| --- Log opened Fri Mar 13 00:00:10 2015 | ||
| --- Day changed Fri Mar 13 2015 | ||
| fenn | delinquentme: that was the most terrible science article i've read in a while | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| fenn | .title http://www.sciencemag.org/content/347/6227/1221.full | 00:02 |
| yoleaux | Synthesis of many different types of organic small molecules using one automated process | 00:02 |
| fenn | oh, this is the paper nmz787 just linked to | 00:02 |
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| * fenn pecks at Panko_ | 00:10 | |
| Panko_ | eep | 00:10 |
| justanotheruser | why can't research papers have catchy titles like "You won't believe how many different organic molecules this one neat automated process can be used to synthesize" and "7 ways the chi-squared test is the greatest thing ever" | 00:12 |
| fenn | they can | 00:12 |
| justanotheruser | are they in the buzzfeed journal of medicine? | 00:12 |
| fenn | justanotheruser: i guess you didn't see this: http://www.oneweirdkerneltrick.com | 00:22 |
| fenn | ""Statistics Professors HATE Him! Doctor's discovery revealed the secret to learning any problem with just 10 training samples. Watch this shocking video and learn how rapidly you can find a solution to your learning problems using this one sneaky kernel trick!" | 00:23 |
| justanotheruser | they spent way too much time on this http://www.oneweirdkerneltrick.com/swaggr.pdf | 00:24 |
| fenn | adderall.. | 00:25 |
| fenn | kanzure do you think your android market scraper still works? | 00:27 |
| fenn | downloader thingy | 00:27 |
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| catern | justanotheruser: no, it was a paper submitted for SIGBOVIK | 00:59 |
| catern | justanotheruser: so that effort did not go to waste | 01:00 |
| fenn | .wik sigbovik | 01:02 |
| yoleaux | "Alan Conrad Bovik (born June 25, 1958) is an American engineer, and Curry/Cullen Trust Endowed Chair Professor at The University of Texas at Austin, and Director of the Laboratory for Image and Video Engineering (LIVE)." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Bovik | 01:02 |
| fenn | hm... | 01:03 |
| fenn | our flagship conference SIGBOVIK (the conference of the ACH Special Interest Group on Harry Qualia Bovik) | 01:03 |
| fenn | held April 1 | 01:04 |
| fenn | heh the name changes each page reload | 01:04 |
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| archels | Randal Koene lives! | 03:21 |
| archels | (and posts to the OpenWorm mailing list) | 03:21 |
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| archels | thanks Springer, for getting back to me over my Nov 28th, 2014 support e-mail notifying you of a corrupted PDF | 04:33 |
| chris_99 | haha | 04:33 |
| archels | thanks also for saying that it has been "fixed" while not actually doing anything | 04:33 |
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| kanzure | fenn: yes, because they can't afford to deprecate their api | 06:07 |
| kanzure | someone should write an essay (oops i mean blog post) explaining why bill gates should just buy elsevier | 06:09 |
| kanzure | or instead of saying bill gates you could use a clever acronym like BGE (bill gates equivalent) | 06:09 |
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| andytoshi | maaku: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_aPLOwJkds very exciting talk by sean carroll (mainly exciting because of the real-time arguing going on amongst the physicists in the room) on the born rule | 08:23 |
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| maaku | andytoshi: thanks | 09:57 |
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| nmz787_i | kanzure: do you like these? http://ergodox.org/ | 10:21 |
| kanzure | not really, but JayDugger does | 10:23 |
| kanzure | and dingo | 10:23 |
| kanzure | maybe not those specifically | 10:23 |
| kanzure | i am not a fan of ergonomic keyboards | 10:23 |
| nmz787_i | ah | 10:23 |
| nmz787_i | some folks around here are going to do a group build of those | 10:24 |
| kanzure | :( | 10:24 |
| kanzure | they should make superfast keyboards instead (all existing designs are not superfast) | 10:25 |
| kanzure | on a related note, we are not anywhere close to maximum information extraction from hand and finger movements per second | 10:25 |
| kanzure | 10-15 keystrokes/second does not seem to be the maximum | 10:27 |
| kanzure | (and really this is 10-15 keystrokes/second over a set of possible keystrokes) | 10:28 |
| nmz787_i | i will pass your comments along | 10:36 |
| kanzure | i wonder if electric shocks applied immediately after a keystroke has been registered would be a aster way to disengage from a single keystroke | 10:38 |
| kanzure | s/aster/faster | 10:38 |
| chris_99 | i thought of making a keyboard training system, that electrocutes you if you get the key wrong | 10:49 |
| nmz787_i | :O | 10:51 |
| chris_99 | maybe it gives you chocolate if you get it right | 10:52 |
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| kanzure | cocaine would be more effective | 11:00 |
| chris_99 | mmm heh | 11:01 |
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| kanzure | if you could convince bill gates to buy eslevier, what would you tell him to do with it | 11:15 |
| maaku | why give eslevier an exit? | 11:15 |
