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| archels | I was just randomly wondering: how hard is it for a cubesat/picosat to escape high earth orbit and venture out into deep space? | 02:23 |
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| archels | do you need a sizeable rocket engine, or can you do it using some clever gravitational tricks? | 02:24 |
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| fenn | archels: http://clowder.net/hop/railroad/deltaveemap.html instead of wasting delta-v on circularizing your orbit, you can use it to increase the eccentricity instead and boost to hyperbolic transfer; this can be done with low-thrust high-isp propulsion, but there aren't yet any convenient large masses flying about in earth orbit to take advantage of | 03:17 |
| archels | ah, alright | 03:23 |
| fenn | this map is maybe more readable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-v_budget#Delta-vs_between_Earth.2C_Moon_and_Mars | 03:25 |
| archels | so space exploration with cubesats is not going to be feasible for a while | 03:25 |
| fenn | it's the same "distance" from geosynchronous transfer orbit (GTO) to circular geosynchronous orbit (GEO) as it is to lunar orbit | 03:26 |
| fenn | i wouldn't say that small satellites have any particular disadvantage besides being able to do less | 03:28 |
| fenn | either way you have to carry reaction mass and solar panels | 03:28 |
| fenn | it's the same situation with migrating geese; the distance they fly depends on the energy density of fat | 03:29 |
| archels | hehe, nice analogy | 03:30 |
| fenn | it's about the same energy density and efficiency as jet fuel, so the range of a goose and a jet is similar | 03:30 |
| archels | maybe a cubeset could in principle not carry enough propellant to escape earth's gravity well | 03:31 |
| archels | even from HEO rather than LEO | 03:31 |
| fenn | not according to any principles i know | 03:32 |
| fenn | most "cubesat" or whatever don't have any propulsion at all though | 03:33 |
| archels | yeah, I'm just wondering hypothetically | 03:35 |
| chris_99 | Can anyone recommend any cheap microfluidic places, the one i was looking at didn't have any chips < 100um deep, i've found the chip shop, but they don't seem to have any circular mixers in their catalogue | 03:36 |
| archels | so let's say the delta-v budget is 2500 m/s... then according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation we need an exhaust velocity of 1800 m/s to free a 10 kg cubesat with 7.5 kg propellant on board | 03:37 |
| archels | https://www.rocket.com/cubesat | 03:38 |
| archels | "picture coming soon" | 03:39 |
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| * ybit waves gm | 06:49 | |
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| ybit | http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/rein/ | 07:20 |
| ybit | .title | 07:20 |
| yoleaux | Decision-Making in Stem Cells - Microsoft Research | 07:20 |
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| kanzure | .title http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/08/22/brain.awu239 | 07:45 |
| yoleaux | A new case of complete primary cerebellar agenesis: clinical and imaging findings in a living patient | Brain | 07:45 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/08/22/brain.awu239 | 07:45 |
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| kanzure | archels: did you have any opinions about http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4010745/ ? | 07:48 |
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| archels | interesting theory, if a bit hyperbolic | 08:16 |
| archels | the stuff about RAM and ROM, learning to walk on two legs--that type of imprinting is certainly not unique to humans, but seems to be a general strategy of the (neo)cortex | 08:17 |
| archels | "However, comparative neurological studies demonstrate that the human brain does not contain any structures that are distinctly unique to humans. Rather, the brain has undergone expansion of pre-existing structures that have re-wired their connectivity (Mantini and Corbetta, 2013; Smaers and Soligo, 2013), leading to the creation of novel network architectures in the brain." | 08:18 |
| archels | these two sentences contradict one another | 08:18 |
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| kanzure | good catch | 08:32 |
| kanzure | i guess it really depends on what your definition of "unique to the human brain" is | 08:32 |
| kanzure | clearly there is some particular phenotype that is occurring here that is broadly applicable across each of the 7 billion human brains | 08:33 |
| kanzure | also, do the evolutionary biologists know whether language began happening before or after bipedalism? | 08:33 |
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| archels | depends on their definition of language | 08:42 |
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| ybit | .title http://research.microsoft.com/apps/mobile/ShowPage.aspx?page=/en-us/projects/SBT/ | 10:06 |
| yoleaux | Microsoft Research Mobile - Scenario-Based Tool for Biological Modeling | 10:06 |
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| kanzure | i tried one of those readcube links and it crashed my browser :) | 11:46 |
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| kanzure | hal finney talking about detweiler (hah) http://web.archive.org/web/20130513051807/http://finney.org/~hal/is_a_person.html | 12:19 |
| kanzure | for-pay remailers http://web.archive.org/web/20130513050640/http://finney.org/~hal/pay_remail.html | 12:20 |
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| kanzure | http://synbio.plos.org/2014/12/04/when-the-biohackers-arrive-at-igem/ | 13:18 |
| kanzure | why are community labs considered diybio | 13:18 |
| juri_ | because weekend warriors putting together kits are concidered hackers. | 13:20 |
| kanzure | so what? | 13:20 |
| kanzure | they are not called "non-institutionally-affiliated institutionally-affiliated hackers" | 13:21 |
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| nmz787_i | community labs seem like diybio to me | 13:37 |
| nmz787_i | only because diybio to me means something more to do with self-determination | 13:37 |
| nmz787_i | than institutional affiliation | 13:38 |
| juri_ | just like 'hacker' means 'doing something undocumented to try and advance technology' to me. | 13:38 |
| kanzure | juri_: your comments don't make any sense at all. | 13:41 |
| kanzure | yes it's true that different people have a different definition of hacker. so what? what does that have to do with this conversation? | 13:42 |
| juri_ | different people have a different definition of diybio. | 13:42 |
| kanzure | nmz787_i: self-determination is generally incompatible with institutional determination | 13:42 |
| kanzure | juri_: apparently not though. they don't even redefine it. they just use it carelessly. | 13:42 |
| juri_ | just like 'hacker'. | 13:42 |
| kanzure | huh? many people have proposed definitions of hacker | 13:43 |
| juri_ | and many use it horribly. | 13:43 |
| kanzure | most of those horrible uses have been defined, documented and generally refuted | 13:44 |
| juri_ | its an older term, that's the only difference i see. | 13:45 |
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| kanzure | anyway, let's assume that the word diybio has been hijacked | 13:46 |
| kanzure | give me a name that is impossible to hijack | 13:47 |
| kanzure | if you are unable to do this then you should be okay with me complaining about bad uses of words | 13:47 |
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| kanzure | you can't have it both ways | 13:47 |
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| juri_ | oh, i'm good with you complaining. | 13:48 |
| juri_ | you asked a question. i answered it. :) | 13:49 |
| kanzure | you answered it very poorly | 13:49 |
| juri_ | perhaps. | 13:50 |
| nmz787_i | what is this site? (has some pdf that someone online posted) http://rghost.net/59411897 | 13:53 |
| kanzure | russian hate site | 13:54 |
| kanzure | looks like something like megaupload or 0bin | 13:55 |
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| nmz787_i | "The production of lime for Roman concrete, however, is much cleaner, requiring temperatures that are two-thirds of that required for making Portland cement." | 14:10 |
