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| archels | The Oxbridge Biotech Roundtable (OBR) and SR One, the venture capital arm of GlaxoSmithKline, have teamed up again for the OneStart competition - the largest life sciences / health care accelerator programme in the world - to offer young innovators from all disciplines the chance to win £100k (€125k) with free lab space near London, and ongoing legal and business advice from our sponsors to transform their ideas into a successful business. | 03:05 |
|---|---|---|
| archels | (deadline Dec 1st) | 03:06 |
| kanzure | hrm. | 03:54 |
| kanzure | "the chance to win" | 03:55 |
| kanzure | that's a weird way to offer venture capital | 03:55 |
| kanzure | dingo_: see pm | 04:09 |
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| kanzure | yo eudoxia | 04:17 |
| eudoxia | hey kanzure | 04:18 |
| kanzure | what is up | 04:31 |
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| eudoxia | not much, i've been studying for college and that's pretty much it | 04:33 |
| eudoxia | what have you been up to? | 04:34 |
| kanzure | fielding requests for intros to that talent agency, trying to explain why i can't intro everyone simultaneously -_- | 04:35 |
| kanzure | this is a full time job itself | 04:35 |
| eudoxia | is that agency's name pronounced 'ten x' or 'ten times' | 04:35 |
| kanzure | "ten x" | 04:38 |
| kanzure | you should skip college | 04:47 |
| eudoxia | haha i probably should | 04:49 |
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| NilsHitze | jo | 04:54 |
| kanzure | hi | 04:54 |
| NilsHitze | how're things? | 04:54 |
| kanzure | pretty great | 04:54 |
| NilsHitze | what are you up to these days? | 04:57 |
| kanzure | bitcoin things | 05:00 |
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| NilsHitze | mh - not nano stuff? | 05:12 |
| NilsHitze | implementing a strong AI into BTC? :) | 05:12 |
| * eudoxia is supposed to be rewriting nanoengineer | 05:13 | |
| kanzure | aauuuughhh kernel panic | 05:31 |
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| fenn | oh he is here too | 07:40 |
| NilsHitze | who | 07:45 |
| fenn | someone who is all about "compliance, quality, and learning" | 07:47 |
| fenn | just another lurker i guess | 07:50 |
| fenn | in other news, this is probably the most depressing thing i've read lately: http://www.city-journal.org/html/9_2_oh_to_be.html | 07:51 |
| fenn | .title | 07:51 |
| yoleaux | What is Poverty? by Theodore Dalrymple, City Journal Spring 1999 | 07:51 |
| fenn | "They eat alone, even if other members of the household are present, and never at table; they slump on a sofa in front of the television. Everyone in the household eats according to his own whim and timetable. ... English meals are thus solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short." | 07:54 |
| kanzure | "Fully Secure Functional Encryption without Obfuscation" http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/666.pdf | 07:55 |
| fenn | the signature of the beast | 07:56 |
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| Qfwfq | 0x29A | 07:56 |
| kanzure | "Efficient Generic Zero-Knowledge Proofs from Commitments" http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/934.pdf | 07:56 |
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| kanzure | ooh "HaTCh: Hardware Trojan Catcher" http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/943.pdf | 07:57 |
| fenn | are you just pasting links from a mailing list? | 07:59 |
| kanzure | i was reading last 7 days of http://eprint.iacr.org/eprint-bin/search.pl?last=7&title=1 | 08:00 |
| fenn | why isn't there a "school of applied cryptology" | 08:02 |
| kanzure | like https://crypto101.github.io/ ? | 08:03 |
| fenn | all these people writing math papers and meanwhile the whole fucking internet is broken | 08:03 |
| fenn | broken by design | 08:03 |
| kanzure | https://9d0df72831e4b345bb93-4b37fd03e6af34f2323bb971f72f0c0d.ssl.cf5.rackcdn.com/Crypto101.pdf | 08:03 |
| NilsHitze | later | 08:04 |
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| fenn | ugh i "upgraded" my comcast modem last night and now i'm down to 14kB/s download | 08:06 |
| kanzure | do you have the old firmware? | 08:07 |
| fenn | it's new hardware | 08:07 |
| fenn | rackcdn.com wouldn't be that slow would it? | 08:08 |
| kanzure | dunno | 08:09 |
| fenn | crypto101 looks like a decent book | 08:10 |
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| paperlooker | paperbot: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/11/13/1400229111.full.pdf | 08:15 |
| kanzure | "malware and its underground economy" https://www.coursera.org/course/malsoftware | 08:17 |
| Qfwfq | paperlooker: Let me know if you get hold of that paper? | 08:19 |
| paperlooker | Qfwfq: will do | 08:21 |
| Qfwfq | Thanks. | 08:21 |
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| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/femtorisks.pdf whatever that means | 08:28 |
| kanzure | "actors existing beneath the level of formal institutions" | 08:29 |
| kanzure | "aggressive financial innovators" | 08:29 |
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| kanzure | ", terrorists" | 08:29 |
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| fenn | terrists | 08:30 |
| fenn | trsts | 08:30 |
| fenn | i wish they would choose their units based on some measurable aspect of reality | 08:31 |
| fenn | "'femto' here does not mean literally something 15 orers of magnitude smaller than the macro scale..." | 08:32 |
| fenn | it just means "too small for us to bother thinking about what to call it" | 08:32 |
| fenn | also this is stupid because governments are made up of individual actors too | 08:33 |
| kanzure | of course it's stupid | 08:33 |
| kanzure | what were you hoping for | 08:33 |
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| fenn | something to justify having wasted 10 minutes on this paper | 08:34 |
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| kanzure | sunk cost. | 08:35 |
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| heath | governance through the blockchain | 09:22 |
| heath | links to a discussion on this? | 09:22 |
| heath | ~550k businesses created each month | 09:22 |
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| heath | i'm guessing those figures are specific to the US | 09:23 |
| heath | for governance, the only thing that comes to mind is generating stock and disbursing it | 09:25 |
| fenn | please explain your idea in more detail | 09:25 |
| heath | fenn: similar or exactly what medici will be doing, generate assets using counterparty and allow them to passed around | 09:27 |
| heath | to +be | 09:27 |
| heath | i was talking with otonomos and they are looking for a mvp | 09:30 |
| kanzure | what does that have to do with governance | 09:30 |
| heath | their tagline is "Online company formation and distributed governance through smart shares" | 09:31 |
| heath | are you asking how is shares in a company related to governance? | 09:32 |
| fenn | yes | 09:32 |
| heath | not a clue | 09:32 |
| kanzure | http://esharesinc.com/ | 09:32 |
| kanzure | shares are related to governance, but not a blockchain | 09:32 |
| kanzure | i mean, governance is related to shares, but not a blockchain | 09:32 |
| kanzure | you really have to watch out for people that are haplessly throwing blockchain concepts around: | 09:33 |
| kanzure | http://cointelegraph.com/news/112725/bitnation-core-dev-team-resigns-speaks-out-before-crowdsale | 09:33 |
| heath | it's related in the sense that you if someone owns a majority in a company, typically they have a say in how things are run | 09:33 |
| fenn | when you say "governance through blockchain" the first thing that comes to mind is not trading shares | 09:33 |
