| --- Log opened Tue Apr 22 00:00:47 2014 | ||
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| chris_99 | paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10708-013-9516-8 | 02:36 |
|---|---|---|
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/The%20real-time%20city%3F%20Big%20data%20and%20smart%20urbanism.pdf | 02:36 |
| chris_99 | merci paperbot | 02:36 |
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| heath | kanzure, bkero, jrayhawk, ParahSailin: do you all use vagrant? | 08:10 |
| @ParahSailin | no | 08:10 |
| eudoxia | fwiw i use it :x | 08:11 |
| heath | eudoxia: link? | 08:11 |
| eudoxia | you mean to a git repo that uses it? | 08:11 |
| mosasaur | whoosh | 08:11 |
| heath | oh, no, i misread that as "i use :x" | 08:12 |
| eudoxia | oh haha | 08:13 |
| kanzure | yes i use vagrant sometimes | 08:14 |
| heath | What I don't have a grasp on is switching from one project to the next with vagrant. I think you want to create a new vm per project, but I'm not sure if that's entirely accurate | 08:16 |
| eudoxia | one project = one vagrant vm | 08:17 |
| eudoxia | or more than one | 08:17 |
| kanzure | might as well use lxc | 08:19 |
| heath | i just got through using vagrant for an app, but now i have a new project to work on and i'm not wanting to go through the manual installation process.. | 08:19 |
| kanzure | i use one packer template/defintion per project | 08:19 |
| heath | yeah, multiple vms sounds like a terrible idea | 08:19 |
| kanzure | and then i build a vagrant box if i need to, or a docker container, or an ec2 image, or whatever | 08:19 |
| kanzure | this way i don't need to store 10000 vagrant boxes on my hdd | 08:20 |
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| ryankarason | --3 | 08:23 |
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| kanzure | do monks have specific locations on their heads that they hit regularly, or is it just general forehead/wood bashing | 08:43 |
| mosasaur | only when they seem to doze off | 08:44 |
| kanzure | "80% of Technical Information is Found Only in Patents" http://www.patinformatics.com/blog/revisiting-an-old-standard-80-of-technical-information-is-found-only-in-patents/ | 08:47 |
| kanzure | "The origins of this particular statistic date back to the late ‘70s, and for the most part patent practitioners have taken this as a given since the. If this is the case, has anyone actually looked at this question recently and determined if it is still true? In order to revisit this statistic I studied the patented substances indexed by the Chemical Abstracts Service (CAS). The patenting of chemical substances represents a reasonable ... | 08:47 |
| kanzure | ... percentage of the technologies covered by the world’s patenting authorities, and thus represents a good collection to study to determine how often technologies mentioned in patents are never mentioned elsewhere." | 08:47 |
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| jrayhawk | i don't even know what vagrant does | 09:10 |
| jrayhawk | i use qemu and lxc and vservers a lot | 09:11 |
| jrayhawk | i should probably learn to use openvz since they have cooler stuff than the vserver project does | 09:11 |
| jrayhawk | i have previously used virtualbox but i was generally fairly unimpressed with it and i am not clear on what purpose vagrant serves with regards to it | 09:13 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: vagrant supports a number of other backends other than virtualbox | 09:34 |
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| jrayhawk | well, i suppose it would be easy to make something less terrible than libvirt | 09:38 |
| jrayhawk | i am not super clear on why anyone uses libvirt either | 09:38 |
| kanzure | vagrant is often used for distributing .box files with a vm inside | 09:39 |
| kanzure | since nobody knows how to use chroots etc | 09:39 |
| chris_99 | i was trying to use libvirt until i found it doesn't support kvm's -snapshot mode | 09:39 |
| jrayhawk | libvirt seems like a "14 competing standards? ridiculous! we need to develop one universal standard that covers everyone's use cases." sort of boondoggle | 09:42 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: http://docs.vagrantup.com/v2/why-vagrant/index.html http://vagrantbox.es/ | 09:43 |
| jrayhawk | this is the sort of situation that makes me want to start up a troll project | 09:52 |
| kanzure | what would it look like? | 09:53 |
| jrayhawk | "gosh, there are so many version control systems and they're so hard for developers; let's make version control meta-tool that makes a unified and universal workflow for developers" | 09:53 |
| kanzure | you can call it version nexus | 09:54 |
| mosasaur | Some database formats have been commoditized to plugin status, some people tried it with GUI frameworks too. | 09:56 |
| ThomasEgi | jrayhawk, http://xkcd.com/927/ as you desired | 09:56 |
| kanzure | i don't think he actually desired that | 09:57 |
| kanzure | plus, it's a very old/common saying | 09:57 |
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| jrayhawk | the comical thing is a PC disk image or a filesystem snapshot is something that is well understood and can be managed with a wide variety of tools, both standard and specialized | 10:02 |
| jrayhawk | instead we get a box file | 10:02 |
| jrayhawk | because "simplicity???" | 10:02 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: getting everyone on a team on the same page in terms of development VMs or environments has been one of my number one problems i keep running into | 10:14 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: the easiest thing for me to do would be to deploy remote boxes on ec2 or whatever, but the problem is that you immediately give up all of the advantages of local development | 10:14 |
| kanzure | and then there's a herd of people that keep insisting on osx | 10:14 |
| kanzure | and sometimes even windows ("because that's what my laptop runs, duh") | 10:15 |
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| bkero | heath: no. I use lxc. | 10:37 |
| bkero | virtualbox is awful | 10:37 |
| chris_99 | theres always kvm ;) | 10:38 |
| kanzure | vagrant does lxc things though | 10:38 |
| kanzure | and kvm things | 10:38 |
| bkero | wut | 10:38 |
| kanzure | yeah.. | 10:38 |
| bkero | vagrant doesn't do reparenting of processes like lxc does | 10:38 |
| bkero | or running the guest off the same filesystem | 10:38 |
| bkero | or have real networking | 10:38 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/fgrehm/vagrant-lxc | 10:38 |
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| bkero | Yeah, those sorts of things have existed for a while. afaict none of them are actually complete or on parity with virtualbox. | 10:39 |
| kanzure | well it's not like anyone recommends virtualbox | 10:39 |
| @ParahSailin | is the virtualbox ko still considered taint due to shitty programmering? | 10:40 |
| bkero | yes | 10:40 |
| FourFire | So, what's the opinion in here of "AI-Box" ? | 10:42 |
| kanzure | not interesting | 10:43 |
| kanzure | suppose there is an ai on earth | 10:43 |
| kanzure | does it really matter if it was originally in a box or not? | 10:43 |
| @ParahSailin | would you let the basilisk out of the ai box? | 10:44 |
| kanzure | even if i don't, that doesn't mean that everyone else wont | 10:45 |
| kanzure | and it also doesn't mean that an ai wont show up that wasn't constrained to such a "box" originally | 10:45 |
| chris_99 | i'm curious about the transcripts for that ai box thing | 10:49 |
| eudoxia | i'm curious about the transcripts when eliezer did it | 10:49 |
| chris_99 | i'm betting it involves some kind of blackmail | 10:52 |
| eudoxia | i assumed they were just conspiring | 10:53 |
| eudoxia | to help eliezer's image during the cult-buildind satge | 10:54 |
| eudoxia | stage* | 10:54 |
| chris_99 | oh heh | 10:54 |
| cpopell | eudoxia: it's been done between pairs of people who aren't Eliezer | 11:01 |
| cpopell | I generally think LW-ers are among the worst people to play the AI-box game as guardians | 11:02 |
| cpopell | they're already predisposed to wanting FAI | 11:02 |
| eudoxia | 'will you give me a pony?' | 11:02 |
| cpopell | not quite | 11:02 |
| chris_99 | cpopell, are there transcripts of those | 11:03 |
| cpopell | chris_99: you'll have to ask around for them | 11:03 |
| eudoxia | there are public ones i think | 11:04 |
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| chris_99 | http://lesswrong.com/lw/9ld/ai_box_log/ seems er, dubious | 11:07 |
| justanotheruser | http://www.coindesk.com/airbitz-wins-toronto-bitcoin-expo-hackathon-darkmarket/ | 11:08 |
| eudoxia | that's the one | 11:08 |
| kanzure | interesting points about an ETF http://www.thisismadness.eu/bitcoin/5-reasons-why-a-bitcoin-etf-is-a-bad-idea/ | 11:09 |
| chris_99 | oh i misread the outcome sorry | 11:09 |
| xentrac | eudoxia: are you saying the cult-building stage is over? why? | 11:14 |
| eudoxia | xentrac: hm, maybe just critical, early cult building | 11:15 |
| FourFire | chris_99, well we might find out about that, later | 11:18 |
| FourFire | eudoxia, I'm not sure that it's part of "cult building" | 11:19 |
| chris_99 | what reason would there be for not publishing the transcripts | 11:19 |
| FourFire | chris_99, there are transcripts of some people who are not EY doing AI-Box, but the ones I've seen aren't all that interesting | 11:20 |
| chris_99 | nah i'm talking about the original ones | 11:20 |
| FourFire | chris_99, lose your strategy "I would never fall for that!" when it's tailored to your specific opponent | 11:20 |
| FourFire | or, maybe, yeah it is tied to blackmail, and neither party wants it to get out | 11:21 |
| FourFire | others have claimed that the logs themselves can be used as blackmail, since emotional or character weaknesses can be exposed during the intense 2 hour (or longer) period | 11:21 |
| FourFire | people might say... morally reprehensible things, if money is at stake | 11:22 |
| FourFire | the is a few reasons, if you think about it for a bit, actually. | 11:23 |
| eudoxia | 'intense 2 hour period' god it's a thought experiment not a war | 11:23 |
| eudoxia | this is what eliezer wants you to believeeeeee | 11:23 |
| xentrac | if we take the extreme perspective | 11:23 |
| xentrac | an UFAI would find the transcripts useful for exiting the box | 11:24 |
| FourFire | eudoxia, I'm unsure whether two people pitting their minds up against eachother should be shoved aside so easily | 11:24 |
| chris_99 | eudoxia, heh, two hours on a computer! this is madness! | 11:24 |
| kanzure | what's the purpose of the ai box experiment? | 11:24 |
| kanzure | or the thought experiment, rather | 11:25 |
| xentrac | kanzure: to persuade people that FAI is necessary | 11:25 |
| chris_99 | FAI? | 11:25 |
| xentrac | "friendly AI" | 11:25 |
| kanzure | wow, really? | 11:25 |
| FourFire | though, eudoxia having said that, I would be interested in doing the AI-Box experiment with EY as the AI | 11:25 |
| kanzure | i would have guessed another reason entirely | 11:25 |
| xentrac | what's your reason? | 11:25 |
| kanzure | well, i don't have one, which is why i asked | 11:25 |
| xentrac | chris_99: an Eliezer term meaning "AGI whose interests are aligned with those of humanity" | 11:25 |
| xentrac | oh | 11:25 |
| kanzure | but it would not have been "because it demonstrates that ai will kill you" | 11:25 |
| FourFire | of course, I'm poor, so I'd never be able to afford his time, and there are much much better things to spend both time and money on | 11:26 |
| kanzure | "it's just a text stream, it's not going to convert me into computronium" | 11:26 |
| xentrac | kanzure: it seems to me that one of the major objections to FAI is that it's unnecessary because we can keep UFAIs safely boxed up; just as you said: "it's just a text stream, it's not going to convert me into computronium" | 11:27 |
| FourFire | kanzure, the problem with that statement is, that as far as I know, at least three people, with monetary stakes, have had their minds changed during the experiment | 11:27 |
| kanzure | like, aren't there much simpler ways to argue that ai will kill you, other than "ai box experiment"? | 11:27 |
| xentrac | and the purpose of the experiment is to persuade people that in fact a text stream is sufficient to, effectively, convert you into computronium | 11:27 |
| kanzure | FourFire: what do you mean? they suddenly decide that ai wont kill them, because it's text? | 11:27 |
| FourFire | the thought experiment was proposed in order to determine whether humans can be hacked by humans | 11:27 |
| FourFire | and if they can, then it can be assumed that they certainly can be hacked by an AGI | 11:28 |
| kanzure | of course humans can be hacked by humans. we can even get "hacked" by metal rods being shot through your skull. | 11:28 |
| xentrac | right | 11:28 |
| xentrac | mmmm, metal rods :) | 11:28 |
| FourFire | regardless of whether it was a F or uF AI | 11:28 |
| @ParahSailin | the basilisk is actually a FAI | 11:28 |
| kanzure | i still don't see why the thought experiment is necessary | 11:28 |
| catern | the AI box stuff is just an argument against people who think we can prevent AI being dangerous by just sticking it in a box | 11:29 |
| FourFire | hacked... by a text stream in an IRC window | 11:29 |
| FourFire | ^ | 11:29 |
| xentrac | ParahSailin: haha | 11:29 |
| kanzure | irc can fuck you up | 11:29 |
| kanzure | i used to be a young school girl | 11:29 |
| kanzure | look at me now | 11:29 |
| xentrac | you're all wrinkly | 11:29 |
| FourFire | uhh | 11:29 |
| FourFire | I can't see you | 11:29 |
| catern | there are people who think that all you need to do for FAI is box the AI, so the purpose of AI box experiment stuff is to counter them | 11:30 |
| kanzure | anyway, the box experiment seems to have some other problems with it too | 11:30 |
| kanzure | suppose that you really did have an ai in a box | 11:30 |
| kanzure | why is it that only one person accesses the box? | 11:30 |
| kanzure | okay. | 11:31 |
| kanzure | well anyway, it's stupid | 11:31 |
| kanzure | one side of the argument is saying "it's an unstoppable bullet by definition" and the other side is going "i don't accept your definition, so therefore it is stoppable" | 11:31 |
| cpopell | iirc Tuxedage has made 2 grand off of it. | 11:31 |
| cpopell | as the AI. | 11:31 |
| FourFire | kanzure, no, the people decided to let their opponent "out of the box" after having resolved to, and bet money on, not let them out | 11:31 |
| cpopell | convincing gatekeepers to let people out | 11:31 |
| cpopell | *let him out | 11:32 |
| eudoxia | ugh how do people even | 11:32 |
| FourFire | these are people who lost money, so it's unlikely that they were just doing it for lols | 11:32 |
| kanzure | and, even if you do have an ai in a box, what happens to all the other ai on the planet or in the galaxy | 11:32 |
| cpopell | eudoxia: like I said, I don't think people who do LW are great gatekeepers | 11:32 |
| eudoxia | how do we know money actually changed hands though? | 11:33 |
