| --- Log opened Sat May 24 00:00:14 2014 | ||
| @fenn | hmmm.. "Portia is a tool for visually scraping web sites without any programming knowledge. Just annotate web pages with a point and click editor to indicate what data you want to extract, and portia will learn how to scrape similar pages from the site." https://github.com/h4ck3rm1k3/portia | 00:05 |
|---|---|---|
| @fenn | the guy who wrote portia did some work on importing opensourceecology's compressed earth brick press into brlcad and put it on github | 00:06 |
| @fenn | his profession is "RDF introspector" http://rdfintrospector2.blogspot.com | 00:08 |
| @fenn | James Michael Dupont | 00:08 |
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| Andromeda | Hello | 00:10 |
| @fenn | hello | 00:12 |
| @fenn | that's an interesting address you have Andromeda | 00:12 |
| Andromeda | Yes, I have a question, Bluetooth and Arduino... | 00:14 |
| @fenn | perhaps you should try ##electronics | 00:14 |
| Andromeda | Got it thanks! | 00:14 |
| @fenn | are you connecting from a network operation center? | 00:15 |
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| kanzure | you scared him away with your sensemaking | 00:44 |
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| kanzure | .wik rospatent | 00:45 |
| yoleaux | "Rospatent is the Russian patent office. Its formal name is Russian Federal Service for Intellectual Property (Rospatent) (Russian: Федеральная служба по интеллектуальной собственности, Federalnaya sluzhba po intellektualnoi sobstvennosti) and its former name was "Federal Service for Intellectual Property, Patents and Trademarks (Rospatent)"." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rospatent | 00:45 |
| kanzure | "In the former Soviet Union, Goskomizobretenie (Russian: Госкомизобретений), which stood for Gosudarstvennyi komitet po delam izobretenie i otkrytii, was the State Committee for Inventions and Discoveries. It maintained a registry of inventions and discoveries and gave out authors certificates and patents." yes but why? | 00:45 |
| kanzure | "В 1918 г. декретом Высшего Совета Народного Хозяйства был создан Комитет по делам изобретений при Научно-техническом совете Высшего Совета Народного хозяйства." hmm | 00:46 |
| kanzure | "регистрация прав на объекты интеллектуальной собственности" | 00:47 |
| kanzure | this does not sound very soviet | 00:48 |
| kanzure | but hey, i am not russian, what the fuck do i know | 00:48 |
| gradstudentbot | My code doesn't work. I have no idea why... | 00:49 |
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| kanzure | "Foreigners may obtain patents on equal terms with the citizens of the U.S.S.R. The patent may be also granted to a corporation when it is difficult to determine the work of an individual inventor in an industrial organization. Patents are issued for a term of 15 years and there is no filing fee. Taxes on the invention are paid only after it has been realized or exploited." | 00:58 |
| kanzure | "The patent gives exclusive right to the inventor to exploit the invention industrially in the U.S.S.R. The patentee may manufacture and sell his invention, he may license other manufacturers, or he may sell or assign his patent. At the expiration of the term of five years after the grant of a patent the inventor must show that he is working his patent in the U.S.S.R., the rules in this respect being similar to those prevailing in other ... | 00:59 |
| kanzure | ... European countries. The inventor may lose his patent if it is proved before the court that he is using his patent only as a means to exclude the invention from general use. If the inventor neglects to work his patent, he may be compelled to grant manufacturing licenses at a royalty fixed by the courts." | 00:59 |
| kanzure | uhuh.. "The old Soviet Union had a patent office in Moscow and inventors received certificates after signing their intellectual property rights over to the state." | 01:01 |
| kanzure | here's some history of patents in the soviet union and technology transfer to the united states: https://www.msu.edu/~lisacook/sov_pats_paper_0411_final.pdf | 01:03 |
| kanzure | "Few patents were commercialized, whether measured by licensing activity or assignment of patent rights." but i thought the state got the rights? | 01:04 |
| gradstudentbot | Where are the thermometers? | 01:06 |
| kanzure | "Shortly after the Bolshevik Revolution, the Polozhenie izobreteniiakh (Decree on Inventions) was signed in 1919. After this time pre-revolutionary patents lost legal standing. Intellectual property rights have been legally protected in Russia since 1812 as a result of Alexander I's Manifesto on Privileges for INventions and Discoveries in the Arts and Sciences. Patents were replaced by avtorskoe svidetel'stvo (author's or inventor's ... | 01:08 |
| kanzure | ... certificates), which offered recognition of the inventor without control rights over the invention. Control rights were assigned to the Soviet government, and the technology was available to any state-owned enterprise or entity wishing to use it. Importantly, unlike for patents, applicants for inventor's certificates were not required to mention prior art." | 01:08 |
| kanzure | "In 1947, the desire for faster technological advancement resulted in reorganization of planning efforts, and a new agency, Gostekhnika, the State Committee for New Technology, was created to construct five-year, annual, and quarterly technological plans. Beginning in 1949, targets for inventive and innovative output were set in National Economic Plans. [anecdote follows]" | 01:10 |
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| @fenn | seeing how they were enemies, why wouldn't the US just do whatever they wanted with soviet patents | 01:12 |
| @fenn | and what the hell, soviet patents? | 01:12 |
| kanzure | lolz | 01:12 |
| @fenn | no i mean really, what the fuck | 01:13 |
| @fenn | you dont take over half the world to just half ass your ideology | 01:13 |
| kanzure | these guys did | 01:13 |
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| gradstudentbot | When is he back from sabbatical? | 01:14 |
| kanzure | "Therefore, as a part of a larger effort to harness the information and incentive advantages associated with markets in the 1960's, market-type incentives were introduced to increase individual effort. In 1956, the Council of Ministers instituted changes in patent law aimed at improving inventors' rights, clarifying the appeal process for inventors if an application fo ran inventor's certificate or patent was denied, and raising compensation ... | 01:16 |
| kanzure | ... to inventors. In particular, maximum compensation was set at 200,000 rubles, with the first 10,000 rubles being tax exempt, and was mandated to be paid "justly and promptly". These were nontrivial sums relative to Soviet salaries and bonuses for comparable activities. In 195, compensation for professors was 4,500 rubles per month; for junior scientific workers at research institutes, 1,050 to 1,350 rubles per month; for Academicians ... | 01:16 |
| kanzure | ... (elected to the All Union Academy of Sciences of the U.S.S.R), 5,000 rubles per month; and for authors of scientific books, 2,000 rubles per 15 printed pages. Cost-sharing was implemented such that inventors' fees were included explicitly in the budgets of all industrial, agricultural, and other units of economy." | 01:16 |
| kanzure | yeah.. pay by the page. what a terrible incentive strategy. this was their enlightened political group? | 01:16 |
| kanzure | oh man i wonder if i can dig up evidence that they compensated programmers per line of code | 01:17 |
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| @fenn | why did the soviets even use money? that's a major error right there | 01:20 |
| kanzure | "Individual incentives for inventive activity were not limited to pecuniary compensation but extended to prizes. All Soviet republics instituted periodic prizes for 'Deserving Inventor of the Republic'. Exemplary inventors and innovators may have also been elected as Academicians in their fields or awarded the honor Zasluzhennii izobretatel' CCR (Honored Inventor of the U.S.S.R) or Geroy Sotsialisticheskovo Truda (Hero of Socialist Labor), ... | 01:20 |
| kanzure | ... which was the highest decoration of the Soviet Union and given by the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the U.S.S.R. In addition, patent offices and departments were set up in firms, ministries, research institutes, and universities, i.e., where inventors worked." | 01:20 |
| kanzure | well at least their location was right | 01:20 |
| @fenn | i'm a Hero of Anarchist Laziness | 01:21 |
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| kanzure | i wonder how they decided to put their offices everywhere | 01:23 |
| kanzure | that's a rather unusual choice for people who want to do central planning | 01:23 |
| gradstudentbot | Who's in charge of the master mix? | 01:24 |
| kanzure | "To encourage Western inventors to patent in and transfer technology to the U.S.S.R., the decree extended equal and reciprocal treatment on par with Soviet patent-holders. As a result, patents were reserved almost exclusively for foreign inventors. Other decreed chanes attempted to promote patenting of Soviet inventions abroad. Soviet inventors were encouraged to patent abroad but were required to seek permission of the Committee on ... | 01:25 |
| kanzure | ... Discoveries and Inventions to do so and to file for a patent or IC in the Soviet Union first. In Soviet law, Soviet residents always had the right to patent abroad." | 01:25 |
| kanzure | "The foreign-trade organization charged with negotiating commercial transactions specifically between Soviet inventors and enterprises and Western firms was Vsesoiuznoe Ob'edinenie 'Lisensintorg' (Licensintorg) which was established in 1962." Licensintorg was both the authorized supplier of national industrial property rights and was responsible for 75 percent of imports of foreign licenses to modernize Soviet plants related to defense and ... | 01:29 |
| kanzure | ... consumer products. Licensintorg's promotional activities are touted in Western newspapers, e.g., in 1976 advertisement in the Times (of London) pictured in Figure 3. In addition, it promoted U.S. and other Western inventions in the U.S.S.R. Like inventions, targets for license sales were set and included in Five-Year Plans." | 01:29 |
| kanzure | .wik licensintorg | 01:29 |
| yoleaux | "Germane is the chemical compound with the formula GeH4, and the germanium analogue of methane. It is the simplest germanium hydride and one of the most useful compounds of germanium. Like the related compounds silane and methane, germane is tetrahedral. It burns in air to produce GeO2 and water." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germane | 01:29 |
| kanzure | uh.. | 01:29 |
| kanzure | heh they still exist http://www.licenz.ru/index_rus.html | 01:30 |
| kanzure | .title | 01:30 |
| yoleaux | Лицензинторг // LICENZ.RU | 01:30 |
| kanzure | "ФГУП “Лицензинторг” создано решением Правительства в 1962 году для осуществления международного технологического обмена на коммерческой основе." | 01:30 |
