| --- Log opened Sat Jul 25 00:00:21 2015 | ||
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| justanotheruser | erasmus: what | 02:25 |
|---|---|---|
| erasmus | ha ha | 02:29 |
| justanotheruser | ? | 02:34 |
| erasmus | 07/25/2015 -:- 05:29:45 AM] matthewt sets mode +b *!*Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser | 02:50 |
| erasmus | [07/25/2015 -:- 05:29:45 AM] matthewt kicked justanotheruser from the channel. (unfunny trolling) | 02:50 |
| justanotheruser | what does my ##cooking ban have to do with transhumanism? | 02:50 |
| erasmus | you asked why I laughed. No? | 02:51 |
| justanotheruser | I'm confused, was your laugh transhumanist, or did you mistake this channel for my pm? | 02:51 |
| erasmus | I didn't say anything to you in here. You said [07/25/2015 -:- 05:27:47 AM] <justanotheruser> erasmus: what | 02:51 |
| erasmus | for no reason. | 02:51 |
| erasmus | Have you been drinking? | 02:52 |
| justanotheruser | you hilighted me | 02:52 |
| erasmus | no I didn't. | 02:52 |
| justanotheruser | you joining ##hplusroadmap hilights me | 02:52 |
| justanotheruser | also, yes | 02:52 |
| erasmus | fix your client. | 02:52 |
| erasmus | I first joined this channel on 2012-12-15 | 02:54 |
| erasmus | [17:24:26] Topic is biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA | http://gnusha.org/logs http://diyhpl.us/wiki http://groups.google.com/group/diybio | friends don't let friends do super college | 02:55 |
| erasmus | [17:24:26] Set by kanzure on August 10, 2012 11:01:18 AM EDT | 02:55 |
| justanotheruser | that was 12-15? | 02:55 |
| justanotheruser | topic hasn't changed much | 02:56 |
| erasmus | earliest I have from you in here is [10/06/2013 -:- 05:31:25 PM] | 02:57 |
| erasmus | andrew. | 02:57 |
| justanotheruser | hmm, my logs don't go that far back | 02:58 |
| justanotheruser | what did I say? | 02:58 |
| erasmus | [11/03/2013 -:- 11:20:17 PM] justanotheruser: jrayhawk: IRC has more smartasses per capita than any form of internet communication I have used | 02:58 |
| justanotheruser | lol | 02:59 |
| justanotheruser | wait, are you jrayhawk? | 02:59 |
| erasmus | I am not. | 02:59 |
| justanotheruser | oh ok | 02:59 |
| erasmus | you claim to have done work for hplusmagazine.com in the past | 03:00 |
| justanotheruser | what | 03:00 |
| justanotheruser | source? | 03:00 |
| erasmus | [11/04/2013 -:- 12:27:28 AM] kanzure: justanotheruser: the only relationship between hplusroadmap and hplusmagazine is that i mistakingly did work for hplusmagazine.com in the past, i guess | 03:00 |
| justanotheruser | context? | 03:00 |
| erasmus | oh wait | 03:00 |
| erasmus | that was him | 03:00 |
| justanotheruser | oh | 03:00 |
| justanotheruser | right | 03:01 |
| justanotheruser | yeah, I was pretty sure I didn't do work for hplusmagazine | 03:01 |
| erasmus | you are/were a student at Perdue who plays with paperbots. | 03:02 |
| justanotheruser | basically | 03:02 |
| justanotheruser | *played | 03:02 |
| justanotheruser | RIP paperbot | 03:02 |
| erasmus | you were sunna? | 03:03 |
| justanotheruser | I don't even know what that means | 03:03 |
| erasmus | you changed you handle to sunna and then to {`0__0`} | 03:03 |
| justanotheruser | oh, yeah, that was me dicking around in another channel | 03:03 |
| erasmus | yeah hard to remember all the trolling huh. | 03:04 |
| justanotheruser | not sure what you mean | 03:04 |
| justanotheruser | anyways, kanzure will probably punish me for all this pointless scrollback that should be in PM, feel free to message me in PM, though I may fall asleep | 03:04 |
| erasmus | nothing. I'm sure your heart is normally in the right place. | 03:04 |
| erasmus | yeah tbh I never chat in here. Just listen. You have been reaching out to me. | 03:05 |
| erasmus | I chat in ##cooking ##adhd and ##Neurofeedback | 03:05 |
| justanotheruser | Been trying to reach out to bluelobster too since bluelobster is interested in transhumanism and is smart enough to do it | 03:05 |
| erasmus | people have to be into it. | 03:06 |
| erasmus | I don't think it's something you can really GET someone into. | 03:06 |
| erasmus | it's like Kung Fu movies. | 03:06 |
| justanotheruser | Not sure what you mean. An interest is the first step to a hobby. | 03:06 |
| erasmus | yeah but it's not like come over and checkout my pottery collection | 03:07 |
| erasmus | biohacking is more self-guided. | 03:07 |
| erasmus | the need comes from within. | 03:08 |
| justanotheruser | yeah, but since he's interested in transhumanism, I linked him to the declaration. Not much else to do other than do something else and have him come if he wants | 03:08 |
| justanotheruser | It's not as if I'm trying to force it on him | 03:08 |
