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| juul | sheena: i think you should default assume that all public channels are logged and searchable | 01:47 |
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| wrldpc | What happened to Austen Heinz? Has that been revealed? | 04:39 |
| wrldpc | with all due respect. | 04:39 |
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| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 06:50 |
| kanzure | indeed | 06:51 |
| eudoxia | it is rather a good morning | 06:52 |
| archels | that is an oxymoron | 06:52 |
| kanzure | if i had to send someone 100 million years into the future, who the hell should it be | 06:53 |
| JayDugger | ooh! I have plenty of candidates. Just promise me you'll aim for hard vacuum. | 06:55 |
| archels | make sure you send them to an evening, maybe late afternoon | 06:55 |
| archels | unless you hate them really hard, which I guess is implied here | 06:55 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: that depends on whether or not they can carry something to record what they find | 06:56 |
| JayDugger | Oh, yes. Plenty of empty space between the ears. | 06:58 |
| JayDugger | None of them have learned to remember to check their watch when they encounter a fault, but I haven't tried electric shocks yet. Get the release forms in order, and you're probably set. | 06:59 |
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| kanzure | all of those answers are awful | 07:14 |
| kanzure | i need a specific person | 07:14 |
| JayDugger | You ask as if you can do it. What did you expect? | 07:21 |
| kanzure | i am reasonably confident | 07:21 |
| JayDugger | At a rate of more than 1 year traveled per year experienced? | 07:22 |
| kanzure | no :-) | 07:22 |
| JayDugger | Well, work on that, and I'll volunteer for the second trip. | 07:22 |
| kanzure | perhaps i'll just send someone forward far enough to find a backwards time machine | 07:23 |
| JayDugger | First thing you should do with a time machine? Find a better one. | 07:23 |
| JayDugger | Second thing you should do with a time machine? Destroy all the other time machines. | 07:23 |
| kanzure | you also have to fix all the causality faults | 07:24 |
| JayDugger | Nah, that's a myth. You can spend your time traveling keeping history on track through the rivers of tears of oceans of blood, sure. Plenty do that. | 07:25 |
| JayDugger | It's much more interesting in principle to fork history into what ever you please. I imagine that seductive idea provides the cobblestones for a lot of well-paved roads to various private hells. | 07:26 |
| kanzure | perhaps it will be an essay contest, k-pax style | 07:31 |
| kanzure | "i should get to go to the future because ...." | 07:31 |
| JayDugger | "...conquering the world will be much easier with firearms. Yrs., Alexander of Macedonia." | 07:32 |
| JayDugger | Why not open up the contest to everyone everywhen? | 07:32 |
| kanzure | what? | 07:33 |
| JayDugger | If you've got a time machine for a prize, why not open up the contest to people in your past? | 07:33 |
| JayDugger | Unless it's a one-way box. | 07:34 |
| kanzure | uh because i don't know how to go backwards | 07:34 |
| kanzure | it's one-way. | 07:34 |
| JayDugger | Oh, never mind. | 07:34 |
| eudoxia | why 100 million years? why not closer to the heat death? at that point whatever you send is likely to get picked up as people will be hoovering up any bits of energy they can find | 07:35 |
| juul | I can has upvote? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9665633 | 07:36 |
| chris_99 | upboated | 07:37 |
| kanzure | juul: sending people directly to your post to upvote is something that triggers the spam filterz apparently | 07:37 |
| chris_99 | oh yeah | 07:37 |
| chris_99 | darn | 07:37 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: heat death is less useful in my opinion, what are you going to do, float around as a pile of leptrons? | 07:37 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: i said closer, just when posthumans are starting to hunker down in bunkers of protons for the long night | 07:38 |
| eudoxia | but not when all protons have decayed | 07:39 |
| kanzure | i think it would be interesting to set the chronometer for sometime when the earth still exists | 07:39 |
| juul | ach | 07:39 |
| kanzure | also the mechanism of travel requires a facility a few kilometers under the bottom of the ocean | 07:42 |
| JayDugger | Two FIXMEs before I volunteer for the second Janus mission. | 07:47 |
| JayDugger | 1) faster rate, 2) secret underground base underwater | 07:47 |
| kanzure | can't do #1 | 07:47 |
| kanzure | although the subjective time should be zero, does that count? | 07:48 |
| JayDugger | Fine, so long as it doesn't involve some inconvenient dodge, like being not-alive. | 07:49 |
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| kanzure | lexical fitness testing http://faculty.hampshire.edu/lspector/pubs/virtual_witches_and_warlocks.pdf | 09:04 |
