| --- Log opened Fri Oct 31 00:00:36 2014 | ||
| justanotheruser | because sleep is wasted time | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| justanotheruser | it is a trick by your body to get your brain to use its resources on it | 00:01 |
| justanotheruser | but the brain is what is important | 00:01 |
| justanotheruser | 5031286103ba6249e8113870f00beae87a5b625e | 00:01 |
| fenn | even flies sleep | 00:01 |
| justanotheruser | the brain is for thinking, the body is for fighting, we are no longer brutes | 00:02 |
| fenn | are you dumber than a fly | 00:02 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: are you dumber than a robot? | 00:02 |
| fenn | yeah :\ | 00:02 |
| justanotheruser | will AIs that don't sleep be dumb? | 00:02 |
| fenn | well, they probably won't have to since they don't have brains | 00:03 |
| fenn | biological neurons | 00:03 |
| justanotheruser | to answer your question, I doubt I'm dumber than a fly, | 00:03 |
| fenn | "Nedergaard’s team has dubbed the new system “the glymphatic system,” since it acts much like the lymphatic system but is managed by brain cells known as glial cells." | 00:14 |
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| fenn | genehacker, jackybgood, talk to each other | 00:19 |
| genehacker | about? | 00:19 |
| fenn | space replicators n stuff | 00:19 |
| genehacker | ok | 00:21 |
| jackybgood | messaged you | 00:21 |
| genehacker | why not just talk here? | 00:21 |
| jackybgood | I just figured I'd save everyone the headache of reading through the discussion. Anyway, I want to 3d print self replicating nanotechnology on asteroids and planets. | 00:23 |
| genehacker | step 1: figure out how to 3d print nanotechnology | 00:24 |
| jackybgood | Any idea on how to do that? I've skimmed over electrospinning nanomaterials | 00:25 |
| jackybgood | The self-assembly is what I don't grasp yet | 00:25 |
| genehacker | I think I got an idea, but it would be really, really, really, really slow | 00:26 |
| fenn | did you read that paper about algorithmic dna tile assembly? | 00:26 |
| genehacker | skimmed | 00:26 |
| jackybgood | I may have? If you sent it | 00:26 |
| fenn | by winfree, rothemund, and others | 00:27 |
| fenn | it's probably the closest thing we currently have to self-assembling nanotechnology | 00:27 |
| fenn | atomically precise construction | 00:27 |
| genehacker | well if you're into the whole nanotechnology thing there's toth-fejel's self-replicating machine proposal | 00:28 |
| genehacker | http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/final_report/883Toth-Fejel.pdf | 00:28 |
| jackybgood | Then no, I don't recall reading it. fenn sent me a few articles yesterday, which outlined the early proposals of self-replicating lunar bases | 00:29 |
| genehacker | where you use DNA origami type stuff to put together tiny electrical components | 00:30 |
| fenn | heh "With exponential growth, a single self-replicating probe could be expected to convert the entire mass of the Galaxy into copies of itself within 2 million years. Any species intelligent enough to build such a probe, Sagan and Newman argued, would also be intelligent enough to realize the danger of it and so would not embark upon the project in the first place." | 00:30 |
| jackybgood | dead before it starts | 00:31 |
| jackybgood | Wouldn't they just follow an objective, and not worry about the outcome? | 00:31 |
| genehacker | well guess I'm not an intelligent species | 00:31 |
| jackybgood | Apparently. I'm trying to figure out a way to add value to colonizing other planets | 00:32 |
| genehacker | well that is unfortunate then | 00:33 |
| jackybgood | There's value on asteroids | 00:33 |
| jackybgood | 'in' | 00:33 |
| genehacker | one of the problems with self-replicating machines is they become exponentially less valuable | 00:33 |
| jackybgood | Why? | 00:34 |
| jackybgood | You'd never run out of things to build with something self-replicating. People would always find a use | 00:34 |
| genehacker | your supply exponentially increases so your value approaches zero | 00:35 |
| genehacker | and some weird traditional economics stuff | 00:35 |
| jackybgood | But there would always also be a constant demand for more material | 00:35 |
| fenn | An early fictional treatment was the short story "Autofac" by Philip K. Dick, published in 1955, which precedes von Neumann's original paper about self-reproducing machines (von Neumann, J., 1966, The Theory of Self-reproducing Automata | 00:36 |
| fenn | autofac is one of my favorite stories | 00:36 |
| jackybgood | I'll have to look for it | 00:36 |
| jackybgood | In theory, designing a 3d printer to send up to a planet to start the process of building self-assembling space structures would have value to future colonists | 00:38 |
| genehacker | or maybe not, I maybe am confusing the st. petersburg paradox | 00:39 |
| jackybgood | Assuming there is a value to be had on the planet for a sustainable economy | 00:39 |
| jackybgood | what's that | 00:39 |
| genehacker | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Petersburg_paradox | 00:39 |
| genehacker | basically you end up with infinite returns, but the actual people involved find the value of participating to be low | 00:40 |
| genehacker | now back to nanotechnology | 00:41 |
| jackybgood | I'm not sure that makes sense. Why would infinite returns drop the value? | 00:42 |
| genehacker | because it's not valuable to the people participating | 00:43 |
| genehacker | but since the system here doesn't involve people it maybe doesn't apply | 00:43 |
| jackybgood | Participating in the colonization? Or of the building of the structures? I would think of it as though there were platinum to be mined. There would be seemingly infinite value to the company who starts building structures and delves into the mining | 00:44 |
| fenn | sorry for the bad format, search for "By PHILIP K. DICK" on https://archive.org/stream/galaxymagazine-1955-11/Galaxy_1955_11_djvu.txt | 00:44 |
| genehacker | so part of the problem with big space projects is what value is brought to Earth? | 00:45 |
| jackybgood | That's where companies like Planetary Resources come in, for transporting the materials back to the base | 00:46 |
| jackybgood | The base then being on Earth or wherever they choose | 00:46 |
