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| @fenn | http://sun.iwu.edu/~gspaldin/TractorBeam-PRL.pdf | 05:47 |
|---|---|---|
| @fenn | .title http://phys.org/news/2014-05-acoustic-tractor.html | 05:47 |
| yoleaux | Researchers build acoustic tractor beam | 05:47 |
| chris_99 | wasn't there a laser based one too | 05:47 |
| @fenn | are you thinking of "optical tweezers"? | 05:48 |
| chris_99 | ah possibly | 05:48 |
| chris_99 | yes | 05:48 |
| chris_99 | i am | 05:48 |
| @fenn | no, you're right, there is a laser "tractor beam" that came out in 2012 | 05:49 |
| @fenn | .title http://phys.org/news/2012-10-physics-duo-tractor-dual-bessel.html | 05:49 |
| yoleaux | Physics duo create tractor beam using dual Bessel beams | 05:49 |
| chris_99 | what's the difference between optical tweezers | 05:51 |
| chris_99 | and that | 05:51 |
| @fenn | tweezers move left/right, but tractor beam can pull directly towards you | 05:51 |
| chris_99 | according to wiki though 'are scientific instruments that use a highly focused laser beam to provide an attractive or repulsive force' whther that's correct? | 05:52 |
| @fenn | this is talking about moving things around in a layer of water on a microscope slide | 05:54 |
| chris_99 | mm | 05:54 |
| @fenn | oh maybe i am wrong | 05:55 |
| @fenn | "dielectric particles are attracted along the gradient to the region of strongest electric field, which is the center of the beam" | 05:55 |
| dpk | .to kanzure ! | 05:56 |
| yoleaux | dpk: I'll pass your message to kanzure. | 05:56 |
| @fenn | shouldn't that be .tell? | 05:56 |
| chris_99 | yeah that's strange heh | 05:56 |
| @fenn | i guess it does both | 05:56 |
| @fenn | chris_99: the illustration shows a very curved "beam waist" but in reality the waist is much more elongated and there isn't as much force holding the particle at the focal point | 05:58 |
| @fenn | in the vertical axis i mean | 05:59 |
| chris_99 | you're talking about the 'Physics duo create tractor beam using dual Bessel beams' | 05:59 |
| chris_99 | one? | 05:59 |
| @fenn | no i'm just talking about optic tweezers | 05:59 |
| chris_99 | oh | 06:00 |
| @fenn | this picture in particular http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_tweezer#Physics_of_optical_tweezers | 06:00 |
| chris_99 | ah gotcha | 06:00 |
| chris_99 | so are optical tweezers something i could buy off the shelf | 06:01 |
| @fenn | yes | 06:01 |
| dpk | fenn: .to, .tell, and .ask are synonyms | 06:02 |
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| nsh | .splode is a splodonym | 06:10 |
| @fenn | this is a cute infographic http://seba.eu.org/public/netexports.jpg | 06:18 |
| seba- | oh | 06:19 |
| seba- | i'm popular | 06:19 |
| seba- | lol | 06:19 |
| seba- | fenn how the fuck did you find that | 06:19 |
| @fenn | i am just poking around in your public directory | 06:19 |
| seba- | oh ok | 06:19 |
| seba- | lol | 06:19 |
| FourFire | no wine from france? | 06:19 |
| chris_99 | heh | 06:19 |
| FourFire | "Latvia, we have wood, no potatoe" | 06:20 |
| FourFire | "Estland, we sell smartphone" | 06:20 |
| @fenn | i think it's just the top category by dollar value, like israel isnt exactly known for its diamond mines | 06:20 |
| seba- | fenn, http://seba.eu.org/public/netimports.jpg | 06:20 |
| seba- | you have also this | 06:20 |
| @fenn | seba are you a chemistry student or just a hobbyist? | 06:21 |
| FourFire | so cyprus produces semiconductors, and lebanon imports tanks | 06:22 |
| seba- | fenn, first | 06:30 |
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| @fenn | "at least 21,000 metric tons of plastic floating in the eastern pacific" there's clear gold in them thar waters | 06:37 |
| seba- | fenn do you study chemistry? | 06:40 |
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| eudoxia | he's a microbiologist | 06:40 |
| @fenn | pff | 06:40 |
| seba- | nice | 06:41 |
| @fenn | i draw triangles all over your boxes | 06:41 |
| seba- | biohazard ones? | 06:41 |
| @fenn | more like this http://isotruss.info/home.htm or this http://newsoffice.mit.edu/2013/how-to-make-big-things-out-of-small-pieces-0815 | 06:43 |
| superkuh | paperbot: http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/proceeding/aipcp/10.1063/1.1449775 | 06:43 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Design%20and%20analysis%20of%20the%20SAFE-400%20space%20fission%20reactor.txt | 06:43 |
| eudoxia | what was the name of that structure buckminster fuller designed that was a floating sphere? | 06:44 |
| @fenn | cloud nine | 06:44 |
| eudoxia | hm, orion's arm had given it another name | 06:45 |
| eudoxia | fullairs, that's the one | 06:45 |
| eudoxia | fenn: he should have called it 'Fullairene' | 06:46 |
| @fenn | yeah fuller probably would not have named it that | 06:46 |
| seba- | fenn, how do you grow insect tissure cultures | 06:46 |
| @fenn | i have no idea | 06:46 |
| seba- | hm | 06:46 |
| seba- | i need to make BRAF proteins cheaply | 06:46 |
| seba- | lol | 06:46 |
| @fenn | i'd guess you smush a bug and digest it in trypsin for 10 minutes and plate it on polystyrene | 06:47 |
| @fenn | yeast is a lot easier to culture | 06:47 |
| seba- | yes, yeast is easy | 06:47 |
| seba- | i need to cure cancer, it's on my task list | 06:48 |
| @fenn | do you have cancer? | 06:48 |
| seba- | no | 06:48 |
| @fenn | then surely there are more pressing issues, like aging for example | 06:48 |
| seba- | after that i'll make fusion energy | 06:48 |
| seba- | yes | 06:48 |
| seba- | also that | 06:48 |
| seba- | while doing that i'll also develop new antibiotics, to save the world | 06:49 |
| seba- | i'm a superhero | 06:49 |
| @fenn | also there are more people working on cancer, the field is kinda crowded | 06:49 |
| seba- | yes but i'm crazy, they aren't | 06:49 |
| @fenn | i always thought phage therapy never got a fair chance | 06:49 |
| eudoxia | 2067: WHO warns against overuse of bacteriophages | 06:50 |
| @fenn | you know how they use super toxic chemicals to kill cancer, but only release it when near the cancer cell? you could release antibiotics from nanoparticles only in the presence of bacteria | 06:50 |
| seba- | i have a more neat idea | 06:50 |
| @fenn | eudoxia: nah that's the cool thing, they evolve along with the host | 06:50 |
| seba- | fenn, targeting bacteria specific protein kinases, like they're doing on cancer | 06:51 |
| @fenn | why would the bacterium uptake your molecule in the first place? | 06:52 |
| seba- | fenn, apparently PKs are involved also in the process of infection | 06:53 |
| seba- | it's like 2012+ research or some shit hm | 06:53 |
| @fenn | since infection involves replication, everything is involved in "infection" | 06:53 |
| seba- | well i just had this idea on monday | 06:53 |
| seba- | anyway | 06:53 |
| seba- | i'll cure the world | 06:54 |
| seba- | don't worry | 06:54 |
| @fenn | huzzah | 06:54 |
| @fenn | how are you going to defend your newly saved world from supervillains like me | 06:54 |
| seba- | in the worse case, i'll make nanoguns to force bacterias to swallow my compounds | 06:54 |
| @fenn | "not only does Triangle Man hate Particle Man, who is after all just a man doing the things a particle can, but he also hates Person Man, and Person Man already has it rough enough, having been hit in the head with a frying pan and being forced to live in a garbage can." | 06:55 |
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| kanzure | dpk: yes? | 08:27 |
| yoleaux | 12:56Z <dpk> kanzure: ! | 08:27 |
| dpk | kanzure: yo! so, paperbot | 08:30 |
| dpk | what needs doing? | 08:30 |
| dpk | what's the actual (rough) plan? | 08:30 |
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| dpk | if you want me to start porting the zotero translators to be non-Zotero-specific, happy to start doing that | 08:31 |
| dpk | or else investigate the possibility of embedding Zotero in Node | 08:32 |
| kanzure | well, ideally, i don't want to have to maintain zotero/firefox/gecko things for the rest of eternity | 08:35 |
| kanzure | at the same time, i can't muster enough of my attention at the moment to convert all 300 of their translators to some other system | 08:35 |
| dpk | you don't need all 300, though, right? | 08:36 |