| eudoxia | federal reserve notes don't have a blockchain | 11:33 |
| cpopell | eudoxia: I don't think they care -that much- about falsifying this | 11:33 |
| eudoxia | hm yeah i should drop the tinfoil for a while | 11:33 |
| FourFire | if they're covering up, they were still convinced to cover up | 11:34 |
| FourFire | there's an amount of reputation at stake here as well | 11:34 |
| cpopell | eudoxia: you can always just ask Tuxedage | 11:34 |
| FourFire | kanzure, it's not a thought experiment for determining whether we can stop AI by keeping it in a box. | 11:35 |
| FourFire | It's a thought experiment to test whether humans can be hacked | 11:36 |
| kanzure | you don't need ai to determine whether or not humans can be hacked | 11:36 |
| catern | i think it's actually neither of those | 11:36 |
| chris_99 | what do you think it is catern | 11:36 |
| FourFire | and, the context for why humans are being hacked, is a super intelligent AI, being boxed | 11:36 |
| catern | because it's obviously true to anyone with sense that you can't stop AI by keeping it in a box, and it's obviously true that humans can be hacked, | 11:36 |
| catern | but some people are dense and don't know this | 11:37 |
| catern | so the AI box stuff is just stating the obvious for their benefit | 11:37 |
| FourFire | the experiment is to provide data, which might convince such stubborn people | 11:37 |
| catern | yeah, and that | 11:37 |
| FourFire | (or prove them right all along) | 11:37 |
| kanzure | well that's really boring | 11:37 |
| catern | yes | 11:37 |
| catern | it's not aimed at you | 11:38 |
| cpopell | alternately it's a decent way to figure out who's susceptible to being talked out of things like that | 11:38 |
| archels | https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/openworm/openworm-a-digital-organism-in-your-browser | 11:45 |
| archels | looks professional | 11:45 |
| kanzure | "you can get all these stickers! because science." | 11:45 |
| archels | godspeed. | 11:45 |
| kanzure | it will be interesting to see if they meet their funding goal | 11:46 |
| FourFire | gudsped | 11:46 |
| kanzure | because they didn't donate to themselves | 11:46 |
| kanzure | e.g. usually kickstarter projects have a 10-30% completion rate in the first hour because they just give themselves their own money | 11:46 |
| kanzure | (which did not happen) | 11:47 |
| kanzure | nothing like some propaganda though https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/910/103/be54723725f6f3cd8cf05e4639ae98ec_large.jpg?1398156892 | 11:47 |
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| eudoxia | https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/001/881/814/7e8b26b817d087dca308f203ada09127_large.png?1397568588 | 11:48 |
| archels | yeah, cute | 11:48 |
| eudoxia | "let me be" lol | 11:48 |
| justanotheruser | Interesting. So I could just make a kick starter, fund myself completely and then I would have a little hype behind me | 11:49 |
| justanotheruser | I assume funding yourself is against the ToS? | 11:49 |
| archels | eudoxia: tamagotchi 2.0 | 11:49 |
| @ParahSailin | what is this open worm stuff anyway, is it somehow attempting to simulate every cell of worm? | 11:49 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: nope, as far as i know they are happy to take a % of your money | 11:49 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: but most of the time people only fund 10-20% of their project on their own, to make it look like there's momentum | 11:50 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: (this helps users not feel like idiots when donating) | 11:50 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: I see... | 11:50 |
| archels | ParahSailin: not every cell, but every neuron and muscle at least. the rest is point-and-stick mechanics, afaik | 11:50 |
| kanzure | they have been around for a while | 11:51 |
| kanzure | too bad they keep doing those google hangouts :( | 11:51 |
| kanzure | what happened to their irc channel. did they just decide irc was too old school for them? | 11:51 |
| chris_99 | heh | 11:51 |
| archels | ParahSailin: not sure what the 'let me be' adds, there | 11:52 |
| kanzure | 11:27 < petertodd> amiller: reminds me of a much simplier idea I had: have OpenPGP WoT edges be based on what you believed the cost would be for an adversary to fool you into signing the wrong key | 11:52 |
| @ParahSailin | did i whups somewhere | 11:52 |
| kanzure | nope, it wasn't you | 11:53 |
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| justanotheruser | kanzure: you following amiller in -wizards? Its pretty interesting | 11:59 |
| xentrac | http://www.amazon.com/1000m-Dyneema-Strong-Braided-Fishing/dp/B009665S24/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1398193369&sr=8-3&keywords=dyneema occurred to me reading Tim Bray's blog post about a fallen tree | 12:07 |
| xentrac | https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2014/04/17/Postmodern-Repairs a tree fell on his house and smashed part of it | 12:07 |
| catern | justanotheruser: -wizards? | 12:08 |
| justanotheruser | catern: #bitcoin-wizards | 12:08 |
| catern | ah, should have guessed | 12:09 |
| FourFire | looking back at the logs of one time I ran AI-Box, as the gatekeeper | 12:09 |
| FourFire | the poor AI was getting trolled pretty hard | 12:09 |
| xentrac | it seems like you could quite reasonably string a Dyneema net over your roof to protect it from falling tree branches | 12:10 |
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| delinquentme | ParahSailin, kanzure is reselling ecm a decent idea? Or am I just enamored w the slight macabre and the thought that it would be a good financial vessle into working into human applications | 12:16 |
| delinquentme | ? | 12:16 |
| @ParahSailin | wut | 12:16 |
| delinquentme | like from what I can tell its a pretty straight forward operation ... and all I need is a HPLC | 12:16 |
| @ParahSailin | if it keeps you busy, im all for it | 12:17 |
| chris_99 | Electronic countermeasure? | 12:17 |
| delinquentme | ParahSailin, per yesterday Ive been looking at decellularizaing simple organs for research purposes and selling freeze dried ecm powder | 12:17 |
| delinquentme | Extracellular matrix :D | 12:17 |
| @ParahSailin | whats that rodent cell line that secretes good ecm | 12:18 |
| @ParahSailin | ehs sarcoma | 12:19 |
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| delinquentme | so if I run this pulverized + suspended ecm gel through a HPLC ... the source animal shouldn't matter right? | 12:33 |
| delinquentme | And I have no idea how to setup the HPLC to select out the ECM material | 12:34 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: why is it even called high-performance anyway | 12:34 |
| kanzure | the super duper plasma chromatography mcahine (SDPC) | 12:35 |
| @ParahSailin | hewlett packard was first to market the machine | 12:35 |
| kanzure | i'm going with superduper from now on | 12:35 |
| @ParahSailin | high performance was a backronym | 12:35 |
| kanzure | aha | 12:35 |
| delinquentme | http://www.pnas.org/content/84/20/7109.full.pdf | 12:36 |
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| delinquentme | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extracellular_matrix#Molecular_components | 12:38 |
| delinquentme | BAM! | 12:38 |
| delinquentme | #internet! | 12:38 |
| @ParahSailin | er | 12:38 |
| @ParahSailin | not sure what you're trying to say | 12:38 |
| @ParahSailin | that you've mastered search engines for yourself now and dont need to ask so many easily googled questions here? | 12:39 |
| delinquentme | paperbot, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15482831 | 12:40 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016%2Fj.biomaterials.2004.04.042 | 12:40 |
| cpopell | kanzure: you were discussing technical debt the other day, right? | 12:41 |
| delinquentme | ParahSailin, one day we're gonna hug it out | 12:41 |
| kanzure | cpopell: what of it | 12:41 |
| delinquentme | a few trustfalls later and we'll be skipping through the fields | 12:41 |
| cpopell | oh, just came across a 2013 talk by Steve McConnell on technical debt | 12:41 |
| cpopell | or, his slides at least | 12:41 |
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| AshleyWaffle | Hey everyone, I'm starting the first episode of my libertarian transhumanist podcast today in 1 hour and 30 minutes. Please contact me if you are interested in joining in. | 12:54 |
| cpopell | Link a script. | 12:55 |
| cpopell | or, topic list. | 12:55 |
| cpopell | I'm skeptical. | 12:55 |
| @ParahSailin | you believe in free will? | 12:57 |
| cpopell | who are you addressing? | 12:57 |
| justanotheruser | I'm starting the first episode of my statist primoanarchist podcast today what a coincidence | 12:57 |
| @ParahSailin | libertarian | 12:58 |
| cyberman | i though podcasts would have been one of those things that would have died a long time ago | 13:00 |
| cpopell | instead they've only grown! | 13:00 |
| cyberman | whats the roi these days | 13:00 |
| justanotheruser | -1% | 13:01 |
| cyberman | figures | 13:01 |
| cyberman | prolyl why i got out | 13:01 |
| justanotheruser | That was a made up number | 13:01 |
| cyberman | too much like a job i wasnt getting paid for | 13:02 |
| cpopell | cyberman: generally you have to be an expert in a given field already, or a celebrity, and you increase your branding. | 13:02 |
| cyberman | end up plugging sponsors | 13:02 |
| cyberman | and selling adspace | 13:03 |
| cpopell | mostly ads, from what I've seen | 13:03 |
| cpopell | and merch | 13:03 |
| cyberman | swag | 13:03 |
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| AshleyWaffle | just using google hangouts instead | 13:06 |
| kanzure | gross | 13:07 |
| justanotheruser | ^ | 13:07 |
| AshleyWaffle | lol | 13:07 |
| AshleyWaffle | just for first episode | 13:07 |
| AshleyWaffle | I will be on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no1pxcvK8hw | 13:10 |
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| kanzure | http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/63676/discuss ""Attackers can exploit this issue to bypass Address Space Layout Randomization (ASLR) protection mechanisms of applications. This may aid in further attacks that may lead to arbitrary code execution." | 13:25 |
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| kanzure | https://www.facebook.com/andrea.kuszewski/posts/10203765603640037?comment_id=8534877 | 13:28 |
| kanzure | "The frequency and scale of cyber-attacks against commercial and government interests has increased dramatically. Massive troves of classified government documents have become public through the actions of a few. Yet we have not seen significant growth in the illegal sharing of peer-reviewed academic articles. Should we truly expect that biomedical publishing is somehow at less risk than other content-generating industries? What of the larger ... | 13:28 |
| kanzure | ... threat—a “Biblioleaks” event—a database breach and public leak of the substantial archives of biomedical literature?" | 13:28 |
| kanzure | hahaha | 13:28 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.jmir.org/2014/4/e112/ | 13:28 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/77c2fe55ae949ec1c5d0b1757fcb1b99.txt | 13:28 |
| kanzure | aww | 13:28 |
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| delinquentme | AshleyWaffle, so peter thiel is calling in? | 13:39 |
| AshleyWaffle | wait what!? | 13:40 |
| delinquentme | ^ | 13:40 |
| AshleyWaffle | I don't know about that but there's a good chance Adam Kokesh is | 13:40 |
| delinquentme | thats what the bio on the page says? | 13:40 |
| delinquentme | thats cool | 13:40 |
| AshleyWaffle | what? | 13:41 |
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| xentrac | 15:53 < cpopell> Link a script. | 13:59 |
| xentrac | 15:53 < cpopell> or, topic list. | 13:59 |
| xentrac | 15:53 < cpopell> I'm skeptical. | 13:59 |
| xentrac | 15:55 <@ParahSailin> you believe in free will? | 13:59 |
| xentrac | of course I believe in the free list | 13:59 |
| xentrac | I mean, malloc works, right? | 13:59 |
| xentrac | oh wait | 13:59 |
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| andytoshi | hey guys, this has been bugging me, what if you uploaded a consciousness and then applied program obfuscation http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/451 to it, so that it'd be functionally identical but the source becomes opaque, wolud it still be conscious? the obfuscation in that paper works by representing the conscious circuit as a series of branching 5x5 matrices, then basically evaluating each matrix in a | 14:29 |
| andytoshi | random basis and evaluating the output in the composition of all basis changes | 14:29 |
| kanzure | one solution to consciousness is to consider maybe it doesn't exist | 14:29 |
| kanzure | suppose that you have a whole brain emulation that works | 14:29 |
| andytoshi | so it seems like the person could not be conscious because he doesn't have the priviledged view into his own working (since he doesn't know the random bases) | 14:30 |
| kanzure | let's also say that it's accurate and it works correctly | 14:30 |
| kanzure | but it does not possess consciousness (as a definition of the scenario)- is this to bad? | 14:30 |
| kanzure | *is this so bad? | 14:30 |
| andytoshi | but the I/O behaviour means that he'll still talk about being conscious and stuff. so isn't this a chalmers zombie? | 14:30 |
| andytoshi | kanzure: the problem i have is that a philosophical zombie seems like an incoherent idea to me | 14:30 |
| kanzure | and of course by emulation i refer to the type discussed here: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/brain-emulation-roadmap-report.pdf | 14:30 |
| kanzure | andytoshi: elaborate? | 14:31 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/451 | 14:31 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Candidate%20Indistinguishability%20Obfuscation%20and%20Functional%20Encryption%20for%20all%20circuits.pdf | 14:31 |
| andytoshi | the link i posted was free :) | 14:31 |
| kanzure | at this point it's often easier to use paperbot than check | 14:31 |
| andytoshi | one sec, i'll find an article by eli yudkowskey on philosophical zombies, i don't have much to say beyond that.. | 14:31 |
| QuantumG | wait, someone actually discussing transhumanism on ##hplusroadmap? | 14:32 |
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| andytoshi | ok, it's super long, sorry | 14:32 |
| andytoshi | http://lesswrong.com/lw/p7/zombies_zombies/ | 14:32 |
| kanzure | andytoshi: just to be clear upfront, i don't think i'm conscious | 14:32 |
| jrayhawk | i am sure they'll be banned soon enough | 14:32 |
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| kanzure | or rather, i don't think i have consciousness. (i am certainly in the medically-defined conscious state, of course. responsive, aware, communicative.) | 14:33 |
