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| archels | why the devil is Taylor & Francis mailing me on my personal e-mail account that I now have access to Connection Science till Dec 31st? | 04:42 |
|---|---|---|
| archels | just... out of the blue | 04:43 |
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| archels | http://www.mauve.plus.com/opensourcehw.txt | 05:43 |
| archels | "Why open-source hardware is hard" | 05:43 |
| kanzure | "“Our proposed use of seasteading for medical research,” says Allison, “will be designed to supplement the FDA and shift some of the regulatory burden away from their overworked team and to a more agile regulatory option. If properly organized and with careful design, seasteading has the potential to alleviate some of the stress on regulatory agencies by taking on medical research … Simply stated, I think we can mirror the ... | 05:46 |
| kanzure | ... beneficial aspects of existing review structures and combine them with a lean, agile seastead venture.”" | 05:46 |
| kanzure | "The FDA, founded in 1906, has held a monopoly over the production of regulations in the US medical field for more than a century, and the citizens they are charged with serving need them to be challenged by offshore competitors to reinvigorate its mission. " | 05:46 |
| kanzure | "Nothing can match the awe and power of our own bureaucracy." | 05:47 |
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| kanzure | "Proof-of-concept: Deterministic SSH (ed25519) key generation from a master secret + key handle"" https://github.com/mithrandi/ssh-key-generator | 06:17 |
| kanzure | "If you use the same keypair to access someaccount@somehost and otheraccount@otherhost, someone who observes that both accounts have the same public key for login knows that the two accounts (most probably) belong to the same person. Sometimes this is undesireable for privacy reasons, but the only way to avoid it is to generate two different keypairs for use with the two different hosts. Generating a keypair is not hard, but managing ... | 06:17 |
| kanzure | ... large numbers of keypairs like this (eg. one per host) individually is difficult and tedious to do; this proof-of-concept shows that you can have the multiple keypairs without needing to store / manage / back up anything more than a single "master key". Meanwhile, someone looking at the public keys can not tell that the keys are related, so privacy is retained." | 06:17 |
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| kanzure | https://medium.com/@maradydd/when-nerds-collide-31895b01e68c | 12:02 |
| kanzure | although i would rather see her writing articles about the brain parts she keeps | 12:03 |
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| kanzure | tmux ctrl-b z (zoom) is the best thing since sliced bread | 12:12 |
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| fenn | do you usually have multiple panes up in a single terminal? | 13:10 |
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| fenn | "With readline, ^A is beginning-of-line, ^B is backward-char | 13:12 |
| fenn | With the default settings, to go to the beginning-of-line you have to – ^A a inside a screen session – while ^A would be enough inside a tmux session. Now, to go one char backward, you have to – ^B within screen – ^B b within tmux | 13:12 |
| fenn | Which of these two actions do you do the most? I bet this is the first! | 13:12 |
| fenn | Now, as a few others, I’v longed solved this problem, by using M-w as the prefix (and M-a and M-q for nested and nested-nested screen-or-tmux session) | 13:12 |
| fenn | As a bonus, (this is actually why I originally started looking for a new prefix), you may also find these prefixes are easier&quicker to use than either ^A or ^B!" | 13:12 |
| fenn | the windows key is just sitting there staring at me mockingly | 13:13 |
| kanzure | fundrawtransaction https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5503 | 13:16 |
| kanzure | this is a useful thing | 13:16 |
| fenn | fun draw the funnest drawing program around | 13:17 |
| fenn | how is this different from just creating an unfunded transaction? | 13:18 |
| kanzure | this selects unspent outputs to use as the input to the transaction you are creating | 13:18 |
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| delinquentme | so IO limited processes... | 13:35 |
| delinquentme | throw redis at it right? | 13:35 |
| archels | New Myo Releases - Including Raw Data! | 13:42 |
| archels | "The biggest addition to the Windows and Mac SDKs is the ability to capture raw EMG data using the onEmgData() event." | 13:42 |
| archels | well, that's about the best response to a consumer outcry ever | 13:42 |
| archels | I know they already did have something in the pipeline when that happened, but they sure spun it around nicely | 13:43 |
| fenn | that should be the first thing they published | 13:46 |
| fenn | all the fancy algorithms come next | 13:46 |
| fenn | don't congratulate someone for dragging their feet until people complained about basic functionality | 13:47 |
| fenn | "All an attacker needs in order to exploit Misfortune Cookie is to send a single packet to your public IP address. No hacking tools required, just a simple modern browser." | 13:52 |
| fenn | (assuming you have a vulnerable router) | 13:52 |
| fenn | "esearchers have distinctly detected approximately 12 million readily exploitable unique devices connected to the Internet" | 13:54 |
| archels | number of ISPs that are going to write to their customers: 0 | 13:54 |
| fenn | maybe someone could do a remote exploit that shows a warning page | 13:55 |
| nmz787_i1 | delinquentme: or use threads | 13:55 |
| kanzure | see bitcoin-dev convo | 13:56 |
| fenn | i'm going to have to see a lot of transaction subgraphs before i really understand bitcoin privacy implications | 14:01 |
| fenn | the coinalytics stuff didn't make a lot of sense unfortunately | 14:01 |
| fenn | misfortune cookie affects router "models by D-Link, Edimax, Huawei, TP-Link, ZTE, and ZyXEL," and 200 others | 14:02 |
| fenn | also a device vendor could remotely patch their device by using the exploit? | 14:03 |
| delinquentme | lololol sooo im about to take a hard up negotiations call | 14:04 |
| delinquentme | to calm ones self : start at the physiological level. | 14:04 |
| fenn | put on your suit | 14:04 |
| delinquentme | deep breaths, heating pad on feet, warm tea | 14:04 |
| fenn | .wik hachimaki | 14:05 |
| yoleaux | "A hachimaki (鉢巻, "helmet-scarf") is a stylized headband (bandana) in Japanese culture, usually made of red or white cloth, worn as a symbol of perseverance, effort, and/or courage by the wearer." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hachimaki | 14:05 |
| fenn | magnesium citrate or beta blockers | 14:05 |
| delinquentme | how about household items? | 14:06 |
| delinquentme | is that in something I can drink? | 14:06 |
| fenn | a banana has some magnesium | 14:07 |
| fenn | epson salt bath lasts a few hours | 14:07 |
| fenn | also it's best to stand up | 14:08 |
| delinquentme | when taking calls? | 14:08 |
| fenn | yeah | 14:08 |
| fenn | unless you're invalid or something | 14:08 |