| genehacker | however, it probably doesn't make economic sense to mine platinum and send it back to earth right now | 00:47 |
| fenn | re: diminishing marginal utility, " gain of one thousand ducats is more significant to the pauper than to a rich man though both gain the same amount." | 00:47 |
| fenn | (ducat = dollar) | 00:47 |
| fenn | it doesn't make sense to send raw materials back to earth because "stuff" costs $10,000/kg in low earth orbit right now | 00:48 |
| jackybgood | Why not? There's plenty of valuable minerals in the asteroids floating around. Jst one could contain more platinum than has been mined in history | 00:48 |
| genehacker | of course right now we don't really understand the asteroidal environment | 00:48 |
| fenn | anything is way more valuable in space than on earth, excluding nuclear isotopes and exotic technology | 00:49 |
| fenn | this is why people started talking about replicators in space in the first place | 00:50 |
| fenn | even though replicators are also quite useful on earth | 00:50 |
| jackybgood | With space travel becoming much cheaper with SpaceX, there's now a reason to explore space | 00:51 |
| fenn | eh, it's not that much cheaper | 00:51 |
| genehacker | we don't know how asteroids behave when they are mined, we have only about 1000 or so grains of asteroidal regolith, we aren't sure what they look like on the inside | 00:51 |
| fenn | genehacker: actually we have "ground" penetrating radar maps from hayabusa (i think) | 00:52 |
| jackybgood | I thought we would have already developed mining technology to scan for certain buried elements, by now? | 00:52 |
| genehacker | second even though asteroids have lots of platinum, the concentration is still pretty low | 00:52 |
| genehacker | well not quite | 00:53 |
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| jackybgood | This is still a few years out, which is why I'm trying to work on it now | 00:55 |
| genehacker | the big thing we don't understand right now is granular mechanics | 00:55 |
| jackybgood | People are working on how to get to asteroids and land on Mars. I'm working on what to do next | 00:55 |
| jackybgood | googling.... | 00:55 |
| genehacker | that is we don't understand how dirt behaves | 00:55 |
| jackybgood | How's that? | 00:56 |
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| genehacker | as in we don't know why some things happen in granular mechanics | 00:57 |
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| genehacker | part of the problem is that granular materials have no scaling laws like you have with fluids | 00:58 |
| jackybgood | We're stumped by dirt | 00:59 |
| genehacker | you can't build a scaled down model of a concrete plant and then scale up | 00:59 |
| genehacker | you have to build at full scale to test things out | 00:59 |
| jackybgood | Isn't that like running before you can walk? You have to start somewhere in the building process | 01:00 |
| genehacker | basically, but that's the only way to do it | 01:00 |
| jackybgood | Is to start with a strcuture of nanoparticles and run tests? | 01:01 |
| genehacker | and even then concrete plants aren't that reliable and compensate with continuous maintenance | 01:01 |
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| jackybgood | I figured we'd program them like nanobots to complete an objective and then stop growing | 01:02 |
| genehacker | here's more on the subject http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20050198938.pdf | 01:02 |
| genehacker | well first you have to figure out how to program them like nanobots | 01:02 |
| jackybgood | As the uninformed, you mean we can't do that yet? | 01:03 |
| fenn | well here is a thing http://www.asteroidmines.net/documents/MiningRig/RigForMining.html | 01:04 |
| jackybgood | I suppose there really isn't a nanoparticle library that you can incorporate variables from, yet | 01:04 |
| genehacker | well maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by program | 01:04 |
| genehacker | but the main thing is granular materials don't have scaling laws | 01:05 |
| fenn | if you want to "program" something you need a computer; we don't have nano-sized computers (yet) | 01:05 |
| jackybgood | But we can design nanomaterials already. That doesn't use programming? | 01:06 |
| fenn | alternatively you can "encode" shapes and motifs into self-assembling pieces | 01:06 |
| fenn | words are inherently ambiguous and imprecise | 01:06 |
| genehacker | and the only way to get the required properties of the dirt for these nanobots is to actually obtain the dirt | 01:07 |
| fenn | but it's sloppy thinking to just say "oh, we'll get some nanobots to do it" | 01:07 |
| genehacker | in real life we'd just use a simulation and not nanobots, but our simulations aren't that great | 01:07 |
| jackybgood | We've created synthetic dirts, but I suppose that's not precise enough. | 01:08 |
| jackybgood | I've only been learning about the technicalities of nanotechnology for the past month or so | 01:09 |
| genehacker | in order to mine asteroids we really need to study them more | 01:10 |
| jackybgood | So we obtain dirt, study and break it down, then try to copy the structure? | 01:11 |
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| fenn | did nasa continue with the plan to tow a small asteroid back to earth orbit? | 01:11 |
| fenn | er, to the moon | 01:12 |
| genehacker | yup, and we did that moon dust already | 01:13 |
| jackybgood | I'm not too worried about NASA's progress as much as privatized companies, who aren't held back by regulation nearly as much | 01:13 |
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| jackybgood | We did the structure thing with lunar dust? | 01:13 |
| genehacker | yeah, there's this stuff called jsc-1 which we think is pretty close to moon dust | 01:14 |
| jackybgood | I think I saw that being sold somewhere, synthetically for research | 01:15 |
| genehacker | of course with asteroids there might be some weird microgravity effects:https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/brazil-nut-effect-explains-mystery-of-the-boulder-strewn-surface-of-asteroids-e5fae1b6c242 | 01:15 |
| genehacker | yeah, by the pound: | 01:16 |
| genehacker | http://www.orbitec.com/store/simulant.html | 01:16 |
| jackybgood | So don't we get about how it can bind | 01:16 |