| andytoshi | kanzure: well, i think i'm conscious, it sure seems to me that there's a 'view' i have of the world that others don't | 14:33 |
| kanzure | and are you claiming that this view does or does not correspond to emulatable state in your head-matter? | 14:33 |
| QuantumG | you don't think you have a poorly defined term? | 14:33 |
| andytoshi | i'm claiming it does | 14:33 |
| jrayhawk | if you're not self-aware of how self-aware you are, then... | 14:34 |
| andytoshi | does correspond to an emulatable state* | 14:34 |
| jrayhawk | or, rather, if you're not self-aware that you're self-aware, then... greetings mister epimedes | 14:34 |
| QuantumG | there was that "recent" mathematical definition of consciousness.. that is basically useless | 14:34 |
| kanzure | so you're asking if a brain emulation is still a brain emulation, even if it's not identical to the original source data/matter? | 14:34 |
| andytoshi | i think consciousness is real, it's a purely physical phenomenon (otherwise i couldn't be talking about it on the physical IRC could i?), and running by brain in a sim is sufficient to acheive that consciousness | 14:35 |
| andytoshi | worse than that, i'm ok with "not identical" | 14:35 |
| andytoshi | in this case it's "obfuscated so that you cannot see any subset of the code, only the input/output behaviour of the whole thing" | 14:35 |
| kanzure | then i don't know what you're asking anymore | 14:35 |
| andytoshi | on p18 on that eprint.iacr.org paper, the security assumption for obfuscation is described, it is that if you fix any subset of your inputs, at attacker can't tell which subset except by inferring it from the circuit's output | 14:38 |
| andytoshi | so if your input is a conscious circuit, which you are inputting to a universal circuit… | 14:39 |
| andytoshi | …then you shouldn't be able to distinguish the conscious circuit with one where you've replaced any subset of its code with an obviously non-conscious functionally identical code | 14:40 |
| QuantumG | I'm pretty sure I could design an algorithm to predict the distance of the nearest bong from an in-use keyboard from its output. | 14:40 |
| kanzure | if it's functionally identical then what difference does conscious and non-conscious confer | 14:41 |
| andytoshi | none, except to the conscious person itself, which has an 'inside view' which does not appear in its output | 14:41 |
| kanzure | many systems (other than people) have internal state | 14:42 |
| andytoshi | sure, and obfuscation makes this state inaccessible (that is, indistinguishable from random) except where it appears in the program's output | 14:43 |
| andytoshi | so it seems to me that this is a construction of a p-zombie, it'll talk about consciousness just like a normal person but there's nothing but noise happening inside | 14:45 |
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| kanzure | actual noise would, to me, suggest that all output would be noise or random, but clearly you could have zombies or non-human systems that are not producing random output but instead text without having a completely-noisy internal system | 14:46 |
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| andytoshi | well, in e.g. shamir secret sharing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamir%27s_Secret_Sharing you can encrypt some data with a secret, and the encrypted data can be anything since the secret can be anything. then you split the secret up among N parties, and if M of them combine their pieces they can reconstruct the secret | 14:50 |
| andytoshi | but even with (M-1) people participating the secret can still be anything, no information is gained | 14:51 |
| andytoshi | so the secret is completely unknown and the encrypted text will be 'noise' in the sense that you can't distinguish it from random, until a critical mass of participants get togethr | 14:52 |
| pasky | and what does that have to do with consciousness? | 14:53 |
| andytoshi | pasky: because you can use the construction in http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/451 to turn a consciousness into noise, throw away the secret data, and it'll still appear to all outside observers to be conscious because it'll act exactly the same way | 14:54 |
| pasky | but why would I do that? | 14:54 |
| pasky | maybe I should've read more backlog than up to 23:45 | 14:54 |
| andytoshi | it's a thought experiment, you do it to learn about the nature of consciousness | 14:54 |
| pasky | I guess that's the point I'm missing, what does this have to do with the nature of consciousness | 14:55 |
| pasky | I can do this with an ELF binary | 14:55 |
| pasky | will that tell me something about the nature of the ELF binary? | 14:55 |
| andytoshi | pasky: sure, and if you do it to an ELF binary which, say, decrypts some data by using a secret key, the obfuscated ELF binary will still decrypt the data but you won't be able to get the key from it in any way | 14:56 |
| andytoshi | so you haven't changed its functional behaviour at all but you have changed the way that it achieves that behaviour, to a way that you can't break apart or partially evaluate | 14:56 |
| kanzure | and your point about consciousness is then something about andytoshi_neurons.exe..? | 14:57 |
| andytoshi | ya | 14:57 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: any preference for XML to python dict lib? I like the sound of https://github.com/martinblech/xmltodict and maybe http://www.picklingtools.com/html/xmldoc.html | 14:57 |
| andytoshi | if that program had an inner view of its workings, that inner view is destroyed by the obfuscation, but it will -still talk- about having an inner view | 14:57 |
| kanzure | nmz787_i: probably lxml | 14:57 |
| QuantumG | I don't think it is | 14:58 |
| pasky | andytoshi: will it? | 14:58 |
| kanzure | inner view meaning, access to ram whil erunning? | 14:58 |
| kanzure | *while | 14:58 |
| pasky | andytoshi: let's say it's implemented in a language that supports introspectoin | 14:58 |
| andytoshi | kanzure: inner view meaning, whatever it is that people refer to by qualia | 14:58 |
| pasky | (I think all programs using introspection are self-aware to a degree ;) | 14:58 |
| pasky | andytoshi: if it's still performing the expected function, I think the view via introspection should still be the same, right? | 14:59 |
| pasky | or I'm not following your argument | 14:59 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: i feel like the output of that is quite ugly compare to the two libs i sent | 14:59 |
| andytoshi | pasky: if you can access the program's introspection by giving it appropriate input, it'll still give exactly the same output | 14:59 |
| kanzure | nmz787_i: you can use python -mjson.tool to make json less ugly? | 14:59 |
| QuantumG | obfuscation is defined as changing a program so it is hard for someone trying to read the code to understand, *without* changing the function of the program. If "reflection" is a required function of the program, obfuscation can't change that, or it's not obfuscation. | 14:59 |
| andytoshi | but it'll be lying, just like a p-zombie is lying when it says that it's conscious | 14:59 |
| andytoshi | QuantumG: there is a definition of obfuscation in the paper i linked | 15:00 |
| QuantumG | I don't care about your paper | 15:00 |
| kanzure | ouch | 15:00 |
| andytoshi | lol | 15:00 |
| andytoshi | QuantumG: it means given two functionally identical circuits, a computationally bounded attacker cannot distinguish between their obfuscations | 15:00 |
| QuantumG | having worked on software obfuscation for decades, I think I know a little better than some paper you found on the internet | 15:01 |
| pasky | andytoshi: okay, in that case, I don't think it actually *matters*; the program thinks it's working in a particular way, everyone else thinks it's working in a particular way, it is *working*, so why care? | 15:01 |
| pasky | maybe I'm thinking by my guts instead of my brain, I don't care as long as I continue thinking | 15:02 |
| kanzure | brainguts | 15:02 |
| andytoshi | QuantumG: having actually worked on that paper, i think i know a little better than you what i'm talking about | 15:03 |
| QuantumG | the whole p-zombie nonsense is supposed to make you question the external observation equivalence hypothesis. | 15:03 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: to be fair, i haven't seen anything about circuit analysis from you w.r.t obfuscation, but i have seen various reverse engineering things. | 15:03 |
| QuantumG | andytoshi: great, did you actually ask anyone who works on program obfuscation before you defined the word? | 15:04 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Candidate%20Indistinguishability%20Obfuscation%20and%20Functional%20Encryption%20for%20all%20circuits.pdf | 15:04 |
| QuantumG | cause, ya know, I can see where your definition is going but it misses some important concepts. | 15:04 |
| pasky | I'm afraid UNIX people never talked to plumbers about defining "pipelines" :( | 15:04 |
| andytoshi | QuantumG: please elaborate | 15:05 |
| QuantumG | anyway, if you want to talk about *your* definition of obfuscation, that's cool.. I just like to know your internal model so I can understand your outputs :) | 15:05 |
| andytoshi | :P | 15:05 |
| nmz787_i | QuantumG: they like to also call that minification | 15:05 |
| nmz787_i | though i guess that might be less obfuscating than a purpose built obfucator | 15:05 |
| andytoshi | QuantumG: i'm curious if you think there's a stronger definition of obfuscation we could be using tho | 15:05 |
| andytoshi | which is not subject to impossibility results | 15:05 |
| QuantumG | you have to define "equivalent programs" | 15:06 |
| QuantumG | (or circuits, no idea why you went with that terminology) | 15:06 |
| nmz787_i | it's all circuits! | 15:06 |
| kanzure | a program is just a graph | 15:06 |
| kanzure | executable graph thing | 15:06 |
| kanzure | directed, probably | 15:06 |
| nmz787_i | you could probably say a circuit is just a graph | 15:06 |
| kanzure | it is | 15:07 |
| QuantumG | it's all just lambda calculus man.. Church-Turing thesis.. where's that bong? | 15:07 |
| nmz787_i | everything is everything | 15:07 |
| nmz787_i | the weather here is crazy | 15:07 |
| kanzure | now you're going too far | 15:07 |
| andytoshi | QuantumG: "equivalent" means identical input/output pairings, i.e. functionally equivalent | 15:07 |
| nmz787_i | backdrop of dark clouds, sunshine in the foreground.... a few minutes ago I saw thunder and it was hailing | 15:08 |
| kanzure | it's very common to study electrical circuits as circuits and graphs, that's not "everything is everything" | 15:08 |
| QuantumG | right, so buried in your definition of equivalent is the answer to your p-zombie conundrum. | 15:08 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: did i show you https://github.com/kanzure/pokecrystal or https://github.com/iimarckus/pokered | 15:09 |
| QuantumG | it goes away as soon as you define your terms, which is why it doesn't happen for philosophers because they refuse to define consciousness so it can yield to rational argument. | 15:09 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: pokered.git contains source code that completely compiles into the original pokemon red game | 15:10 |
| kanzure | (as in, byte-equivalent) | 15:10 |
| QuantumG | I think I saw a youtube video you did in regards to it | 15:10 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: i also did a bunch of asm injection and hacking-by-gadgets https://github.com/kanzure/pokemon-reverse-engineering-tools/blob/vba-automation/pokemontools/vba/vba.py#L206 | 15:10 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: like using known asm to string together malicious programs | 15:11 |
| kanzure | known-asm inside the original rom | 15:11 |
| kanzure | thought you might find that interesting, i forgot about your reverse engineering stuff | 15:12 |
| andytoshi | QuantumG: consciousness is detectable in a brain by looking at the neural activity, but not by, say, talking to someone on IRC. but you should be able to upload a consciousness, define the inputs and outputs entirely through IRC, and still have it be conscious even though you can't detect consciousness over IRC. but then the obfuscation will frag anything which isn't detectable over IRC, creating an | 15:13 |
| andytoshi | IRC zombie | 15:13 |
| QuantumG | I'm not as *keen* on it as I used to be. | 15:13 |
| kanzure | consciousness is not detectable by looking at neural activity | 15:14 |
| andytoshi | this should be true for any definition of consciousness which isn't IRC-detectable, so the philosphers have plenty of room to faff | 15:14 |
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| kanzure | i don't know if there is any form of anything that is not IRC-detectable. you can encode a bunch of information into text.. | 15:15 |
| QuantumG | either consciousness is important for external behavior, in which case a p-zombie is impossible, or it isn't, in which case a p-zombie is irrelevant. | 15:15 |
| QuantumG | whether a p-zombie is impossible or irrelevant is not worth answering. | 15:15 |
| QuantumG | let's replace the word "conscious" with "drunk". If you can't tell that I'm doing my job drunk, why would you care? | 15:17 |
| kanzure | drunk has a bunch of specific definitions, unfortunately | 15:17 |
| kanzure | like: breathalyzer results, even if it doesn't say anything about your brain-state | 15:17 |
| kanzure | and you can pretend that the ability of your boss to smell your breath is a crude breathalyzer | 15:18 |
| QuantumG | I say the debate over breathalyzer vs walk-the-line/say-the-alphabet-backwards testing is identical to the debate over p-zombies | 15:18 |
| pasky | I completely agree with general QuantumG's argument though | 15:18 |
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| QuantumG | imagine you had a "consciousness breathalyzer", set up roadblocks and did random testing. The people who failed the test would be like "dude, I'm totally conscious!" too | 15:21 |
| QuantumG | if all other external testing failed to detect the lack of consciousness, you'd say the person was a p-zombie, then let them go home because, by definition, they're no danger to themselves or others. | 15:23 |
| QuantumG | so what's the point of this gadget? Finding real zombies or something? p-zombies are just the false positives? | 15:24 |
| QuantumG | I think the real purpose of p-zombies is to demonstrate that anyone who uses the word "consciousness" without a sneer probably has a bong nearby. | 15:25 |
| ebowden | LOL | 15:26 |
| kanzure | ebowden: you can ask sheena about dog things, by the way | 15:27 |
| QuantumG | wtf, google just sent me $120? | 15:27 |
| QuantumG | okay, thanks google | 15:27 |
| kanzure | last december google reversed 3-4 years of adsense deposits | 15:27 |
| kanzure | like the entire amounts that people spent | 15:27 |
| kanzure | so if you spent $60k on ads, you had +$60k | 15:28 |
| kanzure | and then they turned around to reverse the transactions, taking $60k back... but as you can imagine, this causes problems because of exchange rate fluctuation, etc | 15:28 |
