| --- Log opened Wed Dec 09 00:00:32 2015 | ||
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| poppingtonic | http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nbt.3439.html | 02:33 |
|---|---|---|
| poppingtonic | .title | 02:33 |
| poppingtonic | .title http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nbt.3439.html | 02:33 |
| yoleaux | A CRISPR-Cas9 gene drive system targeting female reproduction in the malaria mosquito vector Anopheles gambiae : Nature Biotechnology : Nature Publishing Group | 02:33 |
| yoleaux | A CRISPR-Cas9 gene drive system targeting female reproduction in the malaria mosquito vector Anopheles gambiae : Nature Biotechnology : Nature Publishing Group | 02:33 |
| poppingtonic | derp | 02:33 |
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| FourFire | kanzure, what kinds of automated quality assurance of scientific papers have you come across? | 05:13 |
| FourFire | at the very least, I could imagine dumping text through a parser which sees the most common word patterns which appear in crap papers but not so much in decent work | 05:14 |
| FourFire | false positives though... | 05:14 |
| pasky_ | idk, about satoshi, it was pretty clear while reading the article that it's a fraud, but clearly wright put a lot of effort in it, especially also considering that surreal/weird/awful kleiman business, so i found the article a fun read nevertheless, just on the account of describing that - it's nice to see people actually try when faking stuff rather than just doing something low-effort ;) | 05:23 |
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| pasky_ | about the raid, well, really - either the guy is SN, or he wants everyone to believe he is SN, so I don't see why are guys faulting gwern with possibly implicating him "unfairly" - this is totally different from the sad dorian case | 05:25 |
| poppingtonic | FourFire: what level of accuracy would you like? 99% certainty that <paper> is crap? Are topic modeling algorithms like Latent Dirichlet Allocation good enough to support that? | 05:25 |
| poppingtonic | btw, that's the state-of-the-art in unsupervised topic modelling so far. | 05:26 |
| FourFire | poppingtonic, well you want to spend time reading the crap of the cop papers, so, better than 60% probability of it being crap is filter enough at first. | 05:35 |
| FourFire | also I don't know anything about existing approaches, which why I am asking. | 05:35 |
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| pasky_ | FourFire: in what field are you reading papers so that it's not easy to distinguish them at a glance? | 05:41 |
| FourFire | umm I'm not sure why I wrote what I did above | 05:41 |
| FourFire | >You want to read the cream of the crop of papers, time is money. | 05:41 |
| pasky_ | when I fail at distinguishing them "at a glance", it turns out they are crap only after pretty detailed analysis of results & methods (e.g. they subsample in a clever way or there's an important "but" in the eventual applicability) | 05:43 |
| FourFire | pasky_, from #bioinformatics > "its kind of lame how much work just gets lost in the wash now, because there are just so many papers" | 05:43 |
| pasky_ | oh right; i was just going to suggest to just read cited papers :) | 05:44 |
| pasky_ | but that doesn't help this | 05:44 |
| FourFire | also, I don't know much about which constitues a crap paper, so it would help for me, personally, and others like me to have a decent source of papers to read. | 05:45 |
| pasky_ | the traditional way this is solved in scientific community is peer review | 05:45 |
| pasky_ | and it's still done, you know :) | 05:45 |
| pasky_ | so just isntead of reading everything on arxiv, a start would be to read proceedings of top conferences, or journals | 05:46 |
| FourFire | what's the fastest way to familiarize onself with the scientific community in general, see how things are done (tm) and such? | 05:47 |
| pasky_ | of coruse there's plenty of false positives+negatives anyway, but it isn't a bad approximation | 05:47 |
| pasky_ | pick a problem to work on and start reading the fundamental papers and participating in discussion groups that researchers frequent | 05:47 |
| pasky_ | at least that's how i did it when i started participating in that (wrt. computer go) | 05:48 |
| poppingtonic | FourFire: Edited volumes are key. From lukeprog (researcher at GiveWell): "If the field is large enough, there may exist an edited 'Handbook' on the subject, which is basically just a very large scholarly edited volume of review articles" | 05:48 |
| poppingtonic | .title http://lesswrong.com/lw/5me/scholarship_how_to_do_it_efficiently/ | 05:48 |
| yoleaux | Scholarship: How to Do It Efficiently - Less Wrong | 05:48 |
| poppingtonic | textbooks + review articles + edited journals | 05:49 |
| pasky_ | it depends on exactly what you want to work on; if it's large enough and not *too* fast-moving, poppingtonic's suggestion is great; i guess mine was colored by the fact that i never seem to work in the large fields for whatever reason | 05:50 |