| heath | fenn: right | 09:34 |
| heath | i left the phone call scratching my head a bit | 09:34 |
| heath | but i like what they are doing right now | 09:34 |
| heath | allowing you to offshore your company easily | 09:34 |
| kanzure | very high levels of skepticism are recommended | 09:34 |
| kanzure | why does offshoring have to use a blockchain | 09:35 |
| heath | it doesn't | 09:35 |
| kanzure | wouldn't it be more efficient to.. not use a blockchain? | 09:35 |
| heath | they aren't using a blockchain | 09:35 |
| nmz787_i | .title http://arxiv.org/abs/1405.7729 | 09:35 |
| yoleaux | [1405.7729] The Fields of a Charged Particle in Hyperbolic Motion | 09:35 |
| fenn | lol why are people criticizing bitnation for not incorporating | 09:38 |
| kanzure | that's not the criticism | 09:39 |
| kanzure | i mean, that's one criticism, but there are many many others | 09:39 |
| kanzure | like having no technical basis in reality whatsoever | 09:39 |
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| fenn | having your dev team storm off in a huff will do that | 09:39 |
| kanzure | no, the dev team specifically said they were not developing the actual system | 09:39 |
| kanzure | (in that interview) | 09:39 |
| kanzure | and then they realized the operation was a giant scam | 09:40 |
| kanzure | and thought better about it | 09:40 |
| kanzure | you can't just throw random words together and say "that's my whitepaper, and it's a new cryptography primitive and it is magic" | 09:41 |
| fenn | it seems like a valid idea on the face of it; they're basically just providing a notarization and public records service | 09:41 |
| kanzure | but they aren't though | 09:42 |
| kanzure | that doesn't exist | 09:42 |
| fenn | so it's just pure investment fraud | 09:42 |
| fenn | actually i don't see what makes it any more or less a fraud than any altcoin or even bitcoin | 09:43 |
| kanzure | you don't see why altcoins are fraudulent? really? | 09:43 |
| fenn | it's just trading old pokemon playing cards | 09:44 |
| kanzure | if they are insecure then they are broken | 09:44 |
| kanzure | no... | 09:44 |
| kanzure | they are fundamentally insecure and broken. | 09:44 |
| kanzure | well, many of them. the vast majority of them. | 09:44 |
| kanzure | https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf | 09:44 |
| kanzure | https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf | 09:44 |
| fenn | i get the asic argument but i'm not familiar with the details of altcoins having to do with proof of stake, nor do i see its relevance to the discussion about bitnation | 09:47 |
| fenn | god this new comcast service sucks | 09:48 |
| kanzure | the point of reading about proof of stake is to see why altcoin designs can be bad and fraudulent | 09:49 |
| kanzure | when you compromise the design of a system you are breaking things, and ideas become invalid no matter what the marketing says | 09:50 |
| kanzure | and when you just scribble some stuff that makes no sense, that's still invalid | 09:51 |
| fenn | how is this different from a kickstarter | 09:51 |
| kanzure | i think funding for speculative research is fine, but it should be called "speculative research" and not "i have a secure system that does all these things that i have never implemented or that anyone else has implemented, and also blockchains because you know.. blockchains" | 09:52 |
| fenn | i guess bitnation should have just gone with kickstarter if they actually had cash flow problems funding development | 09:52 |
| heath | kanzure: i think you forgot to mention blockchains | 09:52 |
| kanzure | fenn: picking a place randomly and then saying "let's develop that" is a bad strategy. targets should be informed by reality and known constraints, rather than marketing claims. | 09:53 |
| fenn | also making a new coin (XBNX) is pointless | 09:53 |
| kanzure | not for them, they get to jump on the bandwagon of people buying altcoins | 09:53 |
| fenn | is it a duck or a rabbit | 09:54 |
| kanzure | next you're going to tell me "deploying a blockchain is just the same thing as using kickstarter, man" | 09:55 |
| fenn | no, i'm just saying their marketing claims are implementable | 09:55 |
| fenn | and asking for money without a solid product is the same as a kickstarter | 09:55 |
| kanzure | their claims were things like "transnational passports that are accepted in all countries within 2 years" | 09:55 |
| kanzure | "the blockchain will force other governments to accept your passport because magic" | 09:56 |
| fenn | i dont see that anywhere | 09:56 |
| fenn | also, that already exists | 09:56 |
| fenn | .wik fantasy passport | 09:56 |
| yoleaux | "A camouflage passport is a document, designed to look like a real passport, issued in the name of a non-existent country or entity. It may be sold with matching documents, such as an international driver's license, club membership card, insurance documents or similar supporting identity papers." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_passport | 09:56 |
| kanzure | what does that have to do with distributed consensus | 09:56 |
| fenn | in particular http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Service_Authority | 09:56 |
| fenn | er, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Passport | 09:57 |
| kanzure | "without a solid product" is not the same thing as "intentionally compromising on security for the sake of raising money" | 09:57 |
| heath | a passport idea https://github.com/MrChrisJ/World-Citizenship | 09:57 |
| kanzure | and "knowingly making false claims" | 09:57 |
| kanzure | andytoshi: can you give me a good example of an obviously broken altcoin whitepaper | 09:59 |
| kanzure | obvious-to-people-who-read | 09:59 |
| fenn | forget about "altcoins" for a moment | 09:59 |
| fenn | what is specifically wrong with bitnation | 09:59 |
| kanzure | it is an altcoin that is poorly implemented and has broken distributed consensus | 09:59 |
| fenn | ok | 10:00 |
| fenn | how does that help them raise money? | 10:01 |
| kanzure | there is a trend of people investing in anything that claims to be a blockchain | 10:01 |
| kanzure | and by "people" i mean... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=67.0 | 10:02 |
| fenn | howabout starting a company that certifies things as "blockchain approved" or whatever | 10:02 |
| fenn | because 99% of investors can't tell the difference | 10:03 |
| kanzure | so you want to use centralization to do.. what now? | 10:03 |
| kanzure | if you are okay with using centralization then why bother with distributed consensus at all? | 10:03 |
| fenn | to specialize in algorithm/implementation verification | 10:03 |
| heath | hm, i have to keep in mind that a CS degree doesn't imply algorithms, data structures, PL theory, or computational theory | 10:03 |
| fenn | heath: that's not a CS degree then | 10:04 |
| heath | fenn, agreed | 10:04 |
| heath | but i know of at least one uni which combined their cs and cis programs | 10:04 |
| heath | so anyone in the cis program is getting a cs degree | 10:04 |
| kanzure | fenn: so far the problem has been that the rate of production of bad whitepapers has been way higher than the capacity of capable reviewers (which is like <100 people worldwide) | 10:05 |
| heath | which means their knowledge is in ms office, html, css, js | 10:05 |
| kanzure | meanwhile.... http://mapofcoins.com/ | 10:05 |
| fenn | like i said earlier.. nobody is paying people to review whitepapers | 10:05 |
| kanzure | paying wouldn't work because then people who have raised large amounts of money already will just buy up all your time reviewing junk | 10:06 |
| fenn | then you don't certify anything | 10:06 |