| nmz787_i | .title http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2013/06/04/roman-concrete/ | 14:10 |
| yoleaux | To improve today’s concrete, do as the Romans did | 14:10 |
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| nmz787_i | " The not-so-secret ingredient is volcanic ash, which Romans combined with lime to form mortar. They packed this mortar and rock chunks into wooden molds immersed in seawater. Rather than battle the marine elements, Romans harnessed saltwater and made it an integral part of the concrete." | 14:12 |
| nmz787_i | "So why did the use of Roman concrete decrease? “As the Roman Empire declined, and shipping declined, the need for the seawater concrete declined,” said Jackson. “You could also argue that the original structures were built so well that, once they were in place, they didn’t need to be replaced.”" | 14:12 |
| nmz787_i | "While Roman concrete is durable, Monteiro said it is unlikely to replace modern concrete because it is not ideal for construction where faster hardening is needed." | 14:13 |
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| kragen | That's interesting! | 14:14 |
| nmz787_i | "The research began with initial funding from King Abdullah University of Science and Technology in Saudi Arabia (KAUST), which launched a research partnership with UC Berkeley in 2008. Monteiro noted that Saudi Arabia has “mountains of volcanic ash” that could potentially be used in concrete." | 14:14 |
| nmz787_i | oh kragen, I wanted to ask you if you knew about optical heterodyning? | 14:15 |
| kragen | no. I've been interested in it and I might even have kragen-tolled about it | 14:15 |
| kragen | but I don't know anything about it | 14:15 |
| nmz787_i | something you said about RF heterodyning (about the nonlinear element) was similar to a comment someone else mentioned when I asked about this previously somewhere | 14:16 |
| kragen | I mean the idea is simple enough: you feed a light wave through a nonlinear optical environment like the frequency-doubling crystals green lasers use, along with the signal you're trying to measure | 14:16 |
| kragen | and you get back an electromagnetic signal of the difference between the frequencies | 14:17 |
| kragen | but I don't even know if anyone has actually done this | 14:17 |
| kragen | let alone what the best way to do it is | 14:17 |
| kanzure | kragen: what would be the best way of estimating whether or not a certain amount of bandwidth or parallel-available-computation is required for human-like non-brain software to do human-like things? | 14:19 |
| kragen | apparently someone has: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_heterodyne_detection | 14:19 |
| kragen | first, understand how human-like brains do human-like things | 14:20 |
| kragen | the rest is easy | 14:20 |
| kanzure | suppose you know how... i am not sure that would help. | 14:20 |
| nmz787_i | kragen: yeah been done... should be same conceptually (and maybe mathematically) but using different system (you said a good nonlinear electronic element was what?) | 14:25 |
| nmz787_i | kragen: reason being, optical filters for IR are damn expensive | 14:25 |
| nmz787_i | kragen: so if you want to make an IR camera cheaper... maybe you can heterodyne it down to a visible freq that a cheaper detector can capture | 14:26 |
| kragen | a typical way to do infrared spectroscopy is with Fourier-transform spectroscopy to avoid the need for optical filters | 14:26 |
| nmz787_i | using multiple stages of say 1000nm lasers for the line input | 14:26 |
| kragen | that's an interesting idea | 14:26 |
| kragen | although | 14:26 |
| kragen | visible light is actually higher frequency than IR, not lower | 14:26 |
| nmz787_i | well in ftir you get a spectrum from a mixed source.... with this idea you want just a single band of that mixed source for the image signal | 14:27 |
| kragen | I said that even a diode works well for electronic heterodyning | 14:27 |
| kragen | but I don't actually know what typical radios use for a mixer | 14:27 |
| nmz787_i | oh, yeah, meant down in wavelength | 14:27 |
| kragen | .wik mixer electronics | 14:27 |
| yoleaux | "An electronic mixer is a device that combines two or more electrical or electronic signals into one or two composite output signals. There are two basic circuits that both use the term mixer, but they are very different types of circuits: additive mixers and multiplicative mixers." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_mixer | 14:27 |
| kragen | "The most popular are Gilbert cell mixers, diode mixers, diode ring mixers (ring modulation) and switching mixers" | 14:28 |
| nmz787_i | ftir would still be interesting, but the output of the ftir section would still need downconverted to visible for cheaper detection | 14:28 |
| nmz787_i | i think | 14:28 |
| nmz787_i | i actually have an old ftir at home | 14:28 |
| kragen | you mean upconverted | 14:28 |
| nmz787_i | err | 14:28 |
| nmz787_i | yea | 14:28 |
| nmz787_i | :P | 14:28 |
| nmz787_i | again thinking wavelength | 14:29 |
| nmz787_i | the FTIR is quite large, due in part to including a footlong HeNe laser | 14:29 |
| kragen | so I have this vague idea that anything with a nonunity refractive index will ultimately have nonlinear behavior in the limit as field strengths grow | 14:30 |
| kragen | like, in the limit of high field strength, the refractive index must eventually go away, drop to unity | 14:31 |
| kragen | I don't know if that's really true | 14:31 |
| kragen | but I mean things normally have indices because of higher permeability, which is due to mobile charge carriers, which can only move so far before they start to be metallic | 14:31 |
| kragen | and so at some point your permeability drops to ε₀, right? | 14:32 |
| kragen | all of this is maybe irrelevant since apparently the usual way to do optical heterodyning is to use the surface of your photodiode as the mixer | 14:32 |
| nmz787_i | hmm | 14:34 |
| nmz787_i | somewhat beyond me, especially since I am at work now and can't think about it fully | 14:34 |
| nmz787_i | but I could see a piece of glass with a doping gradient | 14:34 |
| nmz787_i | maybe being what you mean | 14:34 |
| kragen | or even just a piece of glass | 14:35 |
| kragen | maybe a piece of glass in a strong, rapidly varying electrical field | 14:35 |
| kragen | I guess I should learn more about nonlinear optics | 14:35 |
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| archels | OpenWorm have a new paper out http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fncom.2014.00137/full | 16:17 |
| kanzure | .title | 16:18 |
| yoleaux | Frontiers | OpenWorm: an open-science approach to modeling Caenorhabditis elegans | Frontiers in Computational Neuroscience | 16:18 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fncom.2014.00137/full | 16:18 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.3389%2Ffncom.2014.00137 | 16:18 |
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| ybit | https://gist.githubusercontent.com/heath/c93add4d88e6fef79889/raw/a550ea2aeacda975bdace12d0ff44985ceda800f/gistfile1.txt | 17:02 |
| ybit | it isn't clear that this is 2% equity | 17:03 |
| rkos | is papertbot working yet? | 17:04 |
| ybit | paperbot: http://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf | 17:04 |
| * ybit is just curious | 17:05 | |
| fenn | derp. i thought i had mirrored/backed up finney.org | 17:05 |
| kanzure | looks like nobody did | 17:09 |
| fenn | not sure what the motivation is for having "True Names" | 17:09 |
| fenn | maybe gwern did http://lesswrong.com/lw/7kg/rationalist_sites_worth_archiving/ | 17:10 |
| kanzure | when someone dies, fucking archive their site | 17:11 |
| kanzure | which reminds me.... steve coles. | 17:11 |
| kanzure | grg.org | 17:11 |
| kanzure | "Coles served as a visiting scientist for the Central Intelligence Agency's Office of Research and Development in Washington, D.C.[citation needed] and published with Aubrey de Grey, Leonid Gavrilov, and Jay Olshansky.[15] He was the treasurer of the Supercentenarian Research Foundation,[16] as well as co-founder and current system administrator of the Gerontology Research Group.[17]" | 17:12 |
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| ParahSailin | the scrollback of esr in #lesswrong ranting about global warming being leftist creationism is pretty hilarious | 17:30 |
| kanzure | he has done some good rants in his time | 17:31 |
