| --- Log opened Sun Feb 22 00:00:01 2015 | ||
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| archels | fenn: neat, reminds me of the optimal power transfer theorem in electronics, which is when the external load is exactly equal to the internal load of the power source | 01:58 |
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| kanzure | beep bloop | 04:41 |
| justanotheruser | hello | 04:50 |
| kanzure | hi | 04:54 |
| justanotheruser | this is pretty neato http://www.getmagicnow.com/ | 04:58 |
| kanzure | "yes i would like one hundred liters of human blood. please hurry." | 04:59 |
| justanotheruser | Well it has to be legal | 04:59 |
| kanzure | blood is legal | 05:00 |
| justanotheruser | (I don't know if that is) | 05:00 |
| justanotheruser | Is it legal for you to own without a some special government approval stamp? | 05:00 |
| justanotheruser | lol, that sounds dumb | 05:00 |
| justanotheruser | is it legal for you to buy I mean | 05:01 |
| kanzure | many laws are dumb | 05:01 |
| justanotheruser | I mean it sounds dumb because you already own blood | 05:01 |
| justanotheruser | I guess it fills a research purpose | 05:01 |
| justanotheruser | I wonder if they can get you mice | 05:01 |
| kanzure | they could probably figure out snake food mice, but not lab mice | 05:02 |
| justanotheruser | hackernews gets a bit tiring. It's usually a bad bitcoin related idea, a startup, why you're doing X wrong, check out this new language feature, <rust thing here> | 05:08 |
| JayDugger | Let's see if they can deliver bullets. | 05:15 |
| JayDugger | Or even better, liquor. | 05:16 |
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| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_trade#The_Red_Market | 07:16 |
| kanzure | "Currently, it is estimated that about 10% of all transplants occur illegally, with the Internet acting as a facilitator.[72] For 2006, it was estimated that at least 4000 prisoners were executed to supply approximately 8000 kidneys and 3000 livers for foreign buyers.[72] In 2007, 2500 kidney transplants were bought in Pakistan, with foreign recipients making up two-thirds of the purchases.[37] As of 2007, the Voluntary Health ... | 07:17 |
| kanzure | ... Association of India estimates that approximately 2000 Indians sell a kidney every year. And in Canada and the United Kingdom, experts estimate that about 30 to 50 patients illegally purchased organs abroad.[39]" | 07:17 |
| kanzure | "skin ($10 per square inch)" | 07:17 |
| kanzure | hmm "While there is a high demand, and correspondingly a very high price, for vital organs such as hearts or lungs, transplant tourism and organ trafficking of these parts is very rare due to the sophisticated nature and the state-of-the-art facilities required for such transplants.[75]" | 07:18 |
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| kanzure | "The solution is obvious though. All humans should live within the same nanometer cube." - #bitcoin-dev | 08:49 |
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| kanzure | _TK_: hi | 09:18 |
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| _TK_ | kanzure, hello :) | 09:57 |
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| heath | http://scistarter.com/project/995-Nanocrafter | 10:15 |
| heath | http://blogs.plos.org/citizensci/2015/02/22/nanocrafter-playing-game-synthetic-biology/ | 10:15 |
| heath | http://nanocrafter.org/game | 10:16 |
| heath | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaQEQ8Tiu_0 | 10:16 |
| yoleaux | Nanocrafter - YouTube | 10:16 |
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| heath | idea: http://www.dezeen.com/2015/02/10/paul-gong-human-hyena-synthetic-biology-rotten-food/ | 10:18 |
| FourFire | kanzure, lol | 10:19 |
| kanzure | genius bitcoin strategy http://imgur.com/AIjxOWq | 10:20 |
| heath | google alerts isn't as useful as i thought it was | 10:27 |
| heath | it only monitors news sites | 10:27 |
| heath | time to make a better version of it i guess | 10:27 |
| heath | .title http://www.nature.com/srep/2015/150130/srep08132/full/srep08132.html | 10:32 |
| yoleaux | Synechococcus elongatus UTEX 2973, a fast growing cyanobacterial chassis for biosynthesis using light and CO2 : Scientific Reports : Nature Publishing Group | 10:32 |
| heath | from a group at ut austin | 10:32 |
| heath | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_microfluidics_research_groups | 10:33 |
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| maaku | anyone in this group in berkeley or oakland? i'm going to be up there this afternoon | 10:57 |
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| kanzure | maaku: prolly fenn | 11:04 |
| maaku | i just sent him a PM | 11:04 |
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| kanzure | other things to do with selective breeding programs: easier in vitro fertilization | 11:44 |
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| heath | http://www.bio.anl.gov/microbialbebop.htm | 11:58 |
