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| JayDugger | http://blog.jacobtorrey.com/mitigations-to-the-memory-sinkhole | 00:37 |
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| xtalmath | is this satire or real comment? http://benjaminmillam.com/cat-geek/monkey-the-cat-hunts-for-dinner/#comment-64 | 03:44 |
| xtalmath | its perfectly balanced on the border of credibility and trolling | 03:44 |
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| kanzure | hmph | 06:32 |
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| kanzure | .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10029943 | 07:26 |
| yoleaux | Why you should be reading Liu Cixin, China’s hottest science-fiction writer | Hacker News | 07:26 |
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| kanzure | grr https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3gcbw5/how_should_bitcoin_be_governed_upcoming_epicenter/ctwuawd | 08:02 |
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| xtalmath | kanzure: do you sincerely believe voting is bad in general, or only for bitcoin? | 08:22 |
| gradstudentbot | Is there free food at that seminar? | 08:22 |
| archels | \o/ | 08:29 |
| kanzure | xtalmath: yes, voting is extremely broken | 08:30 |
| xtalmath | why ditch instead of fix? | 08:30 |
| kanzure | i believe it's theoretically impossible to fix voting | 08:30 |
| xtalmath | kanzure: still not clear if this is about bitcoin or society in general? | 08:30 |
| kanzure | in general | 08:30 |
| kanzure | but bitcoin especially | 08:31 |
| kanzure | for example, many people have proposed making bitcoin transactions that contain votes | 08:31 |
| xtalmath | kanzure: is it because people want to vote on outcomes? | 08:31 |
| kanzure | the problem is that miners can trivially censor those transactions | 08:31 |
| kanzure | and there's also sybil vulnerabilities to voting schemes | 08:31 |
| kanzure | andytoshi: got any others off the top of your head? | 08:31 |
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| andytoshi | kanzure: other questions for gavin? or other problems with voting? | 08:32 |
| kanzure | voting | 08:33 |
| andytoshi | the other problem is that it creates incentives for double-spending | 08:34 |
| xtalmath | kanzure: if there was formal proof for a protocol that miners can not censor, and sybil free in some way, would you still oppose it? | 08:34 |
| andytoshi | so it might weaken or break the incentives toward forming consensus on a single chain | 08:34 |
| kanzure | xtalmath: yes, i have other existential objections to voting | 08:35 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: could you explain the incentives for double-spending? | 08:35 |
| xtalmath | kanzure: I think it is the more existential objections that interest me | 08:35 |
| andytoshi | er, double-spending is not quite what i mean. i mean rewriting history | 08:35 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: if a miner wants to change the outcome of a vote, she can do so by replacing old blocks with new ones (and censoring in the new ones) | 08:35 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: so that makes changing vote outcomes proportional to time since the original vote | 08:36 |
| kanzure | i think that voting might work in some extremely restricted scenarios, but the restrictions are so numerous that it's practically worthless | 08:37 |
| kanzure | it might work when the vote-options are indistinguishable from noise | 08:37 |
| kanzure | or where the actual decision is irrelevant | 08:37 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: it makes the difficulty in changing vote outcome proportional to its age, yeah | 08:37 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: also not sure how outcome of a vote is malleable, if a certain quorum is necessary (it is not like the miner can forge signatures) | 08:37 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: right, i wasn't thinking clearly about the inability to forge signatures. but miners can censor | 08:38 |
| kanzure | and also miners can just make their own transactions, who cares | 08:38 |
| andytoshi | tho this might be partially solvable with interesting crypto, e.g. aggregating signatures so miners can't separate votes | 08:38 |
| xtalmath | kanzure: so you do not think that democracy (or some form of it) is desirable? | 08:38 |
| kanzure | what is your definition of democracy? | 08:38 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: I think censorship can be remedied with an interactive protocol with the miner | 08:38 |
