| --- Log opened Wed Jun 17 00:00:44 2015 | ||
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| pansophical | what are all the possible ways of boosting BDNF, and similar factors? | 04:36 |
|---|---|---|
| -!- erasmus|laptop is now known as erasmus | 04:36 | |
| archels | physical exercise | 04:37 |
| fenn | lion's mane mushroom | 04:38 |
| pansophical | fenn: i tried it for 3 months with no obvious effect | 04:38 |
| fenn | well who said it would be obvious | 04:38 |
| pansophical | not obvious effects are incredibly hard to measure, | 04:39 |
| pansophical | right.. | 04:39 |
| fenn | if your temperature goes up 1 degree it's easy to measure, but also not obvious subjectively | 04:40 |
| fenn | anyway, why are you interested in BDNF? | 04:40 |
| fenn | "Niacin appears to upregulate BDNF and tropomyosin receptor kinase B (TrkB) expression as well" | 04:41 |
| pansophical | fenn: guess i have a sufficient amount of free time ;) | 04:42 |
| fenn | hm nevermind about niacin, that was in the context of extreme deficiency | 04:43 |
| pansophical | it's a vitamin.. isn't it | 04:43 |
| fenn | .title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15381288 | 05:01 |
| yoleaux | Fluoxetine-induced change in rat brain expression of brain-derived neurotrophic factor varies depending on length of treatment. - PubMed - NCBI | 05:01 |
| fenn | there's talk that prozac's true mechanism may be due to upregulating BDNF, but who knows | 05:02 |
| fenn | 'Responders” to treatment (≥ 50% improvement in depression ratings) had higher pre-treatment BDNF levels than did “Non-responders” (p< 0.05). | 05:03 |
| fenn | These results confirm low serum BDNF levels in unmedicated depressed subjects and confirm antidepressant-induced increases in BDNF levels, but they suggest that antidepressants do not work simply by correcting BDNF insufficiency. Rather, these findings are consistent with a permissive or facilitatory role of BDNF in the mechanism of action of antidepressants. | 05:04 |
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| kanzure | hmm i wonder how much bdnf gets lost to serum | 05:12 |
| kanzure | .title http://www.dcbhv.org/ | 05:14 |
| yoleaux | DEF CON Bio Hacking Village | 05:14 |
| kanzure | gizmodo is now including their pgp public key at the bottom of each article? | 05:15 |
| archels | "Also, it should be sane..." | 05:20 |
| archels | bah | 05:20 |
| fenn | "Rita Levi-Montalcini (discoverer of NGF & subsequent Nobel Prize winner) had been taking pure NGF in the form of eyedrops every day for some 33 years until her death. She said, at age 103, that she was more mentally acute than she felt at age 20." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/is-this-the-secret-of-eternal-life-1674005.html | 05:21 |
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| kanzure | why would whether you feel mentally acute be misconstrued as "eternal life" by the journalist? | 05:24 |
| pansophical | it's a journalist, don't expect too much from them.. | 05:24 |
| fenn | sorry for the puff piece, it wasn't important | 05:25 |
| kanzure | pansophical: i should be free to apply absurdly high standards wherever i see fit, pfft | 05:26 |
| fenn | i guess i was mostly surprised that you could get any benefit from NGF eyedrops | 05:26 |
| pansophical | kanzure: that same freedom presupposes the freedom of some other party not to adhere to them ;) | 05:26 |
| kanzure | totes | 05:27 |
| kanzure | .wik nardosinone | 05:27 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed. | 05:27 |
| fenn | "NGF is abundant in seminal plasma. Recent studies have found that it induces ovulation in some mammals e.g. “induced” ovulators, such as llamas. Surprisingly, research showed that these induced animals will also ovulate when semen from on-schedule or “spontaneous” ovulators, such as cattle is used. Its significance in humans is currently unknown." | 05:28 |