| dpk | because not all of them are for sites which keep papers | 08:36 |
| kanzure | heh ok ood point | 08:37 |
| kanzure | *good | 08:37 |
| dpk | quite a lot of them aren't. 3news.co.nz.js, ARTFL Encyclopedie.js, Amazon.com.js, to name the first three i'm sure aren't academic paper repositories | 08:38 |
| dpk | so i'm guessing, then, if you have anything for me to do it will be porting the scrapers off of Zotero, if you don't want to maintain all that shit | 08:41 |
| kanzure | yes the tasks would be highly related to gutting the zotero dependency, but then also probably making some way for zotero to make use of the new stuff, so that their 200,000 users can maintain my stuff for me heh | 08:41 |
| dpk | okay | 08:42 |
| dpk | i'm happy to start working on that/working out the details of that immediately if that's okay? | 08:43 |
| kanzure | you aren't stepping on my toes, go for it | 08:43 |
| dpk | okay | 08:43 |
| kanzure | papermonk was going to be my attempt https://github.com/kanzure/papermonk but i never demoed zotero compatibility | 08:44 |
| kanzure | so it's trashworthy | 08:44 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone | 08:44 |
| kanzure | i was doing streaming html parsing stuff | 08:45 |
| dpk | right, so i see | 08:45 |
| kanzure | streams everywhere | 08:45 |
| kanzure | "Information could be coded into signals and streamed anywhere, given enough energy. Streamed everywhere, this interflow of information. We could speak with the nebular brains of the galaxy. We could extend the galaxy's information ecology. We - every human being, Fravashi, oyster, sentient bacterium, virus, or seal - we could stream our collective consciousness across the two million lightyears of the intergalactic void to the information ... | 08:46 |
| kanzure | ... ecologies of the nearer galaxies, Andromeda and Maffei and the first Leo." | 08:46 |
| kanzure | bad joke | 08:46 |
| dpk | hmm | 08:54 |
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| eudoxia | one of the things i like about both zindell and cordwainer smith are the unexplained references that hint at a much greater universe outside the scope of the stories | 09:02 |
| kanzure | STREAMS | 09:04 |
| kanzure | http://www.dji.com/product/phantom-2-vision-plus | 09:06 |
| kanzure | flying camera quadcopter | 09:06 |
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| delinquentme | Why does chrome slowly sap my machine of memory? | 09:13 |
| delinquentme | Maybe its flash. | 09:13 |
| JayDugger | Maybe chrome extends the galactic information ecology. | 09:15 |
| eudoxia | maybe it's mining 'coins | 09:16 |
| JayDugger | Maybe it's auditing your system for ISO 9001-compliance. | 09:17 |
| JayDugger | So very much ISO. | 09:18 |
| eudoxia | maybe it's punishing me every time i don't use ISO-8601 | 09:18 |
| JayDugger | That can't be it. Everyone knows Creation happened at midnight on 01 Jan 1970 and that expressing it in ISO 8601 involves subtle heresy. | 09:25 |
| kanzure | subtle heresy is our specialty | 09:25 |
| JayDugger | So the number of the beast involves how leap seconds can dance on the head of a pin? | 09:30 |
| JayDugger | (Wait..mixing metaphors?) | 09:30 |
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| @fenn | i'm not a crypto-nerd but this seems like actual news: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/05/truecrypt_wtf.html | 09:34 |
| kanzure | aren't you supposed to be paraonid | 09:34 |
| kanzure | *paranoid | 09:34 |
| @fenn | i gave up paranoia for (soy)lent | 09:35 |
| chris_99 | seems most odd indeed fenn | 09:35 |
| chris_99 | haha | 09:35 |
| @fenn | they're out there, man http://fennetic.net/irc/cia_helicopter.mp4 | 09:36 |
| @fenn | (actually that is probably a navy helicopter, the cia ones are slimmer) | 09:36 |
| chris_99 | lol | 09:37 |
| kanzure | pfft increase paranoia and then get back with me | 09:37 |
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| chris_99 | if i was the cia i'd make the helicopters rainbow coloured and sparkly | 09:37 |
| chris_99 | then noone would worry about them | 09:37 |
| JayDugger | A commonly available vegetable extract, legal in Holland and two American states, will put paranoia back in your soylent. | 09:39 |
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| @fenn | "If I developed a piece of security software, and wanted to cease development, I'd make a similar statement. "Don't use this anymore. It's not maintained, and should therefore be considered insecure". | 09:46 |
| @fenn | Otherwise, if a vulnerability is discovered, everyone will scream: "Fix it now! Nobody told us to stop using it!"" | 09:46 |
| kanzure | wasn't the security audit suspicious or something | 09:48 |
| kanzure | i forget the details | 09:49 |
| kanzure | "audited by my brother" | 09:49 |
| kanzure | //win 3 | 09:50 |
| kanzure | /win 3 | 09:50 |
| kanzure | well i'm out of ideas | 09:50 |
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| @fenn | "audited by the NSA" | 09:51 |
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| @fenn | "One of the most plausible theories is that the TrueCrypt developers found a gaping security hole (ala OpenSSL) and realised that releasing a fix for it would reveal the bug and compromise every TrueCrypt partition in existence, so they chose to kill the project rather than risk the safety of all of that currently encrypted data." | 10:01 |
| @fenn | http://web.archive.org/web/*/truecrypt.org "Sorry. This URL has been excluded from the Wayback Machine." | 10:21 |
| eudoxia | dun dun dun | 10:22 |
| kanzure | Daeken: do you have insider info on that one | 10:29 |
| Daeken | kanzure: i can basically assure you that there is no such stop-the-world bug; if there were, it would've been announced. but that's the most i can say with confidence. | 10:41 |
| kanzure | those are strong words =) | 10:42 |
| @fenn | "there is no such bug" lol | 10:42 |
| @fenn | i dont even know what you guys are talking about | 10:42 |
| eudoxia | god bless this channel | 10:43 |
| kanzure | truecrypt | 10:43 |
| @fenn | "our software has been proven to have no bugs" | 10:43 |
| eudoxia | fenn: zaroo boogs | 10:43 |
| @fenn | that "phantom 2 vision" camera drone has a lot of plastic on it | 10:44 |
| kanzure | that's how you know it's expensive | 10:44 |
| kanzure | hey at least they show the price on the page | 10:44 |
| @fenn | yeah, i know it's expensive by the price tag | 10:45 |
| @fenn | the plastic just says "consumer product" | 10:45 |
| kanzure | maybe the plastic makes wind do something.. probably not. | 10:45 |
| @fenn | no | 10:45 |
| Daeken | fenn: no, i don't think anyone would be silly enough to say that. but 1) who would've found the bug? the stage 1 audit only covered the bootloader, and stage 2 hadn't started yet. 2) even if they had no intention of fixing it, it's likely they would've announced any bug, given precedent. 3) the message in red isn't "this is insecure", it's "this must be assumed to be insecure, as it's no longer in development". | 10:45 |
| Daeken | IMO, nothing changed between two days ago and yesterday, wrt truecrypt's security. it hadn't been updated in two years anyway. | 10:45 |
| kanzure | there was no source code update in two years? | 10:46 |
| @fenn | correct | 10:46 |
| Daeken | whatever their motivation -- whether government pressure, development fatigue, or aliens -- i don't believe that a bug factored into it. | 10:46 |
| Daeken | it just doesn't fit the mold. | 10:47 |
| chris_99 | i don't understand what the 7.2 release is about | 10:47 |
| Daeken | chris_99: it's a migration release. | 10:47 |
| @fenn | there is rampant speculation that the suggestion to use BitLocker was some kind of "tell" indicating the developers were under duress | 10:47 |
| Daeken | fenn: it's possible. it also could be information on the suspected winner of the super bowl next year. | 10:48 |
| kanzure | how would it be that? | 10:48 |
| kanzure | i mean the super bowl one | 10:48 |
| Daeken | kanzure: we have no information for either; can't we just pick and choose when we need evidence? :) | 10:48 |
| @fenn | he's trying to advance some bertrand russell teapot argument | 10:48 |