| justanotheruser | anyways, PM | 03:08 |
| erasmus | he's a multimillionaire who just retired. | 03:08 |
| erasmus | I don't think he cares about getting that edge. | 03:09 |
| erasmus | and doing all these bleeding-edge shit isn't exactly always the smartest thing to do. | 03:10 |
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| kanzure | erasmus: most of the things in here aren't really bleeding-edge. | 05:56 |
| kanzure | "oh noes some actuators and inkjets"... this is like 1970s. | 05:56 |
| erasmus | cutting? | 05:57 |
| kanzure | no i thikn you said bleeding, but my bad if you didn't | 06:00 |
| erasmus | I did say bleeding | 06:06 |
| erasmus | but adjusted. | 06:06 |
| erasmus | would you agree with cutting? | 06:06 |
| kanzure | i have no idea. what particularly advanced technologies are you thinking of? | 06:07 |
| erasmus | kanzure would you rather... dip your finger in acid OR get your big toes eaten by a camel? | 06:07 |
| kanzure | big toe; i need my fingers way more. | 06:08 |
| erasmus | but it's both toes | 06:08 |
| kanzure | that's fine | 06:08 |
| erasmus | you'll never run again | 06:08 |
| kanzure | that's not true | 06:09 |
| erasmus | sure it is | 06:09 |
| erasmus | you'd be cobbled | 06:09 |
| kanzure | lots of people run without toes, feet or even legs. what are you smoking? | 06:09 |
| erasmus | not w/o implants | 06:10 |
| erasmus | you might be able to have your thumbs grafted | 06:10 |
| erasmus | but then you'll lose two major fingers. | 06:10 |
| erasmus | I don't think you have thought this through. | 06:10 |
| erasmus | do you take any nootropics? | 06:11 |
| erasmus | n/m | 06:12 |
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| -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by lobsters everywhere, banned by the Federal Death Administration (5 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | "ray kurzweil is a pessimist" - george church | 06:46 | |
| -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@unaffiliated/kanzure] [Wed May 20 12:46:28 2015] | 06:46 | |
| [Users ##hplusroadmap] | 06:46 | |
| [ _hanhart ] [ BobaMa_ ] [ EnabrinTain ] [ kanzure ] [ pasky ] [ streety ] | 06:46 | |
| [ abetusk ] [ Burninate ] [ EnLilaSko ] [ kish ] [ PatrickRobotham] [ Stskeeps ] | 06:46 | |
| [ Adlai ] [ catern ] [ fenn ] [ marchtemp ] [ poohbear ] [ super` ] | 06:46 | |
| [ ahab ] [ cluckj ] [ gnusha ] [ mf1008 ] [ Porb ] [ superkuh ] | 06:46 | |
| [ altersid ] [ crescendo ] [ Guest58552 ] [ mgin ] [ Qfwfq ] [ Taek ] | 06:46 | |
| [ AmbulatoryCortex] [ Daeken ] [ Guest71952 ] [ midnightmagic] [ redlegion ] [ the8thbit] | 06:46 | |
| [ andytoshi ] [ delinquentme] [ heath ] [ MrJuulie ] [ rigel ] [ ThomasEgi] | 06:46 | |
| [ archels ] [ diginet ] [ helleshin ] [ nickjohnson ] [ ryankarason ] [ thundara ] | 06:46 | |
| [ augur ] [ dingo ] [ HEx1 ] [ night ] [ saurik ] [ TMA ] | 06:46 | |
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| [ balrog ] [ drethelin ] [ JayDugger ] [ nsh ] [ sivoais ] [ vivi ] | 06:46 | |
| [ berndj ] [ drewbot_ ] [ jrayhawk ] [ p4nd4 ] [ smeaaagle ] [ xrr ] | 06:46 | |
| [ Betawolf ] [ dustinm ] [ juri_ ] [ padz ] [ strages ] [ yoleaux ] | 06:46 | |
| [ bkero ] [ eleitl ] [ justanotheruser] [ ParahSailin_ ] [ strangewarp ] [ yorick ] | 06:46 | |
| -!- Irssi: ##hplusroadmap: Total of 84 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 84 normal] | 06:46 | |
| -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010 | 06:46 | |
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| JayDugger | Fuck...ZFS tuning. | 06:47 |
| JayDugger | suggestions? | 06:47 |
| JayDugger | Wrong channel, right. | 06:47 |
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| kanzure | "a resource guide for doing business in china" http://export.gov/china/build/groups/public/@eg_cn/documents/webcontent/eg_cn_055956.pdf | 08:11 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=c288169e Bryan Bishop: transcript: lightning network stuff >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/sf-bitcoin-meetup/2015-05-26-lightning-network/ | 11:04 |
| kanzure | "Repression of the heat shock response is a programmed event at the onset of reproduction" http://www.cell.com/molecular-cell/abstract/S1097-2765(15)00499-2 | 11:22 |
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| delinquentme | Why dont we currently bank monocytes? | 12:59 |
| delinquentme | this seems like a really smart 'dumb' way to push your aging down the line | 13:00 |
| kanzure | http://hackaday.com/2014/01/14/hydro-the-low-cost-waterjet-cutter/ | 13:02 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: well, there was a lot of push back to personal cell line banking because blood donation organizations claimed that it would encourage people to donate less blood. | 13:02 |
