| --- Log opened Sat May 10 00:00:00 2014 | ||
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| sheena1 | who takes magnesium for allergies? i forget the dose | 00:24 |
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| @_archels | .title http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fnhum.2014.00199/full | 00:27 |
| yoleaux | Online transcranial Doppler ultrasonographic control of an onscreen keyboard | 00:27 |
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| fenn | sheena1: 1 Tablespoon or 500mg, start slow. recently i got a "true HEPA" air filter and it actually helped | 01:04 |
| sheena1 | filtering air makes a big difference for me as well. im not at home, and its mostly the hay when doing barn chores... i could wear my mask but ugh | 01:04 |
| sheena1 | i got capsules.. citrate.. righ? | 01:04 |
| fenn | right | 01:04 |
| sheena1 | ok. 500 mg is the final dose you're taking? | 01:05 |
| fenn | i don't really measure, probably more | 01:05 |
| sheena1 | okie | 01:06 |
| sheena1 | side effects? | 01:06 |
| fenn | an easy, relaxed feeling | 01:06 |
| fenn | can cause diarrhea if taking too much | 01:06 |
| sheena1 | same as vitc etc then | 01:06 |
| fenn | yep ideally we'd just take magnesium ascorbate but it's harder to get | 01:07 |
| sheena1 | :) | 01:07 |
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| fenn | this is a curious device. as someone who runs out of ram constantly, it's worth a shot http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Super-Talent-Ram-Disk-RamDisk,23173.html http://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-Talent-32GB-Express-Ram-Disk-USB-3-0-Flash-Drive-TLC-/190918854844 | 03:17 |
| fenn | i wonder what happens during sleep/suspend mode | 03:18 |
| fenn | the numbers don't match up 125MB/s read 42MB/s write is nowhere near "4041 MB/s read and 5388 MB/s write" | 03:22 |
| fenn | it doesn't really matter with USB 2.0 | 03:22 |
| fenn | aw man it looks like it just installs some crap software to pretend like there's a disk http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/5891/super-talent-dram-disk-16gb-usb-3-0-flash-drive-review/index.html | 03:30 |
| fenn | i just want a USB external DRAM bay | 03:30 |
| fenn | why is that so hard | 03:30 |
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| fenn | maybe ram disks are obsolete now with faster flash drives | 03:38 |
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| pasky | fenn: because USB is on a completely different level than DRAM in PC architecture; you need to be able to access RAM directly from the CPU, not based on exchanging pretty-please messages with USB controller | 04:29 |
| pasky | fenn: you will just have to swap somewhere | 04:29 |
| pasky | fenn: aside of storage devices, an interesting option is swapping into your GPU's memory (unless you have shared CPU/GPU memory in your notebook) | 04:30 |
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| fenn | it's shared | 05:02 |
| fenn | i realize USB and RAM are totally separate; i was thinking of it from a swap perspective from the beginning | 05:02 |
| fenn | however, "fast" flash drives are only in the 10-50MB/s continuous write range, with random read/write being much slower | 05:03 |
| fenn | a USB RAM bay (just a bunch of ram in a box with a USB transciever) would not have this problem | 05:03 |
| fenn | especially if there were a tiny bit of glue software to queue up read requests so as not to make lots of tiny USB packets | 05:05 |
| fenn | there are so many cheap ARM mini PC's with 2GB of RAM and tons of USB ports | 05:07 |
| fenn | they just need a little help | 05:07 |
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| kanzure | so in the elastomeric thin film thing it has an array of wires sticking out? | 05:40 |
| fenn | i don't know what you're talking about | 05:44 |
| kanzure | 23:26 < fenn> the circuitry used to drive an electroluminescent display is somewhat similar to driving an array of PZT transducers | 05:44 |
| kanzure | 23:26 < fenn> lots of little high voltage AC wires | 05:44 |
| fenn | ok i was just musing on how they are similar technologies | 05:45 |
| fenn | probably both perovskite crystals too | 05:45 |
| fenn | the EL display has indium tin oxide front conductors and "light absorbent row electrodes" whatever that means, presumably copper oxide coated copper | 05:47 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/fennetic.net:~/irc/lumineq_electroluminescent_display_cross_section.png | 05:49 |
| fenn | derp | 05:49 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/lumineq_electroluminescent_display_cross_section.png | 05:49 |
| kanzure | http://bgr.com/2014/05/09/fcc-net-neutrality-controversy/ | 05:52 |
| kanzure | "The Federal Communications Commission would rather read your thoughts about net neutrality than hear about them. Columbia Law School professor and leading net neutrality activist Tim Wu points out that calling the FCC’s main consumer hotline will give you a message that asks you to write an email to the commission if you’re calling about FCC chairman Tom Wheeler’s controversial net neutrality plans." | 05:52 |
| kanzure | in other words.. their pipes aren't able to handle the load. aww. | 05:52 |
| fenn | does that mean you should call them or email them? | 05:52 |
| fenn | oh i know, we can pay them "preferred carrier status" so we can call them | 05:53 |
| kanzure | afaik emails to any government agency aren't supposed to work, unless it's the type where you end up paying for a service (like FOIA requests) | 05:53 |
| fenn | postcards it is then | 05:53 |
| kanzure | yes preferred carrier was the phrase i was looking for thanks | 05:54 |
| fenn | i just made that up | 05:54 |
| kanzure | i am pretty sure the fcc deals with preferred carriers. googling shows that they have regulation of such. | 05:55 |
| kanzure | hah coindesk apparently allows straight up infomercials http://www.coindesk.com/network-analysts-view-block-chain/ | 05:56 |
| kanzure | (the author is pimping his company) | 05:57 |
| fenn | i think i'm going to use this as my swap drive: http://www.amazon.com/SanDisk-Extreme-Flash-Drive-SDCZ80-016G-X46/dp/B007YXA5S8/ | 05:57 |
| fenn | it has really good 4k write speed | 05:58 |
| fenn | someone took it apart and there's a SATA hard disk controller inside | 05:58 |
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| FourFire | fenn does it have enough endurance? | 06:57 |
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| kanzure | fenn: i think any reform of the fda would have to come with reform of the patent office too | 08:15 |
| kanzure | maybe jojack knows someone who has put together a reasonable proposal that has a chance of actually working | 08:15 |
| kanzure | ("delete both organizations" isn't likely to happen) | 08:15 |
| kanzure | http://patents.justia.com/examiner/rochelle-ann-j-blackman | 08:18 |
| kanzure | .title | 08:19 |
| yoleaux | Patents by Examiner Rochelle Ann J Blackman | 08:19 |
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| escapier | Hi are there other transhumanist chanels outthere, some better/more important/active? | 08:28 |
| kanzure | this is the largest and most active, see evidence here: http://gnusha.org/logs/ | 08:28 |
| kanzure | lee smolin Spin networks Ltd, 158 Crawford St, Toronto, ON M6J 2V4 Canada | 08:29 |
| escapier | I am interested in IRC chanels not something else. | 08:29 |
| kanzure | my link is irc channel logs, learn to read | 08:30 |
| escapier | i read it, but i just said you that your answer does not fir my questions. | 08:31 |
| escapier | *fit | 08:31 |
| kanzure | there are none that are better, more important or more active | 08:31 |
| kanzure | most of them are dead | 08:31 |
| kanzure | so basically none | 08:31 |
| escapier | It isok. Is there any campain against Transhumanism, it seems so to me. | 08:32 |
| kanzure | but here's some historical archives that you can compare against: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/extropians/irclogs/ | 08:32 |
| catern | escapier: yes, the illuminati wants to prevent tranhumanist ideas from reaching the masses. we are the only enlightened ones who see the truth left | 08:33 |
| kanzure | in particular extropy.log transinst.log immortal.log vpsummit.log immortal2.log wta.log sl4.log | 08:33 |
| kanzure | catern: cute, but i think you can do better | 08:34 |
| catern | yeah, i just tried to get something out quickly | 08:35 |
| escapier | Ok i stay serious, there are a lots of negative conspirancy theories on youtube in the last mounth and all intersting discussions are far behind them, also on google there are no real boards for transhuman thoughts, just negativ comentars. | 08:35 |
| kanzure | escapier: why does any of that matter? "if you watch enough youtube videos, you'll live forever" | 08:35 |
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| escapist | rejoin | 08:48 |
| kanzure | "Optical lenses cannot distinguish between electric and magnetic photon rays." | 08:49 |
| escapist | i download all logs right now | 08:49 |
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| escapist | kanzure: do you know transhuman/biohcking online communities they are worth to join an free not like http://humanityplus.org/get-involved-2/join/join-hplus/ | 08:51 |
| escapist | does somebody else know any? | 08:53 |
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| kanzure | escapist: humanityplus.org isn't really worth anyone's time. they don't do anything. | 08:55 |
| kanzure | escapist: i recommend not joining groups | 08:56 |
| escapist | why? | 08:56 |
| escapist | kanzure: is there an particualer reason whynot? | 08:58 |
| kanzure | why would you want to join a group that doesn't do anything? | 08:59 |
| escapist | um-- let think | 09:01 |
| kanzure | trick question | 09:03 |
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| escapist | 1. I am not a expert (yet), so it would great if i have someone i could ask, why not irc? - I thinks its more comfortable in a group 2. I need friends ;-) 3. I am not the (proto)type of guy doing anything alone in a laboritory 3. Iam in interested in poeple, i wANT TO DISCUSS with them, try to solve problems together 4. Working in groups incease the dopamin, specialy when you done something good and other notice this. | 09:05 |
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| escapist | Why not irc, no real trust possible in irc, -> no real cooperation. There are are so far away, no real identification possible. kanzure does these selfish reasons make sense to you? | 09:08 |
| kanzure | why is "real identification" important? i don't understand | 09:08 |
| kanzure | no, none of this makes sense to me | 09:08 |
| kanzure | do you really care who i am as long as my tools work? that's racist holmes :) | 09:08 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_photon "There is no experimental evidence for the existence of this particle, and several versions [1] have been ruled out by negative experiments.[2]" well then wtf is this? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/physics/Possible%20observation%20of%20a%20second%20kind%20of%20light%20-%20magnetic%20photon%20rays.pdf | 09:09 |
| kanzure | nsh: poke, see last message | 09:09 |