| kanzure | all i'm saying is you have the opportunity to help my expensive non-existing gambling habit | 10:49 |
| Daeken | haha | 10:49 |
| @fenn | why arent there more coanda effect drones? | 10:50 |
| Daeken | anyway, i don't think any of it matters. truecrypt will be forked (now that the license changed), it'll be maintained, and stage2 of the audit starts soon. | 10:50 |
| Daeken | i've been running my own little audit of some of the code, lately. it's not particularly well-written, but it's pretty sund. | 10:50 |
| Daeken | s/sund/sound/ | 10:50 |
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| @fenn | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YEdHjGMeho | 11:25 |
| yoleaux | Cookie Perfection Machine | 11:25 |
| eudoxia | fenn: i thought it would be a machine that took the cookies that came out fucked up and fixed them | 11:26 |
| * archels pictured a CNC mill before click | 11:27 | |
| kanzure | "The FDA gave pharmaceutical company URL Pharma an exclusive marketing agreement for selling Colcrys in exchange for completing studies on Colcrys and paying the FDA a $45 million application fee. This deal effectively created a patented drug with no generic alternative. Therefore it gave the company a monopoly for the duration of the agreement. URL Pharma immediately raised the price from less than a dime to nearly $5 dollars per pill." | 11:28 |
| @fenn | well somebody's gotta pay that $45million | 11:28 |
| kanzure | "Please note that the following pages contain information on prescription-only drugs. Under British consumer protection law, Fresenius Kabi must not make this information accessible to individuals who are not member of the medical or pharmaceutical professions. Accordingly, we have restricted the access to the following pages and invite you to register for an user-id and a password. We assure you that registrations will be processed as soon ... | 11:30 |
| kanzure | ... as possible. " | 11:30 |
| @fenn | i've often been disappointed with bread makers.. you have to do all the measuring and dispensing yourself instead of just dumping in a whole 50lb bag of flour | 11:30 |
| @fenn | kanzure: wow wtf kind of law is that? | 11:30 |
| kanzure | i can't believe that people fall for the "without the $400M barrier to entry (patents, FDA licensing, etc), nobody will be able to raise enough money to make the xyz".. well duh. how about putting some clever thought into how to do it without spending $400M. | 11:35 |
| kanzure | maybe people are suffering from price envy | 11:36 |
| kanzure | "if the solution doesn't cost a lot, then i'm not interested"? | 11:37 |
| @fenn | shouldn't be that hard to borrow $45M to pay off the FDA | 11:39 |
| @fenn | the real problem is the consumer gets screwed BY THE FDA | 11:39 |
| kanzure | in the context of the FDA, you usually don't borrow money | 11:39 |
| kanzure | (it's just investment assets) | 11:40 |
| kanzure | it's not just the consumer getting screwed, it's also the person making stuff | 11:40 |
| kanzure | "man how am i going to remember so many 12-word brainwallet passphrases?" but wait a sec, been doing that with pokemon since forever, so why not | 11:53 |
| kanzure | cat-on-shoulder-while-biking-guy must be laughin | 11:53 |
| kanzure | *laughing | 11:53 |
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| @fenn | brainwallets with no backups just seems like a really bad idea | 12:03 |
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| kanzure | probably, yes | 12:05 |
| kanzure | i wonder if there are multi-sig brainwallets | 12:05 |
| seba- | ok | 12:24 |
| seba- | testing first cultures | 12:24 |
| seba- | in the incubator | 12:24 |
| seba- | yay | 12:24 |
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| kanzure | where are your samples from? | 12:25 |
| FourFire | seba-, crushed insects? | 12:28 |
| seba- | no, lactobacillus | 12:28 |
| seba- | :D | 12:28 |
| chris_99 | whatcha planning on doing with it | 12:28 |
| FourFire | Oh yeah and I recommend that you focus on aging research over cancer research | 12:28 |
| kanzure | approx. how many cancer deaths could be prevented by whole brain removal? | 12:29 |
| FourFire | there are so many people working on it, and so much funding that it's diminishing returns compared to less focused areas, like gerontology | 12:29 |
| seba- | chris_99, trying to determine if there are any alive cultures in a probiotic | 12:30 |
| seba- | lol | 12:30 |
| FourFire | kanzure, most of the ones which aren't brain cancer and leukemia, i guess | 12:30 |
| chris_99 | aha, do you use some kind of blue dye for that, seba- | 12:30 |
| seba- | no why | 12:31 |
| FourFire | if you had somewhere to put the brains, that is | 12:31 |
| chris_99 | it stains dead cells | 12:31 |
| seba- | chris_99, i'll just grow and count colonies | 12:32 |
| seba- | lol | 12:32 |
| chris_99 | aha | 12:33 |
| kanzure | seba-: you should trick your gf into hanging out in here | 12:33 |
| kanzure | tell her it's educational | 12:33 |
| seba- | why | 12:33 |
| kanzure | and totally not illegal | 12:33 |
| seba- | :p | 12:33 |
| kanzure | because bio people are helpful | 12:33 |
| seba- | lol | 12:34 |
| kanzure | lab trained, right? | 12:34 |
| seba- | what do you mean | 12:36 |
| seba- | she has a MSc in food tech, but her work was on mol. bio mainly, she's considering now a PhD in biotech | 12:36 |
| kanzure | cool | 12:38 |
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| delinquentme | hue. | 13:10 |
| gradstudentbot | I don't think our fume hood is safe. | 13:11 |
| Mokstar | is that because of the pile of dead undergrads nearby? | 13:16 |
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| jrayhawk_ | g | 13:39 |
| jrayhawk_ | whoops | 13:39 |
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| kanzure | "'<redacted> provided me with your name as a person who might be able to help SPARC with a brief document. Over the last few months of meeting with elected officials in Washington, DC, a conversation has emerged between policymakers and advocates (namely SPARC) with regard to the lengths small business, start-ups, recent graduates, etc. have to go to in order to get access to journal articles. Due to the extraordinary high cost of ... | 14:11 |
| kanzure | ... subscriptions and per page charges, they hire college interns, pay students for access and ask around for .pdf copies of the article. Without the information, they are not able to innovate, grow their businesses, etc. We have received some requests to get in writing the lengths that these companies/individuals go to in order to get information because they can't afford to purchase the articles and how it has, in essence, created a 'black ... | 14:11 |
| kanzure | ... market for scholarly journals'. Graham -- does this seem like something you would you be able to do?' " | 14:11 |
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| @fenn | OMG CENSORSHIPBBQ | 14:12 |
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| kanzure | yeah i am not sure i understand this email | 14:13 |
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| kanzure | someone is reporting to the open-science mailing list that.. someone sent him this quote.. that someone was invited to washington.. about something? | 14:13 |
| kanzure | like who the fuck cares? | 14:13 |
| @fenn | they want to say "look at all the silly shit we have to do to get paperz" and get congressmen outraged, because "innovation" or something is more important than science | 14:13 |
| @fenn | jobs jobs jobs | 14:14 |
| kanzure | but SPARC is a publisher | 14:14 |
| @fenn | .wik SPARC | 14:14 |
| yoleaux | "SPARC (from "scalable processor architecture") is a RISC instruction set architecture (ISA) developed by Sun Microsystems and introduced in mid-1987." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARC | 14:14 |
| kanzure | the other SPARC | 14:14 |
| @fenn | i dont know this other | 14:14 |
| kanzure | http://www.sparc.arl.org/ | 14:14 |
| kanzure | oh hm | 14:15 |
| @fenn | an international alliance of academic and research libraries working to create a more open system of scholarly communication. The Scholarly Publishing and Academic Resources Coalition (SPARC) | 14:15 |
| kanzure | could mean anything :p | 14:15 |