| RedMEdic | Is lesswrong still freaking out about a super computer from the future torturing them forever? | 17:32 |
| kanzure | how'd i miss this one? https://github.com/kanzure/modelo/issues/5 | 17:35 |
| kanzure | cc dingo | 17:35 |
| yorick | RedMEdic: this never actually happened, dammit | 17:36 |
| yorick | RedMEdic: https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/2cm2eg/rokos_basilisk/cjjbqv1 | 17:36 |
| yorick | ParahSailin: yeah, when I woke up this morning I wouldn't have assigned a high probability to that happening | 17:37 |
| fenn | if the future doesn't cause the past, why is discussion of roko's basilisk "forbidden" | 17:38 |
| kanzure | i am pretty sure roko's basilisk is not the same thing i intended when i was mentioning steve's paralysis | 17:38 |
| fenn | is this all some elaborate in-joke? | 17:38 |
| kanzure | there's two separate things going on here | 17:38 |
| kanzure | yorick thinks he knows the other one | 17:39 |
| kanzure | fenn knows the one that yorick doesn't know | 17:39 |
| kanzure | i seem to know both things | 17:39 |
| RedMEdic | yorick Thats interesting | 17:39 |
| RedMEdic | Kanzure | 17:39 |
| RedMEdic | explain | 17:39 |
| RedMEdic | because now Im confused | 17:39 |
| yorick | kanzure, wat | 17:39 |
| kanzure | oh, i guess there is evidence for fenn knowing both things | 17:39 |
| yorick | kanzure: I was responding to RedMEdic, your mentionings of steve are long past | 17:40 |
| fenn | .title http://www.jeremysryan.com/1/post/2013/05/the-forbidden-knowledge-of-rokos-basilisk.html | 17:40 |
| yoleaux | The Forbidden Knowledge of Roko's Basilisk - Jeremy Scott Ryan | 17:40 |
| * fenn grumbles | 17:40 | |
| kanzure | "Roko's basilisk is a proposition that says an all-powerful artificial intelligence from the future may retroactively punish those who did not assist in bringing about its existence. It resembles a futurist version of Pascal's wager; an argument suggesting that people should take into account particular singularitarian ideas, or even donate money, by weighing up the prospect of punishment versus reward. Furthermore, the proposition says ... | 17:41 |
| kanzure | ... that merely knowing about it incurs the risk of punishment." | 17:41 |
| yorick | fenn: apparently if someone figures it out we're all tortured forever | 17:41 |
| kanzure | i am not really sure that steve's version is at all related to retroactive punishment or a specific proposition | 17:41 |
| kanzure | his version is more like "saying or not saying a thing in the present may cause an ai to become created that will do particularly bad things" | 17:42 |
| lichen | this is sounding awfully close to a religion | 17:42 |
| kanzure | "and then paralysis with evaluating those possibilities" | 17:42 |
| lichen | give tithe to the church to reach heaven | 17:42 |
| kanzure | "being careful about your current actions" is now a religion? | 17:42 |
| lichen | no | 17:42 |
| lichen | the | 17:42 |
| lichen | donate money, by weighing up the prospect of punishment versus reward. | 17:42 |
| fenn | hence the reference to pascal's wager | 17:43 |
| lichen | yes | 17:43 |
| kanzure | s/saying or not saying/doing or not doing | 17:43 |
| fenn | .wik speech act | 17:43 |
| yoleaux | "A speech act in linguistics and the philosophy of language is an utterance that has performative function in language and communication." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_act | 17:43 |
| kanzure | s/may cause/may be more or less likely by some unknown amount to | 17:44 |
| lichen | what incentive would such an ai have to punish actions before its exitence | 17:44 |
| kanzure | s/may cause/may be more or less likely by some unknown amount to cause | 17:44 |
| kanzure | incentives are a very human idea | 17:44 |
| kanzure | uh, for the record i don't really care for this particular wager | 17:44 |
| lichen | goal-oriented thinking and incentive to outside agents arent unthinkable though | 17:44 |
| lichen | moral punishment is harder to justify | 17:45 |
| fenn | it's not about moral punishent at all; you just invented that | 17:45 |
| yorick | but the thing would have no incentive to actually do it, unless someone figures out a decision-theory thing that makes it do it anyways, in which case we're all doomed | 17:45 |
| lichen | im asking what the reason would be | 17:45 |
| lichen | to punish actions that happened before its inception | 17:45 |
| lichen | beyond "revenge" | 17:45 |
| yorick | lichen: to incentivise us taking different actions | 17:46 |
| fenn | yorick: the thing (the ai) may be totally nuts by your rationalist standards | 17:46 |
| lichen | but isnt that a choice between no ai and no punishment versus ai and punishment for some? | 17:46 |
| RedMEdic | lichen: the AI is so advanced that it can accurately model your thoughts | 17:46 |
| RedMEdic | and so | 17:46 |
| yorick | lichen: yes, except someone *else* might make it | 17:46 |
| RedMEdic | wait | 17:46 |
| RedMEdic | no | 17:46 |
| lichen | true | 17:46 |
| lichen | sort of a prisoner's dilemma | 17:46 |
| RedMEdic | Sorry | 17:46 |
| RedMEdic | for a second Roccos Basilisk made perfect sense | 17:47 |
| RedMEdic | and then my brain farted | 17:47 |
| yorick | lichen: except if one guy defects that guy's in heaven and everyone else gets tortured forever | 17:47 |
| kanzure | whole thing is a fart | 17:47 |
| lichen | requires conspiracy of all of the actors to get the total no-punishment end | 17:47 |
| fenn | the conspiracy of apathy | 17:47 |
| yorick | if only nobody cared! wait | 17:48 |
| lichen | once the ai exists however, what is the reason to continue spending energy on the punishments? | 17:48 |
| fenn | i should write a SF novel about how nobody cared and nothing cool happened | 17:48 |
| fenn | we just went on making reality TV forever | 17:48 |
| lichen | isnt that kind of the subplot of blindsight | 17:48 |
| yorick | lichen: because knowing it knows we'd know that means it has to torture is or there's no incentive | 17:49 |
| lichen | its a trust issue then | 17:49 |
| lichen | it only needs sufficient reason to trust (faith) that the punishment will be there and continue | 17:49 |
| kanzure | why does lesswrong attract all this attention and thought | 17:50 |
| yorick | lichen: I mean, the christian god punishes people forever, it gets away with that | 17:50 |
| kanzure | i guess it's easier to think about "morality of future ai killing you" than sequencing a genome | 17:50 |
| lichen | pretty sure the christian religion is having a hard time finding new converts | 17:50 |
| fenn | this reminds me of mutually assured destruction; nobody ever actually nuked the world but it had real consequences anyway | 17:50 |
| yorick | kanzure: note that nobody actually thinks about it that much | 17:50 |
| kanzure | steve does | 17:50 |
| lichen | its a mental puzzle | 17:51 |
| kanzure | i would guess maybe constantly | 17:51 |
| kanzure | that's why i called it a paralysis | 17:51 |
| lichen | sequencing the genome takes tons of dedicated work and study | 17:51 |
| kanzure | yes | 17:51 |
| kanzure | so do answers to questions about ai | 17:51 |
| lichen | different scale of problem | 17:51 |
| kanzure | i would argue genome sequencing is easier | 17:51 |
| fenn | non-sequitur | 17:51 |
| fenn | p != np | 17:51 |
| yorick | kanzure: but the real question is, will thinking about genome sequencing instead of ai torture save you from ai torture? | 17:52 |
| kanzure | fenn, what would a really really slow or arbitrarily slow human-like general intelligence manifest as? assume it is not just a time-step delay, but that it in fact gets "practically real-time" input/sensory data. and that it can behave while doing whatever slow human-like general intelligence stuff. | 17:52 |
| fenn | probably not; there are a near infinite number of different reasons for an ai to want to torture you; gene sequencing may be one of them | 17:53 |
| lichen | i have no mouth and i must quibble about hypothetical ai deals | 17:53 |
| kanzure | i have not really seen too many "actually slow" human-like general intelligence implementations ever | 17:54 |
| fenn | kanzure: it would be like running sim city on "fast"? cars and planes and people and clouds would be flying around really fast and suddenly things have happened and/or everyone ignores you or you get a torrent of information | 17:55 |
