| --- Log opened Sun May 11 00:00:01 2014 | ||
| drewbug | Is paperbot dead? :( | 00:13 |
|---|---|---|
| Viper168 | sounds like something a murderer would ask to throw off suspicion | 00:14 |
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| kanzure | death is just a state of mind | 06:30 |
| chris_99 | do you have a mind if you're dead | 06:32 |
| kanzure | hehe the original transistors had a diameter of 2.54 mm | 06:55 |
| kanzure | now what was the switching time? | 06:56 |
| chris_99 | heh interesting | 06:56 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=0baba94a Bryan Bishop: homebrew bitcoin ASICs >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/homecmos/bitcoin/ | 07:12 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=eb0ca9db Bryan Bishop: another homecmos wiki >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/wikis/ | 07:29 |
| kanzure | http://homecmos.drawersteak.com/mediawiki-1.20.3/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&days=3000&from=&limit=5000 | 07:39 |
| kanzure | "A new piny account ``fusheng liu'' has been created." | 07:47 |
| kanzure | "My snails are getting big and fat, and now plenty of small ones hatched. I think my breeding stock is secure now." | 07:50 |
| kanzure | "It would be nice to be able to prototype big inkjet structures on A4 format or larger." | 07:51 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=dae871b2 Fernando Borretti: Add section on the minimal toolset for DMS >> | 08:02 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=78e5383c Fernando Borretti: Add section on patterned epitaxy >> | 08:06 |
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| kanzure | you guys are boring | 09:31 |
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| fenn | oh now i see where you were going with the "history of circuits" stuff | 09:55 |
| fenn | don't hate me for saying this but i think a DNA framework computer is the best way to do distributed computer manufacturing | 09:57 |
| kanzure | no, history of circuits was just me being really confused | 09:58 |
| kanzure | and now i have animaltronics and i think i'm even more confused =) | 09:58 |
| fenn | bactronic | 10:00 |
| fenn | .wik bacterial nanowire | 10:00 |
| yoleaux | "Bacterial nanowires (also known as microbial nanowires) are electrically conductive appendages produced by a number of bacteria most notably from (but not exclusive to) the Geobacter and Shewanella genera." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacterial_nanowires | 10:00 |
| fenn | they solder themselves to a grain of iron and use it like a battery | 10:01 |
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| kanzure | but i don't want to have to position nanowires for the rest of my life | 10:03 |
| fenn | that's where the DNA self-assembly comes in | 10:04 |
| kanzure | is this theoretical dna self-assembly or the kind that has produced a working semiconductor device | 10:05 |
| fenn | i don't know, probably theoretical | 10:05 |
| kanzure | yawn.. | 10:05 |
| kanzure | isn't it too early in the morning for you to be postulating dna computers? | 10:05 |
| fenn | i read about this years ago | 10:05 |
| kanzure | why isn't the micrometer-scale photolithography of MOS/CMOS stuff more popular | 10:06 |
| fenn | so computer speed depends on two things, the capacitance of the transistor or a wire, and the distance a signal has to travel at the speed of light | 10:06 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure if speed is always important | 10:07 |
| fenn | with large feature size the capacitance goes up | 10:07 |
| kanzure | especially if you can just make a shitload of them | 10:07 |
| fenn | speed is not always important, for instance in camera sensors | 10:07 |
| fenn | i guess people are conditioned to think that not-totally-shit cameras are supposed to be expensive | 10:07 |
| fenn | but iphone camera replacements sell for $4 on ebay | 10:08 |
| fenn | uh.. the physical size of the pixel matters for light collection | 10:09 |
| kanzure | why are we suddenly talking about cameras | 10:09 |
| fenn | because it's a reasonable application of DIY photolithography | 10:09 |
| fenn | also LCOS displays | 10:09 |
| kanzure | well, another reasonable application is small circuits | 10:10 |
| fenn | aside from living in antarctica, why would i need to make small IC circuits when i can use a cheap general purpose microcontroller instead? | 10:11 |
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| fenn | anyway i think a DIY microcontroller is totally doable | 10:12 |
| fenn | a DIY FPGA would actually be useful | 10:12 |
| fenn | reconfigurable computing | 10:13 |
| fenn | bitcoin is boring | 10:13 |
| fenn | "let's look up hashes for eternity" | 10:13 |
| fenn | it's too bad ASIC got to the top of the heap so quickly, we could have seen a proliferation of DIY FPGA rigs and general know-how | 10:14 |
| fenn | well at least clusters of FPGA units | 10:15 |
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| fenn | i'm more worried about what we can do, not how we're going to transfer the money to someone | 10:16 |
| FourFire | A computing device consisting of a cluster of interredundant FPGA circuits is a pleasing concept to me | 10:16 |
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| chris_99 | that's how they prototype at Intel et. al | 10:20 |
| kanzure | because cheap general microcontrollers don't do sha256 fast enough | 10:30 |
| kanzure | fpgas were usable for a while but now they are too slow | 10:30 |
| kanzure | fenn: bitcoin is boring because it uses hashes? that's a silly statement | 10:47 |
| kanzure | fenn: git uses hashes, does that make git boring | 10:47 |
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| fenn | so can i buy people's old fpga bitcoin rigs? | 11:15 |
| chris_99 | sure | 11:16 |
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| dingo | ebay search it, you'll see it | 11:24 |
| dingo | the whole point being at some point the watts consumed doesn't pay off, lol | 11:24 |
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| Escapist | What do you think about bineural waves/beats? | 11:27 |
| fenn | just do LSD | 11:29 |
| andytoshi | Escapist: ime they do nothing at all | 11:31 |
| Escapist | I do not think about getting high, but booost thinking spped | 11:31 |
| andytoshi | i'd say better to practice meditation and focus | 11:31 |
| fenn | i'd say better to eat fish oil and eggs | 11:32 |
| andytoshi | that too | 11:32 |