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| JayDugger | Gwern's G+ post on the subject, he claims he donated $3000 from WIRED to an anti-malarial charity, IIRC. | 06:21 |
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| Aurelius_Work | AMF | 06:36 |
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| fenn | i retract my statement that gwern shouldn't have doxxed craig wright, on actually reading both articles it's clear he was literally asking for it | 07:03 |
| fenn | i didn't have full information at the time i said that | 07:03 |
| fenn | but if gwern believed that it was actually satoshi nakamoto, he shouldn't have doxxed him for the reasons stated | 07:05 |
| fenn | but gwern shouldn't have believed it was satoshi nakamoto because of the glaring discrepancies, key metadata errors, writing style differences, and general fakability of the existing evidence | 07:06 |
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| fenn | fakeability*(?) | 07:07 |
| xentrac | do you suppose he faked the pencil thing too? | 07:08 |
| fenn | no i'm sure he has an actual life doing stuff like building supercomputers and convincing people to throw millions of dollars at him | 07:09 |
| fenn | i mean the pencil thing is totally plausible | 07:09 |
| fenn | i haven't looked at the blog | 07:09 |
| xentrac | it seemed totally plausible to me too but I would have liked more recipes and photos | 07:09 |
| xentrac | being able to automatically fabricate a pencil from raw materials would be a terrific milestone for automated fabrication | 07:10 |
| fenn | i think this was more like the toaster project in spirit | 07:10 |
| xentrac | like, a demonstration that the potentials in the world economy had changed | 07:10 |
| xentrac | yeah | 07:10 |
| xentrac | but more competent I think | 07:10 |
| xentrac | the thing is, Thwaites did a superb bang-up job of documenting his process so that people could understand, even if he e.g. made bad choices of materials | 07:11 |
| fenn | wasn't it his doctoral thesis or something? | 07:11 |
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| xentrac | maybe, could be | 07:11 |
| xentrac | actually the graphite ceramic Wright cooked up for his pencil could have made Thwaites' toaster viable | 07:12 |
| fenn | thwaites links to this essay, "I, pencil" http://www.econlib.org/library/Essays/rdPncl1.html | 07:12 |
| xentrac | yeah, I think that's what inspired Wright too | 07:13 |
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| kanzure | "Parent comment by kanzure dated 2015-12-09 01:24:30 UTC contains what could be reasonably interpreted as a death threat. Quoted to create an enduring record in case the comment is edited. Kanzure, you should probably step back and reconsider what you're doing here." | 07:48 |
| kanzure | .tw https://twitter.com/SilverVVulpes/status/643474990290092032 | 07:50 |
| yoleaux | I'm just sayin', everyone that confuses correlation with causation eventually ends up dead. (@SilverVVulpes) | 07:50 |
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| kanzure | fenn: "he was asking for it" is not a good reason. | 07:51 |
| fenn | no, on reflection, it's not a good reason at all | 07:51 |
| eudoxia | "death threat" lmao is this guy serious | 07:52 |
| kanzure | FourFire: for automated quality assurance, see coq | 07:52 |
| fenn | what is the supposed "death threat"? | 07:52 |
| Stskeeps | what bothers me is that nobody considers the person we see today, might be the result is crippling mental illness, having been much more lucid before, though. :P | 07:52 |
| xentrac | kanzure: url? | 07:52 |
| xentrac | Stskeeps: do you mean Gwern? | 07:52 |
| Stskeeps | no, the whole 'this guy is the bitcoin inventor' | 07:52 |
| xentrac | do you mean Craig? | 07:53 |
| Stskeeps | nod | 07:53 |
| xentrac | you can simultaneously have crippling mental illness and be quite lucid | 07:53 |
| kanzure | FourFire: most people overestimate the cost of reading everything. it sounds like a lot of work so they estimate it as being impossible. however, there's really only ~55 million papers. | 07:53 |
| fenn | .g convert 55 million hours to years | 07:53 |
| yoleaux | http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/286817-32-million-hours-life | 07:53 |
| fenn | hmm how is this supposed to work | 07:54 |
| fenn | ~6000 years 24/7 reading | 07:54 |
| fenn | sounds pretty impossible, especially since the number is growing faster than real time | 07:54 |
| xentrac | depressed people and psychopaths, for example, are generally considered to have "crippling mental illness" but they think somewhat more clearly than the typical "normal" person | 07:54 |
| kanzure | xentrac: url is https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3vzgnd/bitcoins_creator_satoshi_nakamoto_is_probably/cxsa9hs | 07:55 |
| kanzure | re: lucidity, isn't that some kind of mental illness of its own or something | 07:55 |
| fenn | oh i see how "gwern's gonna get doxxed and left for dead" could be interpreted as a death threat. you should probably edit that | 07:56 |