| jackybgood | There's no chemical reaction we can cause to make it bond to itself, into a solid mass? | 01:17 |
| genehacker | well that's where things can start to get really weird | 01:18 |
| jackybgood | Fun | 01:18 |
| genehacker | turns out rubbing grains together can cause electrostatic forces to come into play | 01:19 |
| jackybgood | In the field of granular mechanics, weird? | 01:19 |
| jackybgood | The Martian soil can cause electrostatic discharge? | 01:19 |
| genehacker | probably | 01:19 |
| genehacker | oh and van der waals forces if we're in space | 01:20 |
| genehacker | oh and friction coefficient is not something you can calculate | 01:20 |
| jackybgood | Interesting! I must read into this special dirt | 01:20 |
| genehacker | which is one of the really shitty things about the real world | 01:20 |
| fenn | the mars rovers periodically have the dust blown off of their solar panels by electrostatic storms | 01:21 |
| genehacker | http://nile.physics.ncsu.edu/pub/Publications/papers/Daniels-2013-AsteroidsChapter.pdf | 01:21 |
| jackybgood | You can't calculate a friction coefficient? | 01:21 |
| genehacker | which are probably dust devils, which we know pick up an electric charge | 01:21 |
| fenn | also dust jumps up and down at the terminator line on the moon, making for a "sunset" effect | 01:21 |
| fenn | due to the photoelectric effect | 01:21 |
| fenn | it goes several hundred feet up | 01:22 |
| jackybgood | That's bizarre | 01:22 |
| genehacker | with sufficient computing power anything is possible, just not practical | 01:22 |
| fenn | friction coefficients are hard enough already | 01:22 |
| genehacker | now the publication above shows one of the problems with asteroid mining | 01:23 |
| jackybgood | In that we can't yet figure out if there's a static shock we have to worry about when we take samples and manipulate the soil | 01:24 |
| fenn | i liked the idea of just putting a bag around the whole thing | 01:25 |
| genehacker | by removing material from an asteroid, which could be a collection of boulders that is held together, if you remove the wrong bit of material you can cause an avalanche | 01:25 |
| genehacker | http://www.astrobio.net/topic/solar-system/meteoritescomets-and-asteroids/landing-on-an-asteroid-may-cause-avalanches/ | 01:25 |
| genehacker | well we already have samples of asteroid, just not much of them, the only probe to ever take samples back from an asteroid malfunctioned when it took the samples | 01:26 |
| fenn | it did? how? | 01:26 |
| jackybgood | Which one? | 01:26 |
| jackybgood | How much static are we really worried about? | 01:27 |
| fenn | i thought hayabusa just jabbed a tube into the surface | 01:27 |
| genehacker | "the sampling sequence was not triggered since a sensor detected an obstacle during descent" | 01:27 |
| genehacker | his mode did not permit a sample to be taken, but there is a high probability that some dust may have whirled up into the sampling horn when it touched the asteroid, so the sample canister currently attached to the sampling horn was sealed. On November 25, a second touchdown attempt was performed. It was initially thought that this time, the sampling device was activated;[40] however, later... | 01:28 |
| genehacker | ...analysis decided that this was probably another failure and that no pellets were fired. | 01:28 |
| genehacker | but they did find some microscopic grains in it | 01:29 |
| genehacker | which are a start | 01:29 |
| jackybgood | They made a sampling tube that couldn't be opened again? | 01:29 |
| genehacker | and of course we know approximately what asteroids are made of so at least the chemical processing can be worked out | 01:30 |
| jackybgood | That sounds like a good thing. If we know what is under the surface of an asteroid, we can decide its value | 01:31 |
| genehacker | they made a gun to shoot an asteroid and collect anything that got ejected from the surface | 01:31 |
| jackybgood | and then mine it | 01:31 |
| genehacker | but the gun didn't fire | 01:31 |
| jackybgood | When was that | 01:32 |
| genehacker | well we know that asteroids are probably going to be pretty homogenous from what we know of planet formation and we know that they have similar spectra to meteorites we have on earth | 01:33 |
| genehacker | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayabusa | 01:33 |
| jackybgood | It will take too long to slow down an asteroid enough, which is why there has to be mining done while it is travelin | 01:36 |
| genehacker | well in general it's probably going to be more difficult to move an asteroid than it is to move platinum acquired from said asteroid | 01:37 |
| jackybgood | The farther away it is, the easier it is to transport | 01:39 |
| fenn | bah. the oxygen is worth just as much as the platinum is, in orbit | 01:39 |
| genehacker | but if you can figure out how to get the dirt and build stuff on an asteroid, then you're done with most of the speculative stuff | 01:40 |
| jackybgood | But it's much more dangerous to slow down a speeding asteroid at 20k mph, than to manipulate it in orbit | 01:40 |
| genehacker | yes | 01:41 |
| fenn | that's why you put it in a bag, to keep the broken pieces from flying off | 01:41 |
| jackybgood | Right, so I have to come up with a way to get the dirt and then manipulate it, clone it into nanotech that can then self-assemble? | 01:41 |
| jackybgood | You can't put something the size of Texas in a bag | 01:42 |
| fenn | why does it have to be the size of texas? | 01:42 |
| jackybgood | Because...we only want to mine the big beefy ones that are full of minerals? | 01:43 |
| fenn | why not just mine earth then | 01:43 |
| jackybgood | We've destroyed it enough already | 01:44 |
| fenn | oh come on | 01:44 |
| genehacker | well if it's nickel iron, you can use mond process to seperate out platinum | 01:44 |
| jackybgood | If anything, my Earth mission is to design plant nanobionics to absorb pollution | 01:44 |
| genehacker | http://www.angelfire.com/co/rwrwrw/carbonyl.htm | 01:45 |
| genehacker | the interesting thing about this process is that you get out some nice gaseous nickel carbonyl | 01:46 |
| fenn | looks like you get nickel spheres | 01:47 |
| fenn | the carbonyl is just a catalyst | 01:47 |
