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| cntrational | recently i've been starting to get more inclined to the idea that capitalism may be efficient, but it decreases overall human happiness | 00:40 |
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| nsh | it certainly decreases the happiness of overalls | 03:49 |
| nsh | the industrial revolution was not good for overall quality of life | 03:50 |
| nsh | oil, rips, tears, chemical spills | 03:50 |
| nsh | nasty, brutish and machine-washed | 03:50 |
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| maaku | kanzure: sorry was afk at that point | 04:11 |
| maaku | cntrational: congratulations. recognizing that efficient is not necessarily the same as utility maximizing is the first step | 04:12 |
| maaku | (towards insanity as you realize just how fucked up and self-destroying the world is) | 04:13 |
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| archels | nsh, sounds very Luddite | 05:07 |
| maaku | only if you're the kind of person that gives up in the face of adversary | 05:10 |
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| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 07:15 |
| Zinglon | Hi! | 07:38 |
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| * nsh smiles | 08:24 | |
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| delinquentme | kanzzzzzzzzooooo | 12:00 |
| delinquentme | I MISSH You | 12:00 |
| kanzure | feed me music or die | 12:01 |
| delinquentme | heavy or soft ? | 12:02 |
| kanzure | heaviest | 12:03 |
| delinquentme | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HraunoXufD0 | 12:05 |
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| nmz787_i1 | when I hear about pac-bio's SMRT I can only think of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcGQpjCztgA | 12:19 |
| nmz787_i1 | .title | 12:19 |
| yoleaux | The Simpsons- S-M-R-T - YouTube | 12:19 |
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| archels | kanzure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raAblA0curk | 12:50 |
| kanzure | .title | 12:51 |
| yoleaux | Chemical Brothers - Exit Planet Dust - [HQ - Full Album] - YouTube | 12:51 |
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| kanzure | hm | 12:54 |
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| kanzure | .wik Van Eck phreaking | 13:05 |
| yoleaux | "Van Eck phreaking is a form of eavesdropping in which special equipment is used to pick up side-band electronic-magnetic emissions from electronics devices that correlate to hidden signals or data for the purpose of recreating these signals or data in order to spy on the electronic device. Side-band electromagnetic radiation emissions are …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Eck_phreaking | 13:05 |
| chris_99 | marcus kuhn has got some v. cool papers | 13:11 |
| chris_99 | on that | 13:11 |
| chris_99 | *markus | 13:12 |
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| kanzure | "Astrobotic and CMU are the only Google Lunar XPRIZE team to secure all three milestone prizes." | 14:46 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, thoughts on 50 microsecond logging of float64 with python / numpy | 15:11 |
| delinquentme | specifically the persistence part... redis? | 15:11 |
| kanzure | syslog | 15:12 |
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| delinquentme | how should I specify a r/w buffer size? | 15:22 |
| delinquentme | some fraction of the machines available ram? | 15:22 |
| kanzure | what are you doing? | 15:24 |
| delinquentme | sampling a voltage reading off of an arduino | 15:25 |
| delinquentme | reading it into python via serial and then I want to write to disk | 15:26 |
| nmz787_i | delinquentme: you shouldn't worry about the time outside the arduino, I think... just add an RTC and put the time in the reading then | 15:30 |
| nmz787_i | I saw this t-shirt at lunch and now I think I have to custom order one, since they don't seem to sell them anywhere http://www.stopbuyingcrap.com/pics/sbc/intelsimpsons2.jpg | 15:30 |
| nmz787_i | I also really like this one http://thlog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/homer-internet-t-shirt.jpg | 15:31 |
| nmz787_i | 'the internet, that old thing still around?' | 15:31 |