| kanzure | ironically, that's already the edited version | 07:56 |
| kanzure | that *is* the toned-down version | 07:57 |
| * archels doesn't see it, but probably ought to stay out of the discussion | 07:57 | |
| kanzure | "paying people to cry wolf" https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3w07lq/blockchain_scale_tests_by_alleged_satoshi_340_gb/cxs9t63 | 07:57 |
| archels | it could be interpreted as a friendly alert on a potential course of events, even | 07:58 |
| kanzure | "This is really interesting. I mean this supercomputer exists. Some things are weird. But this guy does have some knowledge. And resources. I'm utterly confused." | 07:58 |
| kanzure | archels: that was my intention. | 07:58 |
| xentrac | it could be interpreted as a death threat carefully cloaked in enough plausible deniability as a friendly alert, too | 07:59 |
| kanzure | gmaxwell tries to use reasoning and probability to talk to redditors (wat why?) https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3w07lq/blockchain_scale_tests_by_alleged_satoshi_340_gb/cxsbbjg | 08:00 |
| kanzure | 02:46 <+sbp> kanzure: I sent this to gwern: | 08:04 |
| kanzure | 02:46 <+sbp> — | 08:04 |
| kanzure | 02:46 <+sbp> 10:36:15 <sbp> hey. I know you're probably getting a lot of messages about this | 08:04 |
| kanzure | 02:46 <+sbp> 10:36:21 <sbp> https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/2644014/Tulip-Trust-Redacted.txt | 08:04 |
| kanzure | 02:46 <+sbp> 10:37:00 <sbp> I just thought I'd point out that I applied nullc's test to key C941FE6D in there | 08:04 |
| kanzure | 02:46 <+sbp> 10:37:13 <sbp> $ gpg --export C941FE6D | gpg --list-packets - | grep pref-hash | 08:04 |
| kanzure | 02:46 <+sbp> 10:37:13 <sbp> hashed subpkt 21 len 5 (pref-hash-algos: 8 2 9 10 11) | 08:04 |
| kanzure | 02:46 <+sbp> 10:38:33 <sbp> the date in the key is 2008-12-16, so this one has likely been backdated too | 08:04 |
| kanzure | 02:46 <+sbp> 10:38:49 <sbp> I also tested the key in https://archive.is/HWfzH and it's the same deal | 08:04 |
| kanzure | 02:46 <+sbp> — | 08:04 |
| fenn | which key was C941FE6D again? | 08:06 |
| kanzure | it was from http://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?search=satoshi@vistomail.com&op=index | 08:09 |
| fenn | what is 5EC948A1 then? | 08:10 |
| kanzure | that is a good question | 08:10 |
| kanzure | .tw https://twitter.com/midmagic/status/674514614772563968 | 08:11 |
| yoleaux | #bitcoin Satoshi Nakamoto: In Feb 2012 keys NOT in the global SKS key set: 1F556274 E545EB7B E23FCC2D CDD2C21C C941FE6D 5EB7CB21 0F7BD4AD (@midmagic) | 08:11 |
| kanzure | hi midnightmagic | 08:12 |
| fenn | so C941FE6D is just a faked key | 08:12 |
| fenn | unless satoshi@vistomail.com is actually a time traveler | 08:12 |
| chris_99 | heh | 08:13 |
| poppingtonic | .wa convert 55 million hours to years | 08:15 |
| yoleaux | convert 55000000 hours to years: 6279 years; Additional conversions: 62.74 average Gregorian centuries; 6.274 average Gregorian millennia; 1.98×10¹¹ seconds; Comparisons as time: ~0.3 × time since the last glacial maximum (~20000 yr); ~220 × generation (~28 yr); Comparison as age: ~1.3 × age of the oldest living organism on Earth (bristlecone pine) (~4700 yr); Comparisons as half‐life: ~(0.083 ~1/12) × half-life of nickel-59 (2 | 08:15 |
| yoleaux | .3968×10¹² s) | 08:15 |
| fenn | also i must point out that za3k and richard made an excellent presentation on how to generate fake keys for arbitrary 32 bit PGP fingerprints | 08:15 |
| eudoxia | .wa 55 million hours in gigaseconds | 08:15 |
| yoleaux | convert 55000000 hours to gigaseconds: 198 Gs (gigaseconds); Additional conversions: 1.98×10¹¹ seconds; 6274 average Gregorian years; 62.74 average Gregorian centuries; 6.274 average Gregorian millennia; Comparisons as time: ~0.3 × time since the last glacial maximum (~20000 yr); ~220 × generation (~28 yr); Comparison as age: ~1.3 × age of the oldest living organism on Earth (bristlecone pine) (~4700 yr) | 08:15 |
| fenn | ugh i wish wolfram didn't return so much crap with each query | 08:16 |
| poppingtonic | If there was a way, yoleaux would still need to be configured. Doesn't wolfram return a json object? | 08:19 |
| eudoxia | i doubt it | 08:20 |
| kanzure | fenn: could you link to that presentation? | 08:20 |
| eudoxia | stephen wolfram has probably written his own IPC protocol and forced everyone to use it | 08:21 |
| kanzure | wolframalpha probably returns something completely evil, like a lisp-mathjax object hybrid | 08:21 |
| eudoxia | "it's like json only it's the seed of a cellular automaton and the number of generations you need to run it for to get the data" | 08:21 |
| eudoxia | "the data is in TeX btw" | 08:21 |
| kanzure | "also, i invented it. twice." | 08:22 |
| fenn | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LZhFFm1tK0 | 08:22 |
| yoleaux | DEF CON 22 - Richard Klafter (Free) and Eric Swanson (Lachesis) - Check Your Fingerprints - YouTube | 08:22 |