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| delinquentme | what the fack. | 13:03 |
| delinquentme | god fucking damnit | 13:03 |
| delinquentme | is it illegal? or just frowned upon? | 13:03 |
| kanzure | i don't remember, but i'm sure the fda licenses and regulates that activity :-( | 13:06 |
| kanzure | also: "median setup time for 'top machine shops' was 2.5 to 3 hours" http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/see-how-you-stack-up | 13:07 |
| kanzure | and in 2007 it was 5.8 hours of setup on average? wtf | 13:08 |
| mgin | ? | 13:10 |
| mgin | what's a machine shop | 13:10 |
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| kanzure | i keep forgetting about branch grafting. you can just tape branches together and the tree keeps on ticking. http://devour.com/video/tree-that-grows-40-kinds-of-fruit/ | 14:11 |
| justanotheruser | really? | 14:14 |
| justanotheruser | So I could have a multi-fruit tree? Awesome! | 14:14 |
| justanotheruser | I wonder the logistics of their tree | 14:14 |
| TMA | most are just varieties -- you cannot graft completely unrelated species successfully | 14:20 |
| Betawolf | apples mostly only work because of this feature | 14:20 |
| TMA | but the prunus genus is generally compatible | 14:20 |
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| TMA | so you can have nectarines, peaches, plums, almonds on one tree -- maybe even cherries, appricots and the less known prunes | 14:22 |
| TMA | apples are very special beasts -- they frequently mutate so that a single branch becomes a new variety (so you now have yellow or red Granny Smith apples instead of the regular green ones) | 14:25 |
| TMA | justanotheruser: the logistics are somewhat complex: each variety needs slightly different care (some varieties produce lot of new wood that needs to be cut more often, some are more brittle, ...) | 14:27 |
| justanotheruser | If I have 4 branches in a young apple tree, can I graft a different species branches on those branches and it will never grow apples from those branches? | 14:27 |
| Betawolf | I hadn't heard of this. What I was referring to was how their sexual reproduction produces radically different DNA, so breeding them from seed is impractical if you're after a specific characteristic (like a particular fruit). Hence they graft apple stocks for consistence. | 14:27 |
| TMA | justanotheruser: if you have an apple tree you will be able to graft other apples. maybe pears, if you are lucky and skilled | 14:28 |
| Betawolf | This probably makes apple crops quite vulnerable to diseases. | 14:29 |
| TMA | justanotheruser: but make the rootstock some prunus -- say an plum seedling. you can then graft almonds, peaches, nectarines onto that | 14:29 |
| justanotheruser | But in general, if I have one subspecies of apple, and graft 4 other subspecies, will it only grow the new grafted apples, or might it grow the original as well | 14:29 |
| TMA | justanotheruser: if you graft this way: ====---- (= is old wood, - is the grafted on new wood) then (a) from the = the original will grow (b) from - the grafted on variety will groe | 14:31 |
| TMA | *grow | 14:31 |
| justanotheruser | I thought it only mattered which was on top/furthest from root? | 14:32 |
| TMA | justanotheruser: and now for the important (c): if you permit big growth of the === stock, the grafts will die, because there is a resistance on the transition | 14:32 |
| TMA | justanotheruser: the only thing that matters is the DNA of the bud producing the fruit | 14:33 |
| TMA | if the bud is from the original wood, you get the original fruit | 14:33 |
| TMA | sometimes the situation is more compelex still: some varieties can be grafted onto some others but not on a generic rootstock, because the generic rootstock is way too incompatible with the special one | 14:35 |
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| TMA | so you graft a tolerant variety on the rootstock, then you graft the desired one on top of that | 14:36 |
| TMA | (i have encountered this with walnuts) | 14:36 |
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| justanotheruser | how do not permet growth of the big? | 14:37 |
| justanotheruser | *permit | 14:37 |
| kanzure | it's probably something like, "trees don't know the difference between a gash in a branch and a branch being replaced" | 14:37 |
| TMA | you cut off all the branches from the root stock. After the graft is big enough the rootstock will not make branches of his own | 14:38 |
