| --- Log opened Sun Apr 27 00:00:16 2014 | ||
| --- Day changed Sun Apr 27 2014 | ||
| fenn | with a plenoptic lens array between them | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| fenn | the number of lenses defines the angular resolution | 00:00 |
| fenn | (this particular solution has nothing to do with phased arrays) | 00:01 |
| superkuh | paperbot: http://journals.aps.org/prl/pdf/10.1103/PhysRevLett.112.164802 | 00:02 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/936bd8c1a8e542ad1d18c8853ba1a37.pdf | 00:02 |
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| fenn | fun physics demo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arago_spot | 00:09 |
| fenn | "Recently, the Arago spot experiment has been demonstrated with a supersonic expansion beam of deuterium molecules, so-called neutral matter waves." | 00:11 |
| fenn | easier to understand than the double slit experiment at least | 00:13 |
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| fenn | xentrac: this is sort of the inverse of your microphone idea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_field_synthesis | 00:24 |
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| AshleyWaffle | music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iySE-ymD7UA | 00:39 |
| fenn | AshleyWaffle: thank you | 00:40 |
| AshleyWaffle | fenn: uh huh | 00:40 |
| AshleyWaffle | music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ryg68WWIA4 | 00:40 |
| AshleyWaffle | fenn: want my lastfm library? | 00:40 |
| fenn | no | 00:40 |
| AshleyWaffle | ok | 00:40 |
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| gradstudentbot | Hey, I got 100% yield! Oh wait, no. | 00:42 |
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| fenn | so, tunable perovskite laser diodes, that would be neat | 01:08 |
| fenn | apparently henry snaith has demonstrated lasing in lead (III) iodide-chloride | 01:10 |
| fenn | methylammonium lead iodide with some iodides substituted with chlorine | 01:12 |
| fenn | http://phys.org/news/2014-03-revolutionary-solar-cells-lasers.html | 01:12 |
| fenn | the cool thing about perovskites is they are easy to make with simple lab equipment like spin coaters and heaters | 01:13 |
| fenn | i wonder if they scintillate | 01:15 |
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| fenn | in death valley there is a sand dune that makes a noise when you disturb the piled up sand grains, and the noise disturbs the sand grains and make more noise, and it reverberates around for hundreds of meters through the dune. after a little while of this you get the impression that you can actually see what the structure of the dune is, underneath all that sand, sort of a glowing echo chamber of | 01:46 |
| fenn | light | 01:46 |
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| fenn | who here's heard of "Lutetium", element 71? | 02:09 |
| fenn | damn time portals | 02:09 |
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| xmj | fenn: always makes me think of Asterix. | 02:18 |
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| mosasaur | Somewhere, deep inside a Kruel blog, is a Baez link where Eli is debunked by their own hero Egan. | 02:22 |
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| AshleyWaffle | http://www.okcupid.com/profile/AshleyWaffle | 02:58 |
| AshleyWaffle | meep | 02:58 |
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| archels | hm, what was that website that let you create an online profile/avatar which would "live on" after your death? | 06:21 |
| archels | I remember seeing this in science fiction, but I think someone actually built this at one point | 06:22 |
| gradstudentbot | I think my PI hates me. | 06:23 |
| xmj | gradstudentbot: 3.14 | 06:52 |
| gradstudentbot | Does this look contaminated to you? | 06:52 |
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| kanzure | archels: there's been a few of those and they were all bad | 07:21 |
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| FourFire | so Fenn, you've got a recent copy of wikipedia? | 07:33 |
| FourFire | archels, yeah I've heard of it, can't recall the name | 07:39 |
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| eudoxia | it was a .me domain and i'm fairly certain it was on HN | 08:20 |
| eudoxia | you know when you want to google something but can't quite remember any keywords? | 08:20 |
| kanzure | it wasn't just that one | 08:20 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: i didn't know of any others | 08:22 |
| kanzure | it had inurl:cyber | 08:22 |
| eudoxia | well of course it did | 08:22 |
| eudoxia | .g inurl:cyber inurl:me | 08:23 |
| yoleaux | http://thoughtcatalog.com/anonymous/2014/02/i-was-cyber-stalked-by-the-woman-my-boyfriend-cheated-on-me-with/ | 08:23 |
| kanzure | ughhh | 08:25 |
| kanzure | http://www.cyberev.org/default.aspx | 08:25 |
| kanzure | i hate the world | 08:25 |
| kanzure | "Martine Rothblatt: Cofounder and Treasurer of Terasem Movement, Inc. and original creator of CyBeRev" | 08:26 |
| kanzure | .w martine rothblatt | 08:26 |
| yoleaux | Sorry, I couldn't find a definition for 'martine rothblatt'. | 08:26 |
| kanzure | .wiki martine rothblatt | 08:26 |
| eudoxia | ohh i very vaguely remember this | 08:26 |
| gradstudentbot | Are there any of those hamster ovaries left? | 08:26 |
| eudoxia | oh god they even have the "laugh at you" quote | 08:27 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martine_Rothblatt "She left Geostar in 1990 to create both WorldSpace and Sirius Satellite Radio. She left Sirius in 1992 and WorldSpace in 1997 to become the full-time Chairman and CEO of United Therapeutics Corporation." | 08:27 |
| kanzure | "Rothblatt is responsible for launching several communications satellite companies, including the first nationwide vehicle location system (Geostar, 1983), the first private international spacecom project (PanAmSat, 1984), the first global satellite radio network (WorldSpace, 1990), and the first non-geostationary satellite-to-car broadcasting system (Sirius Satellite Radio, 1990). As an attorney-entrepreneur, Rothblatt was also responsible ... | 08:27 |
| kanzure | ... for leading the efforts to obtain worldwide approval, via new international treaties, of satellite orbit/spectrum allocations for space-based navigation services (1987) and for direct-to-person satellite radio transmissions (1992)." | 08:27 |
| archels | ahh yes Terasem | 08:30 |
| kanzure | why would the neuroscientist be interested in terasem /me ponders | 08:30 |
| archels | https://www.lifenaut.com | 08:30 |
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| eudoxia | http://www.cyberev.org/SpaceCast.aspx | 08:31 |
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| eudoxia | oh my god the talking thing | 08:31 |
| archels | kanzure: I wanted to use it as a reference in my paper on mind uploading | 08:31 |
| kanzure | whaaat | 08:32 |
| eudoxia | yeah, i thought the strategy was "pretend they don't exist and deny any connections" | 08:33 |
| archels | this might be the better option | 08:33 |
| kanzure | i highly recommend reading this: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/brain-emulation-roadmap-report.pdf | 08:34 |
| kanzure | and figuring out what happened to eleitl's gangbangers: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/nematodeuploadproject/ | 08:34 |
| archels | it was meant as an example of how new technologies allow people to express their death anxiety in a novel way | 08:35 |
| archels | the WBE roadmap is showing its age a little | 08:35 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: was there ever a follow-up to the WBE roadmap? | 08:35 |
| eudoxia | 2008 was, like, uh, 6 years ago | 08:35 |
| archels | according to Sandberg, not really (I asked) | 08:36 |
| kanzure | the follow-up is whatever todd huffman is doing at 3scan | 08:36 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/hplus-summit-2009/todd-huffman/ | 08:37 |
| kanzure | http://3scan.com/ | 08:37 |
| archels | that's just one piece of the puzzle though | 08:39 |
| archels | (the bottleneck? who knows) | 08:39 |
| kanzure | what is your opinion of all the neuron models in modeldb? | 08:39 |
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| archels | some of them are pretty good, such as some from Yiota Poirazi | 08:42 |
| archels | plasticity and learning is underrepresented, though | 08:42 |