| kanzure | when you say someone is slow, you very often don't mean literally slow. they can still do many things at normal human speed. | 17:55 |
| kanzure | well, so the most obvious way to run a slow human brain would be to give it input at a rate proportional to the speed that neurons are operating at for whatever simulation-time is... but that's not what i mean.. | 17:55 |
| kanzure | oh i didn't mean the internal viewpoint | 17:55 |
| kanzure | i meant external | 17:55 |
| fenn | it would literally move slowly unless its motor control was under some faster subprocess | 17:56 |
| kanzure | right, and then responses or discussion would probably just happen randomly? | 17:56 |
| kanzure | like a few weeks later, "i have now thought about what my favorite color is, and it is red" | 17:56 |
| kanzure | i don't know. | 17:56 |
| kanzure | that's not something that we see in humans | 17:57 |
| kanzure | they will just forget or something | 17:57 |
| lichen | would guess it would depend on how it keeps track of information subprocesses, short-term memory | 17:57 |
| lichen | thought fixation | 17:57 |
| fenn | the Mailman in True Names was like this | 17:58 |
| fenn | it didn't even bother with controlling a body though | 17:58 |
| kanzure | well, why doesn't that happen in humans though? even the ones with abnormal brains? | 17:58 |
| kanzure | it would seem that certain ideas are only attainable after some amount of "thinking" or "processing" | 17:58 |
| lichen | ive known people who act like that | 17:58 |
| fenn | it does, in cases of viral encephalitis that destroy dopaminergic neurons. haven't you seen "awakenings"? | 17:58 |
| kanzure | and presumably if you have some software, it has different performance on low-end hardware compared to high-end hardware | 17:58 |
| kanzure | so some general-intelligence-related software would operate differently on those hardware options | 17:59 |
| kanzure | (unless you were doing simulation-based time-lock-step stuff) | 17:59 |
| kanzure | no | 17:59 |
| fenn | not the movie but related: | 18:01 |
| fenn | .title http://youtu.be/QNum0dTYalk | 18:01 |
| yoleaux | Encephalitis Lethargica Awakenings Oliver Sacks with text - YouTube | 18:01 |
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| kanzure | why is he swaying | 18:03 |
| kanzure | is that how news happens | 18:03 |
| fenn | "great dignity" | 18:06 |
| fenn | holy crap 5 million people died of this disease | 18:08 |
| lichen | how have i never even heard of this disease | 18:08 |
| kanzure | "screw you guys i am going back to 1926" | 18:10 |
| fenn | the movie is pretty cool and adds a lot to this news story | 18:11 |
| fenn | in particular i'm remembering a scene where the lady is standing in the middle of the room and a visitor is watching her, asking "so she just stands there all day?" and sacks says "no, she's walking to the drinking fountain" and they watch for a half hour as she makes a couple steps towards the fountain | 18:12 |
| kanzure | hm. | 18:14 |
| kanzure | "There is also some evidence of an autoimmune origin with antibodies (IgG) from patients with encephalitis lethargica binding to neurons in the basal ganglia and mid-brain. Western immunoblotting showed that 95% of encephalitis lethargica patients had autoantibodies reactive against human basal ganglia antigens. By contrast, antibodies reactive against the basal ganglia were found in only 2-4% of child and adult controls (n = 173, P < ... | 18:15 |
| kanzure | ... 0.0001).[4]" | 18:15 |
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| fenn | yeah says elsewhere in the article that the 1918 flu might have triggered the autoimmune reaction | 18:16 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/127/1/21.full | 18:16 |
| kanzure | .title | 18:16 |
| yoleaux | Encephalitis lethargica syndrome: 20 new cases and evidence of basal ganglia autoimmunity | Brain | 18:16 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1093%2Fbrain%2Fawh008 | 18:16 |
| kanzure | hehe google scholar pulls up a "[pdf] angelfire.com" link | 18:17 |
| kanzure | http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=13981480527920112646&hl=en&as_sdt=0,44 | 18:17 |
| fenn | "To maintain morale, wartime censors minimized early reports of illness and mortality in Germany, Britain, France, and the United States; but papers were free to report the epidemic's effects in neutral Spain, creating a false impression of Spain as especially hard hit—thus the pandemic's nickname Spanish flu." | 18:20 |
| fenn | "17 million died in India, about 5% of the population" | 18:22 |
| fenn | "The deaths caused by the flu may have been overlooked due to the large numbers of deaths of young men in the war or as a result of injuries. When people read the obituaries, they saw the war or postwar deaths and the deaths from the influenza side by side. Particularly in Europe, where the war's toll was extremely high, the flu may not have had a great, separate, psychological impact, or may | 18:26 |
| fenn | have seemed a mere extension of the war's tragedies." | 18:26 |
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| kanzure | oh right, so here's an interesting definition of human-like intelligence, | 18:27 |
| kanzure | for the same number of repetitions it taks a child to learn something, given equivalent histories of input and responses, a human-like general intelligence should perform approximately as well as a human child or baby or something | 18:28 |
| kanzure | thankfully this is useless since you an't guarantee equivalent histories of inputs and responses | 18:29 |
| kanzure | *can't | 18:29 |
| fenn | but learning is not just about being exposed to data; it requires active participation and making choices about hypotheses to test | 18:29 |
| kanzure | certainly | 18:29 |
| fenn | also i think it's stupid to compare non-human whatever to human babies | 18:29 |
| kanzure | just as you would expect to be able to mentally replace any kid in some scenario with another equivalently aged kid, you should be able to expect to do the same with general intelligence | 18:30 |
| kanzure | yes it's probably stupid to do that | 18:30 |
| fenn | since intelligence levels off at 15 we can assume that the differences are simply due to the machine not being fully ready to function since it's not fully constructed | 18:30 |
| kanzure | but it's a little strange how underspecified reports of are monkey intelligence, specifically how they don't specify whether or not an upbringing was similar to that of a human child | 18:30 |
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| fenn | a) wrt intelligence, it doesn't matter much how humans were raised, and b) they have done experiments raising monkeys in a human family, i.e. Nim Chimpsky | 18:32 |
| kanzure | wait they really named one nim chimpsky? | 18:32 |
| fenn | er, was it washoe | 18:32 |
| kanzure | .wik nim chimpsky | 18:32 |
| yoleaux | "Nim Chimpsky (November 19, 1973 – March 10, 2000) was a chimpanzee who was the subject of an extended study of animal language acquisition (codenamed 6.001) at Columbia University, led by Herbert S. Terrace; the linguistic analysis was led by the psycholinguist Thomas Bever." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim_Chimpsky | 18:32 |
| kanzure | huh | 18:32 |
| fenn | "chimpanzee was raised like a human child. Washoe was given affection and participated in everyday social activity with her adoptive family. Her ability to communicate was far more developed than Nim's. Washoe lived 24 hours a day with her human family from birth. Nim at 2 weeks old was raised by a family in a home environment by human surrogate parents" | 18:33 |
| kanzure | "codenamed 6.001", wtf they named it after SICP? | 18:33 |
| fenn | project 6501 | 18:34 |
| kanzure | project sesame street | 18:34 |
| fenn | we raised a microcontroller as a human child from birth, giving it affection and encouragement to participate in everyday social activity with the adoptive family | 18:34 |
| kanzure | rip http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hd3IB-CKoaw/S7wFXNtboWI/AAAAAAAABs8/pkc9dFwnY4c/s1600/eIMG_0294.jpg | 18:36 |
| fenn | chip abuse!!! | 18:36 |
| fenn | goodbye, nim chipsky | 18:36 |
| kanzure | nym chipsky | 18:36 |
| fenn | do you think that would pass the google/facebook "real names" policy | 18:37 |
| fenn | oh they finally saw the light | 18:38 |
| kanzure | someone should make a linkedin profile for a chimp | 18:38 |