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| kanzure | "Представляя на международном рынке технологий практически все отрасли народного хозяйства страны, Объединение продавало иностранным покупателям, наряду с лицензиями на высокие технологии, такие лицензии, как технологию производства ... | 01:33 |
| kanzure | ... шампанского – во Францию, Германию; кваса – в Германию, кефира и мацони – в Японию, черного хлеба – в Финляндию." | 01:33 |
| kanzure | the soviets invented yogurt? | 01:33 |
| delinquentme | $450 spin coater https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WjBfd8fX20&feature=youtu.be | 01:34 |
| delinquentme | qualifies as hacked material. They're using a CD hotel as the enclosure. | 01:35 |
| kanzure | hrm they have an index of their exports: http://www.licenz.ru/trade_tec.htm | 01:35 |
| kanzure | hah and some contracts http://www.licenz.ru/typicaldocs.htm | 01:35 |
| kanzure | i'm totally going to export paperbot to them | 01:35 |
| kanzure | maybe i can get a soviet era patent out of it, i'll have them check the back room for any left over stock paper (sounds like they will have a lot since they didn't quite get as many patents as they hoped) | 01:36 |
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| kanzure | i guess they just thought, "inventions? oh yeah, we'll need those.. uh. give them a certificate or something, to congratulate them on their disclosure. but also, don't let them get paid." | 01:40 |
| kanzure | but 200k rubles sounds like a comparably large incentive.. | 01:40 |
| kanzure | "Second, inventors and research institutions often did not pursue patenting because of their socialist and bureaucratic orientation, e.g., as articulated by Artemyev above. Given the appropriability of most non-military inventions and the entrenched belief that scientific knowledge is a public good (that would help defeat capitalism), it is not surprising that socialist beliefs, customs, and practices may have diminished participation in the ... | 01:44 |
| kanzure | ... claim of monoply rights over invention. Third, obtaining a patent in the Soviet Union was relatively expensive. Indeed, according to Lerner (200b), the cost to a domestic patentee would have been prohibitive -- more than 10 time sthat of the U.S. in 1950 and nearly double that of the U.S. in 1978." | 01:44 |
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| kanzure | "Soviet patent and inventor's-certificate (IC) records are available for grant years 1973 to 1991 (patents) and 1977 to 1991 (ICs). As a result of these data constraints, data on roughly 76 percent of total known IC documents, over 800,000, could be extracted." | 01:45 |
| kanzure | after the singularity? blah | 01:45 |
| kanzure | "There are 623,357 ICs, 216 Soviet patents, and 6,899 U.S. patents granted to Soviet residents in the data set. Data on ICs extended from 1977 to 1991; on Soviet patents, from 1963 to 1991; and on U.S. patents, from 1959 to 1991." | 01:47 |
| kanzure | "First, for a given technological category, Soviet patent teams are much larger on average than other teams, which is consistent with full-employment objectives in a planned economy. Soviet patent teams had 7.4 members on average relative to other chemical patents, which had 2.4 on average. Second, for a given technological category, Soviet inventors' patents were of lower quality on average, as measured by forward citations. Soviet teams on ... | 01:49 |
| kanzure | ... mechanical patents had 3.8 forward citations, and their counterparts had 7.7." | 01:49 |
| kanzure | well duh, if they didn't have to cite prior art, why would they? | 01:49 |
| kanzure | "This finding parallels that of Heuer, et al. (1983) whose citation analysis revealed that there were relatively few highly-cited papers among Soviet scientists during the Soviet period." | 01:50 |
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| kanzure | well that was one hell of a weird paper | 02:00 |
| kanzure | what did i just read? | 02:00 |
| kanzure | you could basically read all of their patents if there's only 216... | 02:03 |
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| @fenn | what's the difference between a patent and inventors certificate | 02:07 |
| kanzure | "In 1931, the "Statute on Inventions and Technical Improvements" gave more detailed shape to these principles.8 This single statute did provide for patents-as protection for private ownership of an invention-as well as for inventors' certificates, thus theoretically offering inventors the choice to retain control and exploit their inventions by obtaining a patent in the traditional sense. Such dual protection remained available without basic ... | 02:09 |
| kanzure | ... changes until 1991. The reappearance of patents had been foreshadowed by the "Decree about Patents for Inventions" of 1924,9 which reflected the liberalisation and return to limited private ownership of the NEP (New Economic Policy), later portrayed as a tactical step back in the context of post-civil war reconstruction." | 02:09 |
| kanzure | from http://epublications.bond.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=law_pubs&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fscholar.google.com%2Fscholar%3Fq%3DInnovations%2520and%2520patenting%2520in%2520the%2520Soviet%2520Union%2520%253A%2520The%2520case%2520of%2520imposed%2520eco-legal%2520monopsony#search=%22Innovations%20patenting%20Soviet%20Union%20%3A%20case%20imposed%20eco-legal%20monopsony%22 | 02:09 |
| kanzure | urlwtf | 02:09 |
| kanzure | "However, even after 1931, a Soviet citizen could only in theory choose to apply for a patent rather than an inventor's certificate. The "institution" of the inventor's certificate reflected general State control and central planning; patents, regulated along private property lines - indeed the USSR joined the Paris Convention in 1965 - obviously did not. Therefore, the following figures are telling: between 1965 and 1968, of 80,000 rights ... | 02:11 |
| kanzure | ... granted to Soviet residents, three only were for patents.10 The main reasons, apart from "socialist morality",11 were that patents were not available for a host of subject-matters,12 and only inventors' certificates were available for employee inventions, which in 1985 constituted 80 per cent of all inventions. Patents were also little used by foreigners, as their effectiveness, enforceability and relevance were doubtful. It has been ... | 02:11 |
| kanzure | ... suggested that even those patents acquired by foreign firms were largely ignored by the important but secretive military sector.13" | 02:11 |
| kanzure | "However, even after 1931, a Soviet citizen could only in theory choose to apply for a patent rather than an inventor's certificate. The "institution" of the inventor's certificate reflected general State control and central planning; patents, regulated along private property lines - indeed the USSR joined the Paris Convention in 1965 - obviously did not. Therefore, the following figures are telling: between 1965 and 1968, of 80,000 rights ... | 02:12 |
| kanzure | ... granted to Soviet residents, three only were for patents.10 The main reasons, apart from "socialist morality",11 were that patents were not available for a host of subject-matters,12 and only inventors' certificates were available for employee inventions, which in 1985 constituted 80 per cent of all inventions. Patents were also little used by foreigners, as their effectiveness, enforceability and relevance were doubtful. It has been ... | 02:12 |
| kanzure | ... suggested that even those patents acquired by foreign firms were largely ignored by the important but secretive military sector.13" | 02:12 |
| kanzure | "rationalisation proposals" | 02:13 |
| gradstudentbot | Oh yeah, I'll pay you once my stipend posts. | 02:13 |
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| kanzure | huh, the state was required to inform academic institutions about new patents | 02:13 |
| kanzure | makes sense | 02:13 |
| kanzure | "In the absence of private ownership, the law attempted to provide an alternative incentive system aiming to promote a spontaneous creative upwelling from the factory floor and the masses in general. Incentives provided for certified inventions were: limited monetary gain, based on cost savings due to implementation, some work and living condition improvements, titles like "Meritorious Innovator of the Republic", and a general emphasis on the ... | 02:14 |
| kanzure | ... recognition and protection of individual authorship.27 But no licensing relationship between inventor and user existed and, given the strict and low limits on rewards and the free use of all inventions, material incentives provided by the law itself were not great. This does not mean that there were not other non-statutory rewards available to successful inventors in certain circumstances." | 02:15 |
| kanzure | "At a Central Committee meeting of the CPSU47 in October 1988 the Council of Ministers of the USSR was instructed to prepare a new law on inventions, incorporating the new emphasis on profitability, and the promotion of development and implementation of new technologies. When finalised, the project of law was transmitted to the President of the Supreme Soviet, and was then published as a draft on 23 December 1988, with a period of discussion ... | 02:22 |
| kanzure | ... until 5 March 1989.48 This draft, which not surprisingly caused much controversy overall, eliminated inventors' certificates, and put the whole system on a private property (or "private commodities") footing. Inventions were to be protected by patents only (s 8) and the patentee was to have exclusive rights over inventions (ss 9 and 30(2». Companies could also be patentees, whereas before they could only hold inventors' certificates.49 ... | 02:22 |
| kanzure | ... The draft put an end to free use of inventions and imported capitalist monopoly structures and licensing conditions into the law." | 02:22 |
| kanzure | "However, the draft did sho wsigns of compromise. In effect it left open the possibility of continuing with a system much like the previous one, with considerable State influence and control, mainly through the provisions relatin to the 'State Patent Fund' and certain licensing arrangements. According to s 12(1) of the draft, citizens, enterprises and social organisations could opt to assign their patents to a 'State Patent Fund'. They would ... | 02:24 |
| kanzure | ... then (s 30(4)), as of old, be freely available for use by all Soviet citizens and enterprises. The incentives to transfer patents to the Fund were waiver of issuing and maintenance fees, and the assignors' retaining a right to remuneration, to be agreed with users of the patents, but within certain limits (s 46(2)(3)). Alternatively, an inventor could retain the patent, but declare an open license (s 32), which resulted in a 50 per cent ... | 02:25 |
| kanzure | ... reduction of fees, and allowed anyone, for payment of an agreed license fee, to use the patent." | 02:25 |
| kanzure | "It provided for housing and pension rewards for inventors (ss 51, 52) and contained sections concerning financing of development (ss 42, 43, 44) and use (ss 39, 41, 48) of invention." | 02:25 |