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| kanzure | plos visits counterculture labs http://blogs.plos.org/citizensci/2015/06/05/coops-scoop-do-it-yourself-together/ | 10:15 |
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| kanzure | .wik senolytics | 10:36 |
| yoleaux | "Senolytics are drugs that selectively induce death of senescent cells. Senescent cells are those that have stopped dividing. They accumulate in aging bodies and accelerate the aging process. Eliminating senescent cells increases the amount of time that mice are free of disease ("healthspan")." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senolytics | 10:36 |
| @fenn | quercetin? | 10:39 |
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| kanzure | the problem with the "just get a data center of neural tissue cultures" approach is that the interface between remote regions of the brain is not merely electrical. and that sensing all the other factors is difficult and problematic to transfer over electrical-only interfaces to separate petri dishes. | 11:04 |
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| @fenn | are you talking about calcium fluctuations? | 11:10 |
| kanzure | neurotransmitters and everything else | 11:11 |
| kanzure | other proteins and transcripts | 11:11 |
| @fenn | but... who cares | 11:11 |
| kanzure | may be pivotal to its function tho? | 11:12 |
| @fenn | my original idea was to literally have a tube sticking out of your head that connects to another brain (or brain-pod) | 11:12 |
| kanzure | patch clamp experiments have shown neural networks to restructure in the presence of only electrical stimulation so perhaps you're right | 11:12 |
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| @fenn | but packet switched networks are super awesome and many orders of magnitude faster | 11:13 |
| kanzure | you're just trading squishy problems for iptable problems :P | 11:14 |
| @fenn | that's a deal i'd take any day | 11:14 |
| @fenn | it might even be worth it to just add an internal optical network to the brain, to link up far-flung regions more effectively | 11:16 |
| @fenn | like the plan for silicon chips to use optical interconnects | 11:17 |
| kanzure | i wonder what the brain would route through that | 11:17 |
| @fenn | oh the usual murmur | 11:17 |
| @fenn | the interface would be optogenetically enhanced neurons right? so it would be whatever is going through the specific neurons that are linked to the optical network | 11:18 |
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| kanzure | yes but the brain can restructure to some extent | 11:18 |
| @fenn | ba | 11:18 |
| kanzure | so through whatever learning it experiences the actual traffic might be different from whatever region you thought you originally wired up (but this isn't a /problem/) | 11:18 |
| @fenn | yes that's the whole point | 11:19 |
| @fenn | i don't really want to think about potato salad every time i see the color blue | 11:19 |
| kanzure | i don't believe you need optogenetics for that, only the interconnect needs to be optimal (actually, not even) | 11:19 |
| kanzure | *optical | 11:19 |
| kanzure | i believe a single wire can be faster than traveling through brain matter | 11:20 |
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| kanzure | even with delays related to electrical stimulation and electrical signal detection on both ends | 11:20 |
| @fenn | of course, that's the whole point | 11:20 |
| @fenn | it's like gaining an extra dimension | 11:20 |
| @fenn | 3d chips vs 2d chips | 11:21 |
| kanzure | (the wire doesn't need to be optical fiber) | 11:21 |
| @fenn | anyway i think optogenetics is less harmful to the brain tissue | 11:21 |
| kanzure | ah | 11:21 |
| @fenn | and it's more selective | 11:21 |
| kanzure | todo: selective breeding of neurons and other brain cells that can withstand being wired up to electrodes forever | 11:22 |
| @fenn | also you could do some optical equivalent of "just a wire" where one cell emits photons and the photons travel down the fiber and stimulate another cell that is sensitive to that wavelength | 11:22 |
| kanzure | sounds like they would need to be very very optically sensitive | 11:23 |
| @fenn | sure well it's dark so why not | 11:23 |
| @fenn | it just needs to have a reasonably good signal to noise ratio | 11:24 |
| kanzure | hehe we could just attach photoreceptors to synapses :-) | 11:24 |
| @fenn | the thing i dont like about "just a wire" is that it's basically hard-coded and can't restructure | 11:25 |
| @fenn | but we don't really know the best way to hook everything together (or if it is even beneficial in the first place0 | 11:25 |
| kanzure | and you're worried that just a wire wouldn't be sufficient to see any sort of benefits? | 11:25 |
| @fenn | well it's extremely unlikely that you'd guess the best possible configuration on the first try through sheer luck | 11:26 |
| kanzure | perhaps interconnects are so advantageous that anything at all of that nature would confer obvious improvements..? | 11:26 |
| kanzure | </hoping> yeah ok | 11:26 |