| fenn | you could even have an anti-certification, "certified broken" | 10:06 |
| kanzure | ? | 10:06 |
| fenn | investors would pay to know that stuff they are thinking about investing in is broken | 10:06 |
| kanzure | i doubt it | 10:07 |
| kanzure | usually what happens is that someone in -wizards proposes an attack | 10:08 |
| kanzure | then the person comes up with a convoluted reason why the -wizards are wrong | 10:08 |
| kanzure | repeat forever | 10:08 |
| fenn | when you buy a house, you hire an inspector to make sure there aren't termites or a sagging foundation | 10:08 |
| fenn | if the inspector says "there are termites" and the seller says "there are no termites" who you gonna believe? | 10:08 |
| kanzure | you can physically look at the termites and termite damage | 10:08 |
| fenn | pretend you can't visit the house | 10:09 |
| kanzure | implementing an attack and showing the attack is much more costly than just doing a review | 10:09 |
| kanzure | yeah these people will pay basically anyone to say anything in favor of their decisions | 10:10 |
| fenn | i'm not sure how to get around that | 10:10 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure there is a way | 10:10 |
| fenn | have a really rich guy do the cert :P | 10:10 |
| fenn | (no i'm not serious) | 10:11 |
| fenn | if they had zillions of dollars why are they soliciting fraudulent investments? | 10:12 |
| kanzure | in some cases they genuinely think their idea is good or working | 10:12 |
| kanzure | sorry i didn't mean the authors would be the ones paying, i meant the people getting duped | 10:13 |
| kanzure | "tell me why i like this house so much. i heard it has termites, can i still buy it?" | 10:13 |
| fenn | professional smoke-blower | 10:15 |
| kanzure | and some of them don't really care if they are bad ideas anyway | 10:15 |
| kanzure | or broken, for that matter | 10:15 |
| fenn | yeah by the time it comes crashing down you will have sold off all your shares | 10:16 |
| kanzure | well not even that.. some of these are so broken that as soon as you send payment that's it. | 10:16 |
| kanzure | and then the funds are locked/broken/gone | 10:16 |
| fenn | the money has to go somewhere | 10:16 |
| kanzure | not always, see proof of burn | 10:16 |
| fenn | i guess with bitcoin it can disappear | 10:17 |
| kanzure | sure, like losing a private key or spending everything as a tx fee | 10:17 |
| fenn | tx fee goes to others tho | 10:17 |
| fenn | theoretically someone could bruteforce a "proof of burn" address, no? | 10:19 |
| kanzure | depends on what you mean by theoretically.... | 10:20 |
| fenn | with omniscient robot gods from the future | 10:20 |
| kanzure | i don't remember what the number is but does 10^1000000 count as theoretically possible? | 10:20 |
| fenn | yes | 10:20 |
| fenn | because there could be hidden weaknesses in the algorithm that don't break ordinary transactions, but if there's a huge amount sitting in one wallet it might be worth creating a jupiter brain just to crack it | 10:21 |
| fenn | this proof-of-burn article is too long | 10:22 |
| kanzure | link? | 10:22 |
| fenn | https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_burn | 10:22 |
| kanzure | hey that's much better than i was expecting | 10:23 |
| fenn | if 10% of bitcoins have been sent to 0000000000000000000000000000000000 then you can be sure people are trying to bruteforce it | 10:24 |
| kanzure | i could have sworn i saw some 1's in there when i first looked | 10:27 |
| fenn | 10^0000000000000000000000000000000 | 10:28 |
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| kanzure | jupiter brain would be much more capable of cracking a private key that has been used to sign many public transactions | 10:30 |
| fenn | sure but robot gods would be smart enough to switch to a different private key and not keep too much in any given wallet | 10:30 |
| kanzure | andytoshi: ping | 10:32 |
| kanzure | andytoshi: oh also you might like http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/The%20physics%20of%20information%20processing%20superobjects%20-%20Anders%20Sandberg%20-%201999.pdf | 10:33 |
| fenn | oh man here we go again with identity issues: " A "simulation" of proof-of-work at that level of detail would just be proof-of-work!" | 10:33 |
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| fenn | this is just pointless philosophy anyway, dancing around the question "can there ever be less than 21 million bitcoins?" | 10:35 |
| fenn | or "can bitcoins be destroyed" | 10:36 |
| kanzure | it depends on what you mean "existence" | 10:36 |
| fenn | and hence the no-philosophy rule | 10:36 |
| kanzure | do the bitcoins that have not been mined yet, "exist"? | 10:37 |
| fenn | mrrr | 10:37 |
| kanzure | and i don't mean philosophically.. i mean for whatever the question is that you're trying to answer (which i seem to have missed). | 10:37 |
| fenn | i was trying to show that "some of these are so broken that as soon as you send payment that's it" doesn't mean the money is gone forever | 10:38 |
| fenn | you're just donating to a young superintelligence | 10:38 |
| fenn | consider it a charity | 10:39 |
| kanzure | there are examples of "locked" bitcoin that are unrecoverable because of broken transactions | 10:39 |
| kanzure | i don't know where that list went though.. hrm. | 10:39 |
| fenn | 16th century spaniards probably thought the same thing about their sunken galleons | 10:39 |
| kanzure | i mean ultimately you can just rewrite the protocol and convince people to use that | 10:40 |
| kanzure | so there you go.. but you might as well just say "i can convince the world to change to any protocol i please" | 10:40 |
| fenn | sure and you can switch to silver instead of gold | 10:40 |
| fenn | but it doesn't make the gold disappear | 10:40 |
| kanzure | you have no concept of distributed consensus :( | 10:41 |
| kanzure | yes you can make blocks in the blockchain disappear | 10:42 |
| fenn | are you saying you can make the entire history of the blockchain disappear just by introducing some software change? | 10:42 |
| kanzure | locally, yes, and then "locally" as in "whoever adopts that software" | 10:43 |
| fenn | what would be the point | 10:43 |
| fenn | it's just an altcoin then | 10:43 |
| kanzure | and if the original blockchain that is more like bitcoin-as-it-is-known-today is suddenly not in the consensus set... welp.. it's no different from anyone else showing up with a weirdo chain and trying to claim it's the real one. | 10:43 |
| fenn | it's still real to the nodes running the old software | 10:45 |
| fenn | for the most part i agree though | 10:45 |
| fenn | 51% attacks exist | 10:45 |
| fenn | there would have to be a run on old-bitcoin to drop the value so low that nobody cared about it anymore | 10:47 |
| fenn | this could be triggered by a security flaw, or by satoshi spending his coins | 10:47 |
| fenn | and even then people would probably still trade them | 10:48 |
| kanzure | not necessarily | 10:48 |
| kanzure | suppose there's another chain that people have adopted | 10:49 |
| fenn | i mean they still use dinar and the syrian empire has been out of style since forever | 10:49 |
| kanzure | and is being mined more deliberately or in greater amounts than bitcoin | 10:49 |
| kanzure | the other chain becomes insecure | 10:49 |
| kanzure | because as the price of hashrate goes down so does the cost of an attack on that other blockchain with less miners | 10:49 |
| kanzure | s/with less miners/with less miners or hashrate or whatever the metric is | 10:49 |
| fenn | if you attack a weak blockchain it loses value, so why attack it? | 10:51 |
| kanzure | all sorts of reasons | 10:51 |