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| kanzure | i have decided that these people are bad biologists http://intelligence.org/files/EmbryoSelection.pdf | 12:14 |
| kanzure | you don't need to select multiple embryos if you can just inject pre-methylated genomic dna | 12:15 |
| kanzure | and why would you want to extract sperm anyway... just use dna editing. | 12:15 |
| kanzure | this is infuriating. i never knew this paper was so awful. | 12:16 |
| kanzure | oh this is the 2014 version | 12:16 |
| kanzure | fenn: you should tell carl shulman he is an idiot and he needs to fix this | 12:17 |
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| kanzure | andytoshi: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/Bioelectric%20discharges%20of%20isolated%20cat%20brain%20after%20revival%20from%20years%20of%20frozen%20storage.pdf | 12:57 |
| andytoshi | thx kanzure | 12:58 |
| kanzure | wait a sec.. chaimov is in portland? | 12:58 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: you should consider finding chaimov. he used to be in here. | 12:58 |
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| jrayhawk | but i don't even like cryogenics | 13:57 |
| jrayhawk | i guess cellular physiology is generally interesting regardless | 13:58 |
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| kanzure | well i knew him for other reasons | 14:09 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: apparently i was stalking him for quite a while, although i have to admit i have no idea why... http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-01-02-shareyouropml.png | 14:11 |
| kanzure | also i notice that number 6 is jason bobe, heh | 14:11 |
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| justanotheruser | and then theres #21, your brother | 14:13 |
| jrayhawk | ugh, eugene | 14:13 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: my brother is much more boring | 14:13 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: oh, nevermind then | 14:14 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: if anything i need nmz787 to meet genehacker in eugene, not you | 14:15 |
| kanzure | and not chaimov | 14:15 |
| jrayhawk | you could get genehacker and chaimov to meet, at least | 14:15 |
| justanotheruser | wait, your brother is genehacker? | 14:15 |
| jrayhawk | haha | 14:15 |
| kanzure | unfortunately not | 14:15 |
| kanzure | i disowned my brother after he thought i would prefer physical photocopies of a document over email | 14:16 |
| kanzure | *instead of email | 14:16 |
| justanotheruser | Is your brother 60? | 14:16 |
| kanzure | he's a few years younger than me | 14:17 |
| justanotheruser | I don't know anyone in my age range that uses mail when they don't have to | 14:18 |
| kanzure | "If division of labor didn't work, then the whole basis of trade is wrong. You might as well do everything yourself." | 14:22 |
| fenn | your real fake brother is amish | 14:24 |
| fenn | adopt an amish hacker today! | 14:24 |
| kanzure | that's too confusing | 14:24 |
| fenn | okay, your real brother is fake amish, is that better? | 14:25 |
| jrayhawk | trade would also have a basis on available resources independent of division of labor | 14:25 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: hm interesting | 14:25 |
| kanzure | fenn: i still don't get it | 14:26 |
| jrayhawk | sounds like a brain problem. maybe you should eat more paleo eggs??? | 14:26 |
| fenn | didn't andrew start a pig farm and then decide he wasn't really into being a farmer? | 14:26 |
| fenn | or was it dinosaurs | 14:26 |
| jrayhawk | pretty sure it was dinosaurs | 14:26 |
| fenn | raptor ranching | 14:26 |
| fenn | the oldest profession in the world | 14:27 |
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| chris_99 | haha | 14:28 |
| jrayhawk | the term "raptor" got co-opted; you'll have to choose some other theropod | 14:29 |
| kanzure | fenn: maaku was searching for you | 14:29 |
| fenn | is it slang for a ruby programmor now? | 14:29 |
| fenn | "calling all tech raptors for disruptive herding" | 14:30 |
| kanzure | fenn: also, you should fix carl's understanding of embryos and genetics... http://intelligence.org/files/EmbryoSelection.pdf | 14:30 |
| fenn | am looking at that paper, and maaku has phone-fail | 14:30 |
| kanzure | fenn: if you need me to help with that i'd be happy to, but i'm 100% sure you know enough to knock some sense into him about this topic. (like, forego the embryos and save time) | 14:30 |
| kanzure | steve used to talk about embryo selection, but i would be very surprised if this is what he had in mind. considering how he knows biology things. | 14:31 |
| fenn | what is your beef with the paper exactly? | 14:32 |
| kanzure | instead of growing embryos you can just do genome editing and methylation upfront, and then insert into a cell/embryo/whatever | 14:32 |
| kanzure | there's no reason for this embryo selection stuff | 14:32 |
| kanzure | and the differentiation into gametes is a little messed up-- seems totally unnecessary. | 14:33 |
| fenn | also i don't get hwo you're supposed to IQ test a bump of cells | 14:33 |