| jackybgood | We'd only get nickel out of the platinum? | 01:48 |
| genehacker | and if you have a high power laser or focused sunlight you decompose the nickel carbonyl into nickel | 01:48 |
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| fenn | uh.. well presumably you could do some kind of mass/charge ratio separation on the gas phase to separate out different elements | 01:49 |
| fenn | like a big mass spectrometer | 01:49 |
| genehacker | and if you control where the laser or focused sunlight goes, you can essentially do 3d printing | 01:49 |
| genehacker | boiling point seperation fenn | 01:50 |
| fenn | how about making thin films for mirrors instead | 01:50 |
| genehacker | yup that works too | 01:50 |
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| genehacker | and then you can use those mirror to make more mirrors | 01:51 |
| fenn | it seems like oxygen would quickly poison the carbon monoxide | 01:53 |
| fenn | then it would just be CO2 and not a catalyst | 01:53 |
| genehacker | yeah | 01:53 |
| fenn | you need some way to reduce the CO2 | 01:54 |
| genehacker | you know I never really have considered this whole asteroid mining thing much | 01:54 |
| genehacker | but the carbon and hydrogen content is nice | 01:55 |
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| jackybgood | There's lots of opportunity | 01:56 |
| genehacker | but as like all big space projects, it involves huge investments | 01:57 |
| genehacker | dang, I need to get back to writing my paper about all this | 01:57 |
| jackybgood | Or a large group | 01:57 |
| jackybgood | Writing about asteroid mining? | 01:58 |
| genehacker | L5 wasn't that successful | 01:58 |
| genehacker | self-replicating machine | 01:58 |
| genehacker | *s | 01:58 |
| genehacker | I want to find a controller for a simple one | 01:58 |
| genehacker | doing all work in simulation | 01:59 |
| jackybgood | All theory and no practical application until the theory is proven? | 01:59 |
| fenn | jeez.. hayabusa 2 is going to use a shape charge plastic explosive to blow up a crater | 01:59 |
| genehacker | that's fucking awesome | 01:59 |
| fenn | way to contaminate the sample guys | 01:59 |
| jackybgood | mini boom | 02:00 |
| genehacker | it's a class project, so I can't really expect much | 02:00 |
| jackybgood | What major? | 02:00 |
| genehacker | at this point I'm not even sure | 02:01 |
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| jackybgood | Lol I feel the same way. My ideas are big, but it's very hard to condense them into a specific field | 02:02 |
| genehacker | I'm supposed to be a mechanical engineer, but my job's to design an AI to design molecules that are machines | 02:03 |
| jackybgood | Self-replicating machines? | 02:04 |
| jackybgood | That would be the cherry on top | 02:05 |
| genehacker | hopefully, eventually | 02:05 |
| genehacker | just simple machines for now | 02:05 |
| fenn | genehacker: just solve the protein folding problem and you're good to go | 02:06 |
| jackybgood | and figure out how to program nanoparticles, while you're at it. That's one of the problems I'm supposed to be working on now | 02:07 |
| genehacker | fenn: for what we're doing we don't need to solve the protein folding problem | 02:08 |
| jackybgood | Have no idea where to start programming baye's theorem, because I have no experience at all in programming | 02:08 |
| fenn | jackybgood: the magic keywords you're looking for is "amorphous computing" | 02:08 |
| fenn | but yeah, starting with regular computing first is a good idea | 02:08 |
| jackybgood | I'm a month into learning Python, cross-platform from C++ | 02:09 |
| fenn | good place to start | 02:10 |
| jackybgood | Not at all, when on a deadline | 02:12 |
| genehacker | and I need to remember how to program in C++ | 02:14 |
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| jackybgood | I like it because of the syntax and braces; it | 02:15 |
| jackybgood | it's nice and neat | 02:15 |
| genehacker | when one has a deadline, one should abandon all notions of neatness | 02:17 |
| jackybgood | Good point. But this is the infrastructure of a large database | 02:18 |
| jackybgood | So neatness is necessity | 02:18 |
| fenn | just use version control and consistent formatting and document your work and i won't care what language you use | 02:18 |
| genehacker | also not used to the whole pointers and header files thing because of too much C# | 02:18 |
| genehacker | what about brainf? | 02:19 |
| fenn | (actually i am a python zealot, just attempting to avert a programming language holy war) | 02:19 |
| jackybgood | I figure python would work well for Bayes' Theorem | 02:20 |
| genehacker | you know the toth-fejel paper originally considered using a computer architecture that implemented brainF in hardware? | 02:20 |
| jackybgood | Rather then using C++ and breaking it down into comparing pointers or array sets | 02:20 |
| genehacker | this way you have the absolute minimum gate count necessary to make something that's turing complete | 02:21 |
| fenn | genehacker: well they are both geometric and orthogonal | 02:21 |
| fenn | i doubt it's "the absolute minimum" | 02:21 |
| fenn | i think the minimum is like 2 gates | 02:22 |
| genehacker | for a cellular automata thing? | 02:22 |
| fenn | obviously there are tradeoffs | 02:22 |
| fenn | yeah, turing complete cellular automata | 02:22 |
| jackybgood | Heard of using Verilog in Python for simulating? | 02:24 |
| jackybgood | not python | 02:24 |
| jackybgood | It's its own language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verilog | 02:25 |
| genehacker | yeah and they said this too, why use a brainF architecture that's impossible to program when you can use a picoblaze architecture you can actually compile to with something C like | 02:25 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfram%27s_2-state_3-symbol_Turing_machine | 02:25 |
| fenn | night | 02:29 |
| jackybgood | Night thanks for the chat | 02:30 |
| jackybgood | Happy Halloween | 02:30 |
| genehacker | night | 02:30 |
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| jrayhawk_ | kanzure: a botnet was going nuts on the newuser CGI; I've disabled it for now. | 04:09 |
| jrayhawk_ | If you know of a dirt simple way to do a captcha, let me know. | 04:14 |