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| fenn | so why isn't the russian government building nuclear reactors in the arctic to run bitcoin miners? | 11:33 |
| bkero | Are you sure they're not? | 11:35 |
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| chris_99 | this is why the ice is melting fenn | 11:37 |
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| Escapist | i must not eat eggs, campus where al our food comes from mensa so i can not go bulletproof | 11:39 |
| Escapist | andytoshi is there a special kinf of medition ou prefferand why? | 11:40 |
| fenn | wait, what's this about mensa? | 11:41 |
| Escapist | .d\ mensa | 11:42 |
| andytoshi | Escapist: idk anything about the various forms of meditation people talk about, i just try to think nothing (or more positively, think about something very simple, like a humming sound or my breathing) | 11:43 |
| Escapist | comes from the latin word for table is a place where pupils come together and eat stuff from the school | 11:43 |
| Escapist | what are benefits? | 11:44 |
| kanzure | ugh, quick vote to kick Escapist? y/n | 11:44 |
| fenn | n | 11:44 |
| andytoshi | i think he's fine | 11:44 |
| Escapist | i think my vioce do not count but n | 11:45 |
| kanzure | enjoy your low signal | 11:45 |
| kanzure | "everyone should join a forum and listen to bineural beats" | 11:45 |
| Escapist | thanks, yesterday, i asked some stupid question to kanzure , sorry for that | 11:45 |
| kanzure | uh? | 11:45 |
| kanzure | what was your stupid question | 11:45 |
| andytoshi | Escapist: i agree this convo is skirting the bounds of 'what is signal', so i'll just answer your q and leave it be. the benefit is that it makes you calmer and lets your brain devote its (very finite) computational resources to whatever you're thinking about deeply, rather than whatever is distracting your conscious mind | 11:47 |
| andytoshi | but seriously, just try it and if it helps you stick with it, if you try to discuss it (esp. online) you will get a bunch of kum bah ahs and nothing useful | 11:48 |
| fenn | meditation has been shown to lower cortisol, which reduces inflammation and keeps the whole brain active instead of fight/flight response | 11:48 |
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| kanzure | fenn: can you clarify your dislike of bitcoin | 11:49 |
| fenn | it's a waste of electricity | 11:50 |
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| kanzure | because money is bad? | 11:50 |
| fenn | because the electricity isn't used for anything useful | 11:50 |
| kanzure | because money is useless? | 11:50 |
| escapist_ | Was this a kick or a diconect, if it was a kick bye everyone | 11:50 |
| fenn | it has nothing to do with money | 11:50 |
| fenn | escapist_: you just timed out | 11:50 |
| kanzure | escapist_: your client is shit | 11:50 |
| fenn | bad internet connection i guess | 11:50 |
| kanzure | fenn: if it has nothing to do with money, what do you think it is then? | 11:51 |
| escapist_ | ok, i agree i have bad connection 16.000 with 300 + poeple | 11:51 |
| fenn | i'm not building a jupiter brain just so we can all sit around and compute hashes | 11:54 |
| kanzure | nobody.. said.. you were? | 11:54 |
| fenn | http://demo1.faikvm.com/trac/wiki/Incentivization this is alright explanation, even though it focuses a bit too much on free software | 11:55 |
| kanzure | that's just the person that was furious that everybody didn't pledge their first born to gnu | 11:55 |
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| fenn | ok well, s/Free Software/software/ | 11:56 |
| kanzure | are you also angry that my cells are purpose-specific? | 11:56 |
| andytoshi | fenn: https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf counters that. and besides, the point of the hashing is to translate computational resources into security | 11:56 |
| fenn | but they're not, that's what's cool about biology | 11:56 |
| dingo | the point of the hashing is to ensure "making" money has a cost | 11:56 |
| dingo | which is kindof the problem with USD.. there is no cost in "making" it, thats part of the chaos | 11:56 |
| kanzure | he's just angry that it's not all free open source hardware | 11:57 |
| fenn | i read the essay by nick szabo on primitive money making tribes (they made wampum from oysters, or beads, or collected shells, or whatever) | 11:57 |
| fenn | what they were doing was useless in a productive sense | 11:57 |
| fenn | but it made money that other tribes could use | 11:57 |
| fenn | bitcoin is like this, but with nuclear reactors | 11:58 |
| kanzure | how do you make a record that is difficult to tamper with? | 11:58 |
| dingo | i think you underestimate the cost of running a nuclear reactor | 11:58 |
| andytoshi | "it was not productive, except for the thing it was intended for, which it did" | 11:58 |
| fenn | it's some fraction of the overall economy, which is just nuts for a control system | 11:59 |
| fenn | it's like you need a bigger driver to drive a bigger semi truck | 11:59 |
| kanzure | specifically what fraction | 11:59 |
| fenn | szabo estimated it at 3%? i forget | 12:00 |
| kanzure | are you also against kernel overhead | 12:00 |
| fenn | i guess i am just against money. there, fire away | 12:01 |
| kanzure | at least you're honest | 12:02 |
| fenn | bitcoin is still better than fucking bank of america | 12:02 |
| dingo | you can send me your money if it helps | 12:02 |
| kanzure | mplayer http://pub5.di.fm/di_progressive_aac?type=.flv | 12:03 |
| kanzure | oops | 12:03 |
| kanzure | fenn: so, i was thinking that i might be able to get interest from the bitcoin asic miners in doing simpler semiconductor manufacturing | 12:06 |
| kanzure | without the billion dollar fabs | 12:06 |
| kanzure | and a side effect may be people investigating simpler methods of semiconductor photolithography stuff | 12:06 |
| fenn | i was trying to explain how bitcoin works today and realized i still don't really know all the details | 12:06 |
| kanzure | the source code isn't too terrible https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin | 12:07 |
| kanzure | and if a bunch of money is dumped into making photolithography semiconductor stuff cheaper, then it is cheaper for other non-bitcoin projects too | 12:08 |
| fenn | yes that would be a good side effect | 12:08 |
| fenn | i'm not holding my breath tho | 12:08 |
| kanzure | unfortunately it had the opposite effect in the gpu market | 12:08 |
| kanzure | all the good gpus got eaten up and prices spiked | 12:08 |