| escapist | Racism, is when you do not value someone, because his dna has some othere molecules then mine and i see a danger for my childreen from this kind of human. What i talk about is total opposite, i want to value poeple and want that people value me, because we are different, because we know each other, because i ear and give trust by/to someone. The main imporvement of have poeple around they can really help you up when you in a | 09:13 |
| kanzure | okay, well that sounds really boring and stuff, let me know when you want to work on transhumanist projects | 09:13 |
| escapist | when you have poeple around you they help you as well you would help them , when you never expiered some situation youve missed something big. | 09:14 |
| kanzure | i assure you that being in the humanityplus.org group does not advance any transhumanist goals whatsoever | 09:15 |
| escapist | Ähmm. in future, ofcourse, nor in past nor in present ... | 09:15 |
| kanzure | i should note that i was employed by them at one point | 09:15 |
| kanzure | so i have actual, you know, evidence and experience that you're totally welcome to ignore | 09:15 |
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| escapist | thats is why i asking you for communities, just as kick start , that i do not have to annoy the same humans all the time .. | 09:17 |
| escapist | thats why i am asking you, when do you have better ideas i shut up and listen# | 09:17 |
| kanzure | huh? i don't understand at all. what's wrong with just doing projects in this irc channel? | 09:18 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects has an old list of things that were being kicked around | 09:19 |
| kanzure | (from this channel) | 09:19 |
| escapist | I have nothing really against the medium irc itself. but do you have the time to explain a nearly newcomer, everything he need to know, that would be awesome, but i guess not. So a more closed group than a irc, could train/teach/explain me everything much better then any irc could, because these people i spend time with, know me and know what i know... | 09:21 |
| escapist | kanzure , do you see good points in a more famliar group, for beginners like me? | 09:22 |
| kanzure | so you think that an irc channel can't teach you anything because...? | 09:23 |
| kanzure | maybe i am unfamiliar to you because you have only met me 10 minutes ago | 09:23 |
| kanzure | which seems fairly normal | 09:24 |
| escapist | i do not tell that he cannot teach me anything, but people they know at least a bit, can <theorie> better teach me </theorie> thats because | 09:25 |
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| escapist | <argument>they know my strenghts and my weaknesses so they could focus on what i need</> | 09:26 |
| catern | standard debating XML | 09:26 |
| escapist | he does not seemed to get my point... so its my fault and i need to improve the clearness of my thoughts</explanation> | 09:27 |
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| escapist | catern do you understand what i want to say? | 09:28 |
| dingo | now dont bring xml into this | 09:29 |
| dingo | thats a straw man | 09:29 |
| kanzure | it's okay to just say "i don't like irc" | 09:29 |
| escapist | I like irc ( see above), otherwise i wouldnot be hear. Every task needs a tool and i think specally for newbies they need to get in to the materia, a open communtity with fast changing members is not the best tool. | 09:31 |
| kanzure | can you describe the nature of the closed community you want, and why you think it would be more effective at transhumanist projects? | 09:33 |
| escapist | Andno real rules, newbies often wnat something like a red threat they can catch when they fall or get lost, but irc just do not provide that. Thats why i think, @ the actual moment of my infos and knowledge a more closed, more ruled is better for beginners. Answer to your questioni do not think there is one right tool, thats ideal for everybody, there different tools for different situation. Irc good for andvanced oes, i to | 09:35 |
| dingo | i to also | 09:36 |
| dingo | glad we agree | 09:36 |
| escapist | they start to get in the materia it is not ideal as mentioned above. So to your question using a forum and irc for example would fit both needs and optimize the security, privacy problems of an irc | 09:37 |
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| kanzure | how did this turn into forum vs irc?? weren't you talking about something else first | 09:38 |
| escapist | in a forum there are rules, in class also not the speed of the information the childreen get is important, but that they understand the links between, in research the speed is much more important because anyone understand the basics | 09:39 |
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| kanzure | are you suggesting this irc channel doesn't have rules? | 09:43 |
| kanzure | i am not trying to be difficult, but your line of reasoning is very difficult to follow | 09:43 |
| escapist | this no forum vs irc, thats a pro-forum-and-irc i talked about a group that help me get the basic knowledge. | 09:43 |
| kanzure | irc can help you get basic knowledge if necessary | 09:45 |
| kanzure | what do you want to know? | 09:45 |
| escapist | I am pro-irc-and-forum. Why do we need a forum? In my opinion a forum is better for educating the newcomers, f.E: you can link to solved problems, toturials and do need to summurize for everyone everytie someone asks. Why not jsut forum: Because for advanced prefer irc. Answer to your question follows: | 09:47 |
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| escapist | 1. How i start? 2. What i need? 3. Are there any easy exper. to start? 4.REQUEST Long list books i should read 5. Required basic knowledge? | 09:49 |
| escapist | Thats what i want to know, when you a forum, people can found the information by themself f.E: from a thread literatur need to readedto understand the basics. but it also allows questions and comments not like toturial website | 09:51 |
| kanzure | why couldn't they just look at links given to them over irc? | 09:52 |
| kanzure | also, here's the channel's wiki: http://diyhpl.us/wiki | 09:52 |
| kanzure | you can read the books here: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ | 09:52 |
| kanzure | here's some do-it-yourself biohacking frequently asked questions: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq | 09:53 |
| kanzure | a list of areas of knowledge to look into is also written here http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration | 09:53 |
| kanzure | since i have given you these links without the use of a forum, does that invalidate your assertion by any chance? | 09:53 |
| escapist | i ve already downloaded them ... | 09:54 |
| escapist | i give you point, but just small one, do you want to that for Example poeple per day? - I assume no. When i would have a special questions about ribbosons, you can tell me X is expert for that. That means i have to wait till X is on and maybe just get redirected. In a Forum anybody that knows the topic can just ggive me the neede information, much easier much faster, back to one of your question:"How does this help the trans | 09:58 |
| escapist | example 5 or 15 | 09:59 |
| kanzure | if you look more closely, you will see that the wiki has content | 10:00 |
| kanzure | by the way, your message is getting clipped at the ends, see http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-05-10.log to see the cutoffs | 10:01 |
| kanzure | fenn: this is an okay article, http://nige.wordpress.com/2010/08/14/freeman-dyson-on-richard-feynmans-path-integral-quantum-field-theory/ | 10:01 |
| escapist | You are right, you can explain everything to someone in a irc, but a forum as starting point, offers more possiblity, special the recruts, than a wiki, click my self though endless list sites, does not really increase the motivation to make the world a better place, does it? @ .log yes of course you can do that of courxe you can search in chat logs for the answer of your problems, <ironic>i love i can do it al day</> | 10:03 |
| kanzure | no, i am not telling you to search the logs, i am telling you that your messages are experiencing cutoff -_- learn to read | 10:04 |
| kanzure | also i find your theory that forums are better than wikis for content to be highly suspicious | 10:05 |
| kanzure | i also find "motivation to make the world a better place" highly suspcious too-- do you know what transhumanism is? | 10:06 |
| escapist | tell, oh grand all knowing Übermensch , tell me - ofcourse i get a bit rhetoric when i talk about it. But just telling me that i should formulate i better does improvve nithing, does it? | 10:08 |
| escapist | tell me what i ve done wrong so i can improve. | 10:08 |
| kanzure | you're calling me an ubmernsch because i have called you out on a silly opinion? | 10:09 |
| kanzure | most of the time i see the "forums are better than mailing lists" opinion, but "forums are better than wikis" is quite a new take on that traditional argument | 10:11 |
| kanzure | is there anything a forum can't do, golly geewhiz | 10:11 |
| escapist | do you mean this real? Do i real have to answer? Tell me what i could improve that you understand me better. Can we both stop using rhetoric that much? It make it more simple | 10:12 |
| kanzure | i am not using rhetoric. i honestly believe that there is content on this wiki http://diyhpl.us/wiki that you should read. this is why i gave you the links. this is not because of rhetoric. | 10:12 |
| escapist | In a forum you can basicily do anything, also i blog or a irc, you can make a wiki in irc, of course and you can answer questions in a forum as well. The question is how good,but can we leave this discussion. There are thinks forums are good for and there are less good for can we agree on that?Thank forrecomdenig the wiki i just downloading all 1600++ pdfs at the moment. Downloaded all sites i met. | 10:16 |
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| escapist | kanzure : thanks for helping me. | 10:19 |
| escapist | Where would you recomend me to start with? | 10:19 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ | 10:19 |
| kanzure | hahahaha: "Not true, you will always want to hide some things from some people and not from others. For example, I produce a chemical product which i sell to company a, company b would love to know how much i charge to company a but i don't want them to know. The industry regulators want to see all my transactions for national security purposes. Bitcoin can deliver in this scenario way more effectively than any native currency via BIP32 ... | 10:21 |
| kanzure | ... address systems. I can transact in private on the blockchain and provide my master public key to any authority that wants to audit me. That is amazing." | 10:21 |
| kanzure | "The industry regulators want to see all my transactions for national security purposes." riiight | 10:21 |
| escapist | Ok, that are 1600 books, do oyu understand that this answer is frustrating. | 10:22 |
| kanzure | yeah, doing things is "hard" | 10:23 |
| kanzure | it's unfortunate, but you can't give up on doing things | 10:23 |
| kanzure | also the wiki is much less content than 1600 books at the moment | 10:24 |
