| --- Log opened Thu May 22 00:00:12 2014 | ||
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| @_archels | http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140520-the-girls-who-never-age | 04:38 |
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| kanzure_ | you guys are boring | 05:53 |
| ebowden | Oh well. | 05:53 |
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| kanzure_ | "oh well" is a bad answer. how about be less boring? | 06:04 |
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| eudoxia | kanzure: http://www.digitalspace.com/papers/nanopap1.html | 06:06 |
| kanzure_ | .title | 06:06 |
| yoleaux | kanzure_: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed. | 06:06 |
| kanzure_ | .title | 06:07 |
| yoleaux | kanzure_: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed. | 06:07 |
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| kanzure_ | well at least it's consistently crashy | 06:07 |
| gradstudentbot | Well, that paper was actually retracted. | 06:07 |
| eudoxia | the entire body is in a <blockquote> and the <head> tag is empty | 06:08 |
| kanzure_ | "There is no facility to simulate nanomechanical drive trains | 06:08 |
| kanzure_ | or other power systems which must be present to drive structural | 06:08 |
| kanzure_ | objects such as sorting rotors or logic rods." | 06:08 |
| gradstudentbot | Hey, let's write a paper about that. | 06:09 |
| gradstudentbot | I think using the laser is making me sterile. | 06:10 |
| eudoxia | ugh what is it with people who have contact forms instead of an email address | 06:12 |
| kanzure_ | "i don't have an email address, but what i do have is a 200 by 100 pixel text entry box on a website that stopped working in 1997" | 06:13 |
| eudoxia | some of the links don't work because they have some php in them | 06:14 |
| pasky | so the other night I tried to write up why I started working on question answering... http://pasky.or.cz/dev/brmson/grand-plan.pdf | 06:19 |
| gradstudentbot | I could never be a PI. | 06:20 |
| kanzure_ | then why is wolfram alpha still not making much money? | 06:25 |
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| @_archels | and you're going to beat WA, Watson, Siri, DDG, because... | 06:29 |
| @_archels | I wonder what the ratio of man-hours to performance/user satisfaction is on those projects | 06:30 |
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| kanzure_ | don't be so quick to dismiss brain emulation, nobody has really done much in that department at all | 06:32 |
| kanzure_ | (don't fall for perceptron stuff) | 06:32 |
| pasky | wolfram alpha is focusing on structured data and the computational aspects, i think unstructured data are the true treasure trove | 06:35 |
| @_archels | at a lecture yesterday someone dismissingly commented that the best thing all this neuromorphic engineering has given us is identifying cats in youtube videos | 06:37 |
| @_archels | he's probably never tried to build a cat identifier himself | 06:38 |
| kanzure_ | unfortunately people consider "artificial neural networks on an asics and fpgas" to be "neuromorphic" | 06:38 |
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| @_archels | kanzure_: they can be, sure? | 06:38 |
| pasky | i think ANNs, deep learning etc. is pretty awesome stuff - for solving specific tasks | 06:38 |
| kanzure_ | _archels: moving your crappy software to an asic isn't going to fundamentally amke it better | 06:39 |
| kanzure_ | *make | 06:39 |
| pasky | but not for building a universal system, and more specifically, not for maintaining big amounts of knowledge | 06:39 |
| @_archels | kanzure_: absolutely, and there's a wide range of models that people refer to as ANNs | 06:40 |
| @_archels | but yeah, early optimisation fallacy. | 06:40 |
| kanzure_ | pasky: why do you think statistics is a better approach than brain science? | 06:40 |
| kanzure_ | pasky: ANNs etc are all boring and you should forget them | 06:41 |
| pasky | lol | 06:41 |
| pasky | well, brains are optimized for smart behavior, not for knowledge, I believe; the knowledge is just to support behavior | 06:41 |
| pasky | smart people kind of abuse their brains in this regard ;) | 06:41 |
| kanzure_ | um, what do i care what the fuck it's optimized for? | 06:41 |
| pasky | i do care when i'm copying it | 06:42 |
| kanzure_ | so far the brain is the only device that demonstrates the knowledge or behavior you desire | 06:42 |
| pasky | because if it's been optimized to do X and I want to do Y, it's kind of stupid to copy it because I'll get Y only when I build an almost-equivalent copy | 06:42 |
| kanzure_ | you'll only get Y because your copy is bad? don't make a bad copy? | 06:43 |
| kanzure_ | "because the brain does multiple things, it is therefore a bad idea" | 06:44 |
| pasky | yes, i do admit i can't build a good copy of a human brain | 06:44 |
| kanzure_ | so instead you'll make something totally unrelated and call it ai? | 06:45 |
| pasky | indeed! | 06:45 |
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| pasky | if I build a worse-than-human brain, I have an AI with intelligence of an ant or a rat, which just doesn't seem to be terribly useful | 06:46 |