| TMA | because there is an instruction "prefer making new branches on the crown circumference or at the top" | 14:39 |
| TMA | (bushes do not have this instruction, that's why they look like bushes not like trees) | 14:40 |
| TMA | "make new branches wherever you can" instruction is still there, as can be tested by cutting down a tree and watching the stump produce new trunks/branches | 14:41 |
| chris_99 | people have tried grafting hops to cannabis to see if you get THC from the hop, turns out you don't | 14:43 |
| TMA | interesting, that confirms that the THC is produced IN the flowers, not in the roots and transported | 14:44 |
| chris_99 | yeah, they also tried the opposite, cannabis to a hop plant, and the THC levels were the same as those in a normal cannabis plant | 14:46 |
| Betawolf | did they look at the hop foliage from those plants? | 14:46 |
| Betawolf | would be interesting to see if it bled out from the cannibis graft at all | 14:46 |
| chris_99 | sec, i'll see if i can find the paper | 14:47 |
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| chris_99 | oh paperbot thou are not 'ere | 14:51 |
| chris_99 | http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0031942275851004 | 14:51 |
| Betawolf | http://moscow.sci-hub.bz/42f2eb85473f69109e72b559c9b9b622/10.1016@0031-9422(75)85100-4.pdf | 14:52 |
| chris_99 | ta | 14:52 |
| Betawolf | (answer to my question would appear to be in the abstract: no evidence of transport) | 14:54 |
| Betawolf | and more clearly: "Leaves produced on H.japonicus stock from below a Cannabis graft showed no cannabinoids, and neither did a fruiting specimen of H. japonicus grown on Kew strain Cannabis for 17 weeks." | 15:05 |
| archels | delinquentme: there's some stuff in the logs about blood banking. somewhere. | 15:17 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=10363e92 Bryan Bishop: another lightning network presentation >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/sf-bitcoin-meetup/2015-02-23-scaling-bitcoin-to-billions-of-transactions-per-day/ | 15:51 |
| kanzure | moscow.sci-hub.bz -_________- great opsec gus | 15:52 |
| kanzure | *great opsec guys | 15:52 |
| Betawolf | I didn't know not to do that. What is the threat? | 15:55 |
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| kanzure | Betawolf: it's not your fault. they just shouldn't name their subdomains based on cities that their servers are located in. | 16:41 |
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| Betawolf | Ah, okay. I wondered if I was leaking something with that hash. For what it's worth, I think the three mirrors are 'moscow', 'oceania' and 'cyber', so it might just be they consider moscow safe enough. | 16:43 |
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| mgin | curious what other people's strategies are for living forever | 17:11 |
| juri_ | work hard. | 17:22 |
| mgin | just in general, or on something specific? | 17:24 |
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| juri_ | right now it's 3d printing. I'm missing way too much education. | 17:32 |
| mgin | you're working on 3d printing? | 17:32 |
| mgin | how is that a strategy to live forever? | 17:32 |
| juri_ | It's the thing i have to bring to the table. What skills are you bringing? | 17:34 |
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| mgin | that doesn't answer the question.. | 17:44 |
| juri_ | I think it does. I'm doing what i can. you should as well. | 17:45 |
| delinquentme | mgin, i dont follow how it doesnt answer the question | 17:45 |
| delinquentme | it reset immune system if you can muster 72 hours of it | 17:45 |
| delinquentme | it increases focus | 17:45 |
| delinquentme | it reattinuates your body to insulin sensitivity | 17:46 |
| delinquentme | it lowers body fat | 17:46 |
| mgin | what?? | 17:50 |
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| -!- geronimo is now known as justanotheruser | 17:53 | |
| mgin | what does 3d printing have to do with living forever | 17:53 |
| ryankarason | @big toe eaten by a camel | 17:54 |
| -!- justanotheruser is now known as kish\ | 17:55 | |
| -!- kish\ is now known as justanotheruser | 17:55 | |
| ryankarason | some time ago (maybe 3 years) i had a particularly interesting dream, where a friend of mine cut off my toe with a chainsaw | 17:55 |
| ryankarason | it was so painful that i woke up immediately, however there was a handful of brain cycles that looped during this wake up and i felt the pain flee away from my body in the second or so it took to come to consciousness | 17:56 |
| ryankarason | was /very/ interesting. | 17:56 |
| ryankarason | i was i had the ability at the moment to see how precisely my brain was generating the pain signals.. curious if there were any markers in my blood system or something.. | 17:57 |