| fenn | the point here is to be alert and confident, but not in panic mode | 14:09 |
| fenn | caffeine helps with alertness, standing and power poses helps with the confidence, magnesium reduces adrenaline effects | 14:10 |
| fenn | also did you read the kalzumeus article on negotiating? | 14:11 |
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| fenn | .g kalzumeus salary negotiation | 14:11 |
| yoleaux | http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/ | 14:11 |
| fenn | probably too long to read now | 14:12 |
| fenn | "You know what people find persuasive? Their own words. People love their own words. When you talk to them, you should use their own words." | 14:13 |
| fenn | "do not start negotiating until you already have a Yes-If. (Yes-If we agree on terms.) Do not start negotiating from No-But. (No-But we might hire you anyway if you’re really, really effing cheap.)" | 14:13 |
| kanzure | i think the coinalytics stuff may make more sense if they gave you access to actual graphs | 14:16 |
| kanzure | rather than just blog posts | 14:16 |
| kanzure | (i have only seen thier blog posts) | 14:16 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: if you want you can phone me up and we can talk salary 512-203-0507 | 14:17 |
| fenn | http://www.zdnet.com/article/coin-sized-nuclear-batteries-to-revolutionise-electronics/ | 14:17 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, actually that would be huge -- you can chat now? | 14:17 |
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| kanzure | yep | 14:18 |
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| nmz787_i1 | fenn: oO this article seems pretty good | 14:32 |
| nmz787_i1 | great timing as I may be able to negotiate some in the next week or two | 14:33 |
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| fenn | i just filter stuff and regurgitate it; i am a nauseated sponge | 14:34 |
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| kanzure | as for transaction graphs i usually just click around on blockchain.info or webbtc.com | 14:43 |
| kanzure | if you would like a full blockchain dataset i could make one available for you to play with | 14:44 |
| kanzure | http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/monkey-see-monkey-speak-video/ | 14:48 |
| nmz787_i1 | someone recommended reading this re: software engineering... I haven't read it yet http://www.ucalgary.ca/icic/files/icic/49-IJSSCI-1201-CogFoundSE.pdf | 14:48 |
| nmz787_i1 | that krak.wav didn't have any sound in it that sounded like 'crack' to me | 14:51 |
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| kanzure | "It's basically a specialization of the base rate fallacy. If, say, idiots can still be right by chance 10% of the time, and experts are right 90% of the time, but only 10% of the population are experts, then lucky idiots will make up fully half of the population of people who are right." | 15:00 |
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| kanzure | from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8773149 | 15:01 |
| kanzure | "I'm representing one of the competitor payloads, lettuceonmars. We originally wanted to send algae too, but had to rule them out because of payload specifications. More info about our porjct ca be found here: <http://www.lettuceonmars.com/>" | 15:08 |
| kanzure | via Ravasz <ravaszmeister@gmail.com> | 15:09 |
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| fenn | “This is the first time that a professional linguist has tackled the data on call combinations in wild monkeys.” | 16:11 |
| fenn | for shame | 16:11 |
| fenn | shameful if it's true, shameful if he was wrong and said it anyway | 16:12 |
| kanzure | in conclusion, we're screwed | 16:14 |
| fenn | was there actually a video? | 16:15 |
| kanzure | dunno, sorry | 16:15 |
| fenn | lettuce is the most useless food you could pick | 16:18 |
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| kanzure | hacker news says "already been done for dogs" http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/FarsideDogTranslator.jpg | 16:49 |
| fenn | Heyyyyyyyy... | 16:52 |
| kanzure | "the great list of things that you thought people had already taken care of, but turns out nobody has done, updated for the poor souls who may come across this in 20 or 40 years" | 16:57 |
| fenn | i'm afraid to look | 16:57 |
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| kanzure | nah, we'd probably have to write it | 16:58 |
| fenn | omg what an epic fail on the part of blockchain.info http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2onm5r/blockchaininfo_security_disclosure/cmosmbn | 17:04 |
| kanzure | they are not known for their skillz https://people.xiph.org/~greg/21mbtc.png | 17:05 |
| fenn | iirc this is the exact same crypto fail that let people sign PS4 games/install linux again | 17:10 |
| fenn | not using a random nonce for ECDSA | 17:11 |
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| kanzure | i have a really bad idea and i hate myself for having this idea | 17:17 |
| kanzure | i don't know what this salary-tithing trend is really called, but people seem to do that | 17:18 |
| fenn | which salary-tithing trend | 17:18 |
| kanzure | and singinst used to spend a ridiculous amount of effort shaming everyone into donating 50% of their salaries towards anti-ai research | 17:18 |
| kanzure | "because this is the most important importantness you will ever have influence on, in the history of forever" | 17:18 |
| fenn | well, potentially | 17:18 |
| kanzure | (i don't even know if charitynavigator covers these schemes) | 17:18 |
| kanzure | i was writing an email to reason@fightaging.org about this, but then decided against sending this straight to him, because he keeps secrets | 17:19 |
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| kanzure | and uh, the reason why i was typing to him was because of a stupid grg thread | 17:19 |
| kanzure | i think grg is filtering my emails, there should be at least one email from me in that thread, but whatever | 17:19 |
| kanzure | anyway, the awful idea goes like this: | 17:19 |
| kanzure | someone should put kickstarter-style campaigns together for salary-tithing-style campaigns | 17:19 |
| kanzure | e.g. get a group of people to send 40% of their salaries only if $400M is reached or whatever | 17:20 |
| kanzure | er, $400M/year | 17:20 |
| fenn | i guess i don't see the point of making it a recurring cost | 17:20 |
| kanzure | hopefully this would be implemented not in the name of charity but in the name of projects that need to get done | 17:20 |
| delinquentme | you're convincing people ti give up 40% of their income? | 17:20 |
| kanzure | no | 17:21 |
| kanzure | i am just reporting about that | 17:21 |
| fenn | recurring costs leads to waste instead of fixing stuff | 17:21 |
| fenn | see any federal agency for example | 17:21 |
| kanzure | my point though is that, as much as "send 40% of your salary to singinst" exists (and it's not singinst's idea by far), group-style "only if everyone else does it" hasn't been used on that idea yet | 17:22 |
| fenn | so this is just kickstarter with a recurring donation | 17:22 |
| kanzure | i hate donations | 17:23 |
| fenn | is it not a donation? | 17:23 |