| @fenn | yay doublespeak | 14:15 |
| @fenn | maybe we should name activist organizations "Nazi Sympathizers for a more Fascist State Dystopia" | 14:15 |
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| @fenn | ugh too many acronyms colliding here | 14:17 |
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| kanzure | "international alliance" "we send emails to each other sometimes, maybe" | 14:20 |
| @fenn | so is SPARC the "union of libraries" i was ranting about? their "reasons for membership" looks incredibly wussy | 14:21 |
| @fenn | "engage effectively with others on campus"? wtf | 14:21 |
| @fenn | i'm reading this as "how to placate hippies" | 14:21 |
| kanzure | i don't think a union would be able to make much of an impact these days because all of the lock-up decisions were already made | 14:21 |
| @fenn | 100 universities threatening to boycott your journals would make a publisher think twice about raising rates | 14:22 |
| kanzure | and now there are lots of inertial reasons that "altmetrics" haven't caught on yet | 14:22 |
| @fenn | http://sparc.arl.org/membership/current-members | 14:22 |
| kanzure | ugh we should find a library nerd | 14:23 |
| kanzure | dpk: do you know someone in #code4lib that would be appropriate | 14:23 |
| kanzure | joepie91__: or you | 14:24 |
| @fenn | 186 universities on that list | 14:25 |
| * joepie91__ spontaneously combusts | 14:25 | |
| joepie91__ | sorry, what was the question? | 14:25 |
| @fenn | someone to testify to congress about how they steal papers? | 14:26 |
| kanzure | no, an irc librarian junkie that can explain to us why they roll over for all the publishers | 14:26 |
| joepie91__ | um | 14:26 |
| * joepie91__ thinks | 14:26 | |
| @fenn | flunkie* | 14:26 |
| kanzure | preferably someone that helps run an academic library somewhere that pays subscriptions | 14:26 |
| kanzure | yeah, a flunkie would be great | 14:26 |
| joepie91__ | damnit, I actually know somebody like that, but I can't for the life of me recall his name | 14:26 |
| joepie91__ | well, kind of like that | 14:26 |
| joepie91__ | he can do the explaining part | 14:26 |
| joepie91__ | but... argh | 14:27 |
| * joepie91__ hates his memory sometimes | 14:27 | |
| @fenn | try piracetam | 14:27 |
| @fenn | 5 grams a day | 14:27 |
| @fenn | oh it's like illegal in europe isn't it | 14:27 |
| joepie91__ | kanzure: I don't think I;m going to recall this name; you can try spamming #archiveteam-bs | 14:28 |
| joepie91__ | I'd wager there's somebody there who might have a lead | 14:28 |
| joepie91__ | fenn: my memory problems aren't of a memory-failing nature, really - I've just optimized my memory to remember stuff that isn't names and other 'loose' data | 14:28 |
| @fenn | BANNED by the .nl equivalent of the FDA | 14:29 |
| joepie91__ | which works great... most of the time | 14:29 |
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| @fenn | joepie91__: what's the square root of 2? | 14:30 |
| joepie91__ | 1.something, no? | 14:30 |
| * joepie91__ is not a maths person | 14:30 | |
| @fenn | eh. you get a C for effort | 14:30 |
| joepie91__ | that's better than a C++ anyway | 14:31 |
| joepie91__ | :) | 14:31 |
| @fenn | here's a steaming cup of java for your efforts | 14:32 |
| @fenn | s/cup/pile/ | 14:32 |
| pasky | paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=321884 | 14:32 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1145%2F321879.321884 | 14:32 |
| joepie91__ | fenn: uncertain at this point whether you are refering to the coffee (good) or platform (bad) | 14:33 |
| gradstudentbot | My study reveals that people are awesome at memorizing insecure passwords. | 14:36 |
| @fenn | "it's as if you took a really nice gourmet meal and a pile of dog shit and blended it up so thoroughly that you couldn't discern the good from the bad" | 14:36 |
| @fenn | what is this quote from? i think it's douglas hofstadter reviewing "the singularity is near" | 14:38 |
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| @fenn | from http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/douglas-r-hofstadter "f you read Ray Kurzweil's books and Hans Moravec's, what I find is that it's a very bizarre mixture of ideas that are solid and good with ideas that are crazy. It's as if you took a lot of very good food and some dog excrement and blended it all up so that you can't possibly figure out what's good or bad. It's an intimate | 14:41 |
| @fenn | mixture of rubbish and good ideas, and it's very hard to disentangle the two, because these are smart people; they're not stupid." | 14:41 |
| kanzure | ray kurzweil was just monetizing the private extropians mailing list. naturally, he couldn't find any editors that were capable of sorting out the good from the bad because none of his editors had access to the original source. | 14:42 |
| kanzure | also hans moravec was on that mailing list back in the day | 14:42 |
| @fenn | do you have any copies of this "private" extropians list? | 14:42 |
| kanzure | all of the ideas are really coming from like 3-4 people that nobody will name because they are gay | 14:42 |
| kanzure | *they are being gay | 14:43 |
| @fenn | huh | 14:43 |
| kanzure | well it's like any other community, power law distribution, someone writes 100000 emails, the rest write 2-10 | 14:43 |
| @fenn | well sure, but why not credit the original author | 14:43 |
| kanzure | i don't have copies of of 198x-1993 | 14:43 |
| kanzure | because "privacy" | 14:43 |
| @fenn | why was it a private list? | 14:44 |
| @fenn | and what does that mean anyway? | 14:44 |
| kanzure | "because how else are we going to get marvin minsky and hans moravec to participate? it's a pay-to-play private invite-only mailing list, so you should obviously accept our humblest invitation blah blah blah" | 14:44 |
| @fenn | sure i have been on lists like that and it never seems to be worth keeping private | 14:45 |
| kanzure | this is why venor vinge appeared to have popped out of nowhere with fully-formed ideas heh | 14:45 |
| @fenn | O RLY | 14:45 |
| kanzure | well, it was also partly "the great internet rush to get everything written down in electronic form" that eventually calmed down | 14:45 |
| @fenn | maybe geoffrey landis has copies | 14:45 |
| kanzure | i asked richard stallman once and he pointed me to someone who now works at google and ignored me | 14:46 |
| kanzure | for some reason it was hosted on gnu servers or something | 14:46 |
| kanzure | anyway here's some crap i dug up http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/extropians/ | 14:46 |
| kanzure | "118002 messages sorted by: [ author ] [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ attachment ]" ugh | 14:47 |
| @fenn | what does max more say? | 14:47 |
| kanzure | back in 2010 he gave me access to his house (often) and i raided him and took everything he has, he doesn't have anything else | 14:47 |
| kanzure | or maybe 2011. hrm. | 14:48 |
| kanzure | lots and lots of floppy disks | 14:48 |
| kanzure | none of it has the private stuff | 14:48 |
| @fenn | extropian tomb raider :P | 14:49 |
| @fenn | uncover the secrets of the lost arc! | 14:49 |
| kanzure | the farther back in time you go the more interesting the content | 14:49 |
| kanzure | it is a very weird anomaly | 14:49 |
| @fenn | certainly it dates to the 1969 singularity | 14:49 |
| @fenn | an inverse time-like machine elf intelligence | 14:50 |
| @fenn | we should have a terrence mckenna markov chain bot | 14:50 |
| kanzure | huh, wikipedia says "Sociologist James Hughes is the most militant critic of libertarian transhumanism" now i have evidence, it says so right here in the superbook | 14:52 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_transhumanism | 14:53 |
| kanzure | anywho, the extropians mailing list back then was strongly based on libertarian philosophy stuff that max more was spinning | 14:53 |
| kanzure | which phil and others have mentioned to me as the reason for why it was a pay-to-play operation (but i dunno if i buy that) | 14:53 |
| @fenn | a pay for access mailing list running on gnu servers? | 14:54 |
| @fenn | that right there is a significant accomplishment | 14:54 |