| kanzure | http://www.shutterbug.com/images/1012gagne02.jpg | 18:39 |
| kanzure | i think the "cognitive control loop" thing looks probably right | 18:40 |
| kanzure | i am not aware of much evidence of it being wrong or broken | 18:40 |
| kanzure | so maybe given enough long-term storage and if you wait long enough it will do things that seem to be evidence of general intelligence | 18:41 |
| kanzure | *wait long enough while running it | 18:41 |
| kanzure | although now that i think about it, i can't think of any experiments or concepts that could prove it's totally wrong | 18:43 |
| kanzure | and i don't like ideas that can't be refuted. | 18:43 |
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| fenn | what are you talking about | 18:43 |
| kanzure | page 4 figure 2 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Biologically%20based%20computational%20models%20of%20high-level%20cognition.pdf | 18:45 |
| kanzure | page 3 figure 3 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Towards%20an%20executive%20without%20a%20homunculus:%20computational%20models%20of%20the%20prefrontal%20cortex%20basal%20ganglia%20system.pdf | 18:45 |
| kanzure | page 6 figure 4 of http://arxiv.org/vc/arxiv/papers/1008/1008.5161v1.pdf | 18:45 |
| fenn | those figures should probably be shown side by side | 18:48 |
| fenn | is john burger part of o'reilly's group? | 18:49 |
| kanzure | nope just some random | 18:49 |
| kanzure | i haven't evaluated his other ideas | 18:49 |
| kanzure | his concept of short term memory is a little weird, he probably means working memory | 18:51 |
| fenn | "The Nim Chimpsky project failed in its attempt to replicate the results of Washoe. This failure is attributed to poor teaching, and to Nim being consistently isolated in a sterile laboratory environment, and often confined in cages, for his entire life. Nim did most of his learning in a white eight-by-eight laboratory room (with one of the walls containing a one-way mirror), where he was often | 18:56 |
| fenn | trained to use signs without the referent present. Living in this setting, Nim did not receive the same level of nurturing, affection, and life experience, and many have suggested that this impaired his cognitive development, as happens with human children subjected to such an environment." | 18:56 |
| fenn | i hadn't considered the possibility that they did everything in an empty white featureless room | 18:57 |
| fenn | who the hell comes up with these experiments | 18:58 |
| kanzure | "nurting and affection" can happen in a single room, so they are idiots for mentioning that | 18:58 |
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| kanzure | arguably nurting and affection don't matter compared to the problems of a single room | 18:58 |
| fenn | yes but it didn't happen | 18:58 |
| kanzure | *nurturing | 18:58 |
| kanzure | oh sure just praise him enough that'll help | 18:58 |
| fenn | "Terrace and his colleagues aimed to use more thorough experimental techniques" | 19:00 |
| fenn | Terrace sounds like a bad father | 19:01 |
| fenn | and a bad scientist | 19:02 |
| fenn | "Terrace ... was skeptical of Project Washoe and, according to the critics, went to great lengths to discredit it." | 19:02 |
| fenn | "we failed to replicate the experiment after following a completely different protocol" | 19:03 |
| fenn | i don't really get how people can say "animals don't have language" when i can say to my cat "go get your mouse" and she'll run off and fetch the toy mouse. what else is language but communicating by voice | 19:07 |
| fenn | grammar is just a feature of a particular protocol | 19:07 |
| kanzure | welp maybe you'll just have to raise your own chimp | 19:08 |
| fenn | i'd rather not | 19:08 |
| kanzure | i suppose it is impossible to make general intelligence as long as it is poorly defined | 19:12 |
| fenn | no it makes it easier *nyah* | 19:13 |
| kanzure | and impossible to evaluate ideas against said non-existing definition | 19:13 |
| fenn | "not even wrong" | 19:13 |
| kanzure | then how do you propose evaluating things like those control loop diagrams for whether or not they would make for an interesting or useful system with human-like brain-like abilities? | 19:14 |
| fenn | by implementing them and see what happens | 19:14 |
| nmz787 | there is an ape research facility like 5 miles from here. my gf's colleague's grandfather started it, and he grew up on the property at some point for some time during his childhood. | 19:14 |
| kanzure | "seeing what happens" is a bad strategy because you will never have a good limit for when you should stop using a particular technique or design | 19:15 |
| fenn | kanzure: it's sort of like the halting problem; you can't predict what a program will do unless you run it | 19:15 |
| kanzure | "continue to devote 100% of your resources to everything until one option turns out better than the rest" is a bad strategy, because you can't overallocate | 19:15 |
| kanzure | the halting problem wasn't about predicting what a program will do, what the fuck | 19:16 |
| kanzure | .wik halting problem | 19:16 |
| yoleaux | "In computability theory, the halting problem is the problem of determining, from a description of an arbitrary computer program and an input, whether the program will finish running or continue to run forever." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem | 19:16 |
| fenn | on the formal undecidability of allocating resources for brain-like systems | 19:16 |
| kanzure | except they are somewhat decidable | 19:17 |
| kanzure | for example, a system with 100 gigs of ram and no software will not do human-like general intelligence | 19:17 |
| kanzure | how can i know this? must be magic | 19:17 |
| fenn | it could be experiencing qualia and you not know it | 19:18 |
| kanzure | i wouldn't are | 19:18 |
| kanzure | *care | 19:18 |
| fenn | that's racist! | 19:18 |
| kanzure | i'm also not a vegetarian | 19:18 |
| fenn | so, uh, in absence of a definition how do you decide anything at all | 19:18 |
| kanzure | wasn't that calxism | 19:19 |
| fenn | "i know it when i see it" isn't the best answer, but it's an answer | 19:19 |
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| fenn | "The halting problem is an important undecidable decision problem; for more examples, see list of undecidable problems." | 19:20 |
| kanzure | i wonder if anyone has put a kid under an fmri to look at what's going on when they are attempting to make walking movements | 19:20 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_undecidable_problems | 19:20 |
| fenn | don't look at that page too long | 19:22 |
| kanzure | wait, were those "automaticity" authors arguing that young humans figure out walking with neocortex matter first, and then commit that to memory, or that in evolutionary history that may have happened but now the neocortex is not involved in learning to walk? | 19:22 |
| fenn | i'm pretty sure the neocortex is involved in learning to walk | 19:23 |
| fenn | also i think it's the "doing" that commits it to automatic memory (cerebellum) | 19:24 |
| kanzure | walking sounds like an okay test then | 19:25 |
| fenn | you could learn to walk, and then immediately get hit by a bus and never walk again, and then be healed many years later and not know how to walk | 19:25 |
| kanzure | and it can't be a bipedal walking-specific algorithm or system thingy | 19:25 |
| kanzure | that is cheating | 19:25 |
| fenn | vs a person who learned to walk, then walked for many years, was hit by a bus, healed, and remembered immediately how to walk ("like riding a bicycle") | 19:25 |
| fenn | it turns out a lot of the dynamics of walking are simply encoded in the human physical structure as pendulum masses and reflexes | 19:26 |
| fenn | watch movies http://ruina.tam.cornell.edu/research/topics/locomotion_and_robotics/3d_passive_dynamic/index.php | 19:27 |
| kanzure | does it fall like a human tends to when learning? | 19:28 |
| fenn | no motors or anything, just hinges and a tilted plane | 19:28 |
| fenn | it just falls, it's not like BigDog | 19:28 |
| kanzure | p. sure big dog is using an algorithm of some very specific kind | 19:29 |
| fenn | and we'll never know what that algorithm is | 19:29 |
| kanzure | matt (3scan matt) knows, iirc | 19:29 |
| kanzure | or at least a practically equivalent version | 19:29 |