| kanzure | this is also why i hate myself for even talking about this trend | 17:23 |
| kanzure | no i just hate donations | 17:23 |
| fenn | some kickstarters are basically product launch with early reservations | 17:23 |
| kanzure | well you're the one that said donation | 17:23 |
| fenn | you could have a similar service where you sign up for fair trade beard razors or whatever | 17:24 |
| kanzure | oh shit i said donating | 17:24 |
| kanzure | but that was about singinst | 17:24 |
| kanzure | so you can't call me on that | 17:24 |
| fenn | i dont see anything wrong with the idea of donations in general | 17:25 |
| fenn | i wish people would do at least the same amount of research they do for buying a consumer product | 17:25 |
| fenn | there are a lot of corrupt "charities" that just embezzle 99% of the money, but you'd never know without doing research on them | 17:26 |
| kanzure | there are many reasons why donations are a bad idea (perhaps the most recent one that i've stumbled into is "fuck your free shirts, we're trying to start a t-shirt economy and you're killing our businesses by injecting free crap into our economy.") | 17:26 |
| fenn | oh noes free stuff, call the libertarian police | 17:27 |
| kanzure | only if you pay for the phone call | 17:27 |
| fenn | i hope you realize how dumb that sounds, reading this on your linux-powered computer | 17:27 |
| kanzure | t-shirts are not software | 17:28 |
| kanzure | not yet, anyway | 17:28 |
| fenn | there's a difference between a (tax-funded) subsidy and a charity | 17:29 |
| fenn | also technological innovation can reduce costs to zero | 17:29 |
| fenn | these things can all reduce revenue, or they can increase it | 17:29 |
| * fenn shrugs | 17:30 | |
| kanzure | shrug, another reason i am | 17:30 |
| kanzure | hey don't shrug at my shrug | 17:30 |
| fenn | hey man i invented shrugging, you're infringing my social communication patent | 17:30 |
| fenn | method of conveying apathy in ascii text stream | 17:31 |
| kanzure | if you are going to flood people with free stuff, flooding them with useful things like free software, cnc machines and the science ark would be much better than just consumer goods | 17:31 |
| fenn | you're missing the point entirely | 17:31 |
| fenn | the t-shirts are advertising for the charity, cleverly hacked into cognitive biases that say "a shirt is useful!" and get people to advertise for them unwittingly | 17:32 |
| fenn | someone had to pay for the shirt at some point | 17:32 |
| fenn | that shirt cost comes out of their advertising budget | 17:32 |
| kanzure | the t-shirts are advertising for the charity? when they send the t-shirts to $crapcountry? | 17:32 |
| fenn | oh, that's a different situation. in that case the shirts are literally a donation in kind | 17:33 |
| kanzure | what situation did you think i was talking about | 17:33 |
| fenn | or recycling, if you're cynical | 17:33 |
| fenn | the situation where they send you swag | 17:33 |
| kanzure | oh, that's just annoying | 17:33 |
| fenn | ok i see where you're coming from now | 17:34 |
| fenn | unintended consequences of "the white man's burden" (for lack of a better phrase) | 17:35 |
| kanzure | there's also some rant to be had about supply/demand/pricing and donations not being linked to market efficiency | 17:35 |
| kanzure | although donations are often linked to "market(ing) efficiency" hehe aren't i clever, i'll go sit down now | 17:35 |
| fenn | how do you type standing up? :) | 17:36 |
| kanzure | desk happens to be correct height | 17:36 |
| kanzure | it's pretty nice for run-by typing and ranting | 17:36 |
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| fenn | wrt the t-shirt economy, that's a problem with income inequality and trade imbalance | 17:37 |
| fenn | if t-shirts were worth something in $donating_country they probably wouldn't be giving them away wholesale | 17:37 |
| kanzure | they should be trying to bootstrap a stable t-shirt printing industry (it's not like screen printing is black magic these days) | 17:38 |
| fenn | but t-shirts would still not be worth anything in $donating_country and the trade imbalance would persist | 17:38 |
| kanzure | wait why did i mention printing | 17:38 |
| fenn | even though $receiving_country has a t-shirt production business | 17:38 |
| kanzure | printing is after you have t-shirt | 17:38 |
| fenn | whatever | 17:39 |
| fenn | most t-shirts are made in bangladesh | 17:39 |
| fenn | they at least have an export economy there | 17:40 |
| fenn | anyway i agree that giving people capital goods is a better use of your charity dollars | 17:41 |
| fenn | assuming they want it and can use it | 17:41 |
| fenn | something about a replicator being used as a goat milking stool | 17:41 |
| fenn | out of cartridges the milkmaid said | 17:42 |
| fenn | an e-beam metal powder sintering machine on the ISS would have to be spinning to create centrifugal force to settle the dust | 17:43 |
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| fenn | hello Quellvisk | 17:44 |
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| fenn | was it something i said | 17:44 |
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| fenn | Quellvisks (quell='kill, crush completely' visk='move quickly') are - or rather, were, since they're all extinct by now (see below) - huge and crushingly stupid herbivorous ruminants | 17:45 |
| fenn | http://motherfuckingwebsite.com/ yesss | 17:51 |
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| jrayhawk | haha "<!-- yes, I know...wanna fight about it? --><script>[Google analytics shit]</script>" | 17:56 |
| fenn | Good riddance, Goxchain! | 17:57 |
| jrayhawk | http://txti.es/ i like his captcha | 17:58 |
| fenn | at least it tells you to leave it blank | 17:58 |
| fenn | i've been classified as a robot because i put shit in fields that weren't labeled | 17:58 |
| fenn | how does the "show more options" button work? | 17:59 |
| jrayhawk | same way as every other button? | 18:00 |
| fenn | hm ok nevermind | 18:00 |
| fenn | same way as every other button before 2000 | 18:00 |
| jrayhawk | i assume you've seen how the CGI standard works | 18:01 |
| fenn | yes | 18:01 |
| fenn | i was confused because the url didn't change | 18:01 |
| fenn | and it loaded/displayed really fast so i thought it was the same page | 18:02 |
| fenn | only accepts lowercase letters (a-z), numbers (0-9), and dashes (-). If you put anything else in there, txti will change it. | 18:07 |
| fenn | that's an odd decision, as punctuation is generally considered helpful | 18:07 |
| fenn | oh that's the url | 18:08 |
| kanzure | 17:17 < dgenr8> mempool art, 500+ tx all invalidated by a single respend http://i.imgur.com/ZTKAuqz.png | 18:11 |
| kanzure | 17:47 < dgenr8> ah here it is... https://github.com/weilu/bitcoin-tx-graph-visualizer | 18:11 |
| fenn | wtf kind of image url is this: https://camo.githubusercontent.com/6ea7433b519f66576c487ae4d038b9209eb51c86/68747470733a2f2f7261776769746875622e636f6d2f7765696c752f626974636f696e2d74782d67726170682d76697375616c697a65722f6d61737465722f6578616d706c652f7472616e73616374696f6e732e737667 | 18:13 |
| kanzure | they can't host content on github.com anymore because Daeken | 18:13 |