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| kanzure | haha | 10:27 |
| kanzure | "If we can just write enough epic emails or forum posts at each other, we'll live forever!" | 10:27 |
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| FourFire | kanzure, IKR | 10:29 |
| FourFire | it's annoying because I feel like it's my duty to instruct people that they're going to actually have to Make that shit Happen if they want to actually enjoy the benefits | 10:30 |
| kanzure | it's annoying because duty? | 10:30 |
| FourFire | I am lazy | 10:31 |
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| delinquentme | TIL "technical gelatin" ... almost sounds like it could be used as growth medium | 10:31 |
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| escapist | i agree that it is anoying to explain anything | 10:36 |
| kanzure | it's not annoying to explain things, it's annoying that they are wrong | 10:37 |
| escapist | i also know that and i am every time a little embrassed when i need to ask strangers, for a way the basic informations. Ok, explain :-) | 10:38 |
| escapist | i am irritated what do you mean with them are wrong? | 10:38 |
| escapist | *they | 10:38 |
| FourFire | it's annoying having to explain the same thing over and over | 10:39 |
| escapist | can e | 10:39 |
| escapist | i agree, but as long there is no guide, no red threat,i can follow i need to ask others asked 100 times before the same question. | 10:40 |
| escapist | itsis really embrassing i know that, i am also a expert for many things compared to my age. | 10:40 |
| kanzure | nobody cares about your age here | 10:41 |
| escapist | Thats one thing i love about the irc's | 10:42 |
| escapist | But it is hard to start reading 1600 articles and books about something you do not even no all basics, and i think i do not know all. It is like you want teach programming to someone that can not sum or divide nor know the basic logic statments. | 10:44 |
| escapist | You agree? | 10:44 |
| kanzure | no | 10:45 |
| kanzure | i believe you can teach programming to someone who does not know division or addition | 10:46 |
| kanzure | turtle programming showed this, i believe. or possibly earlier versions. | 10:46 |
| escapist | Ok, that was just an example, you can not teach poetry when the other can not even write or read. | 10:47 |
| escapist | Agree on that? | 10:47 |
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| kanzure | no, because for centuries there were poets that could not read or write- they would recite oral histories | 10:47 |
| escapist | ok, you a smart, i give up, but i thin you understand the core of my sentence. | 10:48 |
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| kanzure | i am not smart, sigh | 10:48 |
| kanzure | i just think you're wrong | 10:48 |
| escapist | Do you think it is wrong to learn the basics before creating life? | 10:49 |
| kanzure | it is neither right nor wrong- many births occur before anyone learns "the basics" | 10:49 |
| escapist | Do you want to teach me transhumanism/biohacking? | 10:50 |
| kanzure | i fucking gave you links dude | 10:50 |
| kanzure | i have no idea why you would ask that question after receiving said links | 10:50 |
| escapist | Ok, break it down i need to read 1600 books of highly speciased reasearch to talk with you again? | 10:52 |
| escapist | These scene will break down, no newcomers. | 10:53 |
| kanzure | i didn't say you're not allowed to talk to me, i said you should read the wiki, and you should | 10:56 |
| kanzure | look, even if it was a forum, you would still have to read the fucking content | 10:56 |
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| escapist | I agree, i realize that i do not want a forum. | 10:57 |
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| FourFire | escapist, a lot of the nessecary information which you need to get from people is the terms for concepts, which you can then learn about on your own, also the relations between these concepts and how they are interconnected or interdependent | 10:59 |
| escapist | ok, i aamjustoverwhelmed by the 1600 books, FourFire can you give a short list "What to do and then ask again"? | 11:01 |
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| FourFire | such a list is dynamic and dependent on your current knowledge (of which I can't possibly know) and what you need to know in order to accomplish your goal | 11:02 |
| FourFire | escapist, what is your question? | 11:03 |
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| escapist | My question where should i start. You are right that you can not know what i can do or can not, but i know which parts i can skip. so giving a recomend listof thinks to read(around 20 books) maybe i know where to start | 11:05 |
| kanzure | why is "read the wiki" not an appropriate answer? | 11:05 |
| FourFire | ok reading the backlog, escapist I think you should begin to read the wiki entries which kanzure liked you | 11:05 |
| kanzure | it's less than 20 fucking pages. screw you. | 11:05 |
| FourFire | linked* | 11:05 |
| FourFire | read them, and when those lead you to further things, read those further things, if there's some complex concept you don't understand, google/wikipedia it first, and if you can't figure it out, ask in here | 11:06 |
| FourFire | escapist, if you are overwhelemed by 1600 books, then don't see it as 1600 books, see it as first 16 books, and afterwards 16 more books | 11:07 |
| FourFire | and so on | 11:07 |
| escapist | faq done, i do not ger te structure of the wiki, it confusing. The wiki has no real starting point. There something called optimization in informatic. It means you readuce the run time of your algorythm to get the needed result. You say i should start with the first 16 books. In which order? Because starting with a is maybe not the best idea because in worst case all information i needed was in book started with zy and so i | 11:10 |
| FourFire | escapist Er du Svenska? | 11:10 |
| kanzure | the wiki's starting point is the front page, just like any other stupid website | 11:11 |
| kanzure | argh how many times do i have to tell you about cutoff. check the logs: http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-05-10.log | 11:11 |
| escapist | in the wiki, lots of sub-sub-sub categoriers. They do not interest me as a starter. The starting page offers me a structure of the wiki, but where i start in the wiki at a-a-a-a it is not the efficient way of doing things @log i downloaded 250 mb of them. | 11:14 |
| kanzure | that's not why i mentioned the logs | 11:15 |
| kanzure | i mentioned the logs because of cutoff in your messages | 11:15 |
| kanzure | so that you can see what the cutoff looks like | 11:15 |
| kanzure | go look | 11:15 |
| kanzure | escapist: since you hate everything i have suggested so far, can you propose a better sequence of tools and instructions than already provided through the biohacking faq and the other content on the wiki? | 11:17 |
| cluckj | a specific question about a particular topic might help, too | 11:18 |
| escapist | I am just overwhelmed by it i not hate but that is not the point. I will propose a get:started in the wiki and a jargon file. How the get started should look like. Starting at the basics link to good explanation for example for Dna, how cells get energy and such basic stuff, than link to level:2 in which you explain thinks build on this build on these basics and then on level:3 the user has the choice which he i particular i | 11:22 |
| kanzure | you still don't understand the concept of cutoff | 11:23 |
| escapist | about the basic chemicals used dna splitting and what they do. ... Ok tell me the concept i am missing? | 11:23 |
| kanzure | .d cutoff | 11:23 |
| yoleaux | cut-off (): n. 1. A point or level which is a designated limit of something: 2,500 g is the standard ⁓ below which infants are categorized as ‘low birthweight’ — http://is.gd/g7KagI | 11:23 |
| kanzure | look at the log and compare it to the message you sent: http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-05-10.log | 11:24 |
| escapist | you mean i am missing some kind of information between resfreshes? | 11:24 |
| kanzure | no | 11:25 |
| FourFire | escapist, you should read the things which seemed relevant from reading the wiki | 11:25 |
| kanzure | .g irc text truncation | 11:26 |
| yoleaux | https://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/4753 | 11:26 |
| kanzure | .t | 11:26 |
| yoleaux | Sat, 10 May 2014 18:26:47 UTC | 11:26 |
| kanzure | .title | 11:26 |
| yoleaux | #4753 (IRC messages silently truncated to first ~500 characters) – Pidgin | 11:26 |
| FourFire | escapist, Your messages are ending at 500 letters so we can only see some of what you are saying | 11:27 |
| FourFire | from your end it looks like your messages are getting sent, but they aren't look at the logs to see where they cutoff | 11:27 |
| escapist | ok, now i understand. | 11:27 |
| delinquentme | http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nmeth.2938.html | 11:27 |
| kanzure | .title | 11:27 |
| yoleaux | Bone marrow–on–a–chip replicates hematopoietic niche physiology in vitro | 11:27 |
| kanzure | why does it have to be a chip if it's in vitro | 11:27 |
| FourFire | I think there's a page similar to a jargon file on the wiki | 11:28 |
| delinquentme | idk, just cant explain it | 11:28 |
| escapist | ok, where? | 11:28 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=f48e23fe Bryan Bishop: also grab the reprap.org wiki >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/wikis/ | 11:30 |
| escapist | I am going to make the collection of information i need now, wjen i understand the most and send it to you guys | 11:37 |
| escapist | What format you think is the best a latex document? | 11:40 |
| kanzure | you can add latex files to the wiki by following the instructions on the front page | 11:42 |
| escapist | good idea? | 11:43 |
| escapist | you mean oushing up via git? | 11:44 |
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| kanzure | you can edit the wiki over http or via git, i don't care | 11:47 |
| escapist | i do not thik this wise, because i am not a native speaker and i do not belive in my english that much | 11:47 |
| kanzure | then write in your native language | 11:47 |
| kanzure | who cares | 11:47 |
| escapist | ok, | 11:47 |
| escapist | :-) | 11:47 |
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| escapist | Can tell me the most important subtopics of transhumanism in your opinion | 11:50 |
| kanzure | can you explain how the links i provided did not do that | 11:50 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration has an entire list about that... i think you haven't actually looked. | 11:51 |
| escapist | what is nootropics? | 11:52 |
| kanzure | .d nootropics | 11:52 |
| yoleaux | nootropic (/ˌnəʊəˈtrəʊpɪk, -ˈtrɒpɪk/): adj. (Of a drug) used to enhance memory or other cognitive functions; n. A nootropic drug — http://is.gd/P6SXAq | 11:52 |
| kanzure | .ety nootropic | 11:52 |
| yoleaux | Sorry, I couldn't find the etymology of that. | 11:52 |
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| kanzure | fenn: i forget if you complained about https://github.com/jazzido/tabula yet | 14:54 |