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| kanzure | maaku: to buy all their papers | 11:16 |
| kanzure | and then release them, i suppose. but you still need to wind down their physical publishing operations. and pay their illustrators, etc. | 11:16 |
| maaku | i'd rather have BGE destroy their business model and destroy them, and then pick up the papers for pennies on the dollar | 11:17 |
| kanzure | bill gates is probably 100% uninterested in having his foundation run elsevier | 11:17 |
| kanzure | that sort of fight may not be possible | 11:17 |
| kanzure | and i encourage you to think of alternatives | 11:17 |
| kanzure | because a good solution to the problem is worth... lots. | 11:17 |
| kanzure | lots of existential karmic points, at least | 11:17 |
| maaku | andytoshi: i really wish Sean Carroll would introduce the concept in some other way | 11:19 |
| maaku | self-locating uncertainty is the most uninteresting problem ever | 11:19 |
| maaku | "when I get to the end of the slides is when you can ask me all the questions about whether or not there is really self-locating uncertainty" <-- yeah I'm not the only one | 11:23 |
| andytoshi | maaku: i was unaware that you colud get the born probabilities from self-locating uncertainty | 11:28 |
| andytoshi | and it implies answers to all sorts of silly philosophical problems (eg i flip a coin, heads i wake you up twice but wipe your memory the first time, tails i wake up up once, when you wake up what do you except the coin flip to be?) | 11:29 |
| andytoshi | so i wouldn't say "most uninteresting problem ever" | 11:29 |
| maaku | yeah that's why i'm sticking through the video, because of the born probabilities. | 11:30 |
| andytoshi | you're gonna be disappointed, he does like one slide and says "it's technical, see the paper" | 11:30 |
| andytoshi | i haven't read it yet, i have some background reading first.. | 11:30 |
| maaku | oh ok | 11:30 |
| maaku | but i think carroll is confused on self-locating problems. we don't have access to the outside view so it isn't actually a problem | 11:31 |
| maaku | which instance are we? we are the instance that we are, where ever and which ever that one is. it's a non-issue | 11:31 |
| andytoshi | short answer for how born probs appear: for states with equal amplitude, you get a uniform probability for each from this ESP thing; for states with non-equal amplitude, you can consider them as sums of states with equal amplitude and you wind up with the appropriate number of copies of each state that the born probabilities appear | 11:32 |
| andytoshi | well, it's a problem because in repeated experiments you see these probabilistic results which correspond to "random choices by the universe" following the born probabilities | 11:33 |
| andytoshi | and the question you ask is "why do i predict that will happen?" | 11:33 |
| andytoshi | and i think, for each repitition of the experiment you can ask the self-locating problem, and this will predict | 11:33 |
| andytoshi | but i am almost certainly confused, i haven't done enough reading. maybe i'm wrong | 11:34 |
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| dingo | nmz787: i only became a fan of ergonomic keyboards when i developed rheumatoid arthritis | 12:40 |
| dingo | as for "superfast keyboards", i suspect the DataHand (as seen in the movie Contact) might do it | 12:41 |
| dingo | anyway i use a kinesis for several years now, very happy with it, esp. the "thumboard" for ctrl/alt/meta/backspace/delete/return/spacebar | 12:41 |
| dingo | it also supports recording macros and remapping keys in hardware which is nice | 12:41 |
| dingo | my capslock is escape, as a vi user | 12:42 |
| dingo | and sometimes when i got shitty sysadmin jobs with repetitive passwords i would just record them as macros, cause bah, its just a job | 12:42 |
| dingo | i also use the evoluent vertical mouse, a lot of people have success with that for hand pain | 12:42 |
| dingo | but i solved that issue by ensuring my jobs don't include web/gui's and keep me in the terminals | 12:43 |
| dingo | and i'm actually quite happy google code is shutting down, i have project pages now on github, but i can't delete the google code ones because i deleted my google account years and years ago. | 12:45 |
| dingo | and i had to submit a bug report through launchpad the other day, i would have submitted a patch too, but after 15 minutes of trying to figure the shit out, i gave up anyway. and i noticed their version releases and code tree weren't in synch with pypi and i just said fuckit | 12:46 |
| dingo | and i get so frustrated making pull requests on bitbucket, so annoying, such a terrible navigation UI, i can never find what i'm looking for | 12:46 |
| dingo | i'm actually quite happy with a monoculture around github ;p | 12:46 |
| dingo | i've hosted OSS projects for a long time, and its only until github that I started getting random patches/pull requests/bug reports from strangers so fluidly | 12:47 |
| kanzure | i believe JayDugger has a datahand somewhere | 12:48 |
| kanzure | yes launchpad is still incomprehensible | 12:48 |
| dingo | " | 12:54 |
