transactional marketplaces being built and everyone wants this capability. Surprisingly, there were few, if any, plug-and-play providers of this service when I implemented our solution for Airbnb, though I do know multiple companies who are building ... | 12:59 |
| kanzure | ... products around this now." | 12:59 |
| kanzure | "The do-it-yourself solution is quite straightforward though. Most commercial banks have an interface that can be activated by request that allows you to make ACH deposits. Like many startups in the Bay Area, we are a customer of Silicon Valley Bank, and, as a result, our original implementation used the SVBeConnect ACH Service. Each day our system would output a CSV file that contained batched deposit instructions (basically amount and ... | 12:59 |
| kanzure | ... beneficiary account details). Each weekday someone in our office would upload the file to the bank, though this step can be automated using secure FTP." | 12:59 |
| kanzure | yikes. | 12:59 |
| kanzure | "Validation can be accomplished by issuing a “pre note” (a special type of transaction in which no money is transferred) or by making a micro deposit. If the account details are wrong, a notification is typically generated within 1-3 business days. Another manual step is collecting these error notifications each day and notifying the customer. Although it would be nice if an API or XML report existed for this, a manual, but streamlined ... | 13:00 |
| kanzure | ... workflow is sufficient for our needs." | 13:00 |
| kanzure | huh there's an "official" ACH site | 13:00 |
| kanzure | https://www.nacha.org/ | 13:00 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: what was the name of bart's bootstrapping company? | 13:04 |
| kanzure | maybe it wasn't bart | 13:04 |
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| jrayhawk | bart at least had a strong academic interest in bootstrapping | 13:36 |
| jrayhawk | i don't recall a company ever being formed | 13:36 |
| jrayhawk | jblake would know more | 13:37 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: it was about servers and build toolchains | 13:43 |
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| jrayhawk | oh, http://apters.com/ | 13:47 |
| jrayhawk | NixOS is also of interest | 13:49 |
| kanzure | there's this weird bootstrapping problem with getting development environments to the right people | 13:55 |
| kanzure | and then they need to be able to get the right environments to build the development environments.. (wtf) | 13:55 |
| kanzure | and then the development environments can build the production environments | 13:55 |
| Lemminkainen | vagrants all the way down | 13:56 |
| kanzure | does vagrant's .dmg install on osx without xcode and without the non-gui xcode bundle? | 13:57 |
| kanzure | biggest problem so far has been team members (on whatever projects) using osx | 13:57 |
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| Lemminkainen | people would be trying to mount any of this without their osx set up for dev? | 13:57 |
| kanzure | and i think the only option is something like oracle virtualbox for using vagrant on osx | 13:58 |
| kanzure | unless you shell out for vmware fusion and that vagrant plugin | 13:58 |
| kanzure | ugh | 13:58 |
| jrayhawk | git annex seems like an okay way to distribute build environment stuff nowadays | 14:02 |
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| xentrac | Lemminkainen: it would be nice to be able to run my entire dev env in Linux without having to worry about proper suspend driver support for my hypothetical macbook | 14:25 |
| cpopell | I'm being lazy and just using c9 right now because my dev env is very limited | 14:27 |
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| Lemminkainen | aren't you on Windows, cpopell ? | 14:39 |
| cpopell | yeah, but c9 works in linux as well | 14:39 |
| Lemminkainen | yes, because it is browser-based | 14:40 |
| Lemminkainen | unless you're trying to get demonstrable quals in the M$ product space to make yourself more eligible for employment, there's no reason to not save yourself the heartbreak by switching to a linux | 14:41 |
| Lemminkainen | at least on a VM basis | 14:41 |
| cpopell | I also have no reason to switch to linux from doing it on the cloud right now. | 14:41 |
| kanzure | "no reason" | 14:41 |
| kanzure | that's a funny one | 14:41 |
| Lemminkainen | cloud9 is cute | 14:42 |
| kanzure | it's annoying | 14:42 |
| Lemminkainen | but not cute like I want to fuck it | 14:42 |
| Lemminkainen | cute like a retarded 3-legged dog humping someone's leg | 14:42 |
| kanzure | why is the 3-legged dog also retarded? | 14:42 |
| Lemminkainen | he got hit on the head pretty hard when he lost his leg | 14:42 |
| kanzure | alright | 14:42 |
| Lemminkainen | he's never been the same since | 14:42 |
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| jrayhawk | /window 4 | 14:44 |
| jrayhawk | whoops | 14:44 |
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| kanzure | "DJ Taucher Presents - Adult Music On DI 050 (March 2014) Recorded Live from Schaeller Schaffhausen Part 2" | 15:06 |
| kanzure | what makes music adult? | 15:06 |
| cpopell | it's 18 years old? | 15:06 |
| kanzure | doesn't sound like it? http://pub5.di.fm/di_progressive_aac?type=.flv | 15:07 |
| kanzure | ew now it's gross | 15:08 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: do you still have contact with langton labs? | 15:08 |
| kanzure | you never really escape langton | 15:08 |
| nmz787_i | me and 3 friends need a place to stay during makerfaire, we could grab a motel room but we'd like reduce costs if possible | 15:09 |