| fenn | come on baby, let's do science | 05:28 |
| fenn | "NGF levels were significantly higher in the subjects in love ... but these levels return to as they were after one year." | 05:31 |
| kanzure | pansophical: you could also localized transcranial ultrasound bursting of bdnf microbubbles in the human brain | 05:32 |
| kanzure | also use* | 05:32 |
| fenn | you could also just inject it straight into your temple with a huge needle | 05:33 |
| pansophical | seems reasonable | 05:33 |
| kanzure | how precise could that be, though | 05:33 |
| fenn | don't be a wuss | 05:33 |
| pansophical | could we test it on you first ;) | 05:33 |
| kanzure | k | 05:33 |
| ebowden | What about a small molecule Blood Brain Barier permeable TrkB agonist, such as 7,8-dihydroxyflavone? | 05:33 |
| kanzure | what about it? | 05:34 |
| ebowden | Why not use that instead of injecting BDNF into the brain with a huge needle? | 05:34 |
| kanzure | that sounds even less localized | 05:35 |
| ebowden | It's orally bioavailable, you don't need to inject it all. | 05:35 |
| ebowden | Yup. | 05:35 |
| fenn | .wik 7,8-dihydroxyflavone | 05:35 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed. | 05:35 |
| fenn | pff | 05:35 |
| kanzure | dpk: plzfix yoleaux wik command | 05:35 |
| dpk | wtf | 05:35 |
| kanzure | dpk: i think it's broken because of the wikipedia https rollout? | 05:35 |
| dpk | how has that broken | 05:35 |
| ebowden | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7,8-Dihydroxyflavone | 05:35 |
| dpk | oh, probably | 05:35 |
| fenn | hum i've never heard of the herb called tridax | 05:37 |
| fenn | "Tridax procumbens is known for several potential therapeutic activities like antiviral, anti oxidant antibiotic efficacies, wound healing activity, insecticidal and anti-inflammatory activity." | 05:38 |
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| fenn | ooh and it's a hair tonic! | 05:38 |
| ebowden | Don't care about the herb much, mainly concerned with the TrkB agonist 7,8-dihydroxyflavone. | 05:38 |
| fenn | yes but it makes it much more likely that one could actually acquire the substance | 05:39 |
| dpk | .w test | 05:39 |
| yoleaux | test¹ (/tɛst/): n. 1. A procedure intended to establish the quality, performance, or reliability of something, especially before it is taken into widespread use; 2. short for Test match; v. Take measures to check the quality, performance, or reliability of (something), especially before putting it into widespread use or practice — http://is.gd/V6ZrmV | 05:39 |
| dpk | .tr :en :de lol | 05:39 |
| yoleaux | dpk: Sorry, that command (.tr) crashed. | 05:39 |
| dpk | i attempt fix | 05:40 |
| ebowden | The only way I've seen people get it is through custom synths. | 05:40 |
| ebowden | I don't think it is present in those herbs in very large amounts. | 05:40 |
| fenn | people are using it as a weight loss supplement i guess? http://www.primulaleafextract.com/ | 05:40 |
| ebowden | Only works in female mice. | 05:41 |
| ebowden | Well, 7,8-dihydroxyflavone does. | 05:41 |
| ebowden | No idea about the herb/ | 05:41 |
| ebowden | No idea about the herb. | 05:41 |
| fenn | do you think other common flavonoids are Trk-B inhibitors? | 05:42 |
| fenn | the molecular structure looks pretty similar to e.g. quercetin | 05:43 |
| dpk | .reload | 05:47 |
| yoleaux | dpk: Reload done (took 0.291s). | 05:47 |
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| dpk | .wik 7,8-dihydroxyflavone | 05:47 |
| yoleaux | "7,8-Dihydroxyflavone (7,8-DHF) is a naturally-occurring flavone found in Godmania aesculifolia, Tridax procumbens, and primula tree leaves." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7,8-dihydroxyflavone | 05:47 |