| @fenn | also it would be beneficial to be able to change the wiring in order to get a different perspective or for different situations | 11:27 |
| FourFire | topic: Brain-brain / Brain-Computer direct interfaces? | 11:27 |
| kanzure | topic: neural phototransception | 11:27 |
| kanzure | fenn is proposing an army of optical telepathic gorillas | 11:27 |
| @fenn | er, something like that | 11:28 |
| @fenn | mumble mumble cyberbrain information superhighway raaah | 11:28 |
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| FourFire | fenn, and a million typewriters? | 11:29 |
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| @fenn | fenn> add an internal optical network to the brain, to link up far-flung regions | 11:29 |
| @fenn | far flung regions of the brai | 11:30 |
| @fenn | n | 11:30 |
| kanzure | how many wavelengths does the current optogenetics toolbox have anyway? | 11:31 |
| @fenn | probably not more than 4 | 11:31 |
| @fenn | blue stuff tends to be phototoxic too | 11:31 |
| @fenn | .wik neuromelanin | 11:32 |
| yoleaux | "Neuromelanin (NM) is a dark pigment found in the brain which is structurally related to melanin. It is a polymer of 5,6-dihydroxyindole monomers. Neuromelanin is expressed in large quantities in dopaminergic cells of the substantia nigra, giving dark color to the structure." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuromelanin | 11:32 |
| kanzure | i would expect more wavelengths to be more useful | 11:32 |
| @fenn | of course | 11:33 |
| kanzure | especially if the response curves are specific | 11:33 |
| @fenn | it rapidly gets unfeasible when the wavelength is longer than cell body diameter | 11:33 |
| kanzure | obviously what the neurons need is giant antennae proteins so they can pick up satellite communications | 11:34 |
| @fenn | huh, "White people have lower amounts of neuromelanin. This is why Parkinson's disease and degenerative brain disorders such as dementia are more common among white-skinned populations." | 11:34 |
| @fenn | okazaki bacteria | 11:34 |
| @fenn | nevermind | 11:35 |
| @fenn | anyway "more frequencies" is not scalable | 11:37 |
| kanzure | neuromelanin should go on the wiki | 11:37 |
| @fenn | why | 11:38 |
| kanzure | lower propensity for dementia sounds like an okay thing to me | 11:38 |
| @fenn | meh.. there are too many potential disease-proofing modifications to keep track of | 11:38 |
| kanzure | for http://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications/ | 11:38 |
| @fenn | aw you copypasted this page to death | 11:39 |
| @fenn | now it's just a bunch of random gene names | 11:39 |
| kanzure | you mean the working memory section? | 11:40 |
| @fenn | ok nevermind these actually make sense | 11:41 |
| @fenn | i guess any list of potential genetic improvements is going to be ginormous | 11:42 |
| kanzure | eventually this will need to include information about whether it's speculative or demonstrated or whatever else | 11:43 |
| kanzure | i'm pretty happy that we've found such a direct way of improving working memory | 11:45 |
| kanzure | like.... put that into a virus, let's role. | 11:45 |
| kanzure | like.... put that into a virus, let's roll. | 11:45 |
| @fenn | which one? | 11:46 |
| kanzure | rs1800497 and/or rs2283265 | 11:46 |
| @fenn | .title http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165032714000305 | 11:47 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page. | 11:48 |
| @fenn | "DRD2 rs1800497 polymorphism increase the risk of mood disorder: Evidence from an update meta-analysis" | 11:48 |
| @fenn | DRD2 is the dopamine receptor for positive reward? | 11:49 |
| @fenn | so does this mutation increase the reward signal or decrease it? | 11:49 |
| @fenn | "Some researchers have previously associated the polymorphism Taq 1A (rs1800497) to the DRD2 gene. However, the polymorphism resides in exon 8 of the ANKK1 gene.[9] DRD2 TaqIA polymorphism has been reported to be associated with an increased risk for developing motor fluctuations in Parkinson's disease." | 11:50 |
| @fenn | "a single nucleotide polymorphism that causes an amino acid substitution within the 11th of 12 ankyrin repeats of ANKK1 (Glu713Lys of 765 residues). This polymorphism, which is commonly referred to Taq1A, was previously believed to be located in the promoter region of the DRD2 gene, since the polymorphism is proximal to the DRD2 gene and can influence DRD2 receptor expression.[1] It is now known | 11:51 |
| @fenn | to be located in the coding region of the ANKK1 gene which controls the synthesis of dopamine in the brain.[2] The A1 allele is associated with increased activity of striatal L-amino acid decarboxylase." | 11:51 |
| @fenn | so, in plain english, this mutation increases the synthesis of dopamine in the brain | 11:52 |
| @fenn | this whole page is worth reading actually https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANKK1 | 11:54 |
| @fenn | so were you trying to give people the Taq1A+ or Taq1A- version of the gene? | 11:59 |