| kanzure | the only reason i could see why you would want to use an actual embryo/fetus is if you are testing its neurons with some sort of probe, which i don't see proposed here at all | 14:33 |
| kanzure | and even if they did propose it, they would have to make some handwavery up about functional correlates of cognitive ability in utero or something.. which afaik has not been studied. | 14:34 |
| fenn | usually people who have children do it as a family, that means more than one parent | 14:34 |
| kanzure | so why not just skip all this embryo stuff and just use one embryo once you want to test some genes, instead of selecting from multiple embryos | 14:34 |
| * fenn looks around for more obvious facts | 14:34 | |
| kanzure | *selecting from a set of multiple embryos | 14:35 |
| fenn | human cloning is illegal and there's no political will for it | 14:35 |
| fenn | human genetic engineering too | 14:35 |
| fenn | um, what else | 14:35 |
| fenn | unknown unknowns | 14:35 |
| kanzure | human cloning is apparently not illegal in all states | 14:36 |
| kanzure | and also, twins exist | 14:36 |
| fenn | the cognitive impact of cloning protocols is unknown | 14:37 |
| kanzure | you don't have to use "cloning protocols" (i assume you mean somatic cell nuclear transfer) | 14:37 |
| fenn | uh, what then? crispr? | 14:38 |
| fenn | er, nevermind | 14:39 |
| fenn | im confused why you dont like gamets | 14:39 |
| fenn | gametes* | 14:39 |
| kanzure | i don't like the idea of usin embryos instead of up-front genome editing | 14:39 |
| fenn | how do you get to a baby without going through an embryo stage? | 14:40 |
| kanzure | you don't need to go through the embryo stage for every conceivable heritable trait >:( | 14:40 |
| fenn | you don't? | 14:40 |
| kanzure | in the absence of knowledge about dna i think it would be safe to say embryo selection is totally necessary | 14:41 |
| fenn | unless you're aware of some extraordinarily high efficiency transformation vector, i think heritable traits have to go through the germ line at some point | 14:41 |
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| fenn | there's no "apt-get install gene" for the human body | 14:42 |
| kanzure | i wasn't claiming there was | 14:42 |
| kanzure | also, one argument i would accept from you is something about methylation, which you have not argued.... | 14:43 |
| kanzure | (but i think most polymerases copy methylation correctly anyway, so meh?) | 14:43 |
| fenn | yes methylation is a problem, but you seem to be aware o that | 14:43 |
| fenn | polymerases do not copy methylation | 14:43 |
| kanzure | what about methyltransferase, is that a thing | 14:43 |
| fenn | that adds methyl groups | 14:44 |
| kanzure | .wik methyltransferase | 14:44 |
| yoleaux | "Methyltransferases are a large group of enzymes that all methylate their substrates but can be split into several subclasses based on their structural features. The most common class of methyltransferases is class I, all of which contain a Rossman fold for binding S-Adenosyl methionine (SAM)." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyltransferase | 14:44 |
| fenn | it transfers it from folate or whatever to dna or whatever | 14:44 |
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| kanzure | i've never looked at the mechanism of transferring epigenetic state | 14:46 |
| fenn | the blastocyst dna is made from half the mother's dna and half the father's dna, both of which are methylated | 14:47 |
| fenn | the rest is ... "methylation factors" apparently | 14:48 |
| kanzure | i mean enzymatically | 14:48 |
| jrayhawk | there's also the cytosine oxygenases for 5hmC, 5fC and 5caC | 14:48 |
| fenn | yeah ask jrayhawk he knows way more about this than any of us | 14:49 |
| kanzure | assuming that i absolutely had to have physically instantiated gametes, embryos and everything for all of this, i would also worry about selecting embryos that don't actually produce a viable human, but might specialize in whatever genomic changes you were looking for | 14:51 |
| jrayhawk | i have no idea how initial methylation state happens; from what i understand there's nothing during meiosis to record it, but it's possible to severely disrupt a bunch of seemingly one-time epigenetic state-writing processes during the gamete formation phase | 14:52 |
| kanzure | safely disrupt? | 14:52 |
| jrayhawk | which is where all the "crazy" grandparent epigenetic disease papers come from ("crazy" just being an artifact of how badly lifecycles are taught in biology) | 14:53 |
| fenn | because lifecycle begins with meiosis? | 14:53 |
| jrayhawk | that gamete cells are formed in utero, so we have two generations of lifecycle overlap | 14:54 |
| fenn | right | 14:55 |
| * fenn mumbles something about the flynn effect | 14:56 | |
| jrayhawk | s/nothing during meiosis to record it/nothing during meiosis to record half of it/ | 14:59 |
| fenn | it's probably symmetrical anyway | 15:00 |
| jrayhawk | what do you mean "symmetrical"? | 15:00 |