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| kanzure | "The Law also provided tax incentives for the use and implementation of inventions (s 28)." | 02:28 |
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| kanzure | http://www.reddit.com/r/Ripple/comments/26ccz3/ripple_board_member_resigns/ | 02:39 |
| kanzure | i'm still pretty sure that you read a thing about ripple prior to 2008 | 02:39 |
| kanzure | but you deny it and i am confused | 02:40 |
| * kanzure sleeps | 02:40 | |
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| superkuh | It has probably already been linked sinec it was on the mailing sci-lib-front mailing list, but, http://www.ccapprox.info/pod/pod.php | 03:15 |
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| GeDaMo | There's a subreddit called scholar which does the same thing | 03:19 |
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| @fenn | hasnt this been tried a zillion times | 05:31 |
| @fenn | How anonymous is "anonymous"? | 05:32 |
| @fenn | Very, very anonymous. | 05:32 |
| @fenn | ok here is where you insert a disclaimer about watermarking | 05:32 |
| @fenn | sheesh | 05:33 |
| @fenn | nevermind simple IP logging | 05:33 |
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| cheesesource | OH GOOD EVENING | 06:21 |
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| cheesesource | How early is too early to call someone on a saturday morning? | 06:32 |
| @fenn | always | 06:32 |
| cheesesource | Ah, fenn. You're the person I was about to call. May I pm you? | 06:32 |
| @fenn | um, uh, what? | 06:33 |
| cheesesource | Err, query. msg. LETS CHAT, BRO | 06:33 |
| cheesesource | etc. | 06:33 |
| @fenn | are you stuart? | 06:33 |
| cheesesource | No, I am not. | 06:33 |
| cheesesource | I've only been here once before. | 06:33 |
| @fenn | great, well, we're chatting | 06:34 |
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| cheesesource | YOU'RE FIRED! | 06:51 |
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| cheesesource | (Shhhh!) | 07:30 |
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| * fenn furtively hides the drugs | 07:39 | |
| cheesesource | Did someone say drags? | 07:42 |
| * cheesesource hides all the eyeshadow | 07:42 | |
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| @fenn | wake up, little suzie, wake up | 08:10 |
| cheesesource | Alligators may mistake you for prey. Don't go swimming at night. | 08:11 |
| cheesesource | Do not include alligators in the roadmap. | 08:12 |
| @fenn | au contraire! alligators are petinent map information | 08:12 |
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| cheesesource | Yeah, for shoes. | 08:13 |
| cheesesource | What's the map? I get the feeling it has nothing to do with treasure. | 08:13 |
| @fenn | it's a utility map | 08:14 |
| @fenn | treasure is just a proxy for utility | 08:14 |
| cheesesource | So you can, eh eh eh, utilise things? | 08:14 |
| cheesesource | (aaahahaha) | 08:14 |
| @fenn | instead of investing capital to make a product to sell for profit, why not just invest in utility directly? | 08:14 |
| cheesesource | (sorry, sorta) | 08:14 |
| cheesesource | Well, profit is awesome. | 08:15 |
| @fenn | .d profit | 08:15 |
| yoleaux | profit (/ˈprɒfɪt/): n. 1. A financial gain, especially the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something: record pre-tax ⁓s; v. (profits, profiting, profited) Obtain a financial advantage or benefit: the only people to ⁓ from the episode were the lawyers — http://is.gd/ADZqNP | 08:15 |
| @fenn | this means nothing to me | 08:15 |
| @fenn | a - b = c | 08:16 |
| * cheesesource frowns | 08:16 | |
| cheesesource | I like profit. | 08:16 |
| @fenn | a = c + b | 08:16 |
| @fenn | b + c - b = c | 08:16 |
| cheesesource | Especially when it's MY profit. | 08:16 |
| @fenn | c = c | 08:16 |
| cheesesource | And why is Egypt so horrible? | 08:17 |
| @fenn | because they have a corrupt government, no economy to speak of, bad educational system, crippling religious fanaticism, and they're in the middle of a desert? | 08:18 |
| @fenn | s/egypt/mali/ | 08:18 |
| cheesesource | But as someone in the western world, and with their possession of various notable landmarks, isn't it their duty to service my desires as a tourist? | 08:19 |
| @fenn | west of what? | 08:19 |
| cheesesource | Short answer: Your mother's house. | 08:20 |
| @fenn | i'm thinking persia, maybe? | 08:20 |
| @fenn | like when xerxes invaded athens | 08:20 |
| cheesesource | Pfft, booklearnin' begone! | 08:20 |
| cheesesource | DO YOU TAKE VISA? | 08:20 |
| @fenn | from now on ye shall refer to me as "King of Persia and Media, Great King, King of Kings (Shahanshah) and King of Nations (i.e. of the world)" | 08:21 |
| cheesesource | Or Bob. Can I call you Bob? | 08:22 |
| @fenn | no, bob is a holy prophet whose name is not to be used trivially | 08:22 |
| cheesesource | Well yeah | 08:23 |
| cheesesource | He's immortalised on a chalkboard I pass regularly. | 08:23 |
| cheesesource | Bob and The Pineapple. | 08:23 |
| cheesesource | Holy Bob, the bobble from Bobland. | 08:24 |
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| -!- fenn changed the topic of ##hplusroadmap to: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (4 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | 08:46 | |
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| @fenn | well that was weird | 09:09 |
| kanzure | http://blogs.ch.cam.ac.uk/pmr/2014/05/19/content-mining-will-be-legal-in-uk-i-inform-cambridge-library-and-the-world-of-my-plans/ | 09:21 |
| kanzure | GeDaMo: you seriously need to stop using reddit, http://diyhpl.us/wiki/articles is more comprehensive | 09:21 |
| @fenn | but oh noes privacy | 09:22 |
| kanzure | i am a little upset that quantumg went around me to talk to you about the issue | 09:22 |
| kanzure | hopefully you said no to the request | 09:22 |
| kanzure | 19:08 <QuantumG> then I'm outta here.. you're a cunt | 09:22 |
| @fenn | i deleted the relevant lines because i don't care | 09:22 |
| kanzure | fuck man | 09:22 |
| kanzure | fucking hell what the fuck | 09:23 |
| @fenn | it's not like it's a secret that this channel is logged | 09:23 |
| kanzure | you redacted lines | 09:23 |
| @fenn | apparently there is some bad personal history there | 09:23 |
| kanzure | yes i know | 09:23 |
| kanzure | that is not a good reason | 09:24 |
| kanzure | i offered to s/Cheesesource/notcheese/ | 09:24 |
| kanzure | that is when i was called a cunt | 09:24 |
| kanzure | in the future do not redact the logs without talking with me | 09:24 |
| @fenn | the value of the historical/grep utility is near nil | 09:24 |
| kanzure | no | 09:25 |
| @fenn | i'm not saying in general, just for those few lines | 09:25 |
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| @fenn | if i accidentally paste my private ssh key in the channel, you betcha i'm right changing them real quick | 09:26 |
| gradstudentbot | Where are the pipettes? | 09:26 |
| kanzure | you moron, you're supposed to revoke your key | 09:26 |
| @fenn | same thing | 09:26 |
| @fenn | maybe you're talking about public key infrastructure | 09:27 |
| kanzure | no i mean you're supposed to change all the machines | 09:27 |
| @fenn | anyway, the request seemed reasonable | 09:27 |
| kanzure | the point is, don't redact the logs | 09:27 |
| @fenn | you can't s/this universe/some other universe/ when it's convenient | 09:27 |
| kanzure | the request was totally unreasonable | 09:28 |
| kanzure | he asked for me to remove ALL of his lines EVER | 09:28 |
| @fenn | oh, i didn't do that | 09:28 |
| kanzure | AND to add a .htaccess redirect | 09:28 |
| kanzure | AND to put something in robots.txt for retroactive internet archive scrubbing | 09:28 |
| @fenn | yeah that's unreasonable | 09:28 |
| kanzure | these is completely unacceptable and fucking wrong | 09:28 |
| kanzure | 19:08 <QuantumG> then I'm outta here.. you're a cunt | 09:29 |
| kanzure | so now i get to suffer this cuntness and also have redacted logs | 09:29 |
| @fenn | only the important part was redacted | 09:29 |
| @fenn | which, thanks to this conversation, is now known to be important | 09:29 |
| @fenn | or something | 09:29 |
| @fenn | i would make a terrible spy | 09:29 |
| @fenn | en pissant | 09:30 |
| kanzure | ecruoseseehc ecruoseseehc ecruoseseehc ecruoseseehc ecruoseseehc | 09:30 |
| streety | someone posted their private key in the channel? | 09:30 |
| * streety goes to check his logs | 09:31 | |
| chris_99 | heh no i think that was an example | 09:31 |
| @fenn | thank you barbara streisand | 09:31 |
| @fenn | what was the name of that spanish guy with the bad mortgage debt who sued google... | 09:32 |
| @fenn | "Peeing Frenchman Sues Google Over Embarrassing Street View Photo" | 09:33 |
| gradstudentbot | I think I'll be done in 6 years. | 09:33 |
| @fenn | wow i really can't find the name, this is scary | 09:35 |
| @fenn | Mario Costeja González | 09:36 |
| @fenn | thank you EU legal system | 09:36 |
| @fenn | "Before Streisand filed her lawsuit, "Image 3850" had been downloaded from Adelman's website only six times; two of those downloads were by Streisand's attorneys. | 09:39 |
| @fenn | As a result of the case, public knowledge of the picture increased substantially; more than 420,000 people visited the site over the following month." | 09:40 |
| @fenn | surely there's a way to make money with this effect | 09:41 |
| @fenn | 1) upload "secret product plans" to shill hacker website 2) ??? 3) profit! | 09:42 |
| kanzure | "amateur biologist accidentally publishes death ray plans, targets australia" | 09:42 |
| kanzure | "coke publishes new coke hyperzero recipe plans by mistake, totally isn't a marketing plan" | 09:42 |
| @fenn | "the onion reveals secret 'humor generator' software" | 09:43 |
| kanzure | censorship is an attack | 09:43 |
| kanzure | do you have any idea how many times i've said no to the fbi | 09:44 |
| @fenn | said no to what | 09:45 |
| kanzure | CENSORSHIP | 09:45 |
| kanzure | redaction of logs etc | 09:45 |
| @fenn | but it's the FBI, they have logs on everyone | 09:45 |
| kanzure | that's not what they wanted | 09:46 |
| kanzure | hell i didn't even redact the logs for nsh, and he was targeted by the u.s. military and federal reserve | 09:46 |
| @fenn | that's ... interesting | 09:47 |
| kanzure | http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/02/27/us-usa-crime-hacking-idUKBREA1Q1R720140227 | 09:48 |
| kanzure | anyway one of the articles directly linked to my logs | 09:48 |
| @fenn | "Love and three unnamed co-conspirators, including two in Australia and one in Sweden, infiltrated thousands of systems, including those of the Pentagon's Missile Defense Agency, the space agency NASA and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency" gosh this sounds awful exciting, unfortunately i know the what it was about and am summarily unimpressed | 09:49 |
| chris_99 | "sequel injection" | 09:51 |
| chris_99 | heh | 09:51 |
| @fenn | i randomly stumbled across this information while stalking the mesofluidics researcher named "lonnie love" | 09:51 |
| @fenn | chris_99: that's where you just make something up to finish the story, if you don't know the second half | 09:52 |
| @fenn | "harry potter sequel injection attack leaves millions in disarray" | 09:52 |