| fenn | https://defcon.org/images/defcon-22/dc-22-presentations/Klafter-Swanson/DEFCON-22-Richard-Klafter-and-Eric-Swanson-Check-Your-Fingerprints-Cloning-the-Strong-Set.pdf | 08:23 |
| fenn | sorry it was eric, not za3k | 08:23 |
| fenn | also https://evil32.com/ | 08:24 |
| fenn | o | 08:25 |
| fenn | i'm not sure if it's relevant because the full PGP block is on craig wright's page (?) | 08:25 |
| fenn | and presumably someone has the full block for the actual satoshi@vistomail.com | 08:26 |
| kanzure | "bitcoin needs a leader like a fish needs a bicycle" http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37vg8y/is_the_blockstream_company_the_reason_why_4_core/crqnnni | 08:26 |
| xentrac | eudoxia: I'd think Wolfram would pay someone else to write an IPC protocol, put his name on it, and sue them if they tried to reveal it | 08:29 |
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| fenn | ah i was using words wrong, the "fingerprint" is a longer string than a 32 bit suffix | 08:35 |
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| fenn | "scallion runs on any modern GPU, old bitcoin hardware is prime" not at all surprising because hash suffix collisions is exactly how bitcoin mining works | 08:43 |
| fenn | heh it even says in the presentation "Upload arbitrary data to keyserver (Satoshi's key)" | 08:46 |
| fenn | which is 0x18C09E865EC948A1 (mentioned above) | 08:48 |
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| kanzure | i have used scallion | 08:53 |
| fenn | http://cryptome.org/2015/11/satoshi-nakamoto-public-key.htm | 08:53 |
| fenn | more bits | 08:53 |
| xentrac | scallions are tasty | 08:54 |
| fenn | it might be possible to fake even a specific 64 bit key ID if you personally own the #17 supercomputer | 08:55 |
| fenn | (craig wright probably also has access to lots of old bitcoin mining hardware which is even better for this task) | 08:55 |
| kanzure | i think i was using scallion to grind/mine on tor hidden service names | 08:55 |
| superkuh | It's how I found mine. | 08:56 |
| kanzure | something about "timeportal.onion" | 08:56 |
| superkuh | superkuhbitj6tul.onion | 08:56 |
| kanzure | did you just get lucky with "bit"? | 08:56 |
| fenn | it's the machine elves speaking to us | 08:56 |
| fenn | with their super qu-bit computers | 08:57 |
| superkuh | Yes. But by then I had been running it 2 days. | 08:57 |
| superkuh | Looking for lucky strikes. | 08:57 |
| kanzure | isn't that cheating | 08:57 |
| fenn | of course it's cheating | 08:57 |
| fenn | i don't get why satoshi's public key block was only published in november 2015? | 08:59 |
| fenn | shouldn't that be all over the internet by now? | 08:59 |
| fenn | .title https://github.com/pmlaw/The-Bitcoin-Foundation-Legal-Repo/commit/fb70771a9927e04ebe5ae33c46ba6589a9703e40 | 09:01 |
| yoleaux | Reference Satoshi's PGP key by full fingerprint · pmlaw/The-Bitcoin-Foundation-Legal-Repo@fb70771 · GitHub | 09:01 |
| kanzure | there is no evidence that satoshi nakamoto ever had a public key | 09:01 |
| kanzure | however, this is the key most widely known as "the satoshi key" http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin-satoshi/satoshinakamoto.asc | 09:01 |
| fenn | why is it known as "the satoshi key" then? | 09:02 |
| kanzure | because it's been on bitcoin.org since 2012ish | 09:02 |
| kanzure | possibly earlier | 09:02 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/*/https://bitcoin.org/SatoshiNakamoto.asc | 09:02 |
| kanzure | uh.. 2013. hm. | 09:02 |
| kanzure | anyway, satoshi never signed anything in public, so this is all sort of moot | 09:03 |
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| fenn | his emails were never signed? | 09:07 |
| kanzure | never ever | 09:07 |
| atomical | That Satoshi Nakamoto guy doesn't know shit about safety razor blades. I read the Amazon reviews. | 09:17 |
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| Church- | Hmm, I don't remember saying that about Kurzwell... guess my mind must be going. | 09:21 |
| fenn | is this our previous sponsor and founder of church's chicken, doctor george church? | 09:23 |
| kanzure | Church-: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfTqXL0d9Ls&t=1m58s | 09:23 |
| kanzure | oops wrong link | 09:23 |
| kanzure | Church-: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_zzFRjeGRI&t=2m10s | 09:23 |
| Church- | fenn: Correct, also the creator of Church encodings, and the lambda calculii. | 09:24 |
| Church- | kanzure: Hmm, interesting. Danke | 09:24 |
| kanzure | Church-: btw we have been missing the last few checks that you had written for us, i was wondering if you could take care of that? | 09:25 |
| Church- | kanzure: Well, an embezzlement here and there. You know how it goes,. | 09:26 |
| kanzure | huh? | 09:26 |
| Church- | The checks weren't written, I'm keeping the money. | 09:29 |
| Church- | augur: Yello | 09:29 |
| augur | oh god its Church- | 09:29 |
| augur | great basilisk what have i done to deserve this! | 09:29 |