| kanzure | actually i'm surprised you don't, given some similarities to dynamic balancing and kinematics | 19:29 |
| fenn | i've read some stuff about predicting motion in "wrench space" | 19:30 |
| kanzure | is wrench space about wrenches | 19:30 |
| fenn | bigdog has a lot of fancy computer vision and path planning that i don't really understand | 19:30 |
| fenn | wrench space is the set of possible torques and positions of a robot's joints | 19:31 |
| kanzure | "Passive-dynamic walkers are simple mechanical devices, composed of solid parts connected by joints, that walk stably down a slope. They have no motors or controllers, yet can have remarkably humanlike motions. This suggests that these machines are useful models of human locomotion; however, they cannot walk on level ground" | 19:31 |
| kanzure | my one fatal flaw | 19:31 |
| ybit | http://syntheticneurobiology.org/classes/ | 19:31 |
| fenn | they can walk on level ground if you add energy | 19:31 |
| ybit | ripple partners with earthport https://ripple.com/ripple-labs-earthport-announce-global-partnership/ | 19:32 |
| kanzure | don't even bother with ripple | 19:32 |
| kanzure | they changed their architecture and now it's not really distributd consensus | 19:32 |
| kanzure | https://wiki.ripple.com/Consensus#More_Details | 19:32 |
| kanzure | https://forum.ripple.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7801 | 19:32 |
| kanzure | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144471.0 | 19:33 |
| kanzure | and if you aren't going to be doing distributed consensus then what's the point of all that extra code? | 19:33 |
| ybit | damn | 19:33 |
| kanzure | and marketing >:( | 19:33 |
| kanzure | banks sure do love them some ripple though | 19:33 |
| ybit | thanks for the links | 19:33 |
| ybit | antha language: "programming language for biology" | 19:33 |
| ybit | https://github.com/antha-lang | 19:33 |
| ybit | http://www.antha-lang.org/ | 19:34 |
| ybit | using web components / google's polymer theme to make it look shiny | 19:35 |
| ybit | er material design theme | 19:35 |
| fenn | i use your CSS to decorate my bit bucket | 19:35 |
| RedMEdic | The hell | 19:35 |
| RedMEdic | How does that work | 19:36 |
| ybit | "An Antha protocol is intended to define the series of operations to be performed on a | 19:36 |
| ybit | single experimental sample. These samples can be replicated or run with varying parameter | 19:36 |
| ybit | values to define a larger-scale experiment. " | 19:36 |
| fenn | RedMEdic: be extremely skeptical of claims made about synthetic biology software | 19:36 |
| ybit | it's a language for defining protocols | 19:36 |
| kanzure | gross, visual workflows | 19:37 |
| kanzure | "Gene -> IN OrderGene(ProviderOfChoice)" | 19:37 |
| kanzure | oh come on this is ridiculous | 19:37 |
| kanzure | they should feel bad about themselves | 19:37 |
| RedMEdic | Yeah | 19:37 |
| kanzure | i'd even take https://www.transcriptic.com/platform/ over this | 19:37 |
| fenn | it's backwards from any normal object-oriented syntax, which would be provider.order_gene(gene) | 19:38 |
| ybit | i don't like antha's syntax | 19:38 |
| fenn | presumably it's to make it visually similar to their pipes diagram DAG thingy | 19:39 |
| kanzure | jonathan cline should release his plain english protocol lexer | 19:40 |
| kanzure | "no way guys i am going to keep it a secret and get rich by doing nothing" | 19:40 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20130513045337/http://finney.org/~hal/anti_observers.html "I wish Chaum and his group would stop directing their efforts towards protocols which require an observer chip to be effective. Granted, there are some things that don't work as nicely without observers. But I think that a realistic appraisal of the pros and cons suggests that non-observer protocols are more likely to further our ultimate goal of ... | 19:40 |
| kanzure | ... personal privacy." | 19:40 |
| fenn | was that just stuck in your brain-queue? | 19:41 |
| kanzure | some open tabs | 19:41 |
| fenn | PFC.sleep(1000); hand.emit(finneystuff) | 19:41 |
| kanzure | here he is talking about detweiler http://web.archive.org/web/20130513051807/http://finney.org/~hal/is_a_person.html | 19:41 |
| ybit | something to maybe look at later: https://github.com/codius/codius/wiki/Smart-Oracles:-A-Simple,-Powerful-Approach-to-Smart-Contracts | 19:42 |
| ybit | unfortunately antha was featured on oreilly | 19:42 |
| fenn | why should i care about detweiler and what does it have to do with anyting? | 19:42 |
| kanzure | "There could be more than one credentialling agency, but they would all share a database of thumbprints or whatever." this idea is bad | 19:42 |
| kanzure | well because detweiler is hilarious | 19:42 |
| fenn | of course it's bad | 19:42 |
| kanzure | he's the satoshi nakamoto whistleblowing time traveler | 19:43 |
| kanzure | the gloriously stereotypical usenet schizophrenic wacko | 19:43 |
| fenn | huh? | 19:43 |
| kanzure | you haven't been paying attention have you | 19:43 |
| RedMEdic | People are still taking biometric security seriously? | 19:43 |
| fenn | i havent read the backlogs for today.. | 19:44 |
| kanzure | http://borg.uu3.net/ldetweil/medusa/medusa.html | 19:44 |
| kanzure | "L.D. believed that "Nick Szabo" (szabo@netcom.com) was a "tentacle" or a front for various cryptoanarchists to post from. L.D. dissects an actual Szabo post here under the S.Boxx pseudonym, but misattributed it to J.Gilmore in a typical mischievous mood. The references to untraceable digital cash are classic cypherpunk. The pornography allusions are rarer but tie in with the T.C.May pornography post above." | 19:44 |
| fenn | yeah i don't care | 19:44 |
| fenn | wild conspiracy theories that are trivially testable | 19:44 |
| kanzure | yeah but they are extra funny because these same people are caught up in another layer of very similar modern-day conspiracy theories | 19:45 |
| kanzure | for-pay remailers http://web.archive.org/web/20130513050640/http://finney.org/~hal/pay_remail.html | 19:46 |
| kanzure | "why remailers" http://web.archive.org/web/20120216180743/http://finney.org/~hal/why_rem1.html http://web.archive.org/web/20130513043044/http://finney.org/~hal/why_rem2.html | 19:46 |
| fenn | satoshi nakamoto doesn't try very hard to pretend to be a real person | 19:46 |
| kanzure | "(The Cypherpunk vision includes a world in which literally hundreds or thousands of such remailers operate. Mail could be bounced through dozens of these services, mixing in with tens of thousands of other messages, re-encrypted at each step of the way. This should make traffic analysis virtually impossible. By sending periodic dummy messages which just get swallowed up at some step, people can even disguise when they are communicating.)" | 19:46 |
| kanzure | fenn: and why should he? | 19:46 |
| kanzure | i mean why should he be obligated to pretend to be a real person? | 19:47 |
| fenn | i'm not arguing that | 19:47 |
| fenn | what i mean is detweiler is accusing supposedly real people of being nyms | 19:47 |
| fenn | nakamoto is actually a pseudonym | 19:47 |
| fenn | i mean, is not pretending to be a real person, so must be a pseudonym | 19:47 |
| kanzure | i thought there was evidence that "wei dai" is also a pseudonym | 19:47 |
| kanzure | who the hell names their kid "grave danger", come on | 19:48 |
| fenn | wei dai is pretending to be a person | 19:48 |
| fenn | also google translate doesn't work on names | 19:48 |
| fenn | and you're a moron for thinking that it does | 19:48 |
| kanzure | wei dai posted "grave danger" himself | 19:48 |
| fenn | so, uh, in wacko conspiracy-land wei dai is the long lost rayhawk brother? | 19:48 |
| fenn | time traveling emulated clone of ai descendant | 19:49 |
| kanzure | well, detweiler's conspiracies were about nick szabo | 19:49 |
| kanzure | and a handful of others like hal finney | 19:49 |
| kanzure | but not wei dai (or at least, not anyone identifying as wei dai) | 19:49 |
| RedMEdic | What in the everliving fuck are you guys talking about | 19:50 |
| RedMEdic | Something about time traveling usenet trolls | 19:50 |
| kanzure | usenet is pretty fucking magical | 19:51 |
| RedMEdic | I wasnt aware usenet still existed | 19:51 |
| kanzure | nah this all happened in the 80s and 90s | 19:51 |