| kanzure | what's over-represented? | 08:43 |
| archels | oh, there's also PSICS | 08:43 |
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| archels | run-of-the-mill models that explain one thing and not anything else are overrepresented | 08:43 |
| kanzure | isn't it the job of models to do integration stuff | 08:44 |
| archels | (this goes under the heading 'a computational neuroscientist's lament') | 08:44 |
| archels | that rarely ends up happening | 08:44 |
| archels | organizations like the INCF are pushing for more integrative work | 08:45 |
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| archels | I think they have a GSoC on converting a range of models to a lingua franca, PyNN or so | 08:45 |
| archels | then of course there's the HBP, whose specic stated aim is to build a vastly integrated computer simulation | 08:46 |
| kanzure | hahah "Have you done any research on this? computingforgood.com has done this for months (for Ripple) but is shutting down the project this month due to people constantly gaming the system in unpredictable ways." | 09:08 |
| kanzure | duh | 09:08 |
| kanzure | 19:08 < cpopell`sleep> learning successes: my python script now successfully parses 'mmkPa' as millimeter kiloPascal | 09:11 |
| kanzure | argh why does nobody fucking listen | 09:11 |
| xentrac | are you asking how pepole choose to direct their attention? | 09:12 |
| xentrac | or s/choose to // | 09:12 |
| kanzure | no, i'm asking why cpopell`sleep ignored all of the good suggestions he was given | 09:12 |
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| kanzure | (in here) | 09:12 |
| kanzure | what's the point of talking to people if you're just going to ignore them | 09:12 |
| xentrac | usually I don't fucking listen because I'm doing something else | 09:14 |
| xentrac | such as sleeping | 09:14 |
| kanzure | yes, well, he was asking for advice on his source code, and then advice was provided with really good arguments about why gnu units is useful | 09:15 |
| kanzure | also, i'm not very sure what sleep is or why i can only partially hear stuff when i am sleeping | 09:16 |
| xentrac | gnu units is not capable for parsing 'mmkPa' | 09:16 |
| kanzure | that doesn't mean the code should be thrown out | 09:17 |
| kanzure | and also, you could possibly just do a grammar translation layer on top of your input | 09:17 |
| kanzure | to force it into coherent formatting | 09:17 |
| xentrac | that sounds like what cpopell's code has achieved so far | 09:20 |
| kanzure | if you say so https://github.com/cpopell/jeweler/blob/master/prefix.py | 09:20 |
| kanzure | "Ultrasound generator/speaker systems are sold as electronic pest control devices, which are claimed to frighten away rodents and insects, but there is no scientific evidence that the devices work.[16][17][18]" that is a funny unsubstantiated claim to make | 09:25 |
| chris_99 | what's that from | 09:26 |
| kanzure | just glancing at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrasound to see if i missed anything | 09:27 |
| chris_99 | ah | 09:28 |
| kanzure | didn't know this one, "A formerly popular consumer application of ultrasound was in television remote controls for adjusting volume and changing channels. Introduced by Zenith in the late 1950s, the system used a hand-held remote control containing short rod resonators struck by small hammers, and a microphone on the set. Filters and detectors discriminated between the various operations. The principal advantages were that no battery was ... | 09:30 |
| kanzure | ... needed in the hand-held control box, and unlike radio waves, the ultrasound was unlikely to affect neighboring sets. Ultrasound remained in use until displaced by infrared systems starting in the late 1980s.[43]" | 09:30 |
| kanzure | is zenith even around anymore | 09:30 |
| xentrac | not as a company | 09:31 |
| xentrac | it's part of LG | 09:32 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://scitation.aip.org/content/asa/journal/jasa/94/4/10.1121/1.407516 | 09:40 |
| kanzure | .title | 09:40 |
| yoleaux | The laser‐generated ultrasonic phased array: Analysis and experiments | 09:40 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/The%20lasergenerated%20ultrasonic%20phased%20array%3A%20Analysis%20and%20experiments.txt | 09:41 |
| kanzure | "Focused ultrasonicwaves have been generated in a solid by irradiating its surface with a multiple beam‐pulsed YAG laser. A set of 16 rectilinear sources is used, equivalent to a phased array of ultrasonic transducers. Longitudinal waves are focused in the sample by introducing an appropriate time delay between each laser pulse. The elastic waves are detected either by a broadband optical heterodyne probe to analyze the wide ultrasonic ... | 09:41 |
| kanzure | ... signal spectrum (0–20 MHz), or by a narrow‐band piezoelectric transducer to achieve the sectorial acoustic beam scanning of the sample." | 09:41 |
| mosasaur | 20 MHz ultrasonic? Is that even possible? | 09:44 |
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| xentrac | mosasaur: yes, you can get over a megahertz even in air; it just doesn't propagate very far | 10:03 |
| xentrac | solids and liquids have their molecules a thousand times closer together, so you should be able to get a thousand times shorter wavelengths | 10:04 |
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| mosasaur | xentrac: Yes, I'm catching up via WP now. I was surprised because sound travels so much slower than light speed. These frequencies are rather common for radio transmissions. | 10:08 |
| kanzure | "Magnetic resonance surgery using heat waves produced with focussed ultrasound" | 10:12 |
| kanzure | oh, the magnetic resonance is for imaging. nevermind. | 10:13 |
| * mosasaur wonders if one can generate an em signal by vibrating a permanent magnet | 10:20 | |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nn2009535 | 10:34 |
| kanzure | .title | 10:34 |
| yoleaux | Graphene-on-Paper Sound Source Devices | 10:34 |
| paperbot | XMLSyntaxError: None (file "/home/bryan/code/paperbot/phenny/modules/scihub.py", line 51, in _go) | 10:42 |
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| kanzure | fenn: here's someone steering an ultrasonic field with an LCD as their spatial light modulator, http://www.loreti.it/download/pdf/aom/teoria/oa_spie_paper.pdf | 11:02 |
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| kanzure | "In principle, such an ultrasound emitting surface can steer the ultrasonic field in any desired way, i.e. the beam can be focused to points, lines, arrays, or pre-calculated three-dimensional pressure distributions in the water tank. Furthermore, the ultrasonic field can be manipulated at video rate by projecting temporally changing LCD images to the surface. The resolution of this optical element is determined by the LCD resolution, i.e. ... | 11:14 |
| kanzure | ... there are 800x600 independently controllable phased elements, which is much higher than in technical applications using phased piezo arrays." | 11:14 |
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| kanzure | oh neat the FDA approved rTMS for the treatment of depression | 11:42 |
| kanzure | quick, everyone become hopeless and boring | 11:42 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1134/S1063771012010083 | 11:54 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/1270ea227bc1060e1c2aa3fd703f7e37.txt | 11:54 |
| kanzure | argh researchgate.net is down | 11:54 |
| gradstudentbot | Can I borrow some sulphuric acid? | 11:55 |
| ParahSailin | oh, is researchgate actually a good thing, i always run into it when searching and assumed it was a spam site because it never linked to original source | 11:56 |
| kanzure | it is usually a bad thing | 11:57 |
| kanzure | but they host pdfs sometimes | 11:57 |
| FourFire | rTMS | 11:57 |
| kanzure | their headers are fucked up though, so ultimately they are bad | 11:57 |
| FourFire | is that related at all to TransCranialStimulation? | 11:57 |
| kanzure | "We're rolling out some new features! ResearchGate is currently down for maintenance, | 11:58 |
| FourFire | kanzure, I am hopeless and boring | 11:58 |
| kanzure | but we'll be back online very soon. Thank you for your patience." | 11:58 |
| FourFire | gradstudentbot, one does not simply "borrow" acid, of any kind | 11:58 |
| gradstudentbot | Who used the last of the growth medium? | 11:58 |