| kanzure | i'll ban him if he's annoying, so don't worry | 09:29 |
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| augur | did you know that a Church Encoding is a pre-applied fold/reduce? | 09:30 |
| augur | its true! | 09:30 |
| Church- | Really? Interesting. | 09:30 |
| augur | and Scott Encodings are the pre-applied case function! | 09:30 |
| kanzure | augur: how do you know him? | 09:30 |
| Church- | Couple of channels. | 09:30 |
| augur | kanzure: im just joking :p | 09:30 |
| kanzure | so you don't know him? | 09:30 |
| augur | we're friends, from #reddit-cyberpunk mostly | 09:30 |
| kanzure | so you do. | 09:30 |
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| kanzure | very confusing | 09:31 |
| Church- | Quite. | 09:31 |
| augur | i do know him, i was joking about the torment | 09:31 |
| Church- | Hmm, think I should sit down with a book on the calculii this weekend. | 09:31 |
| augur | Church-: i can teach you! | 09:31 |
| Church- | Hmm, I'll accept that teaching. | 09:39 |
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| maaku | fenn: as far as I'm aware, somebody uploaded a key to the mit PGP keyserver a long time ago, longer than anyone involved with bitcoin can remember | 09:42 |
| maaku | that is, as far as I know, the only indication at all that Satoshi even used PGP | 09:43 |
| fenn | good enough for me | 09:43 |
| maaku | nothing ever signed, those keys never used | 09:44 |
| kanzure | uploading a pgp key for satoshi is a pretty clever move if it wasn't satoshi's key | 09:44 |
| kanzure | i could imagine a cypherpunk having the foresight to do that in 2010ish | 09:44 |
| maaku | as far as we know he probably generated the keys just prior to the launch (at the timestamp indicated in the keys), then for whatever reason decided not to use them | 09:44 |
| kanzure | well, one could argue he was using them to receive bug reports | 09:45 |
| maaku | this is also true. i probably would have done that in his position | 09:45 |
| kanzure | since you don't want those flying over the plaintext interwebs. | 09:45 |
| maaku | have something available to be sent to | 09:45 |
| kanzure | btw thanks for the kind remarks re: how my statement wasn't actually a death threat. | 09:46 |
| kanzure | ironically, that version of the sentence in my comment was *already* the toned-down version :D | 09:46 |
| atomical | is it really ironic? | 09:49 |
| kanzure | yes, it's ironic because the person was saying "i am commenting and quoting this statement in case kanzure decides to edit it" | 09:57 |
| kanzure | the irony is that i have already edited it before he quoted the statement | 09:57 |
| kanzure | this is an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result | 09:57 |
| FourFire | fenn, right, and I have, maybe 2 hours I can spend on solid reading per day | 10:04 |
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| kanzure | yeah but you don't have to read every single detail; a lot of stuff is fairly expected and can be safely skipped by glancing at the page instead of analyzing every curve of every sans serif heiroglyphic barfing instigator | 10:06 |
| kanzure | and also, review papers often summarize huge chunks of existing literature | 10:07 |
| fenn | yes reviews are good | 10:18 |
| fenn | but that doesn't solve the problem of "what's new AND good" | 10:19 |
| fenn | we're just going to have to rely on manual filtering/curating until there's good enough AGI to basically construct scientific experiments on its own | 10:20 |
| fenn | and also understand english prose | 10:20 |
| fenn | and connect the two skills somehow | 10:20 |
| fenn | some sort of echo chamber like tumblr might work for keeping current in a specific field | 10:22 |
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| kanzure | a lot of the theoretical modeling and speculation and roadmapping stuff is sort of not published, except as single sentences at the end of papers about "future directions" | 10:28 |
| kanzure | because nobody wants to get scooped | 10:28 |
| kanzure | and thinking about good hypotheses and enumerating them, doesn't always look like work | 10:28 |
| fenn | sure, currently "published" papers are 6 months behind conference posters and preprints circulated via email | 10:35 |
| fenn | but that's just an artifact of how terrible the publishing and peer review process is | 10:35 |
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| kanzure | well what i would expect to see in the scientific literature if i was to go look, would be something like "100 alternative explanations for the molecular basis of memory", but instead i just find like <5 which is somewhat absurd in my opinion. there are so many different things i could imagine, and i'm surprised that others aren't spending time writing them down...... | 10:55 |
| kanzure | huh, these days in the logs are sort of absent? http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-01-12.log http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-01-13.log http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-01-14.log http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-01-15.log and 2009-01-16 is missing... 17 looks weird; 18 looks slightly better... hm. | 11:12 |