| kanzure | neurotransmission is much faster than blood signalling | 18:00 |
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| delinquentme | yashgaroth, ParahSailin_ questions on antibody discovery. | 18:23 |
| yashgaroth | k | 18:24 |
| delinquentme | Im trying to come up with novel market ideas for an antibody a colleague of mine might be going after | 18:24 |
| delinquentme | right now hes interested for the long to-market solution being something totally uninspired : cGMP facilities | 18:24 |
| delinquentme | since we're working towards creating a known antibody with established function | 18:25 |
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| delinquentme | AND that within cancer drugs, some antibodies are known to bind quite well and others less so to known cancers | 18:26 |
| ryankarason | kanzure: aye.. i figured as much.. but by which method does it signal from foot to brain.. or was everything just happening in the brain? | 18:26 |
| delinquentme | I had thought that GIVEN that most all cancers are sequenced, and a known drug / cancer interaction... that atteniuating that drug to address possible other variants of the same cancer .. might be a good method forward | 18:26 |
| yashgaroth | I wish you luck with your clinical trials | 18:27 |
| delinquentme | except my friend writes this off as very difficult ... and thinks it falls surely within ' discovery ' | 18:27 |
| yashgaroth | is he working with a known antibody, as in developed/patented/tested/produced by some other company already? | 18:28 |
| delinquentme | yes its a generic | 18:28 |
| yashgaroth | very few cancer antibodies are generic at this point | 18:29 |
| delinquentme | sure | 18:29 |
| ParahSailin_ | lmgtfy | 18:29 |
| delinquentme | but modifying that | 18:29 |
| delinquentme | is that complex | 18:29 |
| delinquentme | my understanding of this is we've already got a controlled construct generating that antibody | 18:30 |
| delinquentme | and wed be modifying ~ 100 bps to change its conformation | 18:30 |
| delinquentme | the majority of that antibody stays the same no? | 18:30 |
| delinquentme | ParahSailin_, what am I googling? | 18:30 |
| yashgaroth | yes, you're probably only chanigng the antigen binding segment | 18:30 |
| delinquentme | but thats still complex | 18:31 |
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| yashgaroth | depends what you want to do with it, but yes | 18:31 |
| delinquentme | or is the complexity in getting FDA approval for the modified antibody? | 18:31 |
| yashgaroth | that's not so much complex as expensive and time-consuming | 18:31 |
| yashgaroth | also the only people with a "controlled construct generating that antibody" are the company currently selling it, and they won't give it to you; however it's easy enough to generate one | 18:32 |
| delinquentme | correct | 18:32 |
| delinquentme | thats our short term delivarable | 18:32 |
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| yashgaroth | how short term are you hoping | 18:33 |
| delinquentme | to get the antibody? hoping 3 months | 18:33 |
| delinquentme | weve also got a number of milestones setup to ease our way into it | 18:33 |
| delinquentme | and a researcher whos created this molecule in a research setting already | 18:34 |
| delinquentme | so like we feel thats achieveable | 18:34 |
| yashgaroth | stable cell line development is typically 6 months, but I believe in you | 18:34 |
| delinquentme | my concern is what to do after we get the antibody | 18:35 |
| yashgaroth | yeah who are you delivering it to after 3 months | 18:35 |
| delinquentme | cGMP and un-differentiated scale up sounds boring as shit | 18:35 |
| delinquentme | im injecting it | 18:35 |
| delinquentme | jk | 18:35 |
| drethelin | no do it | 18:35 |
| drethelin | inject that shit | 18:35 |
| yashgaroth | my sympathies on your cancer diagnosis | 18:35 |
| drethelin | DO IT FOR SCIENCE | 18:35 |
| delinquentme | we just want to crystalize it and verify that the end structure is as expected | 18:35 |
| delinquentme | now one thing we've talked about is cgmp purification | 18:36 |
| yashgaroth | GMP and scale-up is boring as shit, I can assure you | 18:36 |
| delinquentme | which is at least a LITTLE more differentiated | 18:36 |
| delinquentme | hahahaha | 18:36 |
| drethelin | I've heard of GMP, what's cGMP?> | 18:36 |
| yashgaroth | you don't need GMP manufacturing for a crystal structure, tbh you don't need a crystal structure | 18:36 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, yeah I started reading and eyes insta-glossed over | 18:36 |