| fenn | nah that's different, just supply demand and unpredictability of markets. technology development is different | 12:09 |
| kanzure | i've been trying to estimate how many chips you would have to build to make up for the fact that you're not doing 90nm transistors | 12:10 |
| kanzure | apparently the current bitcoin asics are 28nm | 12:10 |
| fenn | well for one thing your energy cost in J/GH is going up | 12:11 |
| kanzure | if it turns out that no amount of production will let you "catch up", or that the amount of production would cost unfathomably large amounts of money (hundreds of billions?), then there's maybe no point | 12:11 |
| fenn | bigger transistor means more switching charge (bigger capacitance = more charge) | 12:11 |
| fenn | more charge = more current = more power | 12:11 |
| kanzure | i also wonder if there's diminishing returns of large-area transistors vs just buying random microprocessors/microcontrollers off the shelf (if they would provide better computing than whatever you could make) | 12:12 |
| kanzure | what's the hash rate of a sha256-specific chip anyway. hrm. | 12:12 |
| kanzure | https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_hardware_comparison | 12:13 |
| fenn | 2GH/s according to ebay | 12:13 |
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| kanzure | according to this table, it's more like 10-100 GH/s | 12:14 |
| kanzure | "Black Arrow Prospero X-3" is 1 TH/s hrm | 12:14 |
| kanzure | is looking at the fpga implementations on github an okay approximation | 12:15 |
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| kanzure | they are probably straight fpga -> silicon dumps, right? | 12:15 |
| fenn | how the hell should i know | 12:15 |
| kanzure | should you? | 12:16 |
| fenn | so they have broken 2TH/s already | 12:17 |
| fenn | i wonder how many chips that is | 12:17 |
| fenn | looks like 4 chips so more like 500GH/s | 12:17 |
| kanzure | that's disappointing | 12:18 |
| fenn | it's completely arbitrary | 12:18 |
| fenn | more hashes is more hashes, so, fuck off | 12:18 |
| ParahSailin | well it LTV is correct, then hashing is a lot of labor, hence lots of value | 12:19 |
| fenn | it's a zero sum game | 12:20 |
| fenn | except for the value of the network of course | 12:20 |
| fenn | network value is independent of number of hashes being performed | 12:20 |
| kanzure | do you know what the hashes are for? | 12:21 |
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| fenn | "Any block that is created by a malicious user that does not follow this rule (or any other rules) will be rejected by everyone else." | 12:27 |
| fenn | "Each block memorializes what took place immediately before it was created." | 12:29 |
| fenn | New blocks can't be submitted to the network without the correct answer - the process of "Mining" is essentially the process of competing to be the next to find the answer that "solves" the current block. | 12:29 |
| fenn | each hash is a "guess" at the answer | 12:30 |
| andytoshi | fenn: you are totally missing the forest for the trees | 12:30 |
| andytoshi | like if you said aerobic respiration was a process for binding carbon to oxygen | 12:31 |
| fenn | he said "do you know what the hashes are for" and i answered, what do you want | 12:31 |
| andytoshi | and when asked what it's for, you started talking about valence electrons and how respiration gets you the right reconfiguration | 12:31 |
| andytoshi | fenn: the hashes give a way to translate computational resources into something cryptographically verifiable | 12:32 |
| andytoshi | that's what "proof of work" refers to | 12:32 |
| fenn | it has nothing to do with computational resources | 12:32 |
| andytoshi | it lets you /define/ the system mathematically so that it is hard to rewrite history | 12:32 |
| andytoshi | fenn: the correct answer to kanzure's question was "no" | 12:33 |
| fenn | it's just the ability to do this particular cryptographic algorithm, which happens to be implemented on something resembling a computer | 12:33 |
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| fenn | you can take all the bitcoin asics in the world and the won't be able to add 2+2 | 12:35 |
| chris_99 | heh | 12:35 |
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| andytoshi | yeah, and you can take all the aerobic biomass in the world and they won't be able to either | 12:36 |
| andytoshi | and yet here we are huffing and puffing as we type frantically | 12:36 |
| fenn | the difference is you say one is "computational resources" and the other isn't? | 12:36 |
| andytoshi | ?? the difference is that respiration is used to provide useful energy to the organism while bitcoin hashing is used to translate a fact of physics to a fact of mathematics | 12:38 |
| andytoshi | they are more alike than they are different at the level we are talking | 12:38 |
| andytoshi | in both cases they are a mechanism for taking resources from the environment and translating them into a form that the system can use | 12:38 |
| fenn | but cells are more general purpose than bitcoin asics | 12:38 |
| fenn | even "specialized" cells can do a large number of things | 12:39 |
| andytoshi | i'd like a citation that DNA is more expressive than bitcoin script.. | 12:39 |
| fenn | what is bitcoin script? | 12:39 |
| andytoshi | lol | 12:39 |
| andytoshi | alright, i've gotta get going | 12:39 |
| fenn | was bitcoin script in the original spec? | 12:42 |
| andytoshi | yes. section 3 of https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf talks about what it's for, https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script is a more nuts-and-bolts explanation | 12:43 |
| andytoshi | https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts gives some simple examples of why it's more expressive than you'd expect at first glance | 12:43 |
| andytoshi | but i've got a jam to go to, ttyl | 12:44 |
| fenn | bye | 12:44 |
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| FourFire | wait does someone want to try to create a biological bitcoin ASIC? | 13:07 |
| FourFire | that seems silly... and suboptimal... | 13:07 |
| FourFire | like using nuclear decay to cook popcorn | 13:07 |
| FourFire | (that isn't even a bad enough example) | 13:07 |
| fenn | aside from being used to compute near-meaningless hashes, what's wrong with a biological ASIC? | 13:17 |
| kanzure | are you angry that entropy exists | 13:17 |
| fenn | or biological IC in general | 13:17 |
| fenn | kanzure: yes actually | 13:17 |