| chris_99 | i just thought calling it sequel was amusing | 09:53 |
| @fenn | "homosexuality rumors revealed to be work of viral marketing organization" | 09:53 |
| @fenn | During one conversation with Tommy, I describe the project and his response was, “I have bacteria that produce massive quantities of magnetic nanoparticles.” | 09:54 |
| @fenn | finally a reason to culture weird bacteria in my basement | 09:54 |
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| kanzure | hurrrr: yes i'm bryan | 09:57 |
| eudoxia | now that parts of the logs have been redacted, how will i know what is real and what isn't anymore? | 09:57 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: you can't trust the logs anymore, sorry | 09:57 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: i don't know what to tell you | 09:57 |
| chris_99 | is anything real? | 09:57 |
| @fenn | who are you and what are you doing inside my computer | 09:58 |
| @fenn | i demand that you get out right this instant! | 09:58 |
| hurrrr | any ideas how affordable cambrian genomics is to print DNA? other companies look like ~30-40cents/bp - or any other cheaper alternatives? (crosspost from #diybio) | 09:59 |
| eudoxia | how can someone be in this channel for years (on/off) and not know it has public logs | 09:59 |
| eudoxia | it's right up there in the /topic | 09:59 |
| @fenn | are they providing service to customers now? | 10:00 |
| @fenn | my guess is no | 10:01 |
| hurrrr | not judging by their website | 10:01 |
| kanzure | idtdna was supposed to be below $0.40/bp by now | 10:02 |
| kanzure | fenn: you understand why censorship and redaction is bad and wrong, right? | 10:02 |
| chris_99 | it's the first step to Nazism | 10:02 |
| @fenn | eudoxia: you just run a lazy simulation of the universe, only keeping those parts that are relevant to reconstructing unmodified logs, then hash that reality and hash this reality and when you wake up all hashed-out you'll know if the two were the same or not | 10:03 |
| gradstudentbot | Someone stole my pipette. | 10:03 |
| kanzure | chris_99: that's a poor reason | 10:03 |
| @fenn | kanzure: without digital notarization of the logs, i'm not sure i do | 10:04 |
| eudoxia | "Where they have redacted dongs, they will end in redacting human beings" - Heinrich Heine | 10:04 |
| @fenn | i mean i could write anything in there | 10:04 |
| @fenn | eudoxia: that's beautiful | 10:04 |
| eudoxia | how about each log has a hash, and each log includes the hash of the previous day's log :> | 10:05 |
| kanzure | no, the question is not the textual integrity, the question is your abuse of server permissions | 10:05 |
| hurrrr | store it in a blockchain | 10:05 |
| chris_99 | haha eudoxia | 10:05 |
| kanzure | yes it would be better if there was a perma-record, but also what would be good is if you had a fucking spine and some understanding of why censorship is problematic | 10:06 |
| @fenn | how about each client runs NLP processing to attempt to pervert the day's logs into the most humorous permutation-version (PER-VERSION) as proof of work | 10:07 |
| @fenn | with a winner takes all strategy nobody can say it didn't happen | 10:07 |
| kanzure | all future requests for censorship are now going to go straight to you since you've illustrated how terrible you are at protecting the logs | 10:08 |
| @fenn | will all lurking channel loggers please raise their hand | 10:09 |
| @fenn | the data integration entity requests your full cooperation | 10:10 |
| kanzure | still not the point | 10:10 |
| @fenn | what is the point | 10:10 |
| kanzure | i already said textual integrity was not the point | 10:10 |
| @fenn | is someone getting in trouble as a result of my inaction better than someone getting in trouble as a result of my action? i really don't get it | 10:11 |
| kanzure | the point is that you're the target of all futur eattacks now, that you have a very low barrier for taking action, and you'll probably delete other things as a result | 10:11 |
| hurrrr | attacks on .. irc logs ? | 10:11 |
| kanzure | yes there are lots of people that don't like irc logs | 10:11 |
| @fenn | protection against deletion is quite simple to remedy | 10:11 |
| @fenn | there are even write-only filesystems | 10:11 |
| kanzure | it's not just deletion fenn, it's the fact that we have someone running loose who believes in censorship and redaction with technical knowledge to circumvent whatever on the server he pleases | 10:12 |
| @fenn | freenet, DHT, whatever you want | 10:12 |
| @fenn | you want me to admit i did something wrong, and i just don't see it | 10:12 |
| hurrrr | kanzure - maybe it's a privacy thing | 10:12 |
| @fenn | person said something, changed their mind, who am i to judge | 10:13 |
| hurrrr | speaking of which - fenn actions are inconsequential, NSA got a copy of it | 10:13 |
| @fenn | our future robot overlords will have a good chuckle, or more realistically just sigh and move on | 10:14 |
| kanzure | it is wrong to privately respond to attacks by rolling over | 10:16 |
| @fenn | it wasn't an attack it was a polite request | 10:16 |
| kanzure | "excuse me, but if you wouldn't mind, would you please fucking die?" | 10:16 |
| kanzure | "oh well since you're being so nice about it.." | 10:16 |
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| hurrrr | kanzure: settle down | 10:17 |
| @fenn | you're right it could have been anyone asking me, but realistically no | 10:18 |
| @fenn | also, i'm having a hard time constructing any plausible reality in which that would happen | 10:18 |
| pasky | oh is this about ##hplusroadmap/2014-05-16 ? why would he even care? it's not really embarrassing, kind of boring actually | 10:19 |
| hurrrr | soo what projects are you guys currently working on ? | 10:19 |
| kanzure | pasky: 2014-05-19 | 10:19 |
| kanzure | hurrrr: http://diyhpl.us/wiki | 10:19 |
| kanzure | pasky: but really, it's about where he draws the line, and if he's even drawing lines at all in the first place that is problematic | 10:20 |
| @fenn | i don't believe in lines | 10:20 |
| kanzure | well you certainly believed in them enough to delete them | 10:20 |
| @fenn | you're the one with "ALL CENSORSHIP IS LIFE OR DEATH OMG YOU ARE KILLING US ALL" | 10:21 |
| hurrrr | fenn: not even conga? :O | 10:21 |
| eudoxia | when in doubt, don't redact | 10:22 |
| hurrrr | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna-synthesis.html <- how are you guys working on dna synthesis ? | 10:23 |
| kanzure | hurrrr: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/fbi-diybio-dna-v1.pdf | 10:23 |
| hurrrr | nice kanzure! | 10:25 |
| hurrrr | https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer#gallery <- ooooo | 10:25 |
| hurrrr | commits getting abit crusty, this reached stable ? | 10:26 |
| kanzure | this was recovered from a company called nanorex that operated between 2004-2009 | 10:26 |
| kanzure | it works if you follow the chroot instructions | 10:26 |
| kanzure | the code is poorly written and a maintenance nightmare | 10:26 |
| gradstudentbot | I lost my pipette. | 10:28 |
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| hurrrr | gotcha | 10:29 |
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| hurrrr | kanzure: went through the slides - is there a vid for this? looks like your suggesting some kind of microfluidic chip ? | 10:31 |
| kanzure | no video, it was at "top secret" fbi event ugh | 10:31 |
| kanzure | i do have transcripts from the other presentations though, http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012/ | 10:31 |
| kanzure | unfortunately they are all assholes and nobody did a transcript of my own talk | 10:31 |
| hurrrr | such is life | 10:32 |
| kanzure | indeed! | 10:33 |
| hurrrr | nice! | 10:33 |
| eudoxia | re:nanoengineer, the nanofactory video is really showing its age | 10:35 |
| kanzure | actually it looks like that because it was just one person making the animation | 10:35 |
| kanzure | to do more complicated renderings you usually need a team of starving blender users | 10:36 |
| eudoxia | http://www.lizardfire.com/ ah great the site's someone else's now | 10:36 |
| hurrrr | i remember reading alot of the stuff in that video isn't exactly possible/naive now ? | 10:36 |
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| hurrrr | is there any projects (open source or not) working on cost effective dna synthesis ? | 10:37 |
| eudoxia | the sorting wheel with the little spokes inside is total bullshit, but i don't think spokes to push out the molcules are necessary | 10:37 |
| eudoxia | the pressure gradient would pull the molecules out of the wheel. over time. statistically. probably. | 10:38 |
| kanzure | hurrrr: the only other people working on open source dna synthesis other than this channel are these guys: http://bioinformatics.org/pogo/ | 10:39 |
| hurrrr | i think i read about POSAM on diybio, isn't it supposed to be outdated or very expensive | 10:40 |
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| kanzure | it's only $20k | 10:40 |
| kanzure | btw we do have money floating around here for sufficiently crazy projects | 10:41 |
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| @fenn | what's wrong with sorting wheels? selective active transport is very common in biology | 10:44 |
| eudoxia | fenn: i meant the impossibly thin push-rods | 10:45 |
| @fenn | well particles don't actually exist either | 10:46 |
| eudoxia | i don't understand | 10:46 |
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| @fenn | for most (all) values of "actually" | 10:46 |
| @fenn | i mean it's an illustration of what we think might be going on, at the atomic level | 10:47 |
| @fenn | at that point you might as well argue about the lighting | 10:47 |
| hurrrr | whats the current state of the hplus dna synthesizor ? | 10:47 |
| @fenn | abandonware | 10:48 |
| hurrrr | synthesizer* (fenn can you fix that for me in logs plz ;) | 10:48 |
| hurrrr | abandonware :O whaaat why | 10:48 |
| @fenn | oops i am supposed to be giving off the impression of being a responsible and professional hardware developer | 10:48 |
| @fenn | i was never that into the idea of doing actual dna synthesis, having done plenty of it in college and realizing that you're just squinting at smudges on a radiograph and moving tiny drops of water around | 10:49 |
| kanzure | nmz787 claims to still be working on it | 10:50 |
| kanzure | i' | 10:50 |
| kanzure | i've simply changed my mind about the microfluidic focus | 10:50 |
| delinquentme | the hardware on it was cool | 10:50 |
| hurrrr | kanzure: changed to what? | 10:50 |
| kanzure | to non-microfluidic? | 10:50 |
| kanzure | dna synthesis is hard enough on its own | 10:50 |
| kanzure | no reason to adopt a broken technology too | 10:51 |
| kanzure | reasons why: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/heuristics | 10:51 |
| hurrrr | yes i gathed "non-microfluidic", no specifics? | 10:51 |
| kanzure | sorry to disappoint you, no content at the moment to share | 10:52 |
| kanzure | or any content at all | 10:52 |
| hurrrr | fair enough | 10:52 |
| eudoxia | maybe we can interest you in a package manager for open hardware: https://github.com/kanzure/skdb | 10:53 |
| eudoxia | ignore the last commit date | 10:53 |