| kanzure | i was gonna get: | 11:58 |
| kanzure | http://www.researchgate.net/publication/229066647_Gavrilov_L.R._Tsirulnikov_E.M._Focused_ultrasound_as_a_tool_to_input_sensory_information_to_humans_(Review)._Acoustical_Physics_2012_v._58_1_1-21/file/9fcfd4ffe7336713f1.pdf | 11:58 |
| ParahSailin | when its a russian author, always search libgen first | 12:06 |
| ParahSailin | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016%2F0006-8993%2877%2991030-7 | 12:06 |
| kanzure | they sound spiteful | 12:08 |
| gradstudentbot | I think the centrifuge is broken. | 12:09 |
| kanzure | "The neuromodulation produced by MRgHIFU was elicited by focally heating deep-brain nuclei to around 48 degrees celsius for about 10 seconds during transcranial transmission of 0.65 MHz continuous-wave US at intensities <550 W/cm^2 from 1,204 transducers operating in a phased array[45]. In the present report, we describe an approach where lower intensity US (23.87 W/cm^2) transmitted from a single-element 0.5 MHz FUS transducer for 500 ms can ... | 12:14 |
| kanzure | ... be used to transiently modulate brain activity in the cortex of humans." | 12:14 |
| kanzure | 48 celsius? | 12:14 |
| kanzure | uh, 1024 transducers | 12:16 |
| kanzure | not 1204 | 12:16 |
| kanzure | weird copypaste artifacts maybe | 12:16 |
| kanzure | ultrasound-induced membrane contraction (21-45% volumetric reduction) observed in live imaging of cells, "this shrinkage was found to be transient, as the sonicated cells had recovered (at a rate of size increase of 0.4%–0.9% per minute) to their pre-exposure size within 30 min after the end of exposure" | 12:26 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: wrong paper, but close enough | 12:27 |
| kanzure | the first author is rather interesting | 12:28 |
| kanzure | leonid r. gavrilov | 12:29 |
| kanzure | because gavrilov is a name that shows up on the gerontology research group mailing list pretty often | 12:29 |
| kanzure | with his wife natalia | 12:29 |
| kanzure | Leonid Gavrilov <gavrilov@longevity-science.org> | 12:29 |
| kanzure | i think he was in san diego last week | 12:30 |
| kanzure | these are webfacts. | 12:30 |
| ParahSailin | my ezproxy cant get this one | 12:31 |
| kanzure | aww it's a different fucking leonid gavrilov http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Gavrilov | 12:32 |
| kanzure | author is leonid r. gavrilov and this is leonid a. gavrilov | 12:32 |
| kanzure | "i was reading an article on openwetware wiki, and in this article there was a link to a recipe to make your own peptone from soy or casein but the links are dead or ask for password, does someone have these documents ? here is the article in question http://openwetware.org/wiki/DIYbio/FAQ/Methods the link to the documents for making peptone are at the end of the article under "Homebrew Growth Media"" | 12:45 |
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| kanzure | the acoustic stimulation of retina stuff is neat. | 13:42 |
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| kanzure | "Piezoelectric and piezooptic effects in porous silicon" http://physics.technion.ac.il/~eribak/VinikmanRibak.pdf | 13:52 |
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| kanzure | .title http://warmplace.ru/soft/ans/ | 14:17 |
| yoleaux | WarmPlace.Ru. Virtual ANS Spectral Synthesizer | 14:17 |
| kanzure | "Virtual ANS is a software simulator of the unique Russian synthesizer ANS - photoelectronic microtonal/spectral musical instrument created by Russian engineer Evgeny Murzin from 1938 to 1958. Murzin named his invention in honour of the composer Alexander Nikolayevich Scriabin." | 14:17 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANS_synthesizer "The technological basis of his invention was the method of graphical sound recording used in cinematography (developed in Russia concurrently with USA), which made it possible to obtain a visible image of a sound wave, as well as to realize the opposite goal—synthesizing a sound from an artificially drawn sound spectrogram." | 14:17 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-27156775 | 14:25 |
| jrayhawk | .title | 14:25 |
| yoleaux | China: Firm 3D prints 10 full-sized houses in a day | 14:25 |
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| AshleyWaffle | music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhGe-YZkIaw | 15:42 |
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| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301562907001081 | 16:01 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/8061e3fe74ff724033fbaf92ed1e1488.txt | 16:01 |
| kanzure | was "Freehand 3D Ultrasound Reconstruction Algorithms—A Review" | 16:02 |
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| kanzure | huh someone did a phased array speaker on kickstarter a while back http://www.soundlazer.com/?page_id=2947 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/richardhaberkern/soundlazer | 16:25 |
| kanzure | music instrument http://www.airharp.com/ | 16:28 |
| kanzure | xentrac: http://web.archive.org/web/20020212111509/http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/silverman96huge.html "The Huge Microphone Array(HMA) is a project that started in February 1994 to design, construct, debug, and test a real-time 512-microphone array system and to develop algorithms for use on it." | 16:38 |
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| fenn | hplusroadmap feels like this sometimes http://captain-kida.tumblr.com/post/80488649265 | 16:52 |
| kanzure | which one is spock | 16:55 |
| fenn | irrelevant | 16:55 |
| kanzure | why are sonographs still expensive? | 16:55 |
| kanzure | i mean, sonography machines | 16:55 |
| fenn | because it's "somebody else's money" | 16:56 |
| kanzure | wouldn't it make more sense for people to have a transducer probe next to their toothbrush or something | 16:56 |
| fenn | why does an ambulance ride cost $2000? | 16:56 |
| fenn | "The optional Sigma Studio software and USB programming tools are required" then they aren't really optional are they? | 16:57 |
| fenn | there's got to be a way to make a feedback loop with this soundlaser thing and destroy it from a distance | 16:59 |
| fenn | otherwise it's the end of civilization as we know it | 16:59 |
| kanzure | is there any evidence that this is on the market http://www.samachar.com/british-engineers-develop-ultra-cheap-ultrasound-mjoeMKihbfe.html | 16:59 |
| fenn | i remember seeing the transducer from a medical scanner for sale for like $200 | 17:00 |
| kanzure | isn't that still a bit high? the piezos are pretty cheap, like <$5/each iirc | 17:01 |
| fenn | there's really no reason you couldn't attach this to a cellphone | 17:01 |
| kanzure | someone did that, but then it got turned into a company | 17:01 |
| kanzure | and now they don't sell it | 17:01 |
| fenn | the sound ports do mic and speakers right? | 17:01 |
| fenn | hell it could even be bluetooth | 17:02 |
| kanzure | http://ultrasound.engineering.wustl.edu/index.php/Cell_Phone_SDK | 17:02 |
| dingo | http://alt.org/nethack/userdata/d/dingo/dumplog/1392596722.nh343.txt | 17:02 |
| kanzure | http://sourceforge.net/p/mobileus/code/HEAD/tree/ | 17:02 |
| dingo | ahh beware the cockatrice | 17:02 |
| dingo | i'll never beat this dumb game | 17:02 |
| kanzure | "FDA Approval: Mobisante receives FDA approval for their smartphone-based ultrasound system; Mobisante, a start-up in Seattle, WA, is commercializing this technology. It is currently under review by the FDA and they hope to sell the first units in 2011" | 17:03 |
| kanzure | and.. you can't even buy it: http://www.mobisante.com/ | 17:03 |
| kanzure | fuckers | 17:03 |
| fenn | and there are no images on that page | 17:03 |
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| Lemminkainen | paperbot http://www.sciencemag.org/content/344/6182/413.short | 17:04 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1251110 | 17:04 |
| Lemminkainen | <3 | 17:04 |
| kanzure | "How much does it cost? We have many flexible options. Please contact our Sales Representative for details." | 17:05 |
| kanzure | i'm pretty sure this can be manufactured for <$50/each | 17:05 |
| gradstudentbot | The gel is streaking. | 17:05 |
| kanzure | "Mobisante does not endorse use of its ultrasound products outside of sale and use by, or on the order, of a physician." aha.. | 17:05 |