| kanzure | double spending | 10:51 |
| fenn | i guess you could do it to spite your enemies | 10:52 |
| kanzure | double spending is a pretty big incentive | 10:52 |
| fenn | wouldn't it be obvious that the network has been taken over? | 10:53 |
| fenn | i'm sorta out of my depth here | 10:53 |
| heath | hoverboard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSheVhmcYLA#t=51 | 10:54 |
| kanzure | double spending can happen because you pay someone (a merchant), attack, then pay yourself | 10:54 |
| kanzure | meanwhile merchant might still be processing your order | 10:54 |
| kanzure | or have already delivered | 10:54 |
| heath | reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFaOogd6YyA&src_vid=HSheVhmcYLA&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_1638093149 | 10:56 |
| kanzure | .title | 10:56 |
| yoleaux | HUVr Tech - Tony Hawk Reveals Hoverboard Prank - YouTube | 10:56 |
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| heath | hm, hendo hover is a real thing | 10:58 |
| heath | second video was related to some other prank video | 10:58 |
| fenn | they even referenced it at the end, if you had watched it | 10:58 |
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| heath | https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/142464853/hendo-hoverboards-worlds-first-real-hoverboard | 10:59 |
| fenn | it's just a quadcopter dude | 11:00 |
| fenn | except with no avionics | 11:01 |
| fenn | oh i'm wrong, apparently it uses eddy currents? | 11:04 |
| heath | yes | 11:05 |
| fenn | why would they do that; it means you cant hover over anything except good conductors | 11:05 |
| nmz787_i | it is neat to say the least | 11:09 |
| nmz787_i | i saw that a few weeks ago | 11:09 |
| nmz787_i | a metallized skate park doesn't seem out of the realm of possiblity | 11:10 |
| fenn | maybe with a strong enough field and really fast rotors it wouldn't need a specialized surface, but that's pretty out-there | 11:13 |
| fenn | you'd need compact high-current superconducting coils and a high specific power density energy source | 11:14 |
| fenn | it would probably kill any human within a few meters | 11:15 |
| fenn | unshielded human* | 11:15 |
| kanzure | hm. | 11:31 |
| fenn | why are coins round? | 11:34 |
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| paperlooker | the fact that people crowdfund a company which patents it's technology :/ | 11:36 |
| kanzure | wouldn't a jupiter brain have other things to be doing? | 11:36 |
| fenn | hmm "Square coins would wear off on the corners, as well as make holes in pockets. | 11:38 |
| fenn | not sure i believe that | 11:39 |
| fenn | http://chinesecoins.lyq.dk/History/knife_coins.htm predecessor to round coins | 11:39 |
| fenn | haha "attention all thieves, rich man approaching" http://chinesecoins.lyq.dk/MyBestCoins/content/_9683572751_large.html | 11:57 |
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| kanzure | szabo probably has a thing about it | 11:59 |
| kanzure | something about giant statues being used | 11:59 |
| kanzure | and making them round meant it was easier to roll them around between houses | 11:59 |
| kanzure | i don't know. sounded silly. | 11:59 |
| fenn | that doesn't seem to apply to the chinese warring states period | 12:00 |
| kanzure | "hplusroadmap wonders why coins are round" | 12:00 |
| heath | did anyone by chance watch transcendence? it was nice to bring the idea to the public, but i was a bit disappointed | 12:00 |
| chris_99 | yeah i watched it | 12:00 |
| chris_99 | it was ok, but a bit too actiony maybe | 12:00 |
| heath | he would distributed himself if he wanted to stay alive, and maybe that's what they were showing at the end, but i wanted more of the futuristic stuff :) | 12:01 |
| heath | would +have | 12:01 |
| fenn | this one can't figure out if it's a knife or a round http://chinesecoins.lyq.dk/MyBestCoins/content/_2579356985_large.html | 12:01 |
| fenn | many of these knife coins look like they would actually be useful as tools | 12:09 |
| fenn | it's really remarkable how little the writing has changed since then | 12:14 |
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| fenn | this is what physical bitcoins should look like http://chinesecoins.lyq.dk/ImagesHartill/Qing/content/_0623478244_large.html | 12:33 |
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| heath | .title https://iwilcox.me.uk/2014/proving-bitcoin-reserves | 12:35 |
| yoleaux | Proving Your Bitcoin Reserves | 12:35 |
| kanzure | heath: https://github.com/petertodd/python-merbinnertree | 12:38 |
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| fenn | the time traveler's son | 14:45 |
| fenn | he's his own grandpa | 14:46 |
| nmz787_i | .wik bolometer | 14:46 |
| yoleaux | "A bolometer (Greek: βολόμετρον "bolometron", meaning measurer (-μετρον) of thrown things (βολο-) ) is a device for measuring the power of incident electromagnetic radiation via the heating of a material with a temperature-dependent electrical resistance. It was invented in 1878 by the American astronomer Samuel Pierpont Langley." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolometer | 14:46 |
| nmz787_i | .translate bengali bolo | 14:49 |
| fenn | .tr is broken | 14:50 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, that command (.tr) crashed. | 14:50 |
| nmz787_i | anyway, bolo means something like | 14:50 |
| nmz787_i | 'speak' | 14:50 |
| nmz787_i | so I thought it was funny that a bolometer measures heat (or hot air) | 14:50 |
| fenn | apparently it measures thrown things | 14:51 |
| nmz787_i | what language does bolo mean throw? | 14:51 |
| fenn | greek (βολο-) | 14:52 |
| nmz787_i | ah | 14:52 |
| nmz787_i | right | 14:52 |
| nmz787_i | that lambda didn't compute as a phoneme | 14:52 |
| nmz787_i | beta-O-lambda-O | 14:53 |
| fenn | because mathematicians are bastards | 14:53 |
| JohanTitor | fenn: that would have to be a theorem in all possible axiomatic systems. Q.E.D. | 14:57 |
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| kragen | round is the shape you get by stamping faces on blobs of gold, I figured | 15:27 |
| kragen | I think the fluted Clovis points were plausibly used as coins too | 15:27 |
| kragen | lots of early stamped coins are only approximately round: http://www.fleur-de-coin.com/currency/greek-coin-history | 15:29 |
| kragen | although the shapes stamped on them were of all kinds of shapes | 15:29 |
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| kragen | my understanding is that basically the design on the coin served as a seal identifying the issuer and the assertion they were making about the coin in a difficult-to-forge fashion, in the same way that a seal in wax identifies the issuer | 15:34 |
| kragen | since at the time it was not practically possible to copy the die used for striking the coins | 15:34 |
| kragen | and typically the assertion was about the composition and weight of the coin | 15:35 |
| kragen | the process of striking makes the coin rounder | 15:36 |
| kragen | but approximately-round coins are vulnerable to clipping, so you got rounder coins and then, since the 16th century, milled edges | 15:38 |
| kragen | and since the 17th, text-engraved rims as well | 15:39 |
| kragen | hmm, apparently "ridged" or "grooved" are the normal terms for milled edges | 15:42 |
| kanzure | .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8630932 | 15:43 |
| yoleaux | Half of stars lurk outside galaxies | Hacker News | 15:43 |
| kanzure | "(MS decided windows programmers shouldn't be using asm anymore and they don't support inline asm with msvc on x86_64)" | 15:48 |
| kragen | that's amusing | 15:51 |
| kragen | I guess if you really care about performance at that level though you are probably not going to be programming a CPU | 15:52 |