| kanzure | well open source institute was funded by foresight institute, the world is stranger than i can explain | 14:54 |
| @fenn | wow there's a whole series on wikipedia | 14:55 |
| @fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Transhumanism | 14:55 |
| kanzure | the irony of that, plus the irony of extropians originally hanging out around GNU nerds, makes it hard to believe how so few transhumanists are at all bedazzled by open source software as a mode of production of their technologies | 14:56 |
| @fenn | i'm not sure what you're saying by that | 14:56 |
| kanzure | it is ironic that nobody knew what gnu was | 14:57 |
| kanzure | you would think the gnu people would have hit them over the head with a clue stick | 14:57 |
| kanzure | since they do that to everyone else anyway | 14:57 |
| @fenn | i'm sure they ran a lot of mailing lists on that server | 14:57 |
| kanzure | writing emails is the wrong idea anyway, blah | 14:58 |
| kanzure | vernor vinge's supercivilization thing spanned 20 light years for the sole purpose of writing intergalactic electronic mail and navelgazing | 14:58 |
| @fenn | streams, man | 14:59 |
| @fenn | duuude | 14:59 |
| @fenn | aliens could be emailing us right now | 14:59 |
| kanzure | brainwallets | 14:59 |
| @fenn | think of all the intergalactic spam we could be getting | 15:00 |
| kanzure | SETI is just trying to find the signal among the spam | 15:01 |
| @fenn | "greetings earthling, i am the royal heir to abujamalaka abukweilin, regent of the mists. i have in my possession 30,000,000 proto sentient algorithms, and need your assistance to expatriate them" | 15:01 |
| kanzure | nobody really liked my "remove the technology component from patents" idea | 15:04 |
| @fenn | i love how the "Criticisms" section of "Libertarian Transhumanism" is longer than the rest of the article | 15:06 |
| kanzure | the transhumanism articles have long been trolled by some guy named Lsomething on wikipedia | 15:06 |
| kanzure | so he's written his influence into basically everything | 15:06 |
| kanzure | this has been going on since about 2007 | 15:06 |
| @fenn | Luddite? | 15:06 |
| kanzure | no | 15:06 |
| kanzure | has an o in it | 15:06 |
| @fenn | Loser? | 15:06 |
| gradstudentbot | The protocol is wrong. | 15:07 |
| kanzure | loremaster | 15:08 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/Loremaster&offset=&limit=500&target=Loremaster | 15:08 |
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| @fenn | well obviously the CIA mind control program is simply an extension of the illuminati transhumanist conspiracy | 15:13 |
| kanzure | natasha once called me up to complain about loremaster reverting her edits (he's reverted some of mine too, but he had good reason in my case) | 15:15 |
| kanzure | this is all boring | 15:19 |
| @fenn | "since biotechnology increasingly allows humans to control their own evolution, it may allow humans to alter human nature, thereby putting liberal democracy at risk" OH NOES | 15:21 |
| @fenn | not liberal democracy! | 15:21 |
| kanzure | boring | 15:21 |
| kanzure | blargh well here's a reason to finally learn me some haskell https://github.com/dogestreet/proxypool | 15:22 |
| @fenn | why do you care about dogecoin? | 15:24 |
| kanzure | i care about stratum | 15:24 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/slush0/stratum-mining | 15:25 |
| @fenn | all this stuff appeared during the year that i was asleep, but i probably wouldn't have learned about it anywaay | 15:25 |
| kanzure | it's the closest thing to finding alien technology that you can get access to | 15:26 |
| @fenn | but it doesn't do anything that i want | 15:26 |
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| @fenn | its like alien porn | 15:26 |
| @fenn | look at the tentacles on that puppy | 15:27 |
| kanzure | you may be interested in looking at opentransactions or ripple | 15:28 |
| @fenn | not right now | 15:29 |
| kanzure | opentransactions doesn't do mining | 15:29 |
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| @fenn | ugh that transhumanism article gave me a headache | 15:36 |
| poppingtonic | which one? | 15:40 |
| poppingtonic | There are so many these days I can't even | 15:40 |
| justanotheruser | poppingtonic: the one posted on reddit | 15:44 |
| @fenn | wtf who are you people | 15:46 |
| @fenn | i was talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism | 15:47 |
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| poppingtonic | "Epic of Gilgamesh" -> "Mundane of Gilgamesh" | 15:52 |
| poppingtonic | use Downworthy, people. | 15:52 |
| poppingtonic | fenn: how come? | 15:53 |
| @fenn | now The Onion can retire | 15:53 |
| @fenn | poppingtonic: not important, nevermind, go do something useful please | 15:54 |
| poppingtonic | okdk | 15:55 |
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| kanzure | fenn, wait why did you read it | 16:04 |
| @fenn | i am weak | 16:05 |
| kanzure | do you mean tired | 16:06 |
| @fenn | no, i mean i've had "run brl-cad" as my goal for three days now and failed to even start on it | 16:07 |
| kanzure | why were you going to run brlcad? | 16:07 |
| @fenn | because i forget what it is like | 16:07 |
| @fenn | i have a cad project i want to sketch out | 16:08 |
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| kanzure | solidworks has completely corrupted me. the lack of sketching in brlcad is a real problem. it would be better if 'extrude an imported sketch' was a feature but it's not. | 16:08 |
| kanzure | i don't often think of mechanical things as the intersection of a rhombus and an intractazoid, but rather "the revolution of a curve that roughly looks like this" | 16:09 |
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| kanzure | there could be a brlcad irc bot that accepts csg operations and renders the result to image. each image would have an id corresponding to state, and you type the id when you manipulate the state. | 16:16 |
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| @fenn | pretty sure you can extrude things in brlcad | 16:24 |
| @fenn | i remember extruding an imported DXF because i hated the built-in sketch editor | 16:27 |
| kanzure | there's no mk_extrude function | 16:27 |
| kanzure | and i couldn't get < brlcad> to figure me out a way to use 'extrude' at the prompt for sketches... | 16:27 |
| kanzure | ("oh, you might have to implement that yourself") | 16:27 |
| kanzure | (well that's cool, but, how the hell is anyone else using this) | 16:28 |
| @fenn | unfortunately all the documentation is in PDF format | 16:28 |
| @fenn | hmm i want to make something similar to that "tire" script http://brlcad.org/w/images/4/4f/Vehicle_Tire_and_Wheel_Creation_in_BRL-CAD.pdf | 16:30 |
| kanzure | it's curious that tcl is also heavily integrated into opencascade | 16:30 |
| kanzure | tcl must have been the bee's knees for cad people that hated lisp | 16:30 |
| kanzure | blah that's a tire command | 16:31 |
| kanzure | kanzure@rightnow$ which tire | 16:31 |
| kanzure | /usr/brlcad/bin/tire | 16:31 |
| kanzure | why do i have this | 16:31 |
| @fenn | it seems strange that there is documentation for the command but no explanation of how it was made or what it does exactly | 16:32 |
| @fenn | "a wild tire appears!" | 16:32 |
| kanzure | obv. an internal project | 16:33 |
| @fenn | says it uses torus, cylinder, cone, and "sketch and extrude primitives" | 16:34 |
| @fenn | for the tread | 16:34 |
| kanzure | ./src/archer/plugins/Wizards/tirewizard.tcl | 16:35 |
| kanzure | ./src/archer/plugins/Wizards/tirewizard/TireWizard.tcl | 16:35 |
| kanzure | ./src/shapes/tire.c ./src/libged/tire.c dunno which one | 16:35 |
| kanzure | ./src/libged/tire.c is 2122 lines.. | 16:36 |
| @fenn | oh yeah this is great syntax: in cube.s arb8 5 5 0 8 5 0 8 5 3 5 5 3 5 8 0 8 8 0 8 8 3 5 8 3 | 16:36 |
| @fenn | jesus christ | 16:36 |
| kanzure | "MakeTire is the "top level" tire generation function - it is responsible for managing the matrices" | 16:36 |
| @fenn | that is supposed to be the second thing a newbie types in? | 16:37 |
| @fenn | http://brlcad.org/xref/source/src/archer/plugins/Wizards/ presumably one can add more scripts as desired | 16:39 |
| @fenn | i think the tcl stuff is just the GUI that calls the tire command | 16:40 |