| dingo | Several documentation spelling, grammar, or technical errors were discovered but unreported because the offending project is not on Github. The "drive by" costs of signing up for a mailing list to email a patch or find and/or reset a bitbucket password and learn enough mercurial again just isn't worth it. For example, I found a bug in the stty(1) manpage of FreeBSD regarding imaxcanon: I won't be creating a bugzilla account for a 1-line diff anytime soon." | 12:54 |
| dingo | i wrote this on my bloggie wog | 12:54 |
| kanzure | btw you can email stuff to a mailing list without subscribing. it's up to them to configure their mailing list appropriately (moderation, etc). | 12:56 |
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| kanzure | permabranches in mercurial still confuse me. why would that be the default recommended workflow? submit a fix and even after merging you have to carry that branch around forever? seems a little odd. | 12:58 |
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| nmz787_i | huh, datahand looks pretty cool... seeems like it wouldn't be terrible to reproduce with 3d scanning and printing | 13:05 |
| kanzure | there would have to be a good reason first | 13:06 |
| nmz787_i | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yn-rNdYZAY | 13:07 |
| yoleaux | DarNES - Netflix Hack Day - Winter 2015 - YouTube | 13:07 |
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| paperlooker | WHAT HAPPENED TO PAPERBOT T_T | 13:17 |
| paperlooker | did I miss his funeral? | 13:17 |
| justanotheruser | it looks like he left the channel | 13:17 |
| paperlooker | kanzure: ^ T_T | 13:17 |
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| paperlooker | \o/ | 13:18 |
| paperlooker | paperbot: http://jla.sagepub.com/content/19/6/569.full.pdf+html | 13:18 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1177%2F2211068214543373 | 13:18 |
| paperlooker | paperbot: http://jla.sagepub.com/content/19/6/569.long | 13:19 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1177%2F2211068214543373 | 13:19 |
| paperlooker | 404, damn | 13:20 |
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| nmz787_i | buh bye! | 13:29 |
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| kanzure | " we have no evidence human pheromones even exist — and these studies can all be traced back to a single fragrance company called Erox that managed to convince dozens of scientists their two "pheromones" were worth researching in the first place." | 14:00 |
| kanzure | "In a recent review in Proceedings of the Royal Society B, Oxford biologist Tristram Wyatt tells this strange story, starting with a 1991 paper presented at an Erox-funded conference that identified two molecules the company would later patent (androstadienone and estratetraenol) as "putative human pheromones."" | 14:00 |
| kanzure | welp, what's missing for human pheromones to exist? | 14:05 |
| kanzure | let's just steal an insect pheromone and call our test subject "spiderman" | 14:06 |
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| heath | dingo: kudos, i might one day go back to a desktop and use a keyboard not attached to a monitor | 15:11 |
| dingo | < nmz787_i> huh, datahand looks pretty cool... seeems like it wouldn't be terrible to reproduce with 3d scanning and printing | 15:14 |
| dingo | somebody has indeed started work on that | 15:14 |
| dingo | https://github.com/dodohand/dodohand | 15:15 |
| dingo | https://github.com/Henry/TTHand | 15:15 |
| kanzure | too bad keyboards don't make roaring engine noise, otherwise we might have formula one hedge funds investing in superfast keyboard engineering | 15:16 |
| dingo | I'm pretty satisfied with the kinesis so far. An employer bought it for me so I didn't have to put down much money :) The USB cable connector frayed last year, and I contacted support and they sent me a new connector for just $15. | 15:23 |
| dingo | if it fails permenently I'll buy the pro model for myself | 15:23 |
| dingo | I really need to stop tying so much with my primary fingers.... woops | 15:24 |
| dingo | typing | 15:24 |
| kanzure | yeah i wouldn't mind using fingers four and five more often but that doesn't happen a much as i'd like | 15:24 |
| kanzure | *as much as | 15:24 |
| kanzure | qwerty is laid out in such a way that i don't think you can really get much use out of them | 15:25 |
| kanzure | assigning them to only four or five keys is dumb | 15:25 |
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| dingo | Optimizations is worth it... I went for dvorak as a teenager and it was very frustrating to type slow again, switching to kinesis had the same effect. Fortunately the muscle memory of a kinesis layout doesn't seem to harm my muscle memory on other keyboards like dvorak did... dvorak just fucked me, I could just switch some mental bank rom, it was frustrating to switch | 15:27 |
| dingo | but being able to type as fast as you think/want text on the screen is very helpful, there is a sort of buffer, once that buffer fills, you're losing what you were thinking like a limited FILO queue | 15:28 |
| dingo | I'm pretty comfortable now, anyway, when it comes to writing code, I type as fast as I need to, its 90% revising, editing, debugging, I do just fine "punching out code" at a good pace | 15:29 |
| kanzure | i am totally bored typing long sentences that i planned entire seconds ago, it's a complete waste of my time | 15:30 |