| kanzure | http://www.tagspaces.org/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7726359 shitty gui for tagging files | 14:55 |
| kanzure | "Very nice, but a stopper for me is that if you have a pdf with the name "foobar.pdf" on your disk and tag it with TagSpaces with the tags Sciences, Thermodynamics you end up with a file "foobar[Sciences Thermodynamics].pdf". The tags are directly encoded into the file names." | 14:55 |
| kanzure | http://www.raphkoster.com/2014/05/07/the-financial-future-of-game-developers/ | 15:01 |
| kanzure | wait, no, nevermind | 15:02 |
| kanzure | i take it back | 15:02 |
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| catern | kanzure: why would he complain about tabula, looks handyt | 16:04 |
| kanzure | iirc there's something they are lying about in their marketing materials | 16:04 |
| kanzure | i just forget whta | 16:04 |
| kanzure | *what | 16:04 |
| kanzure | http://reprap.org/wiki/Metal_deposition_print_head | 16:06 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=5462af1d Bryan Bishop: homecmos/semiconductor stuff >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/homecmos/wet-etch-recipes/ | 16:09 |
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| kanzure | oh man, 2007? http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=387459&cid=21680045 | 16:14 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: how the hell long have we known each other | 16:14 |
| ebowden | paperbot: http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-007-5539-0_9# | 16:20 |
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| QuantumG | kanzure: for, like, ever | 16:46 |
| QuantumG | 2007 I believe | 16:47 |
| QuantumG | "Hey there. I was going to reply to your post via Slashdot, but decided | 16:47 |
| QuantumG | a private response may be better." | 16:47 |
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| kanzure | okie dokie | 16:48 |
| kanzure | "It's actually worse than that. I did my PhD in a lab that did brain computer interfaces as part of the same DARPA initiative. We were supposed to use the DEKA arm but they insisted on owning all IP to come out of the research, even if it had nothing to do with robotics. Obviously that didn't happen. DEKA is basically Intellectual Ventures with better PR." | 16:54 |
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| fenn | i hear you can't even buy the iBot anymore? unless it's for non-medical purposes. what's up with that | 18:19 |
| fenn | FDA-- | 18:19 |
| fenn | Huey 091 Foundation is working to restart the manufacture of the iBOT Mobility System, one of the most advanced mobility devices yet developed. | 18:23 |
| fenn | Our goal is to employ a workforce of military veterans to build, distribute and maintain new iBOTS. | 18:23 |
| kanzure | ooh, yeah i wonder if veterans can beat the fda | 18:23 |
| kanzure | too bad they're all dead from their lack of medical benefits | 18:23 |
| fenn | lol the home front hasn't been going so well so far | 18:23 |
| kanzure | fucked either way to tuesday | 18:24 |
| fenn | i'd like to get some veterans, put em to work | 18:25 |
| fenn | the more bitter the better | 18:25 |
| fenn | you see i'm a gourmet | 18:26 |
| fenn | .d gourmand | 18:26 |
| yoleaux | gourmand (/ˈgʊəmənd, ˈgɔː-/): n. A person who enjoys eating and often eats too much — http://is.gd/pV9cs7 | 18:26 |
| kanzure | "veterans against the fda", who could object | 18:27 |
| fenn | the people who are currently screwing them? | 18:27 |
| kanzure | "adorable little girls with cancer against the fda"? | 18:27 |
| fenn | oh, cancer kids get whatever they want | 18:27 |
| kanzure | spoiled brats | 18:28 |
| fenn | "make a wish foundation - all medicine is now free, you're welcome" | 18:28 |
| kanzure | "my wish is for the fda to stop fucking me over" | 18:28 |
| fenn | i wonder how shielded the cancer kids are from all the administrative bullshit | 18:28 |
| kanzure | better than parading around as batman for a day, do some real hero work kid | 18:29 |
| fenn | yeah save SF from evil Genentech :P | 18:29 |
| fenn | why is it we have the segway, an essentially useless technology, but not the ibot, a huge glaring gap in capability | 18:30 |
| kanzure | why do hot dogs come in packages of 12, but buns in packages of 8? | 18:32 |
| kanzure | when you can answer my question, i will answer yours | 18:32 |
| fenn | "Because of certain FDA certifications / ratings relating to safety, we cannot sell or distribute the iBOT unless you have a prescription and undergo user training. We really wish we could sell them to roboticists, but unfortunately, that would result in loosing the very costly certification." the truth is exposed! roboticists are to blame, obviously | 18:33 |
| kanzure | a prescription? really? | 18:33 |
| kanzure | all that egalitarian transhumanist bullshit should have been directed at that fucking racket, not at me | 18:34 |
| fenn | kanzure: because hot dogs are foot long and buns are 8 inches, the lineal quantities match | 18:34 |
| kanzure | fucking james hughes | 18:34 |
| kanzure | i lied i just wanted a hot dog | 18:34 |
| fenn | james hughes what | 18:34 |
| kanzure | the fucking "everyone who doesn't believe in democratic transhumanist egaltarianism bullshit is a hyperterrorist" wta person | 18:34 |
| kanzure | ieet? | 18:35 |
| fenn | oh like 'bomb the brown people with love' sort of stuff | 18:35 |
| kanzure | "Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies" | 18:35 |
| kanzure | http://ieet.org/index.php/ieet/bio/hughes | 18:35 |
| fenn | yeah i've read some of their stuff | 18:35 |
| fenn | it can be interesting | 18:35 |
| kanzure | well, they should be arguing against prescriptions, not against me | 18:35 |
| fenn | why are they arguing against you? i'm confused | 18:36 |
| kanzure | because i had a dissenting opinion ("instead of making fake magazines and terrible conferences, what if we built hardware that did things?") | 18:36 |
| fenn | is it just a "so vicious because the stakes are so low" situation? | 18:36 |
| kanzure | oh definitely | 18:36 |
| fenn | "What will jail terms be like when humans can live for centuries?" simple, they'll be the same as they always were, but you'll be denied the "medically unnecessary" life extension treatments because death is not defined as a disease by the government | 18:37 |
| kanzure | they are also some of the "but what about the gap between rich/poor" morons | 18:38 |
| kanzure | your rich/poor gap doesn't matter if you can't get them cheap equipment anyway | 18:38 |
| fenn | why aren't there any vigilante international organizations of dudes with tanks | 18:39 |
| kanzure | they are called pirates and they live in the ocean | 18:39 |
| kanzure | they use something called the sea-tank | 18:39 |
| fenn | pirates are just poor somalians apparently | 18:39 |
| kanzure | are there machine shops on us navy carrier vessels? | 18:40 |
| kanzure | and are they stable | 18:40 |
| fenn | yes, lots of them | 18:40 |
| fenn | i dunno what you mean stable, an aircraft carrier has a pretty low natural frequency | 18:40 |
| kanzure | uh how low? | 18:40 |
| fenn | i have no idea. 0.01 hertz how's that | 18:40 |
| kanzure | huh. | 18:40 |
| fenn | .wa natural frequency of an aircraft carrier | 18:41 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, no result! | 18:41 |
| fenn | .wa length of an aircraft carrier? | 18:41 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, no result! | 18:41 |
| fenn | useless! | 18:41 |
| fenn | do they even look at the failed queries | 18:41 |
| kanzure | .wa wolfram alpha query failure rate | 18:42 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: Sorry, no result! | 18:42 |
| kanzure | .wa calibrate | 18:42 |
| fenn | .wa what can you do | 18:42 |
| yoleaux | How can you help me?: Response: I can help you to compute. | 18:42 |
| yoleaux | Kalibrate Technologies (KLBT): Recent returns: day: month: YTD: year: 5 year; -0.84%: -8.49%: +2.6%: | | 18:42 |
| fenn | whatever happened with mike treder? | 18:44 |
| kanzure | last mentioned 2012-03-18 by tim schmidt | 18:44 |
| fenn | Detroit police: Missing New York man crossed into Canada ... | 18:45 |
| kanzure | abducted by secret transhumanist organization known as hplusroadmap | 18:46 |
| fenn | lol | 18:46 |
| fenn | our detroit international time travel smuggling operation | 18:46 |
| kanzure | it's a new department. | 18:48 |
| fenn | oh i see what actually happened now, it's all explained on his blog: http://miketreder.blogspot.com/ | 18:50 |
| kanzure | makes sense to me | 18:52 |
| fenn | lol "atlas shrugged" no wonder amtrak failed, we don't have reardon metal because the center for responsible nanotechnology is understaffed | 18:56 |
| kanzure | or because they are too busy writing ethics pamphlets | 18:57 |
| fenn | you know using yoleaux from the command line is like 5 times faster than googling in a web browser | 18:58 |
| fenn | i guess you could call the services directly from a python script | 18:58 |
| kanzure | just because you can transfer ethics doesn't mean you can beat them into building shit | 18:58 |
| kanzure | building things ins't like typing in a google query | 18:59 |
| kanzure | ethics also isn't | 18:59 |
| kanzure | i don't understand your analogy | 18:59 |
| fenn | there was no analogy | 18:59 |
| kanzure | oh good | 18:59 |
| fenn | i was looking up names of characters from atlas shrugged | 18:59 |
| kanzure | actually, how long does it take to write an ethics pamphlet anyway | 19:00 |
| kanzure | what are they doing with the other 300 days of their cow-sphere-year | 19:00 |
| fenn | how long is a piece of string | 19:00 |
| kanzure | .wa length of 1 string | 19:00 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: Sorry, no result! | 19:00 |
| kanzure | you heard the man | 19:00 |
| fenn | .wa 1/0 | 19:01 |
| yoleaux | 1/0: infinity^~ | 19:01 |
| fenn | whaaat | 19:01 |
| fenn | .wa freezing point of cat urine | 19:01 |
| yoleaux | elements: melting point: domestic cat: daily urine production: elements: melting point: 940°C (degrees Celsius); domestic cat: daily urine production: (100 to 200) cm³/day (cubic centimeters per day); | 19:01 |
| kanzure | why did feynman pick wolfram? | 19:01 |
| fenn | i'm not sure what you're referring to | 19:02 |
| kanzure | well, clearly "infinity^~" is what side of the debate wolfram falls on | 19:02 |
| kanzure | and who is wolfram to say | 19:02 |
| kanzure | and then i was wondering why feynman picked him | 19:02 |
| kanzure | out of everyone else he had pestering him | 19:02 |
| kanzure | like, why the fuck send this guy to space? | 19:02 |
| fenn | is that like a snark mark? like "hey we know it's supposed to be undefined but we're going to say infinity ha ha" | 19:02 |
| kanzure | most likely not | 19:03 |
| fenn | .wa ^~ | 19:03 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, no result! | 19:03 |
| fenn | .wa ~ | 19:03 |
| yoleaux | ~ (character): Visual form: http://is.gd/od1wG2; Name: tilde; Encodings: ASCII: 126 (hex: 7e: octal: 176: binary: 01111110); Unicode: U+007E (decimal: 126); HTML: ~; Computer keyboards containing "~": US English keyboard: United Kingdom keyboard: Chinese ChaJei keyboard: Japanese keyboard: Arabic (101) keyboard: Portuguese Brazilian abnt keyboard; Unicode classification: symbol > math | 19:03 |