| ebowden | Oh, ok, thanks kanzure. | 15:28 |
| QuantumG | fun | 15:28 |
| QuantumG | I think I set the $200 threshold back in 2007. | 15:30 |
| QuantumG | so yeah, 7 years of earnings.. woooo.. | 15:30 |
| nmz787_i | i wonder if anyone caught it in between and closed their bank account before google could re-reverse it | 15:30 |
| kanzure | i was surprised that the news wasn't all over it | 15:30 |
| kanzure | i guess nobody was surprised that the banking infrastructure is totally fucked up | 15:31 |
| QuantumG | they're forcing everyone in Australia to put a pin number on their credit card next year | 15:31 |
| QuantumG | I've never had one, because the concept of a cash advance on a credit card disturbs me. | 15:31 |
| ebowden | Oh, sheena, are you there? | 15:32 |
| QuantumG | and if someone forges your signature, you're never liable for their purchases (which isn't the case for a pin) | 15:32 |
| kanzure | i believe you're liable if the 45-90 day window expires | 15:32 |
| QuantumG | if you have "fraud protection" you're not even liable then, as they're required to detect it and contact you. | 15:33 |
| kanzure | s/liable/not able to get money bcak | 15:34 |
| kanzure | *back | 15:34 |
| pasky | here in czech republic, all cards, credit or debit, use pins and signatures are used only in very exceptional cases | 15:34 |
| QuantumG | I think you mean "not required to repay it", as you never had it in the first place | 15:34 |
| QuantumG | pasky: they probably require chip and pin and do bulk processing. | 15:35 |
| QuantumG | ? | 15:35 |
| pasky | yeah they are all chip cards | 15:35 |
| pasky | hmm, i think i had a card about 9 years ago which would trigger using a signature instead of pin on some gas stations | 15:35 |
| pasky | because they had offline terminals | 15:35 |
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| pasky | but you basically never see that anymore with czech-issued cards in cz | 15:36 |
| QuantumG | I'm figuring I'm going to get rid of my credit cards anyway.. I'm just paying for the privilege of having them. | 15:36 |
| QuantumG | for online purchases I'll just buy a prepaid or refillable card | 15:36 |
| QuantumG | can't be more fucked than using bitcoin | 15:38 |
| QuantumG | http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=34532.msg0 hundreds of pictures of Dragon.. cause it's not exactly the same as the last time I saw these pictures. | 15:41 |
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| sheena | ebowden: am now | 16:51 |
| ebowden | Ah, ok. | 16:51 |
| sheena | dogs? | 16:52 |
| QuantumG | NO DOGS NO DOGS NO DOGS NO DOGS NO DOGS NO DOGS NO DOGS | 16:52 |
| ebowden | So, what do you think of genetically engineering dogs to have higher intellect, and have linguistic abilities? | 16:52 |
| sheena | i think its theorhetically plausible | 16:55 |
| eudoxia | i can already see the vice headline | 16:55 |
| sheena | what would you use the dogs for? | 16:55 |
| sheena | and what would you do with all the 'almost useful but too smart for homes' ones? large kenneling facility? | 16:55 |
| eudoxia | "A geneticist, a bioinformaticist, and a web developer teamed up with furaffinity. You won't believe what happened next" | 16:55 |
| ebowden | LOL | 16:56 |
| ebowden | Sheena, no, for wacky talking dog adventures. | 16:56 |
| sheena | lol what? | 16:56 |
| eudoxia | suuuuuuuureeeeeeeeee | 16:56 |
| eudoxia | it would be cool to do something like upload a doge | 16:58 |
| eudoxia | and then increase the intelligence of the upload | 16:58 |
| eudoxia | that would really be HN front page material | 16:58 |
| cpopell | ebowden: why the fixation in uplifting dogs | 17:00 |
| ebowden | Mainly the idea of wacky talking dog adventures. | 17:00 |
| cpopell | Do you consider this seriously? | 17:01 |
| ebowden | Also, they are better at understanding people than chimps. | 17:01 |
| jrayhawk | counterpoint: Mr. Peabody is a dick | 17:01 |
| sheena | can you explain a wacky talking dog adventure example? | 17:01 |
| sheena | they are certainly better at some human-interaction interpretation than chimps | 17:02 |
| ebowden | We go around the world solving mysteries together. | 17:02 |
| ebowden | :D | 17:02 |
| eudoxia | where in the world is satoshi nakamoto | 17:02 |
| eudoxia | woof woof | 17:02 |
| kanzure | nose work might count | 17:02 |
| ebowden | cpopell, no, dogs are just very good candidates for it. | 17:02 |
| ebowden | (For genetically engineering in linguistic abilities. | 17:03 |
| ebowden | ) | 17:03 |
| sheena | so you want a dog with dog senses, but who can comunicate linguistically? | 17:03 |
| ebowden | Well the wacky adventures and mystery solving is mainly a joke, but... | 17:04 |
| ebowden | It would be nice to see it happen. | 17:05 |
| eudoxia | it might be easier to surgically shape a human into a doge, then somehow give them a doge's personality and cheerful demeanor | 17:05 |
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| ebowden | It would also be incredibly creepy. | 17:07 |
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| kanzure | let's keep to only credibly creepy | 17:07 |
| sheena | so i think dogs have some language already, that we mostly dont tap into | 17:07 |
| sheena | did kanzure send you the lnk i sent him a fwe days ago about this? | 17:07 |
| jrayhawk | the language of butt sniffing | 17:08 |
| kanzure | yes i did | 17:08 |
| QuantumG | if the result is functionally equivalent, what's it matter? I think you want some sort of p-zombie dog. | 17:08 |
| kanzure | http://www.amazon.com/1000m-Dyneema-Strong-Braided-Fishing/dp/B009665S24/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1398193369&sr=8-3&keywords=dyneema | 17:08 |
| kanzure | wait, no | 17:08 |
| kanzure | http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-Can-Sign-Too-Breakthrough/dp/1587613530 | 17:08 |
| sheena | yeah, that one | 17:10 |
| sheena | whats your experience with genetic engineering? | 17:10 |
| kanzure | i don't think he has any, but some others in here do (meeeee) | 17:11 |
| ebowden | kanzure, oh? | 17:11 |
| ebowden | :D | 17:11 |
| ebowden | Can you tell me about it? | 17:12 |
| kanzure | what, you think this channel is just full of people talking about news? | 17:12 |
| ebowden | No, I'm just curious. | 17:12 |
| kanzure | what do you want to know | 17:12 |
| ebowden | Well, what kind of stuff did you work on? | 17:13 |
| ebowden | Knockout mice? Crops? | 17:13 |
| sheena | ebowden: selective breeding has worked pretty well in creating crazy variety in dogs.. | 17:14 |
| ebowden | Yeah, it has. | 17:15 |
| ebowden | But we are yet to get ones that talk and solve mysteries. | 17:15 |
| ebowden | Kanzure? | 17:16 |
| kanzure | is it really important that you know the exact specimens i've worked with? the protocols are not very hard to learn if you've done one, you can usually muddle your way through the next. | 17:16 |
| ebowden | Ah, ok. | 17:16 |
| ebowden | Well, no. | 17:16 |
| ebowden | Just curious what kind of stuff you got to do. | 17:17 |
| kanzure | i do whatever i want | 17:17 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 17:17 |
| kanzure | well why shouldn't i? | 17:17 |
| ebowden | You do whatever you want, in regards to genetic engineering? | 17:17 |
| ebowden | :D | 17:17 |
| kanzure | you are a very confusing person | 17:17 |
| ebowden | (There is absolutely no reason I can think of for you not doing what you want in regards to genetic engineering, kanzure.) | 17:18 |
| andytoshi | i bet he's an ELIZA… must have heard my earlier comments about consciousness not being irc-detectable | 17:18 |
| kanzure | must be | 17:19 |
| sheena | ebowden: i'm not sure anyone is breeding specificaly for language and mystery solving | 17:19 |
| sheena | though dogs are pretty good at problem solving, depending what sorts of mysteries you have to solve! | 17:19 |
| kanzure | i'm sure they are breeding for smell mystery solving | 17:19 |
| kanzure | mystery smell i mean | 17:19 |
| ebowden | Sheena, basically fast track the process. | 17:20 |
| kanzure | is that a command? | 17:20 |
| eudoxia | 'here dog, smell this mailing list archive' | 17:20 |
| eudoxia | 'woof woof' | 17:20 |
| ebowden | (Oh, also kanzure, all the ones I could think of would be very, very stupid recycled anti-GMO arguments.) | 17:21 |
| kanzure | no, you said "got to do" | 17:21 |
| kanzure | it's not about "getting to do" anything, it's about what you happen to do.. | 17:21 |
| ebowden | Kanzure, no, not a command. | 17:21 |
| ebowden | Just explaining. | 17:21 |
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| kanzure | i still don't understand then. "basically fast track the process" is an explanation for what? | 17:21 |
| sheena | ebowden: fast track the process of developing a dog with language skills, using genetic engineering? | 17:22 |
| ebowden | I was explaining to sheena. | 17:22 |
| sheena | i'm not saying it wouldnt work.. but who would fund it? | 17:22 |
| sheena | ebowden: just ignore kanzure ;) | 17:22 |
| ebowden | And yes, sheena gets it. | 17:22 |
| ebowden | Ah, ok. | 17:23 |
| ebowden | sheena: I can dream. | 17:23 |
| sheena | lol ok | 17:24 |
| sheena | i just figure if you dont have a practical application in mind, funding will be difficult | 17:24 |
| kanzure | gene reductionism is a common problem in biology where people think that individual traits must reduce to a single gene | 17:24 |
| sheena | shit im late. sorry. ttyl | 17:24 |
| sheena | hdsheena@gmail.com if you have more thoughts, ebowden | 17:24 |
| ebowden | sheena, I can think of a group of people who would be VERY willing to fund it... | 17:24 |
| ebowden | :D | 17:24 |
| jrayhawk | gene determinism is also awful | 17:24 |
| ebowden | Oh, ok sheena. | 17:24 |
| kanzure | funding isn't so much the problem as much as "the idea is probably wrong in a number of ways" | 17:25 |
| kanzure | (like in the ways that matter if you want to make something happen) | 17:25 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 17:25 |
| kanzure | what do you mean "Oh?" after i explained it and jrayhawk too | 17:25 |
| ebowden | Well, never mind, I'll take your word for it. | 17:26 |
| kanzure | that's even worse! | 17:26 |
| ebowden | I know. :D | 17:26 |
| jrayhawk | so, for reference, we didn't know there were six common DNA nucleotides until 18 months ago. The amount of shit we're clueless about is enormous. | 17:27 |
| kanzure | bah jrayhawk, don't bring up unknown unknowns, that's not a legitimate argument | 17:27 |
| kanzure | i was expecting you to paste your it's-not-quite-like-software quote | 17:27 |
| jrayhawk | well, that'd work, too | 17:27 |
| kanzure | which would seem more informative for ebowden's case | 17:27 |
| kanzure | i suspect he strongly believes that genes directly control human-documented features in a very one-to-one way | 17:28 |
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| ebowden | kanzure, what you do you mean by one-to-one way? | 17:28 |
| kanzure | as opposed to one-to-many or many-to-many | 17:29 |
| ebowden | Oh, no, I don't think that/ | 17:29 |
| ebowden | Oh, no, I don't think that. | 17:29 |
| andytoshi | jrayhawk: link for 6 necleotides? | 17:29 |
| kanzure | there's also a bunch of synthetic/artificial nucleotides that labs have been using | 17:30 |
| ebowden | I know genes don't control one discreet trait. | 17:30 |
| kanzure | in rare circumstances they do, but it's not like machine code. | 17:30 |
| ebowden | I know that, only creationists try to pretend it is. | 17:30 |
| kanzure | uh? | 17:31 |
| ebowden | Kanzure, what's this about new nucleotides? | 17:31 |
| kanzure | there are many people who have misunderstandings about biology other than creationists | 17:31 |
| ebowden | Oh, creationist arguments involve saying that DNA is exactly like a hard drive. | 17:32 |
| ebowden | Oh, some creationist arguments involve saying that DNA is exactly like a hard drive. | 17:32 |
| ebowden | Yes, that's true. | 17:32 |
| jrayhawk | andytoshi: 5-hydroxymethylcytosine is the latest one | 17:32 |
| andytoshi | ebowden: you sholud read 'darwin's dangerous idea', it has a high-level overview of some of this stuff and a shitload of citations | 17:32 |
| ebowden | Thanks andytoshi. | 17:33 |
| andytoshi | jrayhawk: we don't bother with simple names anymore? ;) | 17:33 |
| kanzure | shrug, the simple name is "the second cytosine" or something | 17:33 |
| QuantumG | nah, creationists are all about the watchmaker analogy | 17:33 |
| ebowden | They do use the other one as well. | 17:33 |
| QuantumG | apparently the operation of cells is so complex and beautiful that it must have been created by an intelligence | 17:33 |
| ebowden | LOL | 17:33 |
| QuantumG | clearly, they've never learnt a damn thing about how cells work, or any sort of engineering either | 17:34 |
| ebowden | Yea, the components of clocks do not have natural affinities to each other. | 17:34 |
| ebowden | jrayhawk, can you explain this novel nucleotide thing to me? | 17:34 |
| QuantumG | cause if an engineer made the crap we've found in cells we'd string him up | 17:34 |
| kanzure | it just means that some molecules of dna have different nucleotides | 17:34 |
| kanzure | cell metabolism to some extent determines the available molecules to build more dna | 17:34 |
| ebowden | QuantumG LOL | 17:35 |
| kanzure | and sometimes this means less "normal" nucleotide-equivalent options are available | 17:35 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 17:35 |
| kanzure | or, that you can get stuck in a local minima on a loaf of bread in a fridge and maybe those cells that don't require the unavailable nucleotides are able to build more of themselves more than the other cells | 17:35 |
| ebowden | kanzure, have you got a link where I can learn about this? | 17:36 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/ | 17:36 |
| ebowden | Ah, ok. | 17:36 |
| ebowden | Thankyou kanzure. | 17:36 |
| QuantumG | On the other hand, you can kinda see where creationists get this watchmaker analogy from if they've ever looked at a molecular biology textbook | 17:37 |
| QuantumG | molecular biologists just love making models of how cellular functions work that are all clean and engineered looking | 17:37 |
| ebowden | Still, the stupid hurts. | 17:37 |
| ebowden | Yeah. | 17:37 |
| kanzure | except they aren't actually clean | 17:38 |
| jrayhawk | ebowden: DNA is dynamically configurable; specifically cytosine can be swapped out for 5-methylcytosine and 5-hydroxymethylcytosine. These are currently conceptualized as 'speedbumps' in the transcription process that determine expression, but biology is always more complicated than we suspect. | 17:38 |
| andytoshi | i also think if you've never coded you'll be more susceptible to creationism, even hume said he couldn't imagine where all this complexit came from | 17:38 |
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| ebowden | jrayhawk, yeah. | 17:38 |