| kanzure | are you angry energy exists? | 13:18 |
| fenn | um, no | 13:18 |
| fenn | what does it mean when the sound turns off in one of your ears (i don't have a hearing aid or anything) | 13:19 |
| kanzure | it means "you should stand up" | 13:20 |
| fenn | is it some kind of transient ischemia? is that what you mean? | 13:20 |
| kanzure | do you also dislike hashcash? | 13:22 |
| fenn | i forget what that is | 13:22 |
| fenn | some email spam prevention thing | 13:22 |
| kanzure | .wik hashcash | 13:23 |
| yoleaux | "Hashcash is a proof-of-work system designed to limit email spam and denial-of-service attacks. Hashcash was proposed in May 1997 by Adam Back." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashcash | 13:23 |
| fenn | at a first pass it looks like there's no incentive to make huge numbers of hashcash computing nodes? | 13:23 |
| fenn | because spam isn't that valuable | 13:24 |
| fenn | there are presumably more people who dislike getting spam than people who like sending spam | 13:24 |
| fenn | there's no spam race between spammers because of the overwhelming majority of spam-avoiders | 13:25 |
| fenn | but "everybody likes money" or at least a large enough majority that the rest of us get dragged along | 13:25 |
| fenn | i don't have anything against hashcash in principle, but it would be terrible if a majority of the internet were devoted to preventing spam | 13:26 |
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| fenn | i used the wrong asymmetry. spammers want to send more emails than regular users, is the important part | 13:33 |
| fenn | i dont think hashcash would stop the chinese factory salesmen from emailing me | 13:38 |
| fenn | huh. spamassassin already uses hashcash | 13:42 |
| fenn | .ety assassin | 13:43 |
| yoleaux | assassin (n.): "1530s (in Anglo-Latin from mid-13c.), via French and Italian, from Arabic hashishiyyin "hashish-users," plural of hashishiyy, from hashish (q.v.)." — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=assassin | 13:43 |
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| kanzure | https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Generation_Calculator | 14:18 |
| kanzure | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:United_Kingdom_nuke_plant_map | 14:19 |
| kanzure | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trawsfynydd_nuclear_power_station | 14:23 |
| kanzure | well that's a mouthful | 14:23 |
| fenn | why are you looking at UK nuclear plants? | 14:24 |
| kanzure | swhack reasons | 14:24 |
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| jrayhawk | still less gibberishy than cornish | 14:25 |
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| kanzure | cornwho? | 14:26 |
| fenn | TP for my Bunghole | 14:27 |
| jrayhawk | hah | 14:27 |
| jrayhawk | actually i guess that probably is an artifact of cornish heritage | 14:27 |
| jrayhawk | beh | 14:27 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.cornish-language.org/?lang=ker | 14:29 |
| fenn | so a 4TH/s miner costs about $10k and on average will generate a block every 3 months (?) which is about $10k at the going rate? | 14:31 |
| fenn | plus cost of electricity | 14:31 |
| fenn | oh look at all these profitability calculators | 14:32 |
| fenn | wow the profit goes negative in about a year | 14:33 |
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| fenn | can you buy grid electricity with bitcoin yet? | 14:44 |
| fenn | com/r/Bitcoin/comments/24uhk9/now_you_can_pay_electricity_using_bitcoin_in/ sorry for reddit, couldn't find this anywhere else | 14:49 |
| fenn | http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/24uhk9/now_you_can_pay_electricity_using_bitcoin_in/ | 14:49 |
| kanzure | profitability is usually pretty low, or negative | 14:51 |
| kanzure | so, people join pools because of that multiple months thing | 14:51 |
| kanzure | plus, the total network hashrate is increasing anyway, so those 3 months end up being "forever" | 14:51 |
| fenn | so you are likely to not get any money back if you don't join a pool? | 14:52 |
| kanzure | at 4 TH/s, correct, yeah | 14:53 |
| fenn | why would anyone mine if profit is negative on state of the art hardware? | 14:53 |
| kanzure | i believe mining has always been unprofitable in the short-term | 14:53 |
| fenn | is 3 months short term? | 14:54 |
| kanzure | if you want to buy a lot of bitcoins, you can't just buy them because nobody sells that much on the market | 14:54 |
| fenn | huh why not | 14:54 |
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| kanzure | however, buying has always had a greater return than mining | 14:54 |
| kanzure | oh, just depth of market reasons, not everyone is selling on the exchanges etc | 14:54 |
| fenn | doesnt that just drive the price up? | 14:55 |
| kanzure | and certainly not all of the density is at the exact price point yu're willing to pay | 14:55 |
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| kanzure | sure it drives the price up | 14:55 |
| kanzure | i saw an article yesterday that calculated that the profit margin of mining operations is like -319% | 14:56 |
| fenn | i dont believe that | 14:56 |
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| kanzure | .title https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=370858.0 | 14:57 |
| yoleaux | Profit Margin for Miners is negative 627%???? | 14:57 |
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| fenn | how the fuck would blockchain.info know your electricity cost | 14:58 |
| kanzure | fair point; in general, don't trust any of the graphs on blockchain.info | 14:58 |
| ThomasEgi | the value you gain from mining bitcoins is roughly the same as the value of your electricity bill, given somewhat average electricity prices | 14:59 |
| fenn | given that electricity prices can vary by almost an order of magnitude, that's a lot of room for arbitrage | 15:00 |
| ThomasEgi | at least.. it was like that last time i made the comparison between bitcoin value and traditionally produced electricity | 15:00 |
| kanzure | also, some countries do an estimate on how much power you're going to use and charge you for that, rather than metering you and billing you every month | 15:00 |
| kanzure | i think i have the scheme wrong | 15:00 |
| ThomasEgi | that caculation was done for me, as an individual person living in germany | 15:00 |
| fenn | often they'll estimate, charge you, and then refund/bill the difference the next month | 15:01 |