| kanzure | or you're not going to be compiling any x86_64 projects with inline asm | 15:52 |
| kragen | I don't think I understand what you mean | 15:52 |
| kanzure | msvc is often used by windows people to do windows builds of projects | 15:53 |
| kanzure | sometimes these projects have inline asm | 15:53 |
| kragen | do they really? | 15:54 |
| kragen | I mean if MSVC on amd64 doesn't support inline asm, then that inline asm is going to be using GCC syntax or it's going to be i386 assembly | 15:54 |
| kanzure | huh? | 15:55 |
| kragen | so it's not like they're missing out on being able to compile existing codebases | 15:55 |
| kanzure | hm | 15:56 |
| kragen | presumably they still support compiling projects with inline i386 assembly if you're compiling for an i386 target | 15:56 |
| kanzure | i see. | 15:56 |
| kragen | and presumably they didn't at any time in the past support inline amd64 assembly or GCC inline assembly syntax | 15:56 |
| kragen | although these are lots of presumptions | 15:56 |
| kragen | but I don't think it's a backwards-compatibility obstacle unless those presumptions are wrong. | 15:58 |
| kragen | it is, however, a statement about how they expect people to be optimizing their code in the future: without using inline asm. | 15:58 |
| kragen | which probably means without using asm. | 15:58 |
| kragen | which is probably because if C isn't fast enough then you can get more mileage out of your GPU or out of SSE intrinsics than out of just writing shit in assembly. | 15:59 |
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| fenn | kragen: what i learned from looking at far too many ancient chinese coins is that: the overwhelming majority are cast, bear the name of the issuing authority, have a square hole in the center, have a rim, and are round | 16:44 |
| nmz787_i1 | doubles as a square nut-driver | 16:44 |
| fenn | what is the purpose of the square hole? | 16:44 |
| nmz787_i1 | for their square corked chinese medicine bottles | 16:44 |
| nmz787_i1 | or a 'key' for a water spigot | 16:45 |
| nmz787_i1 | http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31qHNHgiF1L._SY300_.jpg | 16:45 |
| nmz787_i1 | bam, square hole function determined | 16:45 |
| nmz787_i1 | guess this is more circular http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/037155/037155014866lg.jpg | 16:46 |
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| kragen | fenn: yes, I don't know why cast coins are round | 17:06 |
| kragen | and I don't know why Chinese coins have holes in them, let alone square ones | 17:07 |
| fenn | obviously so you can carry them on a string | 17:08 |
| fenn | before tables were widespread it would be difficult to make stacks, and they probably weren't regular enough to stack reliably | 17:09 |
| kragen | I guess a string is easier than a penny roll | 17:09 |
| kragen | is that a string of cash in your pocket? , or are you just happy to see me? | 17:09 |
| kanzure | pfft you people and your flat surfaces | 17:10 |
| fenn | the earlier knife money and ant-nose money also had holes | 17:10 |
| kragen | any idea on why it's square? | 17:12 |
| fenn | “The granaries in the cities and the countryside were full and the government treasuries were running over with wealth. In the capital the strings of cash had been stacked up by the hundreds of millions until the cords that bound them had rotted away and they could no longer be counted.” | 17:15 |
| fenn | oh here we go | 17:15 |
| fenn | "Most Chinese coins were produced with a square hole in the middle. This was used to allow collections of coins to be threaded on a square rod so that the rough edges could be filed smooth, and then threaded on strings for ease of handling." | 17:15 |
| fenn | so it is in fact a torque spline | 17:16 |
| kragen | "so that the rough edges could be filed smooth"? | 17:17 |
| fenn | there were a lot of coins with square holes that never got the smoothing treatment | 17:17 |
| kragen | oh. like by lathing the coin stack? | 17:18 |
| fenn | basically turning on a spindle (lathe is too classy a word for this sort of activity) | 17:18 |
| fenn | if you chuck a square bar up in a power drill, is it a lathe? (i think not) | 17:19 |
| fenn | the casting process leaves flash from the two halves of the mold | 17:20 |
| kragen | it's an Afghan lathe | 17:20 |
| fenn | "that's racist!" | 17:21 |
| kragen | no, Afghanistan is just poor | 17:21 |
| fenn | .title http://lumberjocks.com/projects/46616 | 17:22 |
| yoleaux | A Homemade Lathe, in Afghanistan - by David @ LumberJocks.com ~ woodworking community | 17:22 |
| fenn | why would they have power drills in afghanistan, they don't even have electricity | 17:22 |
| kragen | everyone has electricity, fenn | 17:23 |
| fenn | o right i forgot about the orbiting solar power satellites providing free electricity to the world | 17:23 |
| fenn | and the wardenclyffe transmitter | 17:23 |
| fenn | those silly afghans | 17:23 |
| kragen | I mean, that's my experience. there are actually people who don't have electricity, but very, very few | 17:24 |
| kragen | it's just a question of how expensive and how unreliable | 17:24 |
| kragen | and, well, what voltage and stuff like that | 17:24 |
| bbrittain | I've been in some places where they have electricity, but it's super spotty | 17:24 |
| bbrittain | like tibet | 17:25 |
| kragen | yeah | 17:25 |
| fenn | did they have power drills? | 17:25 |
| bbrittain | sure, they have TVs in some houses, but their school doesn't have lights | 17:25 |
| bbrittain | and yes, I actually saw a power drill | 17:25 |
| kragen | yeah, power drills come before TVs | 17:25 |
| kragen | ever drilled metal by hand? | 17:25 |
| fenn | yes | 17:25 |
| kragen | it's a pain in the ass, isn't it? | 17:26 |
| fenn | depends on the size of the hole | 17:26 |
| fenn | and the depth of the hole | 17:26 |
| bbrittain | the house I stayed in overnight in 青海 was hands down the wealthiest, they had a chinese carpenter staying there for a couple of weeks building and addition onto their house | 17:26 |
| bbrittain | but... I still had to shit in a dungpile outside | 17:26 |
| bbrittain | third world man :/ | 17:26 |
| fenn | really deep holes are hard to do because you break the bit, but larger holes are actually easier because most power drills go too fast | 17:27 |
| fenn | but large and deep holes are a pain, yes | 17:27 |
| fenn | is that "blue sea"? in tibet? | 17:28 |
| bbrittain | yea, it is. That place was actually on the tibetan plateu, not actualy tibet | 17:29 |
| kragen | power tools are huge labor svers | 17:29 |
| bbrittain | well... depends on if you respect chinese government boundries :P | 17:29 |
| kragen | savers | 17:29 |
| kragen | and you can run them off motor scooters if you have to | 17:29 |
| bbrittain | super huge lake. very cold. fun dunes to play on nearby. | 17:29 |
| fenn | kragen how does that work? | 17:30 |
| kragen | even the crappiest little two-stroke engine needs at least a glowplug to start, and usually sparkplugs | 17:30 |
| kragen | so they have batteries | 17:30 |
| fenn | they don't use magnetos? | 17:30 |
| kragen | hmm, I guess I haven't ever actually seen an ignition magneto | 17:31 |
| fenn | it looks like a transformer in that it's made of laminated plates | 17:31 |
| fenn | but it has a specific shape on the inside to control the magnetic flux | 17:32 |
| kragen | maybe there are motor scooters without batteries. I should ask one of the folks I see riding bicycles with retrofitted two-stroke engines around here | 17:32 |
| fenn | wtf | 17:34 |
| fenn | "The first ignition system to use an electric spark was probably Alessandro Volta's toy electric pistol from the 1780s." | 17:34 |