| kanzure | hmm where is the evidence that wolfram was going to be on apollo 17 | 19:03 |
| kanzure | wait, 17 is wrong | 19:04 |
| fenn | wait what? wolfram in space? i have no idea what you're talking about, perhaps you inadvertently passed through a time portal | 19:04 |
| kanzure | there was this whole thing | 19:04 |
| kanzure | an entire whole thing where feynman was tutoring just one person | 19:04 |
| kanzure | and it was wolfram | 19:04 |
| kanzure | and something about the brightest scientist going to spaaaace | 19:04 |
| kanzure | i swear this wasn't a fanfic | 19:04 |
| kanzure | the guy brags about everything, this has to be somewhere | 19:05 |
| fenn | i'd think even if it were a hoax/satire it would be findable | 19:06 |
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| fenn | the only physicists/mathematician astronauts i see are ronald macnair and story musgrave (much more cosmonauts probably) | 19:09 |
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| kanzure | well, i remember feynman's name being mentioned in the same blurb | 19:10 |
| kanzure | and it was a cancelled mission | 19:10 |
| eudoxia | on the subject of wolfram, here's some smug lisp-related bullshit http://www.ymeme.com/why-wolfram-%28mathematica%29-did-not-use-lisp.html | 19:10 |
| fenn | young Wolfram wrote Feynman a rant letter talking about the surplus of "stupid fools" in the world who are dragging down his great genius, something surely Feynman could relate to. In a curt and unfriendly response Feynman diplomatically points out that Wolfram is an idiot who hates people. | 19:10 |
| fenn | http://www.lettersofnote.com/2010/06/you-dont-understand-ordinary-people.html | 19:11 |
| kanzure | nice :) | 19:11 |
| kanzure | that is great | 19:11 |
| eudoxia | feynman was such a bro, and a lisper too | 19:11 |
| fenn | a "bro" | 19:12 |
| fenn | why would you even say that | 19:12 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure you have much recourse after being called a hateful idiot by feynman | 19:12 |
| kanzure | what else is there in life after this | 19:12 |
| fenn | "Find a way to do your research with as little contact with non-technical people as possible, with one exception, fall madly in love! That is my advice, my friend. | 19:12 |
| kanzure | iirc feynman didn't exactly have sane views on relationsihps | 19:13 |
| kanzure | but whatever | 19:13 |
| fenn | what's a sane view on relationships | 19:13 |
| kanzure | it's okay to know non-technical people | 19:14 |
| fenn | it made sense in the context of the letter | 19:14 |
| kanzure | well, ok | 19:14 |
| kanzure | .title http://tech.mit.edu/V119/N10/col10lipman.10c.html | 19:15 |
| yoleaux | Finding the Real Feynman | 19:15 |
| kanzure | hah " His fellow physicist Murray Gell-Mann grumbled that he “spent a great deal of time and energy generating anecdotes about himself,”" | 19:15 |
| kanzure | i bet that one's made up by him too | 19:15 |
| QuantumG | does anyone you know say "legend" when they mean caption? | 19:19 |
| kanzure | they sometimes mean "table next to a graph" | 19:20 |
| fenn | a legend is not the same thing as a caption | 19:20 |
| fenn | but they are both explanatory text for a graphic | 19:20 |
| QuantumG | "When including a figure, do not forget to add a succinct legend mentioning exercise number, question number and type of plot." | 19:20 |
| fenn | yeah that should be caption | 19:21 |
| QuantumG | everyone's told her that "legend" is the wrong word, she continues to use the word incorrectly. | 19:21 |
| FourFire | legend is like instructions on how to use a map | 19:21 |
| kanzure | have you considered quitting | 19:22 |
| QuantumG | nah | 19:22 |
| fenn | a legend is metadata about the symbols in the graphic or descriptions of what the symbols mean | 19:22 |
| kanzure | fenn: hm, so, maybe the first step is affirming whether or not feynman eventually took wolfram up | 19:22 |
| kanzure | s/affirming/confirming | 19:22 |
| fenn | a caption is metadata about the graphic itself, explaining what the graphic overall means | 19:22 |
| eudoxia | fenn: that's usually called a reference (metadata about symbols...) | 19:23 |
| eudoxia | the word legend is the default in the spanish versions of Microsoft Office when creating plots and shit | 19:23 |
| kanzure | are you really using spanish microsoft office? | 19:23 |
| eudoxia | haha no | 19:24 |
| eudoxia | but i used it in the past | 19:24 |
| eudoxia | when i was a kid | 19:24 |
| eudoxia | who didn't know better | 19:24 |
| eudoxia | also at school | 19:24 |
| fenn | "an inscription motto or title placed on a shield or beneath an engraving or illustration." uh okay | 19:24 |
| fenn | so if you want to call it a legend, you have to include the shield and heraldry | 19:24 |
| QuantumG | heh | 19:25 |
| fenn | "Legend" implies that its entries are generics, as with terrain types on a map, while "key" implies that its entries are specific, as with one symbol designating the Museum of Natural History, another the Metropolitan Museum of Art, etc. | 19:27 |
| fenn | oh here we go | 19:28 |
| fenn | etymology time | 19:28 |
| fenn | A "Caption" used to be a box you put at the top of a map, hence the "Cap" part. The "Legend" is the explanatory information within a Caption that allows you to understand how to use the map, especially the Keys. It is a syllogistic synopsis, a short story if you will. The "Keys" are the symbols and numbers within the Caption that the Legend explains. | 19:28 |
| kanzure | hmm so whaqt if the nasa/wolfram thing is fake | 19:55 |
| kanzure | where did i get it from, then? | 19:55 |
| eudoxia | sometimes you think you saw something on the internet and swear it up and down | 19:56 |
| eudoxia | and then you can't find it and you're like "did i just make this up?" | 19:56 |
| fenn | this is why i went with the time portal hypothesis | 19:57 |
| kanzure | are you just repeating what i say back to me | 19:57 |
| fenn | For a long time, Avdeyev held the record for time dilation experienced by a human being. n his 747 days aboard Mir, cumulative across three missions, he went approximately 27,360 km/h and thus aged roughly 0.02 seconds (20 milliseconds) less than an Earthbound person would have, which is considerably more than any other human being, except Sergei Krikalev. | 19:58 |
| fenn | 20 milliseconds is more than i would have expected | 19:58 |
| kanzure | yeah but what about computer internet radiation particles, surely those have some modifying effect | 19:58 |
| fenn | normally quantum bogon flux from chronic suit exposure leads to the forgetting of history | 19:59 |
| fenn | as demonstrated by the "quantum bogon bit erasure experiment" | 20:00 |
| eudoxia | i wonder if the ability to google things in an instant is slowly destroying my memory | 20:00 |
| kanzure | "We should also note Steward Brand's 1999 comment: the internet could “easily become the Legacy System from Hell that holds civilization hostage. The system doesn’t really work, it can’t be fixed, no one understands it, no one is in charge of it, it can’t be lived without, and it creates spontaneous time warps that fuck with all its users to create a twisted fucked up maze of human thought and history, and it gets worse every year.”" | 20:00 |
| fenn | eudoxia: you and every tech writer trying to come up with an article by wednesday | 20:00 |
| justanotheruser | If anyone has any criticisms of this pseudoFAQ I just made, let me know. bitcoin.it/wiki/altcoin | 20:00 |
| kanzure | criticism 1: use urls | 20:01 |
| justanotheruser | https://bitcoin.it/wiki/altcoin | 20:01 |
| kanzure | auroracoin should be clarified to not be a government initiative | 20:01 |
| justanotheruser | Sorry, I didn't add counterparty because I don't have a full understanding of it yet | 20:02 |
| kanzure | counterparty is probably more like mastercoin than these | 20:02 |
| kanzure | it's just OP_RETURN metadata stuff | 20:02 |
| eudoxia | i don't really get it either but apparently i own 1% of kanzure or something | 20:02 |
| kanzure | sure why not | 20:03 |
| fenn | auroracoin: minted from the skin of crashed A-21 reconnaissance planes | 20:03 |
| fenn | because where else can you find large quantites of a specific aged titanium alloy | 20:04 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: page looks okay, most of my battles these days are with people trying to apply blockchain to anything ("since it's popular, it must be a good idea in every situation!") | 20:05 |
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| kanzure | justanotheruser: i also think the "useful cryptocurrencies" section will end up being polarizing or subject of intense edit wars | 20:05 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: changed auroracoin. Also, I don't fully know how the client handles that metadata. It isn't just storing values. | 20:05 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: for the same reason I post my controversial opinions on other websites :) | 20:06 |
| kanzure | counterparty runs a tiny client that just does json-rpc things against the local bitcoind server | 20:06 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: applying the block chain for bad reasons like what, voting? | 20:06 |
| kanzure | today's example is "art": hashing a gif, and then trying to assert that this is DRM | 20:07 |
| fenn | "SHA2 has had ASICs developed for it meaning there is a much smaller risk of centralization." should be "larger risk of centralization"? | 20:07 |
| kanzure | and then putting the hash in the blockchain | 20:07 |
| kanzure | and then claiming that it is smart property that knows its owner or some crap | 20:07 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: no | 20:07 |
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| kanzure | smart property is also dumb; i can just strip the electronics from your "smart property" and then your blockchain data is lying | 20:07 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: ASICs mean that it is much harder to optimize the algorithm to the point that it is easy to get 51% | 20:08 |
| fenn | justanotheruser: are you trying to say that SHA2 is more easy to centralize or more difficult to centralize? | 20:08 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: difficult | 20:08 |
| kanzure | fenn: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf | 20:08 |
| justanotheruser | Thanks kanzure was just about to link that | 20:09 |
| kanzure | i take steroids to type faster | 20:09 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: you're right about the smart property, but there are legal incentives to not break in. It is like explaining the point of a deed | 20:09 |
| kanzure | but why not just use a different database or some other solution | 20:10 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: because a central authority can't redesignate the property to someone else | 20:10 |
| justanotheruser | But I guess the enforcers are a central authority... | 20:10 |
| kanzure | property has centralized authority, PLUS other stuff like a physical presence that can be stolen, squatted, etc | 20:11 |