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| nmz787_i | delinquentme: I don't think you can depend on a constant delay between arduino readings and when the get to your OS-level application, due to network contention on the USB level | 15:33 |
| delinquentme | nmz787_i, smart. | 15:35 |
| kanzure | http://blog.uber.com/eta-expectations | 15:38 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, advantages of syslog ? | 16:04 |
| delinquentme | that its just already there + is a aggregation of all system events? | 16:04 |
| kanzure | eh, this particular scenario does not seem like one that syslog is a great answer for | 16:08 |
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| -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (4 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | 16:39 | |
| -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@unaffiliated/kanzure] [Sat Dec 27 16:56:22 2014] | 16:39 | |
| [Users ##hplusroadmap] | 16:39 | |
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| -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010 | 16:39 | |
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| jrayhawk | q/window 63 | 17:22 |
| jrayhawk | whoops | 17:22 |
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| kanzure | 17:56 < kevtris> I salvaged so many chips from boards using a blowtorch | 17:56 |
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| fenn | the heat and beat method | 19:06 |
| fenn | not everyone has a vat of molten lead handy | 19:06 |
| kanzure | why did we not fcus on electronics? | 19:08 |
| kanzure | focus | 19:13 |
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| bbrittain | when did linux distros start renaming wheel to sudo? :( | 19:44 |
| kanzure | python wheel? | 19:46 |
| bbrittain | the sudoers group used to be called wheel | 19:47 |
| bbrittain | it was confusing as fuck to new people, but it was actually an homage to Robert Jordan | 19:47 |
| kanzure | why are we calling this new thing a cheese wheel then | 19:49 |
| fenn | bbrittain: since ubuntu | 19:49 |
| bbrittain | fenn: damn ubuntu | 19:50 |
| bbrittain | I think I'm gonna change my group back. hmpfh | 19:50 |
| bbrittain | I feel like an old grumpy linux user | 19:50 |
| bbrittain | next you know, I'll be complaining about systemd | 19:50 |
| bbrittain | (which I do, frequently) | 19:51 |
| fenn | "cat -v considered harmful" | 19:58 |
| kanzure | frankly i find his complaints helpful | 19:58 |
| kanzure | but really: what was the reason that skdb stuff was not electronics-specific? | 19:59 |
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| kanzure | i seem to recall some vague reasoning like "that makes too much sense" or "there's already a large electronics bias, even if datasheets suck" | 19:59 |
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| fenn | because electronics is too easy | 20:00 |
| kanzure | is that a good reason? | 20:01 |
| fenn | because there are already tools that do BOM stuff for electronics | 20:01 |
| fenn | so people would be like "why are you making yet another EDA tool" | 20:01 |
| kanzure | from the perspective of a goal like "don't make me read millions of pages of documentation", microelectronic vlsi is pretty high on the list (and bom tools are a part of using this but not the whole story) | 20:02 |
| fenn | it is at least a set of standards that exist that one could point to and say "hey why does your industry suck so much, be like these guys" | 20:02 |
| kanzure | s/read/read or write | 20:02 |
| kanzure | sorry, but i lost track about who you are pointing to what for which reason | 20:03 |
| fenn | electronics industries follow good practices much of the time, is all i'm saying | 20:04 |
| kanzure | true, but still not nearly apt-get-land | 20:05 |
| fenn | lately they've been skimpy with documentation and NDA bullshit though | 20:05 |
| kanzure | (well, more nearly, i suppose) | 20:05 |
| fenn | also because electronics don't really help you build more electronics in easily specified ways, with the exception of circuit board prototyping | 20:08 |
| fenn | (computers help with CAD but that process is hard to describe) | 20:08 |
| fenn | i've been watching steve play minecraft FTB and a lot of the things in it remind me of what i was going for with SKDB and automation | 20:10 |