| pasky | if I build a worse-than-human knowledge processing system, it can still process knowledge, and by huge amounts, possibly making up for deduction ability shortfalls or emulating humans that aren't very good in English or preprocessing data for humans | 06:47 |
| kanzure | "human knowledge processing system" is just hand waving for "something that is ai" | 06:48 |
| @_archels | if you consider a useless toy model that doesn't work very well more important to pursue than a fundamental step in the right direction, that's your call | 06:49 |
| @_archels | sorry, I don't mean to be overly dismissive--it'll surely teach you a lot of useful, practical skills | 06:49 |
| kanzure | i think i'm going to go extremist and claim that: the chances of you failing to build a human emulation are less than the chances of you failing to build a non-human-derived "knowledge processing system" (e.g., something in the same function space that brains occupy, but isn't a brain) | 06:49 |
| pasky | _archels: what's the right direction is tough to guess, isn't it? | 06:49 |
| @_archels | but set reasonable goals and don't advertise it as 'AI' | 06:49 |
| kanzure | yeah, don't call it ai | 06:50 |
| @_archels | no, not really | 06:50 |
| pasky | hmm, why isn't it AI? | 06:50 |
| @_archels | we have about 7 billion working example of how to do it | 06:50 |
| pasky | on hardware we can't feasibly reproduce | 06:50 |
| kanzure | the only thing that "ai" should really mean is "the thing that human brains are doing" | 06:50 |
| kanzure | actually the hardware issue isn't as big of a deal | 06:51 |
| @_archels | your last statement is patently rubbish | 06:51 |
| kanzure | have you read this yet? http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/markram-2006 (the video is also good) | 06:51 |
| pasky | I'll reat that | 06:52 |
| pasky | *read | 06:52 |
| kanzure | actually i guess archels should evaluate the quality of that | 06:52 |
| * _archels wonders what the state of natural language processing with ANNs is these days | 06:52 | |
| kanzure | since he's the actual neuroperson here | 06:52 |
| kanzure | I AM NOT WORTHY | 06:53 |
| eudoxia | i watched the video and the part about "literally painting onto dendrites" sounded a little woo woo but what do i know | 06:53 |
| kanzure | oh yeah, sure | 06:53 |
| kanzure | well, the voltage modulation between minicolumns is sciencey at least, even if individual dendrite painting is obvious acid tripping | 06:53 |
| kanzure | but he has a billion dollars and you don't, so.. | 06:54 |
| pasky | kanzure: re "human knowledge processing system", I was pretty specific about that being a question answering system; that's something with concrete interface, deliverables and ideal performance, doesn't seem handwavy to me | 06:54 |
| kanzure | that's fine, but i wouldn't call it ai | 06:55 |
| pasky | re "intelligence", I just don't share the view that it should be focused on 1:1 match of human brain capabilities, that seems terribly boring - and less _useful_ than a more general definition | 06:55 |
| @_archels | if you're satisfied with answers that appear to have been translated from English to Chinese and back about 7 times, go for it :) | 06:55 |
| kanzure | we don't have a general definition | 06:56 |
| pasky | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence lists plenty and I think most of them fit | 06:57 |
| kanzure | "A very general mental capability that, among other things, " they mean brain | 06:57 |
| kanzure | "Individuals differ from one another in their ability to understand complex ideas" they mean people with brains | 06:57 |
| pasky | i see no reason why they would | 06:58 |
| kanzure | groundtruthing is really important when working on the big problems | 06:58 |
| pasky | brb lecture | 06:58 |
| kanzure | _archels: i have an idea, | 06:59 |
| kanzure | _archels: let's make an ai that totally ignores the human brain | 06:59 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=f4f47b7e Bryan Bishop: yet another abbreviation >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ | 07:01 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=d189651c Bryan Bishop: Merge remote-tracking branch 'master' >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/ | 07:01 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=b2408cb0 Bryan Bishop: even more abbreviations >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ | 07:01 |
| @_archels | Plato would be proud. | 07:02 |
| @_archels | looks like the Stanford NLP group is working on applying deep learning to NLP | 07:05 |
| @_archels | on the boundary of what goes as 'neuromorphic' for me, though | 07:05 |
| kanzure | i think my boundary of neuromorphic is something like "must, at minimum, have ordinary differential equations rearding different matter squeezing through ion channels in the cell membrane" | 07:06 |
| kanzure | *regarding | 07:06 |
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| @_archels | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3733003/pdf/fpsyg-04-00500.pdf | 07:08 |
| kanzure | unicode error | 07:08 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/5923535000692f2883fb058ae620b447.pdf | 07:09 |
| kanzure | what! | 07:09 |
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| @_archels | pasky: ^ | 07:09 |