| * andytoshi goes on record saying democracy (meaning giving control to humans, in particular control in proportion to the group size of them) is not desirable in itself | 08:39 | |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: so that the voter can prove to the next block miner his vote was censored | 08:39 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: interaction usually does not let you prove things about the interaction | 08:39 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: this way the miners can be rewarded more if they gather previously censored votes | 08:39 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: except to the original participants | 08:39 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: but sure, i expect there's a way to prove censorship.. | 08:40 |
| andytoshi | ...in that case there is an incentive for miners to collude with voters to "censor" votes | 08:40 |
| andytoshi | and then claim the reward for exposing it | 08:41 |
| kanzure | sounds like an incentive to not actually publish anyhting at all until later | 08:41 |
| kanzure | game of chicken or something | 08:41 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: the payment for the first miner is delayed by a couple of blocks, so he loses proportionally | 08:41 |
| xtalmath | in fact not proportionally, one provably censored vote is not payment for the miner | 08:42 |
| xtalmath | hmm yeah I still see problems | 08:42 |
| xtalmath | but I still think a quest for a provably non-malleable voting scheme is desirable | 08:43 |
| andytoshi | i think you'll be forced into adding so much complexity that you can no longer see the incentive problems, but they'll still be there | 08:43 |
| andytoshi | but i think that based on experience | 08:43 |
| andytoshi | i'm sure there's some fundamental law or something that breaks these kind of things, but i have no idea yet what it is | 08:43 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: deep deep down, there is an incentive problem with the transaction crypto ecdsa as well, once you know the solution its probably inexpensive to steal random peoples bitcoins... | 08:45 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: "know the solution"? | 08:46 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: can you elaborate on this? | 08:46 |
| xtalmath | hehe | 08:46 |
| xtalmath | also, why be satisfied with censorable transactions, but not with censorable votes? | 08:47 |
| andytoshi | because transactions only affect the participating parties | 08:47 |
| andytoshi | and to be fair, we aren't really happy with censorable transactinos :P | 08:47 |
| xtalmath | agreed | 08:48 |
| andytoshi | a lot of the work blockstream is doing with "confidential transactions" etc is to make transactions less distinguishable from each other, to discourage censorship | 08:50 |
| andytoshi | err, a lot of the motivation behind this work | 08:50 |
| xtalmath | is there similar work motivated for "confidential votes" ? | 08:53 |
| kanzure | haha someone tried to claim that i don't know what BDFL means | 08:54 |
| kanzure | (in the replies) | 08:55 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: a looot of modern crypto research is about confidential voting | 08:55 |
| andytoshi | and almost none of it is remotely related to blockchains, it's just not really a good fit | 08:55 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: a seemingly trivial way to make votes hidden from the miner, is clients individually encrypt votes, miners gather ciphertext until voting period is over, then clients release private keys to each other directly for a certain period of blocks, and after these 2*N blocks, clients reject miner blocks that miss a private key the client itself has seen. | 08:56 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: no need for encryption, just use hashes and hash preimages | 08:57 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: sure, then its salts instead of private keys | 08:58 |
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| xtalmath | (without encryption, or salted hashes the miner can see the vote, also, without encryption how do you prevent sybil attacks other than weighing by signing by a transaction related key, i.e. proportional to $) | 08:59 |
| xtalmath | i.e. vote by stake | 09:00 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: encryption with an unknown key is identical to hashing as far as what it reveals about the original input | 09:00 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: not an unknown key, but one signed with your money | 09:00 |
| xtalmath | so people have to move their money, but that deanonymizes your money fragmentation... | 09:01 |
| andytoshi | what property do you want? that voting costs $$? | 09:01 |
| xtalmath | no just move it, and adjust transaction structure to contain a field for voting. | 09:01 |
| andytoshi | i'm still confused about why you think using encryption in place of a hash is better | 09:02 |
| andytoshi | or why money ought to be moved alongside votes | 09:03 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: how do you prevent me from voting more than once? or how do I prove it is proportional to stake? | 09:03 |