| yashgaroth | "current GMP" | 18:36 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, correct. | 18:37 |
| yashgaroth | it's all paperwork and document review boards and ugh kill me | 18:37 |
| delinquentme | GMP is the like 5/10 year goal | 18:37 |
| yashgaroth | ok good | 18:37 |
| delinquentme | but getting REALLY good at protein characterization could be hot and useful | 18:37 |
| delinquentme | I mean *ANYONE* whos putting shit into people wants really well characterized molecules | 18:38 |
| yashgaroth | nah not really, run some gels, HPLC, glycosylation analysis, terminal sequencing, mass spec, that's good enough | 18:38 |
| delinquentme | so thats at least got me paying attention | 18:38 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, Y U NO neutron diffraction? | 18:38 |
| delinquentme | xray crystalography | 18:38 |
| delinquentme | low-g crystalization | 18:38 |
| yashgaroth | it's just a fucking antibody, jesus | 18:39 |
| delinquentme | these suck less than paperwork | 18:39 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, its not just the antibody though, its the 3% of unknowns in that compound | 18:39 |
| yashgaroth | what unknowns | 18:39 |
| delinquentme | when a drug is guaranteed at 97% purity | 18:39 |
| yashgaroth | a. you're not gonna see those in a crystal, and b. 97% is way too low for injectables | 18:40 |
| delinquentme | Ah! | 18:40 |
| delinquentme | so how to get higher then? | 18:40 |
| yashgaroth | more purification steps, depending on the nature of the contaminants | 18:40 |
| delinquentme | the partner seems to be interested in 'molecular velcro' as a protocol | 18:40 |
| drethelin | why does your product have unknownsin the first place | 18:40 |
| delinquentme | which I semi understand | 18:41 |
| drethelin | don't you control the ingredients and do filtration and whatnot/ | 18:41 |
| delinquentme | drethelin, sure but im not trying to explain right now | 18:41 |
| yashgaroth | no just run a Protein A column, then Q, then size-exclusion or something, it's not rocket science it's just biochemistry | 18:41 |
| delinquentme | drethelin, easy one is uncharacterized growth medium | 18:41 |
| kanzure | drethelin: some antibody production techniques are just "use some rabbit" | 18:42 |
| kanzure | so... rabbit stuff. | 18:42 |
| yashgaroth | shoot cancer into rabbit, wait 12 weeks, "extract" | 18:42 |
| delinquentme | yay antobodies! | 18:42 |
| drethelin | kanzure: hah fair | 18:43 |
| yashgaroth | I always have to sit and wonder when I receive 20 liters of hybridoma ascites from a mouse host, like how many tens of thousands of mice went into this | 18:43 |
| yashgaroth | however you will be using CHO cells in defined media | 18:43 |
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| yashgaroth | anyway molecular velcro seems like a hip new protocol but you don't need to fuck around with that for mass purification | 18:45 |
| drethelin | https://srconstantin.wordpress.com/2015/07/19/we-could-regrow-livers/ | 18:46 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, his concern is regeneration / maintainance of the columns | 18:47 |
| delinquentme | I've only read about this but from what I read it seems simple | 18:47 |
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| yashgaroth | nah, if you're not an idiot you can regenerate them a hundred times and they'll lose maybe 10% binding capacity, and that's with the last-gen resins | 18:47 |
| yashgaroth | and that's only for Protein A, ion-exchange/size-exclusion/hydrophobic interaction resins you can cycle way more since they're not protein-based | 18:48 |
| yashgaroth | the amortized cost of columns is a small fraction of purification cost, and I'm saying that as someone who regularly packs columns with $250k worth of resin | 18:50 |
| drethelin | I love how small huge piles dollars can get in biochem | 18:51 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, awesome . thanks for the comments. | 18:52 |
| delinquentme | yeah idk man . like I LIKE our path ... UP TO the FDA approval part | 18:53 |
| delinquentme | like everything we've talked about w getting the molecule sounds quite attainable | 18:53 |
| yashgaroth | yeah I'd recommend skipping the FDA part | 18:53 |
| delinquentme | but then theres the sitting on my thumbs with the FDA approval | 18:53 |
| delinquentme | it IS off patent in euro already though so | 18:53 |
| delinquentme | unsure if the FDA equivalent over there sucks any less | 18:53 |
| delinquentme | also of interest is that we can *totally* compete on cost in the 3rd world | 18:54 |
| yashgaroth | so what is it, rituxan? | 18:54 |