| fenn | obviously i missed something | 18:16 |
| kanzure | also this is an svg file and i think the filename might be related to svg things | 18:16 |
| fenn | it's a ridiculously long hash | 18:16 |
| kanzure | Daeken did some proof-of-concepts for embedding html and js inside images that gets executed by most modern browsers | 18:16 |
| kanzure | so various cross-domain cookie-hijacking session-hijacking html5-js-api implications | 18:16 |
| fenn | "let's parse images for js just in case" | 18:17 |
| fenn | what the bloody fucky | 18:17 |
| kanzure | see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4209052 | 18:17 |
| kanzure | "A PNG that's interpreted as HTML and loads itself as compressed JavaScript" | 18:17 |
| fenn | is it just messing with the mime-type in the header? | 18:18 |
| jrayhawk | the w3 doesn't care about security and it's impossible for anyone to simultaneously comprehend every w3 standard, so we get undefined emergent properties of standards that vendors can only write ad-hoc policy fixes to as they're discovered | 18:19 |
| fenn | i mean i understand that images can contain other files, but why the fuck would a browser load html data from an image | 18:19 |
| fenn | in an <img> tag no less | 18:19 |
| kanzure | because the browser renders almost any html it sees | 18:19 |
| kanzure | no the <img> tag you are seeing is inside the image | 18:19 |
| fenn | i'm not seeing any <img> tag (though i believe this works on other browsers) | 18:20 |
| kanzure | -Vœi¼jawh<img onload=with(document.createElement('canvas'))p=width=4968,(c=getContext('2d')).drawImage(this,e='',0);while(p)e+=String.fromCharCode(c.getImageData(0,0,p,1).data[p-=4]);(t=top).eval(e) src=#>IDATxœ]TÛnã6Ú | 18:20 |
| fenn | nope | 18:20 |
| kanzure | another technique is http://demoseen.com/windowpane/nufl0wer.png.html | 18:21 |
| kanzure | about http://daeken.com/superpacking-js-demos | 18:21 |
| fenn | PNG IHDRIDATx]TÛ... | 18:21 |
| fenn | hmm this didnt paste right but whatever | 18:21 |
| kanzure | "Rule #1 of shrinking demos: removing a byte becomes more difficult every time you remove a byte. It starts off trivial and runs very quickly into a brick wall." | 18:22 |
| jrayhawk | Daeken: can you add ;charset=UTF-8 to your Content-Type header? | 18:24 |
| jrayhawk | 'Nicolás Alvarez' seems like a funny name | 18:25 |
| kanzure | 18:18 < kanzure> so what sort of regular rate of transaction-invalidation do you see in your mempool? | 18:26 |
| kanzure | 18:19 < dgenr8> only 10-20 a day http://respends.thinlink.com | 18:26 |
| kanzure | 18:21 < dgenr8> a few weeks ago there was another pattern. only 50 or so txes, but arranged in a dazzling self-referential mess | 18:26 |
| fenn | maybe it was a trading site that got a stale block | 18:30 |
| fenn | that superpacking js in images thing could be big trouble for malware-infected-website scanners | 18:34 |
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| fenn | the js can encrypt the malware, or at least scramble it enough that simple pattern matchers don't see anything bad | 18:34 |
| kanzure | i dunno if the js has access to content outside the image actually, i haven't tried | 18:35 |
| fenn | it doesn't have to; it can just contain an entire webpage | 18:35 |
| fenn | inside the "image" | 18:35 |
| kanzure | http://blog.sucuri.net/2014/02/new-iframe-injections-leverage-png-image-metadata.html | 18:36 |
| kanzure | hrmm not quite the same thing | 18:36 |
| kanzure | "This last technique is called PNG Bootstraping and is pretty standard practice in the demoscene and creative coding scene focusing on size optimization." hehe | 18:37 |
| kanzure | "In retrospect, the dynamic favicon trick seen in Defender of the Favicon ( also from 2008 ) was abused much quicker, in only 2 years, to phish people using tabnapping." | 18:38 |
| kanzure | "store your data in the number pi" https://github.com/philipl/pifs | 18:39 |
| kanzure | i thought this was a joke until i noticed there seems to be people actually using this | 18:39 |
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| fenn | hey i came up with that independently | 18:40 |
| fenn | Arithmetic Coding! | 18:44 |
| fenn | wasnt there an altcoin like this | 18:45 |
| fenn | "why use a hash function when we can just use pi, it's random right?" | 18:46 |
| kanzure | at this point there's basically a law that says there already exists an altcoin for every single bad idea you can possibly imagine | 18:46 |
| kanzure | see http://mapofcoins.com/ | 18:46 |
| fenn | i need more classes of quotes, sarcastic quotes, scare quotes, verbatim quotes, paraphrase quotes... | 18:46 |
| kanzure | "Power and timing side channels for Strong Physical Unclonable Functions and their efficient exploitation" http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/851.pdf | 18:47 |
| fenn | One coin to rule them all, One coin to find them, One coin to bring them all and in the darkness bind them | 18:48 |
| kanzure | oh how clever -_- | 18:49 |
| fenn | it should start way before 2008 | 18:50 |
| fenn | even checks are a sort of cryptocurrency | 18:50 |
| kanzure | er what | 18:51 |
| fenn | bank notes | 18:51 |
| kanzure | huh? | 18:51 |
| fenn | the security features are based on gravure/guilloche or some kind of engine turning unique set of gear ratios | 18:52 |
| kanzure | go on | 18:52 |
| fenn | well that's basically a private key | 18:52 |
| kanzure | hehe http://retractionwatch.com/2014/12/19/elsevier-retracting-16-papers-faked-peer-review/ | 18:52 |
| kanzure | "Sixteen papers are being retracted across three Elsevier journals after the publisher discovered that one of the authors, Khalid Zaman, orchestrated fake peer reviews by submitting false contact information for his suggested reviewers." | 18:52 |
| kanzure | aww "editors have learned to be more skeptical of reviewer details provided by authors, especially contact details not connected to institutions" | 18:53 |
| kanzure | "If someone recommends a reviewer, we suggest [editors] verify the email address against SCOPU" | 18:54 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_lathe | 18:54 |
| fenn | The lathe was able to generate intersecting and interlacing patterns of fine lines in various shapes, which were almost impossible to forge by hand-engraving. They were used by many national mints. | 18:54 |
| kanzure | "A “small minority” to scientists could be translated as 1% or 5%. 1% or 5% of 12.5 million is 125000 and 625000 papers, respectively." | 18:55 |
| kanzure | "In my opinion, based on quite a few stories related to Elsevier, a deep distrust of Elsevier and its editorial integrity, has now set in. And, to cover all 12.5 million papers, Elsevier has hired ONE “full-time staff member with a PhD in physics and history as a managing editor to do the grunt work on cases like this”? Something is really, really wrong with this picture." | 18:55 |
| fenn | you can submit your own reviewers? who thought that was a good idea | 18:55 |
| kanzure | haha | 18:55 |
| kanzure | "hindsight is 20/20" | 18:56 |
| kanzure | could it be possible that scientists legitimately don't have any better ideas than conventional papers for communicating ideas | 18:58 |