| dpk | .tr guten Tag | 05:47 |
| yoleaux | dpk: Sorry, that command (.tr) crashed. | 05:47 |
| dpk | (oh well, i tried) | 05:48 |
| fenn | .gc derp | 05:48 |
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| yoleaux | 17,500,000 (site), 1,400,000 (api) | 05:48 |
| fenn | .gc 7,8-dihydroxyflavone | 05:49 |
| yoleaux | 46,800 (site), 31,800 (end), 5,310 (api) | 05:49 |
| dpk | .quit | 05:49 |
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| dpk | .tr bonjour | 05:49 |
| yoleaux | dpk: Sorry, that command (.tr) crashed. | 05:49 |
| fenn | translate hasn't worked for a long time | 05:50 |
| dpk | yeah, i'm trying to fix it | 05:50 |
| fenn | "It is likely that many people take in small amounts of 7,8-dihydroxyflavone in their diets," Ye says. "But drinking green tea or eating apples doesn't give you enough for a sustained effect." | 05:59 |
| fenn | In the initial screening process, several flavonoid compounds had similar properties to 7,8-dihydroxyflavone. Ye says his laboratory has already identified compounds that are several times more active. The next step is more animal studies to choose compounds likely to have the best drug profiles: stable and non-toxic. | 05:59 |
| fenn | that was in 2010 | 05:59 |
| fenn | Keqiang Ye at Emory University | 05:59 |
| fenn | http://pathology.emory.edu/LabPages/Research_LabPage_YeK.cfm | 06:01 |
| fenn | pending patent 61/161,911, Catecholamine derivatives as TrkB Agonists, Useful for Treatment of Neurological Diseases and Obesity | 06:02 |
| dpk | .reload | 06:02 |
| yoleaux | dpk: Reload done (took 0.283s). | 06:02 |
| dpk | .tr ich freu mich auf dir | 06:03 |
| yoleaux | dpk: Sorry, that command (.tr) crashed. | 06:03 |
| dpk | whut | 06:03 |
| dpk | oh, it helps to actually deploy the changes | 06:03 |
| dpk | .reload | 06:03 |
| yoleaux | dpk: Reload done (took 0.285s). | 06:03 |
| dpk | .tr ich freu mich auf dir | 06:03 |
| yoleaux | I'm looking forward to you (de → en) | 06:03 |
| fenn | GRATZ DPK | 06:04 |
| ebowden | A more active derivative was 4'dimethylamino-7,8-dihydroxyflavone. | 06:04 |
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| fenn | wow people are already selling this chemical online | 06:07 |
| fenn | http://www.seoultrademall.com/co/hhdpharm/Nootropics_4_DMA_7_8--8673937_8484259.html | 06:10 |
| fenn | minimum order 10kg | 06:10 |
| ebowden | How do you know that they'll send you chemical, if anything at all? | 06:12 |
| ebowden | *the chemical, if | 06:12 |
| kanzure | why would that matter? | 06:16 |
| kanzure | there's lots of consumer protections in place (like chargebacks) | 06:16 |
| fenn | dealing with chinese suppliers is always going to be sketchy, regardless what it is that you're buying | 06:17 |
| fenn | apparently they actually managed to procure some from a lab in canada http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/67693-78-dihydroxyflavone-group-buy/ | 06:18 |
| fenn | "Some other supplements such as Bacopa monnieri and Polygala tenuifolia tend to work via activating this receptor via releasing BDNF in the brain." | 06:25 |
| fenn | .title http://www.researchgate.net/publication/264676311_Chronic_Administration_of_Bacopa_Monniera_Increases_BDNF_Protein_and_mRNA_Expressions_A_Study_in_Chronic_Unpredictable_Stress_Induced_Animal_Model_of_Depression | 06:27 |
| yoleaux | Chronic Administration of Bacopa Monniera Increases BDNF Protein and mRNA Expressions: A Study in Chronic Unpredictable Stress Induced Animal Model of Depression (PDF Download Available) | 06:27 |
| fenn | derp | 06:27 |
| ebowden | A less sketchy supplier: http://www.trc-canada.com/detail.php?CatNum=D452830&CAS=38183-03-8&Chemical_Name=7,8-Dihydroxyflavone%20&Mol_Formula=C15H10O4&Synonym=7,8-Dihydroxy-2-phenyl-4H-chromen-4-one;%207,8-Dihydroxy-2-phenyl-4H-1-benzopyran-4-one; | 06:30 |