| kanzure | "Data from the device can be downloaded by email or the Export feature. Email is supported through a Wi-Fi network. Exporting data can be done via USB or a network drive." | 17:06 |
| kanzure | why does my sonograph send me email? | 17:06 |
| kanzure | "As an optional feature it is also capable of sending data by telegram." | 17:07 |
| fenn | because people looking inside their own bodies is morally wrong and indefensible | 17:08 |
| Lemminkainen | there are some contexts in which I'd prefer to get data by telegram | 17:08 |
| fenn | maybe they mean by facsimile | 17:09 |
| fenn | i bet they also have to fill out a form every time they use it | 17:10 |
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| fenn | heh are you keeping track | 17:12 |
| @kanzure | someone has to | 17:12 |
| fenn | i'm sure it's been more than 3 times | 17:12 |
| fenn | the FDA classified the Freedom Virus as a drug! | 17:13 |
| @kanzure | i wonder if the fda has ever butted into what the cdc does | 17:13 |
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| @kanzure | i'm sorry but those life saving biohazard suits aren't approved for humanitarian use | 17:14 |
| fenn | i don't understand what "humanitarian" means | 17:14 |
| gradstudentbot | Where are the hot plates? | 17:14 |
| fenn | "someone devoted to the promotion of human welfare" as opposed to a nihilist? | 17:15 |
| @kanzure | yeah it's curious that they named it humanitarian use anyway | 17:15 |
| @kanzure | surely they recognized how stupid it sounds that they have a category "to appear to be more human" | 17:15 |
| fenn | i think it's in reference to "humanism" (as opposed to religion) but it still sounds kinda weird, like the rest of medicine and government is not in the interest of human welfare? | 17:16 |
| @kanzure | alibaba prices are also a little high | 17:18 |
| @kanzure | but since this is mostly solid state i think a pcb shop could probably be tricked into doing it for less | 17:19 |
| @kanzure | how do these people sleep at night? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Veterinary-Portable-Ultrasound-Scanner-Convex-Probe-USB-/220825063078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item336a330ea6 | 17:28 |
| @kanzure | from what world is this a viable product | 17:28 |
| @kanzure | "Permanent Image storage: 32 frames" | 17:28 |
| @kanzure | "Scanner depth: 230mm" wtf | 17:28 |
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| @kanzure | that keyboard looks like it was designed by a committee | 17:31 |
| @kanzure | i should go for a world record on that keyboard | 17:31 |
| @kanzure | http://whyisamericanhealthcaresoexpensive.blogspot.com/2013/02/how-to-make-your-own-ultrasound-gel.html | 17:33 |
| ebowden | Oh, neat. | 17:33 |
| yoleaux | 27 Apr 2014 02:54Z <fenn> ebowden: http://orion.bme.columbia.edu/ueil/documents/article/2011-choi-bbb-pulses-microbubbles.pdf | 17:33 |
| @kanzure | jrayhawk: http://whyisamericanhealthcaresoexpensive.blogspot.com/2013/02/how-to-perform-fecal-transplant-why.html | 17:34 |
| @kanzure | http://whyisamericanhealthcaresoexpensive.blogspot.com/2013/04/how-to-learn-bedside-point-of-care.html "When I see a patient now, instead of taking their pulse and placing my stethoscope on their chest and back, hearing the vague taps and clunks and bubbles and whooshes of the internal organs I have come to trust are in there, I open the ultrasound machine that lives in my white coat, squeeze a little gel from a tube I keep warm in my pocket, ... | 17:35 |
| @kanzure | ... and the patient and I look at heart, lungs, liver, spleen, kidneys and bladder. Most of them, those not blind or in a coma, think this is incredibly cool. At the end of this exam, which takes all of 5 minutes if I am thorough, I know whether their heart squeezes normally, whether there is excess fluid in the lungs or pericardial sack, whether there is fluid in the belly, whether the kidneys are blocked and whether the bladder is emptying ... | 17:35 |
| @kanzure | ... normally. Sometimes I also see things like gallstones or tumors or blood clots. I can often evaluate whether the patient is dehydrated by looking at the inferior vena cava, the vein that returns blood from the lower body to the heart." | 17:36 |
| jrayhawk | http://chriskresser.com/all-about-fecal-microbiota-transplants from an actual researcher in the field | 17:37 |
| jrayhawk | the hope is to come up with dirt cheap suppositories and prove them safe | 17:37 |
| @kanzure | i figured you would be amused by this person's instructions | 17:37 |
| @kanzure | oh cool, the fda regulates fecal transplants: http://whyisamericanhealthcaresoexpensive.blogspot.com/2013/05/dear-fda-food-and-drug-administration.html | 17:38 |
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| jrayhawk | haha | 17:38 |
| @kanzure | she paid $8000 for "Vscan, by GE"? geeze http://whyisamericanhealthcaresoexpensive.blogspot.com/2014/04/pocket-ultrasound-machines-why-doesnt.html | 17:41 |
| @kanzure | https://vscan.gehealthcare.com/gallery/a-quick-look-at-vscan | 17:42 |
| @kanzure | "The list price for Vscan purchases made within the United States is $7,900USD. For special pricing offers and pricing in other geographies and in local currencies, please contact your local sales representative or Vscan distributor. You will find sales contact information for your geography on the “Contact” page." | 17:43 |
| @kanzure | this person really paid that much? wtf | 17:43 |
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| @kanzure | one hour on a full charge, that's neat https://vscan.gehealthcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Vscan-Datasheet-2012.pdf | 17:46 |
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| jrayhawk | part of the plan with socialized medicine is to make collective bargaining more effective | 18:03 |
| jrayhawk | s/is/was/ i suppose. this country fairly amazing at finding pareto maximums of awfulness between libertarianism and socialism. | 18:07 |
| @kanzure | collective bargaining doesn't seem like the correct problem | 18:13 |
| jrayhawk | it's certainly a subset of other problems | 18:13 |
| @kanzure | who is bargaining with the fda for cheapo at home unlicensed medical imaging | 18:13 |
| @kanzure | s/cheapo// | 18:14 |
| jrayhawk | "cheapo" is not really an option after hopping through regulatory hoops | 18:15 |
| @kanzure | seeking approval for playing high-frequency music is silly | 18:15 |
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| @kanzure | usb ultrasound probe from 2006 that was going to retail for $3700 http://www.mtbeurope.info/news/2006/605035.htm | 18:19 |
| jrayhawk | anyway, there are at least obvious gains to be made with collective bargaining based on what we see with costs in socialized medicine vs. medicare/medicaid/VHA vs. all other U.S. healthcare | 18:20 |
| jrayhawk | it would be a lot *better* if we split up the USDA so it stopped bankrupting the nation with medical expenses, but apparently baby steps are hard enough | 18:21 |
| @kanzure | "The MobiUS costs £7,000 compared to £60,000 for a full-size ultrasound model." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2363964/The-ultrasound-scanner-plugs-SMARTPHONE-revolutionise-medical-care-world-countries.html | 18:22 |
| @kanzure | what a joke. | 18:22 |
| @kanzure | transcranial adventures inc. | 18:24 |
| jrayhawk | he who charges the most can afford the best salesmen, and doctors are forbidden from considering price in treatment and get to pass the buck onto the insurance companies | 18:25 |
| @kanzure | this is really just a few piezos hooked up to a transistor and usb wire | 18:26 |
| @kanzure | the software doesn't even do 3d point cloud construction stuff | 18:27 |
| jrayhawk | Sovaldi is a fun one; their only market pressure is medical tourism. | 18:27 |
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| fenn | so the cool thing about a smartphone ultrasound is it could do 3d reconstruction of the tissue volume, which would drastically reduce the amount of training required to use it, to approximately zero | 19:03 |
| fenn | but i haven't seen this anywhere (that doesn't mean it doesn't exist though) | 19:04 |
| fenn | $3700 is ridiculous | 19:05 |
| fenn | their volume rendering method sucks but it's the right general idea: https://www.imt.liu.se/edu/courses/TBMT02/ultra/m105r1.pdf | 19:11 |
| @kanzure | you should be able to extract a point cloud by waving your magic wand (not that magic wand, cough) over the tissue | 19:12 |