| kanzure | i really can't think of an alternative explanation that doesn't sound completely crazy | 18:58 |
| kanzure | oh right, not incentivized to fix things(?) | 18:58 |
| fenn | that's more like it | 18:58 |
| kanzure | no alternative is particularly obvious though | 18:58 |
| fenn | um, how about the www | 18:58 |
| kanzure | more of the same | 18:58 |
| fenn | more what? | 18:59 |
| kanzure | okay, more accessible i guess, but you are still writing papers | 18:59 |
| fenn | my point is the www was invented by scientists for scientists to communicate data and ideas | 18:59 |
| fenn | "we" are still stuck in the paper mindset even with ridiculously flexible tools at our disposal | 19:00 |
| kanzure | i suppose i should be glad that they aren't all converting their ideas into superlong videos | 19:00 |
| kanzure | i better not poke that bear | 19:01 |
| fenn | or pdf files with embedded executable whatevers | 19:01 |
| fenn | i like the idea of something like engelbart's zooming hierarchical interface | 19:02 |
| fenn | where you have an abstract and table of contents, and the subheadings expand when you click on them | 19:02 |
| fenn | when everything is expanded you have the raw data, lab notebooks, commentary, everything | 19:02 |
| kanzure | sounds like some terrible contraption invented by borges | 19:02 |
| fenn | yes it is potentially infinite | 19:03 |
| kanzure | "you read the sentence, but then you realize it's a book and ted nelson is laughing at you" | 19:03 |
| kanzure | meh | 19:03 |
| fenn | but it's also just a webpage | 19:03 |
| fenn | this channel is potentially infinite but it's still just an irc channel | 19:04 |
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| fenn | the structure and language of a scientific paper has changed a lot since the 1600s | 19:05 |
| kanzure | not many alternatives available | 19:05 |
| kanzure | "all concepts must be submitted as executable code that gets uploaded to the massive science ai, or else" wont work | 19:05 |
| fenn | i could suggest some but you'd hat eme | 19:07 |
| fenn | ascii text has staying power | 19:07 |
| kanzure | at least within math, everything should have importable models and functions | 19:09 |
| kanzure | well, nearly everything | 19:09 |
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| fenn | but then it would be code!~ | 19:09 |
| kanzure | can't have that | 19:09 |
| fenn | did i mention i hate hieroglyphics | 19:09 |
| fenn | a big seduction of math is you can be lazy and abuse your reader by not explaining everything, like what the letters mean | 19:11 |
| fenn | then you get to say "behold, the succinctness of my equation" | 19:11 |
| fenn | even though it's not really reproducible | 19:11 |
| fenn | and any compiler worth its salt would throw an error | 19:12 |
| fenn | has anyone done a bitcoin key encoding in tengwar yet | 19:15 |
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| maaku | why would you want to? | 19:16 |
| fenn | i don't know | 19:16 |
| fenn | chinese characters would probably be better | 19:17 |
| kanzure | maaku: i was thinking about which constraints i would want to impose on a project if i was going to pretend to try to implement something ai-like, and these are the rules i figure are important http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/human-like-cognitive-abilities/ | 19:17 |
| kanzure | maaku: can you think of any additional constraints that should be imposed | 19:17 |
| fenn | crypto stuff all kinda looks like this to me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:One_Ring_inscription.svg | 19:18 |
| maaku | kanzure: strike AI, that sounds like generally good advice for any project ;) | 19:19 |
| kanzure | oh | 19:19 |
| kanzure | well, i intended it to be more ai-specific | 19:20 |
| kanzure | surely there are additional constraints that ai projects should have that other projects should not | 19:20 |
| fenn | deep strike AI, for long-range assault in hostile environments | 19:20 |
| fenn | .wik deep strike | 19:21 |
| yoleaux | "An attack aircraft (also called a strike aircraft or attack bomber) is a tactical military aircraft that has a primary role of attacking targets on the ground or sea, with greater precision than bombers, and which is prepared to encounter stronger low-level air defenses." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_aircraft | 19:21 |
| kanzure | seems like there probably should be ai-specific project rules | 19:22 |
| kanzure | although now i am failing to come up with any reasons | 19:22 |
| fenn | sounds like begging the question, cart before the horse thinking | 19:22 |
| kanzure | huh? | 19:22 |
| fenn | ging why should there be rules? | 19:23 |
| fenn | s/ging// | 19:23 |
| kanzure | well, let's broaden this to be about also brain emulation software development | 19:23 |
| fenn | pick one | 19:23 |
| kanzure | and there are clearly some things that are totally inappropriate/wrong to be doing when doing brain emulation development | 19:23 |
| kanzure | like cyc | 19:23 |
| kanzure | cyc would be a wrong thing to be doing | 19:23 |
| fenn | cyc is not brain emulation | 19:24 |
| kanzure | correct | 19:24 |
| kanzure | that is a very good reason why cyc should not be a part of that development effort | 19:24 |
| fenn | it's a semantic database of common knowledge | 19:24 |
| maaku | something more AI specific but along those lines... i would say have an architectural grounding in some sort of analytical theory | 19:24 |
| kanzure | as opposed to a grounding in what? | 19:24 |
| maaku | too many ai projects are of the sort 1) do something low level at scale, 2) ..., 3) strong ai will "emerge" | 19:25 |
| fenn | proof of convergence | 19:25 |
| maaku | (machien learning and neural network people seem to fall pray to this especially) | 19:26 |
| kanzure | hmh | 19:26 |
| kanzure | -h | 19:27 |
| fenn | in machine learning we had to show that the optimization function converged; this was done by showing that the kernel was convex by taking the double derivative... | 19:27 |
| fenn | it dredged up a lot of calculus i had forgotten and was a pain in the ass with zero utility | 19:27 |
| fenn | it seems arrogant to believe you can know the outcome of a system you don't understand | 19:29 |
| maaku | fenn: i understand there is plenty of theoretical backing to machine learning. not the point. | 19:29 |
| fenn | it's a very linear, low complexity field of math | 19:30 |
| maaku | the fallacy people fall into is saying "this construct can learn any classification problem", "i theorize that the brain is just 50 billion of these constructs", "therefore, if I had 50 billion of these at scale, that's all i need!" | 19:30 |
| fenn | it only gives interesting results because there's a lot of variables to tweak | 19:30 |
| maaku | you also need to connect those 50 billion things in a specific way, and that's where the magic is... | 19:31 |
| fenn | i'm not sure if "eureqa" counts as machine learning or not. | 19:31 |
| kanzure | now rant about "deep learning"? | 19:31 |
| kanzure | (word2vec and such) | 19:31 |
| fenn | deep learning is just more of the same, piled higher and deeper | 19:31 |
| fenn | (literally) | 19:31 |
| maaku | kanzure: no i don't intend to do that. deep learning is an important advance | 19:31 |