| fenn | yes they also have the 4'dma-7,8-dhf | 06:30 |
| fenn | significantly more expensive though... 1200USD/2.5g | 06:31 |
| fenn | er, 1200USD/250mg | 06:31 |
| EnLilaSko | Oh, thought it was just 7,8-DHF | 06:32 |
| EnLilaSko | If it was, that would be super expensive, lol | 06:32 |
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| fenn | awareness and the availability as an herbal extract should drive the price of 7,8DHF down to dirt cheap | 06:34 |
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| EnLilaSko | 7,8-DHF is fairly cheap, atleast was | 06:34 |
| EnLilaSko | Is it ok to talk sources here? | 06:34 |
| ebowden_ | Where was it cheap? | 06:35 |
| EnLilaSko | tht.co | 06:35 |
| ebowden_ | Oh, been on that site. | 06:35 |
| EnLilaSko | Think New Star Nootropics and/or Ceretropic might carry it soon | 06:35 |
| EnLilaSko | I have some left, like 100 mg | 06:35 |
| fenn | is 1mg/kg correct dosage for a human? | 06:36 |
| EnLilaSko | .g examine.com 7,8-dihydroxyflavone | 06:36 |
| yoleaux | http://examine.com/supplements/7,8-Dihydroxyflavone/ | 06:36 |
| fenn | that's where i got those numbers from :\ | 06:36 |
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| EnLilaSko | Looks like 1 mg/kg | 06:36 |
| ebowden_ | EnLilaSko, where did you get it? | 06:37 |
| EnLilaSko | I got it from THT | 06:37 |
| ebowden_ | Is that the mouse dosage or human dosage? | 06:37 |
| ebowden_ | Ok. | 06:37 |
| EnLilaSko | The 1mg/kg is converted to human dosage (from rats) | 06:37 |
| kanzure | .title http://tht.co/ | 06:38 |
| yoleaux | TRANSHUMAN TECHNOLOGIES | 06:38 |
| EnLilaSko | It's not up atm | 06:38 |
| EnLilaSko | I think | 06:38 |
| ebowden_ | http://www.trc-canada.com/detail.php?CatNum=D452830&CAS=38183-03-8&Chemical_Name=7,8-Dihydroxyflavone%20&Mol_Formula=C15H10O4&Synonym=7,8-Dihydroxy-2-phenyl-4H-chromen-4-one;%207,8-Dihydroxy-2-phenyl-4H-1-benzopyran-4-one; | 06:38 |
| kanzure | https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/2hx9fd/review_of_transhuman_technologies_thtco/ | 06:38 |
| EnLilaSko | If you mailed new star nootropics, ceretropic or any other big supplier, they'll most likely start carrying it | 06:38 |
| kanzure | https://www.reddit.com/r/Scholar/comments/3a1276/libgen_is_now_banned_in_the_uk_does_anyone_have/ | 06:38 |
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| ebowden_ | "We are currently reorganizing the website to cater better to our academic and corporate clients." | 06:39 |
| kanzure | https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/39q6vy/whatever_happened_to_thtco_are_they_still_in/ | 06:39 |
| fenn | "As you can see, the product is very nicely packaged." woo, who cares | 06:40 |
| EnLilaSko | Hmm, they have said they wouldn't drop selling to the public | 06:40 |
| EnLilaSko | Maybe they changed again | 06:40 |
| kanzure | "Role of the phosphoinositide signal system and methylation of phosphatidylethanolamine in the development of long-term post-tetanic potentiation in rats" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9194057 | 06:41 |
| kanzure | this guy seems to be just nootropics + pokemon, i like him https://www.reddit.com/user/ProfWiki?sort=top | 06:41 |
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| EnLilaSko | Seems like 7,8-DHF did cost around 20-30 bucks | 06:44 |
| EnLilaSko | 1 g that is | 06:44 |
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| fenn | well there's always the slow way: http://b-and-t-world-seeds.com/cartall.asp?species=Tridax%20procumbens%20bs&sref=85703 | 06:49 |
| ebowden | How do you know you'd get reasonable doses? | 06:55 |