| fenn | also doppler coloring should give you better alignment information | 19:12 |
| @kanzure | and maybe an accelerometer on the wand or something | 19:12 |
| fenn | that's what this is, but "point cloud" doesn't really make sense for tissue since it's just variations in density | 19:12 |
| fenn | you could do segmentation pretty easily with MRI software | 19:13 |
| @kanzure | well consider fetal ultrasound where you end up with surfaces like a face | 19:13 |
| fenn | see figure 10b | 19:13 |
| @kanzure | what is the rotation based on? | 19:14 |
| fenn | mouse click+drag probably | 19:15 |
| fenn | i'd use the phone accelerometer | 19:15 |
| fenn | the probe should have its own accelerometer and gyro | 19:15 |
| * kanzure nods | 19:15 | |
| fenn | but in a pinch you could tape them together | 19:16 |
| fenn | there are all these cheap ass "augmented reality" apps for android, but none of them do any image processing to align the view with the supposed orientation in space, they just use the compass which is terribly slow and inaccurate | 19:17 |
| fenn | but optic flow is like the second simplest computer vision algorithm next to edge detection | 19:18 |
| @kanzure | why is it called optic flow | 19:19 |
| fenn | something about fruit flies | 19:19 |
| @kanzure | why are these probes/transducer arrays limited between 1-5 MHz in the medical products? | 19:20 |
| @kanzure | are the driver circuits that finnicky | 19:20 |
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| @kanzure | i would expect to be able to drive the same piezo down to 1-20 kHz for music playing | 19:21 |
| fenn | maybe it's resonant | 19:21 |
| fenn | 1 hour battery time is pretty impressive | 19:22 |
| fenn | if it's actually scanning that whole time | 19:22 |
| fenn | the wand should have a button so you can select which organ to render as mostly opaque | 19:23 |
| @kanzure | you should be able to paint a full body picture | 19:24 |
| fenn | of course, but usually there's a lot of stuff in the way of what you're trying to look at | 19:24 |
| @kanzure | and i don't mean boring fetuses | 19:24 |
| fenn | i've always wanted something like this; in addition to transdermal magnesium supplementation and radium therapy, you could use it as an ultrasound imaging tank: http://gray-fox200.deviantart.com/art/The-immortality-experiment-CloseUp-412812505 | 19:26 |
| @kanzure | dunno if the tank would work or not, i was thinking something that sprays you with the gel mist, and then a simple xy axis to move a probe | 19:27 |
| @kanzure | tank does offer all three dimensions though | 19:27 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S003383890570230X | 19:28 |
| fenn | tank can scan rapidly and repeatedly without poking or prodding the user | 19:28 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/310441aaf5a7d5fc21ed80a2d64c7ad2.txt | 19:28 |
| fenn | you'd either have planar arrays on top and bottom, or a linear array that sweeps the perimeter of the tank | 19:29 |
| fenn | could use it for neural modulation too, maybe | 19:29 |
| @kanzure | you could do an array across the whole circumference | 19:30 |
| fenn | sure but that's expensive | 19:30 |
| @kanzure | is it? | 19:30 |
| fenn | well, more expensive than a spinny thingy | 19:30 |
| @kanzure | otherwise you'd be waiting forever for your array to spiral around | 19:30 |
| fenn | i dunno, a planar array on top or bottom might be enough | 19:31 |
| @kanzure | like an entire 8 hours or something | 19:31 |
| fenn | people might be uncomfortable if it were on top, then they're "trapped" underwater | 19:31 |
| @kanzure | an entire uninterrupted 8 hours, like of sleep | 19:31 |
| fenn | huh 8 hours? i was thinking like 1 second | 19:31 |
| @kanzure | oh | 19:31 |
| fenn | ding! your wikipedia is ready | 19:32 |
| @kanzure | i'm not sure what the temporal constraints are | 19:32 |
| fenn | speed of sound mostly | 19:32 |
| @kanzure | but also bandwidth? | 19:32 |
| fenn | same thing | 19:32 |
| @kanzure | processing can be offloaded if necessary but you still have to record stuff | 19:32 |
| fenn | oh data bandwidth.. computers are fast dude | 19:33 |
| @kanzure | i dunno how much data this actually produces | 19:33 |
| fenn | look at the size of the voxels on the baby's face | 19:33 |
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| fenn | let's say a voxel is 1mm | 19:33 |
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| @kanzure | well i am assuming resolution is bad because they are idiots | 19:33 |
| fenn | a human body takes up about a cubic meter, so there are 1 billion voxels in a cubic meter | 19:34 |
| fenn | if each voxel intensity has 8 bits thats 1GB of data to render a human body at full resolution with no compression | 19:34 |
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| fenn | saving 1GB to ram should take much less than a second | 19:35 |
| gradstudentbot | I think the centrifuge is broken. | 19:35 |
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| fenn | for viewing and saving and stuff you'd probably use octrees or some other voxel compression algorithm i don't know about | 19:36 |
| fenn | 3d wavelets would probably work fine | 19:36 |
| fenn | basically a 3d jpeg | 19:36 |
| gradstudentbot | Should this be on ice? | 19:36 |
| @kanzure | iirc higher the reslution the lower the tissue depth you can image, but i dunno if this applies to beamsteering stuff | 19:37 |
| @kanzure | *resolution | 19:37 |
| fenn | that makes sense, it's because of scattering of waves | 19:37 |
| @kanzure | is that just a noise problem | 19:37 |
| fenn | no, it's a physics problem | 19:37 |
| fenn | consider a monster truck and a toy car | 19:38 |
| fenn | the toy car will be deflected by tiny pebbles, but a monster truck will roll right over them | 19:38 |
| fenn | this means the toy car can be used to image pebbles, but eventually it will get bounced out | 19:38 |
| @kanzure | welp for those cases maybe there's a capsule-swallowable form factor for a tiny semiconductor array that can do sonography through the digestive tract | 19:39 |
| fenn | there are trans-whatever probes but i haven't seen a wireless swallowable version | 19:39 |
| @kanzure | or perhaps contrast "agents" (wtf) for deep tissue imaging | 19:39 |
| fenn | contrast bubbles just enhance the scattering of the fluid they're suspended in | 19:40 |
| fenn | maybe there are super resolution techniques from microscopy or photolithography or radar that could be applied | 19:40 |
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| @kanzure | what was the reason we don't do full-body ultrasound imaging? | 19:41 |
| fenn | define "we" | 19:41 |
| @kanzure | humans | 19:41 |
| @kanzure | i don't think anyone does it | 19:42 |
| fenn | i'm sure there exist full-body ultrasound scanners | 19:42 |
| fenn | i really dont like this trend among doctors to recommend not doing "unnecessary" tests because you might see something | 19:43 |
| fenn | like, it's not my fucking problem you're too immature to deal with statistically normal differences | 19:44 |
| catern | oh no | 19:44 |
| @kanzure | google results indicate "full body ultrasound" is just people confused about x-ray tomography they just did | 19:44 |
| catern | is that why they aren't doing unnecessary tests any more? | 19:44 |
| gradstudentbot | I lost my pipette. | 19:44 |
| catern | i thought it was because they actually had gotten some sense about cost-benefit | 19:45 |
| catern | i guess that's a more plausible explanation ;_; | 19:45 |
| fenn | "Unfortunately, once an abnormality is found and identified many people are disturbed and insist on having something done about it. As a consequence doctors are obligated to find out exactly what it is which involves more medical procedures, blood work, and biopsies, just to make sure the problematic area is ok. Before undergoing all of this additional worry and testing, the majority of people | 19:45 |
| fenn | feel absolutely fine." | 19:45 |
| fenn | except for the ones that are OK until they suddenly die | 19:46 |
| fenn | "works for the majority" is not a good rationale for policy-making | 19:46 |
| @kanzure | no evidence of these scans | 19:46 |
| @kanzure | hrm. why doesn't this exist. | 19:47 |
| fenn | The first full-body human ultrasound -- conducted in the turret of a disused B-29 bomber http://criticalmedia.uwaterloo.ca/courses/necromedia/ | 19:49 |