| delinquentme | again more SUPER interesting paths to market YAY " we're cheaper " | 18:54 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, :D thats our second compound | 18:54 |
| drethelin | "skipping the FDA" seems | 18:55 |
| drethelin | risky | 18:55 |
| yashgaroth | well unless you have some secret sauce to mutate the antibody, with data to back it up, you'll still find it difficult to compete | 18:55 |
| yashgaroth | china produces very good antibody, low price, best quality ,totally legit testing, no hairs | 18:56 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, what do you mean mutate the antibody ? | 18:56 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, !! maybe thats a path. | 18:56 |
| delinquentme | develop the process and then take it to a chineze mfgr | 18:56 |
| yashgaroth | I assumed with the "discovery" part you were maybe going to do something so it wouldn't just be a biosimilar | 18:56 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, nah the current plan is specifically a biosimilars applicaiton | 18:57 |
| delinquentme | but I dont imagine that to be trivial either | 18:57 |
| yashgaroth | well "develop the process" means shove the expression cassette into some cells, pick a high-producing clone, and then feed it into a pretty generic purification | 18:57 |
| delinquentme | aside: cost approximation on biosimilars approval? | 18:57 |
| yashgaroth | less than for a new drug, but still never been tackled by anyone less than huge pharma | 18:58 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, right. thats about what we're looking to do for the first 3 months | 18:58 |
| delinquentme | partner seems pretty bullish on being able to raise $$$ to last through that | 18:58 |
| delinquentme | which im quite ehhhh on | 18:58 |
| yashgaroth | yeah I could do that for a quarter-mil easy, probably less | 18:58 |
| delinquentme | esp considering there are like a few more than 10 generics manufactures who have that scale already | 18:59 |
| yashgaroth | way easier to outsource it to a CRO | 18:59 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, his approx was 150 mil for biosimilars | 18:59 |
| delinquentme | ^ my thoughts | 18:59 |
| yashgaroth | oh for like FDA approval, yeah | 18:59 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, youre saying you could get to the molecule for sub 250k | 18:59 |
| yashgaroth | I could give you a cell line that produces a few grams per liter, albeit in closer to 6 months yeah | 19:00 |
| yashgaroth | and develop the purification process ofc | 19:00 |
| yashgaroth | the 150mil is for FDA/clinical trials/cGMP scale-up | 19:00 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, yeah thats about the money we're looking at | 19:01 |
| delinquentme | and I think we've established that that portion is doable | 19:01 |
| yashgaroth | well the first 3 months is a tiny fraction of that | 19:01 |
| delinquentme | probably | 19:01 |
| delinquentme | ... but I think my interest is getting $$$ | 19:02 |
| yashgaroth | feel free to inflate the projected costs in your slide deck | 19:02 |
| delinquentme | I want something closer to market | 19:02 |
| delinquentme | if we were selling products in 3 months I'd be happy | 19:02 |
| delinquentme | we do think well be able to make some novel cell lines but IDK if selling that will be wildly lucrative | 19:03 |
| yashgaroth | well your options there are to either skip regulatory approval, or manufacture & sell it outside the U.S./EU | 19:03 |
| yashgaroth | also there are dozens of CROs who do that every day, making cell lines and purification processes is pretty trivial these days | 19:03 |
| yashgaroth | and may I recommend south america for your black clinic | 19:04 |
| delinquentme | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Medicines_Agency | 19:04 |
| delinquentme | this does seem more approachable | 19:04 |
| delinquentme | hahaha | 19:04 |
| delinquentme | yeah | 19:05 |
| delinquentme | but its still worth some money | 19:05 |
| yashgaroth | a surprisingly small amount of money, trust me, especially for someone who could presumably make far more money mashing on a keyboard | 19:05 |
| delinquentme | getting a cell line to a molecule with an established market is, in my uneducated opinion, worth something | 19:05 |
| yashgaroth | it's worth the lowest bidder in a saturated market, albeit with some cost-savings by 'cutting out the middleman' as it were | 19:06 |
| delinquentme | I can make money programming for sure ... but I mean its nowhere near the market cap on these drugs | 19:06 |
| delinquentme | we're talking both are in excess of 5b a year | 19:06 |
| yashgaroth | however you are competing with several very large corporations that have a wealth of experience, and masses of underemployed biologists to labor for them | 19:07 |