| kanzure | 23:56 < genehacker> hey the dollar is the best thing we have until wuffie | 11:14 |
| kanzure | 23:57 < fenn> genehacker: why can't we do whuffie now? | 11:14 |
| kanzure | 23:57 < kanzure3> why can't we do no money now? | 11:14 |
| kanzure | 23:57 < fenn> http://bitchun.org/ | 11:14 |
| kanzure | 23:57 < kanzure3> http://bitcoin.org/ | 11:14 |
| kanzure | 23:57 < fenn> hrm seems bitchun went downhill | 11:14 |
| kanzure | 23:58 < genehacker> kanzure you can't get free energy, you can however steal energy from other universes | 11:14 |
| kanzure | i guess that's how genehacker was planning to do bitcoin mining back in 2009-01-11 | 11:15 |
| kanzure | huh, you know, looking back at that, i can't help but notice ryan fugger's name in the bottom right hand side of the screenshot http://web.archive.org/web/20071020051709/http://bitchun.org/ | 11:16 |
| kanzure | maaku: ^ | 11:16 |
| fenn | i think bitchun was just a terrible hack of using your number of twitter followers as whuffie/money | 11:18 |
| kanzure | strange, the link goes to krotty.livejournal.com, and fenn you linked to that livejournal back in 2008 | 11:20 |
| kanzure | (about the optimus keyboard) | 11:20 |
| kanzure | that may have been vinay gupta's blog ??? | 11:20 |
| fenn | optimus was designed by art lebedev studio | 11:20 |
| fenn | it wouldn't surprise me if it were gupta's blog | 11:21 |
| kanzure | http://gnusha.org/logs/2008-07-26.log | 11:21 |
| fenn | krotty.livejournal.com - Joseph Petviashvili's Live Journal | 11:21 |
| kanzure | oh. | 11:21 |
| kanzure | and that's the bitchun.org owner. so that makes more sense. | 11:21 |
| fenn | "In early summer '06 Joe quit his job to devote himself to the concept full time. In late August the first breakthrough came about. Joe came across an article by Donella Meadows a renowned Systems Analyst; that article is 'Places to Intervene in a System'" | 11:23 |
| fenn | donella meadows sounds familiar too | 11:23 |
| fenn | maybe just that stupid club of rome report | 11:24 |
| fenn | "limits to growth" | 11:24 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_leverage_points looks like basic cybernetic theory | 11:25 |
| fenn | where did the idea of whuffie actually come from? "a peer to peer information exchange network encompassing a respect based currency awarded to people as people help people" | 11:28 |
| fenn | surely doctorow didn't actually invent this | 11:29 |
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| kanzure | maaku: this seems like something you would know | 11:33 |
| kanzure | "Hey, Kanzure. I've been bouncing Satoshi theories off gwern for a couple years now. I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that he was genuine when he told me he had no desire to publicly reveal Satoshi should his research bare fruit. I don't think we have the full side of his story so I'll reserve my judgment for now. Anyway, after reading your reddit and hackernews responses to gwern's story, I was curious to know if you participate in any ... | 11:34 |
| kanzure | ... trusted groups that responsibly research the subject. gwern had mentioned your name when I inquired about a better archive of the Extotpians mailing list but I regretfully never reached out to you. I should also add that I'm just a Bitcoin junkie and that I'm not interested in revealing any information to the public that hasn't already been revealed. Thanks." | 11:34 |
| fenn | the truth is you're terrible at security :P | 11:35 |
| kanzure | hm? | 11:35 |
| kanzure | what exactly have i claimed was secure? | 11:36 |
| kanzure | also, you have lots of evidence that i have deep knowledge in reverse engineering and breaking stuff. not sure why you are so quick to call that terrible :-). | 11:37 |
| fenn | i mean in terms of keeping information confidential | 11:39 |
| fenn | i'm not sure this is a bad thing | 11:39 |
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| kanzure | and also, for some strange reason that i can't articulate, i seem to be capable of explaining why bitcoin seems to work. bizarre stuff. | 11:41 |
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| fenn | maybe whuffie was based on slashdot karma | 11:42 |
| kanzure | wasn't there some fictional thingy that it was sourced from | 11:44 |
| kanzure | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whuffie#Similarities_to_other_stories | 11:47 |
| kanzure | http://motherboard.vice.com/read/satoshis-pgp-keys-are-probably-backdated-and-point-to-a-hoax | 11:54 |
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| fenn | "the Original Key belonged to Satoshi, if it is even epistemologically possible to know anything about Bitcoin at this point." | 12:03 |
| fenn | duuude | 12:03 |
| fenn | what if we're, like, all just simulated code trying to crack bitcoin keys, man | 12:03 |