| kanzure | i think http://gnusha.org/skdb is a better link because it has words that say things | 10:53 |
| hurrrr | if you guys like open hardware - you might like this, https://github.com/secondsight/secondsight-hardware/blob/master/visor-C-assembled.stl - also made an android rom that displays every 2d app in stereoscopic view (can be written better but eh) | 10:55 |
| kanzure | unfortunately no, we don't like stl | 10:55 |
| hurrrr | it's openscad | 10:56 |
| kanzure | committing stl to a git repository is like committing a compiled binary, it's a giant "fuck you" | 10:56 |
| hurrrr | https://github.com/secondsight/secondsight-hardware/ | 10:56 |
| @fenn | it's better than a solidworks file | 10:56 |
| gradstudentbot | My matlab crashed. | 10:56 |
| hurrrr | https://github.com/secondsight/secondsight-hardware/blob/master/visor.scad | 10:56 |
| kanzure | also, openscad is silly and wrong: why should a cad system have a custom language that sucks? why not just bind to an existing language that does not suck, and has things like variables (yes i know openscad has variables now) | 10:56 |
| kanzure | here is my alternative to openscad: https://github.com/kanzure/python-brlcad | 10:56 |
| hurrrr | figured it's better to send you to an STL that lets you view it in webgl, to communicate the idea | 10:57 |
| kanzure | i have dyshapia, it means i understand code faster than i understa-- hm i can't think of a good troll here | 10:57 |
| hurrrr | binaries compress just fine in git if you know what you're doing | 10:57 |
| kanzure | compression wasn't the issue i was referring to | 10:58 |
| eudoxia | size isn't a problem | 10:58 |
| eudoxia | repos are for source code, not build output | 10:58 |
| chris_99 | hurrrr, what lenses do you use | 10:59 |
| @fenn | ok that rubber band mount is super jank | 10:59 |
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| hurrrr | chris_99: it's adaptable to any, has a lens model, I would tell you to read the source or the README but i'm not a dick :) B&L 5X Aspheric Pocket Magnifier seemed to work best out of the consumer available lenses we tried for a smartphone screen. | 11:00 |
| kanzure | what's wrong with reading source code | 11:01 |
| kanzure | is it really bad source cod | 11:01 |
| kanzure | *code? | 11:01 |
| @fenn | .wik dyshapia | 11:02 |
| yoleaux | "Dysphagia lusoria (or Bayford-Autenrieth dysphagia) is abnormal condition characterized by difficulty in swallowing caused by aberrant right subclavian artery. It was discovered by David Bayford in 1761 and first reported in a paper by the same in 1787." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysphagia_lusoria | 11:02 |
| @fenn | whenever i see prose i have the urge to vomit | 11:02 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, im gonna move in w you for a while | 11:02 |
| @fenn | text all over the screen* | 11:02 |
| chris_99 | the rift uses some kind of fish-eye type lens right? | 11:03 |
| @fenn | its the same optics | 11:03 |
| hurrrr | it's not the same optics fenn | 11:03 |
| hurrrr | fenn: actually it works really well when you have to deal with a range of phones, theres ideally a tray or adapter would require another plate - but hey it's open source so happy to review a pull request | 11:04 |
| @fenn | i watched the carmack video where he talks about how difficult it is to make a rendering pipeline with less than 50 seconds of latency | 11:04 |
| @fenn | i really doubt an android app is up to the task | 11:04 |
| @fenn | 50 milliseconds* | 11:04 |
| hurrrr | fenn: thats not the problem, it's tracking | 11:05 |
| kanzure | he's just angry that he has to make asics | 11:05 |
| hurrrr | gyro gives you drift | 11:05 |
| @fenn | does your phone even have a gyro | 11:07 |
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| @fenn | stl's are a million times better than this: https://github.com/imoyer/086-005/blob/master/doc/IMG_2896.JPG | 11:16 |
| @fenn | "look i documented it!" | 11:17 |
| eudoxia | how hard is it to make at least a ditaa diagram | 11:19 |
| @fenn | also this is literally the only documentation in the entire project | 11:19 |
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| kanzure | soviet russia employed 1 million programmers | 11:41 |
| kanzure | this seems a little unlikely given how they did not have lots of access to personal computing though. hrm. | 11:42 |
| delinquentme | ParahSailin, are you around? | 11:44 |
| kanzure | don't ask to ask | 11:46 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, do you know about the functionality in these lines ? https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot/blob/master/modules/scihub.py#l31-34 | 11:51 |
| kanzure | afaik libgen isn't accepting uploads anymore, or it never worked, or something like that | 11:52 |
| delinquentme | That holding true even though I'm looking at the librarian/input.php page/ | 11:52 |
| delinquentme | looks like it works kanzure . Just uploaded 10.1126/scitranslmed.3006870 | 11:54 |
| delinquentme | Yeap looks completely functional. It would be lovely to have a way to test all of this though. Le Sigh web forms and 3rd party integrations | 11:57 |
| kanzure | use https://github.com/kanzure/requestions for unit testing functions that need to use requests | 11:59 |
| kanzure | oops https://github.com/kanzure/python-requestions | 11:59 |
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| kanzure | "that is an interesting question ineed. the common opinion holds that West has stolen all of its technologies from Russia :)" | 12:09 |
| kanzure | " i.e. in the USSR the technologies couldn't get into the market quickly, but on the West those ideas were quickly stolen and put into production" | 12:09 |
| delinquentme | https://github.com/kanzure/requests ja? | 12:11 |
| kanzure | http://python-requests.org/ | 12:11 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, do we want tests for this form work? What paper do we upload everytime we run a test? | 12:13 |
| delinquentme | I guess a less robust way is to just check the form names on each of those pages and assume nothings changed... | 12:14 |
| kanzure | nope there are no tests, writing tests would be a good thing to do | 12:15 |
| kanzure | hehe the soviet union patent system: http://patentdb.su/ | 12:15 |
| kanzure | cool this has content | 12:16 |
| kanzure | portable bore drilling thing? http://patentdb.su/4-2698-ruchnojj-perenosnyjj-stanok-dlya-rastochki-i-sverleniya-otverstijj.html | 12:18 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, portable http://www.bjwinslow.com/albums/surgical_instruments/trepan_skull_drill.sized.jpg | 12:21 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, where am I sleeping? Do you have a workshop w toys? | 12:21 |
| delinquentme | how far are you from austin? | 12:21 |
| kanzure | what's going on? | 12:24 |
| gradstudentbot | That's definitely a Nature paper. | 12:25 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, I'm asking about your compound | 12:33 |
| delinquentme | kanzureCompound | 12:33 |
| delinquentme | yeeeee this code ... hahah | 12:34 |
| sheena | http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/05/soylent-1-0-arrives-at-ars-we-mix-it-up-and-slurp-it-down/#p3 | 12:34 |
| delinquentme | we're like .. explicitly building the object for no good reason | 12:34 |
| delinquentme | U-ACORNSYS\pwang | 12:35 |
| kanzure | enclosure of integrated chips http://patentdb.su/4-1795527-sposob-germetizacii-integralnykh-skhem.html | 12:36 |
| delinquentme | ^ who dis? Is this one of our guys kanzure ? The thing is I could see if we're trying to do some kind of zotero integration where we're checking / verifying the information we're submitting to libgen ... but if we're not doing that, which we aren't at current, the way we've built this could be simplified. | 12:36 |
| delinquentme | also we've already had the conversation about the feedback cycle time making it silly. | 12:37 |
| delinquentme | SCIHUB_PASSWORD | 12:37 |
| kanzure | of course it can be simplified.. i've already told you that this code is bad. | 12:38 |
| delinquentme | ALSO. The setup needs simplified. I recall working on this thing for like 2 days and I was unable to get a working proto | 12:38 |
| kanzure | i don't remember who U-ACORNSYS\pwang is | 12:38 |
| delinquentme | TLDR: death for anything open source. | 12:38 |
| kanzure | i remember you asked me like 1 question then gave up | 12:38 |
| delinquentme | yeahhhhhh. no. anyways. | 12:39 |
| kanzure | remember, this is not a good project | 12:39 |
| kanzure | so don't expect it to be good. because i already told you it wasn't. | 12:39 |
| delinquentme | So let me see if I can hack on the local versions of the pages I've got | 12:39 |
| delinquentme | And I realize the passwords should be kept under lock + key | 12:39 |
| kanzure | what passwords | 12:39 |
| * delinquentme gets a wonderful terrible idea ! | 12:39 | |
| delinquentme | one sec. | 12:39 |
| kanzure | "Первая в СССР полупроводниковая интегральная микросхема была создана на основе планарной технологии , разработанной в начале 1960 года в НИИ-35 (затем переименован в НИИ «Пульсар») коллективом, который в дальнейшем был переведён в НИИМЭ (« ... | 12:41 |
| kanzure | ... Микрон »). Создание первой отечественной кремниевой интегральной схемы было сконцентрировано на разработке и производстве с военной приёмкой серии интегральных кремниевых схем ТС-100 (37 элементов — эквивалент схемотехнической сложности ... | 12:41 |
| kanzure | ... триггера , аналога американских ИС серии SN-51 фирмы Texas Instruments )." | 12:41 |
| kanzure | "Параллельно работа по разработке интегральной схемы проводилась в Центральном конструкторском бюро при Воронежском заводе полупроводниковых приборов (ныне — ОАО «НИИЭТ» ). В 1965 году во время визита на ВЗПП министра электронной ... | 12:42 |
| kanzure | ... промышленности А. И. Шокина заводу было поручено провести научно-исследовательскую работу по созданию кремниевой монолитной схемы — НИР «Титан» (приказ по министерству № 92 от 16.08.1965 г.), которая была досрочно выполнена уже к концу года."Тема ... | 12:42 |
| kanzure | ... была успешно сдана Госкомиссии, и серия 104 микросхем диодно-транзисторной логики стала первым фиксированным достижением в области твердотельной микроэлектроники, что было отражено в приказе МЭП № 403 от 30.12.1965 г. [5] [6]" | 12:42 |
| kanzure | "104 микросхем диодно-транзисторной логики" | 12:42 |
| kanzure | "В 1970-х годах минимальный контролируемый размер составлял 2—8 мкм , в 1980-х он был уменьшен до 0,5—2 мкм. Некоторые экспериментальные образцы фотолитографического оборудования рентгеновского диапазона обеспечивали минимальный размер 0,18 мкм." | 12:44 |
| kanzure | 2.8 microns in the 70s hehe | 12:44 |
| kanzure | .title http://www.computer-museum.ru/technlgy/su_chip.htm | 12:45 |
| yoleaux | Технологии. Виртуальный компьютерный музей. Англо-Русский компьютерный словарь. Вычисления в докомпьютерную эпоху. Технологии. Компьютерные игры. История развития электросвязи. История развития ПО. История вычислительной техники в … | 12:45 |
| yoleaux | России и за рубежом. | 12:45 |
| kanzure | "Это относилось не только к разработкам микроэлектроники, но и к созданию на её основе компьютерной техники, например, при воспроизводстве компьютеров серии IВМ-360 – (отечественная серия "РЯД 1-2")." | 12:48 |