| ThomasEgi | my guess is that the results for other countries with somewhat sane billing plans would end up close to it. | 15:01 |
| fenn | you can sign up for a average monthly bill per year program | 15:01 |
| fenn | i think it's a great way to hide the cost of air conditioning from people | 15:02 |
| ThomasEgi | the interesting point that came up is that the value equaled the energy value used to mine it. | 15:02 |
| ThomasEgi | so the only real way to "earn" money was to use renewable energy. like wind/solar to power your rig. | 15:03 |
| ThomasEgi | and the only difference between mining bitcoins and selling the energy directly is that finding people who want your bitcoins is easier than people who want your home-made electricity | 15:03 |
| kanzure | uhuh.. the only difference you say. | 15:04 |
| ThomasEgi | again. from my perspective | 15:04 |
| kanzure | there's not any other possible difference | 15:04 |
| kanzure | whatsoever | 15:04 |
| ThomasEgi | that's just my conclusion i had when i investigated my benefits of mining bitcoins. that's not a scientific statement | 15:06 |
| fenn | "Electricity consumption is estimated based on power consumption of 650 Watts per gigahash" ok that's not even the correct units, and now a state of the art rig is 0.165 J/GH (?) for minerscube something something | 15:06 |
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| fenn | heh "15BTC gets you 15TH/s!" | 15:08 |
| fenn | just consider a bitcoin miner as a very inefficient power transformer that wears out quickly | 15:10 |
| kanzure | the output is power? | 15:10 |
| fenn | yeah something like 1e-50 J in a specific format | 15:11 |
| fenn | ok nevermind | 15:11 |
| kanzure | why is that specifically 1e-50? doesn't it change | 15:11 |
| kanzure | ok | 15:11 |
| fenn | it takes energy to encode bits | 15:11 |
| * fenn mumbles something about solar power satellites | 15:13 | |
| fenn | given all the focus on electricity cost i'm surprised there isn't research on highly efficient power transformers and something better than a USB hub or wall wart for power distribution | 15:18 |
| fenn | "Of course, the way BTC works is that the more people drop out, the easier it gets to mine again. So if everyone jumped ship, it could become profitable overnight. | 15:20 |
| kanzure | most of the people who focus on electricity cost don't seem to be interested in contributing changes | 15:20 |
| fenn | this zero sum game stuff is terrible | 15:20 |
| kanzure | it's zero sum because my bitcoins are worthless? | 15:24 |
| fenn | no, it's zero sum because if i publish a circuit that improves the electricity efficiency of all bitcoin miners, the total energy wasted is the same | 15:24 |
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| fenn | i'm probably using the wrong game theory words | 15:25 |
| fenn | i wish i could find that paper by szabo that estimates where it all tops out | 15:26 |
| kanzure | it's the same because they don't implement your circuit? | 15:26 |
| fenn | the wastage is the same because mining bitcoins "becomes profitable again" and people jump on the network and burn more asic cycles | 15:27 |
| fenn | this increases the energy cost per bitcoin back to where it was before | 15:28 |
| kanzure | so where is the zero? | 15:28 |
| fenn | if someone invents fusion power, the electricity cost is the same, it's just running on fusion now | 15:28 |
| fenn | the zero is because nobody benefits, there's zero net gain | 15:28 |
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| fenn | er, i said that wrong | 15:29 |
| fenn | .wik zero sum game | 15:29 |
| * fenn pokes yoleaux | 15:29 | |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, that command (.wik) took too long to process. | 15:29 |
| fenn | "In game theory and economic theory, a zero-sum game is a mathematical representation of a situation in which a participant's gain or loss is exactly balanced by the losses or gains of the other participant." | 15:30 |
| fenn | so whoever has the most efficient power supply and processor (mostly) wins, and everyone else (mostly) loses | 15:31 |
| kanzure | and people who aren't mining also lose? | 15:34 |
| fenn | no, because they haven't invested anything | 15:34 |
| fenn | the queue advancement tip payment adds a little to the whole system | 15:35 |
| fenn | i don't know how that works in practice | 15:35 |
| kanzure | you should also look at proof of stake | 15:35 |
| fenn | there's only so much crypto-* i can take in a day | 15:35 |
| fenn | why should i look at proof of stake | 15:37 |
| kanzure | you might hate it less | 15:37 |
| kanzure | and it's the algorithm that backs that gnuhater link | 15:38 |
| fenn | lol "but who should the coins be distributed to? f it is to random IPs, then Bitcoin would have triggered a massive growth in botnets and the impact of people chasing after IP addresses might well have pushed the world onto IPv6 half a year ago." | 15:39 |
| kanzure | i don't think ip would be a good idea | 15:40 |
| fenn | the majority of IPs are owned by the US government anyway | 15:40 |
| kanzure | would that be bad | 15:41 |
| kanzure | can't decide | 15:41 |
| fenn | um, it would reduce their incentive to destroy IPcoin | 15:41 |
| fenn | i think | 15:41 |
| fenn | it's a bad idea because IP is easily spoofed and it would require every computer to be running some special software regardless what it was for | 15:43 |
| fenn | IPv4 is already scarce enough | 15:43 |
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| fenn | data point: minercube is about 3000 times more energy efficient at hashing than a GPU | 15:47 |
| fenn | eventually the block reward will peter out and the network will be run entirely by transaction fees, which depend on impatient people to work. so the amount of electricity wasted depends directly on the total impatience of bitcoin spenders | 15:51 |
| fenn | i don't actually care about electricity but it's a problem when we're burning oil to make it | 15:52 |
| fenn | gosh this has so many feedback loops i really dont know where it ends up | 15:54 |
| fenn | now that scrypt asics exist, why are gpus not selling for dirt cheap? | 16:09 |
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| ParahSailin | i wonder how many btc mining outfits are in iceland | 16:17 |
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| kanzure | fenn: i don't think scrypt asics are widely available? | 16:36 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: at leas tone | 16:36 |
| fenn | i am seeing some "gridseed" stuff on ebay | 16:37 |