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| orangenarwhals | hello, are people knowledgeable about skdb around | 16:19 |
| eudoxia | kanzure, fenn: ping | 16:20 |
| orangenarwhals | "what is the status" | 16:25 |
| orangenarwhals | "what block(ed) adoption" | 16:25 |
| eudoxia | status is p. much dead | 16:27 |
| eudoxia | what blocked adoption is, well, it was never really finished, or fully specified i think | 16:28 |
| orangenarwhals | are the needs it was addressing still relevant | 16:28 |
| orangenarwhals | (thanks!) | 16:28 |
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| eudoxia | well, the needs it tried to address were: a package manager for open manufacturing | 16:30 |
| eudoxia | that has yet to happen | 16:30 |
| orangenarwhals | i see | 16:31 |
| orangenarwhals | hmm | 16:31 |
| orangenarwhals | okay, that is different then | 16:31 |
| orangenarwhals | i'm attempting to figure out how to ensure open source hardware design tools lead the way instead of catch up | 16:31 |
| orangenarwhals | 1) money: which companies subsidize this with money or engineering team | 16:32 |
| orangenarwhals | ala google and angular.js | 16:32 |
| orangenarwhals | or google summer of code | 16:32 |
| kanzure | hello eudoxia | 16:32 |
| eudoxia | hello kanzure | 16:32 |
| kanzure | orangenarwhals: i think that someone should finish verbnurbs | 16:33 |
| kanzure | there should be surface-surface intersection and then it will be good to go | 16:33 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: not related, but what does your meetlog look like, structurally/schema-wise? | 16:33 |
| orangenarwhals | kanzure: thanks | 16:33 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: schema is pretty bad, it's [{date: {net: [{<name or alias or email address or some combination>: (list of tags) or a dictionary like {tags: list of tags, time: temporal duration, address: stalkdata, emails: stalkdata, etc...}}], phone: [], inperson: [], sms: []}] | 16:36 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: thanks | 16:38 |
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| orangenarwhals | apologies -- my entire computer froze, which hasn't happened before :/ (idk i blame systemd? :P) | 16:43 |
| orangenarwhals | ...was anything directed at me since verbnurbs | 16:43 |
| eudoxia | you can check logs here: http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-03-13.log | 16:44 |
| orangenarwhals | ah -- I forgot, logs | 16:44 |
| orangenarwhals | Thanks. | 16:45 |
| orangenarwhals | Well, I was specifically recommended to check out skdb, but ultimately it appears more concentrated on the manufacturing side than the design tool side. | 16:45 |
| orangenarwhals | What large companies would benefit from open source design tools? | 16:46 |
| kanzure | are you asking "which companies would benefit from cad software"? | 16:46 |
| orangenarwhals | essentially | 16:46 |
| orangenarwhals | people tend to think CAD = solidmodel/meche and EDA = ee, though | 16:47 |
| orangenarwhals | people are very excited about onshape and there's an explosion of solidmodel tools right now | 16:48 |
| orangenarwhals | *open source | 16:48 |
| orangenarwhals | openSCAD, freeCAD, verbnurb, i could go on | 16:48 |
| kanzure | openscad sucks | 16:49 |
| kanzure | freecad sucks because opencascade is an unmaintainable pile of shit | 16:49 |
| orangenarwhals | Precisely. Everything sucks right now. | 16:49 |
| kanzure | verbnurbs' primary downside is that it does not have surface-surface intersection and that it is in javascript, but is otherwise wonderful | 16:49 |
| kanzure | also he may have implemented surface-surface intersection since i last looked | 16:50 |
| orangenarwhals | mmm | 16:50 |
| kanzure | ? | 16:50 |
| orangenarwhals | FreeCAD = solidworks 2000 | 16:50 |
| kanzure | no | 16:50 |
| orangenarwhals | openSCAD = functional programming for CAD | 16:50 |
| kanzure | opencascade is not as stable as solidworks 2000, you are lying to me and i hate you | 16:50 |
| orangenarwhals | uh... okay. | 16:50 |
| kanzure | argh | 16:50 |
| orangenarwhals | I'm merely thinking out loud. | 16:50 |
| kanzure | you are wrong though | 16:50 |
| orangenarwhals | Solvespace = windows only | 16:51 |
| kanzure | btw here are my notes about opencascade http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/opencascade | 16:51 |
| kanzure | solidworks 2000 was using parasolid at the time anyway (i think solidworks still does anyway?) | 16:51 |
| orangenarwhals | Solidworks = limited to single core, slow | 16:51 |
| orangenarwhals | My friend opined that "saying you built something faster than solidworks is like saying a car is faster than a camel," which I think is something open source software could address | 16:53 |
| orangenarwhals | open file formats are another key issue | 16:53 |
| orangenarwhals | version control of text-based file formats | 16:53 |
| orangenarwhals | Thanks -- I will forward CASCADE to my "solidworks is slow for these engineering reasons" friend | 16:54 |
| kanzure | no, don't forward opencascade | 16:54 |
| orangenarwhals | *opencascade | 16:54 |
| kanzure | you're totally missing my point | 16:54 |
| orangenarwhals | which is? | 16:54 |
| kanzure | that it fucking sucks | 16:54 |
| kanzure | freecad uses opencascade. that's how it works. | 16:54 |