| @fenn | which is compiled from tire.c | 16:40 |
| kanzure | oops, sorry i was trying to tell you that | 16:41 |
| kanzure | by the whole 2122 lines comment thing | 16:41 |
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| @fenn | that's unfortunate. you shouldn't have to write C to do what is obviously a scripting operation | 16:42 |
| @fenn | ok this is totally ridiculous | 16:43 |
| @fenn | well anyway libged/tire.c calls MakeExtrude | 16:45 |
| @fenn | "Extrusion Creation Routines for Tire Tread Patterns - makes sketch and uses sketch to make extrusion" | 16:45 |
| kanzure | MakeExtrude is defined in tire.c | 16:46 |
| @fenn | :( | 16:46 |
| kanzure | /* Make first slanted extrusion for depth vs. width of tread effect */ | 16:46 |
| kanzure | mk_extrusion(file, bu_vls_addr(&str2), bu_vls_addr(&str), V, h, u_vec, v_vec, 0); | 16:46 |
| @fenn | my GSoC contribution is to copypaste MakeExtrude | 16:46 |
| kanzure | it is tire-specific | 16:47 |
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| @fenn | is mk_extrusion not what you want? | 16:48 |
| gradstudentbot | I had to remind my professor who I was today. | 16:48 |
| kanzure | i forget | 16:49 |
| @fenn | hmm. "extruded bitmap primitive" | 16:56 |
| kanzure | not promising | 16:58 |
| @fenn | maybe i am remembering openscad | 16:59 |
| @fenn | "BRLCAD works fine with Qcad's .dxf file.we can extrude and revolve .dxf file in BRLCAD" | 17:00 |
| kanzure | btw, pythonocc works with opencascade-community-edition just fine | 17:01 |
| kanzure | (i mean, when compiled with those headers, not mismatching etc) | 17:02 |
| @fenn | this seems to imply that extruding a dxf should work (mailing list post by sean morrison) http://brl-cad.996283.n3.nabble.com/Making-cog-wheel-in-BRL-CAD-A-small-correction-td9694.html | 17:03 |
| @fenn | i'm not sure what all the patch stuff is about | 17:04 |
| kanzure | i wasn't extruding a dxf, just trying to extrude a sketch i made in their terrible sketchterface | 17:06 |
| @fenn | In BRL-CAD is not such shape out there, right? | 17:06 |
| @fenn | Not as an implicit object, but you could describe one with NURBS surfaces, sketch+extrude objects, and volumetric or extruded bitmap geometry (albeit aliased). | 17:06 |
| @fenn | yeah he says the sketch interface sucks | 17:06 |
| @fenn | The GUI sketch editor in mged isn't the easiest to use but does work. You have to select the "create" button for every arc, curve, line you indend to create. The status line should give some basic instructions on how to use it. Alternatively, you could use a 2D editor like qcad to make your dxf, then import that as a sketch into BRL-CAD. | 17:07 |
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| kanzure | well, whatever, i think the openscad people are also importing dxf sketches | 17:09 |
| kanzure | i suppose i should add some helper methods for that to python-brlcad | 17:09 |
| kanzure | and get rid of the stupid wdb-file-only stuff (it should be in-memory wdb stuff that gets dumped to file-wdb when the user asks, not for every operation...) | 17:09 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, have you looked into any of the positions @ autocad for these bio applications? | 17:22 |
| delinquentme | like working alongside andrew hessell ? | 17:22 |
| kanzure | nope | 17:26 |
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| kanzure | "I originally designed Stratum protocol for lightweight Bitcoin client called Electrum. Later I found out that protocol requirements are quite similar to requirements for bitcoin mining, so I decided to reuse it as-is." | 18:11 |
| kanzure | oh, that explains a lot | 18:11 |
| joepie91__ | LOL | 18:13 |
| joepie91__ | my archive.org upload of the PPcoin paper | 18:13 |
| joepie91__ | is mentioned in the Cornell paper about that attack on the Bitcoin network | 18:13 |
| joepie91__ | I'm not sure how that happened, did the original vanish or something? | 18:13 |
| kanzure | yikes | 18:16 |
| kanzure | also, it is nice to have fast service :) https://github.com/CaptEmulation/stratum-proxy/issues/1 | 18:16 |
| joepie91__ | apparently the original -did- vanish | 18:17 |
| * joepie91__ adds another strike to his tally-keeping board of archived things that turned out to be necessary within his lifetime | 18:17 | |
| joepie91__ | kanzure: indeed, I've had a similar fast-reply experience with brackets-git and pdf.js | 18:18 |
| joepie91__ | it's really quite pleasant :D | 18:18 |
| kanzure | ARCHIVE EVERYTHING | 18:18 |
| @fenn | so how does this WARC thing work | 18:19 |
| kanzure | the stratum protocol specification was in a google docs link somewhere, but nobody has the google docs link anymore | 18:19 |
| kanzure | rescued to http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/ a few minutes ago | 18:19 |
| joepie91__ | kanzure: relatedly, it looks like a lot of people lost the manual for their shredder: https://archive.org/details/UnitedOfficeUAV380A1Manual | 18:20 |
| joepie91__ | (Downloads: 201) | 18:20 |
| kanzure | download counters can be inflated due to search engines | 18:20 |
| joepie91__ | kanzure: I know, but 1. afaik archive.org ignores bots, and 2. it's only inflated for a few items, not for all of my items | 18:21 |
| joepie91__ | which leads me to presume that these are actual humans | 18:21 |
| joepie91__ | or at least life-like bots | 18:21 |
| kanzure | it is very hard to stay ahead of the wave of bots | 18:21 |
| kanzure | but the irony of shredding the manual as your first task is not lost on me | 18:21 |
| joepie91__ | hahaha | 18:21 |
| joepie91__ | well that explains everything :P | 18:21 |
| kanzure | well doesn't it? | 18:21 |
| joepie91__ | "well, let's see if this thing wor- eh, right, okay, it does... um..." | 18:21 |
| @fenn | http://www.collection.archivist.info has quite a lot of old equipment manuals | 18:22 |
| joepie91__ | this is the list I'm going by, btw: https://archive.org/search.php?query=uploader%3A%22admin%40cryto.net%22%20AND%20mediatype%3Atexts&sort=-downloads | 18:22 |
| joepie91__ | for the download counts | 18:22 |
| joepie91__ | fenn: bookmarked for future archival/mirroring | 18:22 |
| @fenn | you may wish to ask archivist (here on freenode) first | 18:22 |
| kanzure | i should get #archiveteam people to grab a copy of all the soviet patents | 18:23 |
| @fenn | indeed, i don't trust that site to stay alive | 18:24 |
| joepie91__ | fenn: failing to locate download button | 18:24 |
| joepie91__ | also, asking? that's a thing? :o | 18:24 |
| @fenn | oh sorry this must be a paper catalog | 18:24 |
| @fenn | of dead trees | 18:24 |
| joepie91__ | it appears to be just a catalog, yeah | 18:25 |
| @fenn | or might not be available for download due to bandwidth constraints | 18:25 |
| joepie91__ | that's where archive.org would hlp | 18:25 |
| joepie91__ | help * | 18:25 |
| joepie91__ | free bandwidht :D | 18:25 |
| joepie91__ | minus spurious 't' | 18:25 |
| joepie91__ | okay | 18:26 |
| joepie91__ | so | 18:26 |
| joepie91__ | fenn: you asked about WARC, what specifically is your questiton | 18:26 |
| * joepie91__ realizes he is neglecting backlog | 18:26 | |
| @fenn | i have a lot of wget -rk -np mirrors for personal use | 18:26 |
| @fenn | i don't really know what archive.org considers useful | 18:27 |
| @fenn | there are sites like patentdb.su for example that would be good to preserve in toto | 18:27 |
| @fenn | i mean 100% crawling | 18:27 |
| kanzure | mitmproxy also has a custom archiving format | 18:28 |
| joepie91__ | basically, if you archive a website, always use --warc-file, it's in upstream wget nowadays | 18:28 |
| @fenn | archive.org doesn't have the personnel resources to determine what is worth crawling, so presumably people should be able to crawl and submit their data | 18:28 |
| joepie91__ | even on Debian iirc | 18:28 |
| joepie91__ | yes-ish | 18:28 |
| joepie91__ | okay, so | 18:29 |
| joepie91__ | how it works in a few concise points: | 18:29 |
| joepie91__ | for crawled data to be ingested into the wayback machine, it MUST be in WARC format | 18:29 |
| joepie91__ | no other formats are supported | 18:29 |