| fenn | says 360KHash/s on scrypt | 16:38 |
| kanzure | don't gpus do better than that? | 16:38 |
| fenn | i dont know | 16:38 |
| kanzure | scrpyt miner comparison chart thing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlhSF602y9DSdHRneWVZcjJLWmhjaVBMTHVCR3l4eHc&usp=sharing#gid=0 | 16:39 |
| fenn | ugh | 16:39 |
| fenn | the other thing is energy efficiency | 16:40 |
| fenn | gridseed is 7W in scrypt-only mode | 16:41 |
| kanzure | some of these do >400 KH/s | 16:41 |
| fenn | yeah i just read something claiming 10MH/s on a FPGA | 16:41 |
| fenn | do i have to sign in to google docs just to sort by x? | 16:42 |
| kanzure | no idea. i'm surprised you went there. | 16:42 |
| fenn | i guess GPU still competes on price per hash per second | 16:46 |
| fenn | so maybe if electricity is really cheap it makes sense to get a gpu? | 16:47 |
| kanzure | intel 4004 had 10 micron features and a clock of 740 kHz hehe | 16:47 |
| fenn | 8051 equivalent is still in common use | 16:48 |
| kanzure | 10 microns is pretty large | 16:48 |
| fenn | that's visible to the unaided eye | 16:48 |
| kanzure | /query azonenberg images of uncapped 4004 pls? kthx | 16:49 |
| kanzure | http://www.lighterra.com/articles/historyofcomputers/intel4004chip.jpg | 16:49 |
| kanzure | he delivers! | 16:49 |
| fenn | http://www.cpu-zone.com/4004.htm | 16:51 |
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| fenn | various other processors on that site | 16:51 |
| fenn | i love how the datasheet pinout looks exactly the same as modern datasheets | 16:52 |
| kanzure | that feature size does not seem unreasonable for homebrew non-billion-dollar fabs | 16:52 |
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| fenn | you could do a straight copy of the 8051, there's masks on ... where did visual8051.org go | 16:56 |
| kanzure | http://www.amazon.com/Logical-Effort-Designing-Circuits-Architecture/dp/1558605576/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1399852479&sr=8-1&keywords=logical+effort | 16:57 |
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| kanzure | "As a Tor exit node operator (AlexanderShulgin), I'll add a bitcoin full node to my server as well ;) [On an unrelated note, I'm also the employer of the raided4tor guy]" | 18:13 |
| kanzure | so.. is this shulgin or not? i think not, but then what's with the random raided4tor connection | 18:14 |
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| kanzure | toot | 19:11 |
| cluckj | my fractal tv antenna is not cutting it now that it's not in the attic :< | 19:19 |
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| fenn | cluckj: try a strange loop antenna | 19:43 |
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| kanzure | hrmm https://github.com/OpenAssets/open-assets-protocol/blob/master/specification.mediawiki | 19:52 |
| kanzure | the problem with bitcoin is that it's a never-ending stream of shitty proposals intermixed with possibly-okay proposals, but then mixed with emotional reactions to money that means nobody provides an analysis for you | 19:53 |
| fenn | is this different from counterparty | 19:54 |
| kanzure | hm "It is possible to determine the asset address and quantity of an output by traversing only a limited number of transactions." | 19:55 |
| kanzure | yes (esp. because that quote) | 19:55 |
| kanzure | "Generating a new type of asset is as simple as generating an address, can be done offline, and for free." that's a curious property | 19:55 |
| fenn | the "asset" is just a reference to a physical object or deed or whatever | 19:56 |
| fenn | there may be some confusing of the finger with the moon | 19:57 |
| kanzure | because my finger is inflammed? | 19:58 |
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| fenn | it's not worth explaining the metaphor. "the map is not the territory" | 19:59 |
| kanzure | i agree, same with mastercoin/counterparty though | 20:00 |
| kanzure | for electronic-assets, it seems to work okay | 20:00 |
| kanzure | but otherwise it sounds as bad an idea as "GLD" | 20:00 |
| kanzure | (buying a stock called GLD and hoping their vault really has it) | 20:01 |
| kanzure | "GLD has grown to become the second-largest exchange-traded fund by assets, valued at $72.4 billion and backed by 40.8 million ounces of physical gold. The subject of much fascination, GLD has also been targeted by skeptics who question the ETF’s secretive methods and even doubt it holds all the gold in HSBC’s vault in London." | 20:01 |
| fenn | hoping it stays pegged to gold prices even if the shit hits the fan | 20:01 |
| fenn | did you know it's illegal to own "gold" | 20:01 |
| fenn | you can own things made of gold but not the raw material | 20:01 |
| kanzure | i saw something about a law in the 70s or something | 20:01 |
| kanzure | not completely sure | 20:01 |
| fenn | "up for auction is a golden wikipedia" | 20:02 |
| fenn | start the bidding at one dogecoin | 20:02 |
| kanzure | i bed -10 dogecoin | 20:03 |
| kanzure | bid, damn it | 20:03 |
| fenn | such a weird idea that currencies can "compete" | 20:03 |
| fenn | who came up with that | 20:03 |
| kanzure | currencies is one of those red herring words | 20:03 |
| kanzure | "it's not a currency because it's not in my wallet" | 20:03 |
| kanzure | "it's a currency because regardless of your trust in it, the transactions are still working" | 20:03 |
| fenn | "what is 'is' anyway" to quote bill clinton | 20:04 |
| kanzure | great, now i owe him trademark fees | 20:05 |
| fenn | you can cite alfred korzybski for prior art | 20:05 |
| fenn | Korzybski thought that people do not have access to direct knowledge of reality; rather they have access to perceptions and to a set of beliefs which human society has confused with direct knowledge of reality. Korzybski is remembered as the author of the dictum: "The map is not the territory". | 20:05 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Korzybski#.22To_be.22 | 20:09 |
| kanzure | "Regular shareholders have no rights of redemption and the gold is not required to be insured by the Trust, which is not liable for loss, damage, theft, nor fraud." | 20:15 |
| kanzure | well what's the point | 20:15 |
| fenn | to "diversify" your "portfolio" "duh" | 20:15 |
| kanzure | i see.... | 20:15 |
| fenn | charles swab recommends investing heavily in q-tips | 20:16 |
| fenn | "people will always need q-tips" he said | 20:16 |
| kanzure | i can't use them anymore for legal reasons | 20:16 |
| fenn | conflict of interest? | 20:16 |