| kragen | anyway, though, motor scooters with batteries are common even in places like Pohnpei and Trujillo, Perú | 17:34 |
| kragen | and actually so are cars, which also have batteries | 17:34 |
| fenn | yeah | 17:34 |
| fenn | but in afghanistan there are lots of people who live in mud houses and their mode of transport is donkey | 17:35 |
| kragen | also true in those two places | 17:35 |
| kragen | I only mentioned them because I spent some time there, while I have never been to Afghanistan | 17:35 |
| fenn | right | 17:36 |
| fenn | i guess a lot of it depends on the social structure; whether you can borrow your neighbor's tools or not | 17:36 |
| kragen | yeah, if you're living in a Cormac McCarthy novel you may be SOL | 17:37 |
| fenn | gah that's the second time today someone's mentioned him | 17:37 |
| bkero | kragen: Nah. I've been living in All the Pretty Horses. It's been good so far. | 17:37 |
| kragen | bkero: that sounds interesting. how so? | 17:37 |
| ParahSailin_ | the money on a string was copper, so you needed lots of strings of 100 to pay for anything worthwhile | 17:40 |
| kragen | yeah | 17:40 |
| kragen | bkero: have you been stabbed frequently? | 17:41 |
| fenn | heh | 17:41 |
| bkero | kragen: sort of | 17:41 |
| bkero | Not in a Mexican prison though | 17:41 |
| kragen | that sucks. in a hospital, I hope? | 17:41 |
| kragen | that's the only place I've had people cutting me with knives, although I have gotten into a few scrapes involving bottles and chairs as weapons | 17:43 |
| kragen | so far I've been lucky enough not to get attacked with knives. known three people it happened to while I knew them, though | 17:44 |
| bkero | Brussels mostly | 17:46 |
| kragen | heroin? diabetes? | 17:48 |
| fenn | death by croissant | 17:48 |
| kragen | <belgians> we will stab you! with a croissant! | 17:49 |
| fenn | jeez in ancient china a horse was worth 3 years labor | 17:52 |
| kragen | that's a bit higher than today | 17:53 |
| kragen | well, in the US | 17:53 |
| kragen | here in Buenos Aires I see horse carts fairly regularly, although they've been illegal for almost a century | 17:54 |
| fenn | a horse was worth 3 cubic meters of polished white rice | 17:54 |
| kragen | that reminds me of "three tons of flax!" | 17:54 |
| fenn | about the same amount | 17:54 |
| kragen | apparently if you live outside the city a horse and cart has lower total cost of ownership than a pickup truck | 17:55 |
| kragen | in part because you don't have to buy gas | 17:55 |
| kragen | so lots of trash-pickers use horses to haul their recyclables around | 17:55 |
| fenn | rice is (lazyweb sez) 0.8 tonne/m^3 | 17:55 |
| kragen | I think it's a fair bet that the trash-pickers aren't investing three years of earnings in anything, let alone an animal that will die in a decade or two | 17:58 |
| kragen | so it seems likely that the price is a lot lower than that here and now, in terms of labor | 17:58 |
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| fenn | labor is worth more and the cost of raising the horse has fallen | 18:00 |
| kragen | I don't know, I imagine it takes about the same amount of labor to raise a horse now that it did 3000 years ago | 18:00 |
| fenn | depends on how you do it | 18:01 |
| fenn | i imagine it takes the same amount of labor to _train_ the horse | 18:01 |
| kragen | I think the cheapest way to do it is still how people did it 3000 years ago | 18:01 |
| fenn | round up wild horses? | 18:01 |
| kragen | I don't think there are horse breeding mills the way there are puppy mills to sell pet dogs | 18:02 |
| kragen | that have, like, optimized horse processing ruthlessly | 18:02 |
| fenn | "most pleasure riders can find a good-natured, healthy trail horse for less than $5,000" | 18:02 |
| kragen | you can round up wild horses, or you can raise them up from foals | 18:02 |
| fenn | presumably that means a trained horse | 18:03 |
| kragen | yeah, there's no way the cartoneros are paying US$5000 for their horses | 18:03 |
| fenn | "rail riders often choose Quarter Horses which can cost $1,000-$4,000" | 18:03 |
| fenn | "a $500 to $1000 horse. These are often youngsters with little training or handling, or horses with soundness, conformation or behavioral issues." | 18:04 |
| fenn | i guess it's like "how much does a car cost" | 18:05 |
| kragen | yeah, kinda | 18:05 |
| kragen | if you get a reservation car that only goes in reverse it can be pretty cheap | 18:05 |
| kragen | but you still have to put money into fixing and feeding it | 18:05 |
| fenn | the car or the horse | 18:06 |
| kragen | both | 18:06 |
| kragen | and I don't think breaking broncos has been the usual way of getting horses even in Mongol times, although I admit to ignorance here | 18:06 |
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| kragen | so I guess what I'm saying is that I think that three-years-of-labor thing must have been either anomalous (an unusually expensive horse) or due to artificially restricted supply | 18:07 |
| kragen | e.g. because the king didn't want peasants to ride around raiding | 18:07 |
| fenn | the horse was 3-4kg of minted bronze | 18:08 |
| kragen | so's your old man | 18:09 |
| bbrittain | FYI: more storytime, been to mongolia, still break their horses | 18:09 |
| bbrittain | they have sorta half pastures that people sorta have horses which are theres | 18:10 |
| bbrittain | but those horses are wild unbroken fuckers that will run away if you try to ride them and aren't a mongolian | 18:10 |
| bbrittain | I watched a guy almost get kicked in his face while trying to saddle it | 18:11 |
| bbrittain | it ran away | 18:11 |
| kanzure | they should just use clickers | 18:11 |
| fenn | rice was worth 1.7g bronze per kilogram of rice (?) | 18:11 |
| kragen | bbrittain: so even before breaking, the horses have owners who take responsibility for feeding them? or not really? | 18:12 |
| bbrittain | kragen: nah, they don't feed em | 18:12 |
| bbrittain | and keep in mind they are still semi-nomadic | 18:12 |
| bbrittain | but they feel a responsability to the herd they are at the time using | 18:12 |
| kragen | I guess I'm trying to figure out how this affects the cost of horses | 18:13 |
| fenn | so the horse is like family? | 18:13 |
| kragen | or if people even buy and sell them | 18:13 |
| bbrittain | this goes beyond my mongolian horse knowledge, I was only there for like 4 days | 18:14 |
| bbrittain | but I sorta got frostbite riding one | 18:14 |
| bbrittain | payed some nomads ~$7 dollars since there weren't any tourst establishments open in the winter | 18:15 |
| bbrittain | fucking cold | 18:15 |
| fenn | all four seasons in a day | 18:15 |
| kragen | thank you! | 18:16 |
| kragen | I guess I don't know enough to have a sensible opinion | 18:16 |
| * bbrittain feels that way all the time | 18:16 | |
| delinquentme | lel http://techcrunch.com/2014/11/19/mozilla-partners-with-yahoo-which-will-become-the-default-search-engine-in-firefox-next-month/?ncid=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Techcrunch+%28TechCrunch%29&utm_content=FaceBook | 18:17 |
| delinquentme | oh geeze. shoulda cleaned that. | 18:17 |
| delinquentme | dealwithit.jpg | 18:17 |
| bbrittain | ugh, just link to chris beard's announcement | 18:17 |
| kragen | from a Facebook group I'm in, translated from Spanish: "Hey, I have earlier photos of your dick, Sean :P But it was censored by Jill's cunt. BTW, the photo confuses me; your foreskin pulls WAY back, or are you circumcised?" | 18:17 |
| bbrittain | https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/11/19/promoting-choice-and-innovation-on-the-web/ | 18:17 |
| fenn | "thank you for accompanying us on this incredible journey" | 18:18 |