| @fenn | the Soderquist paper was not about the rs1800497 improving working memory directly, but rather that children with the mutation were "trained" better to perform other working memory tasks (like the dual n-back brain-exercise regiment) | 12:04 |
| @fenn | er, i mean they got more benefit from "brain exercise" supposedly | 12:04 |
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| kanzure | yes and? that sounds okay to me. | 12:12 |
| kanzure | also the paper mentions that others observed higher competence in those children or something after training, compared to the other group | 12:13 |
| kanzure | (although not as an experimental result, clearly) | 12:14 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/working-memory/Polymorphisms%20in%20the%20dopamine%20receptor%202%20gene%20region%20influence%20improvements%20during%20working%20memory%20training%20in%20children%20and%20adolescents.pdf | 12:14 |
| kanzure | oh nevermind. it was part of it. | 12:14 |
| kanzure | and it was not about observers i guess | 12:15 |
| @fenn | no it was self-perceived competence | 12:16 |
| @fenn | and it's a super noisy graph anyway | 12:17 |
| kanzure | what do you want, the secret of life on a silver platter? | 12:18 |
| @fenn | did you read the ANKK1 page? sounds like a real clusterfuck to me. i'm not sure it would be good to make everyone a narcissistic histrionic borderline nutcase | 12:18 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ | 12:18 | |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-oo fenn kanzure] by kanzure | 12:18 | |
| kanzure | the preceding deopping was because i misinterpreted what someone else was saying | 12:20 |
| kanzure | was demonstrating chanserv operation. but nevermind. | 12:21 |
| fenn | A1+ allele: Hepatitis C infection, Antisocial personality disorder, Borderline personality traits, Dissocial personality disorder, Schizoid/avoidant behavior ... possibly reward deficiency syndrome and addictive behaviors | 12:21 |
| kanzure | yes it's not surprising that there may not be a single variable for this trait | 12:21 |
| kanzure | or that it is not an isolated lever | 12:21 |
| fenn | well i don't think it's so simple as "make more dopamine, everyone is a genius and gets along fine" | 12:25 |
| fenn | but this sounds pretty bad | 12:25 |
| fenn | like, a real tradeoff | 12:25 |
| fenn | apparently it's pretty high in prevalence already (20-40% of european population) | 12:26 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=3c76a79a fenn: added warning about Taq1A allele >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/genetic-modifications/ | 12:36 |
| heath | kanzure: keep in touch with todd huffman much? | 12:40 |
| heath | was introduced to a guy today from Google who works on providing Internet access in challenging areas, especially in emerging economies | 12:40 |
| kanzure | i say hello once in a while to todd | 12:41 |
| heath | i know huffman is focused on 3scan still, but i thought it would be an interesting connection | 12:41 |
| heath | this guy also worked at guardant health prior his position at google | 12:41 |
| fenn | ... and? | 12:44 |
| fenn | i don't mean to be confrontational, but what are we supposed to do with this information | 12:45 |
| kanzure | (todd was doing remote internet access things) | 12:47 |
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| FourFire | this looks interesting http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbiol/article?id=10.1371/journal.pcbi.1004295 | 13:03 |
| FourFire | their methodology is relevant for my project | 13:04 |
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| fenn | .title | 13:04 |
| yoleaux | PLOS Computational Biology: Inferring Regulatory Networks from Experimental Morphological Phenotypes: A Computational Method Reverse-Engineers Planarian Regeneration | 13:04 |
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| archels | how much does it cost to get a simple app made for Android/Apple platforms? | 13:14 |
| archels | let's say, a very simple music player | 13:14 |
| archels | ballpark figure | 13:16 |
| heath | fenn: i was just wondering if kanzure stayed in touch with Todd, because I was writing a message to Todd to introduce these two people. Todd wouldn't know who I was, but I'm sure he remembers kanzure | 13:21 |
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| heath | archels: depends on who you hire and what you mean by simple. | 13:37 |
| heath | archels: best bet is to email a few companies asking what they would charge | 13:38 |
| archels | I want to outsource the bootstrapping part, essentially | 13:39 |
| archels | getting the build chain set up, some boilerplate code | 13:40 |
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| kanzure | archels: you can find ready-made examples of that for all platforms | 13:44 |
| kanzure | including pre-packaged developer environments (vagrant, etc) | 13:45 |
| kanzure | as for native applications themselves, it really depends on what you want to do. again in the vast majority of cases, simple work is already readily available from open-source projects. | 13:45 |