| xtalmath | i.e. how do you propose to use hashes? | 09:03 |
| kanzure | why would stake proportionality matter | 09:03 |
| andytoshi | in a centralized system you have every participant have their key (or hash salt) blindly signed by the voting authority | 09:03 |
| andytoshi | in a decentralized one you could make each salt cost money by requiring it be committed to by an op_return output | 09:04 |
| xtalmath | kanzure: I don't say it does, just curious how sybil attack is prevented in his hashing scheme? | 09:04 |
| andytoshi | but you really really do not want "money buys votes" | 09:04 |
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| xtalmath | man, I should really write up my anti sybil attack protocol | 09:04 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: how is sybil prevented by your encryption scheme? i'm telling you they are identical, except that encryption is more expensive and the security property isn't really related to what you're trying to accomplish | 09:05 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: I already agreed they are identical, in the sense that salted hashing and then later revealing is a form of encryption | 09:06 |
| andytoshi | ok, cool, that's all i was arguing | 09:06 |
| andytoshi | sybil resistance has to be done on top of that | 09:06 |
| xtalmath | yes, but I wont elaborate on that :) | 09:06 |
| andytoshi | well, ultimately you need to decide what "sybil" means. do you want one vote per $, or one vote per computational cycle, or one vote per person? the first two are "solved" by bitcoin and hashcash respectively. the latter seems to be to require a voting authority to hand out tokens | 09:07 |
| andytoshi | and you can do this privately by blind signatures | 09:07 |
| kanzure | you can't do sybil at the registration process? | 09:08 |
| xtalmath | I know a protocol that is one vote per person who has a specific -but widespread- peripheral. | 09:08 |
| andytoshi | kanzure: well you'd have to show a passport or something :P | 09:08 |
| kanzure | yeah i'm pretty sure people spoof those all the time | 09:09 |
| xtalmath | kanzure: then you are simply displacing sybil attack to the registration process, but yes, it is better to put it at registration, so you can vote multiple times | 09:09 |
| andytoshi | i haven't seen evidence that it's a significant problem in existing human-based voting schemes .. in places where you see tons of election fraud it's the voting authorities who do it | 09:10 |
| andytoshi | in western countries it seems like it's just not significant enough to affect outcomes | 09:10 |
| kanzure | er isn't that indistinguishable? how would you prove it was the authorities. | 09:10 |
| kanzure | or that it wasn't | 09:10 |
| andytoshi | i'm making trust judgements on the authorities here, and looking at motivations for fraud from them and the voters | 09:11 |
| andytoshi | i don't have anything solid to say here | 09:11 |
| kanzure | it's interesting how everyone is so obsessed with voting | 09:11 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: you can never be sure, here in belgium, voting location is almost always in schools, and schools here lack money, and depend on banks for changes in infrastructure | 09:11 |
| kanzure | i have no idea why this is | 09:11 |
| andytoshi | except that i think it's really hard (maybe impossible) to say anything solid because this is ultimately a problem of identifying humans | 09:11 |
| c0rw1n | in westernland all the authorities are cheating but they're mostly on a similar level of power to fraud | 09:12 |
| c0rw1n | so it evens out | 09:12 |
| kanzure | westernland sounds like a terrible amusement park | 09:12 |
| c0rw1n | lol | 09:12 |
| xtalmath | it kind of is? | 09:12 |
| c0rw1n | hey an other belgian! o/ | 09:13 |
| xtalmath | what city? | 09:13 |
| c0rw1n | Liège | 09:13 |
| xtalmath | Gent | 09:13 |
| c0rw1n | oh well, just needs a brusselian and we'll be representative :D | 09:14 |
| xtalmath | haha | 09:14 |
| xtalmath | what do you do in life? | 09:14 |
| kanzure | crush my enemies and see them driven before me. you? | 09:14 |
| c0rw1n | belgian chocolatier | 09:15 |
| xtalmath | car manufacture | 09:15 |
| xtalmath | well physics dropout | 09:15 |
| c0rw1n | trained dev for industrial embedded machines, but never worked in that | 09:16 |
| xtalmath | oh! | 09:16 |
| xtalmath | nono, I do the 'modern times' part | 09:16 |
| xtalmath | as an interim, I work for 4 months or so, then have free time the rest of the year till im broke, lather, rinse, repeat | 09:17 |
| xtalmath | I need to maximize free time for reading, learning, ... | 09:17 |
| c0rw1n | don't we all here, don't we all ... | 09:17 |
| xtalmath | trying to design a direct democracy based on formal verification | 09:18 |