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| kanzure | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archival_Disc | 06:01 |
| chris_99 | have you seen this one http://www.mdisc.com/what-is-mdisc/ | 06:13 |
| chris_99 | 1000 years storage allegedly | 06:13 |
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| heath | i had the dji phantom aerial linked earlier | 10:18 |
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| heath | i still have the propeller guards if anyone wants them | 10:19 |
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| delinquentme | BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAh | 10:49 |
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| justanotheruser | sheep | 10:51 |
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| nmz787_i1 | delinquentme: why you no reply me on facebook re: soylent taste? | 11:22 |
| kanzure | https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/932664050/opentrons-open-source-rapid-prototyping-for-biolog | 11:34 |
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| kanzure | " http://mix.bio/ is the first ever community for the peer-to-peer development of open-source automated biology protocols. " | 11:42 |
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| nmz787_i1 | seems alright | 11:59 |
| nmz787_i1 | kind of funny how the woman in the video says she works at 'the' top cancer research place | 12:00 |
| nmz787_i1 | or something that sounded like that | 12:00 |
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| kanzure | the most tippy top | 12:11 |
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| fenn | not a good week for spaceflight | 12:26 |
| nmz787_i1 | this sounds like the tagline to the next winter holiday movie blockbuster "If I just had one wish for Christmas it would be some bio education and open-mindedness to the ETC and green/greenpeace people. " | 12:29 |
| nmz787_i1 | fade from black to a boy with a tear rolling down his eye | 12:29 |
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| fenn | spaceship two blew up while testing a new plastic-based rocket motor | 12:35 |
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| nmz787_i1 | paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/ipdf/10.1021/bm5004948 | 13:49 |
| nmz787_i1 | kanzure: is it too dangerous to add a command like paperbot restart or something? | 13:53 |
| archels | https://gist.github.com/turingbirds/3cb9e64df0c09f5ffda6 | 13:53 |
| archels | .title | 13:53 |
| yoleaux | usbreset.c | 13:53 |
| kanzure | yes that is a little dangerous/annoying | 13:53 |
| kanzure | gnusha reboots paperbot whenever i push new commits | 13:53 |
| kanzure | s/reboots/reloads its python modules | 13:54 |
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| fenn | .title http://www.sciencemag.org/content/346/6208/481.abstract <- genehacker | 14:22 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed. | 14:22 |
| fenn | .title http://www.sciencemag.org/content/346/6208/481.abstract | 14:22 |
| yoleaux | High thermodynamic stability of parametrically designed helical bundles | 14:22 |
| fenn | "The approach enables the custom design of hyperstable proteins with fine-tuned geometries for a wide range of applications." | 14:24 |
| kanzure | hmm. | 14:26 |
| heath | .bio is a tld, neat | 14:30 |
| * heath hopes opentrons is founded | 14:30 | |
| heath | s/founded/funded | 14:30 |
| heath | fenn, where'd you hear about that paper? | 14:32 |
| kanzure | from the aether | 14:37 |
| kanzure | there's a pdf aether | 14:37 |
| kanzure | like a fine, disgusting mist | 14:37 |
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| nmz787_i1 | .title http://www.aib-seeds.com/en/report-piracy/4.aib | 15:29 |
| yoleaux | Report Piracy | 15:29 |
| nmz787_i1 | 'Report piracy by clicking on the red button' | 15:29 |
| fenn | i was reading science magazine while eating breakfast. i've been teasing genehacker about how solving the protein folding problem would put him out of a job | 15:29 |
| nmz787_i1 | fenn: or put him in a position to formulate alternative folding polymers | 15:30 |
| nmz787_i1 | alternative-chemistry | 15:30 |
| nmz787_i1 | 'Plant breeding is a highly sophisticated and cost-intensive business. Depending on the crop, the R&D process takes on average 5 to 15 years. ' | 15:31 |
| nmz787_i1 | seems about right from what I've seen since entering the field | 15:31 |
| fenn | why dont we see more genetically engineered mosses | 15:32 |
| fenn | you can put em in a blender and they still survive just fine | 15:32 |
| fenn | much shorter breeding cycle too | 15:32 |
| fenn | "did you mean transgenic mouse?" | 15:34 |
| fenn | well this is a weird redirect | 15:34 |
| fenn | .title https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossclone | 15:34 |
| yoleaux | Framework Programmes for Research and Technological Development - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | 15:35 |
| jackybgood | paperbot http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nn502926x | 15:36 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1021%2Fnn502926x | 15:36 |
| fenn | i want one http://www.mossclone.eu/images/news/Sphagnum_palustre_in_Bioreactor.jpg | 15:42 |
| fenn | The moss plants swimming in this bioreactor all derive from the spores of a single sporangium capsule of a single Spagnum palustre plant from northern Germany. The cultivation of single clones makes it needless to harvest specimens from the wild. Plants raised under this controlled laboratory conditions will provide the standardized raw material which is needed to detect pollutants in picogram | 15:42 |
| fenn | quantities. | 15:42 |
| kanzure | fenn, what are all the different things on the top of that cylinder's top surface in the image | 15:43 |
| kanzure | two of them seem to be holes, some seem to be related to some structural support maybe.. | 15:44 |
| kanzure | i count at last 14 different random things there.... | 15:44 |
| fenn | tubing connectors for aeration, screws to hold the lid on, and i dont know what the nuts with washers are for, perhaps to mount mixing paddles that arent used in this reactor | 15:46 |
| nmz787_i1 | paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/ipdf/10.1021/bm5004948 | 15:46 |