| kanzure | archels: for example, https://github.com/AndroidBootstrap/android-bootstrap | 13:49 |
| kanzure | heath: at this point it is far more likely that todd huffman would remember fenn rather than me (although i do say hi to todd every once in a while; his memory is definitely not fading haha) | 13:50 |
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| kanzure | "Developing the servo web browser engine using rust" http://arxiv.org/pdf/1505.07383v1.pdf | 13:56 |
| kanzure | "As mentioned in Section 2, all modern browsers use some combination of dirty bit marking and incremental recomputation heuristics to avoid reprocessing the full page when a mutatation is performed. Unfortunately, these heuristics are not only frequently the source of performance differences between browsers, but they are also a source of correctness bugs. A library that provided a form of self adjusting computation suited to incremental ... | 14:00 |
| kanzure | ... recomputation of only the visible part of the page, perhaps based on the Adapton [HPHF14] approach, seems promising." | 14:00 |
| kanzure | shouldn't someone be trying to engineer a sponge that can grow fast | 14:19 |
| kanzure | https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/38nakm/visualisation_of_darknet_market_lifespans/crwjega | 14:26 |
| kanzure | http://i.imgur.com/DLq1fDp.png | 14:27 |
| kanzure | "In April 2015, TheRealDeal, the first open cyber-arms market for software exploits as well as drugs launched.[37]" | 14:28 |
| kanzure | .wik TheRealDeal | 14:28 |
| yoleaux | "TheRealDeal is a darknet website and a part of the cyber-arms industry reported to be selling code and zero-day software exploits." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TheRealDeal | 14:28 |
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| kanzure | "Since about 2006 The Farmer's Market operated on Tor, until it was closed and several operators and users arrested in April 2012 as a result of Operation Adam Bomb, a two-year investigation led by the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration.[10] It has been considered a 'proto-Silk Road' but the use of payment services such as PayPal and Western Union allowed law enforcement to trace payments and it was subsequently shut down by the FBI in ... | 14:30 |
| kanzure | ... 2012.[11][12]" | 14:30 |
| kanzure | 6 years... | 14:30 |
| kanzure | found a two-page document of russell hanson's gold nanoparticle receptor labeling idea http://russellhanson.com/web/Cosyne-2013-Abstract-FINAL.pdf | 14:45 |
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| kanzure | .title http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/05/dont-fear-the-crispr.html | 15:21 |
| yoleaux | Don’t Fear the CRISPR | 15:21 |
| kanzure | .title http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2015/05/dont-fear-crispr-babies-2.html | 15:22 |
| yoleaux | Genetically Engineering Humans Isn’t So Scary (Don’t Fear the CRISPR, Part 2) | 15:22 |
| kanzure | "Height is similarly controlled by hundreds of gene. 697 genes together account for just one fifth of the heritability of adult height. (Paper at Nature Genetics here)." http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v46/n11/full/ng.3097.html | 15:23 |
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| kanzure | "And while it would pose issues for inequality, the best solution might be to try to rectify inequality of access, rather than ban the technique. (Consider that IVF is subsidized in places as different as Singapore and Sweden.)" | 15:24 |
| kanzure | cool | 15:24 |
| kanzure | .title http://iopscience.iop.org/1741-2552/9/5/056012 | 15:33 |
| yoleaux | Facilitation and restoration of cognitive function in primate prefrontal cortex by a neuroprosthesis that utilizes minicolumn-specific neural firing - Abstract - Journal of Neural Engineering - IOPscience | 15:33 |
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| kanzure | .title http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v46/n11/full/ng.3097.html | 15:36 |
| yoleaux | Defining the role of common variation in the genomic and biological architecture of adult human height : Nature Genetics : Nature Publishing Group | 15:36 |
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| fenn | .title http://www.scripps.edu/news/press/2015/20150309agingcell.html | 15:40 |
| yoleaux | Scripps Research, Mayo Clinic Scientists Find New Class of Drugs that Dramatically Increases Healthy Lifespan | 15:40 |
| fenn | i see jordan miller on the list of authors | 15:40 |
| fenn | it's about the "senolytics" quercetin and dasatinib | 15:40 |
| fenn | .title http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/acel.12344/abstract | 15:42 |
| yoleaux | The Achilles’ heel of senescent cells: from transcriptome to senolytic drugs - Zhu - 2015 - Aging Cell - Wiley Online Library | 15:42 |
| fenn | oh it's a different jordan miller... jordan D miller not jordan S miller | 15:44 |