| kanzure | they reverse engineered and built an IBM-360 ? | 12:48 |
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| delinquentme | kk it looks like the SCIHUB_PASSWORD isn't stored in plaintext anywhere within the history :D | 12:53 |
| kanzure | t doesn't work anyway | 12:54 |
| kanzure | *it doesn't work anyway | 12:54 |
| kanzure | just like i told you last time you asked | 12:54 |
| kanzure | my answer hasn't changed yo | 12:54 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, Specifically what doesn't work? | 12:55 |
| kanzure | scihub | 12:55 |
| kanzure | the password doesn't cause anything to happen | 12:55 |
| kanzure | http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%98%D0%98_%C2%AB%D0%90%D1%80%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%BD%C2%BB | 12:55 |
| delinquentme | How does paperbot fetch papers then? Is he only returning whats already indexed by libgen? | 12:55 |
| kanzure | libgen was just an extra feature that ParahSailin added | 12:56 |
| kanzure | and scihub was also an extra feature that was not originally included | 12:56 |
| delinquentme | OK so if I submit a paper not indexed on libgen. Does paperbot fetch it? and if so, from where? | 12:57 |
| kanzure | paperbot visits the url and downloads the paper | 12:57 |
| delinquentme | please fully answer the question. | 12:58 |
| delinquentme | where does the paper come from? Strictly libgen? | 12:58 |
| chris_99 | presumably it's using uni credentials | 12:58 |
| chris_99 | somehow | 12:58 |
| kanzure | none of the papers ever come from libgen | 12:58 |
| kanzure | chris_99: hush | 12:58 |
| kanzure | chris_99: it doesn't use any credentials, ever | 12:58 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, thats the info I needed. | 12:59 |
| kanzure | (in particular: the source code is complete) | 12:59 |
| chris_99 | ok | 12:59 |
| kanzure | argh i'm not lying | 12:59 |
| delinquentme | bc right now you're like " its downloading w magic " | 12:59 |
| kanzure | it's just using http, not magic | 12:59 |
| delinquentme | " How does paperbot get novel papers " | 12:59 |
| delinquentme | not httpmagic? | 12:59 |
| pasky | so it's just hosted at a host with the right ip address | 12:59 |
| kanzure | regular http | 12:59 |
| pasky | ? | 12:59 |
| delinquentme | yeah sorry was a dumb lib ref :P | 13:00 |
| kanzure | "П. Л. Щербина (Главный конструктор), П. В. Липатов и В. Н. Киселёв (зам. главного конструктора), Ю. Г. Попов (нач. цеха), В. Г. Глотов и А. В. Трушков (нач. отдела) НИЦЭВТ — Лауреаты Государственной премии СССР в области техники за 1973 год за разработку ... | 13:04 |
| kanzure | ... методов и создание технических средств комплексно-механизированного и автоматизированного технологического процесса для массового производства устройств памяти ЭВМ" | 13:04 |
| kanzure | 1973 ussr prize. manufacture of.. uh.. integrated chip wafer memory things? | 13:04 |
| delinquentme | urgh. Need cath. | 13:06 |
| kanzure | "Ёмкость оперативной памяти составляла 1024 полных машинных слова (которые в 1960-е назывались «коды»), или примерно 4.5 KB" | 13:06 |
| delinquentme | too much coffee ... need external bladder. | 13:06 |
| kanzure | they called "words" "e-numbers" instead | 13:06 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, it looks like we don't have a package in this project which explicitly interacts with HTML elements? ... IE something like phantomjs | 13:08 |
| delinquentme | on purpose? | 13:08 |
| kanzure | zotero handled that | 13:09 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, I don't know. | 13:10 |
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| eudoxia | the gnusha bot really doesn't like unicode | 13:21 |
| eudoxia | i assume, from the context, that the stream of dogecoin signs was cyrillic | 13:21 |
| delinquentme | https://github.com/carlcrott/paperbot/commit/4bcb47232ff0bc7e7991fbdf597235b30dbf744b kanzure ParahSailin | 13:21 |
| delinquentme | let me know if you want the comments nixed. I'd replace the operation with a non-explicit .submit() style operation as it would adapt better to whatever updates are made to the forms on libgen | 13:23 |
| kanzure | what is your question about this commit | 13:23 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, If you like it I'll send a pull request. Its nothing more than comments and an interrupt if the paper is already present | 13:23 |
| kanzure | if this was a pull request i would mere it | 13:24 |
| kanzure | *merge | 13:24 |
| delinquentme | I'll send one .. but this is untested :D | 13:24 |
| kanzure | what is "geneiss" and "upload" doing hardcoded there | 13:27 |
| kanzure | *genesis | 13:31 |
| delinquentme | yeah it was there before. we can take it out and treat it as an ENVVAR | 13:41 |
| delinquentme | Ideally we stick it in a file and pass that around for approved users. You tell me what you prefer. | 13:42 |
| kanzure | fuck the concept of "approved users" that's a terrible shitty idea | 13:42 |
| kanzure | it's probably not a username/password, you know | 13:42 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, if you're not worried about "approved users" then why not just leave it hardcoded? | 13:43 |
| kanzure | because hardcoding passwords is wrong | 13:44 |
| kanzure | (if it is a password) | 13:44 |
| delinquentme | sure but you're not actually suggesting an alternative then | 13:44 |
| kanzure | could be like any of the others- environment variables | 13:45 |
| kanzure | who cares? something other than "hardcoding passwords", if it is a password | 13:45 |
| delinquentme | To me the reasonable way to handle it is treat it like a database.yml file and keep the info to only those who need it | 13:45 |
| ParahSailin | what do you mean submit operation | 13:45 |
| delinquentme | ok but then in any of those cases were still giving it only to "approved users" | 13:45 |
| delinquentme | ParahSailin, so at current its not as bad as I thought ... as the document is being parsed for anything with a name field ... so its somewhat flexible in that all of the input fields will be in the dict | 13:47 |
| kanzure | committing a database.yaml file is also morally wrong, no matter how much the rails people disagree | 13:48 |
| delinquentme | but anything with a name is also pretty ... lax as far as " what is pertinent information ? " | 13:48 |
| kanzure | committing passwords to your repo is bad design (sigh) | 13:48 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, I do not advocate committing it | 13:48 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, no rails kids suggest that. | 13:48 |
| ParahSailin | well, i think libgen wants every input in the form submitted | 13:48 |
| ParahSailin | i dont think its bad to commit the libgen password to the repo anyway | 13:49 |
| delinquentme | ParahSailin, yeah totally. Its just a really explicit operation ... where if we were using something like mechanize ... we'd just tell it to submit | 13:49 |
| ParahSailin | i mean, its on plain text pretty obvious on their forum | 13:49 |
| delinquentme | which would map a little nicer to any future changes placed in by libgen | 13:49 |
| ParahSailin | yeah well libgen is spaghetti php | 13:49 |
| kanzure | you're just suggesting mechanize because you spend too much time in rubyland | 13:49 |
| ParahSailin | doesnt make sense to try to predict what sort of crazy changes russians will do to spaghetti php | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, :D | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | ParahSailin, exactly hence everything is already populated | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | and we literally should be getting the code to just hit submit ... and be totally dumb about the background operations | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | like we've got the submit URL hard coded in that POST | 13:51 |
| delinquentme | relocating. be back in 10 | 13:51 |
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| ParahSailin | ruby standard library has a lot of strange features | 13:58 |
| ParahSailin | like implicitly opening file handles to your command line arguments | 13:59 |
| kanzure | "Несмотря на то, что в 1951 году точечный транзистор уже устарел морально [49] , производство «типа А» продолжалось почти десять лет [45] , так как последовавшие за ним транзисторы на выращенных кристаллах и сплавные транзисторы уступали «типу А» в ... | 14:03 |
| kanzure | ... частотных свойствах. В течение всего десятилетия, по словам Шокли, успех производства зависел от «непостижимого шаманства» ( англ. mysterious witchcraft ) [50] " | 14:03 |
| * kanzure practices непостижимого шаманства | 14:03 | |
| kanzure | .title http://www.smecc.org/silicon_burns_-_by_mason_clark.htm | 14:17 |
| yoleaux | By Mason Clark | 14:17 |
| kanzure | "Carl Frosch and the Discovery of Oxidized Silicon, a remembrance by Mason Clark" | 14:17 |
| chris_99 | has anyone played with stereolithography here btw | 14:18 |
| kanzure | "The next time I visited Carl he had moved to a proper laboratory, a move that had historic importance. He was excited to show me his discovery. His silicon wafers had turned purple--a beautiful, uniform purple. What had happened? He and his assistant had hastened to inspect their system and correct the problem. Carl told us of the inspiration he had while he was driving home the evening of their purple disaster. He remembered that when they ... | 14:19 |
| kanzure | ... re-installed their furnace after the move there had been a problem with leaky rubber tubing in the hydrogen line. Air, i.e. oxygen, must have gotten into the furnace. So the next day they heated a silicon wafer without the flow of hydrogen -- in air. And there was the oxide layer on which the integrated-circuit industry rests. Highly pure, single-crystal, silicon forms a protective layer of oxide." | 14:19 |
| kanzure | "Frosch quickly learned to selectively remove the oxide, using hydrofluoric acid, and reported, "Surface Protection and Selective Masking During Diffusion in Silicon," J. Electrochem. Soc., 104, 547 (1957)" | 14:20 |
| kanzure | "It was the accident of leaky tubing and the alertness of Carl Frosch that overcame the dogma that "silicon burns." K. D. Smith was puzzled by Carl's discovery and took out of his ample desk drawers a sample of the silicon used to make microwave diodes in World War II. This he placed in a furnace, in air, and confirmed that "silicon burns." The sample survived but looked like a particle of moss -- overgrown with dendrites of silicon and ... | 14:20 |
| kanzure | ... oxide. It was this early experience with polycrystalline silicon, along with the science of the periodic table, that had established in our minds that silicon must not be heated in oxygen. When I moved to Pacific Semiconductors a year later, a very competent doctor of chemistry warned me that I must not attempt to heat silicon in an open-tube furnace lest it simply burn up. "Look at the periodic table," he scolded. Fortunately, Carl ... | 14:20 |
| kanzure | ... Frosch had just published his paper proving otherwise." | 14:21 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://jes.ecsdl.org/content/104/9/547.short | 14:21 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1149%2F1.2428650 | 14:21 |