| kanzure | cars can be carjacked | 20:11 |
| kanzure | phones can be phonejacked | 20:11 |
| QuantumG | perhaps the difference between ownership and possession is worth expounding. | 20:12 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: regarding art being hashed, why isn't it useful? It proves I made something and could be considered prior art if someone trays to patent my idea | 20:12 |
| kanzure | there are certain guarantees that proof-of-work can provide, especially for electronically-origiating assets (like money, shares, bonds, etc.,), but non-electronically-originating assets.. i'm not so sure about yet. | 20:12 |
| kanzure | technically the uspto does not actually respect prior art | 20:12 |
| justanotheruser | Hmm | 20:12 |
| eudoxia | nickcolor.pl is terrible | 20:12 |
| justanotheruser | Ill remove it for now | 20:13 |
| kanzure | timestamping a hash is an okay idea, but people have been proposing that forever (and i don't see why it should have anything to do with "DRM") | 20:13 |
| kanzure | however, i'm willing to listen to proposals, i guess | 20:14 |
| fenn | eudoxia: yeah it should color every letter differently :P | 20:14 |
| justanotheruser | Well at the very least, it could be used to prove who plagerized who | 20:15 |
| kanzure | first-to-file or first-to-invent | 20:15 |
| kanzure | same problem | 20:15 |
| fenn | justanotheruser: i think the confusion about alt hashing algorithms leading to more centralization/decentralization could be better explained in the article | 20:15 |
| kanzure | read https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf | 20:16 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: what isn't clear | 20:16 |
| fenn | i'm saying i shouldn't have to read the pdf | 20:16 |
| kanzure | the pdf is actually good :( | 20:16 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: he may understand, but the article may be confusing | 20:16 |
| kanzure | is the wiki page supposed to replace the pdf? | 20:16 |
| kanzure | the pdf is about asics, but your page was about altcoins | 20:16 |
| fenn | "Changing the hashing algorithm is one of the most common and easiest changes you can make. This is why a majority of altcoins have a different hashing algorithm." this doesn't explain why the authors of altcoins have decided that changing the hashing algorithm was a good idea in the first place | 20:16 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: yeah, but if 2 or 3 sentences would make it more clear, I would prefer it be in the article | 20:17 |
| fenn | it wasn't "to be easier to mine" it was "to make it harder to develop ASIC" from what i understand | 20:17 |
| kanzure | andytoshi: ping, see fenn's comment | 20:17 |
| fenn | ASIC is a rather centralized technology due to its dependency on multi-billion dollar circuit fabs | 20:18 |
| fenn | (so is computers in general but meh) | 20:18 |
| fenn | access to these fabs is not guaranteed by any means | 20:18 |
| kanzure | grep fabs \#bitcoin-wizards.log | 20:19 |
| fenn | i can easily see a future in which fabbing of bitcoin miner ASICs is illegal | 20:19 |
| * fenn reads the pdf now | 20:19 | |
| justanotheruser | fenn: would "Making mining 'easy' is done by making ASIC creation hard. If ASICs are hard to make, it will be profitable to CPU mine for much longer" be OK? | 20:20 |
| justanotheruser | Or does that not lead one to the conclusion that ASIC-hardness/CPU-easyness leads to centralization | 20:22 |
| fenn | maybe you should define what "centralization" means too | 20:23 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: is " When a mining algorithm is difficult to make ASICs for, you risk a group creating ASICs and monopolizing the market" not good enough? | 20:24 |
| fenn | so there's a difference between "leads to centralization" and "risk of leading to centralization" | 20:27 |
| fenn | please be patient with me, my brain is not working right today | 20:28 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: no, the article should be understandable to everyone, it is appreciatex | 20:28 |
| justanotheruser | There is a risk of centralization, but I think I cover that they can avoid that centralization implicitly " If these cryptocurrencies do have a healthy number of companies producing ASICs and have avoided centralization, they still have algorithms that take longer to verify than SHA2 in use." | 20:30 |
| fenn | maybe it should be organized like this: "Different hashing algorithm: alt coins have chosen different hashing algorithms. (list of algorithms and coins.) the hashing algorithm used for bitcoin is SHA2. discussion of strengths and weaknesses of SHA2. discussion of strengths and weaknesses of alt algorithms. comparison of sha2 and alt algorithms. | 20:31 |
| fenn | then you can talk about asics and centralization and whether asic leads to centralization or decentralization] | 20:31 |
| kanzure | at-home cmos fabrication, if it received a burst of bitcoin funding, might be able to produce simple enough instructions that non-billion-dollar foundries could be established by individuals who want to make not-quite-cutting-edge asics | 20:32 |
| fenn | as it is, you're starting with the conclusion "asic leads to decentralization" and shitting all over alt currencies without explaining why exactly | 20:32 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: in general, an alt algorithm is not good if it has the ASIC hurdle, so I grouped all non-sha2 algos together | 20:32 |
| fenn | you need to explain why it's not good to make it hard to develop an asic | 20:32 |
| kanzure | i suspect that the altcoin "we need to keep cpu mining as long as possible" reasoning might just be whatever someone came up with, instead of actually thinking through whether or not cpu-only mining is rational | 20:33 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: so the paragraph directly under the list should go up? | 20:33 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: I suspect CPU mining is a good feature to advertise, so if will help their pump and dump | 20:33 |
| fenn | what's to stop a government from just making 1 billion dollars worth of asics and blowing everyone out of the water? | 20:34 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: only the fact that it would cost $1bn | 20:34 |
| fenn | but there is already way more than $1b in existing computer hardware available to dedicate to bitcoin | 20:34 |
| kanzure | and by the time the government is organized enough in that fashion, it will cost $100 billion by that time | 20:34 |
| kanzure | there's not $1B of government sha256 hardware | 20:35 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: no, a handful of ASICs would probably beat the worlds computing hardware | 20:35 |
| kanzure | is there a chart or graph that compares the bitcoin hashrate against the other shitty supercomputers? | 20:35 |
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| fenn | sorry, "more than $1b in existing computer hardware available to dedicate to ALTcoin" | 20:36 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: Bitcoin network: 0flops/s. Fastest computers in the world:terraflops/s | 20:36 |
| fenn | i'm not talking about supercomputers either | 20:36 |
| justanotheruser | Tough to compare | 20:36 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: good point | 20:36 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: I think so | 20:37 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: maybe by hypothetical number of transistors per network | 20:37 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: or joules | 20:37 |
| fenn | we go back to proof of work. ASIC is a "hack" around the proof of work because there's not as much "work" | 20:37 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: sure | 20:37 |
| kanzure | i dunno about that 'hack' explanation | 20:37 |
| kanzure | isn't it something more like: it's computing closer to the thermodynamic limit | 20:38 |
| fenn | assuming the thermodynamic limit means anything | 20:38 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: yeah, andytoshis paper puts it better than I ever could | 20:38 |
| kanzure | fenn: minimum energy requirement per computation | 20:38 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: as the paper explains, entropy is the scarcest resource in the universe | 20:38 |
| * justanotheruser sighs | 20:40 | |
| kanzure | what's wrong? | 20:40 |
| justanotheruser | I miss diablo or whatever your stalkers name is | 20:40 |
| kanzure | dantespeaks? | 20:40 |
| justanotheruser | Yes | 20:40 |
| kanzure | hah | 20:40 |
| kanzure | why? | 20:40 |
| justanotheruser | What he said was funny | 20:41 |
| kanzure | yes but unfortunately he was also a threatening stalker | 20:41 |
| kanzure | so, you know, the universe balances out | 20:41 |
| justanotheruser | Of course I'm not on the receiving end of the stalking | 20:41 |
| justanotheruser | Oh, I didn't know he was threatening. | 20:42 |
| kanzure | the dude thinks i can bring his mother back from the dead | 20:42 |
| kanzure | and that i'm his ticket into the united states | 20:42 |
| justanotheruser | I just thought things like him thinking he could convince you to give him hundreds of thousands of dollars | 20:42 |
| justanotheruser | Were funny | 20:42 |
| * fenn looks around, sees lots of atoms flying around unpredictably | 20:42 | |
| justanotheruser | Maybe you could use science to cure his delusions | 20:43 |
| fenn | i think you're talking about bit erasure generating heat in non-reversible computation, but i'm not sure | 20:43 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: well if you want more fodder, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/juls3.txt | 20:43 |
| kanzure | 20:10 <Lucius_Fox> wow you treat me like some kind of criminal. | 20:44 |
| justanotheruser | 580 messages vs 38 | 20:45 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: so do you have the part of the logs where he actually mentions the word 'mother' | 20:45 |
| eudoxia | i went through ten pages of google search results on these logs and couldn't fine one | 20:45 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: he uses multiple user names | 20:45 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: i suppose i could dig those up | 20:46 |
| justanotheruser | Lol nvm, much worse ratio | 20:46 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: (it was not in public) | 20:46 |
| eudoxia | oh cool | 20:46 |
| * justanotheruser can't tell if he's purposely lying or actually believes himself | 20:48 | |
| kanzure | that's quite a series of lies to keep up | 20:48 |
| fenn | "ASICs are good, because heat dissipation" what!! | 20:48 |
| kanzure | the reason i keep recognizing him when he coms in here is because he slips up | 20:48 |
| kanzure | *comes | 20:48 |
| fenn | do you know how many GW of heat a centralized nuclear reactor dissipates | 20:48 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: do you think he's among us now | 20:49 |
| kanzure | i am suspicious of entelchyios | 20:49 |
| kanzure | but he might just be an idiot | 20:49 |
| kanzure | or ebowden | 20:49 |
| juri_ | ebowden is safe | 20:50 |
| kanzure | :shifty eyes: | 20:50 |
| juri_ | i brought him. | 20:50 |