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| kanzure | i wonder why 697 genes and not 5,000 genes or 50 genes | 15:55 |
| fenn | why are watermelons pink | 15:55 |
| kanzure | are they? | 15:55 |
| fenn | no, they're green | 15:56 |
| kanzure | well that's an easy answer then | 15:56 |
| kanzure | chlorophyll etc | 15:56 |
| fenn | my point was it's a dumb question | 15:58 |
| fenn | there are big dogs and small dogs. i doubt they have mutations in 700 genes to make them big or small | 16:00 |
| kanzure | i have no idea | 16:02 |
| fenn | ok here's another hypothesis for the pile of theores about the evolution of intelligence http://nootropics.com/intelligence/sexy.html | 16:09 |
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| kanzure | this paper mentioned some reasons why some women find intelligence and wordsaying to be attractive http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/language/Language%20evolution%20and%20human%20development.pdf | 16:11 |
| kanzure | it also has the potential to explain the "quantum physics" phenomenon that plagues okcupid | 16:11 |
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| chris_99 | "quantum physics" phenomenon? | 16:12 |
| punsieve | oh good I'm not the only one going, "bwah?" | 16:12 |
| kanzure | okcupid has a very large quantity of profiles that profess an interest in "quantum physics" | 16:12 |
| chris_99 | oh heh | 16:13 |
| punsieve | maybe a lot of people read Deepak Chopra? | 16:13 |
| fenn | but aren't you unfairly discounting the idea that okcupid overwhelmingly attracts quantum physicists? | 16:14 |
| kanzure | punsieve: entirely possible | 16:14 |
| kanzure | fenn: yes | 16:14 |
| eudoxia | ah, yes | 16:14 |
| punsieve | I met a theoretical physicist on there | 16:14 |
| eudoxia | i remember the old blogger profile from years back | 16:14 |
| eudoxia | "my interests: [...], quantum physics, [...]" | 16:14 |
| eudoxia | don't judge teenagers are idiots | 16:14 |
| fenn | do teenagers use okcupid? | 16:15 |
| eudoxia | idk probably | 16:15 |
| kanzure | there's a minimum age (18) but probably | 16:15 |
| punsieve | there didn't used to be... it used to be just a site that had a lot of fun quizzes, and the dating stuff was just an aside | 16:15 |
| punsieve | so I was on there at 15 or 16 | 16:16 |
| fenn | um... i think you were misled | 16:16 |
| kanzure | in the paper i linked above, the authors suggest that mate selection played a role with intelligence because why would you want a mate that is incompatible with group life or is really bad at it | 16:17 |
| fenn | hum | 16:17 |
| fenn | "TheSpark.com featured a number of humorous self-quizzes and personality tests, including the four-variable Myers-Briggs style Match Test. SparkMatch debuted as a beta experiment of allowing registered users who had taken the Match Test to search for and contact each other based on their Match Test types. The popularity of SparkMatch took off and it was launched as its own site, later renamed | 16:17 |
| fenn | OkCupid." | 16:17 |
| punsieve | well, it's possible I lied about my age, but was definitely a place where you took fun and silly quizzes you shared with you friends | 16:18 |
| kanzure | i think they had a clever entry into the market, yes. | 16:18 |
| kanzure | and they totally cornered the segment of the market that gets addicted to question-answering | 16:18 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20130117001930/http://www.okcupid.com/profile/Eyudkowsky | 16:19 |
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| eudoxia | >only one zindell novel | 16:20 |
| kanzure | right? | 16:21 |
| fenn | when you start listing 500 books people stop reading your profile | 16:21 |
| punsieve | nah, I just do ctrl+f for favorites | 16:22 |
| eudoxia | i'm surprised he only speaks english though maybe that's outdated | 16:24 |
| FourFire | I'm staying off IRC & Reddit for the next 30 days, productivity experiment | 16:25 |
| FourFire | cya all on the 7th, | 16:25 |
| dingo | kanzure: we set vova up with a new job remote, he's working on some ~1,000 graphviz node graph of something (product build related), i'm about to make one myself (salt state dependency tree), you ever play with graphviz much? any tips? | 16:25 |
| FourFire | (or not) | 16:25 |
| kanzure | FourFire: that's going to be a disaster | 16:25 |
| FourFire | kanzure, tell me about it once I've failed | 16:25 |
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| fenn | the 7th? | 16:25 |
| kanzure | FourFire: you should cut yourself off from the people physically around you, not the ones on the interwebs | 16:26 |
| kanzure | bah whatever | 16:26 |
| kanzure | he's doing it wrong | 16:26 |
| kanzure | dingo: yes i have done much graphviz things in my time | 16:26 |
| dingo | also i should clarify, i don't work with vova, cindy got him a job at 'VI' | 16:26 |
| kanzure | dingo: i once worked in a graph theory lab | 16:26 |
| kanzure | so.. graph stuff.. graphviz.. dot files.. yeah. | 16:26 |
| dingo | i've been mentally dreaming graph state trees for days now | 16:27 |