| yashgaroth | if there is a market for a competitor's biologic when it goes out of patent, they will move on it | 19:08 |
| delinquentme | yeah | 19:08 |
| yashgaroth | this is only if you plan to compete in the regulated space, obviously | 19:08 |
| delinquentme | maybe we should just name the company 'black market biologics' | 19:08 |
| yashgaroth | nah I snagged that one already | 19:09 |
| delinquentme | SoB | 19:09 |
| yashgaroth | so yeah your option is to sell it straight-up black market in US/EU, or in the far less profitable "developing world", where you're still competing, just with cut-rate back-alley operations instead of megacorps | 19:10 |
| yashgaroth | or the third option, black clinic in south america, where US/EU citizens fly to get your high-quality antibodies | 19:11 |
| delinquentme | I do kinda want to run a megacorp though | 19:11 |
| delinquentme | are there hospitals in africa which would run something like that as clinical trials? | 19:11 |
| delinquentme | i'd guess the answer is yes | 19:11 |
| yashgaroth | mostly in india, africa doesn't quite have the infrastructure | 19:12 |
| delinquentme | idk how I feels about this | 19:12 |
| yashgaroth | foreign clinical trials are rarely recognized, especially those run in less scrupulous countries | 19:12 |
| delinquentme | true | 19:12 |
| delinquentme | but for our own edification ... they could be useful | 19:12 |
| yashgaroth | hell even clinical trials run in the US are dubious enough | 19:13 |
| delinquentme | but then i guess I worry about getting mismatched tumor cells or totally 3rd party genomes | 19:13 |
| delinquentme | hahaha | 19:13 |
| yashgaroth | anyway it certainly has potential to work, and I'm not just saying that so I can buy up your equipment in a firesale next year | 19:15 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, youre not in the SF area are you ? | 19:16 |
| yashgaroth | nah but I | 19:16 |
| yashgaroth | 'll drive up there if the deals are good | 19:16 |
| delinquentme | good well we'll ensure the equipment is nice and dense | 19:16 |
| delinquentme | EVERYTHING VIBRATION DAMPENED | 19:16 |
| yashgaroth | much as I would like to live in SF, I'm rather priced out by the python wranglers etc | 19:16 |
| delinquentme | san jose? | 19:17 |
| delinquentme | if it makes you feel better I dont own a dog or a car | 19:17 |
| delinquentme | all muh pets R servers | 19:17 |
| yashgaroth | it's all one rooms that cost more than a house here, and I thought san diego was expensive | 19:17 |
| delinquentme | haha yeahh | 19:17 |
| delinquentme | $800 for my apt in oakland | 19:18 |
| delinquentme | but is nice and central | 19:18 |
| yashgaroth | did I hear you were doing some work with carlo quinonez, or was that someone else | 19:18 |
| drethelin | I like that I pay 1/3 the price of SF | 19:19 |
| drethelin | or berkeley | 19:19 |
| drethelin | too bad it means I never get to hang out with the coolest california kids | 19:19 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, I've met up with him a number of times | 19:21 |
| delinquentme | but I think hes pretty engaged with his current efforts | 19:21 |
| delinquentme | ( at the job ) | 19:21 |
| yashgaroth | fair enough | 19:21 |
| delinquentme | isaac yonemoto is the current individual I might be working with | 19:21 |
| yashgaroth | it is an antibody though right? not this small-molecule 9-deoxysibiromycin | 19:24 |
| delinquentme | it is an antibody | 19:24 |
| yashgaroth | and this isaac is not the person | 19:28 |
| yashgaroth | ...who previously worked on this antibody, right? | 19:28 |
| yashgaroth | the "a researcher whos created this molecule in a research setting already" | 19:29 |
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| delinquentme | correct. thats a different individual | 19:31 |
| delinquentme | one of our mutual friends | 19:31 |
| yashgaroth | ah ok I was gonna say, this guy's pure chemistry | 19:31 |
| delinquentme | alright! relocating | 19:33 |
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| kanzure | http://lesswrong.com/lw/gv/outside_the_laboratory/ | 19:51 |
| kanzure | oh wait, nevermind. much more boring than i thought. | 19:51 |
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| justanotheruser | "Large dielectric constants are undesirable, since they mean a large capacitance of the piezo tube, which will limit the scanning frequency obtainable for a given drive current." | 20:36 |
| justanotheruser | Isn't this dependent on how much precision you are looking to get? | 20:39 |
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