| fenn | from wei dai's AMA: "Q: Have you used other pseudonyms online? Are you Szabo? A: I've used pseudonyms only on rare (probably less than 10) occasions. I'm not Szabo but coincidentally we attended the same university and had the same major and graduated within a couple years of each other. Theoretically we could have seen each other on campus but I don't think we ever spoke in real life." | 19:52 |
| jrayhawk | that's just what he *wants* you to think | 19:52 |
| RedMEdic | The best usenets were the furry ones | 19:52 |
| RedMEdic | Like that one weird guy who stalked a tiny toons voice actress | 19:53 |
| kanzure | "Coming up with bitcoin required someone who, a) thought about money on a deep level, and b) learnt the tools of cryptography, c) had the idea that something like Bitcoin is possible, d) was motivated enough to develop the idea into something practical, e) was technically skilled enough to make it secure, f) had enough social skills to build and grow a community around it. The number of people who even had a), b) and c) was really small ... | 19:54 |
| kanzure | ... -- ie, just Nick Szabo and me -- so I'd say not many people could have done all these things." | 19:54 |
| catern | fenn: that doesn't sound coincidental | 19:55 |
| catern | perhaps there was something in the water at the time | 19:55 |
| kanzure | i think the set is a bit larger than just wei dai and nick szabo though | 19:55 |
| catern | at that university | 19:55 |
| kanzure | vernor vinge books laying around | 19:55 |
| kanzure | that would do it | 19:55 |
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| kanzure | "Satoshi is first and foremost a coder, not a writer. Szabo is a writer first and coder second." | 19:57 |
| fenn | yep | 19:58 |
| fenn | i'm actually surprised satoshi and szabo were mutually unaware of each other's ideas | 19:58 |
| kanzure | szabo surely must have been unaware of satoshi because satoshi was being all secretive and not broadcasting ideas wildly | 19:58 |
| fenn | ok but why wasnt satoshi aware of szabo | 19:59 |
| fenn | if he knew about marc fawzi (ugh) | 19:59 |
| kanzure | what a weird world | 19:59 |
| fenn | maybe it's just a generation gap | 20:00 |
| kanzure | "oh excuse me for not paying close attention to everything being said on the internet for the past 30 years, i might have missed one or two of you" | 20:00 |
| fenn | cryptocurrency was not a very large field | 20:01 |
| kanzure | "Also, I understand you haven't read the original bitcoind code but do you have any guess for why the author chose to lift your SHA256 implementation from Crypto++ when the project already required openssl-0.9.8h? Is there anything odd about the OpenSSL implementation that wouldn't be immediately obvious to someone who isn't a crypto expert?" | 20:01 |
| kanzure | "Hmm, I’m not sure. I thought it might have been the optimizations I put into my SHA256 implementation in March 2009 (due to discussions on the NIST mailing list for standardizing SHA-3, about how fast SHA-2 really is), which made it the fastest available at the time, but it looks like Bitcoin 0.1 was already released prior to that (in Jan 2009) and therefore had my old code. Maybe someone could test if the old code was still faster ... | 20:01 |
| kanzure | ... than OpenSSL?" | 20:01 |
| kanzure | from http://lesswrong.com/lw/jgz/aalwa_ask_any_lesswronger_anything/apjk | 20:01 |
| ybit | because hackernews isn't already enough to handle https://bit.ink/ | 20:02 |
| ybit | and all its clones like this | 20:02 |
| kanzure | honestly if you want cryptocurrency-related infobitz just read bitcointalk.org or #bitcoin | 20:02 |
| fenn | #bitcoin is terrible SNR | 20:02 |
| RedMEdic | heh | 20:03 |
| kanzure | "our goal is to have a SNR slightly better than the US dollar" | 20:03 |
| ybit | hmm, not enough posts to keep that site going, probably won't last | 20:03 |
| RedMEdic | Met a RL bitcoin true believer once | 20:03 |
| RedMEdic | "Its going to get adopted by a big bank and then..." | 20:03 |
| fenn | and then what | 20:03 |
| RedMEdic | and then the 1k he dumped into it will pay off | 20:04 |
| ybit | https://cryptanalys.is/ is the better site | 20:04 |
| RedMEdic | SPOILER:(It didnt) | 20:04 |
| fenn | uh, okay, whatever | 20:04 |
| fenn | speculation isn't the point | 20:04 |
| fenn | price speculation i mean | 20:04 |
| kanzure | use #bitcoin-pricetalk for price speculation | 20:05 |
| kanzure | i don't undestand what your story about a friend selling his bitcoin has to do with anything | 20:05 |
| kanzure | or big banks for that matter | 20:05 |
| fenn | kanzure: redmedic is just totally clueless that's all | 20:06 |
| fenn | no offense, it's hard to a) learn how this works b) predict the future and c) decide to care | 20:06 |
| fenn | not necessarily in that order | 20:06 |
| RedMEdic | This is true | 20:06 |
| RedMEdic | Sorry, just went off on a tangent | 20:07 |
| fenn | kanzure is guilty of more bitcoin tangents than you will ever be capable of | 20:07 |
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| kanzure | i have made the maximum tangent | 20:08 |
| fenn | IRC law on the blockchain; labeling trolls for great justice | 20:09 |
| ybit | "There are some alt coins hoping to decentralise and simplify tipping " | 20:09 |
| ybit | I want to know which currencies these are | 20:09 |
| kanzure | i have never proposed irc law on blockchains | 20:09 |
| fenn | ybit: dogecoin, litecoin | 20:09 |
| ybit | dogecoin simplifies tipping? | 20:09 |
| * fenn shrugs | 20:09 | |
| kanzure | not particularly | 20:10 |
| ybit | dogecoin seems to just be a copy of everything out there..with a dog | 20:10 |
| RedMEdic | fedora tipping? | 20:10 |
| kanzure | dogecoin is definitely a copy | 20:10 |
| * fenn tips toward you respectfully | 20:10 | |
| fenn | oh i did it wrong | 20:10 |
| kanzure | although oddly enough dogecoin has a bunch of bitcoin-qt devs willing to work on their fork | 20:10 |
| * fenn tips respectfully toward you | 20:10 | |
| kanzure | "It's Chinese Pinyin romanization, so pronounced "way dye"." aww hell | 20:11 |
| fenn | how did you think it was pronounced? | 20:11 |
| kanzure | the other way | 20:12 |
| catern | wee dee | 20:12 |
| fenn | weeeee | 20:12 |
| fenn | (the d is silent) | 20:12 |
| kanzure | (wey/way day) | 20:12 |
| fenn | man has all that anime been for nothing | 20:13 |
| RedMEdic | weegeee | 20:13 |
| kanzure | hm "I'm worried that I may just be anchoring off of your two numbers, but I think 10^3 is a decent estimate. There are upwards of a thousand people at NIPS and ICML (two of the main machine learning conferences), only a fraction of those people are necessarily interested in the "human-level" AI vision, but also there are many people who are in the field who don't go to these conferences in any given year. Also many people in natural ... | 20:13 |
| kanzure | ... language processing and computer vision may be interested in these problems, and I recently found out that the program analysis community cares about at least some questions that 40 years ago would have been classified under AI. So the number is hard to estimate but 10^3 might be a rough order of magnitude. I expect to find more communities in the future that I either wasn't aware of or didn't think of as being AI-relevant, and who ... | 20:13 |
| kanzure | ... turn out to be working on problems that are important to me." | 20:13 |
| RedMEdic | Moshi Moshi desu~ ^_^ | 20:13 |
| nmz787 | ppl be scurred to get upgrayyded | 20:14 |
| fenn | "vision" collision | 20:14 |
| fenn | "Tim May who besides inspiring me with his vision of cryptoanarchy was also a role model for doing early retirement from the tech industry and working on his own interests/causes." is tim's own interest/cause the cypherpunks mailing list? | 20:17 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_C._May | 20:20 |
| kanzure | .wik timothy c. may | 20:21 |
| yoleaux | "Timothy C. May, better known as Tim May, is a technical and political writer, and was an electronic engineer and senior scientist at Intel in the company's early history. He is retired as of 2003[update]." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_C._May | 20:21 |
| fenn | i don't see the [update] | 20:21 |
| ybit | .title http://online.wsj.com/articles/how-the-brain-uses-glucose-to-fuel-self-control-1417618996 | 20:21 |
| yoleaux | How the Brain Uses Glucose to Fuel Self-Control - WSJ | 20:21 |
| kanzure | "and his essay "True Nyms and Crypto Anarchy" was included in a reprint of Vernor Vinge's novel True Names." | 20:22 |