| fenn | graphviz is kinda dated | 16:27 |
| dingo | how i'd like it visualized | 16:27 |
| dingo | what's the good news, fenn | 16:27 |
| fenn | there are a lot of javascript visualization libraries that are more powerful | 16:27 |
| kanzure | unfortunately those require javascript | 16:27 |
| eudoxia | graphviz needs to make it easier to arrange clusters into shapes, god damn | 16:27 |
| dingo | not fitting in with the salt, python, yaml, theme | 16:27 |
| eudoxia | fenn: graphviz lets me build the graphs on the "server" (or my local computer) without running a node instance | 16:27 |
| kanzure | fenn also has lots of graphviz experience | 16:28 |
| dingo | eudoxia: that's exactly what i know i'll run into, the grouping and shifting and moving of the graph, manipulating it... i have a feeling i won't be able to | 16:28 |
| fenn | you won't be able to | 16:28 |
| dingo | i watched vova make a graph tree image that was a billion pixels wide, a few hundred tall | 16:28 |
| kanzure | dingo: there was some cool visualization stuff that came out of gephi | 16:28 |
| eudoxia | dingo: yeah best you can do is run the .dot file through some auxiliary programs that annotate each node with position (or weight?) info to control layout | 16:29 |
| eudoxia | it's quite terrible | 16:29 |
| fenn | i think you can export as svg and then mess with it in inkscape | 16:29 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: you should annotate while you are generating the file, not after | 16:29 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: no, the computer should figure that out for me | 16:29 |
| dingo | yeah, i'm ok with programmatic myself, but some documentation guide wants a sample partial-fail state tree to put in documentation prettily | 16:29 |
| kanzure | i have never made productive use of a graph that i have generated with graphviz | 16:30 |
| dingo | i thought i might see if there was something i could do to help him out with the pretty part | 16:30 |
| kanzure | for prettification there's various options but svg has more | 16:30 |
| dingo | i spent a week tackling state requires in salt, they were implicit, the state tree shifts, and then the implicit ones break unless they're made eplicit | 16:30 |
| dingo | and i thought, hell, damn, i wonder what this *looks* like, these "bugs" | 16:31 |
| dingo | if i could visualize that, mm mm | 16:31 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXCBh6QH5W0 | 16:31 |
| yoleaux | Introducing Gephi 0.7 - YouTube | 16:31 |
| dingo | "this pull requests changes state tree from A -> B" with image | 16:31 |
| dingo | just my friday developer dreams | 16:34 |
| fenn | "finally, an alternative to cytoscape!" | 16:34 |
| dingo | somebody else wrote what i need, but the data structures changed slightly since, but his alogorithms are crap.. i tried to persuade them, but now i'm mostly complete rewriting them, then i came down with flu | 16:35 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3Wo22jl4Ac&list=FLleLmaHO-WK_bJ_wJdcfB3Q | 16:35 |
| yoleaux | Wikipedia Edits During the Middle-East Protests - YouTube | 16:35 |
| dingo | i think his code gave me the flu | 16:35 |
| kanzure | i'm almost completely certain that's how the flu is transmitted | 16:35 |
| dingo | https://github.com/ceralena/salt-state-graph/blob/master/salt-state-graph.py | 16:35 |
| fenn | INFECTIOUS CODE ALERT - DO NOT OPEN!!! | 16:35 |
| dingo | do it, do it | 16:35 |
| kanzure | when i looked at the documentation for salt state states i found it incomprehensible | 16:36 |
| dingo | its not written for the layman OR a scientist | 16:36 |
| kanzure | strange to see pydot still being used, what happened to networkx? | 16:36 |
| kanzure | http://networkx.lanl.gov/ | 16:36 |
| dingo | its like the top 5% surface example plus raw api parameter definitions | 16:36 |
| dingo | that looks pretty good, that networkx | 16:38 |
| dingo | has weight and all | 16:39 |
| dingo | thanks for the tip | 16:39 |
| fenn | yeah i forgot all of the python graph things we used | 16:39 |
| fenn | they were all terrible though | 16:40 |
| kanzure | including my python reimplementation of graphviz :-) | 16:40 |
| kanzure | whoops i mean graphsynth | 16:44 |
| kanzure | i was thinking "huh it's strange that the project had the same name as graphviz" for a few minutes there, then i spontaneously remembered the correct name | 16:44 |
| kanzure | .wik cytoscape | 16:47 |
| yoleaux | "Cytoscape is an open source bioinformatics software platform for visualizing molecular interaction networks and integrating with gene expression profiles and other state data. Additional features are available as plugins." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytoscape | 16:47 |
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| kanzure | heh someone tried "cat /dev/urandom > /dev/random" http://security.stackexchange.com/a/69433/38412 | 17:54 |
| kanzure | .wik zimmermann-sassaman key signing protocol | 17:56 |