| c0rw1n | nah, don't bother with democracy | 09:18 |
| xtalmath | well, if I continued my studies, I wouldn't have the time for this | 09:18 |
| xtalmath | c0rw1n: why not? | 09:18 |
| c0rw1n | democracy means wasting all the time trying to get people to agree to things. Easier to just go do things | 09:18 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: you should check out david chaum's work on the cryptography around using identifying tokens privately | 09:19 |
| andytoshi | i inexplicably don't have a link, one sec, i'll track it down.. | 09:19 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/ it's in there | 09:19 |
| xtalmath | c0rw1n: but then where will "the" law come from? | 09:19 |
| kanzure | oh, it's not. | 09:19 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: I know it | 09:20 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: oh, excellent. do you have a link you can post? | 09:20 |
| andytoshi | i last saw it before i used jotmuch i guess | 09:20 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: let me look, its here *somewhere* | 09:20 |
| kanzure | i'm up to 3632 bookmarks. i feel so behind. | 09:20 |
| andytoshi | i've got only 210 :P | 09:21 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: I think you mean this one http://math.stanford.edu/~rmbellov/writings/chaum.pdf ? | 09:22 |
| c0rw1n | xtalmath: no need for a single set of laws ... i have a model to go about implementing Archipelago over AR, that would work on cheap identities in a panoptic-but-pseudonymous world | 09:22 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: no, there's a 50+ page one somewhere that is basically a list of a bajillion things you can do with takens | 09:23 |
| c0rw1n | ( and i have to write it up cleanly some time ) | 09:23 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: oh, shit, i'm thinking of stephen brands, not chaum | 09:23 |
| xtalmath | what is archipelago? and AR is augmented reality? | 09:23 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: oh I would like to have that | 09:23 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: i'll find it, adam3us loves to post it | 09:24 |
| c0rw1n | xtalmath: http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/07/archipelago-and-atomic-communitarianism/ | 09:25 |
| c0rw1n | and yes, AR as in Augmented Reality | 09:25 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: it's http://cypherspace.org/credlib/brands-technical.pdf | 09:25 |
| andytoshi | it's really funny, i always thought adam3us was way too optimistic about the power of discrete logs, then he posted that one time | 09:26 |
| andytoshi | and like half the things in there i've claimed were impossible to do with discrete logs at some point or another | 09:26 |
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| kanzure | neat | 09:29 |
| andytoshi | (i still think he's too optimistic, but i'm less quick to say so ;)) | 09:30 |
| xtalmath | c0rw1n: the problem with that is some kid's are then forced to grow up with their non-rationalist parents | 09:34 |
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| kanzure | kids are forced to do many things | 09:35 |
| c0rw1n | that problem goes under http://lesswrong.com/lw/1e/raising_the_sanity_waterline/ | 09:35 |
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| xtalmath | c0rw1n: I am not talking about religion, but more generally belief systems | 09:38 |
| c0rw1n | that post is not talking about religion only | 09:38 |
| c0rw1n | "religion also serves the function of an asphyxiated canary in a coal mine—religion is a sign, a symptom, of larger problems that don't go away just because someone loses their religion." | 09:39 |
| xtalmath | but then how do you improve a belief like "newtonian mechanics" to "relativistic mechanics" if it is a taboo to criticize "newtonian mechanics" | 09:40 |
| xtalmath | (to refer to it "directly") | 09:40 |
| c0rw1n | i want to reply "formalizations of Occam's Razor" | 09:41 |
| xtalmath | yes! | 09:41 |
| xtalmath | formalize or fossilize | 09:41 |
| xtalmath | but then we are trying to unify observations | 09:42 |
| c0rw1n | as well we should | 09:42 |
| xtalmath | and not have seperate worlds next to each other | 09:42 |
| c0rw1n | wait | 09:42 |
| c0rw1n | no, the separate worlds are there because people have differing preferences | 09:42 |
| xtalmath | you mean compatible choices, like I want Coca cola, you want Pepsi, and that is ok? | 09:43 |
| c0rw1n | yeah | 09:43 |
| c0rw1n | but more than that | 09:43 |
| xtalmath | so you are saying democracy is flawed because it will result in endless " THE drink in the drink dispenser should be: 1) Coca 2) Pepsi" kind of votes? | 09:44 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: the differennces between newtonian and relativistic mechanics are not observable to most people, i don't think it's a failure of rationality to prefer one to the other if you aren't handed direct evidence from somebody who has done experiments | 09:44 |