| kanzure | and that is why freecad has been unable to become not buggy | 16:54 |
| kanzure | opencascade is like 5 million lines of poorly written code | 16:55 |
| kanzure | written in french, russian and english. at the same time. | 16:55 |
| kanzure | all of their variable names are like aMPBLPB | 16:55 |
| orangenarwhals | Hmm. What funded opencascade development? | 16:55 |
| kanzure | matra datavision, a french military contractor in the 80s | 16:55 |
| orangenarwhals | It sounds like there was commercial | 16:55 |
| orangenarwhals | ah | 16:55 |
| kanzure | opennurbs would be good if they distributed testcases and the intersection algorithms, but brlcad has lately reimplemented some of those (i have a partial reimplementation in python but i stopped when i found verbnurbs) | 16:56 |
| orangenarwhals | Let's say I want to do my entire derpy maker project using open design tools. What would this ideally entail? | 16:59 |
| orangenarwhals | For instance, right now, my alternative is | 17:00 |
| orangenarwhals | Solidworks/Inventor/OnShape (DXF for lasercutter, STL for printing, SLDWRK for machining) + DipTrace/Eagle/Altium (gerber) | 17:01 |
| orangenarwhals | everything managed through dropbox. | 17:01 |
| orangenarwhals | or github. | 17:01 |
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| orangenarwhals | The state of the art in open source CAD right now, I imagine, is something like | 17:02 |
| orangenarwhals | actually, I have no idea. | 17:02 |
| orangenarwhals | Wings3D or SpaceSolver or FreeCAD -> SVG for lasercutter, STL for printing, ?? for machining. | 17:03 |
| orangenarwhals | KiCAD for gerbers. | 17:03 |
| orangenarwhals | Would ideally these tools be able to talk to each other | 17:03 |
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| orangenarwhals | Nah, okay, my instinct is someone has spent a lot of time trying to make these file formats already | 17:06 |
| orangenarwhals | so the issue is not the format but the intermediary translation toolset | 17:06 |
| kanzure | i don't understand why you would have to use dropbox, that's the stupidest requirement ever. how about just "store files wherever i want"? | 17:06 |
| orangenarwhals | For collaboration. | 17:06 |
| kanzure | you are surprisingly infuriating | 17:06 |
| orangenarwhals | haha | 17:06 |
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| orangenarwhals | I'd take that as a compliment from my friends, generally they think I'm surprisingly agreeable | 17:07 |
| kanzure | as for translation formats you could always use http://stepcode.org/ (i think their site may be down; their git repo is available on github, and brlcad vendorizes their library anyway) | 17:07 |
| kanzure | for some reason you keep recommending freecad even after i told you it's unmaintainable | 17:08 |
| kanzure | how does that not make you completely evil | 17:08 |
| kanzure | are you a programmer? | 17:08 |
| orangenarwhals | hmm, well I make my living right now writing code | 17:08 |
| orangenarwhals | I tend to think I'm an engineer. | 17:08 |
| kanzure | have you read opencascade source code? | 17:09 |
| orangenarwhals | Not at all! | 17:09 |
| orangenarwhals | I'm merely observing that from the end user perspective | 17:09 |
| kanzure | you should perhaps do that before committing to maintaining projects, or asking me to maintain those projects >:( | 17:09 |
| orangenarwhals | FreeCAD is probably the most acceptable thing so far. | 17:09 |
| kanzure | screw end users, give me something that works for myself, and then i'll consider adding sugar for others later | 17:09 |
| orangenarwhals | what? | 17:09 |
| kanzure | freecad is completely unacceptable | 17:09 |
| orangenarwhals | I'm not asking you to do anything... | 17:09 |
| kanzure | it crashes all the time and even basic operations like extrusion totally fails | 17:09 |
| orangenarwhals | I'm merely trying to make sure I am mapping the state of the art correctly | 17:10 |
| kanzure | the other day i sent them a bug report about circles inside of squares not working for values < 0.47 (doesn't matter what units) | 17:10 |
| kanzure | and they had to shrug because opencascade is terrible | 17:10 |
| kanzure | how is that a good user experience? you are crazy | 17:10 |
| kanzure | argh | 17:10 |
| kanzure | well i am a user, and you shouldn't ignore my concerns | 17:10 |
| orangenarwhals | Err, I agree it's terrible | 17:10 |
| kanzure | just because i am a developer does not mean that you get to inflict terrible solutions on me | 17:10 |
| orangenarwhals | I agree the state of the art is terrible... | 17:10 |
| kanzure | opencascade is pretty much not good | 17:10 |
| kanzure | okay maybe by "most acceptable" you meant "not" | 17:11 |
| orangenarwhals | hold on, let me switch to a real interface, this browser irc client seems to not have auto-last message | 17:11 |
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| nrw_ | test | 17:12 |
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| nrw_ | okay, more acceptable | 17:12 |
| nrw_ | oh, huh, george church was my PI's PI | 17:12 |
| nrw_ | lol | 17:12 |
| nrw_ | anyway | 17:12 |
| nrw_ | It seems to me like one major expertise hole right now is usability and UI design | 17:13 |
| kanzure | hardly | 17:13 |
| kanzure | there's nothing to make a ui around | 17:13 |