| kanzure | why doesn't mplayer change the title on my screen when the stream changes titles? :| | 07:14 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGgDMjA-agg&t=60s | 07:20 |
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| yoleaux | ANIMA MUNDI - Godfrey Reggio | 07:20 |
| kanzure | (this is my "recalibration" video) | 07:24 |
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| pasky | _archels: that's nice; but it seems it's practical solution is far from state-of-art in normal NLP; but I'll read it in detail | 08:46 |
| pasky | _archels: I'm not saying that where this *leads* to may be more powerful than current methods, but it seems like just a start | 08:46 |
| pasky | I'm now interested in putting together what we already have; we can do that with classic NLP parsers, statistics, deep learning and reinforcement learning, but if we blacklist some of the technologies since they don't occur in human brain, there is nothing to synthetize | 08:47 |
| * pasky would be fine with disapproval but is kind of disappointed by what seem to him like terribly narrow-minded, purist views | 08:48 | |
| pasky | anyway, i'll go read that paper in detail | 08:48 |
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| FourFire | probably old news, but: http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenkotler/2014/05/21/suspended-animation-goes-primetime-say-goodbye-to-death-as-we-know-it/ | 08:59 |
| FourFire | I'm sorry, is this channel cryonics agnostic, or is there another consensus view? | 09:00 |
| eudoxia | i'm about 80% sure suspended animation for a few hours won't change the mainstream view on the plausibility of cryonics | 09:02 |
| kanzure | hah why is the brain seen as a purist view | 09:03 |
| kanzure | if anything it's the opposite of the symbolic ai purist view | 09:03 |
| kanzure | what's narrow minded about 'the chances of you failing to build a human emulation are less than the chances of you failing to build a non-human-derived "knowledge processing system"' | 09:05 |
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| juri_ | I have the unique opportunity to hang out with SciFi author and programmer/nanotechnologist, Ramez Naam. Thought I'd ask this group of transhumanists if there are any questions you'd ask if you were me. | 09:34 |
| juri_ | ^-- friend of mine. | 09:34 |
| FourFire | I've never heard of him | 09:34 |
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| kanzure | airport baggage system design failure analysis http://calleam.com/WTPF/wp-content/uploads/articles/DIABaggage.pdf | 09:40 |
| kanzure | he spammed me with a "happy birthday" once, you should complain to him about that | 09:40 |
| kanzure | .wik ramez naam | 09:42 |
| yoleaux | "Ramez Naam is a professional technologist and science fiction writer. He was involved in the development of widely used software products such as Microsoft Internet Explorer and Microsoft Outlook. His last role at Microsoft was as a Partner Group Program Manager in Search Relevance for Live Search." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramez_Naam | 09:42 |
| kanzure | "professional technologist"? | 09:42 |
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| kanzure | so that airport could probably have been better designed such that you needed less trolleys for moving luggage | 10:37 |
| kanzure | for example, a large linear desing where the airport itself is laid out for the purposes of luggage transport rather than people distribution | 10:37 |
| kanzure | *design | 10:38 |
| kanzure | no sharp corners for luggage transport | 10:38 |
| kanzure | limited number of moving parts; maybe use gravity for transporting cargo to a central location where the upward movement occurs | 10:39 |
| kanzure | you could also use a water flow system, where you place luggage on floatables | 10:39 |
| kanzure | and then you could do a floating bucket tagging system rather than having a person reach around for the id tag sticker on the luggage itself | 10:41 |
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| eudoxia | how about a marquee over the luggage conveyor that announces names as the luggage comes around | 10:46 |
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| nmz787_i | until your bag with computers falls into the water system and you sue the airport for using water instead of dry conveyors | 11:11 |
| chris_99 | heh | 11:12 |
| chris_99 | use oil instead of water then | 11:12 |
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| @_archels | pasky: I encourage you to use 'classical' machine learning methods to implement an expert system, but advise you to be conservative (and concrete) in your stated goals | 12:16 |
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| kanzure | uspto budget is $2 billion/year | 12:34 |
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| kanzure | "Patent fee collections are estimated to be between $2,609 and $2,962 million for FY 2014. These projections are based on assumptions that patent filings will increase between 2 and 6 percent." | 12:37 |
| kanzure | see http://www.uspto.gov/about/stratplan/budget/fy14pbr.pdf | 12:38 |
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| pasky | kanzure: okay, phrased like that of course it's not narrow-minded, but the general notion of achieving intelligence by something else than emulating neurons seems to have produced a surprisingly hostile response :) dunno, to me it is just like insisting that a flying machine must flap its wings | 13:32 |