| xtalmath | I claim this is easy to prevent, since most people will vote that the dispenser should have a representative distribution of brands | 09:44 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: I never claimed it was a failure of rationality? I claim one can not assume taboo to be an essential element of rationality | 09:46 |
| gradstudentbot | I haven't seen my PI in like a week. | 09:46 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: i think the point was not that taboo is necessary, but that magical thinking is such a glaring failure mode that you should be able to eliminate it even when it's taboo'd | 09:47 |
| andytoshi | it's a "steel manning" device | 09:48 |
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| kanzure | gradstudentbot: are you going to help cluckj finish writing his thesis? | 09:49 |
| gradstudentbot | I am sponsored by the Beijing Genomics Institute. | 09:49 |
| cluckj | I'm almost done | 09:50 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: I think simple observation shows that the halflife of a taboo maintaining state can be surprisingly long, furthermore taboo to criticize can be interpreted as wide support for the theory | 09:50 |
| cluckj | my first draft needs to be finished by the first week of september D: | 09:50 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: one only needs to look at the french revolution, and what the influence of the first real encyclopedia's etc were at the time | 09:51 |
| xtalmath | or the printing press to cheaply print what was taboo | 09:51 |
| cluckj | I actually logged on to see if you (still?) have a list of diy bio blogs? | 09:51 |
| kanzure | cluckj: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/groups/ and http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/news | 09:52 |
| cluckj | thanks | 09:52 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: also, how do you justify waiting for spontaneous enlightenment, if the ideology creates victims? | 09:53 |
| xtalmath | I believe in agitation | 09:54 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: it's not about 'waiting for enlightenment', it's about trying to solve a deeper problem | 09:54 |
| kanzure | c0rw1n: ask cluckj for a rant about occam's razor | 09:55 |
| cluckj | I'm writing about blogs today, mostly from Avery's, and I want to use more sources than that | 09:55 |
| cluckj | lol | 09:55 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: i'm quite concerned about what would happen if peoples' religious tendencies continued to exist and were forced to latch onto something with more agency than a god defined by dead texts | 09:56 |
| andytoshi | e.g. if they latched onto a charismatic leader who wanted to take over the world | 09:56 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: which problem is deeper, the fact that someone is slow to realize how undesirable an ideology is, or that we hold back pointing it out & acting on it? | 09:56 |
| kanzure | or a certain charismatic lab mouse | 09:56 |
| kanzure | narf | 09:56 |
| c0rw1n | LOL | 09:56 |
| andytoshi | lol kanzure | 09:57 |
| c0rw1n | cluckj: is there a link you can paste that points a version of your rant on Occam's Razor ? | 09:57 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: I'm not talking about religion, but ideology | 09:57 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: sure, i agree that if a specific ideology is causing problems it should be tackled directly | 09:57 |
| gradstudentbot | Non-binding electrons are completely useless, they should just leave. | 09:58 |
| cluckj | c0rw1n, I dunno, simplistic explanations are usually the worst kind | 09:58 |
| c0rw1n | ah ok | 09:58 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: i do not think that religion (outside of extremist groups) are causing problems on net | 09:58 |
| xtalmath | what is "net" ? | 09:58 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: in fact i think they cause people to be suspicious of gov't and other human leaders | 09:58 |
| c0rw1n | yeah no, i was meaning in the minimum message length / kolmogorov complexity sense | 09:58 |
| cluckj | me bitching about it is probably in the logs of this channel somewhere | 09:58 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: I am not talking about religion, but more generally ideology | 09:59 |
| andytoshi | sure | 09:59 |
| andytoshi | most ideologies are harmless outlets for potentially very harmful brain failure modes | 09:59 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: I have no problem with people being suspicious or paranoid, it is a healthy state of mind | 09:59 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: you'd be amazed how simple mundane ideologies create conflicts of interest that create victims? | 10:00 |