| ebowden | What might I be? | 20:50 |
| fenn | definitely a CIA mole | 20:50 |
| juri_ | :P | 20:50 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: yeah, you need coolness for your ASIC to not overheat. That is why there is the opposite of economies of scale | 20:50 |
| kanzure | oh good, i always wanted a cia mole to play with | 20:50 |
| fenn | lol actually i'm the mostly likely candidate for CIA mole | 20:50 |
| kanzure | the conspiracy nut? yeah.. | 20:51 |
| * justanotheruser is a FDA mole | 20:51 | |
| ebowden | LOL | 20:51 |
| kanzure | uh oh | 20:51 |
| fenn | justanotheruser: that's bad logic | 20:51 |
| ebowden | The FDA is a bit understaffed for that. | 20:51 |
| fenn | justanotheruser: and it ignores the reality of HVAC engineering | 20:51 |
| kanzure | yeah, they have to monitor basically everything | 20:51 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: why? | 20:51 |
| kanzure | no way they have enough staff | 20:51 |
| fenn | justanotheruser: ok why do we still use nuclear power instead of windmills and solar | 20:52 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: because it is more effecient | 20:52 |
| fenn | but most people would rather have windmills and solar | 20:52 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: because they falsely believe there is less risk? | 20:53 |
| fenn | why is it more efficient to mine uranium, purify it, train people in esoteric arts of nuclear physics, build big high security concrete facilities with lots of special pipes and stuff | 20:53 |
| justanotheruser | Because of the amount of energy produced through fission? I don't see how this is related | 20:54 |
| fenn | also you can't put a nuclear reactor just anywhere, usually it needs to be near a river | 20:54 |
| eudoxia | solar is better, eleitl said so, that settles it | 20:54 |
| * eudoxia wins first prize in the transhumanism science fair | 20:54 | |
| kanzure | first prize is a kickban | 20:54 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: but you can put an ASIC anywhere with (preferably cheap) electricity | 20:54 |
| fenn | your "ASICs are good because heat dissipation" is almost identical to the nuclear/solar fight | 20:55 |
| eudoxia | :( | 20:55 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: please concretely explain what your concern is | 20:55 |
| fenn | my concern is you've jumped to conclusion about hashing algorithms based on some physics/engineering argument that doesn't make sense | 20:55 |
| fenn | i'm not saying that you're right or wrong, just that the argument doesn't work | 20:56 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: we want the max number of hashes per joule, whats wrong with that? | 20:56 |
| justanotheruser | If you are far from the max, you risk someone optimizing and 51% attacking. | 20:56 |
| fenn | joules are not equally distributed | 20:57 |
| justanotheruser | Nope, they're not. those in cold area will use those joules to heat their home | 20:58 |
| justanotheruser | *areas | 20:58 |
| fenn | joules are easy to centralize. see the past 8 decades of war | 20:59 |
| fenn | the shah/iran thing was all about oil (joules) | 20:59 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: what is your concern with centralized power production and bitcoin? | 20:59 |
| fenn | the US/soviet thing was all about nuclear (joules) | 20:59 |
| fenn | why do you think relying on centralized fabs and centralized power production somehow leads to decentralization? | 21:00 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: even in altcoins, the fabs and power are centralized | 21:01 |
| cluckj | I wish I were a mole; I'd be getting paid for this | 21:01 |
| fenn | here's an idea: an algorithm that is extremely vulnerable to viruses would be difficult to centralize because mass production is vulnerable to virus | 21:01 |
| kanzure | what happened to that "natural research observation" stipend | 21:01 |
| fenn | er, diversity protects against virus i mean | 21:02 |
| * fenn reads the rest of the pdf | 21:02 | |
| cluckj | it doesn't last forever | 21:02 |
| kanzure | grad school? sure it does | 21:03 |
| kanzure | just ask gradstudentbot | 21:03 |
| kanzure | he's been here since forever | 21:03 |
| * kanzure wonders where gradstudentbot went | 21:03 | |
| cluckj | he graduated, duh | 21:03 |
| kanzure | not for long | 21:03 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: not sure what you mean. People would just make an ASIC that can't have a virus | 21:04 |
| fenn | virus is used in the general sense, code that fucks up your system | 21:04 |
| fenn | preferably self replicating information | 21:05 |
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| kanzure | eudoxia: i'll dig up the logs later. good night. | 21:05 |
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| ebowden | Out of curiosity, has this channel developed any pharmaceuticals yet? | 21:05 |
| ebowden | Night kanzure. | 21:05 |
| justanotheruser | There isn't really a trust less "proof of fucked up system". People would just pretend to have a fucked up system | 21:06 |
| fenn | no, the virus actually fucks up your system | 21:06 |
| fenn | in order to generate proof of work, you have to have a non-fucked system | 21:06 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: oh. | 21:07 |
| justanotheruser | Then people would just protect themselves. | 21:07 |
| justanotheruser | Which would probably be trivial | 21:07 |
| fenn | the bitcoin algorithm requires you to be connected to a network and perform a defined series of tasks on the network data, so there's only so much isolation you can do | 21:07 |
| ebowden | Well, by that I mean, what stuff have people here developed? | 21:08 |
| fenn | ebowden: we are useless wankers, what do you want | 21:08 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: it requires you to send a well defined set of messages and only execute sand boxed transaction scripts | 21:08 |
| ebowden | I was just curious. | 21:08 |
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| justanotheruser | The virus or whatever would be sandboxed | 21:08 |
| ebowden | Some people here seem terrified of the FDA. | 21:09 |
| eudoxia | good night kanzure | 21:09 |
| fenn | ok but it would still break the system running in the sandbox (by design) | 21:09 |
| justanotheruser | If you want to see viruses executed by the block chain, wait for etherum :) | 21:09 |
| fenn | ebowden: not terrified, just frustrated | 21:09 |
| ebowden | Well, I can understand that. | 21:10 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: seems like a bad design. How can a transaction evaluate to true if it crashes the sandbox | 21:10 |
| ebowden | But would the FDA, providing they had the resources, actually have a reason to put a mole in here? | 21:10 |
| justanotheruser | ebowden: yes. They sent me here to monitor Mr. Bishop | 21:11 |
| cluckj | lol | 21:11 |
| ebowden | LOL | 21:11 |
| ebowden | Who's Mr. Bishop? | 21:11 |
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| fenn | who is john galt | 21:12 |
| justanotheruser | ebowden: if you didnt know, why did you LOL | 21:12 |
| ebowden | The send you in to monitor part. | 21:12 |
| ebowden | *sent | 21:12 |
| justanotheruser | ebowden: anyways, he is the single biggest threat to the FDA | 21:12 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 21:12 |
| cluckj | lol | 21:12 |
| ebowden | Are you actually serious? | 21:12 |
| justanotheruser | ebowden: yes. | 21:13 |
| fenn | a man out of time, what dark mysteries lurk in his twisted mind | 21:13 |
| cluckj | super serious | 21:13 |
| justanotheruser | I have seen him offer medical advice on at least 27 different occasions. | 21:13 |
| cluckj | he does it almost as much as I do | 21:13 |
| ebowden | What kind of medical advice? | 21:13 |
| fenn | will we learn the truth of the Feynman-Wolfram-Sarumpaet graph traversal vehicle? | 21:14 |
| ebowden | And what about him makes him such a threat to the FDA? | 21:14 |
| justanotheruser | ebowden: It doesn't matter. Any medical advice is a risk to our citizens health. | 21:14 |
| eudoxia | didn't he once offer to install neuroimplants into anyone who showed up at his door | 21:14 |
| ebowden | LOL | 21:14 |
| cluckj | bad medical advice, or he wouldn't be a threat | 21:15 |
| fenn | once he reanimated a dog via SSH with nothing but a hacked robot arm and a hospital crash cart | 21:15 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: could we discuss this further in PM? Also, do you have a phone number I can contact you at? | 21:16 |
| fenn | no, i don't like talking on phones | 21:16 |
| fenn | do you want a more secure comm channel? | 21:16 |
| andytoshi | kanzure, fenn: i have two articles, the ASIC one and the alts one, both are supposed to be on the wiki and the wiki copies are supposed to supercede the PDFs (because on #bitcoin nobody trusts pdfs) but that isn't how it worked out, i never remember the wiki links and they're harder for me to keep up to date anyway.. | 21:17 |
| andytoshi | one sec, i'm reading the scrollback now.. | 21:17 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: If Mr. Bishop is attempting to reanimate dogs, we need to investigate. Your cooperation would be much appreciated. | 21:17 |
| fenn | oh i see. yes have the registered mail sent right over with the pre-prepared witness testimony and signature field clearly labeled | 21:18 |
| cluckj | also your social security number | 21:18 |
| fenn | also your bitcoin transaction number | 21:18 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: are you being a wise guy? | 21:18 |
| cluckj | also ya nan | 21:19 |
| fenn | ... not a number? | 21:19 |
| andytoshi | fenn: i am not going to do a list of PoW algos and coins, there is only one (scrypt) besides SHA2 which is used in an even remotely serious coin, and i talked about that one | 21:19 |
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| andytoshi | i'm not going to discuss altcoins as though they are worth considering, they are crank crypto and all i intended to do there is dismantle the common claims about PoW algos that they make | 21:20 |
| fenn | you can't debunk things by starting with the conclusion, it just "proves" that you don't like them | 21:20 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: if it will make you cooperate, my bitcoin txid is. 04ffff001d0104455468652054696d65732030332f4a616e2f32303039204368616e63656c6c6f72206f6e206272696e6b206f66207365636f6e64206261696c6f757420666f722062616e6b73 | 21:21 |
| andytoshi | fenn: "these aren't worth considering individually, so i will debunk the blanket claims made instead" is perfectly valid | 21:21 |
| andytoshi | common blanket claims* | 21:22 |
| juri_ | gmv | 21:23 |
| juri_ | um... | 21:23 |
| fenn | go back to sleep juri | 21:23 |
| justanotheruser | andytoshi: hi how are you | 21:23 |
| juri_ | http://demo1.faikvm.com/trac/wiki/Incentivization | 21:23 |
| andytoshi | fenn: in http://www.cypherpunks.to/faq/cyphernomicron/chapter5.html search for "I Have a New Idea for a Cipher", there is a good argument there for why cryptosystems are assumed broken by default | 21:24 |
| juri_ | please be gentle. i have RSI and can barely type. | 21:24 |