| fenn | "This plant commonly available everywhere in India.In North Karnataka its called as neeru kasa and in Hindi Ghamra. Its best Aurvedic antiseptic for wounds." | 06:55 |
| fenn | i have no idea what the concentration of 7,8-DHF would be | 06:55 |
| fenn | i guess you could extrapolate from concentrations of other flavones in similar plants, but ideally you'd have a chemistry lab analyze it | 06:56 |
| fenn | tridax has several other theraputic compounds in it, which makes it confusing | 06:57 |
| fenn | the herbology dosage could be for some other chemical/effect | 06:58 |
| EnLilaSko | Why did you start talking about 7,8-DHF btw? | 07:01 |
| fenn | .title http://www.ijarnp.org/index.php/ijarnp/article/view/58 | 07:02 |
| yoleaux | Extraction and Pharmacological Evaluation of Some Extracts of Tridax procumbens and Capparis decidua | Sharma | International Journal of Applied Research in Natural Products | 07:02 |
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| fenn | EnLilaSko: some random person came in and wanted to know "all the possible ways of boosting BDNF, and similar factors" | 07:02 |
| fenn | nevermind, this ijarnp paper is terrible - they only measure the microbial inhibition activity, not any standard measurement like mass or molarity | 07:06 |
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| EnLilaSko | aha | 07:26 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-Acetylserotonin#The_TrkB_receptor | 07:34 |
| fenn | a different small molecule | 07:34 |
| fenn | it probably has huge subjective side effects | 07:34 |
| fenn | 30 minute half life though | 07:36 |
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| JayDugger | Good morning. | 08:47 |
| delinquentme | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9731111 | 09:11 |
| delinquentme | in a CS forum ... they're talking abour crispr | 09:11 |
| delinquentme | #woot | 09:11 |
| kanzure | "In a little over 10 minutes, a Sensefy eBee drone flew over the Le Grand Bois quarry in Switzerland. The drone imagery was uploaded to Mapbox along with the digital surface model captured in flight. The imagery becomes an interactive map and our Surface API allows complex calculations to be performed on the digital surface model, like how much material was extracted from the quarry." | 09:16 |
| kanzure | oh is mapbox == skybox? | 09:16 |
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| eudoxia | kanzure: you might want to stalk this guy, he's doing computational chemistry work halfway between MNT and biologically-inspired nanochemistry https://chem.cst.temple.edu/directory/faculty/schafmeister/ | 11:19 |
| eudoxia | or that's what i got from a short talk on IRC http://log.irc.tymoon.eu/freenode/clasp?from=2015-06-17T13%3A00%3A52&to=2015-06-17T13%3A35%3A54 | 11:19 |
| kanzure | i really hate bird arguments | 11:27 |
| kanzure | i have never seen the bird argument used in the correct situation | 11:27 |
| kanzure | i think you could use selection to get a set of amino acids that build predictable three-dimensional structures | 11:28 |
| kanzure | predictable in the sense that the sequence predicts the result in some human-understandable way | 11:28 |
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| kanzure | beep | 17:45 |
| signo5 | boop | 17:49 |
| kanzure | ah.. | 17:50 |
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| kanzure | http://www.spacex.com/sites/spacex/files/spacex_hyperloop_pod_competition.pdf | 19:55 |
| kanzure | and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9720033 | 19:56 |
| kanzure | http://archiveteam.org/index.php?title=INTERNETARCHIVE.BAK | 20:00 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, i need a centrifuge | 21:21 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jun 18 00:00:45 2015 | ||
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