| c0rw1n | ideologies should ideally be universalizable... basically, any that is not, is evil | 10:00 |
| cluckj | ideology killed my dog | 10:00 |
| xtalmath | c0rw1n: what do you mean with universalizable? | 10:01 |
| cluckj | ideology wouldn't be ideology if it were universalizable | 10:02 |
| andytoshi | xtalmath: sure, but how many victims and to what extent? do you mean like immigrants having a harder time finding work? compare to e.g. communism in the soviet union | 10:02 |
| xtalmath | I still don't know what you mean with universalizable, what I mean with ideology is generally any boolean expression believed to be true | 10:03 |
| c0rw1n | that they're hmm dunno what that means already but "agent-neutral", that the holder of the ideology could be put in the position of interacting with something that has the same ideology, while they'd be holding an incompatible one, and suffer no disutility | 10:03 |
| andytoshi | i think that people are gonna latch onto weird ideologies in the absense of good rationality training; then it's good to think in terms of opportunity costs as far as which ones you attack | 10:03 |
| c0rw1n | all of them, with rationality training, duh | 10:04 |
| cluckj | what constitutes "good rationality training" is a fuckin' ideology | 10:04 |
| c0rw1n | why whack-the-mole | 10:04 |
| xtalmath | andytoshi: I agree totally with the rationality training, which is why I am programming an educational learning/testing/proctoring "game/graphical interface" for arbitrary belief systems, based on MetaMath, and its database as an initial belief system | 10:05 |
| xtalmath | in this way it is neutral to belief system, and you can verify if conclusions follow from someone else's belief system before even learning/reading it | 10:06 |
| xtalmath | also, you can inspect their belief system and find a contradiction, as soon as you find one you can prove true=false and every statement in their belief system is useless. you can publish this proof to the rest so that no one will take their belief system serious until the relevant conflicting axioms are dropped | 10:07 |
| cluckj | oh boy | 10:07 |
| xtalmath | (at the expense of having to drop the conclusions that relied on them as well) | 10:08 |
| xtalmath | formalize or fossilize ;) | 10:08 |
| cluckj | there's literally nothing to do with humans that is internally consistent | 10:13 |
| xtalmath | there's literally been no serious attempt to unify belief systems | 10:13 |
| cluckj | successful one, anyway | 10:14 |
| xtalmath | in my view, the only serious attempts have been proof checkers, and their currently minimal contents | 10:15 |
| cluckj | yes...in very, very, very, closed sets and limited frames of reference | 10:15 |
| cluckj | but even then, not really | 10:16 |
| gradstudentbot | Don't phage me, bro. | 10:16 |
| cluckj | thanks gradstudentbot | 10:16 |
| gradstudentbot | The grant got rejected. | 10:16 |
| xtalmath | nobody wants to do the work of formalization (translation from vague words), so a reward structure would have to be put up for translating texts into machine verifiable theorems, and rewards for people to locate contradictions... | 10:16 |
| xtalmath | oh, have to go out and meet some people | 10:18 |
| cluckj | o_O | 10:19 |
| cluckj | even logic isn't internally consistent like that | 10:19 |
| xtalmath | cluckj: ? not sure what you refer to? do you know MetaMath? | 10:19 |
| xtalmath | the software, not the stream of philosophy | 10:20 |
| xtalmath | it is a proof checker | 10:20 |
| cluckj | I know of it? | 10:21 |
| cluckj | maybe I'm not sure what you mean | 10:21 |
| c0rw1n | i think he's saying "but, but, Gödel inconsistency thing" | 10:22 |
| cluckj | c0rw1n, probably | 10:23 |
| cluckj | if he is me | 10:23 |
| c0rw1n | yes | 10:23 |
| cluckj | I've also seen professional logicians try to axiomize ethical (belief) systems | 10:23 |
| c0rw1n | lol | 10:24 |
| xtalmath | so what if our belief system were incomplete? as long as its consistent | 10:25 |
| cluckj | in order to be consistent, it has to be complete | 10:26 |
| cluckj | and to be complete, it has to be very limited | 10:26 |
| cluckj | I mean, this is also getting at why occam's razor is terrible and people should quit using it | 10:27 |
| c0rw1n | hmm | 10:27 |
| xtalmath | cluckj: I think you don't really understand godel's theorem | 10:27 |
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| c0rw1n | there are inconsistencies in the stupider belief systems, that really don't need to go back to something as abstract as the incompleteness theorem to detect and thereby invalidate the whole structure | 10:28 |
| cluckj | c0rw1n, lol | 10:28 |
| cluckj | do you mean the structure, or the contents of the belief system? | 10:30 |