| maaku | but it's also not all there is to say as far as intelligence goes | 19:32 |
| fenn | the brain has a lot of other things besides neocortex | 19:32 |
| fenn | deep learning probably accurately models what happens in the neocortex | 19:32 |
| fenn | but it would never feel, or hunger for something, or focus, or remember what happened 3 seconds ago | 19:33 |
| maaku | right | 19:35 |
| fenn | word2vec feels like cheating because it skips the whole visual processing part | 19:36 |
| fenn | and the auditory processing part of reading | 19:37 |
| kanzure | "Morphometry of human cerebral cortex microcirculation: General characteristics and space-related profiles" http://ftp.tuebingen.mpg.de/pub/kyb/bweber/papers_db/2008/Lauwers/Neuroimage%202008%20Lauwers.pdf | 19:38 |
| kanzure | why hasn't todd uploaded 3d models and data dumps at low/high resolution to his serverz | 19:41 |
| kanzure | isn't this something he should be doing | 19:41 |
| kanzure | he owes us for like, stuff | 19:41 |
| kanzure | he owes us for our moral support :p | 19:42 |
| fenn | go todd, woo | 19:43 |
| fenn | we're out of peanuts over here | 19:43 |
| kanzure | "In a companion paper (Lorthois et al., Neuroimage, in press), we perform the first simulations of blood flow in an anatomically accurate large human intra-cortical vascular network (~ 10000 segments), using a 1D non-linear model taking into account the complex rheological properties of blood flow in microcirculation." | 19:45 |
| kanzure | "This model predicts blood pressure, blood flow and hematocrit distributions, volumes of functional vascular territories, regional flow at voxel and network scales, etc." | 19:46 |
| fenn | jeez this guy in #bitcoin has 256GB of RAM | 19:46 |
| kanzure | my laptop has 32 GB.. | 19:46 |
| fenn | i guess that's small potatoes compared to supercomputers but still, i'm jealous | 19:46 |
| fenn | i have a bag of 1MB ram sticks that i haven't figured out what to do with yet | 19:51 |
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| kanzure | hmm. | 20:12 |
| kanzure | oh i suppose i should add "no emergence" to the list | 20:14 |
| kanzure | but that's sort of covered by hand waving | 20:14 |
| kanzure | "but what about the experience of actually holding a book in your hands? you can't get that over the net" - batman beyond filling your head with lies since 1998 | 20:21 |
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| fenn | a book is probably the worst example they could have picked | 20:22 |
| fenn | .wik strange days | 20:22 |
| yoleaux | "Strange Days is the second album by American rock band The Doors, released in September 1967. It was a commercial success, initially earning a gold record and reaching #3 on the Billboard 200 albums chart. The album also yielded two top 30 hits and eventually a platinum certification." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_days | 20:22 |
| fenn | huh | 20:22 |
| fenn | .wik strange days film | 20:23 |
| yoleaux | "Strange Days is a 1995 Americanscience fiction action thriller film directed by Kathryn Bigelow. Co-written and produced by her ex-husband James Cameron and co-written by Jay Cocks, it stars Ralph Fiennes, Angela Bassett, Juliette Lewis, Tom Sizemore, Vincent D'Onofrio, and Michael Wincott." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_Days_(film) | 20:23 |
| fenn | bah | 20:23 |
| kanzure | in this episode, batman beats up a hyperintelligent gorilla because nobody wants a gorilla walking around town | 20:27 |
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| fenn | racist | 20:30 |
| fenn | i'm running out of faux indignation | 20:31 |
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| kanzure | "must be hot in that suit" "you get used to it" and he tells jokes | 20:40 |
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| kanzure | wut https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-braincard-powered-by-a-neural-network-chip | 20:48 |
| kanzure | "Neuromorphic Chip with 1024 artificial neurons" | 20:49 |
| fenn | is that supposed to be a lot | 20:49 |
| kanzure | "'re looking to raise at least $200k to start manufacturing in volume, which will make the BrainCard as cheap as possible. " | 20:50 |
| kanzure | i don't think so, tim | 20:50 |
| fenn | something like this shouldn't be on indiegogo | 20:50 |
| kanzure | right. definitely fucked up. | 20:50 |
| fenn | he can't deliver if doesn't make the goal, so where does the money go? | 20:50 |
| kanzure | http://neuromorthings.com/ | 20:50 |
| kanzure | ugh "In this mode the BrainCard acts as a ‘Right’ brain hemisphere for image/pattern recognition and the CPU device acts as a ‘Left’ brain hemisphere for procedural/logic & communications." | 20:51 |
| fenn | oh i guess they have 1000 prototypes already which is just about $200k at $199 each | 20:51 |
| kanzure | 1024 neurons isn't going to do much | 20:52 |
| kanzure | "we'd like to crowdsource our research and development through you!" because you can't figure out what to do with them | 20:54 |
| kanzure | "FPGA (Xilinx Spartan 6 – XA6SLX16-2CSG324C) with up to 14,579 logic elements" | 20:55 |
| fenn | i feel like if it did anything useful they would have demos | 20:56 |
| kanzure | right.. and a non-hardware implementation for demonstration purposes maybe, "it does this, but now imagine that happening 1000x faster" | 20:57 |
| fenn | but 1000x faster gets you nothing because its inputs aren't changing | 20:58 |
| fenn | if they could switch between 100 sets of 1024 neurons every second that might be useful | 20:58 |
| fenn | that's almost bee-level | 20:59 |
| kanzure | that seems like something a gpu would be better at | 20:59 |
| fenn | yes | 20:59 |
| fenn | really the hardware should be able to do more | 20:59 |
| fenn | a gpu is more general purpose than a hardware neuron simulation | 21:00 |
| kanzure | i strongly doubt these are biologically-accurate neurons too | 21:00 |
| kanzure | probably just the minimum model | 21:00 |
| fenn | for a given area of silicon, you should be able to fit more simulated neurons on an asic than a gpu | 21:00 |
| fenn | it's probably just a neural net | 21:01 |
| fenn | ok useless day completed | 21:04 |
| kanzure | that's a lousy way of going about life | 21:05 |
| fenn | i liked meredith's article on weird nerds | 21:06 |
| kanzure | i wrote a few mountains of code, wrote specs, tests, and pretended to be a leet haxor | 21:06 |
| fenn | i ate coconut yogurt and baked brownies | 21:07 |
| fenn | i guess that alt-m screen switching will probably save me from getting carpal tunnel | 21:08 |
| kanzure | i also picked a fight with an ayn rand immortalist so that was a mistake | 21:08 |
| kanzure | (grg crap) | 21:09 |
| fenn | ayn rand's head was frozen and stored on the secret nazi moon base | 21:09 |
| kanzure | nah his argument was literally "Objectivism is the only way that it is possible to see that government funding of life extension is non-optimal" | 21:10 |
| fenn | i don't care who is funding it as long as someone is | 21:10 |
| kanzure | uh, s/extension/extension research/ of course | 21:10 |
| kanzure | (and that's about when i had my terrible idea) | 21:11 |