| andytoshi | and he was a massive 'fuck the pope' atheist, if he were alive today he'd literally starve he'd spend so much time on reddit | 17:38 |
| QuantumG | heh | 17:39 |
| jrayhawk | s/determine expression/\0 of a particular subsequent gene/ | 17:39 |
| kanzure | "... there is no source, the bytecode has multiple reentrent abstractions, is unstable and has a very low signal to noise ratio, the runtime is unbootstrappable, the execution is nondeterministic, it tries to randomly integrate and execute code from other computers... multiple reentrant and self-modifying abstractions. absolutely everything has subtle side effects." | 17:39 |
| kanzure | bitcoin is biology | 17:40 |
| jrayhawk | i wonder how much of that quote i stole from matthew garrett | 17:40 |
| kanzure | kill him and claim it for yourself | 17:41 |
| jrayhawk | he's fueled by booze and rage | 17:41 |
| ebowden | LOL | 17:41 |
| jrayhawk | all i have is bacon and deontardation | 17:41 |
| QuantumG | any good papers on protein engineering as a pathway to productive nanotechnology in the last few years kanzure? | 17:42 |
| jrayhawk | http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/6376.html ah, maybe half of it | 17:42 |
| kanzure | only moderatively productive stuff is the dna origami things from winfree's lab, but you might be bored by that by now | 17:42 |
| kanzure | as for protein engineering, there's a lot of known motifs | 17:42 |
| kanzure | here's some papers about engineering just polymerase enzymes: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/polymerase/ | 17:43 |
| kanzure | this paper was also fun: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/protein-engineering/Design%20of%20protein%20function%20leaps%20by%20directed%20domain%20interface%20evolution.pdf | 17:43 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure, walnut creek transcript link? this dude is saying they said (sometime, didn't specify where/when) that they said " diybio movement would cross a 'red line' for them if it had cheap | 17:43 |
| nmz787_i | > independent dna synthesis technology" | 17:43 |
| ebowden | Oh, jrayhawk, do you think the effects of the active compounds in lion's mane mushrooms are anything special? | 17:43 |
| nmz787_i | i remember them blowing off that question | 17:43 |
| nmz787_i | but maybe something happened since then | 17:43 |
| kanzure | nmz787_i: git clone git://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki.git | 17:43 |
| kanzure | nmz787_i: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012/howard-simon-dna20.txt | 17:44 |
| nmz787_i | s/happened/was said/ | 17:44 |
| QuantumG | read any of these? http://mechanosynthesis.mit.edu/?page_id=11 | 17:44 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18844328 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20834180 http://journals.prous.com/journals/servlet/xmlxsl/pk_journals.xml_summary_pr?p_JournalId=2&p_RefId=1173290&p_IsPs=N http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20834180 yes, though a lot of brain research is hampered by a terrible null hypothesis | 17:44 |
| paperbot | ConnectionError: [Errno 111] Connection refused (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/models.py", line 625, in send) | 17:44 |
| kanzure | nope, but this one seems fun: "Microscale machining and nanoscale surface modification of carbon nanotube forests by ultrafast laser irradiation." | 17:45 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: what terrible null hypothesis in those? or at least, not those, but the generally-terrible one you are expecting | 17:45 |
| nmz787_i | hmm, I don't see my question in there | 17:45 |
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| kanzure | me either, search the others | 17:45 |
| jrayhawk | american test subjects | 17:46 |
| ebowden | jrayhawk, thankyou. | 17:46 |
| kanzure | "red line" doesn't show up in the transcripts | 17:46 |
| kanzure | it's possible that i was pooping | 17:46 |
| kanzure | and not typing | 17:46 |
| jrayhawk | or, rather, test subjects with atrociously inflammatory diets | 17:47 |
| kanzure | are these transcripts even useful? should i bother | 17:47 |
| kanzure | because there's probably some non-negligble damage that i'm doing to myself | 17:47 |
| jrayhawk | pretty much anything with any immune modulating activity whatsoever, including cortisol reduction from the placebo effect, will have "special" effects on diseases of affluence. | 17:49 |
| jrayhawk | lion's mane mushroom could be bioaccumulating lithium for all i know | 17:49 |
| kanzure | "Robofurnace: A semi-automated laboratory CVD system for high-throughput nanomaterial synthesis and process discovery." | 17:49 |
| ebowden | jrayhawk, do you think we should be testing just the isolated active compounds? | 17:50 |
| ebowden | I do. | 17:51 |
| jrayhawk | no, the problem is the null hypothesis | 17:51 |
| ebowden | Well, if they really are the active compounds. | 17:51 |
| ebowden | What is wrong with it? | 17:51 |
| jrayhawk | normalizing on pathology results in conclusions largely tangential to health | 17:52 |
| ebowden | ok. | 17:52 |
| jrayhawk | Take any single RCT on palmitic acid you like; it will demonstrate LDL receptor downregulation and resultant inflammation and oxidative stress | 17:53 |
| jrayhawk | s/single/single-variable/ | 17:53 |
| jrayhawk | Take any single-variable RCT on arachidonic acid you like; it will demonstrate increased imbalanced eicosanoid production resulting in inflammation and oxidative stress | 17:54 |
| ebowden | Right. | 17:54 |
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| jrayhawk | Take any single-variable RCT on methionine you like; it will demonstrate reduced glutathione production resulting in oxidative stress and inflammation | 17:55 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: do you ever look at or use the kebb metabolism image database thing? | 17:56 |
| kanzure | kegg, i mean | 17:56 |
| kanzure | http://www.genome.jp/dbget-bin/www_bfind_sub?mode=bfind&max_hit=1000&locale=en&serv=kegg&dbkey=kegg&keywords=glycogen&page=1 | 17:56 |
| jrayhawk | Meanwhile all of the conclusions you derive from those RCTs are actually moving you further away from health because they only appear pathological *in the context of existing pathologies* | 17:57 |
| kanzure | the one you are probably most interested in is 'KEGG REACTION' | 17:57 |
| kanzure | oh wait, or is it kegg pathway? | 17:58 |
| kanzure | http://www.genome.jp/kegg/reaction/ | 17:58 |
| kanzure | http://www.genome.jp/kegg/pathway.html | 17:58 |
| kanzure | "EGG REACTION contains all reactions taken from KEGG ENZYME and additional reactions taken from the metabolic pathway maps in KEGG PATHWAY. Each reaction is identified by the R number, such as R00259 for the acetylation of L-glutamate. Reactions are linked to ortholog groups of enzymes as defined by the KEGG ORTHOLOGY database, enabling integrated analysis genomic (enzyme genes) and chemical (compound pairs) information." | 17:58 |
| nmz787_i | ugh, i can't figure out how to set git to go through the proxy | 18:00 |
| kanzure | PROXY="0.0.0.0:80" git fetch | 18:00 |
| jrayhawk | man git-config | 18:00 |
| jrayhawk | man curl | 18:00 |
| jrayhawk | either one will do | 18:00 |
| kanzure | i'm curious if anyone has done food studies on this data set | 18:01 |
| kanzure | you can probably get your SNPs aligned to this data and then see which pathways are either working or not working for you | 18:01 |
| nmz787_i | is diyhpl.us http or https? | 18:01 |
| kanzure | and then based on simple models of food in terms of their macronutrient or micronutrient properties, you could determine basic metabolic rates and yields for all the reactions, or absorption rates, etc. | 18:02 |
| kanzure | oh i guess permeability is the blocking issue there | 18:02 |
| jrayhawk | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/ | 18:02 |
| jrayhawk | this contains the clone urls | 18:02 |
| jrayhawk | it is not itself a clone url | 18:02 |
| kanzure | maybe permeability doesn't matter if you do poop studies | 18:03 |
| kanzure | anything not there was absorbed | 18:03 |
| jrayhawk | the http transport is pretty dumb and I don't feel like supporting it. | 18:04 |
| kanzure | hrm but then you have to account for microbial content of gut | 18:04 |
| nmz787_i | so what is the git transport? | 18:05 |
| nmz787_i | i used git config --global http.proxy http://server:portnum | 18:05 |
| kanzure | that looks like http to me | 18:06 |
| kanzure | why are you setting up a proxy anyway | 18:07 |
| jrayhawk | intel, presumably | 18:07 |
| nmz787_i | I'd only grep the dir for synthesi | 18:07 |
| nmz787_i | rather that's all i want to do, i can read the files over http | 18:07 |
| kanzure | you have an account on the server, you can just ssh in | 18:08 |
| nmz787_i | heh, you think so? | 18:08 |
| kanzure | what sort of fucked up work environment disables git clone? | 18:08 |
| nmz787_i | and ssh | 18:08 |
| kanzure | you should quit | 18:08 |
| nmz787_i | lol | 18:08 |
| nmz787_i | na | 18:08 |
| nmz787_i | i like the cafe too much | 18:08 |
| kanzure | no drugs AND no ssh? come on. | 18:08 |
| nmz787_i | plus i work on the same floor as my gf | 18:09 |
| nmz787_i | the hiring lady told me they stopped testing actually | 18:09 |
| jrayhawk | do people get fired for using corkscrew | 18:09 |
| jrayhawk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corkscrew_(program) | 18:10 |
| nmz787_i | i had tried something last month, idk if it was that | 18:10 |
| nmz787_i | something with a cat in it | 18:10 |
| nmz787_i | nmap | 18:10 |
| nmz787_i | and it didn't work | 18:11 |
| jrayhawk | ... "didn't work" | 18:11 |
| nmz787_i | but i think the lingo was something like 'don't do anything that could compromise our network' | 18:11 |
| nmz787_i | can't remember if the word tunnel was used | 18:11 |
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| jrayhawk | it would be a dumb use regardless; SSL is a tunnel. | 18:12 |
| dingo | jrayhawk: i know of aa bunch of solaris sysadmins who got fired from A.G. Edwards for tunneling out | 18:12 |
| dingo | but it was part of a massive layoff, and they just dug up a reason to fire them without pay | 18:13 |
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| dingo | i've tunneled out of "secure research facilities", the kind that don't let you bring in a phone if it has a camera on it, and search your waistline and shoes and shit | 18:13 |
| dingo | sysadmins are notoriously inept | 18:13 |
| dingo | if they weren't, they'd be developers | 18:13 |
| jrayhawk | It'd be pretty easy to notice who makes long-lived SSL connections. | 18:14 |
| dingo | yeah i thought so too, i was waiting to get walked out | 18:14 |
| dingo | its easy to fix anyway | 18:14 |
| jrayhawk | I don't think network-wide MITMing counts as "easy", but that seems to be the normal approach these days. | 18:15 |
| dingo | naw i mean just, you could dhcp new leases often, break the connection and reconnect every 15 minutes, whatever | 18:15 |
| QuantumG | on the other hand, I know people who work in ordinary offices, have unlimited free access to facebook on their phone and still complain about IT blocking it.. and IT still block it, even though everyone has it on their phone. Common sense aint common. | 18:15 |
| nmz787_i | couldn't you just break up the sessions? | 18:15 |
| nmz787_i | oh, what dingo said | 18:15 |
| dingo | proxy it through a dedicated server, like a developer's environment, where it looks purposeful | 18:15 |
| dingo | thats what i did at my last gig | 18:16 |
| nmz787_i | google app engine | 18:16 |
| nmz787_i | lol | 18:16 |
| jrayhawk | Oh, yeah. | 18:16 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: your task is to read the entirety of kegg | 18:18 |
| jrayhawk | oh god | 18:18 |
| kanzure | start here http://www.genome.jp/dbget-bin/www_bget?rn:R03024 | 18:18 |
| jrayhawk | it's more tempting than it should be to try to convert it all to ikiwiki's linkmapped graphviz plugin | 18:19 |
| jrayhawk | https://ikiwiki.info/plugins/linkmap/ which is badass if you haven't seen it before | 18:19 |
| kanzure | but then you end up with giant pngs | 18:19 |
| nmz787_i | and also the thing patrikd mentioned a few times, some project with a capitalized acronym | 18:19 |
| kanzure | if anything, it should be something other than graphical output | 18:19 |
| kanzure | and don't tell me about graphviz's ascii output | 18:19 |
| nmz787_i | DECODE | 18:19 |
| kanzure | ask cluckj about that one | 18:20 |
| kanzure | cluckj: your fault | 18:20 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: oh look, boxes with arrows.. great. | 18:20 |
| jrayhawk | and links | 18:20 |
| jrayhawk | don't forget links | 18:20 |
| kanzure | heatmap? | 18:20 |
| kanzure | or svg with links | 18:20 |
| kanzure | hah <map><area /></map> | 18:20 |
| jrayhawk | a heatmap for what? | 18:21 |
| kanzure | no i was wondering about the implementation | 18:21 |
| kanzure | the old school way, long before i was born, was something like "link to a cgi file, with pixel coordinates" | 18:21 |
| nmz787_i | oh, sorry, wrong way... it's ENCODE https://www.genome.gov/encode/ | 18:22 |
| jrayhawk | i'd assumed graphviz's plotters were willing to output coordinates for debugging purposes anyway | 18:23 |
| kanzure | maybe there's some computational biology projects that dump vitamins into these reactions/equations and calculate yields | 18:23 |
| jrayhawk | i think grad students are normally used for that | 18:23 |
| kanzure | that's stupid | 18:23 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: get on it | 18:23 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pcbi.1000554 | 18:25 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Nutritional%20Systems%20Biology%20Modeling%3A%20From%20Molecular%20Mechanisms%20to%20Physiology.pdf | 18:25 |
| kanzure | "A recent mathematical model was developed to quantify the factors that determine the proportion of weight loss coming from body fat versus lean tissue. The basis for the model was a classic theory of Gilbert Forbes who hypothesized that longitudinal body composition changes are described by movement along a logarithmic curve relating lean body mass to fat mass [61]." | 18:26 |
| kanzure | oh that's weird. why not not base it on actual biology instead. | 18:26 |
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| kanzure | ah this is slightly more sane: "A computational model of macronutrient balance was recently used to integrate the available data on the metabolic changes in patients with cancer cachexia. The resulting computer simulations showed how the known metabolic derangements (e.g., increased proteolysis, lipolysis, and gluconeogenesis) synergize with reduced energy intake to result in a progressive loss of body weight, fat mass, and lean tissue [71]." | 18:27 |
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| kanzure | i see nothing about using the known reactions and yields | 18:28 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://journals.lww.com/co-clinicalnutrition/Abstract/2008/05000/Computational_modeling_of_cancer_cachexia.5.aspx | 18:29 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/fc6ed9876dded579937cfcd9afd6d77f.txt | 18:29 |