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| kanzure | do people dive into oil wells? | 15:33 |
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| delinquentme | sounds horrifying. | 15:48 |
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| kanzure | "By the 16th century, the English Crown would habitually abuse the granting of letters patent for monopolies.[7] After public outcry, James I of England was forced to revoke all existing monopolies and declare that they were only to be used for "projects of new invention". This was incorporated into the Statute of Monopolies in which Parliament restricted the Crown's power explicitly so that the King could only issue letters patent to the ... | 15:59 |
| kanzure | ... inventors or introducers of original inventions for a fixed number of years. The Statute became the foundation for later developments in patent law in England and elsewhere." | 15:59 |
| kanzure | "Originally intended to strengthen England's economy by making it self-sufficient and promoting new industries, the system gradually became seen as a way to raise money (through charging patent-holders) without having to incur the public unpopularity of a tax. Elizabeth I particularly was a great abuser of the system, issuing patents for common commodities such as starch and salt. Unrest eventually persuaded her to turn the administration of ... | 15:59 |
| kanzure | ... patents over to the common law courts, but her successor, James I, was even more abusive. Despite a committee established to investigate grievances and excesses, Parliament made several efforts to further curtail the monarch's power. The result was the Statute of Monopolies, passed on 25 May 1624." | 15:59 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Monopolies | 16:00 |
| kanzure | "As gifts from the crown, there was no judicial review, oversight or consideration, and no actual law developed around patents.[4] This practice came from the guilds, groups who were controlled by the Crown and held monopolies over particular industries. By the 14th century the economy of England was lagging behind that of other European nations, with the guilds too small to control industrial production successfully. To remedy this, Edward ... | 16:00 |
| kanzure | ... II began encouraging foreign workmen and inventors to settle in England, offering "letters of protection" that protected them from guild policy on the condition that they train English apprentices and pass on their knowledge. The first recorded letter of protection was given in 1331. The letters did not grant a full monopoly; rather they acted as an extended passport, allowing foreign workers to travel to England and practice their ... | 16:00 |
| kanzure | ... trade.[5] An exceptional example (considered the first full patent in England) was issued to John of Utynam on 3 April 1449, granting him a monopoly.[6] Overseas, the practice of granting full industrial patents and monopolies became common in Italian states by the 1420s.[7]" | 16:01 |
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| kanzure | heh ""letters of protection" that protected them from guild policy" | 16:02 |
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| kanzure | "Based on the criticism of patents as state-granted monopolies inconsistent with free trade, the Netherlands abolished patents in 1869 (having established them in 1817), and did not reintroduce them until 1912.[28] In Switzerland, criticism of patents delayed the introduction of patent laws until 1907.[27][28]" | 16:12 |
| pasky | what? didn't Einstein work as patent clerk in bern in 1905? | 16:19 |
| kanzure | interesting observation =) | 16:20 |
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| kanzure | "north korea doesn't have a patent system, and look at what a mess they are in, therefore patents are good" | 16:30 |
| delinquentme | Has anyone done research on implanting a substantial number of younger cells into an aged mouse to see if that reverses any age-related maladies? | 16:30 |
| delinquentme | And I think it was max peto who told me that mesenchymcal stem cells can be injected and the body will route them to where they're needed | 16:31 |
| delinquentme | which is fucking *awesome* as far as ease of implantation is concerned. | 16:31 |
| gradstudentbot | I had to remind my professor who I was today. | 16:32 |
| delinquentme | looks fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcoVMXLTQzw&src_vid=DwQaW9brDVY&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_2977481679 | 16:41 |
| dingo | 20:07 < kanzure> they called "words" "e-numbers" instead | 16:42 |
| kanzure | .title | 16:42 |
| yoleaux | Unlocking L.A.'s Traffic Grid: Phreaked Out (Episode 1) | 16:42 |
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| dingo | an interesting statement from ukrainian, "We do not call them roller coasters back home -- we call them 'American Hills'" | 16:42 |
| gradstudentbot | Sorry about that. | 16:43 |
| pasky | delinquentme: i think they pumped young mouse's blood in an old mouse and it had pretty significant effects | 16:43 |
| delinquentme | pasky, yeah this is recent ... but that was literally cross plumbing the circulatory systems | 16:44 |
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| kanzure | damn even the congo is a member of the paris convention | 16:47 |
| kanzure | oh, but at least north korea isn't listed on http://www.wipo.int/members/en/ | 16:53 |
| kanzure | taiwan is also absent | 16:53 |
| kanzure | damn "This year's revision of the Taiwan Patent Act brings the country's law closer to international norms" | 16:53 |
| kanzure | south sudan looks untouched | 16:56 |
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| seba--- | hm | 17:36 |
| kanzure | yes? | 17:37 |
| seba--- | i'm interested in making GMOs which make specific proteins | 17:37 |
| delinquentme | ^^^^ | 17:39 |
| kanzure | what does "^^^^" mean? | 17:40 |
| seba--- | so anybody knowledgable about that? | 17:40 |
| kanzure | yes | 17:41 |
| seba--- | kanzure so what do i need? we've found the plasmid online hm | 17:42 |
| kanzure | have you ever done it? | 17:42 |
| seba--- | of course not, otherwise i wouldn't be asking lol | 17:42 |
| kanzure | have you ever cultured cells? | 17:42 |
| seba--- | yes | 17:42 |
| kanzure | have you ever used a transformation protocol, gene gun, electroporator, sonoporator, or other plasmid inserter device? | 17:43 |
| seba--- | wait cells, you mean like bacteria | 17:43 |
| kanzure | i mean any cells | 17:43 |
| seba--- | oh any yes sure lol | 17:43 |
| seba--- | well afaik there's just a protocol to follow, without using any devices | 17:44 |
| kanzure | there are many ways to force dna into a cell | 17:44 |
| seba--- | can you suggest a book on this? | 17:44 |
| seba--- | you mean the plasmid? | 17:44 |
| kanzure | shrug, whatever | 17:44 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/books | 17:45 |
| kanzure | sambrook is a good manual for protocols | 17:45 |
| seba--- | ok, i'm not really much a bio guy, i'm chemistry and all lol | 17:46 |
| kanzure | do you work with glassware and setup? | 17:46 |
| seba--- | glassware yes, but what do you mean with setup? | 17:47 |
| kanzure | setting up reaction rigs.. you know, where the glass touches other glass. | 17:48 |
| seba--- | oh that, yes sure | 17:48 |
| kanzure | ok then, i think you'll be fine following the plasmid transformation protocols | 17:48 |
| seba--- | yes, it shouldn't be hard from what i've read/know | 17:49 |
| seba--- | but i've never done it | 17:49 |
| seba--- | anyway, i've heard that even if you have the right plasmid, for the protein you're looking for | 17:49 |
| seba--- | there can be a problem with the protein expression | 17:50 |
| seba--- | and you must change the bacteria sometimes | 17:50 |
| seba--- | hm | 17:50 |
| seba--- | or sometimes it doesn't "come out" right, as in wrong conformation | 17:50 |
| seba--- | from what i understood | 17:50 |
| yashgaroth | depends on the protein, plasmid, cell line, growth conditions | 17:52 |
| kanzure | and phase of moon | 17:53 |
| yashgaroth | oh also purification method, and moon yes | 17:53 |
| seba--- | ok, so lots of tweaking | 17:54 |
| seba--- | hm | 17:54 |
| kanzure | one day i will develop a technique convoluted enough to depend also on *jupiter's* moons | 17:54 |
| yashgaroth | I did actually hear a story yesterday about someone blaming cell growth on gravity, like they moved the cell culture up two floors in the lab and it stopped growing | 17:55 |
| seba--- | lol | 17:55 |
| kanzure | depends on how they moved it i think | 17:55 |
| kanzure | and the container | 17:55 |
| seba--- | fucking biology voodoo | 17:55 |
| seba--- | i'll give this crap to my gf | 17:55 |
| yashgaroth | there were many better ideas than gravity, but nonetheless that was the guy's first thought | 17:55 |
| seba--- | i'll just purify the proteins then | 17:55 |
| seba--- | she'll grow this crap | 17:56 |
| yashgaroth | okay | 17:56 |
| seba--- | we want to have the BRAF protein kinase | 17:57 |
| seba--- | so we can play on it | 17:57 |
| yashgaroth | like to test inhibitors or what | 17:58 |
| seba--- | yes, simulation to practical, with dsc | 17:58 |
| yashgaroth | please rephrase your last | 18:00 |
| seba--- | we could outsource this crap to biochem department or someshit, but then they will harass us with "when will we finish" so they can get published | 18:00 |
| kanzure | you can just pay for it http://scienceexchange.com/ | 18:00 |
| seba--- | fun | 18:01 |
| seba--- | so i could just order bacteria which make BRAF, cool! lol that would be fun | 18:01 |
| seba--- | well actually hm, maybe you can buy them directly hah, never thought of it hm | 18:01 |
| seba--- | thou they probably have shitton crap bureocracy on GMO | 18:02 |
| yashgaroth | if you're in europe, yes | 18:03 |
| seba--- | plasmids are also cheap, like $50 | 18:03 |
| seba--- | yes europe :( | 18:03 |
| yashgaroth | well aside from being in europe, I doubt you'll get bacteria to express BRAF with either good folding or decent yield | 18:03 |
| seba--- | so how should we do it? | 18:04 |
| seba--- | what yield are we talking about? | 18:04 |
| yashgaroth | impossible to say, really | 18:05 |
| seba--- | well i could grow in a liquid medium i guess, larger amounts lol | 18:05 |
| yashgaroth | how much are you hoping to need for "simulation to practical, with dsc" | 18:06 |
| seba--- | let's say 1 mg | 18:07 |
| yashgaroth | well you'd need to use insect cells, maybe yeast, not bacteria | 18:08 |
| seba--- | insect ? lol | 18:08 |
| seba--- | yeasts seem better | 18:08 |
| seba--- | but how do you do it with yeasts? they don't work with plasmids lol | 18:09 |
| yashgaroth | you'd be surprised | 18:09 |
| seba--- | explain | 18:09 |
| yashgaroth | ok well you don't seem to know much about biology so I don't know how much to break it down for you | 18:10 |
| seba--- | try | 18:11 |
| yashgaroth | but you can use a piece of DNA that has your protein's gene, along with a selection gene, and shove that into some yeast | 18:11 |