| bbrittain | I may feel more strongly about this than the average person since I've worked at Mozilla in the past but... GOOD RIDANCE GOOGLE. GO AWAY NOW PLZ. | 18:18 |
| kragen | "thank you for accompanying us on this incredible journey" is how I'm feeling about this Facebook group | 18:18 |
| kragen | although I haven't posted any dick pics myself, and I probably won't | 18:19 |
| fenn | yahoo's search results now look a lot like google's | 18:20 |
| kragen | heh, his wife answered and confirmed that he's circumcised. | 18:23 |
| fenn | if you had switched the logos and changed the purple map marker, i wouldn't have noticed the difference | 18:24 |
| fenn | i doubt the average user knows the difference | 18:25 |
| kragen | what is the average user like these days? | 18:26 |
| fenn | your facebook friends | 18:27 |
| kragen | I'm pretty sure that "Jill" and "Sean" know the difference | 18:27 |
| fenn | ok i have no idea | 18:28 |
| fenn | "asian" apparently | 18:28 |
| kragen | I think "Sean" just registered a domain name in a couple of different country codes, for all that he uploaded his dick pic to Tinypic instead of his own server | 18:29 |
| fenn | "sean" uploaded his own pic? | 18:30 |
| kragen | yes | 18:33 |
| fenn | i love these kind of distorted maps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:InternetPopulation2011_DeSabbata_Graham_OII.png | 18:33 |
| kragen | "Well, I took dick pics, for the first time. But after J's [dick pics], I feel inhibited. :D" | 18:34 |
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| kragen | (presumably because J's provoked rave reviews from (especially) the women in the group, along with incredulity and curious questions about the physical integrity of his girlfriend's genitalia) | 18:37 |
| kragen | that distorted map is awesome | 18:37 |
| kragen | I have a hard time telling most of the colors apart though | 18:38 |
| fenn | 25% of internet users are chinese but only 4% of internet content is in the chinese language | 18:40 |
| kragen | that's amazing | 18:41 |
| kragen | what percentage speak English? | 18:41 |
| kragen | I'm guessing Spanish is #2 | 18:41 |
| fenn | 27% speak english and 8% speak spanish | 18:41 |
| kragen | and not just from the captions teenagers put on the photos they upload of their bare breasts to Facebook | 18:41 |
| fenn | 50% of content is english and 5% spanish | 18:41 |
| bkero | Yeah, we ditched Google | 18:42 |
| bkero | For everybody else | 18:42 |
| kragen | is there something between 50% and 5%? Japanese, German, Dutch? | 18:43 |
| fenn | russian is 6%, and "other" is 11% | 18:43 |
| fenn | i'm just reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Internet_usage | 18:44 |
| kragen | Russian, naturally | 18:44 |
| fenn | "other" is a surprisingly large chunk | 18:44 |
| fenn | well the soviets did invent the internats | 18:44 |
| kragen | I think you could rephrase the Long Tail hypothesis as '"other" is a surprisingly large chunk' | 18:45 |
| kragen | which illuminates how non-falsifiable it is | 18:45 |
| fenn | other is usually not such a big chunk | 18:45 |
| fenn | it's usually less than 5% | 18:46 |
| fenn | in whatever context | 18:46 |
| kanzure | "argues that products in low demand or that have a low sales volume can collectively build a better market share than its rivals" | 18:46 |
| kanzure | yes well, not having something in stock is a good way to miss a sale | 18:47 |
| kanzure | "1) where the price of carrying additional inventory approaches zero and 2) where consumers have strong and heterogeneous preferences" | 18:51 |
| fenn | i can't actually find a good statistical summary of salient characteristics of "the average internet user" | 18:51 |
| fenn | citizen soldiers of cyberia, we must commit to correct this deficit in our understanding | 18:54 |
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| kanzure | shrug, look at ad data or youtube viewerstats | 18:55 |
| fenn | but youtube is blocked in china (?) | 18:55 |
| kanzure | then pick tudou | 18:55 |
| ParahSailin_ | wut, its youku now | 18:56 |
| kanzure | damn it | 18:58 |
| fenn | ugh http://rack.1.mshcdn.com/media/ZgkyMDEyLzEyLzA0L2Y3L25pZWxzZW53ZWJiLmJkRi5qcGcKcAl0aHVtYgkxMjAweDk2MDA-/e2917948/2ed/nielsen-web-brands-sept09.jpg | 18:59 |
| fenn | i sure hope the long tail makes up for that | 19:00 |
| fenn | those 10 sites account for about 25% of time spent on internet | 19:01 |
| fenn | 15% of waking time | 19:02 |
| fenn | "trailing TV by a significant margin" | 19:02 |
| kragen | fenn: those 10 sites trail TV, or the internet as a whole does? | 19:03 |
| fenn | internet usage as a whole | 19:04 |
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| fenn | 2009 data from nielsen group says 68 hours spent on internet and 141 hours on tv per month | 19:04 |
| kragen | probably better now | 19:05 |
| kragen | that was basically pre-Facebook, and it was pre-Facetime and pre-WhatsApp | 19:05 |
| kragen | and pre-Farmville, no? | 19:06 |
| kragen | the dick thread continues. Another girl volunteers, "Once I fucked a circumcised dude and didn't know how to beat him off." | 19:06 |
| kragen | Me: "So what did you end up doing?" | 19:07 |
| kragen | Her: "I sucked it." | 19:07 |
| kragen | I have a hard time imagining that most people are intentionally choosing to watch TV rather than swap war stories about embarrassing or difficult sexual encounters online. | 19:09 |
| fenn | 2013 TV usage in US was 84 hours per month | 19:11 |
| kragen | that's down almost 40%!!!! | 19:11 |
| fenn | this is BLS data so it may not be an accurate comparison | 19:12 |
| fenn | i dunno.. this survey sucks, "How do you spend your leisure time? [ ] Socializing and communicating" | 19:14 |
| kragen | 2009 was also pre-BuzzFeed and pre-Upworthy and sort of pre-Vice-Media | 19:14 |
| fenn | is vice really that mainstream now? | 19:14 |
| fenn | last i looked they were just getting started on HBO | 19:15 |
| kragen | I don't know how mainstream they are | 19:15 |
| fenn | in my mind vice magazine is what drug dealers read | 19:16 |
| kragen | they have 1368 videos on their YouTube channel, of which the two most popular have 12 million views | 19:16 |
| kragen | I am certain you are correct about that :) | 19:16 |
| kragen | amusingly though their most popular video is about tardigrades | 19:16 |
| fenn | weird | 19:16 |
| fenn | .gc tardigrade | 19:16 |
| yoleaux | 348,000 (site), 30,400 (api) | 19:17 |
| kragen | I don't know how tardigrades beat out "The biggest ass in Brazil" but they did | 19:17 |
| kragen | I mean I don't mean to be elitist but I am amazed that extremophile microbiology has mass popular appeal | 19:19 |
| kragen | particularly to an audience to which the video editors felt that the world "ubiquitous" needed a gloss | 19:22 |
| fenn | 2013 data from nielsen says 157 hours of TV per month, 14 (?) hours on facebook as part of 61 hours on internet (40% on a PC 60% on a phone) | 19:23 |
| kragen | that's less inspiring | 19:23 |
| fenn | o wait i added that up wrong | 19:23 |
| fenn | is netflix internet or tv? | 19:24 |
| kragen | I don't know | 19:24 |
| kragen | it's clearly internet | 19:24 |
| fenn | let's say tv | 19:24 |
| kragen | it might also be TV | 19:24 |
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| fenn | ah hell i dont know http://marketingland.com/wp-content/ml-loads/2014/02/Screen-Shot-2014-02-11-at-5.56.18-AM.png | 19:25 |
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| fenn | not sure how they got 157 out of that | 19:27 |
| kragen | 134 hours is still a lot | 19:28 |
| fenn | + 13 hours time shifted tv | 19:28 |
| kragen | yeah, no idea | 19:29 |
| fenn | that's one third of waking time | 19:29 |