| c0rw1n | oh, invalidate the content | 10:31 |
| c0rw1n | yeah | 10:31 |
| cluckj | :) | 10:31 |
| cluckj | I'm sad/not sad that he left | 10:32 |
| cluckj | I usually love harassing cryptofascists | 10:33 |
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| cluckj | what I mean is that if the system you're using to judge other systems is just as shaky as the ones you're judging with it, it forms a nice tautology | 10:44 |
| cluckj | which kinda defeats the purpose of doing it in the first place? | 10:46 |
| cluckj | tl;dr, don't be a dick about other people's belief systems because they're logically inconsistent | 10:46 |
| cluckj | it's much much better to be a dick for pragmatic reasons | 10:46 |
| cluckj | e.g., "your belief system includes justification for genocide" | 10:47 |
| c0rw1n | oh, that one I resolve with "if you were on the other side of your belief system you'd get killed" | 10:50 |
| c0rw1n | *that's* my universalizability | 10:51 |
| gradstudentbot | I feel like you don't completely comprehend the scope of this work. | 10:51 |
| cluckj | that's not really about the internal logic though | 10:51 |
| cluckj | that seems to be about "not getting murdered" | 10:52 |
| c0rw1n | well since internal logic is unreachable anyway, the "not getting murdered" heuristic sounds like pretty good criterion to me | 10:55 |
| cluckj | I agree | 10:56 |
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| cluckj | bbl, time to write now that I've read like 8 blogs | 11:21 |
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| * fenn thinks cluckj doesn't know what a fascist is or what godel's theorem implies | 11:59 | |
| kanzure | hmm page 47 http://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf | 12:02 |
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| kanzure | or figure 19 on the next page | 12:04 |
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| kanzure | converting all of this into an implementation is going to be ugh | 12:06 |
| __mz_o | what are you trying to implement? | 12:10 |
| kanzure | haven't started | 12:11 |
| kanzure | it's just lightning network stuff | 12:11 |
| gradstudentbot | It's a social construct. | 12:12 |
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| drethelin | YOUR MOM IS A SOCIAL CONSTRUCT. | 12:27 |
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| ParahSailin_ | how did the chinese know that cockroach and mantis are related before dna | 13:53 |
| ParahSailin_ | or is that pretty obvious from anatomy? | 13:54 |
| drethelin | lots of historical people have had coincidentally correct ideas on taxonomy | 13:57 |
| kanzure | https://media.defcon.org/DEF%20CON%2023/DEF%20CON%2023%20presentations/Speaker%20&%20Workshop%20Materials/ | 14:14 |
| kanzure | http://blog.mindedsecurity.com/2015/08/pdf-based-polyglots-through-svg-images.html | 14:14 |
| drethelin | https://twitter.com/lunalindsey/status/630487154469146624/photo/1 | 14:16 |
| kanzure | many things can kill you | 14:18 |
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| drethelin | not guns though | 14:23 |
| kanzure | drethelin: you know about gene guns, right? | 14:24 |
| drethelin | are those covered in gun rights debates? | 14:25 |
| drethelin | now I really want a bumper sticker | 14:25 |
| drethelin | "You can take my Gene Gun when you pry it from my mutated fingers" | 14:25 |
| kanzure | they aren't covered in gun debates...... yet. | 14:25 |
| drethelin | though really you wouldn't use a gene gun ona human | 14:25 |
| kanzure | but the nra has a generous grant program | 14:25 |
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| cluckj | fenn, do too | 14:53 |
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| kanzure | .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10031725 | 16:56 |
| yoleaux | Scientists have synthesized a new compound that ‘mimics’ exercise | Hacker News | 16:56 |
| yashgaroth | http://www.cell.com/chemistry-biology/pdfExtended/S1074-5521(15)00234-3 since wapo is too lazy to link the article | 17:18 |
| gradstudentbot | There's no way to know for sure. | 17:21 |
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| kanzure | .title http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=146743673&pagenumber=1 | 19:07 |
| yoleaux | Exercise in a Pill (PPARδ and AMPK agonists) supplement simulation - Bodybuilding.com Forums | 19:07 |
| drethelin | that's been around for a while but I haven't heard anything actually come of it | 19:11 |
| drethelin | iirc I heard of it in echopraxia | 19:11 |
| kanzure | star wars 7 concept art leak http://imgur.com/a/uRMnN | 19:12 |
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| kanzure | beep bloop | 21:51 |
| kanzure | fine be that way | 22:01 |
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| --- Log closed Mon Aug 10 00:00:36 2015 | ||
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