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| kanzure | that's a really surprising quote to find in a news article | 12:06 |
| kanzure | have i fallen into some strange alternate reality where journalists know about epistemology? | 12:06 |
| fenn | well this is a journalism-cricitism article | 12:07 |
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| FourFire | Hey, does anyone know the current annual increase in expected lifespan (bonus points if it excludes child mortality stats) ? | 12:11 |
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| FourFire | Average, western world, or specific countries, doesn't matter. | 12:11 |
| kanzure | kuudes probably knows this. | 12:12 |
| TMA | FourFire: it should be easy-ish to compute if you have a time series of mortality tables [mortality tables are very useful and hard to come by] | 12:15 |
| fenn | The age-adjusted death rate for the United States decreased 1.1% from 2011 to 2012 to a record low of 732.8 per 100,000 standard population. | 12:17 |
| fenn | i haven't looked at these but it's probably a good place to start: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/life-expectancy.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#External_links | 12:18 |
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| kanzure | cdc should be putting out death forecasts so that we know who the hell to talk with in the next week before they fucking die | 12:20 |
| fenn | a death note? | 12:20 |
| kanzure | that was not publicly accessible | 12:21 |
| kanzure | "i've been on this list for 14 weeks running, never gonna die bitches" | 12:21 |
| kanzure | hah. | 12:21 |
| fenn | FourFire: US male life expectancy at age 25 in 1901 was 39.1 years, and in 2009 was 54.6 years so 14% increase (unitless factor calculated as years per year) | 12:24 |
| FourFire | fenn I sort of want higher resolution than that | 12:24 |
| FourFire | like comparing the last decade's years | 12:25 |
| fenn | oops that was female | 12:25 |
| FourFire | to see current trends and such | 12:25 |
| fenn | well you're going to have to dig around in those links because i won't | 12:25 |
| TMA | FourFire: https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/NOTES/as120/LifeTables_Body.html | 12:26 |
| fenn | female life expectancy certainly seems to plateau at 84 according to the part of the graph with actual data, but then they project it upwards? weird | 12:29 |
| fenn | figure 2b in that last link | 12:30 |
| TMA | making predictions is hard. especially about the future (Niels Bohr ???) | 12:35 |
| FourFire | Thanks for that TMA. | 12:36 |
| TMA | FourFire: you are welcome | 12:37 |
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| fenn | i wish i had transcripts of conversations like this https://wikileaks.org/Transcript-Meeting-Assange-Schmidt.html#688 | 12:58 |
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| kanzure | i do that for all of the meetings at work. it's pretty great. | 13:03 |
| kanzure | well, great also because there are very few meetings. | 13:04 |
| kanzure | like http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/snarks/ | 13:04 |
| fenn | most conversations aren't even recorded as audio though | 13:05 |
| fenn | just whoosh three years go by and you can't remember it ever happened | 13:06 |
| fenn | anyway this particular transcript is a pretty good read so far | 13:06 |
| fenn | i feel smarter just reading it :P | 13:07 |
| kanzure | assange was an extropian back in the day | 13:07 |
| TMA | oh, wikileaks seem to be blocked by my provider | 13:22 |
| fenn | TMA http://fennetic.net/irc/Transcript-Meeting-Assange-Schmidt.html | 13:23 |
| TMA | fenn: thank you | 13:23 |
| fenn | uh, append #688 to the url if you are specifically interested in bitcoin/namecoin | 13:24 |
| fenn | this is mostly about political subversion and the technical aspects of publishing under harsh censorship | 13:25 |
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| TMA | there are advantages to having such transcripts. I wonder if it is feasible for ordinary nontechnical people to record their meetings and have it transcribed | 13:33 |
| TMA | It would have to be cheap and secure enough. You probably would not like the transcript be produced by google/apple when you are from say IBM. Or if you are from _any_ research lab working on a patentable invention | 13:35 |
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| fenn | especially with "first to file" now | 13:38 |
| fenn | what a pile of shit | 13:38 |
| fenn | i don't have $10k to blow on every half baked idea that might turn out to be useful some day | 13:39 |
| fenn | at the same time, with ad-hoc research groups like this one, it's not even clear who deserves to have their name on a patent | 13:40 |
| kanzure | my patent reform proposal https://groups.google.com/d/msg/openmanufacturing/vS4ju1VqXb0/jD_TZ8U47b4J | 13:40 |
| fenn | i'd be in favor of a simple "intellectual property tax" | 13:40 |
| fenn | whereby you have compulsory licensing at your stated valuation, and are taxed at that valuation | 13:41 |