| kanzure | that can't possibly be true | 17:13 |
| nrw_ | (on top of the engine issues, aka opencascade) | 17:13 |
| nrw_ | The other issue is money and a more unified vision, as well as spec'ing of the exact feature-set we should be aiming toward | 17:14 |
| nrw_ | Maybe we could get one of the manufacutring equipment companies to sponsor us, not sure | 17:15 |
| kanzure | i have tried to find osmeone to pay to implement nurbs kernels but i haven't found anyone yet | 17:15 |
| kanzure | largely because i would have to tell them how to do it, and i have already spent too much time on busted implementations | 17:16 |
| kanzure | money is not the problem | 17:16 |
| nrw_ | for instance, money is being dumped by companies into hackathons right now so they can eventually hire talent | 17:16 |
| nrw_ | haha | 17:16 |
| nrw_ | well that's good to hear | 17:16 |
| kanzure | no that's bad to hear | 17:16 |
| kanzure | money is easy to buy | 17:16 |
| kanzure | money is the easiest thing to buy | 17:16 |
| nrw_ | time and expertise are the issues then? | 17:16 |
| nrw_ | in your opinion | 17:16 |
| kanzure | by comparison finding someone you can pay to implement an actual nurbs kernel is difficult | 17:16 |
| kanzure | (who you do not have to instruct) | 17:17 |
| nrw_ | why is that? | 17:17 |
| nrw_ | ah, I see | 17:17 |
| kanzure | because there's no straightforward implementation | 17:17 |
| kanzure | that's why i like verbnurbs, i don't have to tell that guy how to do his job | 17:17 |
| kanzure | here are some papers on implementation details http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/cad/ | 17:17 |
| nrw_ | hmm okay verbnurbs seems to resolve your issue with openSCAD | 17:17 |
| nrw_ | sorr | 17:17 |
| nrw_ | opencascade | 17:17 |
| nrw_ | after that what is the issue | 17:17 |
| kanzure | pretty much the only peopel who have written working nurbs kernels in the past are just phd people who spend 2-3 years on the problem, ugh | 17:18 |
| nrw_ | (the ugh is because they stop maintaining and it rots?) | 17:18 |
| kanzure | that's the only problem in my opinion. nobody truly cares about ui (the existence of autolisp and openscad and cadquery show this) | 17:18 |
| kanzure | no te ugh is because i don't know any of those people | 17:18 |
| kanzure | *the | 17:18 |
| kanzure | and i haven't been able to find them | 17:18 |
| kanzure | they are all dead | 17:18 |
| nrw_ | wat | 17:19 |
| kanzure | well people die | 17:19 |
| kanzure | that happens | 17:19 |
| kanzure | ROMULUS was made in the 70s dude | 17:19 |
| nrw_ | Haha, well, that's interesting | 17:19 |
| nrw_ | "no one cares about UI" is an ... interesting stance | 17:19 |
| kanzure | ui is not a serious problem here | 17:19 |
| kanzure | the reason why no ui exists is because there's nothing to do with a potential ui anyway | 17:20 |
| kanzure | it has nothing to do with cad problems | 17:20 |
| nrw_ | Okay. What are the design issues with CAD right now? | 17:20 |
| kanzure | no open source nurbs kernel that works and is maintainable and has public unit tests | 17:20 |
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| kanzure | with the possible exception of brlcad's bastardized version of opennurbs, and the partially-existing implementation in verbnurbs, of course | 17:21 |
| kanzure | both brlcad's bastardization of opennurbs, and verbnurbs, are relatively recent developments (i mean.. they both happened more than 1 year ago at this point, but that counts as recent) | 17:21 |
| kanzure | the other thing about verbnurbs is that it would mean i have to commit myself to a lifetime of javascript and i don't know if i am willing to write that much js | 17:22 |
| kanzure | again that's why i wrote a python reimplementation of verbnurbs | 17:22 |
| kanzure | oh wait, i mean python reimplementation of opennurbs | 17:22 |
| kanzure | so i may have to do the same for verbnurbs :\ | 17:23 |
| kanzure | (my reimplementation of opennurbs is called lolcad) | 17:23 |
| nrw_ | I see | 17:23 |
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| nrw_ | What is the relationship of newtonian solvers to nurbs? If you don't mind my asking | 17:24 |
| kanzure | nurbs is what parasolid and acis use (solidworks, autocad, catia, pro/engineer, anything remotely respectalbe) | 17:26 |
| kanzure | (opencascade also happens to be an implementation of a nurbs kernel) | 17:26 |
| kanzure | looks like you are referring to an approximation method | 17:27 |
| kanzure | of some kind... | 17:27 |
| kanzure | you can represent perfect spheres with a few bytes of nurbs data | 17:27 |
| nrw_ | Ah, I found the quote. " the main interesting thing about Solvespace is the constraint solver, which uses n-dimensional newton iteration and should be able to scale to very large models and very large computers if it is written properly. " | 17:29 |
| kanzure | parametric constraint solving is another chunk of the problem but i don't think that it should be the priority | 17:29 |
| kanzure | you can use gecode or opencascade's implementation | 17:30 |
| kanzure | there's a youtube video floating around that demonstrates python + opencascade + pythonocc + sympy + constraint solving | 17:30 |
| kanzure | for parametric modeling from a python prompt | 17:30 |
| kanzure | you have become much less infuriating | 17:31 |