| fenn | all that free science grant money is wrecking our science economy! | 21:12 |
| kanzure | yes | 21:12 |
| kanzure | well, lots of other things are too | 21:13 |
| fenn | if only the illuminati elite were in charge... | 21:13 |
| kanzure | like intellectual property law | 21:13 |
| kanzure | and broken incentive models that don't work like you'd want | 21:13 |
| fenn | (i was kidding, if it weren't obvious) | 21:13 |
| kanzure | it | 21:13 |
| kanzure | is not | 21:13 |
| kanzure | (standing..) | 21:13 |
| fenn | for the record, i will piss on ayn rand's grave for naming her shitty philosophy "objectivism" | 21:13 |
| kanzure | go find her | 21:14 |
| kanzure | "Valhalla, NY" | 21:15 |
| fenn | there's even a video tour | 21:15 |
| fenn | .title youtu.be/OGgwyW6GNrI | 21:15 |
| yoleaux | Ayn Rand Grave - YouTube | 21:15 |
| fenn | fitting name for a cemetery town | 21:17 |
| fenn | high school mascot is the fighting valkyries | 21:17 |
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| kanzure | "Machine leanring: The high-interest credit card of technical debt" https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.com/en/us/pubs/archive/43146.pdf | 21:19 |
| fenn | is this just saying "keep it simple, stupid" | 21:21 |
| kanzure | still reading | 21:22 |
| kanzure | "In [7], dependency debt is noted as a key contributor to code complexity and technical debt in classical software engineering settings. We argue here that data dependencies in machine learning systems carry a similar capacity for building debt. Furthermore, while code dependencies can be relatively easy to identify via static analysis, linkage graphs, and the like, it is far less common that data dependencies have similar analysis ... | 21:23 |
| kanzure | ... tools. Thus, it can be inappropriately easy to build large data-dependency chains that can be difficult to untangle." | 21:23 |
| fenn | the heroku people had some stuff to say about making sure old code continues working by defining interfaces strictly and static linking (or whatever equivalent is for scripting languages) | 21:24 |
| kanzure | "Or suppose that for efficiency a particular signal will no longer be computed; are all former consumers of the signal done with it? Even if there are no references to it in the current version of the codebase, are there still production instances with older binaries that use it? Making changes safely can be difficult without automatic tooling." | 21:26 |
| kanzure | "A remarkably useful automated feature management tool was described in [6], which enables data sources and features to be annotated. Automated checks can then be run to ensure that all dependencies have the appropriate annotations, and dependency trees can be fully resolved. Since its adoption, this approach has regularly allowed a team at Google to safely delete thousands of lines of feature-related code per quarter, and has made ... | 21:26 |
| kanzure | ... verification of versions and other issues automatic. The system has on many occasions prevented accidental use of deprecated or broken features in new models." | 21:26 |
| fenn | i'm not really following this article | 21:28 |
| fenn | are they talking about how long to cache intermediates? | 21:29 |
| kanzure | "we have a bunch of experience and you should listen to us" | 21:29 |
| fenn | wow great, now please explain your wisdom in english | 21:29 |
| fenn | a few concrete examples would do wondersf | 21:30 |
| kanzure | they probably can't talk about proprietary google machine learning thingies | 21:30 |
| fenn | it's like they are from a different world that happens to overlap some of the same words we use | 21:35 |
| kanzure | their description of 1000 unused codepaths is basically a real thing that happens | 21:36 |
| fenn | "it was found possible to rip out tens of thousands of lines of unused experimental code paths." | 21:36 |
| fenn | that has nothing to do with machine learning, that's just bad software engineering practices | 21:37 |
| kanzure | this article is mostly about software engineering ("technical debt") | 21:39 |
| fenn | i guess "paying technical debt" is a bizarro-world term for "refactoring" | 21:40 |
| fenn | jeez they even cite Fowler | 21:41 |
| maaku | kanzure: maybe one more constraint: there is no single magic silver bullet which gives general artificial intelligence | 21:42 |
| fenn | evolution! | 21:42 |
| fenn | and fish! | 21:42 |
| kanzure | now for your daily dose of "totally motivated reasoning" http://decentral.ca/what-the-data-says-this-is-going-to-escalate-quickly/ | 21:43 |
| maaku | maybe this reflects my own biases, but while a special-purpose-everything AI doesn't work (as mentioned), neither does the "one single universal rule" approach | 21:43 |
| kanzure | sponsored by ray kurzweil's wig | 21:43 |
| fenn | .wik salmon of wisdom | 21:43 |
| yoleaux | "The Salmon of Knowledge (Irish: bradán feasa) is a creature figuring in the Fenian Cycle of Irish mythology. (It is sometimes identified with Fintan mac Bóchra, who was known as "The Wise" and was once transformed into a salmon.)" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmon_of_wisdom | 21:43 |
| kanzure | maaku: if i had a program that was intelligent, then is that a magic silver bullet? | 21:44 |
| maaku | kanzure: talking about the insides of the program | 21:44 |
| kanzure | i think that i would argue that there seems to be a general cognitive architecture "conserved" across species that seems to indicate all known brains operate roughly the same way | 21:45 |
| kanzure | i am having trouble, sorry, i just am i guess (probably 'cause i'm tired) | 21:45 |
| maaku | any AI project with a chance at success needs to be somewhere in the middle ground -- it ivery likely from both AI history and neurological structure that general intelligence consists of multiple modes of thinking, each with strengths and weaknesses, integrated in some way | 21:45 |
| kanzure | software is close to magic anyway or something | 21:45 |
| maaku | yeah i think we're talking past each other | 21:46 |
| kanzure | if you are arguing that "no single method will magically work", then how would anything have a chance of working? | 21:46 |
| kanzure | we are probably talking past each other, hehe | 21:46 |
| fenn | he's identifying a trend in the unfounded pronouncements of past AI researchers | 21:46 |
| kanzure | i'm with you so far | 21:47 |
| fenn | "neural networks will solve everything" or "lambda calculus is god's gift to mankind" | 21:47 |
| kanzure | how about something like, "only make claims backed up by evidence" | 21:47 |
| fenn | you mean an existence proof? (ala constructivism) | 21:47 |
| maaku | i'm talking about a common failure mode, where a would-be AGI developer shows how neural net update rule X, or cellular automata Y, or technobable gizmo Z is _technically_ capable of learning or expressing any computation | 21:48 |
| kanzure | ah i see.... yeah the computational reductionism has been annoying for sure | 21:48 |
| * kanzure glares at wolfram | 21:48 | |
| fenn | .wa the meaning of life, the universe, and everything | 21:48 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, no result! | 21:49 |