| kragen | yeah | 19:29 |
| fenn | vs roughly 1/6 on the internet | 19:30 |
| kragen | merging the beginning of the "Biggest Ass in Brazil" video, "Russians love drinking and AK-47s, and Americans love just being fat sacks of useless shit, and Brazilians love having big asses" with Scott Alexander http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/ | 19:31 |
| kragen | I think we can deduce that Vice is squarely aimed at people who hate rednecks | 19:31 |
| kragen | which is to say, middle- to upper-class white people | 19:32 |
| fenn | TRIGGER WARNING: Contains Social Justice | 19:33 |
| kanzure | this plan is going down the gutter | 19:33 |
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| kragen | but it's, I guess obviously, not a particularly intellectually challenging piece of content | 19:34 |
| @kanzure | china-spam: "I'm Candy and we are glad to know that u’re on the market for PE granules. We specialize in manufacturing and exporting plastic raw materials for many years." | 19:35 |
| kragen | not that the tardigrade video is particularly so either | 19:35 |
| kragen | kanzure: related to your remark from yesterday about the necessity for Turing-Test-passing spambots, I've been getting lots of Project Gutenberg padding in my spam today | 19:36 |
| fenn | that's not at all new | 19:37 |
| kragen | no | 19:37 |
| kragen | but apparently they're still getting away with it | 19:38 |
| fenn | you got somethin against literate spambots? | 19:39 |
| kragen | well, it would seem that CAPTCHAs and more manual *TCHAs are, in the general case, how people defend against spam | 19:40 |
| @kanzure | i didn't say nothing about turing tests | 19:42 |
| kragen | but so far nobody is taking that challenge on seriously because there's still so much low-hanging fruit in spamming undiscriminating people | 19:42 |
| kragen | kanzure: you said it wasn't worthwhile to make spambots artificially intelligent | 19:43 |
| kragen | when we were talking about reputation metrics | 19:43 |
| @kanzure | something about "useful work" | 19:43 |
| kragen | yeah | 19:43 |
| @kanzure | to the spammers the bots are already doing extremely useful work | 19:43 |
| @kanzure | otherwise they wouldn't bother | 19:44 |
| fenn | if a spambot gets upvoted on reddit, it's presumably contributed something worthwhile | 19:44 |
| kragen | but we were talking about making the bots do useful work for the spammees so they would pay attention to the spam | 19:44 |
| fenn | (unless the whole voting system is compromised) | 19:44 |
| @kanzure | (of course it is) | 19:46 |
| kragen | not very | 19:47 |
| fenn | when spambots rule, only humans will be criminals | 19:47 |
| fenn | i mean, only the criminals will have humans | 19:47 |
| kragen | fenn: I think drug dealers watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKlpMxBX-jk&list=UU976cmBIr3xFimgrzPjc8pg | 19:48 |
| kragen | the #1 video on that channel has 14 million views | 19:48 |
| fenn | meh | 19:49 |
| fenn | .title | 19:49 |
| yoleaux | Insane Clown Posse - Juggalo Island - YouTube | 19:49 |
| @kanzure | kragen how can you go from so high signal to uh... not. | 19:49 |
| @kanzure | or is this fenn's fault | 19:50 |
| kragen | I'm interested in what is going on in popular culture | 19:50 |
| kragen | the topic here was "who is the average internet user" | 19:50 |
| kragen | admittedly that is a very difficult topic to get a handle on | 19:50 |
| fenn | i have an idea about what such a dataset might look like | 19:51 |
| fenn | but afaict it's not available | 19:51 |
| kragen | but I am pretty sure that the answer involves butts and music and online video | 19:51 |
| @kanzure | why would you be interested in data about the average internet user | 19:52 |
| kragen | but I don't think it is close to "Americans love just being fat sacks of useless shit," because that is a very minority viewpoint | 19:52 |
| @kanzure | why not "average coffee drinker" or some other totally boring thing | 19:52 |
| @kanzure | who cares whether or not it is minority argh | 19:52 |
| @kanzure | yes whether or not others accept a viewpoint influences whether or not it's right or wrong...... uh, no. | 19:53 |
| fenn | i think the usual idea is to learn how to better exploit them for your own gain | 19:53 |
| kragen | well, I wasn't opining on whether it was right or wrong | 19:53 |
| kragen | I was just saying that it means that Vice isn't aimed at drug dealers | 19:53 |
| kragen | it's aimed at what Scott Alexander is calling "the Blue Tribe" | 19:54 |
| fenn | pax dickinson | 19:54 |
| @kanzure | man you are going to kill this place | 19:54 |
| kragen | the people who will hear that statement and say "haha, yes, that's so right" | 19:54 |
| @kanzure | are you really this oblivious | 19:55 |
| kragen | I don't know what you mean | 19:55 |
| @kanzure | so yes.. hah. | 19:55 |
| kragen | I'm trying to figure out what are the mass media of the new century | 19:55 |
| fenn | have you finished beating off yet | 19:55 |
| kragen | Vice isn't it | 19:55 |
| fenn | (unfair question tactic) | 19:56 |
| kragen | heh | 19:56 |
| kragen | more likely it's something that gets people laid | 19:56 |
| kragen | like WhatsApp | 19:56 |
| kragen | or Facebook | 19:56 |
| @kanzure | can you go away | 19:56 |
| @kanzure | i don't know what sort of mood you're presently in but it's extremely destructive and detrimental to signal preservation | 19:59 |
| @kanzure | and it needs to be put into some other irc channel or other outlet that is not hplusroadmap | 19:59 |
| fenn | probably #lesswrong | 20:00 |
| @kanzure | i don't know, don't tell them i said that | 20:00 |
| @kanzure | s/plan/place | 20:01 |
| @kanzure | it would be nice if i was better at accurately identifying the mode of thought that i am trying to shoo away | 20:03 |
| @kanzure | maybe jrayhawk will pick up my slack | 20:03 |
| @kanzure | it's fairly subtle and not the usual sort of mess we get into around here | 20:03 |
| fenn | the crime was probably pasting stuff from facebook | 20:04 |
| @kanzure | ehhh part of the trend that i can't identify | 20:05 |
| @kanzure | s/can't/haven't | 20:05 |
| fenn | maybe it is me.. i can't say cause i'm biased | 20:06 |
| @kanzure | i mean, totally random stuff has been known to happen | 20:06 |
| fenn | ancient chinese coin minting practices seemed relevant at the time... | 20:07 |
| @kanzure | well they probably didn't have any other ideas | 20:07 |
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| delinquentme | internet cats. | 20:10 |
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| jrayhawk | fenn: pax correctly attributed it scott | 20:43 |
| delinquentme | Ok I need a given API ( python / js / ruby / xyz ) for a long running ( ~20min socket ? ) API connection .. which will run shell scripts | 20:53 |
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| fenn | my bad, i'm reading everything in reverse chronological order | 21:02 |
| fenn | huh. "a regular digital signature is a zero knowledge proof. it proves they know a secret without you learning anything about the secret" | 21:08 |
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| FAMAS | hello all | 21:18 |
| FAMAS | anyone know about euglena? | 21:27 |
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| FAMAS | anyone know about euglena? | 21:33 |
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| delinquentme | http://kotaku.com/expelled-from-paradise-is-ghost-in-the-shell-meets-trig-1660014154 | 22:05 |
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| superkuh | Linking kotaku. :| | 22:09 |
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| bkero | :/ mecha | 22:14 |
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