| fenn | good thing they included ™ and ° and • on this keyboard but not up or down arrows | 18:35 |
| fenn | i am chatting today on a e-ink reader with debian and android installed | 18:37 |
| fenn | itsvreally hard to play frozen bubble in monochrome even with colorblind mode on | 18:38 |
| kanzure | fenn: you may find this useful https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.volosyukivan | 18:38 |
| kanzure | it runs an http server on your android device that serves up a <textarea> for providing keyboard input from another machine | 18:38 |
| jrayhawk | fenn: Mer Nemo is a pretty good architecture for embedded touch systems | 18:38 |
| fenn | no idea how to copy a link | 18:38 |
| kanzure | linkcopy is illegal sharing | 18:39 |
| fenn | linkimi for communist president | 18:39 |
| kanzure | also | 18:40 |
| kanzure | http://www.amazon.com/ZAGG-FOLZKFLEXSLV-Zagg-ZAGGkeys-FLEX/dp/B00695OFE2 | 18:40 |
| fenn | oh al i dont have google play. all free software but the kernel :/ | 18:41 |
| kanzure | if you are using connectbot then there's a copy button once you click the screens a few times | 18:41 |
| kanzure | you can download google play here: http://goo.im/gapps/ | 18:41 |
| fenn | i see alt tab ctl sym blank textbox thingy and keyboard | 18:43 |
| kanzure | oh, it might be under menu | 18:43 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: i was reading about maemo and how it was thrown to the wolves | 18:44 |
| fenn | so sad. an sailfish os isnt exactly open | 18:44 |
| jrayhawk | oh man maemo is so fucking infurating. the N-series tablets were supposed to be phones, but entrenched internal politics around | 18:45 |
| jrayhawk | Symbian kept them from getting cellular modems. | 18:45 |
| jrayhawk | The would've had a full Linux phone with a WVGA screen in 2005, and video calls in 2008 | 18:47 |
| fenn | uh oh i scrolled up and now i cant get back down. treed like a cat. call the fire dept! | 18:48 |
| jrayhawk | as it is we didn't get that shit in phone form until 2009, and, even then, there were no carrier comarketing efforts | 18:49 |
| jrayhawk | meanwhile android forked nokia's kernel work and worse-is-bettered themselves a whole new ecosystem | 18:49 |
| fenn | and saddled us with java for eternity | 18:50 |
| nmz787_i | even on the new HTC flagship phone, the One M8, copy-paste sucks horrible and pisses me off so much | 18:50 |
| nmz787_i | this is running kitkat | 18:50 |
| fenn | how do you select text anyway? | 18:51 |
| kanzure | cat /proc/mem | grep | 18:51 |
| nmz787_i | should be press and hold | 18:51 |
| kanzure | oops i mean grep /proc/mem before someone kills me over cat | 18:52 |
| jrayhawk | i find it interesting that microsoft killed both Nokia's Meego and OLPC's Sugar | 18:52 |
| jrayhawk | those seem like genius tactical moves, but i have no idea if they were anything more than accidental | 18:52 |
| kanzure | i think olpc actually had mshtml compatibility | 18:52 |
| kanzure | because of pyjamas | 18:52 |
| Lemminkainen | hahaha this | 18:52 |
| Lemminkainen | http://www.genengnews.com/gen-news-highlights/pfizer-bids-101b-for-astrazeneca/81249769/ | 18:52 |
| kanzure | .title | 18:53 |
| yoleaux | News Highlights:After $101B Bid, Pfizer Will Likely Try, Try Again for AstraZeneca | 18:53 |
| nmz787_i | now on kitkat, when you select text, or press and hold on some unselectable block (where you might expect to copy the string)... like 4 or 5 buttons come up across the top of the screen and they don't make any sense, and they don't seem to do anything.... the only reliable way i've found it to click the 'share' button which has a link to 'copy to clipboard' | 18:53 |
| nmz787_i | well, reliable when the option is there | 18:54 |
| fenn | 10^11$ wasnt enough? | 18:54 |
| Lemminkainen | apparently not | 18:54 |
| Lemminkainen | I wonder if Astrazeneca is vulnerable to a leveraged buy-out | 18:54 |
| jrayhawk | i will say the Sailfish folks have a much better development model. All the Mer stuff underneath is developed in the open. | 18:54 |
| jrayhawk | Maemo was mostly throw-stuff-over-the-wall android-style. | 18:54 |
| kanzure | "AstraZeneca boosted its cancer immunotherapy pipeline in January when its MedImmune subsidiary inked an oncology research collaboration and licensing agreement with Immunocore that could generate as much as $320 million per compound developed" | 18:55 |
| kanzure | all these valuations are largely based on licensing deals. hehe. | 18:55 |
| kanzure | "The companies agreed to develop cancer therapies using Immunocore’s Immune Mobilising Monoclonal T-Cell Receptor Against Cancer (ImmTAC) technology, which direct a patient’s T cells to specifically destroy only the cancerous cells, avoiding damage to healthy cells." | 18:55 |
| Lemminkainen | you expect them to work on hard data? | 18:55 |
| nmz787_i | the 1080p display and front-facing speakers are really really nice on this phone though | 18:55 |
| kanzure | t-cell reprogramming is something that i keep expecting to see | 18:56 |
| Lemminkainen | Juno did a decent job at it | 18:57 |
| Lemminkainen | raised themselves $145M in a Series A | 18:57 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: so can i just install mer on debian and be done? | 18:57 |
| Lemminkainen | and promptly got flooded with lawsuits (IP conflict out of Dr June at UPenn) | 18:57 |
| jrayhawk | The metadistribution tools are installable on Debian, but the Mer stuff itself is a distribution. | 18:59 |
| jrayhawk | Maybe in a chroot or something. | 18:59 |
| jrayhawk | Some of the Nemo UX stuff might be independently installable. | 18:59 |
| jrayhawk | Debian itself is sorta bad for embedded systems; Stskeeps started off his distribution engineering efforts with Deblet for the n810 (which I still run), but it's pretty slow due to Debian's generality. | 19:03 |
| jrayhawk | What they really needed was something like Gentoo, but with better cross-architecture support. | 19:04 |
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| jrayhawk | Which they made. | 19:04 |
| fenn | so it is now possible to buy $50 andriid tablets. almost makes sense to use them as light switches and tv remote controls | 19:04 |
| fenn | it seems like this stuff is more complicated than it ouht to be | 19:05 |
| jrayhawk | I blame ARM. | 19:05 |
| fenn | why not debian? | 19:06 |
| fenn | er. why is it not good for embedded | 19:06 |
| jrayhawk | There's no way for a single distribution to meaningfully target a platform with no definition. | 19:06 |
| kanzure | are you still scroll-locked | 19:06 |
| fenn | no i figured out the difference between fling and scroll | 19:07 |
| jrayhawk | At best they can target an instruction set. | 19:07 |
| fenn | you have to fli ng really fast because the screen size or something | 19:07 |
| jrayhawk | And that instruction set is going to wind up being a highly compatible one as with e.g. x86 and i386. | 19:08 |
| fenn | ARM is just an instruction set | 19:08 |
| jrayhawk | it is just a dozen instruction sets | 19:09 |
| fenn | hmm i actually dont know much about the details | 19:09 |
| fenn | so you need more chipbspecific compile time options? | 19:09 |
| kanzure | why not just target armv7a and be done with it | 19:10 |
| jrayhawk | That would certainly help, but there's also a lot of hardware support that goes into userspace because lawyers. | 19:10 |
| fenn | well i noticed there are a few different arm architectures in ebian | 19:10 |
| jrayhawk | arm64 will hopefully be the new baseline for distributions much like amd64 is | 19:11 |
| nmz787_i | heh, and intel has their ARM to IA enhancment layer going on, which I actually don't know much about | 19:13 |
| nmz787_i | s/ehancement/translation/ | 19:13 |
| nmz787_i | or something like that | 19:13 |
| fenn | okay so why not gentoo | 19:14 |
| fenn | emerge angry-birds | 19:15 |
| jrayhawk | doesn't cross-build. | 19:15 |
| fenn | really. | 19:15 |
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| fenn | "see also raspberry pi cross building" | 19:17 |
| kanzure | a bunch of people have been obsessed with also compiling on raspberry pi itself. makes no sense to me. | 19:17 |
| fenn | doesnt distcc basically fix that anyway | 19:18 |
| fenn | or ccache | 19:18 |
| fenn | really there should just be a dht p2p compile cache | 19:18 |
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| jrayhawk | anyway, if you want to look over the mer equivalents, I think they're still using Meego Image Creator (MIC) and kickstarter (.ks) files. | 19:21 |
| fenn | what are they called? | 19:22 |
| jrayhawk | https://github.com/nemomobile/nemo-kickstarter-configs | 19:22 |
| fenn | ok | 19:22 |
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| kanzure | dht compile cache would have verification issues | 19:24 |
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| fenn | this is why we are also long overdue for a distributed trust network | 19:25 |
| Lemminkainen | fenn try Urbit | 19:26 |
| fenn | ofc you would still want at least two vouches in case a maintainer got hacked | 19:26 |
| Lemminkainen | "Urbit at present is not good for anything but screwing around. For screwing around, it answers all your needs and is happy to consume any amount of unwanted time." | 19:28 |
| kanzure | so a girlfriend? | 19:28 |
| kanzure | also, are kickstarter files centos-only? | 19:29 |
| Lemminkainen | it's an interesting inheritor of Kademlia | 19:29 |
| jrayhawk | kickstarter files were meego-specific | 19:30 |
| kanzure | i've only written them in the context of centos stuff :( | 19:30 |
| Lemminkainen | and kanzure what type of women are you dating that don't have their own shit going on? who has any amount of unwanted time? | 19:30 |
| jrayhawk | oh | 19:30 |
| jrayhawk | i might be confused about terminology, then | 19:31 |
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| jrayhawk | you are terrible at participating in distributed trust networks | 19:33 |
| fenn | its true | 19:34 |
| fenn | also terrible at maintaining softwarw | 19:35 |
| fenn | long live gqview! | 19:36 |
| dingo | I'm legit, you can trust me | 19:36 |
| jrayhawk | http://pgp.cs.uu.nl/stats/FEEDBEEF.html good key id, or best key id? | 19:36 |
| fenn | a dingo ate my FEEDBEEF! | 19:36 |
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| fenn | so i thought i needed android to suport all teh appsss but it turn out nobody really made anything that is more than a weekend hack anyway | 19:39 |
| jrayhawk | libhybris fixes that problem regardless | 19:41 |
| fenn | apologies to any android devs in the audience. oh wait, no i'm not | 19:41 |
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| fenn | wtf google rewrote libc? | 19:44 |
| jrayhawk | need to make compatibility a pain in the ass somehow | 19:45 |
| kanzure | oh man, there's house/fringe cross-over fanfic | 19:46 |
| jrayhawk | i would have higher hopes for house/dexter crossover fanfic | 19:47 |
| kanzure | "dexter's lab? why would you even mention dexter" | 19:47 |
| kanzure | "OH" | 19:47 |
| fenn | house/sherlock crossover | 19:47 |
| Lemminkainen | it would be awesome if Dexter's Lab got a biotech spin-off | 19:48 |
| kanzure | sherlock doesn't count, he's already a copy | 19:48 |
| Lemminkainen | Mandark's Squish Lab | 19:48 |
| kanzure | "a ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha! I am evil! I am genius! I denounce all that is good in science and will harness the evil in electricity! For I am Mandark, King of Technology! Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha!" | 19:48 |
| QuantumG | I knew it | 19:49 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: so you can run android apps on mer? | 19:52 |
| jrayhawk | In theory. | 19:52 |
| jrayhawk | I haven't tried. | 19:52 |
| jrayhawk | moldbug sure does like writing words | 19:53 |
| fenn | what are you running mer on, hardware wise | 19:53 |
| jrayhawk | An n900, sometimes. | 19:53 |
| fenn | oh cool it can use android graphics drivers | 19:55 |
| fenn | i am sort of clueless about all this mobile stuff | 19:56 |
| fenn | is it expectedbthat a keyboard will work if plugged into a recent phone? | 19:57 |
| kanzure | no, usb keyboards don't seem to be common | 19:57 |
| fenn | i know its possible on the nook eink reader with some arcane sorcery | 19:58 |
| fenn | what about bluetooth keyboards? | 19:58 |
| kanzure | i've been using an ios/android bluetooth keyboard, but i don't know if generic bluetooth keyboards work | 19:59 |
| fenn | what makes it "ios/android"? | 19:59 |
| kanzure | it has a physical switch for "android mode" and "ios mode" :( | 19:59 |
| kanzure | http://www.amazon.com/ZAGG-FOLZKFLEXSLV-Zagg-ZAGGkeys-FLEX/dp/B00695OFE2 | 20:00 |
| * fenn gazes at the url wistfully | 20:01 | |
| QuantumG | .title | 20:01 |
| yoleaux | Amazon.com: Zagg ZAGGkeys FLEX (FOLZKFLEXSLV): Computers & Accessories | 20:01 |
| fenn | lets see how many tabs the android browser can handle | 20:02 |
| kanzure | famous last words | 20:03 |
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| jrayhawk | I think most of Google's devices have USB OTG. | 20:10 |
| jrayhawk | The N900 sorta does, but it doesn't do automatic mode switching. | 20:11 |
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| fenn | its in "advanced settings->usb host" on android | 20:12 |
| fenn | you would think it would stay in otg host mode since you have tell it to swith to usb storage mode every time you plug into a host | 20:13 |
| fenn | i dont see any advance settings so ymmv | 20:15 |
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| kanzure | vim edit mode ctrl-t deletes 3 characters at a time instead of 4. wah. | 20:46 |
| kanzure | iii | 20:53 |
| kanzure | oops | 20:53 |
| dingo | oh perhaps freenode filters ^G, sad | 20:55 |
| dingo | i was making a joke... | 20:55 |
| dingo | i remember taking a intro to unix class in college, we all learn vi on the 2nd class day, and all you hear is these solaris machines... beep... beep... beep beep.. beep hahaha | 20:55 |
| dingo | so i did wall < /dev/urandom and some people really freaked out | 20:55 |
| dingo | school can be fun | 20:56 |
| dingo | thats almost worth paying money for | 20:56 |
| kanzure | iiiii | 20:59 |
| kanzure | gah | 20:59 |
| kanzure | now vim is frozen | 20:59 |
| kanzure | huh i thought there was 'delete last n characters' trick. | 21:07 |
| dingo | there is 'dt<char>' | 21:07 |
| dingo | delete to char | 21:08 |
| dingo | perhaps its dTx | 21:08 |
| dingo | would delete back to letter x | 21:08 |
| dingo | something like that | 21:08 |
| dingo | i was just in need of "swap this word with the next" | 21:08 |
| dingo | i know it can be done, i wish i did each of those little tricks daily, thats the problem with memorization | 21:08 |
| dingo | need to keep that stuff fresh | 21:08 |
| dingo | i'm very ineffective with vim | 21:08 |
| kanzure | dT gets to me to something about a tasklist | 21:09 |
| dingo | ha | 21:09 |