| andytoshi | hi justanotheruser, i'm good but tired, it's 11:30 here and i'm off to bed soon | 21:24 |
| andytoshi | juri_: you should switch to dvorak | 21:25 |
| juri_ | i have. | 21:25 |
| andytoshi | juri_: a CPU is way way way way way way way way more complicated than an ASIC, you can audit an asic design but no chance for a CPU | 21:26 |
| fenn | hmm.. i read some scifi story where the FTL drive ran on prime numbers.. they got stuck somewhere because someone had "double spent" the prime number they were counting on to get back, and the ship mathematician had to come up with a new algorithm for discovering primes or die of starvation... it was a metaphor for peak oil or something | 21:28 |
| andytoshi | in most cases i'd agree that free software is a good end in itself, in this case i think what we really want is maximum auditability (and not necessarily ease of modifaction) | 21:29 |
| fenn | it wasn't a monetary system, somehow the universe knew directly about prime numbers | 21:29 |
| andytoshi | so you want a design which leads to simple hardware rather than general-purpose hardware | 21:29 |
| andytoshi | that's a cool idea fenn, luckily our physics seem to have simpler laws than that | 21:30 |
| andytoshi | though who knows, maybe we can label everett branches in some way so the prime ones are happier.. | 21:30 |
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| fenn | "mine the primes" by julian todd: http://web.archive.org/web/20120312182345/http://www.freesteel.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Mine_the_Primes | 21:35 |
| andytoshi | super, it's short | 21:35 |
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| fenn | julian is interesting to me personally because he has an insider's view of programming commercial CAM software algorithms, for doing path planning of machine tool cutters | 21:36 |
| fenn | he talks quite a bit about the pros/cons of different strategies from a position of experience | 21:37 |
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| fenn | juri_: do you know about http://plover.stenoknight.com | 21:39 |
| kanzure | too bad none of the keyboards i keep buying have n-key rollover | 21:41 |
| juri_ | neat. | 21:41 |
| fenn | i think keyboards is the wrong way to go | 21:41 |
| juri_ | thanks. | 21:41 |
| fenn | i mean, if you're going to build a chording system, it should map to your hands better than some rectangular plane grid | 21:42 |
| fenn | at that point you might as well just use a microcontroller | 21:42 |
| kanzure | show me a chording system that has higher wpm and i'll look at it | 21:42 |
| kanzure | otherwise i reserve the right to continue to be bored | 21:43 |
| fenn | i'm talking about the hardware, not the mapping | 21:43 |
| fenn | uh. glug. | 21:43 |
| kanzure | mapping doesn't determine wpm | 21:43 |
| fenn | yes it does | 21:43 |
| juri_ | fenn: i'll accept help... | 21:43 |
| fenn | see huffman coding theory etc | 21:43 |
| kanzure | that's like claiming dvorak should cause me to type at 1/100th the speed, which is wrong | 21:43 |
| juri_ | it does me. | 21:43 |
| kanzure | you can't map anything to 6 keys | 21:44 |
| fenn | yes dvorak causes me to type at 1/100 speed :P | 21:44 |
| kanzure | if it requires more key presses you're going to go slower | 21:44 |
| juri_ | still learning... | 21:44 |
| andytoshi | i switched to dvorak for comfort reasons, not speed. i do think it's faster now that i've learned it but i don't think speed and comfort necessarily go together | 21:44 |
| fenn | kanzure: what are you talking about, they started out with ONE key using morse code | 21:44 |
| kanzure | one key is going to go slower than qwerty man | 21:45 |
| kanzure | no amount of mapping is going to fix your one key keyboard | 21:45 |
| andytoshi | well, there was keypresses and pauses | 21:45 |
| andytoshi | if 'pause' has meaning it's gonna be slow :) | 21:45 |
| kanzure | i would like to assume that pause has meaning | 21:45 |
| fenn | ok so where's your exosuit keyboard | 21:45 |
| fenn | shift tilt-neck pinky toe sphincter | 21:46 |
| kanzure | awaiting fda approval? i dunno | 21:46 |
| kanzure | dingo: is your custom keyboard fda-approved by any chance? | 21:46 |
| fenn | that's the shortcut for "send hate mail to FDA" | 21:46 |
| kanzure | this has been enlightening | 21:47 |
| kanzure | andytoshi: sup? | 21:47 |
| andytoshi | kanzure: not much, headed to bed once i'm done this prime number story, going to a jam tomorrow afternoon | 21:48 |
| andytoshi | you? | 21:48 |
| kanzure | i forget, something about stratum protocol proxying stuff | 21:48 |
| kanzure | "Why don't they make the whole damn plane out of the black box?" | 21:49 |
| dingo | Its not custom, just expensive | 21:50 |
| fenn | does bitcoin ASIC speedups decrease the wait time for transaction validation overall? | 21:51 |
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| kanzure | a block is mined on average every 10 minutes | 21:51 |
| kanzure | the difficulty is adjusted to target this time | 21:51 |
| fenn | why 10 minutes? | 21:51 |
| kanzure | ask satoshi? | 21:51 |
| kanzure | ask andytoshi | 21:52 |
| fenn | i mean it's a long time to wait in the checkout line when you just want a soda | 21:52 |
| fenn | i guess that's what exchanges are for tho | 21:53 |
| kanzure | some people don't wait for any confirmations, just basic validation (that the signature is right) | 21:53 |
| kanzure | fenn, did you see that study about data mining the web to do search for evidence of time travelers? | 21:54 |
| fenn | it was erased prior to publication | 21:54 |
| fenn | i mean, uh, no? | 21:54 |
| kanzure | me either | 21:55 |
| fenn | what were we talking about again? | 21:55 |
| andytoshi | if it is too small, the percentage of stale blocks (ones where the blockchain forks away from it) goes up, which is wasteful. and if it's really too small then the whole network doesn't hear of blocks in time, so it doesn't converge on a consensus | 21:55 |
| andytoshi | also short blocktimes mean more bandwidth and more validation to do | 21:55 |
| andytoshi | to the best of my knowledge 10 minutes was completely arbitrary, but those are the considerations | 21:55 |
| fenn | so it's related to internet latency? | 21:56 |
| fenn | but in some bizarre algorithmic way | 21:56 |
| andytoshi | yeah, it tries to be higher than the worst-case latency | 21:57 |
| andytoshi | given that bitcoin is a mesh p2p network and there might be crappy nodes out there | 21:57 |
| fenn | i can make an arbitrarily crappy node | 21:57 |
| fenn | even one that doesn't work at all :P | 21:58 |
| andytoshi | fenn: re "mine the primes", according to http://homes.cerias.purdue.edu/~ssw/shortage.pdf there are like 10^150 512-bit primes. i can find one on my laptop in under a second i bet. so primes are not so scarce after all | 21:58 |
| andytoshi | fenn: sure, but hopefully you aren't a nontrivial part of the hashrate with a node like that! | 21:58 |
| fenn | andytoshi: in the story it talks about how they thought primes were plentiful but it turns out they weren't | 21:59 |
| fenn | once you start blowing through huge numbers of something as a matter of course | 21:59 |
| andytoshi | oh, alright, i'll keep reading then.. | 21:59 |
| fenn | i thought that was at the beginning | 21:59 |
| andytoshi | oh, yeah, i've seen the part where they talk about it taking minutes, then hours | 22:00 |
| andytoshi | and also the claim that it gets exponentially harder | 22:00 |
| fenn | all the easily discovered primes were used for trivial crap | 22:00 |
| andytoshi | i'd claim that you can't even iterate through all the 1024-bit primes in the lifetime of the universe, and they're all easily discovered | 22:01 |
| andytoshi | also PRIMES is in P, there is a paper with that title, so it's not exponentian | 22:01 |
| kanzure | is this flatland for number theorists | 22:01 |
| kanzure | flatland for greg egan | 22:01 |
| fenn | is "exponentian" a typo? | 22:01 |
| andytoshi | yeah | 22:01 |
| andytoshi | exponential | 22:01 |
| andytoshi | damn dvorak.. | 22:01 |
| fenn | kanzure: it's peak oil for mathematicians, or something | 22:02 |
| fenn | kanzure: you remember freesteel.co.uk right, that's the author | 22:03 |
| fenn | "The human race had squandered all the easy to find numbers as fast as they could grab them" is the mcguffin description | 22:06 |
| andytoshi | fwiw most peak oil claims are also scientifically illiterate ;) | 22:07 |
| fenn | i'm not about to argue with an author about how his FTL drive doesn't make sense | 22:08 |
| andytoshi | lol | 22:08 |
| andytoshi | but it's so productive | 22:08 |
| andytoshi | it's a good story anyway, i'm just being a dick whining about the density of primes | 22:09 |
| fenn | oh speaking of FTL, this is thought provoking http://arxiv.org/abs/0708.0681 | 22:09 |
| fenn | two scientists say they have now tunneled photons "instantaneously" across a distance of up to one meter. | 22:10 |
| fenn | it might just be a re-iteration of a common physics misunderstanding, but i'm not familiar enough to know the difference between "wave packet shaping" and "information transfer" | 22:13 |
| fenn | ' If they can make photons go at whatever speed they say, isn't the flow of photons kinda what "light" is? .. So wouldn't it still be going at the speed of light not matter what "by definition"? | 22:14 |
| fenn | 'see the quantum mechnaics text book by LeBellac, it has a fairly good explaination of quantum teleportaion and why it does not violate reletivity.' blah | 22:15 |
| andytoshi | nah, the 'speed of light' refers to the c which appears in special relativity, which governs causal connectivity | 22:15 |
| andytoshi | and iirc this is the same old media understanding, no FTL information transfer | 22:16 |
| justanotheruser | How do I learn mechanics electricity and optics? Khan academy? | 22:17 |
| fenn | wikipedia! | 22:18 |
| fenn | for electricity i liked http://falstad.com/circuit/ | 22:18 |
| fenn | also you need to actually build stuff in the real world to ground your understanding | 22:19 |
| justanotheruser | I'm talking physics, not electronics btw | 22:19 |
| fenn | i regret to inform you that the real world is physics | 22:20 |
| fenn | i guess you mean static analysis | 22:21 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: yeah, and I'm talking about the physics behind electricity and magnetism | 22:21 |
| fenn | as far as i can tell, nobody knows much about "what is electricty, really" | 22:22 |
| fenn | i hear the feynman lectures are good | 22:22 |
| justanotheruser | OK thanks | 22:23 |
| fenn | 84MB one moment please | 22:25 |
| fenn | justanotheruser: http://fennetic.net/irc/Feynman_Lectures_on_Physics_Volumes_1_2_3_-_Feynman_and_Leighton_and_Sands.pdf | 22:28 |
| justanotheruser | Thanks | 22:28 |
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| fenn | NMR is probably another cheap lab equipment that should be doable | 22:50 |
| fenn | my understanding is that the signal to noise ratio is related to the length of time spent, the radio frequency electronics sensitivity, and the magnet strength. so there is a tradeoff that can prevent the requirement for a huge magnet | 22:53 |
| dingo | any feynman lecture is good | 23:07 |
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