| @fenn | how do i see what's inside a WARC file? normally i can just look at the files to see if they have been downloaded | 18:29 |
| joepie91__ | uploaded WARCs are not automatically added to the wayback, but if you've uploaded one or more and you poke jason scott / sketchcow, he'll add them for you | 18:29 |
| joepie91__ | there's a basic warc viewer | 18:29 |
| joepie91__ | but you can also just open it in a text editor | 18:30 |
| joepie91__ | (you'll want to de-gzip first) | 18:30 |
| @fenn | but it's probably not text | 18:30 |
| joepie91__ | it's a text-based format | 18:30 |
| @fenn | so how is a jpeg stored in a text file? | 18:30 |
| joepie91__ | I -think-, from memory, that it takes an approach like PDF | 18:30 |
| joepie91__ | where the format itself is text | 18:30 |
| joepie91__ | but can contain binary streams | 18:30 |
| joepie91__ | if you want to look at the contents more in-depth, you could use a warc viewer | 18:31 |
| joepie91__ | or set up warc proxy | 18:31 |
| @fenn | how can i verify that the WARC contains what i expect it to? | 18:31 |
| joepie91__ | aside from looking at the wget log, use warc viewer or warc proxy | 18:31 |
| joepie91__ | moment, hitting swap | 18:31 |
| @fenn | heh | 18:32 |
| joepie91__ | oh | 18:32 |
| @fenn | i just got some super-ultra-high-speed flash memory sticks to extend my swap space | 18:32 |
| joepie91__ | apparently somebody went through the efforts to compile an overview of the WARC ecosystem, so I don't have to | 18:32 |
| joepie91__ | awesome | 18:32 |
| joepie91__ | http://www.archiveteam.org/index.php?title=The_WARC_Ecosystem | 18:32 |
| joepie91__ | theres another experimental WARC viewer | 18:33 |
| joepie91__ | stand-alone | 18:33 |
| joepie91__ | but I can't find it off-hand | 18:33 |
| @fenn | .g citogenesis | 18:33 |
| yoleaux | http://xkcd.com/978/ | 18:33 |
| joepie91__ | oh, there we go | 18:34 |
| joepie91__ | fenn: https://github.com/odie5533/WarcQtViewer | 18:34 |
| joepie91__ | (despite appearances, it's theoretically cross-platform) | 18:34 |
| joepie91__ | as an archivist, you're generally fine with adding --warc-file=something to your wget flags and optionally verifying with warcproxy | 18:36 |
| joepie91__ | just upload to IA, bother jason scott, and all should be fine | 18:36 |
| @fenn | the "proxy" looks useful | 18:36 |
| joepie91__ | also | 18:36 |
| joepie91__ | [03:27] <@fenn> i don't really know what archive.org considers useful | 18:36 |
| joepie91__ | anything and everything | 18:36 |
| joepie91__ | pretty much | 18:36 |
| @fenn | is there a plan for how to deal with content that is only accessible by javascript? | 18:37 |
| joepie91__ | idea being that right now you don't really know what's going to be useful/missed in the future, so you might as well grab it all | 18:37 |
| joepie91__ | uhm, yes and no | 18:37 |
| @fenn | i realize it's a difficult conceptual problem | 18:37 |
| joepie91__ | heritrix is somewhat okay at dealing with javascript, better than wget anyway (iirc) | 18:37 |
| joepie91__ | other than that, archiveteam tends to write custom scraper pipelines to deal with JS-heavy sites | 18:37 |
| joepie91__ | when they're archived because of a shutdown | 18:37 |
| @fenn | what about WARC files that ignore robots.txt? | 18:40 |
| kanzure | i use a custom webkit thing for js stuff when i don't want to reverse engineer the website | 18:41 |
| joepie91__ | fenn: there's an ignore robots flag for wget | 18:41 |
| joepie91__ | I use it by default | 18:42 |
| kanzure | sometimes that's phantomjs but often now it's just python + webkit https://gist.github.com/kanzure/6581415 | 18:42 |
| @fenn | right, but does archive.org accept them | 18:42 |
| joepie91__ | sure | 18:42 |
| joepie91__ | wayback won't show stuff protected by a robots.txt... but seeing as domains tend to expire, that eventually solves itself | 18:42 |
| @fenn | i see | 18:42 |
| joepie91__ | and the WARC is always downloadable | 18:42 |
| kanzure | hmm i thought it was robots.txt at the time of crawling | 18:42 |
| joepie91__ | kanzure: crawling time robots.txt behaviour is hit-or-miss | 18:42 |
| joepie91__ | I think it depends on whether it was crawled without robots.txt before | 18:43 |
| joepie91__ | but I'm not sure | 18:43 |
| joepie91__ | and I'm not sure anybody knows the criteria | 18:43 |
| joepie91__ | lol | 18:43 |
| joepie91__ | I just know that if you submit a WARC that ignores robots.txt, it'll start showing up when the robots.txt is gone | 18:43 |
| kanzure | say it was crawled, no robots.txt, some asshole updates the site adds robots.txt (or buys the domain); can the robots.txt in the future make the old content available | 18:43 |
| joepie91__ | the robots.txt in the future can make the old content unavailable | 18:44 |
| joepie91__ | or available | 18:44 |
| kanzure | both? | 18:44 |
| joepie91__ | it always polls current robots.txt | 18:44 |
| kanzure | hm i see | 18:44 |
| joepie91__ | so whatever current robots.txt says, goes | 18:44 |
| @fenn | that's kinda nonsensical | 18:44 |
| kanzure | that's great (and also shit) | 18:44 |
| joepie91__ | fenn: it is | 18:44 |
| joepie91__ | :P | 18:44 |
| kanzure | but at least it means old stuff can be eventually dumped | 18:44 |
| gradstudentbot | Dude, you contaminated my experiment. | 18:44 |
| joepie91__ | no data is ever deleted, though | 18:44 |
| @fenn | where is all this stored anyway? only in san francisco? or is it replicated? | 18:45 |
| joepie91__ | fenn: primary storage in SF, partial mirrors in Amsterdam and Egypt | 18:45 |
| joepie91__ | Egypt mirror being wherever new lib of alexandria is | 18:46 |
| joepie91__ | so yeah, all of it in disaster zones basically | 18:46 |
| kanzure | there is a library of alexandria 2? | 18:46 |
| joepie91__ | :P | 18:46 |
| joepie91__ | apparently | 18:46 |
| kanzure | i'm sure it's DRMed or some shit | 18:46 |
| kanzure | fucking librarians | 18:46 |
| * fenn mumbles something about fortress of solitude in antarctica | 18:46 | |
| joepie91__ | fenn: heh. | 18:47 |
| joepie91__ | guess what the usual drop server is named | 18:47 |
| joepie91__ | for archiveteam stuff | 18:47 |
| @fenn | svalbard seed bank is a great idea except for the seeds | 18:47 |
| joepie91__ | (fos.textfiles.com) | 18:48 |
| @fenn | weird file extensions on these old text files http://textfiles.com/100/ | 18:51 |
| joepie91__ | fenn: that's HISTORY you're looking at! HISTORY! in FILE EXTENSIONS! | 18:51 |
| @fenn | it's like how people used to spell words however they liked | 18:51 |
| joepie91__ | wrods | 18:52 |
| @fenn | 'ye grande treatise onne opticks' | 18:52 |
| gradstudentbot | Still haven't cured cancer. | 18:53 |
| kanzure | i think the reason why that robots.txt policy is in place is because everyone demands that they remove content from the wayback archives, or make it inaccessible, | 19:03 |
| kanzure | and then they never check if their site disappearing changes that | 19:03 |
| kanzure | so as a result they only exert a legal pressure on censoring content, until they stop caring / die, etc. | 19:04 |
| @fenn | sounds fine to me | 19:04 |
| @fenn | i'm more concerned with x.com goes down, fanatic buys domain name and changes robots.txt to exclude all urls from wayback machine | 19:04 |
| kanzure | dunno why you care that much about paypal | 19:05 |
| @fenn | not literally x.com | 19:05 |
| @fenn | let's say lucifer.com for example | 19:05 |
| kanzure | for how rickety that server is, it's been around forever and david doesn't seem to let it die | 19:06 |
| @fenn | now all of a sudden you can't access archives of wta-talk or whatever | 19:06 |
| kanzure | not a big loss | 19:08 |
| @fenn | man that NASA NTRS thing really chaps my ass | 19:08 |
| @fenn | they removed so much stuff that was completely harmless | 19:09 |
| kanzure | oh yeah | 19:09 |
| @fenn | the one thing a library is supposed to do is NOT DELETE DATA | 19:09 |
| superkuh | BlackPhoenix has the most complete mirror of it that I am aware of. | 19:10 |
| superkuh | (here on freenode) | 19:10 |
| @fenn | i remember him, smart guy | 19:11 |
| joepie91__ | (archive ALL the things) | 19:11 |
| @fenn | joepie91__: everyone can't archive everything, you'll end up with infinite regress, but before that it's o(n^2) | 19:12 |