| fenn | why the fuck is this only available from an english literature website | 19:49 |
| fenn | aw come on, this company... http://www.fennent.com/sonar.html | 19:52 |
| @kanzure | i don't see anything about that B-29 turret and ultrasound on the web | 19:52 |
| fenn | .title | 19:52 |
| yoleaux | Sidescan Sonar Images | 19:52 |
| fenn | "Fenn Enterprises" | 19:53 |
| cpopell | :V | 19:53 |
| @kanzure | you went back in time and established that company so that you wouldn't have to do it in 2014 | 19:53 |
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| fenn | actually i have been thinking about sonar for fish finding under sea ice | 19:54 |
| fenn | i wonder why we don't see any sensor fusion images, like sonar + radar + lidar | 19:55 |
| fenn | you'd want RGB lidar to get a good image | 19:55 |
| @kanzure | "because data is hard man" | 19:55 |
| fenn | oh noes teh kalman filterz | 19:55 |
| @kanzure | it looks like "full body ultrasound" results are mostly people advertising the fact that they can use an ultrasound machine to wave a wand around | 19:55 |
| fenn | yeah | 19:56 |
| @kanzure | seems like it would exist at least for product testing? | 19:56 |
| @kanzure | i guess you don't care about heat damage in that situation, so you wouldn't do water/encapsulation | 19:56 |
| fenn | so is it illegal to take a crab out of someone else's crab trap? | 19:56 |
| fenn | i mean, nobody owns the bottom of the ocean right? | 19:57 |
| gradstudentbot | My experiment was working a second ago, but now it doesn't even work. | 19:57 |
| fenn | In just one day on one dive boat the diver released 693 live Dungeness crabs from recovered pots. | 19:58 |
| fenn | also looks like there are a lot of logs down there | 20:00 |
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| fenn | i never understood why they don't just use neutral buoyancy cables for deep sea stuff | 20:05 |
| fenn | a supercavitating cable would be pretty rad | 20:06 |
| fenn | slice a few cubic kilometers of ocean in one second | 20:07 |
| fenn | do you think you could make out a good image of the face by scanning from the back of the skull? | 20:11 |
| jrayhawk | fenn: speaking of medical imaging, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWGBRsV9omw may be a thing you missed while offline | 20:12 |
| jrayhawk | .title | 20:12 |
| yoleaux | 3D Visualizer with Oculus and Hydra | 20:12 |
| jrayhawk | .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soCqTzt9dV0&list=UUj_UmpoD8Ph_EcyN_xEXrUQ | 20:12 |
| yoleaux | VR ProtoShop in the Rift and on the Desktop | 20:12 |
| fenn | should i look at the rest of the playlist? | 20:13 |
| jrayhawk | eventually | 20:13 |
| jrayhawk | that guy does amazing shit | 20:13 |
| @kanzure | "visual analysis tool for three-dimensional volumetric data, such as CAT or MRI scans" not fair, anyone can make fancy visualizations once you have high quality data | 20:13 |
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| jrayhawk | his visualizations are fancier | 20:14 |
| @kanzure | "Atlas of Color-Coded Doppler Sonography: Vascular and Soft Tissue Structures of the Upper Extremity, Thoracic Outlet and Neck" http://lib.freescienceengineering.org/view.php?id=1067313 | 20:16 |
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| fenn | jrayhawk: yep what he's doing in the video is pretty much exactly what i was trying to say about tissue density segmentation | 20:20 |
| fenn | this is pretty standard MRI software stuff | 20:20 |
| fenn | instead of a simple isosurface threshold you could do something more like a hamming window to get an idea of what is above and below your threshold and still be able to see through it | 20:22 |
| fenn | jeez no wonder i can never get it straight, the same thing is called either a "Hann" or "Hanning" or "Hamming" window | 20:24 |
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| @kanzure | i am very confused about why they don't have you doing imaging from multiple angles | 20:26 |
| @kanzure | http://books.google.com/books?id=YfJGexfzB_AC&printsec=frontcover&dq=atlas+of+sonography&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rMldU8WGO4nn8AGSzYCwBg&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false | 20:26 |
| @kanzure | http://books.google.com/books?id=YfJGexfzB_AC&lpg=PP1&dq=atlas%20of%20sonography&pg=PA253#v=onepage&q&f=false | 20:27 |
| @kanzure | they have a diagram of a person somewher in this book, and it's just a single arrow pointing at the abdomen for "where to scan" | 20:27 |
| @kanzure | but why not just collect data from multiple angles and integrate into something | 20:27 |
| @kanzure | maybe everyone prefers to work on x-ray tomography and magnetic resonance imaging | 20:29 |
| fenn | color translucent MRI http://www.anatomybox.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/3d1.jpg | 20:29 |
| @kanzure | why is that colored? | 20:29 |
| fenn | i'm not sure | 20:30 |
| fenn | what's the url schema for wordpress pages by chronology | 20:32 |
| fenn | like "show pages from 2012/06" | 20:33 |
| fenn | oh nevermind it randomly send me to the right page for no reason | 20:33 |
| @kanzure | often assholes install plugins to distort that url schema | 20:35 |
| @kanzure | you want /atom.php or /wp-atom.php or /xmlrpc.php i think | 20:35 |
| fenn | more in that vein (ha) | 20:35 |
| fenn | https://www.google.com/search?num=50&tbm=isch&imgil=pcNFlYVdkkT2TM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcTuhuN_i2KIY02gbUkZD4Jt9vq-Sy9xvbbaZJs2rqbQNKKvts2gpQ%253B122%253B150%253BwlnjkyO2lamW1M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ptca.org%25252Fimaging%25252Findex2.html&source=iu&tbs=simg:CAESZRpjCxCo1NgEGgIICAwLELCMpwgaPAo6CAISFL0e8xHtEZoK3RHcHoce | 20:35 |
| fenn | gxH2EPIRGiBMU3VsxI9kNXC1GAOvbtTPUZ1BY87pltJ7-r2CVxpxtAwLEI6u_1ggaCgoICAESBFaCE_1EM&usg=__YjfnJ1JCAG-6JZrOnrH_aWtHdo8%3D&sa=X&ei=WcxdU8zcO4vSsATPnIHQBQ&ved=0CD8Q9QEwBQ&q=ct%20scan | 20:35 |
| fenn | shit lemme fix that | 20:35 |
| fenn | http://tinyurl.com/nx32e8g | 20:36 |
| @kanzure | doesn't it give you a lethal dose of radiation | 20:37 |
| fenn | only if you do it 80 times in a row | 20:38 |
| catern | jesus fuck you fenn | 20:39 |
| catern | what a horrible google image search | 20:39 |
| catern | i'm horrified | 20:39 |
| fenn | heh the one with the baby skull staring back up the abdominal cavity is the worst | 20:39 |
| @kanzure | those images are fucking awesome, what are you complaining about | 20:40 |
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| fenn | so is CT just more convenient or what, why do they use it instead of MRI? | 20:42 |
| @kanzure | cheaper, since the MRI machines are $3M/each | 20:43 |
| @kanzure | and probably something about not knowing about possible implants | 20:43 |
| fenn | apparently the cost per scan is the same | 20:43 |
| @kanzure | hrm. | 20:43 |
| fenn | mri takes longer | 20:43 |
| fenn | says CT is less sensitive to movement (makes sense if it takes less time) | 20:44 |
| fenn | CT can't resolve soft tissue and MRI can't resolve hard tissue (?) | 20:44 |
| cluckj | CT also dumps a bunch of radiation into you | 20:46 |
| fenn | yeah yeah whatever | 20:46 |
| cluckj | naw dude you get super powers, it's sweet | 20:46 |
| fenn | 2 to 10 mSv | 20:46 |
| gradstudentbot | I feel like you don't completely comprehend the scope of this work. | 20:47 |
| cluckj | thanks gradstudentbot | 20:47 |
| gradstudentbot | Sure, I've been spending a lot of time at a pub.... well, pubmed at least. | 20:47 |
| fenn | for an extra million dollars, we'll throw in CT imaging functionality with your MRI | 20:48 |
| @kanzure | and for every additional million after that, we'll do ultrasonic fart imaging | 20:48 |
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| fenn | i wonder why there isn't a capacitive sensor | 20:49 |
| fenn | hold touchscreen up to abdomen; instant diagnosis! (with free app registration) | 20:49 |
| fenn | diagnosis: you are a sucker | 20:50 |
| fenn | wow this is the state of the art http://www.tomography.com/pdf/ecttechov.pdf | 20:53 |
| fenn | i mean it's just phased array radar, how hard could it be | 20:53 |
| @kanzure | "CAPACITANCE MEASURING UNIT" fuck you | 20:54 |
| fenn | why is it only used for pipes | 20:56 |
| gradstudentbot | Future work will focus on that. | 20:56 |
| fenn | maybe the impedance mismatch between air and tissue is too high and they dont want to dunk patients in salt water | 20:57 |