| kanzure | what's the point of doing selection on embryos though. can't you mutate methylated dna anyway? | 15:00 |
| fenn | the same methylation patterns on both strands of diploid dna | 15:00 |
| jrayhawk | both? they're torn apart and reconstructed; the epigenetics are only attached to cysteine. | 15:01 |
| jrayhawk | er | 15:01 |
| jrayhawk | cytosine | 15:01 |
| jrayhawk | that thing | 15:01 |
| fenn | what's torn apart? | 15:01 |
| fenn | dna recombination just swaps huge long sequences around | 15:01 |
| kanzure | i believe he means dna | 15:02 |
| jrayhawk | ah, yeah, okay, nevermind | 15:02 |
| kanzure | no i meant fenn | 15:02 |
| kanzure | or i mean, i meant you | 15:03 |
| fenn | cytosine is the C in GATTACA | 15:03 |
| fenn | (why is there no standard ordering for base pairs) | 15:03 |
| kanzure | ATGC is fairly standard | 15:04 |
| kanzure | that should be your web hosting company | 15:04 |
| fenn | GCAT Labs the most hipster DNA hosting company in the world | 15:04 |
| jrayhawk | man, 'phragmoplast' is a good word | 15:05 |
| fenn | the logo is an alleycat snorting DNA off a wafer | 15:06 |
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| fenn | like this but with more attitude https://abagond.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/flav.jpg | 15:09 |
| kanzure | perhaps it would be prudent to acquire somewhat more recent cultural references | 15:10 |
| kanzure | like ipadchainz | 15:10 |
| fenn | lame | 15:10 |
| kanzure | https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-mXhDSIOCaWI/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAAEQ/6Cgo_XtL6f0/photo.jpg | 15:10 |
| fenn | blockchainz the chainz that setz you free | 15:12 |
| kanzure | "i might be wearing a blockchain, but it's still made out of gold" | 15:12 |
| kanzure | wait, weren't we talking about methylation | 15:15 |
| jrayhawk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trithorax-group_proteins christ, this gets complicated | 15:18 |
| kanzure | aren't there also supposed to be mRNA fragments that modify gene expression as well | 15:21 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_expression#Transcriptional_regulation | 15:22 |
| jrayhawk | unrelated: http://pubs.acs.org/stoken/presspac/presspac/full/10.1021/am507990m | 15:27 |
| jrayhawk | .title | 15:27 |
| yoleaux | An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie | 15:27 |
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| kanzure | well, an in vitro fertilization chip is doable if that's necessary | 17:08 |
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| nmz787 | i've been thinking of how to do that lately | 17:37 |
| nmz787 | extracting eggs can lead to complications though, not something i'd really like to subject my mate-of-choice to... which seems like it would lead to less-than-optimal eggs in a personal case, for me at least | 17:38 |
| Viper168 | so, you'd have scrambled eggs? | 17:40 |
| kanzure | why are you still here, Viper168 | 17:40 |
| Viper168 | I love you | 17:41 |
| kanzure | any other reasons? | 17:41 |
| Viper168 | because obviously the topic interests me | 17:41 |
| kanzure | yes but your messages are always low quality and awful. so why would you be in here? | 17:41 |
| Viper168 | only if you take them seriously | 17:42 |
| kanzure | scrambled eggs is not particularly funny or clever | 17:42 |
| kanzure | if you want to eat human eggs, just say so | 17:42 |
| Viper168 | lol | 17:42 |
| nmz787 | it seems some in-vivo mechanism would be the only way... pass the sperm through some pre-treatment, then whichever of the selected makes it, initiates a self-check program | 17:58 |
| cluckj | SPERM RACES | 18:18 |
| cluckj | oh I see what you did there | 18:19 |
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| nmz787 | $59 quad-core intel CPU talbet with IPS (win 8.1 only it seems) http://www.microcenter.com/product/439773/TW700_Tablet_-_Black | 19:36 |
| nmz787 | with USB 2.0 full-size port and micro HDMI | 19:37 |
| nmz787 | and micro USB for charging | 19:37 |
| nmz787 | .title http://www.adaptagrams.org/ | 19:55 |
| yoleaux | Adaptagrams: Tools for Adaptive Diagrams | 19:55 |
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| fenn | amateur structured light 3d scanning is getting pretty high quality results with just regular cameras and projectors http://forum.david-3d.com/download/file.php?id=4730&mode=view | 21:19 |
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| nmz787 | it really upsets me that the 3d camera in my HTC M8 doesn't have a 3D scanning app... but you know, it has a useless focus-after-you-shoot picture editor thing | 21:59 |
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| fenn | sounds like a light field camera, not a "3d camera" whatever taht is | 23:04 |
| fenn | depth of field sensor and 2 cameras | 23:06 |
| fenn | oh one of the cameras is the depth of field sensor | 23:06 |
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| --- Log closed Mon Feb 23 00:00:02 2015 | ||
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