| kanzure | settlement | 20:16 |
| kanzure | settlement terms | 20:16 |
| fenn | they are too pleasurable to be allowed in a moral, honest, god-fearing America? | 20:17 |
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| kanzure | nah they gone done fucked up on their own | 20:17 |
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| fenn | "the threat to our children is too great!" moms-against-q-tips spokesmom declared | 20:19 |
| fenn | she cited several incidents of traumatic brain injury caused by improper q-tip use | 20:20 |
| fenn | and think about the environmental damage caused | 20:21 |
| fenn | q-tips have been banned in saudi arabia when it was discovered that they can be used to stimulate cats in heat | 20:22 |
| kanzure | that's only in your head | 20:23 |
| fenn | yes, the brain damage, now we're communicating | 20:23 |
| kanzure | i'm very confused, was i supposed to be working on something right now? | 20:24 |
| fenn | you were finishing python-brlcad | 20:25 |
| kanzure | does anyone use that | 20:26 |
| fenn | does it do anything? | 20:26 |
| kanzure | it makes shapes and csg and stuff | 20:26 |
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| fenn | is this just an alternative to the tcl shell in brlcad? | 20:27 |
| kanzure | they are ctypes bindings into each of the core brlcad libraries | 20:28 |
| kanzure | all 470 of them | 20:28 |
| kanzure | or.. something. | 20:28 |
| fenn | so, if i union a RPP and a ARB and intersect a BOT, what do i do with the output? | 20:28 |
| kanzure | save it to a file, view it with one of the brlcad viewer tools | 20:29 |
| cluckj | fenn, that's a little large for the frequencies I want | 20:29 |
| kanzure | python loop for showing the object in real-time does not exist yet | 20:29 |
| fenn | cluckj: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_loop | 20:29 |
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| cluckj | okay | 20:30 |
| fenn | "not a cake, an onion" ? | 20:30 |
| fenn | i guess cakes have layers | 20:31 |
| fenn | kanzure: you should make screenshots of rendering the example files at least | 20:33 |
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| kanzure | it doesn't render | 20:34 |
| kanzure | oh, those are the normal eamples | 20:34 |
| kanzure | *examples | 20:34 |
| fenn | but it makes geometry that can be rendered | 20:34 |
| kanzure | i've loaded them in mged, but i haven't been able to figure out a reliable way to render to png with brlcad | 20:34 |
| kanzure | i just get lots of static (even when not using python-brlcad) | 20:35 |
| fenn | a 3d hilbert curve is the normal brlcad example? | 20:35 |
| kanzure | the normal example is a sphere inside of a cube | 20:35 |
| fenn | can you just screenshot the window | 20:35 |
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| kanzure | ugh someone needs to setup travis-ci with python-brlcad | 20:37 |
| kanzure | i don't have numpy installed? wtf | 20:37 |
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| fenn | it would be nice to have a format/api that could be used with both pyscad and brlcad | 20:38 |
| fenn | or scadpy or whatever the fuck | 20:39 |
| kanzure | what is pyscad? | 20:39 |
| kanzure | scatpy? | 20:39 |
| fenn | openscad but python | 20:39 |
| fenn | one was a binding, the other was a partial reimplementation | 20:39 |
| kanzure | did i do that? that sounds like something i would do (the partial reimplementation) | 20:40 |
| fenn | i don't think you made it | 20:40 |
| kanzure | excellent | 20:40 |
| kanzure | numpy takes quite a while to compile | 20:40 |
| fenn | why are you compiling numpy? | 20:41 |
| kanzure | AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'RT_HRT_INTERNAL_MAGIC' | 20:41 |
| kanzure | because it's a dependency of wdb_example.py apparently | 20:41 |
| fenn | and the .deb versions are too new? | 20:41 |
| kanzure | i was grabbing numpy from pypi.python.org | 20:42 |
| kanzure | i don't see anything newer than brlcad_7.24.0-0_amd64.deb | 20:42 |
| kanzure | where is RT_HRT_INTERNAL_MAGIC supposed to be coming from? | 20:42 |
| fenn | i mean python-numpy.deb | 20:42 |
| kanzure | include/magic.h:#define RT_HRT_INTERNAL_MAGIC0x6872743f /**< hrt? */ | 20:43 |
| kanzure | "magic.h" i can already tell this is not going to be a fun night | 20:43 |
| fenn | hrt stands for "butt hurt" | 20:44 |
| kanzure | if compare_version("7.24.1") >= 0: MAGIC_TO_PRIMITIVE_TYPE[librt.ID_HRT] = ("HRT", Primitive, librt.RT_HRT_INTERNAL_MAGIC, librt.struct_rt_hrt_internal) | 20:45 |
| kanzure | i forgot that this guy can't write python | 20:45 |
| kanzure | brlcad.util.BRLCAD_VERSION says "7.24" | 20:46 |
| fenn | hrt stands for "heart" a geometric primitive? (why would you need that?) | 20:46 |
| kanzure | librt does the geometric primitives | 20:47 |
| fenn | is this some hippie "put flowers in the tank cannon barrel" thing? | 20:47 |
| kanzure | apparently heart is a geometric primitive (Fjdkf;ldakdfjqoiijeq) | 20:47 |
| kanzure | "brlcad the good parts" | 20:47 |
| fenn | .title http://youtube.com/watch?v=L5pP3Vo5A6E | 20:48 |
| kanzure | bot's not here | 20:48 |
| fenn | "BRL-CAD LOVES YOU" | 20:49 |
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| kanzure | that heart is mocking me | 20:49 |
| kanzure | it's not even a valid heart anyway | 20:49 |
| kanzure | that ain't gonna pump anything | 20:50 |
| fenn | of all the things they could have done: http://brlcad.org/~sean/ideas.html | 20:50 |
| kanzure | military priority document | 20:51 |
| kanzure | ha "Implement a fast routine to evaluate BREP/NURBS used with CSG operations in real-time (consider integrating BOOLE or ESOLID)" | 20:51 |
| kanzure | ha because see http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/boole | 20:51 |
| fenn | right | 20:52 |
| kanzure | and because http://diyhpl.us/cgit/lolcad/tree/esolid | 20:52 |
| kanzure | why am i doing the military's dirty work? | 20:52 |
| fenn | did you actually write all that code? | 20:53 |
| kanzure | yes :\ | 20:54 |
| kanzure | but then i realized i wasn't testing it, and i couldn't think of a sane way to test it, so i stopped | 20:54 |
| fenn | you could do pixel comparison of a standard scene | 20:54 |
| kanzure | it wasn't to the point where it was working | 20:55 |
| kanzure | i'd say it's 10% done | 20:55 |
| kanzure | and i wanted to start testing things before i got to the parts that used the existing parts | 20:55 |
| fenn | huh. why is geometry so hard | 20:55 |