| yoleaux | "In cryptography, the Zimmermann–Sassaman key-signing protocol is a protocol to speed up the public key fingerprint verification part of a key signing party. It requires some work before the event." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann-Sassaman_key-signing_protocol | 17:56 |
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| kanzure | "The protocol was invented during a key signing party with Len Sassaman, Werner Koch, Phil Zimmermann, and others." | 17:56 |
| kanzure | heh | 17:57 |
| kanzure | "so phil zimmermann, werner koch and len sassaman walk into a bar..." | 17:57 |
| kanzure | "The Sassaman-Projected method is a modified version of the Sassaman-Efficient, with the purpose for large groups. They both follow the same way with the exception of verifying identity. Instead of doing it individually the 2 forms of ID are projected for everyone to see at once. Once the person has verified that it is their key, the rest of the participants make 2 check marks next to the key.[2]" | 17:58 |
| kanzure | hmm does a projected form of identification count | 17:59 |
| kanzure | i thought the point was to avoid possibly-fake digital images or something | 17:59 |
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| Betawolf | the point seems to be that you publically affirm that this is your key to a large group rather than one-by-one, I think. | 18:03 |
| kanzure | but you could have done that online | 18:03 |
| kanzure | there was a reason why they weren't doing it online in the first place | 18:03 |
| Betawolf | true, but they later present identification which matches with their physical appearance. I agree it could probably be skipped, it just seems to be a check so that the organisers of the party don't get people to affirm that the wrong key is theirs. | 18:05 |
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| Betawolf | i.e. you submit one key, turn up to the party and assume that the one you're showing people is the one you sent. Seems a rather unlikely failure mode. | 18:06 |
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| kanzure | fenn: so have you ever made an actually-useful graphviz image? | 19:16 |
| kanzure | when i said i have never learned anything from looking at a graph image like that, i was serious | 19:16 |
| fenn | sadly, no | 19:17 |
| fenn | i thought maybe i made one about manufacturing processes but i probably just dreamed that | 19:19 |
| fenn | i made a lot of graphviz images though, so i probably did make one useful one and just can't remember it | 19:20 |
| fenn | but stuff like call graphs and debian package dependencies are basically useless | 19:21 |
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| kanzure | my visual cortex is probably just stunted or whatever | 19:21 |
| kanzure | even the k-means-cluster graph images don't make sense to me. couldn't i just read a list of the clusters and their members instead? | 19:21 |
| kanzure | yes i have looked at lots of call graph images and extracted approximately zero utility | 19:22 |
| fenn | k-means clusters probably make more sense if you overlay gaussian contour lines | 19:23 |
| fenn | like the ellipse at 50% probability | 19:23 |
| kanzure | they make "sense"- i can see the clusters or whatever- but i could have just as easily seen them if printed out in a list instead. | 19:23 |
| fenn | is there a website where you just dump a CSV into it and it shows 50 different data visualization types? | 19:29 |
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| fenn | (and presumably stores your data to sell on a secret data black market) | 19:30 |
| fenn | it could all be done in javascript though | 19:31 |
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| kanzure | temple grandin dumped out a new book, http://www.amazon.com/The-Autistic-Brain-Thinking-Spectrum/dp/0547636458 | 20:18 |
| kanzure | "Instead of - or at least in addition to - assigning human subjects to studies through a common autism diagnosis, we should be assigning them by main symptom. I sometimes see researchers pooh-poohing self-reports. But as I learned from examples like Carly Fleischmann's description of feeling overstimulated in the coffee shop, I think what researchers should be doing is looking at the self-reports very carefully as well as eliciting them ... | 20:18 |
| kanzure | ... in new ways. They they should be putting the subjects into studies based on those self-reports." | 20:18 |
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| punsieve | that book is two years old | 20:24 |
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| JayDugger | Have I arrived 10^8 years ahead? | 20:52 |
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| jrayhawk | http://piny.be/ahl/architecture/ five years ago i made a graph explaining change propagation to people administrating some game servers for me once | 23:35 |
| jrayhawk | i think it was useful | 23:35 |
| jrayhawk | a graph useful to the person generating it is definitely a rarer circumstance | 23:45 |
| --- Log closed Sat Jun 06 00:00:33 2015 | ||
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