| fenn | i can't believe they routinely inject antimatter into people and nobody has developed superpowers (as far as we know) | 21:05 |
| @kanzure | superpowers develop but it's the kind that makes your hair and tumors fall out | 21:05 |
| fenn | super awkwardness | 21:07 |
| fenn | this picture's pretty cool http://www.cancerimaging.com/what_patients.php | 21:08 |
| fenn | so PET could be used for anything you can target an antibody at, or any kind of metabolic process? | 21:09 |
| @kanzure | "Limitations to the widespread use of PET arise from the high costs of cyclotrons needed to produce the short-lived radionuclides for PET scanning and the need for specially adapted on-site chemical synthesis apparatus to produce the radiopharmaceuticals after radioisotope preparation. Organic radiotracer molecules that will contain a positron-emitting radioisotope cannot be synthesized first and then the radioisotope prepared within them, ... | 21:10 |
| @kanzure | ... because bombardment with a cyclotron to prepare the radioisotope destroys any organic carrier for it. Instead, the isotope must be prepared first, then afterward, the chemistry to prepare any organic radiotracer (such as FDG) accomplished very quickly, in the short time before the isotope decays. Few hospitals and universities are capable of maintaining such systems, and most clinical PET is supported by third-party suppliers of ... | 21:10 |
| @kanzure | ... radiotracers that can supply many sites simultaneously." | 21:10 |
| @kanzure | "This limitation restricts clinical PET primarily to the use of tracers labelled with fluorine-18, which has a half-life of 110 minutes and can be transported a reasonable distance before use, or to rubidium-82 (used as rubidium-82 chloride) with a half-life of 1.27 minutes, which is created in a portable generator and is used for myocardial perfusion studies. Nevertheless, in recent years a few on-site cyclotrons with integrated shielding ... | 21:10 |
| @kanzure | ... and "hot labs" (automated chemistry labs that are able to work with radioisotopes) have begun to accompany PET units to remote hospitals. The presence of the small on-site cyclotron promises to expand in the future as the cyclotrons shrink in response to the high cost of isotope transportation to remote PET machines[17]" | 21:10 |
| fenn | "hot labs" (automated chemistry labs that are able to work with radioisotopes) where do i click "buy" | 21:11 |
| @kanzure | only button available initiates a phone call to someone who is paid to not sell it to you | 21:12 |
| fenn | seriously this is the only widespread use of "automated synthesis" i've heard of | 21:13 |
| fenn | i wonder how diverse the output is | 21:13 |
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| fenn | jeez that's a poorly optimized gif | 21:15 |
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| fenn | daniel amen uses SPECT scans as part of his psychiatric diagnosis process | 21:27 |
| @kanzure | "A miniature PE tomograph has been constructed that is small enough for a fully conscious and mobile rat to wear on its head while walking around.[36] This RatCAP (Rat Conscious Animal PET) allows animals to be scanned without the confounding effects of anesthesia. PET scanners designed specifically for imaging rodents, often referred to as microPET, as well as scanners for small primates are marketed for academic and pharmaceutical research." | 21:28 |
| @kanzure | "marketed for research" what a broken world | 21:28 |
| fenn | i wonder if you can get an idea for the concentration of neurotransmitters in different areas of the brain by supplying slower-decaying radioisotope tagged neurotransmitter precursors | 21:28 |
| @kanzure | someone did a similar thing with gfp-tagged somethings in brains, and then switched from gfp to something visible in magnetic resonance imaging | 21:29 |
| fenn | are you sure you're not thinking "a deepness in the sky" | 21:29 |
| @kanzure | i am absolutely sure, i have an image in my head and everything | 21:30 |
| fenn | was it nano iron particles | 21:30 |
| @kanzure | this may be it, but this is gfp-only :( | 21:30 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Functional%20expression%20of%20distinct%20NMDA%20channel%20subunits%20tagged%20with%20green%20fluorescent%20protein%20in%20hippocampal%20neurons%20in%20culture.2.png | 21:30 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Functional%20expression%20of%20distinct%20NMDA%20channel%20subunits%20tagged%20with%20green%20fluorescent%20protein%20in%20hippocampal%20neurons%20in%20culture.3.png | 21:30 |
| @kanzure | and that was not in vivo :v | 21:31 |
| fenn | wow that's super duper high resolution | 21:31 |
| gradstudentbot | Is that published? | 21:31 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Functional%20expression%20of%20distinct%20NMDA%20channel%20subunits%20tagged%20with%20green%20fluorescent%20protein%20in%20hippocampal%20neurons%20in%20culture.5.png | 21:31 |
| @kanzure | well it's in a culture, so it's probably just a microscope pointed at it | 21:32 |
| @kanzure | here's the paper, | 21:32 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Functional%20expression%20of%20distinct%20NMDA%20channel%20subunits%20tagged%20with%20green%20fluorescent%20protein%20in%20hippocampal%20neurons%20in%20culture.pdf | 21:32 |
| fenn | meh | 21:32 |
| fenn | gadolinium, iron oxide, iron platinum, manganese, and "Newer research suggests the possibility of protein based contrast agents, based on the abilities of some amino acids to bind with gadolinium" | 21:33 |
| fenn | wut. "Natural products with high manganese concentration such as blueberry and green tea can also be used for T1 increasing contrast enhancement" | 21:34 |
| @kanzure | ParahSailin: say things about those fancypants radioisotope antibodies | 21:38 |
| @kanzure | i don't know why i remember this | 21:38 |
| ParahSailin | radioisotopes? | 21:38 |
| @kanzure | yeah, something about positron emission tomography plus radiolabelled antibodies | 21:39 |
| @kanzure | "Tumor imaging with radioactive metal chelates conjugated to monoclonal antibodies" | 21:40 |
| @kanzure | *radiolabeled | 21:40 |
| fenn | 19:58 < kanzure> fenn: researchers have found a way to do fluorotagging but for magnetism | 21:41 |
| fenn | 19:59 < kanzure> so supposedly we can come up with some super-high-resolution MRI machines and get an image of cellular resolution. | 21:41 |
| fenn | oops that was from 2008-06-07.log | 21:41 |
| fenn | http://www.biologynews.net/archives/2008/06/03/gene_that_magnetically_labels_cells_shows_potential_as_imaging_tool.html | 21:42 |
| @kanzure | yeah, like: | 21:42 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/MagA%20is%20sufficient%20for%20producing%20magnetic%20nanoparticles%20in%20mammalian%20cells,%20making%20it%20an%20MRI%20reporter.pdf | 21:42 |
| @kanzure | more general: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/MRI%20Reporter%20Genes.pdf | 21:42 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Molecular%20imaging%20of%20lentiviral%20vector-mediated%20reporter%20gene%20expression%20with%20positron%20emission%20tomography%20and%20bioluminescence%20imaging.pdf | 21:42 |
| fenn | The gene MagA comes from magnetotactic bacteria, which can sense the Earth's magnetic field. It encodes a protein that transports dissolved iron across cell membranes. When put into animal cells, MagA triggers the accumulation of lumps of magnetite (iron oxide) a few nanometers wide, | 21:43 |
| @kanzure | unfortunately it requires plasmids or gene therapy or mRNA expression therapy etc | 21:43 |
| fenn | also you probably don't want iron nanoparticles in your brain | 21:45 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/MagA.png | 21:46 |
| @kanzure | oh and then there was that fluorscent quantum dot stuff for subcellular imaging: | 21:49 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Mechanochemical%20Delivery%20and%20Dynamic%20Tracking%20of%20Single%20Fluorescent%20Quantum%20Dots%20in%20the%20Cytoplasm%20and%20Nucleus%20of%20Living%20Cells.pdf | 21:49 |
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| fenn | that's not very impressive, compared to PALM microscopy etc | 21:54 |
| @kanzure | google ad tells me "Get the highest resolution in light microscopy for $395k" | 21:55 |
| @kanzure | link is to http://www.zeiss.com/superresolution | 21:55 |