| kanzure | langton juvenile subversion-correctional facility | 15:09 |
| nmz787_i | also if anyone here is local to Portland OR area and knows Cadence Allegro and Python and wants a job, send your resume my way | 15:10 |
| kanzure | is that allegro the 2d framework | 15:11 |
| nmz787_i | umm, PCB layout | 15:11 |
| nmz787_i | which I guess is layers of 2D | 15:11 |
| kanzure | nah different thing | 15:11 |
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| eudoxia | "subversion-correctional facility" sounds like the name of a git bootcamp | 15:16 |
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| kanzure | singularity 1987: the disco http://www.tampabay.com/resources/images/dti/rendered/2012/12/lat_disco1_120912_251011a_8col.jpg | 15:27 |
| kanzure | at least, that's what i think they were like | 15:27 |
| kanzure | "extropy" was originally a disco club in the 70s and uh, their mailing list was the only way they could survive | 15:27 |
| kanzure | neato https://github.com/gulpjs/gulp/blob/master/docs/recipes/fast-browserify-builds-with-watchify.md | 15:47 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlQVP6Q9mnY | 16:31 |
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| kanzure | heath: ouch.. https://github.com/marcello3d/gulp-watchify/blob/master/examples/simple/gulpfile.js | 17:04 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, its been too long since I've picked up new mejal | 17:33 |
| delinquentme | but these guys... DESTROY: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIL-vgHNOu0 | 17:33 |
| delinquentme | and its a chick screamer | 17:33 |
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| Lemminkainen | delinquentme is a cartoon character, right? | 17:39 |
| kanzure | more like the dog you take out back to shoot | 17:40 |
| jrayhawk | perhaps you are thinking of Felonious Gru from Despicable Me | 17:40 |
| jrayhawk | but yes, regardless | 17:40 |
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| kanzure | cash-vs-equity compensation proposal https://medium.com/p/12ddebcc63ef | 18:27 |
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| kanzure | https://www.tindie.com/products/gxti/laureline-gps-ntp-server/ | 21:53 |
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| kanzure | there should be software pimped to erowid users for anti-over-dose stuff | 22:16 |
| kanzure | oh right, liability. hrm. | 22:16 |
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| xmj | kanzure: what's erowid? | 22:26 |
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| @ParahSailin | drugs are natures hugs | 22:28 |
| kanzure | erowid is an old cyberpunk magazine that advocated the use of violence in kazakhstan | 22:29 |
| GoatStimulator | lol | 22:30 |
| AshleyWaffle | lol | 22:33 |
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| kanzure | fenn: how about pulling a technology tree out of patent citation graph data | 22:50 |
| kanzure | i feel bad for even thinking that | 22:51 |
| Lemminkainen | kanzure that bad thought will make cpopell very, very hard | 22:52 |
| kanzure | i regret everything | 22:52 |
| kanzure | is there any way to prevent him from seeing that | 22:52 |
| Lemminkainen | you could kick him for a while | 22:53 |
| kanzure | too suspicious | 22:53 |
| kanzure | also doesn't delete his backlog | 22:54 |
| Lemminkainen | I regret my complicity in this | 22:56 |
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| xentrac | kanzure: you should try it | 22:57 |
| xentrac | the tree, I mean, not the kicking | 22:57 |
| kanzure | but the data is probably bogus anyway | 22:58 |
| kanzure | patents aren't about technology, they are about citing as much barely-disqualifying-as-unrelated prior art as possible | 22:58 |
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| xentrac | clearly most of the data is bogus | 23:00 |
| xentrac | the question is whether you can extract anything non-bogus from it | 23:00 |
| xentrac | and you might be able to | 23:01 |
| kanzure | what would be a metric that would tell me it's not bad data? | 23:01 |
| xentrac | maybe you could produce a human-readable result and see if some randomly selected parts of it were correct | 23:03 |
| cpopell | I was corresponding with the people working on tech forecasting via patent citation graph data. | 23:06 |
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| xentrac | how does that work? | 23:07 |
| cpopell | http://arxiv.org/pdf/1206.3933.pdf this was an earlier paper on it | 23:08 |
| xentrac | that looks pretty awesome actually | 23:09 |
| xentrac | it looks like it would work a lot better for mapping out past technological dependencies than for forecasting future development | 23:10 |
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| cpopell | apparently they've had some success | 23:10 |
| xentrac | although admittedly I've only spent <3 minutes reading it while distractedly reading xoJane articles about miscarriages and losing virginity | 23:11 |
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| xmj | not surprising, getting distracted while reading crap | 23:43 |
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| QuantumG | "developing technology" has a lot to do with funding and token efforts at patent filing is a good predictor of commercial funding I expect. | 23:46 |
| -!- kyknos_ [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:49 | |
| -!- kyknos__ [~kyknos@89.233.130.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 23:53 | |
| --- Log closed Tue Apr 22 00:00:47 2014 | ||
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