| joepie91__ | fenn: stop it, you're breaking my brain :( | 19:12 |
| @fenn | all i'm saying is we need libraries | 19:12 |
| @fenn | ah yes, ukraine, the best place to preserve NASA's digital heritage | 19:14 |
| @fenn | where is freenet when you need it | 19:14 |
| joepie91__ | fenn: where it usually is; somewhere inbetween "it probably exists, somewhere" and "oh there it is" | 19:16 |
| @fenn | joepie91__: if blackphoenix comes through with teh reportz would archive be able/willing to host them? (supposedly they were removed because of possible ITAR violations/cost of having to go through and look at everything to make sure it doesn't violate ITAR) | 19:18 |
| @fenn | it should all be public domain | 19:19 |
| @fenn | ugh these new TLDs are killing me | 19:22 |
| @fenn | joepie91__: do you know what http://archive.today is? | 19:25 |
| joepie91__ | fenn: it's what used to be archive.is | 19:25 |
| joepie91__ | they switched TLD for whatever reason | 19:25 |
| joepie91__ | as for reports... which reports? | 19:25 |
| @fenn | nasa technical reports from the nasa technical reports server which were pulled a couple years ago when some congressmen freaked out that "the chinese" could access "missile technology" or something | 19:26 |
| joepie91__ | oh | 19:28 |
| joepie91__ | well | 19:28 |
| joepie91__ | you can upload them to archive.org | 19:28 |
| joepie91__ | they might get darked if there's abusemail | 19:28 |
| joepie91__ | but they won't be removed | 19:28 |
| kanzure | darked content is useless to me | 19:29 |
| joepie91__ | where 'darked' means "not publicly accessible but still archived" | 19:29 |
| kanzure | you might as well say removed | 19:29 |
| kanzure | there's very little difference | 19:29 |
| joepie91__ | kanzure: not really | 19:29 |
| kanzure | what's the point if i can't use it | 19:29 |
| joepie91__ | for a commercial file host, yes | 19:29 |
| joepie91__ | for a long-term archival project, no | 19:29 |
| joepie91__ | the point is archival | 19:29 |
| kanzure | i can't use the content when i'm dead | 19:29 |
| joepie91__ | there's a significant difference between removed and existing but not currently accessible, when you're talking about long-term archiving | 19:29 |
| kanzure | and others shouldn't get to just because i didn't | 19:30 |
| kanzure | is there a list of which content is not accessible? | 19:30 |
| @fenn | i'm also quite unclear on all this privacy stuff, when we're talking about living forever | 19:30 |
| joepie91__ | kanzure: not that I know of | 19:31 |
| @fenn | the federal government may get marginalized to the point of unenforceability.. when will "darked" material be released to the public? | 19:31 |
| @fenn | joepie91__: have you read snow crash? | 19:32 |
| kanzure | censored | 19:32 |
| kanzure | just say censored :\ | 19:32 |
| kanzure | or revoked? i don't even know. dark is the wrong word. | 19:32 |
| joepie91__ | kanzure: it's called darked because it's a dark archive | 19:32 |
| @fenn | maybe "darked" should only be used when it's actually available on a darknet | 19:32 |
| joepie91__ | fenn: I have not | 19:32 |
| @fenn | you should read snow crash, and anathem | 19:33 |
| @fenn | er, whoops i meant the diamond age | 19:33 |
| @fenn | it's all the same story | 19:33 |
| joepie91__ | I'll grab them on my ereader, sec :P | 19:33 |
| @fenn | cryptonomicon begins in WWII and goes through the 1990s | 19:33 |
| @fenn | now i forget which book is which | 19:34 |
| joepie91__ | btw, does this channel have the equivalent of [off]? | 19:34 |
| @fenn | no | 19:34 |
| kanzure | no | 19:34 |
| joepie91__ | k | 19:34 |
| @fenn | blame kanzure | 19:34 |
| * joepie91__ blames kanzure | 19:35 | |
| @fenn | blame! | 19:35 |
| kanzure | better than all the other private transhumanist channels. those are all fucking dead. | 19:35 |
| @fenn | what's the most illegal thing we could talk about | 19:35 |
| joepie91__ | meth,obviously | 19:36 |
| @fenn | treason? assassination? dispersing weapons of mass distraction? | 19:36 |
| kanzure | nah that's discussed regularly | 19:36 |
| joepie91__ | fenn: just talk about violating the CFAA | 19:36 |
| joepie91__ | that's probably severe enough | 19:36 |
| @fenn | .wik cfaa | 19:36 |
| yoleaux | "Disambiguation: CFAA" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFAA | 19:36 |
| joepie91__ | helpful yoleaux is helpful | 19:36 |
| joepie91__ | computer fraud and abuse act | 19:36 |
| kanzure | it's one of the whiteneck hate crime laws | 19:36 |
| @fenn | "custom filter anti aliasing" wtf | 19:36 |
| * joepie91__ downloads snow crash | 19:37 | |
| * joepie91__ downloads anathem | 19:38 | |
| * joepie91__ twiddles | 19:38 | |
| kanzure | you have a twiddler? | 19:38 |
| -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@154.122.23.137] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 19:39 | |
| joepie91__ | I have my thumbs | 19:39 |
| kanzure | http://www.handykey.com/images/twiddler2.jpg | 19:39 |
| joepie91__ | confirmed not a cat | 19:39 |
| joepie91__ | I seem to have confused my ereaders browser | 19:39 |
| @fenn | that thing looks like a exercise in poor ergonomics | 19:40 |
| joepie91__ | actually, I seem to have confused my ereader | 19:40 |
| joepie91__ | ... | 19:40 |
| @fenn | joepie91__: so, snow crash takes off where cryptonomicon ends | 19:40 |
| joepie91__ | the "downloading" popup won't go away, even though it's alraedy done downloading | 19:40 |
| @fenn | which is basically today with bitcoin eroding the tax base | 19:41 |
| joepie91__ | lol | 19:41 |
| @fenn | the federal government still exists but is marginalized due to its lack of a budget and can't enforce laws | 19:41 |
| @fenn | the CIA/NSA sell their data on the open market and operate as a data exchange like amazon, connecting people like you and me with buyers of information | 19:42 |
| kanzure | yes it would be nice if the nsa had a public archive.. | 19:42 |
| joepie91__ | http://archive.org/details/nsa_data_collection | 19:43 |
| kanzure | hm | 19:43 |
| kanzure | was not expecting | 19:43 |
| joepie91__ | fenn: that sounds like a vaguely dystopianish environment | 19:43 |
| joepie91__ | kanzure: please tell me you actually clicked that | 19:43 |
| joepie91__ | :D | 19:43 |
| gradstudentbot | Wasn't that a Nature paper? | 19:44 |
| @fenn | was nsa_data_collection supposed to be "Item cannot be found." | 19:44 |
| joepie91__ | yes :P | 19:44 |
| joepie91__ | also I need some sleep | 19:45 |
| @fenn | me too | 19:45 |
| joepie91__ | but fenn, I strategically relocated characters into a query | 19:45 |
| @fenn | initiate sleep protocol | 19:45 |
| @fenn | slep(50000) | 19:46 |
| @fenn | dammit | 19:46 |
| * joepie91__ goes zzz | 19:47 | |
| joepie91__ | night all | 19:47 |
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| kanzure | .title http://www2.imm.dtu.dk/pubdb/views/publication_details.php?id=855 | 20:56 |
| yoleaux | Asynchronous circuit design | 20:56 |
| kanzure | .title http://www.ohwr.org/projects/asyncart/wiki | 20:56 |
| yoleaux | Open Hardware Repository | 20:57 |
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| kanzure | paperbot: http://www2.imm.dtu.dk/pubdb/views/edoc_download.php/855/pdf/imm855.pdf | 20:57 |
| paperbot | ConnectionError: [Errno -2] Name or service not known (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/models.py", line 625, in send) | 20:57 |
| kanzure | http://spacecollege.org/isee3/we-are-now-in-command-of-the-isee-3-spacecraft.html "The ISEE-3 Reboot Project is pleased to announce that our team has established two-way communication with the ISEE-3 spacecraft and has begun commanding it to perform specific functions. Over the coming days and weeks our team will make an assessment of the spacecraft's overall health and refine the techniques required to fire its engines and bring it back to ... | 21:12 |
| kanzure | ... an orbit near Earth." | 21:12 |
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| kanzure | hmm i forgot about http://sdiehl.github.io/gevent-tutorial/ | 21:26 |
| kanzure | i also forgot about gevent.sleep | 21:29 |
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| --- Log closed Fri May 30 00:00:19 2014 | ||
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