| fenn | like there is a box that stores items and you can search through it for the item you want by typing a regex, and it will pipe the item to another box that assembles it based on a schematic | 20:11 |
| kanzure | yes it's true that there's a lot of things missing if you choose only electronics... but you still get a lot out of it. | 20:11 |
| fenn | then why hasn't anyone else done it | 20:11 |
| kanzure | a reasonable question, i don't have any answers at the moment | 20:12 |
| fenn | probably because it's easier to just order from digikey than to write a program that orders from digikey | 20:13 |
| kanzure | because the alternative ("run your own cmos fab") is "lots of hard ridiculous work that i thought cost a billion bucks anyway" | 20:13 |
| fenn | oh | 20:14 |
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| fenn | yeah that's not feasible | 20:14 |
| kanzure | you don't need a billion dollar fab | 20:14 |
| kanzure | but you also can't get anything done if you are paying $10k per wafer | 20:14 |
| fenn | so you're forced to use commodity components, big deal | 20:15 |
| fenn | FPGA or CPLD works fine for most applications, bitcoin is just ridiculous about efficiency | 20:15 |
| kanzure | oh, then i could come u pwith reasons like "nobody wants to build and support a product with lots of commodity parts" and things like form factor, whereas if you are specifically building stuff on a budget that isn't mass produced, you're more okay with such things | 20:16 |
| fenn | "nobody wants to build and support a product with lots of custom parts" | 20:16 |
| fenn | there i fixed it | 20:16 |
| kanzure | there are far more things to do with (micro)electronics than just fpgas (lots of real world interface stuff) | 20:16 |
| fenn | you dont need a billion dollar fab to make custom sensor devices | 20:17 |
| kanzure | right, but i was trying to explain why nobody made an skdb-for-electronics-specifically thing | 20:17 |
| kanzure | and "i thought it cost a billion bucks" is a good explanation | 20:17 |
| cntrational | https://www.edx.org/course/artificial-intelligence-uc-berkeleyx-cs188-1x-0 hmm, should i sign up for this | 20:18 |
| kanzure | and i guess sensor stuff is more like "nobody needs that much equipment"? i dunno why nobody has bothered really | 20:18 |
| fenn | there aren't that many different semiconductor lab devices | 20:19 |
| kanzure | heh i bet some whippersnapper could put all of the conventional molecular biology lab electronics into a single device, and just stuff it into different machines | 20:20 |
| fenn | bulk deposition, doping, ovens, etching, masking, wire bonding and packaging... | 20:20 |
| fenn | yeah it's called an arduino and some mosfets | 20:20 |
| kanzure | yeah but i mean someone actually doing it :p | 20:20 |
| fenn | touche | 20:20 |
| kanzure | as far as i know everyone selling lab equipment is doing custom electronics for everything | 20:21 |
| fenn | they are stupid and bad | 20:21 |
| cntrational | pfff, didn't notice the prereqs | 20:22 |
| kanzure | i can already tell by the url that it will be a waste of everyone's time | 20:22 |
| fenn | cntrational: just read the norvig+russell book | 20:22 |
| cntrational | fenn: hmm, okay | 20:22 |
| kanzure | i don't really buy "they are stupid and bad" as an explanation for the other question ("why has nobody bothered") | 20:22 |
| kanzure | i mean life is easy if you are happy with "they are stupid", but you're also often wrong | 20:23 |
| fenn | i didn't say that | 20:23 |
| kanzure | i know i know | 20:23 |
| fenn | i don't know why nobody has made a package manager for electronics | 20:23 |
| kanzure | but i was going to say that earlier | 20:23 |
| kanzure | and i didn't | 20:23 |
| kanzure | even in the surface mount domain | 20:23 |
| kanzure | surface mount machine manufacturers probably don't get software that well, so maybe they don't bother- but a packager would really sell their machine methinks | 20:24 |
| fenn | you mean pick and place machines? | 20:24 |
| kanzure | (not that there aren't other reasons to bother) | 20:24 |
| kanzure | oh sorry, yes | 20:24 |
| fenn | hm. maybe ask ladyada and philip torrone how their adventures with pick and place are going | 20:24 |
| fenn | "Advanced hacking! | 20:25 |