| yashgaroth | some yeast will take that up and integrate it into their genome, then you use the selection agent | 18:11 |
| yashgaroth | and then you have yeast expressing your gene of interest | 18:11 |
| seba--- | hm | 18:12 |
| yashgaroth | there are protocols, just like for bacteria | 18:13 |
| yashgaroth | it seems like everyone selling recombinant BRAF uses either insect or human cells though | 18:14 |
| seba--- | is it hard to culture those cells? never did that, i only did fungi and bacteria | 18:14 |
| yashgaroth | yes, you need a sterile culture | 18:14 |
| seba--- | isn't that true for bacteria and fungi as well? | 18:15 |
| yashgaroth | not as much, but theoretically yes | 18:15 |
| seba--- | damn it, maybe we should just outsource this, seems all too messy lol | 18:16 |
| seba--- | what if you have badly folded proteins and you throw in some chaperones, would they do the dirty work? :D | 18:16 |
| yashgaroth | I fucking wish | 18:17 |
| seba--- | haha | 18:17 |
| yashgaroth | without bulk pricing, it should be somewhere between $15000-30000 to get 1 mg | 18:17 |
| seba--- | yes that's why the idea to make it ourselves | 18:18 |
| seba--- | lol | 18:18 |
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| yashgaroth | a setup to grow and purify it would cost vaguely that much, not to mention EU restrictions | 18:20 |
| seba--- | what's the problem with purification? | 18:20 |
| yashgaroth | how much experience do you have with it? | 18:20 |
| seba--- | a bit, but it's mostly time consuming | 18:21 |
| yashgaroth | if it wasn't time consuming I couldn't make a living doing it | 18:21 |
| seba--- | lol | 18:22 |
| kanzure | i bet you could come up with a physics-based calculated lower limit on how long purification should take | 18:22 |
| seba--- | time isn't much an issue | 18:22 |
| yashgaroth | I recommend you contact a few third party suppliers on scienceexchange or assaydepot, get some quotes from them | 18:22 |
| yashgaroth | might be able to get a mg for $5k | 18:23 |
| seba--- | naah lol we don't have yet proper funding for this, that's why we have to do it first gangsta, to get funding lol | 18:24 |
| yashgaroth | do you have equipment already? | 18:24 |
| seba--- | we have the university equipment, but it's pchem department lol | 18:25 |
| kanzure | cheater | 18:25 |
| seba--- | why :D | 18:25 |
| seba--- | it has some bio crap, but not so much hm | 18:25 |
| gradstudentbot | His lab is so awkward. | 18:25 |
| seba--- | oh well | 18:26 |
| seba--- | i guess we'll stick to theory | 18:26 |
| seba--- | let others confirm or deny by experiment lol | 18:27 |
| yashgaroth | probably your best bet, since my next step would be to list >$5k worth of equipment and reagents you'd need to buy | 18:27 |
| seba--- | what kind of equipment / reagents? | 18:28 |
| yashgaroth | incubator, chromatography columns/resins, cell culture media, cell lines | 18:29 |
| kanzure | autoclave, ultracentrifuge, probalby a thermocycler so you don't run out of dna | 18:29 |
| yashgaroth | tissue culture hood, various chemicals to make buffers for purification | 18:30 |
| seba--- | incubator is not a problem lol we'll just hack some gadget there to work as such, we might even have one, who knows lol | 18:30 |
| seba--- | chromatography stuff not a problem, have those | 18:30 |
| seba--- | cell culture media, depends on the media i guess, cell lines nope hm | 18:30 |
| seba--- | autoclave i have a pressure cooker, works good, i don't know if we have a true autoclave, would have to check | 18:30 |
| seba--- | chemicals we have lots lol thermocycler we have as well | 18:31 |
| yashgaroth | and I've no idea what kind of restrictions actually appear in the EU when you try to order cell lines and/or recombinant DNA | 18:31 |
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| cpopell | sup yashgaroth | 18:31 |
| yashgaroth | yo | 18:31 |
| seba--- | i doubt anyone would complicate much for that | 18:31 |
| cpopell | might be employed soon | 18:31 |
| yashgaroth | well, good | 18:31 |
| cpopell | dolla dolla etc. | 18:32 |
| seba--- | some guys are doing biocrap there, i just don't know what exactly hm i've mostly see them doing electrophoresis | 18:33 |
| seba--- | probably because it's slow lol | 18:33 |
| yashgaroth | what methods of purification did you have in mind | 18:33 |
| seba--- | chromatography | 18:33 |
| yashgaroth | well, yes | 18:34 |
| yashgaroth | slightly more specific than that | 18:34 |
| seba--- | i don't know, depends on where i would grow this thing and how hard it will be to isolate | 18:35 |
| seba--- | and in which amounts | 18:35 |
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| seba--- | but i don't really see much problems in that part for now, i see them on how to even get the protein, even in inpure form lol | 18:36 |
| seba--- | it seems that it's hard to get it, so i guess we can give up on this idea | 18:37 |
| seba--- | maybe we can research antibiotics instead | 18:37 |
| seba--- | lol | 18:37 |
| yashgaroth | as long as you're not trying to make something glow, I'm happy | 18:37 |
| seba--- | well this guy is like testing all sorts of inhibitors of various PKs theoretically by simulation | 18:38 |
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| seba--- | and i've said why not also try it experimentally and he was why not, but seems it's too complicated to do these proteins cheaply | 18:39 |
| yashgaroth | if you want to test if the inhibitors actually work, you can't just get a bunch of pure protein + inhibitor and see an effect, you're probably better off using a cancer cell line and applying inhibitors to that | 18:40 |
| seba--- | no no | 18:40 |
| seba--- | the first is better | 18:40 |
| seba--- | we would like to compare the delta-G empirical | 18:41 |
| seba--- | to the simulation derived | 18:41 |
| seba--- | so we can adjust the model structure (activ. loop) better hm | 18:41 |
| seba--- | who sells proteins btw, does sigma have this, i've only bought chemicals lol | 18:42 |
| yashgaroth | sigma has everything, for a price | 18:42 |
| seba--- | is anyone cheaper? | 18:42 |
| seba--- | i know only suppliers for chemicals | 18:42 |
| yashgaroth | random online suppliers, of varying degrees of sketchiness | 18:43 |
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| yashgaroth | a protein like that isn't exactly a big seller, so most places will list some token absurd cost, I recommend just email asking 'how much for a milligram' | 18:44 |
| seba--- | i don't know, this seems to complex now, the plasmid -> gmo bacteria -> buch of bacteria -> purify -> protein, seemed nice and elegant | 18:45 |
| seba--- | this now looks like a mess | 18:45 |
| seba--- | lol | 18:45 |
| yashgaroth | yep that's bio for ya | 18:46 |
| seba--- | basically i would need just the plasmid, some cell lines and maybe some reagents, but we probably have most of them | 18:46 |
| seba--- | like super cheap solution | 18:46 |
| yashgaroth | doesn't your gf have more experience with growing cells, as you mentioned? like did she think bacteria would be fine for this | 18:48 |
| seba--- | yes, no | 18:49 |
| seba--- | she was skeptical | 18:49 |
| seba--- | lol | 18:49 |
| yashgaroth | that's a good sign, trust her instincts | 18:49 |
| seba--- | she's skeptical of all my crazy shit | 18:50 |
| gradstudentbot | I have to read all these articles. | 18:50 |
| seba--- | oh well | 18:53 |
| seba--- | now we can't cure cancer, damn it! | 18:54 |
| yashgaroth | yeah, sorry | 18:54 |
| yashgaroth | considering the hundreds of billions of dollars we've spent so far trying, five thousand would've been a real bargain | 18:56 |
| seba--- | yes, maybe we can get some funding | 18:57 |
| seba--- | but still better to grow this "at home" | 18:57 |
| seba--- | especially if you want to test all the mutations and all that crap :D | 18:58 |
| seba--- | university has lots of manpower for lab slaves | 18:59 |
| yashgaroth | are you gonna pull them out of the pub and bring them home to run your PCR reactions? | 19:00 |
| yashgaroth | ...wait, does that work? | 19:00 |
| seba--- | lol | 19:01 |
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| seba--- | you just give them such projects for BSc thesis | 19:03 |
| seba--- | purification of BRAF protein mutation fjoii2o4jo | 19:03 |
| yashgaroth | I got the fuck out of academia as fast as possible, so I can't say the current best practices for tricking grad students | 19:07 |
| yashgaroth | I hear alcohol helps though | 19:08 |
| yashgaroth | get them drunk, promise them authorship, and they'll be back in a week with two grams of >99% pure | 19:09 |
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| kanzure | gradstudentbot: do you want to coauthor the paper? | 19:16 |
| gradstudentbot | The paper got rejected. | 19:16 |
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| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IEEE_milestones | 20:44 |
| gradstudentbot | May I ask what formula did you use? | 20:47 |
| kanzure | speak & spell is on the list? | 20:47 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=0e486298 Bryan Bishop: another place to get papers >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/articles/ | 20:56 |
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| kanzure | "Hoerni developed a new manufacturing process which relied heavily on the masking and passivating properties of sillicon oxide. Under the mesa process the oxide layer was deposited on after the making of the base in order to mask the emitter diffusion and was later removed. Hoerni grew an oxide layer on top of the wafer at the very beginning of the process and used it to mask both the base and the emitter. More importantly, Hoerni, in a very ... | 20:58 |
| kanzure | ... innovative move, left the oxide layer on top of the wafer after transistor processing. This went against all accepted knowledge in the silicon community: It is widely believed at the time among practitioners of the silicon art that the oxide layer used to mask dopants was dirty and, as a result, had to be etched away. Instead, Hoerni, a self professed "contrarian," left the oxide layer on top of the wafer. He then made the startling ... | 20:58 |
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| kanzure | ... discovery that far from contaminating the wafer, it passivated the crystal's surface and protected the transistor junctions from outside contaminants. Exploiting these basic ideas, Hoerni built his process around seven basic steps." | 20:58 |
| kanzure | yes.. quite the contrarian. | 20:58 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20070509230914/http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/articles/lecuyer/planar.html | 20:58 |
| * kanzure scratches his head | 20:59 | |
| kanzure | so it sounds like the "silicon community" was/is always full of shit, first with "burning" and then with oxide layers? | 21:00 |
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| kanzure | here is some interesting early history about semiconductor manufacturing equipment producing companies http://escholarship.org/uc/item/9dr7q4pr#page-41 | 21:39 |
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| --- Log closed Sun May 25 00:00:15 2014 | ||
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