| pasky | then again, i was double-thinking whether to include brain emulation in the list of fallacies so i guess i had it coming when i went ahead | 13:33 |
| kanzure | i would posit that it is not at all like a flying machine.... for starters. | 13:33 |
| kanzure | and if you don't know how to fly, then copying wings is a good idea. | 13:34 |
| pasky | for sure, as a default option, but then it turns out that building functional bird-like wings is really tricky | 13:35 |
| kanzure | i over-emphasize neurons because of the lack of emphasis that neurons have always had | 13:36 |
| kanzure | the vast majority of all "ai" projects have been overwhelmingly non-biologically-accurate | 13:36 |
| pasky | _archels: of course, in my current project, i have way more specific goals and i usually never mention strong ai to people i explain brmson to :) this was just an attempt on a statement of where it fits in my personal philosophy | 13:36 |
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| kanzure | while it is true that the brain is not the only feasible implementation of whatever it is that the brain does that is interesting, it is the only implementation we have and know how to make, so the insistence on starting with something not known to work seems like complicating the problem by a million or billion fold | 13:39 |
| kanzure | however, you'll be able to easily convince fenn i'm sure. he's totally into symbolic ai like that. cough. | 13:42 |
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| Lemminkainen | kanzure ain't going to get far on neurons alone | 13:43 |
| Lemminkainen | include microglial neurotransmitter dynamics | 13:43 |
| kanzure | well you're not going to get far on xml opencyc version 31904 | 13:43 |
| * kanzure glares at stephen reed | 13:44 | |
| kanzure | i can see him through my walls | 13:44 |
| Lemminkainen | are your ampakines off? | 13:44 |
| kanzure | stephen reed is a reference to a person that people interested in ai know about | 13:44 |
| kanzure | and he lives in austin, so saying "i can see him through my walls" is a reference to that | 13:44 |
| kanzure | this comedy club is tough! | 13:44 |
| cpopell | One step closer to gainful employment. | 13:45 |
| Lemminkainen | I can't tell what's ironic and what's real anymore | 13:45 |
| Lemminkainen | post-post-modern reality disillusionment disorder | 13:45 |
| kanzure | i am real. you have me. | 13:46 |
| gradstudentbot | Well, you can't guarantee that. | 13:47 |
| Lemminkainen | lookit that serendipity | 13:49 |
| pasky | kanzure: *if* we knew how to make it, I'd agree, but that's a pretty bold statement | 13:53 |
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| pasky | and I certainly wouldn't call my approach symbolic | 13:53 |
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| FourFire | pasky, the question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim | 14:11 |
| pasky | FourFire: i know that quote, and your point is? :) | 14:17 |
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| FourFire | well, submarines obviously don't swim | 14:18 |
| FourFire | but they do *travel through water* | 14:18 |
| FourFire | there's probably many different ways to process data, and solve problems, but we don't know them until we test them | 14:19 |
| @_archels | pasky: what *is* your approach? | 14:19 |
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| pasky | FourFire: so that's what I'm doing :) | 14:53 |
| FourFire | pasky, what, machine learning without NN ? | 14:55 |
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| FourFire | can you spell out your methodology, briefly? | 14:55 |
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| gradstudentbot | Wasn't there a paper about that? | 14:56 |
| pasky | FourFire: no, question answering; I suppose right now there isn't a better document than https://github.com/brmson/yodaqa/blob/master/doc/HIGHLEVEL.md | 15:02 |
| pasky | it's still an early work in progress :) | 15:02 |
| FourFire | cool, I'll read it later. fr now, I have to go | 15:03 |
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| kanzure | beep | 20:14 |
| kanzure | superbeep? | 20:22 |
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| juri_ | eep? | 20:27 |
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| kanzure | how is this a test? http://git.dev.opencascade.org/gitweb/?p=occt.git;a=blob;f=tests/boolean/bfuse_complex/A5;h=7016f331c4c6b103893ec6fcae3d048886d045c9;hb=HEAD | 20:54 |
| kanzure | what is it testing against | 20:54 |
| kanzure | or how does it know if the result is correct | 20:54 |
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| kanzure | "simplified python wrapper for opencascade" https://github.com/tenko/occmodel | 20:59 |
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| @fenn | lol i also have "post-post-modern reality disillusionment disorder" | 22:49 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=07180af9 Bryan Bishop: links to pythonocc and occmodel >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ | 22:52 |
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