| fenn | DIY tray - Make your own tray holder!" | 20:25 |
| kanzure | not encouraging | 20:26 |
| fenn | so l33t | 20:26 |
| fenn | maybe anything physical at all counts as "advanced" for electronics people | 20:26 |
| kanzure | certainly for software people | 20:26 |
| fenn | possibly an industrial pick and place machine is too expensive to let sit idle (in opportunity cost) and so you have to employ people to keep it running 24/7 | 20:27 |
| kanzure | nah there's lots of cheapo shenzhen desktop pick and place machines these days | 20:28 |
| fenn | it would be better if you just farmed the demand out to the internet with a sensible package manager though | 20:28 |
| kanzure | snoop in #szdiy sometime | 20:28 |
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| fenn | $8k is a fair amount of capital to be gathering dust under your workbench | 20:29 |
| fenn | could be worse tho | 20:29 |
| kanzure | a few runs of "stuff" could cover that, right? | 20:29 |
| fenn | http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/desktop-pick-and-place-machine-led_60012381969/showimage.html | 20:29 |
| kanzure | how price competitive is the part-filled pcb market these days | 20:29 |
| fenn | very | 20:30 |
| kanzure | hmm. | 20:30 |
| fenn | latency is expensive though | 20:30 |
| fenn | low latency i mean | 20:30 |
| kanzure | does not bode well for "pay for it with one or two runs of some bullshit from american bullshitters" | 20:30 |
| fenn | the problem is you won't get a full run from american bullshitters because anyone making 1000 boards will do research on prices first | 20:31 |
| fenn | it really makes sense to have a standard set of components that are loaded in the machine at all times, and anything else costs extra | 20:31 |
| kanzure | wait why did i start talking about price | 20:32 |
| fenn | i did | 20:32 |
| kanzure | btw there was a pick and place standardization thing that upverter and octopart were involved in, and some other startup that had a long 20-foot pick and place production line thingy | 20:32 |
| kanzure | trying to find link | 20:32 |
| fenn | i have seen quotes in the $500k-1M range for advanced pick and place machines, i thought the entire industry was like that | 20:33 |
| gwillen | 20:18:18 < cntrational> https://www.edx.org/course/artificial-intelligence-uc-berkeleyx-cs188-1x-0 hmm, should i sign up for this | 20:33 |
| kanzure | no | 20:33 |
| gwillen | cntrational: it's not exactly hardcore, but I enjoyed it | 20:33 |
| gwillen | cntrational: as I recall it's mostly about game-playing agents, game-tree search, A*, that kind of thing | 20:34 |
| gwillen | so not quite what I expected from the title | 20:34 |
| gwillen | although 'classifying handwritten digits and photographs' sounds quite different from what I remember, so maybe they've added stuff to the course | 20:35 |
| kanzure | fenn: i'm sure there's lots of high end stuff, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8qkaTsr2_o&t=70s | 20:35 |
| kanzure | "feed/reel exchange during production" haha | 20:37 |
| cntrational | gwillen: hmm, okay | 20:38 |
| fenn | why the fuck are they still using cartesian axis machines | 20:39 |
| fenn | that is a job for a deltabot | 20:39 |
| kanzure | hahaha: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRu02F6AOmg&t=40s | 20:39 |
| fenn | yeah the fuji rotary placement head is pretty cool | 20:41 |
| kanzure | prolly a few million bucks | 20:45 |
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| kanzure | http://hackaday.io/project/963-300-pick-and-place-3d-printer | 21:06 |
| kanzure | "Our BOM will eventually be in our custom FireBOM system" | 21:06 |
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| kanzure | https://github.com/firepick-delta/firepick-delta/wiki | 21:06 |
| kanzure | their link is broken http://165.225.149.255:8080/firebom/rest/build?url=https://github.com/firepick1/FirePick/wiki/AFPD0001&x=33&y=8 | 21:07 |
| kanzure | they are using google docs to store their xml bom :( | 21:08 |
| kanzure | http://firepick1.github.io/ | 21:08 |
| kanzure | seems to be made by java people :/ http://delta.firepick.org/developers/ | 21:10 |
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| JayDugger | Good evening. | 22:16 |
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