| fenn | if you imagine the central tube is used to rotate the whole reactor back and forth, and there are paddles to break up the rotational flow of culture media | 15:47 |
| kanzure | that's an interesting idea, rotating the whole setup | 15:47 |
| kanzure | i always thought just of fans and blending inside most reactors | 15:48 |
| nmz787_i1 | ugh, paperbot makes me sad recently | 15:49 |
| nmz787_i1 | .title http://pubs.acs.org/doi/ipdf/10.1021/bm5004948 | 15:49 |
| yoleaux | An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie | 15:49 |
| nmz787_i1 | hah | 15:49 |
| nmz787_i1 | 'Engineered Coiled-Coil Protein Microfibers' | 15:49 |
| kanzure | well then let's fix paperbot | 15:51 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot | 15:51 |
| nmz787_i1 | .wik cytochalasin b | 15:52 |
| yoleaux | "Cytochalasin B, the name of which comes from the Greek cytos (cell) and chalasis (relaxation), is a cell-permeable mycotoxin. It was found that substoichimetric concentrations of cytochalasin B (CB) strongly inhibit network formation by actin filaments. Due to this, it is often used in cytological research." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytochalasin_b | 15:52 |
| nmz787_i1 | kanzure: my main problem with development was that I couldnt test code without committing it, and that made the development cycle long and annoying | 15:53 |
| fenn | if you have a stirring paddle in the center you still need stator blades or the liquid will just rotate around uselessly instead of blending | 15:53 |
| kanzure | paperbot v2 can be tested without committing | 15:53 |
| kanzure | since it does not have the irc integration | 15:54 |
| kanzure | or other terrible idas | 15:54 |
| kanzure | ideas | 15:54 |
| kanzure | it's pure-python | 15:54 |
| kanzure | pure pureness | 15:54 |
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| fenn | .title http://www.greenovation.com/scalability.html | 16:00 |
| yoleaux | Scalability | GREENOVATION - Pharmaceutical Protein Production in Moss | 16:00 |
| fenn | neat stuff. no worries about LPS contamination | 16:00 |
| kanzure | hmm is moss really better? | 16:01 |
| kanzure | or more scalable | 16:01 |
| kanzure | vegf production, sounds great, sign me up | 16:01 |
| fenn | well it certainly has a shorter lifecycle than, say, tobacco | 16:01 |
| kanzure | actually i mean more like form factor and production volume or something | 16:01 |
| fenn | i dunno, all that stuff is super top secret anyway | 16:01 |
| kanzure | bioreactors do seem rather underappreciated in general | 16:02 |
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| fenn | the diagram shows a blender paddle/blade thingy in the central metallic cylinder on the lid of the bioreactor | 16:03 |
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| fenn | "In contrast to heterotrophic systems like microbial or mammalian cell cultures, requiring much more complex media, this photoautotrophic process is based on rather simple, purely mineral media. The obvious economic benefit is not only due to media cost itself, but is also reflected downstream in high initial purity and generic purification paths." | 16:04 |
| nmz787_i1 | heh, 'top-secret moss' | 16:04 |
| fenn | i just mean the nitty gritty details of pharmaceutical production | 16:05 |
| kanzure | i'm more familiar with schemes like hairy root and algae bioreactors | 16:05 |
| nmz787_i1 | oh, well I think yashgaroth would be able to handle those questions | 16:05 |
| nmz787_i1 | is that the model moss that diybio has had discussions on? | 16:05 |
| fenn | Physcomitrella patens? | 16:06 |
| nmz787_i1 | if that's what the archives say | 16:08 |
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| fenn | it's been used as a model organism because it has good homologous recombination | 16:08 |
| fenn | i just think this is hilarious https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Physcomitrella_growing_on_agar_plates.jpg | 16:10 |
| nmz787_i1 | apparently french cats hoard papers now http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=6570311 | 16:10 |
| nmz787_i1 | paperbot: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=6570311 | 16:10 |
| nmz787_i1 | 'cat' institute, eh | 16:10 |
| nmz787_i1 | meow | 16:10 |
| nmz787_i1 | fenn: you should see the one of a mushroom growing from a book | 16:11 |
| fenn | i think 'cat' is just short for 'catalog' | 16:11 |
| nmz787_i1 | meow | 16:11 |
| fenn | did someone slip LSD into your candy | 16:12 |
| nmz787_i1 | not today | 16:12 |
| nmz787_i1 | I am however bored and ready to leave work | 16:12 |
| nmz787_i1 | but I ride-share and have to wait to leave | 16:13 |
| kanzure | papers.py is a mess | 16:13 |
| kanzure | this is ridiculous | 16:13 |
| nmz787_i1 | and soundclound is disgusting me... it is freezing every 30 seconds or so | 16:13 |
| nmz787_i1 | kanzure: i can honestly say I wasn't sure what it was doing when I tried shoe-horning the proxy stuff in there | 16:13 |
| nmz787_i1 | wasn't sure as far as what the code was already doing | 16:14 |
| chris_99 | did you guys see this http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/11/101/20140873.full.pdf+html | 16:14 |
| fenn | .title | 16:15 |
| yoleaux | Homological scaffolds of brain functional networks | 16:15 |
| fenn | sounds pretty gay | 16:15 |
| chris_99 | its on how Psilocybin effects the brain | 16:16 |
| fenn | page 1 is missing? | 16:16 |
| nmz787_i1 | not for me | 16:16 |
| chris_99 | got it 'ere | 16:16 |
| fenn | better version http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/11/101/20140873.full.html | 16:17 |
| nmz787_i1 | or http://rsif.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/11/101/20140873.full.pdf | 16:17 |
| nmz787_i1 | 'In other words these functional connections support cycles that are especially stable and are only present in the psychedelic state. This further implies that the brain does not simply become a random system after psilocybin injects, but instead retains some organizationa features, albeit differetn from the normal state' | 16:20 |
| nmz787_i1 | who the hell really thinks '\shit just goes random' | 16:20 |
| kanzure | er, did anyone really think the brain became totally random? | 16:20 |
| chris_99 | heh | 16:20 |
| nmz787_i1 | ding ding ding | 16:20 |
| kanzure | man that's a low bar for publishing | 16:21 |
| chris_99 | i like the pretty graphs on p8 | 16:21 |