| nrw_ | Well, it's good to know you have strong opinions about the space | 17:32 |
| kanzure | informed opinions | 17:32 |
| nrw_ | Do you have contact info for pboyer, the maintener of verbnurbs? | 17:34 |
| nrw_ | I desire to ask him what would speed up progress on verbnurbs | 17:34 |
| kanzure | peter.b.boyer@gmail.com | 17:34 |
| kanzure | i believe he presently works at autodesk | 17:34 |
| kanzure | so getting him fired might help | 17:34 |
| nrw_ | Haha, well, that's interesting | 17:35 |
| nrw_ | Why has autodesk not prohibited him from working on this? | 17:35 |
| kanzure | how is he supposed to get any work done if he's spending all day at autodesk? :| | 17:35 |
| kanzure | well, as far as i know autodesk does not actually implement their cad engine on their own | 17:36 |
| kanzure | they are using a licensed engine called ACIS | 17:36 |
| kanzure | and their contract is probably nowhere near specific enough like "none of your employees will ever write a nurbs kernel ever" | 17:36 |
| kanzure | for some reason i thought they moved ACIS in-house at one point... did that happen.. let me check. | 17:37 |
| kanzure | oh interesting "Autodesk AutoCAD 360 is the official AutoCAD mobile app for Android.[22]" | 17:37 |
| kanzure | i should reverse engineer that | 17:37 |
| kanzure | yeah nevermind, they seem to still be using ACIS | 17:38 |
| kanzure | maybe it was solidworks/parasolid (parasolid is owned and licensed by siemens) | 17:38 |
| nrw_ | http://www.123dapp.com/ | 17:41 |
| kanzure | no | 17:41 |
| nrw_ | http://www.circuitmaker.com/#why_circuitmaker | 17:41 |
| nrw_ | anyway, mobile aside | 17:41 |
| kanzure | no the reason why i should reverse engineer the android autodesk app is because they probably ported ACIS to dalvik maybe.. or they are distributing a shared library. | 17:41 |
| kanzure | and a different platform release is helpful for reverse engineering because you can compare the bytes to their default release | 17:42 |
| nrw_ | Ah, apologies, I misunderstood. | 17:42 |
| kanzure | and out falls more useful implementation details | 17:42 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: i think making a better schema than what i've been using would be very simple | 17:43 |
| eudoxia | like instead of mapping dates to categories and lists of interactions, map people with categories of their interactions? | 17:44 |
| kanzure | nah even more basic, like maybe one file per person | 17:44 |
| eudoxia | hm | 17:45 |
| kanzure | or one file per day that gets processed and dumped into separate files | 17:45 |
| kanzure | or a command line interface where i'm not manually editing yaml files for non-automatic data entry | 17:45 |
| kanzure | and also, why should i be tagging conversations anyway? | 17:45 |
| kanzure | and why should i only have one conversation per person per day? none of this makes sense | 17:46 |
| kanzure | "In case anyone is interested we've been able to do this for quite some time for TEM and SEM. One big breakthrough for EM lately was the ability to use direct detectors to look at frozen samples for tomography. With these techniques we can now reconstruct things like ribosomes all the way down to their atomic structure [1]. We used to have to use crystallography for this. [1] http://elifesciences.org/content/2/e00461 " | 17:47 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://elifesciences.org/content/2/e00461 | 17:47 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.info/scimag/get.php?doi=10.7554%2FeLife.00461 | 17:47 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://elifesciences.org/content/elife/2/e00461.full.pdf | 17:47 |
| kanzure | hmph | 17:48 |
| kanzure | "Ribosome structures to near-atomic resolution from thirty thousand cryo-EM particles" | 17:48 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/15b2b29992703c1485239b9772bc1396.pdf | 17:49 |
| kanzure | hooray | 17:49 |
| kanzure | "Although electron cryo-microscopy (cryo-EM) single-particle analysis has become an important tool for structural biology of large and flexible macro-molecular assemblies, the technique has not yet reached its full potential. Besides fundamental limits imposed by radiation damage, poor detectors and beam-induced sample movement have been shown to degrade attainable resolutions. A new generation of direct electron detectors may ameliorate ... | 17:49 |
| kanzure | ... both effects. Apart from exhibiting improved signal-to-noise performance, these cameras are also fast enough to follow particle movements during electron irradiation. Here, we assess the potentials of this technology for cryo-EM structure determination. Using a newly developed statistical movie processing approach to compensate for beam-induced movement, we show that ribosome reconstructions with unprecedented resolutions may be ... | 17:49 |
| kanzure | ... calculated from almost two orders of magnitude fewer particles than used previously. Therefore, this methodology may expand the scope of high-resolution cryo-EM to a broad range of biological specimens." | 17:49 |
| fenn | ugh so much backlog today | 17:52 |