| maaku | right. wolfram, kurzweil, the NARS guy (wang? i forget his name and too lazy to google) | 21:49 |
| JayDugger | Not even a Douglas Adams quote? | 21:49 |
| fenn | such a let down | 21:49 |
| kanzure | wolfram probably thinks he's better than douglas adams | 21:49 |
| kanzure | okay, cheap shot | 21:49 |
| JayDugger | Good point. He has cause. | 21:49 |
| maaku | so, therefore, (this is where they go wrong), all we need is X, Y, or Z running on enough computing power, etc. | 21:49 |
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| kanzure | yeah i am highly skeptical of "if only we had more computing capacity" | 21:50 |
| maaku | -or- X, Y, Z attached to a proper perceiption system, or whatever supporting component they think is holding us back | 21:51 |
| maaku | or a big enough Cyc database, etc. | 21:51 |
| maaku | like i said, it might expose my biases, but I think the reasoning component itself might have quite a few different components to it which are not reduceable to one single principle | 21:51 |
| maaku | and due to past failures I tend to write off anybody who thinks they've discovered The One True Base Computation | 21:52 |
| maaku | at least not in a constructivist way | 21:53 |
| maaku | it's kinda like saying "I just discovered all computation can be reduced to a network of NAND gates. All we need to do is build trillions of NAND gates!" | 21:54 |
| kanzure | this is a weird thing: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/Evolution%20of%20probabilistic%20consensus%20in%20digital%20organisms.pdf | 21:54 |
| kanzure | i am curious if you have a pre-baked rant about things like http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/Understanding%20evolutionary%20potential%20in%20virtual%20CPU%20instruction%20set%20architectures.pdf | 21:55 |
| kanzure | this seemed like an interesting direction but some of his implementation decisions were bizarre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tierra_(computer_simulation) | 21:59 |
| fenn | maaku isn't that true though | 21:59 |
| kanzure | "Tierra is a computer simulation developed by ecologist Thomas S. Ray in the early 1990s in which computer programs compete for central processing unit (CPU) time and access to main memory. In this context, the computer programs in Tierra are considered to be evolvable and can mutate, self-replicate and recombine. Tierra's virtual machine is written in C.[1] It operates on a custom instruction set designed to facilitate code changes and ... | 21:59 |
| kanzure | ... reordering, including features such as jump to template[2] (as opposed to the relative or absolute jumps common to most instruction sets)." | 21:59 |
| maaku | kanzure: rant? it looks like interesting work | 21:59 |
| kanzure | "The basic Tierra model has been used to experimentally explore in silico the basic processes of evolutionary and ecological dynamics. Processes such as the dynamics of punctuated equilibrium, host-parasite co-evolution and density-dependent natural selection are amenable to investigation within the Tierra framework. A notable difference between Tierra and more conventional models of evolutionary computation, such as genetic algorithms, ... | 22:00 |
| kanzure | ... is that there is no explicit, or exogenous fitness function built into the model. Often in such models there is the notion of a function being "optimized"; in the case of Tierra, the fitness function is endogenous: there is simply survival and death." | 22:00 |
| kanzure | maaku: sure, sorry, i classify many things as rants | 22:00 |
| fenn | thats a terrible screenshot of tierra | 22:01 |
| fenn | better screenshots http://web.stanford.edu/class/sts129/Alife/html/Tierra.htm | 22:02 |
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| fenn | a lot of the dynamics centered around jumping ahead in the memory map and building structures that benefitted you after the jump | 22:02 |
| maaku | kanzure: so my planned architecture involves sort-of gp learning computational frames using MOSES : http://wiki.opencog.org/w/Meta-Optimizing_Semantic_Evolutionary_Search | 22:03 |
| kanzure | none of the implementations of evolutionary computation look good to me | 22:04 |
| maaku | having an instruction set suitable to gp learning is an important detail. it'll be interesting to see what this group learned (I saved the PDF for later review) | 22:04 |
| kanzure | none of them seem to allow for the sorts of accidental shit that happens in the real world | 22:04 |
| maaku | kanzure: yup. that's why evolutionary search is not the One Technique To Rule Them All | 22:04 |
| kanzure | well, i mean, the evolutionary search implementers got lazy | 22:04 |
| fenn | no it just means GA simulations are too low rez and their fitness functions suck | 22:05 |
| kanzure | ehhhh | 22:05 |
| kanzure | prove it | 22:05 |
| fenn | evolution happened | 22:05 |
| fenn | we are here now because of it | 22:05 |
| fenn | how is that not a silver bullet | 22:06 |
| maaku | MOSES is pretty good in that regard. The key takeaway from MOSES was that it needed to have a program description language that was specially crafted to have certain properties in order for the generated programs to be succinct ana analyzable | 22:06 |
| maaku | fenn: so? | 22:06 |
| maaku | it's not even clear that evolution leads to intelligence | 22:07 |
| fenn | ok not necessarily "one technique to rule them all" but it does at least provide an existence proof of a silver bullet algorithm (however inefficient) | 22:07 |
| maaku | there's a lot of anomolies around how homo sapiens evolved | 22:07 |
| fenn | maaku: are you doubting that you are in fact intelligent? or some sort of divine intervention? or what? | 22:07 |
| maaku | ok scratch that. your misundstanding is simpler | 22:07 |
| maaku | i'm not talking about the process for creating intelligence, i'm talking about how the intelligence works | 22:08 |
| fenn | is there a difference? | 22:08 |
| maaku | "evolution" describes how the human brain came to be, not how it works | 22:08 |
| maaku | if i want to make a brain, "evolution!" is not an answer | 22:08 |
| maaku | not any more than "randomly assign transistor gates, check if it is intelligent, repeat." | 22:09 |
| fenn | if your MOSES built an AI would you say it was MOSES | 22:09 |
| fenn | evolution is not simply random though | 22:10 |
| fenn | bah | 22:10 |
| fenn | bruteforcing passwords is quicker with a markov chain than simply enumerating in binary | 22:11 |
| fenn | likewise, evolution finds quicker ways to adapt | 22:11 |
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| fenn | one of these adaptations is "intelligence" | 22:12 |
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| fenn | intelligence adapted "artificial intelligence" | 22:12 |
| fenn | i was going to say something about transposons and gene cassettes | 22:13 |
| fenn | but i think it's time for bed | 22:13 |
| JayDugger | Good night. | 22:14 |
| maaku | fenn: i'm not talking about using MOSES to build me an AI | 22:14 |
| maaku | i'm talking about using MOSES as a component inside of an AI I design, for the purpose of learning new things in specific types of context | 22:14 |
| maaku | good night | 22:15 |
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