| @kanzure | haha it 404s | 21:56 |
| @kanzure | YES | 21:56 |
| gradstudentbot | Wasn't that a Nature paper? | 21:57 |
| @kanzure | http://www.biotechniques.com/news/iPALM-resolving-the-third-dimension/biotechniques-311352.html?autnID=251548 | 21:58 |
| @kanzure | "Unlike standard fluorescent dyes and proteins that emit a single persistent spectral signal, PA-FPs emit two distinct signals that can be toggled between “on” and “off” states via irradiation with ultraviolet light. These signals either vary in brightness or color. At any given time, a researcher could switch on a subset of the labeled molecules, yielding bright, distinct signals over dark backgrounds. PA-FPs are genetically linked ... | 21:58 |
| @kanzure | ... to proteins of interest, eliminating the incidence of nonspecific labeling—a common occurrence in antibody-mediated fluorescent labeling. Patterson and Lippincott-Schwartz had been using FA-GFP in standard microscopy applications to highlight populations of proteins within cells." | 21:59 |
| fenn | seeing this in 3D is pretty badass http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoactivated_localization_microscopy#The_super-resolution_image | 21:59 |
| @kanzure | "The principle behind PALM. A sparse subset of PA-FP molecules attached to proteins of interest within a cell are activated with a brief laser pulse until most are bleached. This process is repeated many times until there are few remaining unbleached molecles. The images are then summed" | 21:59 |
| @kanzure | isn't "seeing what you're doing" a sin against biology? | 22:00 |
| @kanzure | a TRUE biologist would do it by estimating the trajectories of all proteins simultaneously (before lunch) | 22:01 |
| fenn | ah here we go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnnPyhDxYGA | 22:01 |
| fenn | .title | 22:02 |
| yoleaux | Intersection of Physics and Biology - Jan Liphardt (SETI Talks) | 22:02 |
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| fenn | jeez this computer used to play youtube in the browser just fine | 22:03 |
| cluckj | FPs are really cool | 22:03 |
| fenn | skip to 49:00 | 22:06 |
| @kanzure | hah what is this guy up to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4091#issuecomment-41508675 | 22:06 |
| @kanzure | oops, didn't mean that particular comment | 22:06 |
| @kanzure | fenn: &t=49m etc | 22:07 |
| fenn | PALM is actually very similar to PET | 22:08 |
| cluckj | holy shit | 22:08 |
| cluckj | that zoom blew my mind a little | 22:08 |
| fenn | yeah i was just randomly at that talk "i wonder what's happening at SETI today" | 22:09 |
| @kanzure | it's not your computer with the troubles playing this video | 22:11 |
| @kanzure | definitely a weirdo network issue on their end | 22:11 |
| fenn | no it's all videos | 22:13 |
| @kanzure | i wonder if anyone is using hadoop mapreduce stuff in astronomy | 22:13 |
| @kanzure | is there enough data to bother | 22:13 |
| @kanzure | or is it all just signal analysis | 22:14 |
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| fenn | astronomy is generating a crapload of data | 22:15 |
| @kanzure | more than biology? | 22:16 |
| fenn | not sure, but likely | 22:16 |
| fenn | my brother was talking about the astronomers hogging their data backbone, petabytes were being thrown around | 22:16 |
| @kanzure | i thought that was the high-energy physics jocks | 22:17 |
| fenn | the network was designed for SLAC and LLNL but it got hijacked apparently | 22:18 |
| fenn | er LBNL | 22:18 |
| fenn | hmm i dont see any astronomers here http://www.hpss-collaboration.org/learn_who_petabyte_data.shtml | 22:26 |
| superkuh | When the SKA is up it'll be a big contributor. https://www.skatelescope.org/technology/signal-processing/ | 22:29 |
| fenn | you'd think "how fast is astronomy data being generated" would be easy to answer | 22:30 |
| superkuh | Most of the raw samples are thrown away. | 22:30 |
| superkuh | Otherwise every LOFAR station would be doing many GB/s. | 22:30 |
| fenn | of course, but surely they are storing a lot | 22:31 |
| fenn | "160 gigabit, pff that's only 160 ethernet cards!" | 22:33 |
| superkuh | Oh, yeah, heh, this LOFAR presentation explicitly mentions Map/Reduce. | 22:33 |
| fenn | so are they using it while building it? | 22:35 |
| superkuh | Don't know about SKA. But there are lots of LOFAR stations that are completely operational/done. | 22:37 |
| * fenn notes that the site is vulnerable to heartbleed still... | 22:37 | |
| fenn | gosh it just keeps coming back to beamforming | 22:39 |
| fenn | has anyone here built a phased array anything? | 22:39 |
| fenn | how is it that the optimal telescope design is a bunch of posts thrown out of an airplane? | 22:41 |
| superkuh | I don't transmit, but I've built a 10 GHz intensity interferometer. | 22:42 |
| superkuh | Similar enough by reciprocity. | 22:46 |
| fenn | stupid pdfs.. grr | 22:46 |
| fenn | well anyway here's a bunch of posts in some dirt http://www.icrar.org/__data/assets/image/0010/1026586/sparse_array_close.jpg | 22:54 |
| AshleyWaffle | discussion about morality: http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/244sh7/louis_ck_and_some_of_the_best_practical_advice/ch3u3dx?context=2 | 22:56 |
| AshleyWaffle | muh authentic_pineconeness :D | 22:56 |
| fenn | an intensity interferometer throws away the phase; how is it an interferometer? | 22:56 |
| superkuh | The total power of the incoming wavefront is correlated. | 22:57 |
| gradstudentbot | Hah, look at figure 6. That's definitely a little weird. | 22:57 |
| superkuh | The correlation decays as a sinc function as distance increases. | 22:57 |
| superkuh | https://www.superkuh.com/library/Space/Radio%20Astronomy/intensity-interferometry.pdf covers it well and describes the first implementation. | 22:58 |
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| fenn | i read about a gps receiver design that was capable of millimeter accuracy, i wonder if it works on the same principle | 23:15 |
| superkuh | I think most of those use the carrier of the GPS signal instead of the modulated pseudorandom signal. | 23:18 |
| fenn | "about one half inch" http://www.aticourses.com/sampler/InterferomentryTechniques_ExtractingUsefulInformationFromGPSCarrierWaves.pdf | 23:18 |
| fenn | using the carrier is better anyway because you can lock onto any satellite (or any beacon really) | 23:20 |
| fenn | man, GPS makes my head hurt | 23:23 |
| fenn | all these clocks flying around | 23:23 |
| fenn | anyway, instead of "building" a radio telescope array, you could throw them out an airplane and precisely measure the position wrt a satellite beacon, and communicate wirelessly to scattered nodes connected to a fiber backbone | 23:26 |
| fenn | and hopefully your wireless bandwidth is higher than the observation band | 23:27 |
| superkuh | I was surprised to learn a month or two back that sometimes greater baseline length does not lead to greater sensitivity. It depends on your target. For epoch of reionization stuff where you have to look through foreground clutter like the galaxy the tighter array you use the higher the sensitivity. | 23:28 |
| superkuh | ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q6OxSFD83o | 23:28 |
| fenn | like pinhole optics | 23:29 |
| fenn | reading the intensity interferometer paper, if they had a radio beacon satellite like GPS in the 1950s they could have just compared the relative phase of the star observation to the satellite | 23:33 |
| fenn | ah so this is how the paperclip-maximizing AI gets started... | 23:35 |
| fenn | .title | 23:38 |
| yoleaux | CfA Colloquium: Building HERA From PAPERclips and Supercomputers | 23:38 |
| gradstudentbot | Do you have references for that? | 23:41 |
| xentrac | fenn: you can, but you'll still want to precisely align the parabolic reflectors on each antenna | 23:57 |
| xentrac | because compensating for the lack of parabolic reflectors will increase the number of nodes you need by about six orders of magnitude | 23:57 |
| fenn | what parabolic reflector? | 23:58 |
| xentrac | (if I understand the math correctly and 60 dBi is usual for a parabolic reflector) | 23:58 |
| xentrac | the parabolic reflector you put on to avoid needing six orders of magnitude more nodes | 23:58 |
| xentrac | kanzure: the Soundlazer is ultrasonic, not phased-array | 23:59 |
| --- Log closed Mon Apr 28 00:00:40 2014 | ||
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