| kanzure | "He is retired {{As of|2003|lc=on}}." | 20:22 |
| ybit | .title http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/04/15/301780516/voodoo-dolls-prove-it-hunger-makes-couples-turn-on-each-other | 20:22 |
| yoleaux | Voodoo Dolls Prove It: Hunger Makes Couples Turn On Each Other : Shots - Health News : NPR | 20:22 |
| fenn | how can a person like this not have a personal web page? | 20:22 |
| ybit | http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/04/09/1400619111 | 20:22 |
| ybit | .title | 20:23 |
| yoleaux | Low glucose relates to greater aggression in married couples | 20:23 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1073%2Fpnas.1400619111 | 20:23 |
| kanzure | you're asking how a privacy advocate doesn't hae a webpage? | 20:23 |
| kanzure | *have | 20:23 |
| fenn | well it's not like we don't know his name | 20:23 |
| kanzure | fenn's on to you better hide | 20:24 |
| ybit | github is banned in russia: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.opennet.ru%2Fopennews%2Fart.shtml%3Fnum%3D41171&edit-text= | 20:24 |
| fenn | tim may i'm gonna get you | 20:24 |
| fenn | no amount of usenet posting can save you now | 20:24 |
| kanzure | he's probably just szabo anyway | 20:25 |
| fenn | he is netochka nezvanova's father-husband | 20:25 |
| ybit | https://twitter.com/NASA/status/539814651404754944 | 20:26 |
| ybit | We're sending humans to Mars! Watch our #JourneytoMars briefing live today at 12pm ET: http://www.nasa.gov/nasatv #Orion | 20:26 |
| kanzure | sending humans is a dumb idea they should send robots | 20:26 |
| RedMEdic | Wait | 20:27 |
| RedMEdic | really | 20:27 |
| RedMEdic | holy shit | 20:27 |
| RedMEdic | hyped | 20:27 |
| fenn | why do they keep saying "orion is going to mars" when it's obviously not designed to do that | 20:27 |
| kanzure | and didn't the "mars in 20 years" stuff start in like 2003 or something | 20:28 |
| kanzure | why is it still 20 years | 20:28 |
| fenn | because we haven't discovered the secret of fusion yet | 20:28 |
| fenn | "a spacecraft intended to carry a crew of up to 4 astronauts to destinations beyond-low Earth orbit (LEO)" | 20:28 |
| RedMEdic | Kanzure: Yeah | 20:28 |
| RedMEdic | Every few years shit gets really bad | 20:29 |
| fenn | nothing about "for durations of two years" in there | 20:29 |
| RedMEdic | and the president announces that were going to mars | 20:29 |
| RedMEdic | It was Dubya who first said it | 20:29 |
| fenn | i'm glad they developed something, i just dont get what it has to do with mars | 20:30 |
| kanzure | so whenever they get their heads out of their asses about sending robots, | 20:30 |
| kanzure | i think they should do robot personalities and personification | 20:30 |
| kanzure | r2d2 didn't get famous by mistake | 20:30 |
| kanzure | you could even have voice actors operating telerobotics at conferences and events even if it's totally fucking unrealistic that a rover would talk to a kid | 20:31 |
| fenn | the ESA does that already | 20:31 |
| kanzure | do they do that well? | 20:32 |
| RedMEdic | + | 20:32 |
| kanzure | ugh i hate that phrasing. i mean "are they good at it?" | 20:32 |
| fenn | lookup error | 20:34 |
| kanzure | get back to me in 37 days | 20:34 |
| * fenn sleeps for 3196800 seconds | 20:35 | |
| kanzure | that's cheating | 20:35 |
| fenn | eric hunting posted some "rollin rick" robot something something it was blue and consumer friendly | 20:36 |
| fenn | and i can't figure out what "EUROBOT" is | 20:37 |
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| fenn | wtf is with government websites and their 25 pixel wide images | 20:38 |
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| fenn | fwiw http://www.esa.int/images/exoskeletondemo.gif | 20:40 |
| fenn | "Telemanipulation with the use of the ESA Exoskeleton" | 20:40 |
| fenn | this looks pretty cute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Space_Exploration_Vehicle_in-space_concept.jpg | 20:46 |
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| kanzure | well, they could just lie about what they look like | 20:47 |
| kanzure | and then they can make them as cute as they want | 20:47 |
| fenn | "i swear there are humans inside" | 20:47 |
| fenn | the real problem is control latency | 20:47 |
| kanzure | "once in orbit, it sheds its cute exterior to let out its inner robot" | 20:47 |
| fenn | mwahaha | 20:47 |
| fenn | shredded hello kitty exterior burns upon reentry | 20:48 |
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| fenn | mass 3 tons | 20:49 |
| fenn | i'm always amazed by these numbers | 20:49 |
| kanzure | did you see http://www.hitchbot.me/ | 20:49 |
| fenn | does it really take 3 tons to provide life support for 2 | 20:49 |
| kanzure | someone made a hitchhiking robot | 20:49 |
| kanzure | .title http://vimeo.com/100845249 | 20:50 |
| yoleaux | hitchBOT on Vimeo | 20:50 |
| kanzure | hmm that's not the one i remember | 20:51 |
| kanzure | one of them was tweeting regularly with bad jokes or something | 20:51 |
| kanzure | "fuck that guy" etc | 20:51 |
| fenn | suicide-inducing robot | 20:52 |
| fenn | it would be so easy to just throw it into the middle of a highway | 20:52 |
| kanzure | that's property damage man | 20:53 |
| kanzure | thing has cameras | 20:53 |
| fenn | i'm still miffed about sony killing QRIO | 20:53 |
| kanzure | pfft "I remember being educated on the dangers of East German doping while in Berlin. They were pointing to examples of former athletes who had their lives permanently and dramatically changed by the doping done to them. The Germans who were telling me about them weren't saying this for the sake of propaganda. Their point was that East Germany's doping was lagging behind the West, from a technological point of view, so to keep up, they ... | 20:54 |
| kanzure | ... had to take risks." | 20:54 |
| kanzure | "Remember the 2008 Olympics? The Chinese used an ultra sonic system in their pools so the waves from each competitor would not interfere with each other." | 20:54 |
| fenn | -_- | 20:55 |
| kanzure | hmmm | 20:55 |
| kanzure | yeah... | 20:55 |
| fenn | "hey! no splashing!" | 20:55 |
| * fenn pulls out ultrasonic cannon | 20:55 | |
| fenn | "Before it was cancelled, QRIO was reported to be going through numerous development, testing and scalability phases, with the intent of becoming commercially available within three or four years." | 20:56 |
| fenn | i never understood why it was cancelled | 20:56 |
| RedMEdic | Fenn: Because Sony is in a financial death spiral | 20:57 |
| RedMEdic | And that would be too much fun | 20:57 |
| RedMEdic | the future is going to be nothing but Tablets and google glass | 20:58 |
| fenn | glass is dead | 20:58 |
| RedMEdic | Already? | 20:59 |
| fenn | google killed it just as surely as google plus and google buzz | 20:59 |
| RedMEdic | Never even heard of google buzz | 20:59 |
| RedMEdic | and all I know about Plus is that its the reason I cant comment on youtube videos anymore | 20:59 |
| fenn | http://en.akihabaranews.com/129508/robot/the-saddest-robots-in-japan-live-among-the-sins-of-sony | 21:00 |
| nmz787 | http://zeptobars.ru/en/read/ULN2003-per-element-die-annotation | 21:27 |
| fenn | .wik REEM | 21:34 |
| yoleaux | "REEM is the latest prototype humanoid robot built by PAL Robotics in Spain. It is a 1.70 m high humanoid robot with 22 degrees of freedom, with a mobile base with wheels, allowing it to move at 4 km/hour." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REEM | 21:34 |
| fenn | REEM-C has legs and 44 DOF | 21:34 |
| fenn | also it is totally not cute | 21:34 |
| fenn | in a safeguard-like way | 21:35 |
| kanzure | code review stuff http://www.arguingwithalgorithms.com/posts/14-12-02-architecture-reviews | 21:35 |
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| fenn | there i fixed it: http://fennetic.net/irc/finney.org/~hal/home.html | 23:16 |
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| rkos | hey, can anyone get me this paper: http://cnc.sagepub.com/content/28/2/101.short ? | 23:43 |
| ebowden | paperbot: http://cnc.sagepub.com/content/28/2/101.short | 23:47 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1177%2F030981680408300105 | 23:47 |
| ebowden | rkos, try that link. ^ | 23:48 |
| rkos | thanks very much! | 23:48 |
| rkos | i thought paperbot wasnt working... great! | 23:48 |
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