| nmz787_i1 | top of pg8 seems congruent with prior art and common descriptions | 16:22 |
| nmz787_i1 | 'lots more cross-wiring' | 16:22 |
| fenn | finally scientific proof that conference organizers are on drugs: http://www.openbeacon.org/Media:BruCON2011-OpenBeacon-RFID.png | 16:24 |
| chris_99 | haha | 16:25 |
| fenn | if the "hacking for beer" tagline wasnt enough | 16:25 |
| fenn | apparently this is called a "chord diagram" http://bl.ocks.org/mbostock/4062006 | 16:27 |
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| kanzure | so what would an actual chord diagram have to be called | 16:27 |
| kanzure | (for showing chords on a keyboard interface thing) | 16:27 |
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| fenn | circos.ca is such an overdone website i thought for sure it was commercial software | 16:38 |
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| fenn | um, "alphabet chart" apparently http://stenoknight.com/plover/steno-alphabet-for-web-full-size.jpg (for chords that produce the alphabet at least) | 16:40 |
| fenn | what happens if you just press one key, like "z" | 16:41 |
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| fenn | not a single trick-or-treater. more for me i guess | 17:24 |
| streety | plenty in the neighborhood here but no visit, probably a good thing. The best I could offer was nuts, seeds and carrots | 17:25 |
| fenn | hey kid, here's a can of sardines | 17:25 |
| fenn | you want some babyfood? stop crying | 17:26 |
| nmz787 | raining like crazy here | 17:28 |
| streety | sardines, I hadn't considered those. Also a few tins of tuna | 17:28 |
| fenn | if i actually had OCD that yellow one wouldn't be there: http://fennetic.net/irc/IMG_8824.JPG | 17:31 |
| streety | don't eat it all at once fenn | 17:35 |
| streety | actually, on a related topic, is caloric restriction still the only viable option for slowing aging? For enhancing aging high fat / high sugar diet the most detrimental? | 17:40 |
| fenn | intermittent fasting has been shown to have the same effects as calorie restriction | 17:41 |
| fenn | high sugar is bad, high fat depends on the fat, but not as bad as sugar | 17:41 |
| fenn | i think the bad reputation of saturated fat is due to chelating magnesium and contributing to magnesium deficiency | 17:41 |
| fenn | i've been reading about mitochondrial antioxidants such as ss-31 and pqq, which seem to block the effects of metabolic syndrome | 17:44 |
| fenn | i'm not talking about the oxidative theory of aging | 17:45 |
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| fenn | alagebrium looked promising; it was in phase II clinical trials for heart disease before the company developing it (alteon) ran out of cash and was put on the chopping block | 17:47 |
| streety | I remember reading something about the typical high fat diets used in research using linoleic acid (?) which is supposedly particularly bad | 17:47 |
| fenn | most dietary research is on mice, which, being rodents, can tolerate different fatty acids than humans | 17:47 |
| fenn | you'd think this would be obviously a stupid thing to do, but there it is | 17:48 |
| nmz787 | i drink lots of half n half | 17:48 |
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| fenn | "It is abundant in many vegetable oils, comprising over half (by weight) of poppy seed, safflower, sunflower, and corn oils." in other words, they use it because it's cheap | 17:49 |
| fenn | surprised they didnt say soybean. i'm gonna fix that right now | 17:50 |
| streety | have to watch the costs of the feed, it's not like it costs much for housing, ELISA kits, PCR reagents etc | 17:52 |
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| nmz787 | this might interest some folks https://www.icracked.com/apply | 17:54 |
| nmz787 | supposedly the guesstimate margin for them is $52 | 17:55 |
| nmz787 | per job, which likely takes 13-60 mins | 17:55 |
| fenn | streety: supposedly human growth hormone will reverse aging, but nobody is researching this and it's illegal and persecuted in the same way anabolic steroids are | 18:05 |
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| streety | is anyone biobanking blood and tissue samples when relatively young to assess longevity treatments at a more advanced age? | 18:11 |
| fenn | what would be the purpose of that? | 18:12 |
| fenn | just in case it becomes useful? | 18:12 |
| streety | essentially | 18:15 |
| fenn | i heard google and facebook offer free egg banking for their employees, presumably so they dont have to take maternity leave on the company's dime | 18:16 |
| streety | as we learn more about what is important we have the option of getting baselines from a more youthful time | 18:16 |
| streety | I've heard the same, seems kind of messed up | 18:16 |
| fenn | well i dont have any better ideas | 18:17 |
| fenn | the alternative is women get to decide between their career and a family | 18:17 |
| streety | I would hope some sort of workable compromise could be found | 18:22 |
| streety | also, it seems somewhat gimmicky . . . as far as I know google and facebook aren't known for their low salaries. Could the employees not afford it without support? | 18:24 |
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| fenn | they can also afford to buy lunch, but that's not the point | 18:26 |
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| streety | fair point | 18:29 |
| jackybgood | paperbot http://thorax.bmj.com/content/early/2013/02/05/thoraxjnl-2013-203224.extract | 18:34 |
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| jackybgood | paperbot http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23390140 | 18:41 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1136%2Fthoraxjnl-2013-203224 | 18:41 |
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| fenn | streety i thought this was interesting, especially with all the other beneficial things ss-31 does: https://www.fightaging.org/archives/2013/05/mitochondrially-targeted-antioxidant-ss-31-reverses-some-measures-of-aging-in-muscle.php | 18:48 |
| fenn | still learning about it | 18:48 |
| fenn | .title http://vimeo.com/52645372 | 18:50 |
| yoleaux | Chris Masterjohn — Oxidative Stress & Carbohydrate Intolerance: An Ancestral Perspective on Vimeo | 18:50 |