| dingo | some day man... i'm going to print all of vim's help out, and go out to sea, on a clipper ship ... | 21:10 |
| dingo | and then probobly burn it for warmth | 21:10 |
| dingo | but i'll come back a better man | 21:10 |
| kanzure | imap <C-a> <Space><Esc>4X | 21:13 |
| kanzure | this is close but it doesn't put me back in edit mode | 21:13 |
| kanzure | oh, just +i at the end | 21:14 |
| kanzure | blah but it overrides my buffer. | 21:14 |
| kanzure | vim is a house of cards | 21:15 |
| kanzure | nope. this is still not right. | 21:19 |
| kanzure | aha, what about this: :imap <C-a> <BS><BS><BS><BS> | 21:21 |
| kanzure | C-a because it turns out my terminal eats C-backspace | 21:22 |
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| kanzure | http://www.tedunangst.com/flak/post/worst-common-denominator-programming | 21:42 |
| kanzure | (openssl hate) | 21:42 |
| kanzure | <beck> you know it's going to be good when the function starts with: | 21:43 |
| kanzure | <beck> char buf[288 + 1], tmp[20], str[128 + 1]; | 21:43 |
| kanzure | #pragma summon cthulhu | 21:44 |
| QuantumG | but, ya know, having an open source implementation of a security critical protocol is better cause [long list of things no-one now has an incentive to do] | 21:45 |
| kanzure | why would you care either way? you're paid to reverse engineer it in both situations, right? | 21:46 |
| QuantumG | oh, you think I care? | 21:46 |
| kanzure | money? | 21:46 |
| kanzure | root? | 21:46 |
| kanzure | conan, what matters most in life? money and root. | 21:47 |
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| QuantumG | I wonder what the software world would be like if the battle lines had been drawn slightly differently. Instead of compiled-commercial vs source-gratis, what if it had been source-commercial vs compiled-gratis? | 21:50 |
| QuantumG | hmm.. I think game engines vs game modding is like that.. and commercial game engines win out over "free to mod" every day of the week. | 21:51 |
| kanzure | approximately all mobile games are just using irrlicht | 21:52 |
| kanzure | it's pretty funny | 21:52 |
| QuantumG | .. so maybe the interesting question is just if maybe these two orthogonal concepts had never been so intertwined. | 21:52 |
| fenn | time to register biblioleaks.org | 21:59 |
| kanzure | reading the backlog? | 22:01 |
| kanzure | i don't get it though; what's so wrong about leaking bibliographies. | 22:01 |
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| QuantumG | I doubt they're even copyrightable. | 22:02 |
| QuantumG | being mere lists and all | 22:02 |
| kanzure | they should have called it paperleak or something, since they mean papers | 22:02 |
| QuantumG | openbiblio.net exists | 22:03 |
| kanzure | we'll use blackhatbio.com | 22:03 |
| QuantumG | http://openbiblio.net/2011/07/13/are-bibliographies-copyrightable-the-german-case/ | 22:03 |
| kanzure | i'm sure some of the publishers have bought laws in the smaller countries | 22:05 |
| kanzure | dingo: you'd know? | 22:05 |
| dingo | < kanzure> <beck> you know it's going to be good when the function starts with: | 22:06 |
| dingo | is that bob beck? | 22:06 |
| * dingo catching up | 22:07 | |
| kanzure | dunno, it's a quote from http://www.tedunangst.com/flak/post/worst-common-denominator-programming | 22:08 |
| dingo | yeah thats bob beck, toronto guy, good guy | 22:08 |
| dingo | don't know him, just his work | 22:08 |
| dingo | http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/bob-beck/5/2a2/157 | 22:09 |
| dingo | i once wrote code for biblio stuff.. theres an open api | 22:09 |
| * dingo 's head spins | 22:10 | |
| kanzure | any hints at how angry they are about people having citation graph data | 22:10 |
| dingo | hh yes bibtex | 22:11 |
| QuantumG | jimmyaccess.org | 22:12 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/articles | 22:13 |
| QuantumG | jim·my /ˈjimē/ verb informal 1. force open | 22:13 |
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| kanzure | weirdest one i've run across is http://expaper.cn/ | 22:14 |
| QuantumG | yeah, used it.. has that annoying exchange policy | 22:15 |
| dingo | i don't know anything about bibliographies anymore, sorry | 22:15 |
| dingo | i can't beleive how much i've forgotten | 22:15 |
| kanzure | probably for the better | 22:16 |
| kanzure | now you get to replace all your terrible xslt knowledge with terrible libvirt knowledge | 22:16 |
| dingo | oh man i'm exausted at this job | 22:16 |
| dingo | i'm giving it until june or so | 22:16 |
| dingo | maybe less, depending | 22:16 |
| kanzure | any idea what's next? | 22:16 |
| dingo | vacation :-) | 22:17 |
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| QuantumG | Two leading computer scientists work toward their goal of Technological Singularity, as a radical anti-technology organization fights to prevent them from creating a world where computers can transcend the abilities of the human brain. | 22:42 |
| QuantumG | http://www.imdb.com/video/imdb/vi4184385561/ | 22:42 |
| QuantumG | Johnny Depp saying "superhuman intelligence" | 22:42 |
| QuantumG | already in cinemas in the USA, opens in cinemas tomorrow in Australia | 22:45 |
| kanzure | is that "radical anti-technology organization" called singularity institute? | 22:46 |
| QuantumG | Japan last.. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2209764/releaseinfo | 22:46 |
| kanzure | oops i mean machine intelligence research institute | 22:46 |
| QuantumG | SU = anti-intelligence institute | 22:46 |
| QuantumG | oh wait, that makes it sound like spy shit | 22:46 |
| kanzure | well, i didn't mean singularity university, but yes they are technically now in possession of the singularity institute brand | 22:46 |
| QuantumG | I just mean it's where otherwise intelligent people go to die | 22:47 |
| kanzure | australia? | 22:47 |
| QuantumG | SU | 22:47 |
| fenn | stupid university | 22:47 |
| fenn | biblioleaks.org is basically what aaron swartz almost did. biblio just means book | 22:48 |
| kanzure | biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (twice) | http://gnusha.org/logs http://diyhpl.us/wiki | friends don't let friends go to singularity university | 22:48 |
| fenn | "all your books are belong to us" | 22:49 |
| QuantumG | screen for people with real potential, then fill their heads with save the world nonsense | 22:49 |
| kanzure | oops | 22:49 |
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| -!- kanzure changed the topic of ##hplusroadmap to: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (twice) | http://gnusha.org/logs http://diyhpl.us/wiki | friends don't let friends go to singularity university | 22:49 | |
| fenn | QuantumG: i got the impression the people who were at SU had more money than sense or time | 22:49 |
| @kanzure | i think that singularity university is actually informative for their members (who are not expected to have a high-level overview of biology or whatever) | 22:50 |
| fenn | students at* | 22:50 |
| @kanzure | but mainly you spend $25k to meet other people who are able to spend $25k on talking about this stuff | 22:50 |
| QuantumG | fenn: that too, but they pay for the scholarships for the people with actual talent | 22:50 |
| @kanzure | it would be the equivalent of me handing out one-on-one sessions for $10k/pop | 22:50 |
| fenn | oh they have scholarships? | 22:50 |
| @kanzure | they have a few freebie spots | 22:51 |
| @kanzure | they used to have more but nobody was paying, etc | 22:51 |
| fenn | well anyway, what can you accomplish in a few weeks | 22:51 |
| @kanzure | it's just andrew hessel lecturing a lot | 22:51 |
| @kanzure | and others | 22:51 |
| @kanzure | so basically just watch a bunch of andrew hessel videos on youtube and you're done | 22:51 |
| QuantumG | yeah, and way to take Merkle and turn him into a full time lecturer with no research outlet | 22:52 |
| @kanzure | for the longest time i was only aware of merkle from the cryonics angle | 22:52 |
| @kanzure | and the nanotech stuff | 22:52 |
| @kanzure | instead of his involvement in public key cryptography | 22:53 |
| QuantumG | yeah, he's like the least known crypto-god on Earth | 22:53 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://www.merkle.com/papers/Thesis1979.pdf | 22:53 |
| paperbot | TypeError: unicode() argument 2 must be string, not None (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/models.py", line 825, in text) | 22:54 |
| @kanzure | oh he was hellman's student | 22:54 |
| @kanzure | right. hrm. | 22:54 |
| ebowden | Oh, who was it here that was working on, or at least following nanoparticle delivery past the blood-brain barrier? | 22:55 |
| fenn | ebowden | 22:56 |
| fenn | oh heh | 22:56 |
| ebowden | Oh, yes? | 22:56 |
| fenn | nevermind me | 22:56 |
| @kanzure | isn't it just easier to inject through the skull? | 22:56 |
| ebowden | Oh, ok. | 22:56 |
| ebowden | Not really desirable for a lot of patients though. | 22:57 |
| Lemminkainen | csf injection is a lot more viable | 22:57 |
| Lemminkainen | ebowden it may have been me you're looking for | 22:58 |
| Lemminkainen | what's up? | 22:58 |
| ebowden | Ah, ok. | 22:58 |
| @kanzure | martin hellman oral history textdump http://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/11299/107353/1/oh375mh.pdf | 22:59 |
| ebowden | Would you alert me if there are any developments in nanoparticle delivery past the blood-brain barrier? | 22:59 |
| Lemminkainen | well I mean there was Rempe's work with ApoE3 not too long ago | 23:03 |
| Lemminkainen | ebowden: http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1742-2094-10-102.pdf | 23:03 |
| ebowden | Thanks. | 23:04 |
| Lemminkainen | sorry, not that one | 23:04 |
| Lemminkainen | this one: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00441-014-1819-7#page-1 | 23:04 |
| ebowden | I didn't mean to say: "Be my slave and tell me all that happens!" So you know. | 23:04 |
| ebowden | Ah, thanks. | 23:04 |
| Lemminkainen | but that was with Polysorbate-80, which (IMO) only has limited capabilities as an NP | 23:05 |
| ebowden | Ah, ok. | 23:05 |
| Lemminkainen | however, been a while since I read through that in any detail so don't quote me | 23:05 |
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| ebowden | Just meant, if there's a breakthrough, or something fairly pertinent, to ask if you would alert me when it happens. | 23:05 |
| ebowden | Ok Lemminkainen. | 23:05 |
| Lemminkainen | I can try to remember but cannot promise anything | 23:05 |
| Lemminkainen | unfortunately I must be somewhat stealthy about some of this stuff | 23:06 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00441-014-1819-7#page-1 | 23:08 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Strategies%20to%20overcome%20the%20barrier%3A%20use%20of%20nanoparticles%20as%20carriers%20and%20modulators%20of%20barrier%20properties.pdf | 23:08 |
| ebowden | Lemminkainen: Oh? Why must you be stealthy? | 23:11 |
| @kanzure | iirc he took money | 23:11 |
| fenn | thief! | 23:11 |
| @kanzure | from pete | 23:11 |
| fenn | peter thief | 23:11 |
| fenn | he changed his name | 23:12 |
| @kanzure | don't bite the hand that feeds you | 23:12 |
| * fenn gnaws on a ham bone | 23:12 | |
| ebowden | LOl | 23:14 |
| Lemminkainen | Mr. Pete has not yet given us funds | 23:14 |
| @kanzure | what's the delay | 23:14 |
| fenn | i wonder if anyone's looked at the economics of extremely shoddy construction robots vs an OSHA certified work safety environment | 23:14 |
| @kanzure | aren't you over 20 | 23:14 |
| Lemminkainen | and the main impetus to be stealthy is that we haven't been able to do a full freedom-to-operate analysis of the full IP landscape and as such tread lightly in discussing our tech | 23:15 |
| @kanzure | don't look at patents or else you'll be sued into oblivion | 23:15 |
| @kanzure | just stay away from those blood documents | 23:15 |
| Lemminkainen | were that that was possible | 23:16 |
| fenn | does ignorance of patents really matter in a lawsuit? | 23:16 |
| @kanzure | yes | 23:16 |
| @kanzure | very yes | 23:16 |
| fenn | why? | 23:16 |
| xentrac | fenn: yes, treble damages for wilful violation | 23:16 |
| fenn | i dont get it | 23:17 |
| @kanzure | chat logs where you're discussing "the '493 patent" are highly incriminating | 23:17 |
| xentrac | not incriminating | 23:17 |
| @kanzure | because you're infringing on their right to coerce you into licensing payments | 23:17 |
| xentrac | patent violation is not a criminal matter | 23:17 |
| @kanzure | oh, right, wrong word | 23:17 |
| @ParahSailin | incivilating | 23:17 |
| fenn | highly uncivil | 23:17 |
| fenn | let us never speak of it again | 23:17 |
| xentrac | the wilful violation thing got a lot less bad a couple of years ago | 23:17 |
| xentrac | there was a bad court decision in the 80s | 23:18 |
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| @kanzure | how is brazilian patent law? | 23:18 |
| fenn | but seriously, how is it worse if you actually tried to look up a patent. i mean either way you probably came up with the idea on your own | 23:18 |
| xentrac | that ruled that if you looked at a patent and decided you weren't violating it and went ahead anyway, without consulting a patent attorney, and later you were found to be in violation | 23:18 |
| @kanzure | aren't all the countries black balled by WIPO/WHO to have the same shitty patent laws? | 23:18 |
| xentrac | then your violation was therefore wilful | 23:18 |
| xentrac | no, there is substantial variation in patent laws from country to country | 23:19 |
| xentrac | despite WIPO/WTO blackmail | 23:19 |
| @kanzure | and by "later found to be in violation" means, by a judge/jury, right? | 23:19 |
| xentrac | right | 23:19 |
| xentrac | is there anybody around here who's interested in hearing-aid hacking? the current hearing aids on the market are not only expensive but also shitty | 23:19 |
| @kanzure | blah someone in here has one. who the hell is it. veb? | 23:20 |
| @kanzure | where is veb.. his exploded a few weeks ago actually. | 23:20 |
| Lemminkainen | fenn if the other party can demonstrate you had prior knowledge of what their patent covered and violated it anyway, they can sue you for damages | 23:20 |
| @kanzure | my notes indicate he had a cochlear implant, not a hearing-aid. | 23:20 |
| fenn | i'm interested in sensory expansion; ultrasound, extreme directional amplification, etc. | 23:20 |
| xentrac | it seems like you ought to be able to do dramatically better with an old analog hearing aid output hooked up to an Android cell phone doing beamforming on a microphone phased array | 23:20 |
| fenn | Lemminkainen: can't they sue anyway? isn't that the point of the patent system? otherwise everone could just say I never saw any patent and get away with violation | 23:21 |
| xentrac | Lemminkainen: they can sue you for damages even if you didn't have prior knowledge, but if the violation was wilful, they can get treble damages | 23:21 |
| xentrac | although that's limited somewhat by laches | 23:21 |
| Lemminkainen | you never let it get to the point of damages | 23:21 |