| kanzure | "A novel procedure for video-frame alignment was developed that exploits the relatively high accuracy of aligning 16-frame average particles (Figure 2B), as well as the prior knowledge that particles are unlikely to undergo very large rotations or translations during the 1-s exposure. To this purpose, we defined Gaussian prior distributions on the rotations and translations of the video frames, and centered these distributions at the ... | 17:52 |
| kanzure | ... observed orientations for alignments with the corresponding 16-frame average particles." | 17:52 |
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| nrw_ | Alright, I emailed pboyer. | 17:55 |
| kanzure | "yo dawg, what's up, you should quit and i will pay you to do more stuff, kthx, your friend in time, dogejones" | 17:56 |
| nrw_ | nah | 17:56 |
| nrw_ | I left it more general than that :) | 17:56 |
| kanzure | "sup" | 17:56 |
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| nrw_ | Something like that | 17:56 |
| nrw_ | Alright, so back to the topic at hand | 17:56 |
| nrw_ | "a common, powerful, and extensible intermediate representation of | 17:57 |
| nrw_ | designs. " | 17:57 |
| kanzure | atomically precise scans of ribosomal subunits? | 17:57 |
| nrw_ | nah | 17:57 |
| nrw_ | sorry, that's you all's topic | 17:57 |
| kanzure | why does it have to be an intermediate representation | 17:57 |
| kanzure | why can't it just be a regular representation | 17:57 |
| nrw_ | Hmm, that's what I'm seeking expertise to evaluate | 17:57 |
| kanzure | argh | 17:58 |
| nrw_ | Should a papercraf modeler be able to talk to kiCAD and etc. | 17:58 |
| nrw_ | ? | 17:58 |
| nrw_ | *papercraft | 17:58 |
| kanzure | "shoud interprocess communication continue to be a supported feature" ?? | 17:58 |
| nrw_ | wut | 17:58 |
| nrw_ | sorry, I apologize. | 17:59 |
| nrw_ | papercraft to FreeCAD / whatever | 17:59 |
| nrw_ | solidmodels, not EFDA | 17:59 |
| nrw_ | *EDA | 17:59 |
| nrw_ | hmm | 18:02 |
| nrw_ | Okay, well I think that's about as much as I have to think out loud today. | 18:02 |
| kanzure | read these http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/cad/ | 18:02 |
| kanzure | read opencascade source code | 18:02 |
| nrw_ | mm, I'm more trying to tease out whether there are design issues impeding the development of Gold Standard open source design tools | 18:04 |
| nrw_ | LLVM, gcc, these are industry standard now. | 18:05 |
| nrw_ | What is the impediment to a similar proliferation of open source design tools that commercial companies adopt and support and contribute money, development, and expertise to? | 18:05 |
| nrw_ | *hardward, CAD, etc. | 18:05 |
| nrw_ | whatever you want to call it | 18:06 |
| nrw_ | It's a little bit of a chicken and egg game, but it'd be helpful to know if there are key design choice issues. | 18:06 |
| nrw_ | chicken and egg = excited end users vs usable interface | 18:06 |
| nrw_ | Anyway, I'll probably reappear in a week after reading me some nurbs and poking other people | 18:07 |
| nrw_ | Thanks! | 18:07 |
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| kanzure | my custom keyboard should be called typomaster9000 | 18:53 |
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| kanzure | hmm | 19:46 |
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| kanzure | "removing small meaningless terms from an equation" is a neat trick | 20:52 |
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| JayDugger | Good evening. | 21:19 |
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| nmz787 | "For both the 70S and 80S samples, aliquots of 3 μl at a concentration of ∼80 nM were incubated for 30 s on glow-discharged holey carbon grids (Quantifoil R2/2), on which a home-made continuous carbon film (estimated to be ∼30-Å thick) had previously been deposited. Grids were blotted for 2.5 s and plunge-frozen in liquid ethane using an FEI Vitrobot. Grids were transferred to an FEI Polara G2 microscope that was operated at 300 kV. A ... | 21:48 |
| nmz787 | ... C2 aperture of 70 μm and an objective aperture of 100 μm were used. Defocus was varied from 1.3 to 3.8 μm. Using an extraction voltage of 3900 V, a gun lens setting of 2 and a spotsize of 4 or 5, an estimated dose of 16 electrons/Å2 was applied during 1-s exposures. The beam used was larger than the Quantifoil hole, illuminating the carbon all around the hole. Images were recorded at the approximate center of the hole on a ... | 21:49 |
| nmz787 | ... back-thinned FEI Falcon detector at a calibrated magnification of 79,096 (yielding a pixel size of 1.77 Å)." | 21:49 |
| * nmz787 is pretty sure all that equipment is relatively accessible within 5 to 25 minutes from me | 21:49 | |
| nmz787 | .tell nrw_ definitely use BRLCAD, stop looking into other open CAD tools, aside from the EDA stuff... but honestly I've been thinking I might end up doing EDA in BRL-CAD anyway, since I want to do MEMS designs (which have 3D geometry, electric wiring, spaces that fluids will flow through that I want to do physical simulations on). | 21:52 |
| yoleaux | nmz787: I'll pass your message to nrw_. | 21:52 |
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| delinquentme | when a metric is picked as just some way to show off | 22:22 |
| delinquentme | its a glamor metric? | 22:22 |
| delinquentme | its a X metric. | 22:22 |
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| --- Log closed Sat Mar 14 00:00:21 2015 | ||
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