| fenn | i learned about it from this video | 18:51 |
| streety | looks like they only looked one hour after the treatment | 18:53 |
| streety | would be interesting to see if it persists | 18:53 |
| streety | forget that, I missed the bit about 8 day treatment | 18:55 |
| fenn | it's still a good point, whether it is simply a pharmacological dose dependent effect, or a permanent reversal of some damage | 18:56 |
| streety | yeah, with it requiring injection it would be nice if you didn't need to dose with it for long | 18:59 |
| fenn | it may be possible to take orally because it's such a short peptide | 19:05 |
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| streety | paperbot http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/ars.2007.1892 | 19:11 |
| fenn | fuck everywhere requires cookies for no reason now | 19:12 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/Mitochondria_Targeted_Cytoprotective_Peptides.pdf | 19:14 |
| streety | thanks, I do have access but paperbot is a whole lot faster than logging in to the proxy, navigating to the journal, finding the paper, downloading . . . | 19:16 |
| fenn | mostly i was annoyed because instead of showing the abstract or whatever it just blocked me with a 'nanananabooboo no cookies for you-oo' | 19:18 |
| streety | "we may anticipate reasonably good oral absorption for these peptides. Furthermore, oral administration of SS-02 produced dose-dependent analgesia in mice (Szeto, unpublished results), demonstrating that these SS peptides are orally active." | 19:18 |
| streety | sounds promising | 19:18 |
| fenn | i wonder if mitochondrial oxidative damage is why everything dies after being unfrozen | 19:21 |
| fenn | like it will look around, act normal, then keel over | 19:21 |
| jrayhawk_ | apoptosis is the problem, there, and mitochondria are a big part of apoptotic signalling, but i am curious as to what you're proposing, mechanistically | 19:28 |
| fenn | i remember reading about how after people drowned in cold water they would try to revive them, and they'd die after being awake for a minute. then they started slowly reviving them by gradually increasing the blood oxygen content and they survived. this makes me think that the oxygen radical generating part of the metabolism starts up before the antioxidant-generating metabolism | 19:32 |
| fenn | so the mitochondria is spewing out radicals for one minute and can't catch up to itself | 19:33 |
| streety | that more ischemia reperfusion than freezing | 19:37 |
| fenn | "Oxidative stress also plays a role in the ischemic cascade due to oxygen reperfusion injury following hypoxia." | 19:39 |
| fenn | right but you can't be frozen and also have blood bringing oxygen to the cells | 19:40 |
| streety | people don't freeze in cold water though | 19:43 |
| streety | their body temperature drops but not so far they actually freeze | 19:43 |
| fenn | "The actual cause of death in cold water is usually the bodily reactions to heat loss and to freezing water, rather than hypothermia (loss of core temperature) itself. ... massive increase in blood pressure and cardiac strain leading to cardiac arrest, and panic) ... and exhaustion and unconsciousness cause drowning" | 19:44 |
| fenn | so drowning and extreme hypothermia are often coincident | 19:45 |
| fenn | ok my brain is not working, bbl | 19:46 |
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| kanzure | 20:09 <@gmaxwell> take the boolean circuit for it, and lay it out with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toffoli_gate then make a mirror of the curcuit which 'uncomputes' the function, gobbling up all the garbage produced by the forward direction and giving you your input back. | 20:11 |
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| nmz787 | maybe i'll be an internet pop-up ad for halloween | 20:39 |
| nmz787 | 'Nanostructures of virtually any 3-dimensional shape can be deposited using computer-controlled scanning of electron beam.' | 20:47 |
| nmz787 | "Only the starting point has to be attached to the substrate, the rest of the structure can be free standing." | 20:47 |
| nmz787 | seems to me that electron beams and optics is achievable for lower cost than it is now... I think the main limitation is vacuum | 20:48 |
| nmz787 | and maybe also the HV electronics | 20:48 |
| nmz787 | or maybe neutral gas optics | 20:53 |
| nmz787 | 'By using a STEM and a high-angle detector, it is possible to form atomic resolution images where the contrast is directly related to the atomic number (z-contrast image). ' | 20:55 |
| nmz787 | .wik Scanning transmission electron microscopy | 20:55 |
| yoleaux | "A scanning transmission electron microscope (STEM) is a type of transmission electron microscope (TEM). Pronunciation is [stem] or [esti:i:em]. As with any transmission illumination scheme, the electrons pass through a sufficiently thin specimen." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scanning_transmission_electron_microscopy | 20:55 |
| nmz787 | but you can get similar data with an SEM and some data processing with your detector also at high-angle | 20:56 |
| nmz787 | .wik Kikuchi line | 20:56 |
| yoleaux | "Kikuchi lines pair up to form bands in electron diffraction from single crystal specimens, there to serve as "roads in orientation-space" for microscopists not certain at what they are looking. In transmission electron microscopes, they are easily seen in diffraction from regions of the specimen thick enough for multiple scattering. …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kikuchi_line | 20:56 |
| nmz787 | so that gives more crystal orientation than atomic number | 20:57 |
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| nmz787 | ' On cleaved surfaces, and surfaces self-assembled on the atomic scale, electron channeling patterns are likely to see growing application with modern microscopes in the years ahead.' | 21:25 |
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| drazak | kanzure: know anyone who would have poured a sephadex column? | 21:47 |
| fenn | i've never heard anything on the radio like this http://fennetic.net/irc/01_-_Elektrobank_(Radio_Edit).mp3 | 22:05 |
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| delinquentme | huk huk huk | 22:53 |
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