| kanzure | frankly i'm surprised the actual esolid source code didn't have tests.. how did that kid do it? | 20:55 |
| kanzure | this much geometry code without tests is serious lsd territory | 20:56 |
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| fenn | .botsnack | 20:56 |
| yoleaux | :D | 20:56 |
| kanzure | also, i would probably start with ctypes-based bindings of esolid if i was to do something close to that again | 20:57 |
| fenn | you have to train them to come back when called | 20:57 |
| kanzure | i don't completely trust brlcad's implementation of nurbs intersection yet | 20:57 |
| fenn | geometry engine seems like a job for haskell | 20:58 |
| kanzure | i asked a haskell person to quote me an estimate and he said $20k.. i should just go pay him. | 20:59 |
| fenn | to do what | 21:00 |
| kanzure | haskell implementation of nurbs intersection | 21:00 |
| fenn | this is just hilarious http://open3dp.me.washington.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Ism11.jpg | 21:05 |
| kanzure | why is everything esoteric? | 21:05 |
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| kanzure | $ python wdb_example.py output.g | 21:11 |
| kanzure | *** Error in `python': free(): invalid pointer: 0x0000000002951780 *** | 21:11 |
| kanzure | ugh i think this means i need to review his code more closely in the future | 21:12 |
| fenn | can you tell which shape it's failing on? | 21:13 |
| kanzure | huh, print "debug9" at the end still goes through | 21:14 |
| nmz787 | is there anyway to piggyback something like this on IRC http://peerjs.com/ | 21:15 |
| nmz787 | for paper purposes? | 21:15 |
| nmz787 | huh https://peercdn.com/ | 21:16 |
| kanzure | why not just use websockets | 21:16 |
| fenn | perhaps you are thinking of CTCP | 21:16 |
| kanzure | webrtc seems to be inappropriate | 21:16 |
| fenn | er, DCC SEND | 21:17 |
| kanzure | 21:17 | |
| kanzure | fenn: http://heybryan.org/shots/2014-05-11-231517-python-brlcad-wdb-example.png | 21:18 |
| fenn | cool, shapes! | 21:18 |
| fenn | now you just need hidden line rendering, opengl, some cool selection effect like blender's... | 21:19 |
| kanzure | i don't want to use mged | 21:19 |
| kanzure | fuck mged | 21:19 |
| fenn | is the cylinder angled wrt the face of the cube? | 21:20 |
| fenn | or is it a non-right cylinder? | 21:20 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/python-brlcad/blob/master/examples/wdb_example.py | 21:20 |
| fenn | there don't seem to be enough shapes | 21:21 |
| kanzure | sphere, rpp, hole | 21:21 |
| fenn | i see sphere, rpp, arb4 | 21:22 |
| kanzure | what's an arb4 | 21:22 |
| kanzure | god damn military codes | 21:22 |
| fenn | a cube | 21:22 |
| kanzure | i need my secret decoder ring | 21:22 |
| kanzure | rpp is a cube apparently | 21:22 |
| fenn | but arbitrary! | 21:22 |
| kanzure | "Note that this really makes an arb8" IT HAS BEEN NOTED | 21:22 |
| fenn | oh. hm. what's a cylinder called | 21:23 |
| fenn | rcc? | 21:23 |
| fenn | rpc? | 21:23 |
| fenn | this is brl-cad's major failing | 21:23 |
| kanzure | well, write a simplifying layer | 21:24 |
| kanzure | it's not like i understand it either | 21:24 |
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| fenn | rcc - truncated general cone (right circular cylinder) | 21:25 |
| fenn | is this one of those infinite geometry things | 21:26 |
| kanzure | thanks, now i've forgotten my birthdate | 21:26 |
| fenn | they could have gotten away with {cuboid, ellipsoid, cone, bitmap, pipe, mesh} and some sensible defaults | 21:29 |
| fenn | oh and torus i guess | 21:30 |
| fenn | i'm not really sure how you're supposed to make a helix | 21:30 |
| fenn | maybe helix is a kind of pipe | 21:31 |
| fenn | what the hell http://brlcad.org/wiki/Spiral | 21:32 |
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| fenn | mine's better http://fennetic.net/irc/lengthspiral.py http://fennetic.net/irc/lengthspiral.png | 21:33 |
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| fenn | oh look it's the heart primitive http://fennetic.net/irc/magnets1.jpg | 21:34 |
| fenn | and the maid primitive http://fennetic.net/irc/maid.jpg | 21:35 |
| fenn | and the maze primitive: http://fennetic.net/irc/maze.png | 21:35 |
| kanzure | "This script was originally written by Bryan Bishop and is available for download from here." | 21:41 |
| kanzure | what | 21:41 |
| kanzure | how long have i been at this? | 21:41 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=5c5c8d21 Bryan Bishop: also grab brlcad.org wiki >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/wikis/ | 21:43 |
| fenn | it's really weird to look at old screenshots | 21:44 |
| kanzure | whyshat? | 21:46 |
| kanzure | whysthat? | 21:46 |
| fenn | some of them look almost identical to what i have now like this one from 2007 http://fennetic.net/irc/random-screenshot.jpg | 21:47 |
| fenn | for reference this is what i have now http://fennetic.net/irc/lumineq_electroluminescent_display_cross_section.png | 21:47 |
| kanzure | older one is better | 21:48 |
| fenn | but then apparently i switched to kde in 2008? http://fennetic.net/irc/phun.png | 21:48 |
| fenn | i think i had it correct in 2011 http://fennetic.net/irc/ml-class-ex1-divergence.png | 21:49 |
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| fenn | back before tabs were a thing http://fennetic.net/irc/mcmaster_clocks.png | 21:51 |
| fenn | omg he drew this in 2001 http://fennetic.net/irc/blame_and_so_on_108.jpg | 21:53 |
| kanzure | why is that surprising | 21:53 |
| fenn | now everything looks like that on cghub | 21:54 |
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| fenn | jesus christ what am i doing with my life http://fennetic.net/irc/screenshot-09-05-06.png | 22:00 |
| kanzure | wasn't this the free software story about buying a tank | 22:01 |
| fenn | neal stephenson "in the beginning there was the command line" | 22:02 |
| fenn | more importantly the image demonstrates the use of a CSS override | 22:04 |
| fenn | something i (thought i) just learned how to do, after much faffing about | 22:05 |
| AshleyWaffle | any transhumanist people with minecraft? PM me to find out about a project! | 22:09 |
| AshleyWaffle | er, msg, whatevs | 22:09 |
| kanzure | uh.. | 22:09 |
| fenn | there were some minecrafters in #swhack | 22:09 |
| kanzure | if everyone just used private conversations, nothing would get said | 22:10 |
| kanzure | fenn, feel free to do python-brlcad stuff instead of wallowing in your anciency | 22:16 |
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