| AshleyWaffle | whats wrong with singuni lol | 23:21 |
| Lemminkainen | you settle long before that | 23:21 |
| Darius | i'm very interested in hearing-aid hacking, though short on time right now | 23:21 |
| @kanzure | AshleyWaffle: they want to kill transhumanists. that's what's wrong. | 23:21 |
| xentrac | the reason you settle is so that they don't get a judgment against you for damages, Lemminkainen | 23:21 |
| AshleyWaffle | lol? | 23:21 |
| AshleyWaffle | source? | 23:21 |
| @kanzure | AshleyWaffle: it's their entire mission! | 23:21 |
| Lemminkainen | exactly xentrac | 23:22 |
| fenn | xentrac: how does the software know where to point the beam? | 23:22 |
| @kanzure | AshleyWaffle: what do you mean source... their mission isn't "sit around while super-beings fuck up the planet", their mission is "be first to do anything AI related, or otherwise prevent it from happening" | 23:22 |
| @ParahSailin | singuni is trying to build the basilisk | 23:22 |
| xentrac | fenn: it can scan the field to find the main sound sources, subtract the ones that don't sond like people talking, and then pick one of the others to emphasize | 23:22 |
| @ParahSailin | and thwart everyone else's attempts | 23:22 |
| AshleyWaffle | hahahah | 23:22 |
| Darius | xentrac - just what i was thinking of this past week :) probably influenced by your old posts | 23:23 |
| xentrac | more or less like what people's brains do | 23:23 |
| fenn | can we please stop throwing around the word basilisk in inappropriate contexts | 23:23 |
| xentrac | yeah, I think there are some that actually do something like that already | 23:23 |
| xentrac | "cocktail party mode" | 23:23 |
| xentrac | .g cocktail party heareing aid | 23:23 |
| yoleaux | http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/healthreport/monday-february-16th/5234802 | 23:23 |
| xentrac | shit | 23:23 |
| QuantumG | why, do you have a basilisk to grind? | 23:23 |
| xentrac | stupid spelling | 23:24 |
| @kanzure | yeah, i want to record all conversations at a conference simultaneously | 23:24 |
| @kanzure | i can only type so quickly | 23:24 |
| @kanzure | so ideally i could capture more than one conversation at a time | 23:24 |
| Darius | xetnrac - iirc they use a few microphones, which is a start | 23:24 |
| fenn | gotta catch em all | 23:24 |
| xentrac | Darius's hearing aid was also oscillating loudly when he was visiting here in Buenos Aires, at frequencies that he couldn't hear | 23:24 |
| @kanzure | hey at least i have the hat from the official pokemon league | 23:24 |
| xentrac | but to the point where the noise was painful from meters away | 23:25 |
| fenn | kanzure: the hat with all the microphones on it? | 23:25 |
| xentrac | I can only imagine what kind of havoc that had to be wreaking inside his inner ear | 23:25 |
| @kanzure | having any sort of audio control by mobile phone interface might be nice | 23:25 |
| xentrac | kanzure: it sounds like introducing veb and Darius might be a really good idea | 23:26 |
| fenn | my impression of "hearing aid" is that they're small and fiddly and hard to build | 23:26 |
| @kanzure | veb might be dead, haven't seen him since the incident | 23:26 |
| xentrac | they don't have to be small | 23:26 |
| xentrac | ...? | 23:26 |
| xentrac | they're much better if they're small of course | 23:26 |
| Darius | fenn -- i was thinking glasses with an array of mikes could work out | 23:26 |
| xentrac | especially for kids | 23:26 |
| fenn | well i've never seen anyone walking around with a parabolic dish strapped to their head | 23:26 |
| @kanzure | that's because you don't know anyone with a sense of style or fashion | 23:27 |
| Darius | heheh | 23:27 |
| fenn | Darius: yeah that's pretty much what i was thinking | 23:27 |
| Lemminkainen | how about bone conduction? | 23:27 |
| fenn | micky mouse ears | 23:27 |
| xentrac | you could probably hide a parabolic dish inside a top hat | 23:27 |
| Darius | bone conduction is only appropriate for certain types of hearing loss | 23:27 |
| Lemminkainen | I wasn't talking about loss, I was talking about augmentation | 23:27 |
| xentrac | Lemminkainen: there are three separate issues: how do you get input, how do you do processing, and how do you get output | 23:27 |
| Darius | Lemminkainen: go wild then | 23:28 |
| xentrac | Lemminkainen: I was talking about the processing part; you're talking about the output part | 23:28 |
| Lemminkainen | corect | 23:28 |
| @kanzure | whatever happened to the tongue interfaces | 23:29 |
| QuantumG | the usual thing.. they failed at marketting | 23:29 |
| fenn | gee i wonder why | 23:29 |
| QuantumG | where's your DIY version? | 23:29 |
| xentrac | kanzure: what was the incident? | 23:29 |
| fenn | who is veb? | 23:29 |
| @kanzure | xentrac: "oh fuck there's blood, oh fuck i am calling 911, see you assholes later" then nothing | 23:29 |
| fenn | am i veb? | 23:29 |
| @kanzure | you are not veb | 23:30 |
| fenn | why was ve bleeding? | 23:30 |
| @kanzure | cochlear implant problems | 23:30 |
| xentrac | aha | 23:30 |
| @kanzure | http://spottedsun.com/my-journey-to-a-cochlear-implant/ | 23:30 |
| fenn | that could definitely cause some problems | 23:30 |
| xentrac | you don't have any contact information for him or anyone who knows him? | 23:30 |
| @kanzure | veb on freenode | 23:31 |
| xentrac | looks like he last posted to the blog in July | 23:32 |
| @kanzure | incident was last month | 23:32 |
| @kanzure | 15:06 < veb> I am in a lot of pain right now. | 23:33 |
| @kanzure | 15:06 < veb> I feel like there's blood sort of spurting? upwards? | 23:33 |
| @kanzure | 15:06 < veb> but blood leaking from wound | 23:33 |
| @kanzure | 15:09 < veb> right. where's my ambulance. i'm dizzy | 23:33 |
| @kanzure | 15:09 < veb> maybe it went to pick up my son first. | 23:33 |
| fenn | idle : 2 days 20 hours 32 mins 59 secs [signon: Sun Apr 6 05:29:06 2014] | 23:34 |
| fenn | maybe he decided hplus wasn't for him | 23:35 |
| @kanzure | this was 2013-08-this was 2014-03-24 | 23:35 |
| @kanzure | he's never been in here | 23:35 |
| Darius | ugh | 23:35 |
| @kanzure | oops sorry for badtext | 23:36 |
| @kanzure | it was 2014-03-24 | 23:36 |
| * Darius has never been, uh, sanguine about getting such an implant. | 23:36 | |
| @kanzure | it's the only brain-computer interface that does anything interesting | 23:36 |
| Darius | yeah, but they're all closed source, for a start. | 23:36 |
| fenn | are there wires going in or is it charged with a coil or something? | 23:36 |
| @ParahSailin | theres no wires going through | 23:37 |
| xentrac | "Even if you have moderate hearing impairment and you have the most modern hearing aids you can get, you are still not going to get all of the information you need to solve the cocktail party problem. So the most advanced hearing aids that are currently available really still don't help very much in that sort of crowded, busy kind of environment." from the article .g linked earlier | 23:37 |
| fenn | Darius: ha it's worse than that, you don't even have the right to access your own data, much less own it | 23:37 |
| fenn | at least in the US | 23:37 |
| xentrac | "And, you know, I think the technology is not that far away from actually being able to assist in this area." | 23:37 |
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| Darius | fenn - regular hearing aids kind of suck that way too, which is why i'm interested in creating my own | 23:37 |
| @kanzure | what are the processing requirements for phased array microphone stuff? | 23:37 |
| fenn | xentrac: do they not preserve phase? what does that mean "not get all the information" | 23:38 |
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| xentrac | fenn: I don't have any idea why moderate hearing impairment makes the cocktail party problem so much worse | 23:39 |
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| fenn | Darius: i've been meaning to make a wearable audio recorder for several years now | 23:39 |
| xentrac | I have a terrible time with it myself despite having no significant hearing loss | 23:39 |
| xentrac | probably from autism | 23:39 |
| @kanzure | have you tested stimulants and whether thta improves audio processing? | 23:40 |
| fenn | the auditory tract is "highly stereotyped" meaning the cell connections are mostly determined by genetics and growth patterns, rather than learning | 23:40 |
| @kanzure | *that | 23:40 |
| Darius | fenn - 'audio augmented reality' for people with normal hearing ought to be interesting and more practical than the video kind still, though i probably don't need to point that out to people in this channel | 23:40 |
| fenn | i agree, it's the only realistic interface to 360 degree radar data | 23:40 |
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| fenn | that camera thing for the blind (vOICe) is the wrong way to do it | 23:41 |
| xentrac | kanzure: I don't actually have a good test to demonstrate the problem on myself | 23:41 |
| @ParahSailin | heh kanzure's answer to everything | 23:42 |
| xentrac | like, some kind of word discrimination test with background noise would work | 23:42 |
| xentrac | after stimulant-induced psychosis in my childhood I'm chary of experimenting with them though | 23:42 |
| fenn | you want to have a continuous stream of diff data, and some mapping to timbre and pitch and angle, probably using something like aubio | 23:42 |
| @kanzure | i definitely have trouble with random audible conversations, but sometimes i for some reason have a buffer where i can check what someone said to me while i wasn't listening | 23:42 |
| fenn | the diffs are the things in the environment that change, so when you move your head you tend to see edges more than fuzzy blobs | 23:42 |
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| xentrac | fenn: are you in the Bay Area? | 23:43 |
| xentrac | I forget | 23:43 |
| fenn | xentrac: not anymore, or not currently, or something | 23:43 |
| fenn | i am there in spirit :P | 23:43 |
| Lemminkainen | fenn is a gas | 23:43 |
| xentrac | ah | 23:43 |
| fenn | i am there in gaseous form | 23:43 |
| @kanzure | is there an adequate explanation for why a room sounds different when you turn your head? | 23:43 |
| @ParahSailin | phasing | 23:44 |
| xentrac | I was thinking maybe you two could go hang out and try out building a wearable audio recorder | 23:44 |
| fenn | your ears reflect different frequencies from different angles | 23:44 |
| @kanzure | i've speculated blood/capillary reasons, but there's maybe audio reasons | 23:44 |
| Darius | i will be in NYC in may, and LA after | 23:44 |
| @kanzure | ParahSailin: well that's a boring answer. why would the brain care about that? | 23:45 |
| @kanzure | ParahSailin: the audible environment doesn't significantly change just because you move your head | 23:45 |
| fenn | relative phase is very important for determining angle | 23:45 |
| xentrac | Darius: the roboticists in my office are using Android cellphones with some success to do the non-real-time part of robot control | 23:45 |
| xentrac | ex-Willow-Garage | 23:45 |
| Darius | the ears are designed to capture directional info in some complicated way i don't understand | 23:46 |
| xentrac | some at Savioke now | 23:46 |
| Darius | xentrac: great | 23:46 |
| Darius | i wonder if they need to use the GPU | 23:46 |
| xentrac | Ping showed me that if you bend the top of your ear down, it totally screws up your detection of directionality | 23:46 |
| xentrac | I don't think so | 23:46 |
| fenn | there was a video game where you had to navigate a maze, but there was no visual interface, just headphones | 23:47 |
| fenn | it probably would have been cooler with head tracking | 23:47 |
| fenn | king something | 23:47 |
| @kanzure | fenn: http://www.tursiops.cc/aura/ | 23:48 |
| @kanzure | ugh the web sucks | 23:48 |
| @kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20030211120747/http://tursiops.cc/aura/ | 23:48 |
| @kanzure | "Aura is an experimental puzzle game where the you must navigate through trap-riddled mazes. The catch is that you are blind, and must rely exclusively on your sense of hearing to survive." | 23:48 |
| Darius | neat idea, retrospectively obvious | 23:48 |
| fenn | modern cellphones pretty much guarantee we'll never have a good auditory OS/interface | 23:49 |
| xentrac | fenn: why? | 23:49 |
| xentrac | kanzure: once we figure out how to fix hearing aids maybe we can fix the web too | 23:50 |
| fenn | the lure of the touchscreen is too strong | 23:50 |
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| @kanzure | just put an autistic kid in a basement somewhere and ask him things | 23:50 |
| @kanzure | and he will remember the web for you | 23:50 |
| fenn | just put ted nelson in a ten dimensional hyperspace grid, and he will arrange orthogonal lines for you | 23:51 |
| xmj | fenn: yes because touchscreen works so well with google glass. | 23:51 |
| xmj | -duh | 23:51 |
| fenn | xmj: i worry | 23:51 |
| @kanzure | xentrac: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Intense%20world%20syndrome%20-%20an%20alternative%20hypothesis%20for%20autism%20-%20Markram.pdf | 23:51 |
| xentrac | kanzure: yeah, saw that | 23:51 |
| @kanzure | xentrac: which is especially interesting considering that this guy now has a billion euros for his whole brain emulation project | 23:51 |
| xentrac | fenn: I think T.V. Raman has already made a pretty impressive amount of progress on that | 23:52 |
| xentrac | he isn't going to be distracted from it by touchscreens | 23:52 |
| @kanzure | fenn: btw, that p90 guy is on freenode | 23:53 |
| fenn | context please | 23:54 |
| fenn | p90 means a few different things to me | 23:54 |
| @kanzure | fenn: http://www.loper-os.org/vintage/paralleleye/eye.html | 23:55 |
| @kanzure | p4.. damn. | 23:55 |
| @kanzure | stupid numbers. | 23:55 |
| fenn | i dont understand why Auditory CSS needs to be its own thing; why not just ... CSS | 23:55 |
| fenn | sorry Aural CSS | 23:55 |
| @kanzure | because css is awful and it will murder your soul? | 23:55 |
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| fenn | i've come to like css | 23:56 |
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| fenn | the problem is most people dont understand how it works so they write bad css | 23:56 |
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| fenn | also, for a long time we had no way to interact with the parse tree, but now chrome inspector does a pretty good job | 23:56 |
| fenn | i guess it's confusing because the order in a file doesn't matter, it's like VHDL or parallel programming | 23:58 |
| @kanzure | also: subtle side effects across multiple rendering engines makes it hard when your fix changes things in another engine that was rendering correctly earlier | 23:59 |
| fenn | that's not CSS's problem | 23:59 |
| @kanzure | well it turns into my problem | 23:59 |
| fenn | right | 23:59 |
| @kanzure | and brain tumors | 23:59 |
| @kanzure | lots of repressed rage | 23:59 |
| --- Log closed Wed Apr 23 00:00:05 2014 | ||
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