| fenn | also i hate google groups' website and can't be arsed to defuxx their hash | 13:41 |
| kanzure | ah so now you need "intellectual tax assessors" | 13:41 |
| fenn | no, it's a declared value | 13:41 |
| fenn | state the value of your invention | 13:41 |
| kanzure | here is copy-paste of the patent reform proposal from that last link http://pastebin.com/TCvVGBhN | 13:41 |
| fenn | thank you | 13:42 |
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| fenn | i'm just going to mentally s/advisor/wizard/ and s/technology/magic/ from now on | 13:44 |
| fenn | za3k has this crazy idea that you can actually get people to state their honest valuation of something by using a second-highest bidder auction system | 13:46 |
| fenn | that the incentives line up such that people will provide the maximum number of dollars they'd pay to have a thing | 13:46 |
| fenn | ebay implements this bidding scheme | 13:47 |
| kanzure | auction house corruption is known problem, need private information bidding, probably encryption or two-step phased release thingy. this is the sort of crypto that adam3us is good at making up. | 13:47 |
| TMA | I like the idea behind patents: "reveal your secret in exchange for a limited monopoly on said secret" -- if there is no secret, there is no possibility for granting a monopoly | 13:47 |
| kanzure | hahah | 13:48 |
| TMA | however, in practise, most patents reveal no secrets | 13:48 |
| fenn | but in practice there is no secret, it's just "do the thing that is obvious to everyone working on the problem" | 13:48 |
| fenn | and whoever has the most lawyers wins | 13:48 |
| TMA | that's the broken part :) | 13:48 |
| fenn | see makerbot vs fenn 2011 | 13:48 |
| kanzure | the problem is that this has a stifling effect on innovation | 13:48 |
| kanzure | they can have their monopolies, but they have to get their dirty paws off of my tech. | 13:49 |
| fenn | what is a monopoly then? | 13:49 |
| kanzure | centralization direct or side effect | 13:50 |
| fenn | in medieval times "grants of monopoly" were common and expected benefits of large companies' bargaining power with the king/noble/whatever | 13:50 |
| TMA | fenn: I like your idea that you are taxed on your declared valuation. | 13:51 |
| kanzure | "If I were to try to guess and hand-wave at it: There are many things in the world where you can show that there, in theory, exist small monopoly pressures... but no monopoly has yet formed. Maybe in all these cases after sufficiently long (maybe millions of years, assuming the economy was stationary that long) they'd form. I think we could probably say that a given amount of centralization bias implies a certain amount of ... | 13:51 |
| kanzure | ... instantaneous "time until monopoly", but so long as the state of the world and all the influencing factors is not substantially stable on that timescale then the monopoly won't ever form. A small bias might shift things in your favor, but then some upset happens and then they're shifting in someone elses favor." ( https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3uz0im/eli5_if_large_blocks_hurt_miners_with_slow/cxkrygn ) | 13:51 |
| kanzure | economies of scale and attention bandwidth; the king is not going to have time to grant "monopolies" to a billion people, etc. | 13:52 |
| fenn | gmaxwell ignores things like stable periodic attractors (and weirder ones too) | 13:53 |
| fenn | not everything is linear gradient descent | 13:53 |
| kanzure | when you see everything through linear gradient descent rose colored glasses, everything looks like.. well actually it's lunch time and i can't be bothered with this. | 13:54 |
| fenn | i like that essay "I, pencil" - it really shows the magical power of people who are free to innovate | 13:54 |
| TMA | I have read Rushkoff's "Life, Inc." He argues there (persuasively) that the corporation today is just a extension of the mediaeval/early-modern monopolies | 13:55 |
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| fenn | many large companies existing today (ahem elsevier) are literally mediaeval/early-modern monopolies | 13:56 |
| kanzure | ah yes the royal book binding society | 13:57 |
| fenn | twinings tea anyone? is it tea time in texas? | 13:58 |
| TMA | I think there is an implicit distinction made between a company and a corporation -- the former is term for group of people doing business together, while the latter is some sort of an autonomous entity (somehow it feels like corporation == post singularity AI) | 14:00 |
| fenn | yes the shareholder agreement makes it so that a corporation has goals that none of its employees personally have | 14:01 |
| jrayhawk | "13:48 < fenn> see makerbot vs fenn 2011" where would i go to see this | 14:03 |
| fenn | heh not really, i don't have the energy for that crap | 14:03 |
| fenn | but i made some forum posts about automated build platforms that got developed further by reprap people and eventually were patented by makerbot | 14:04 |
| jrayhawk | did they actually threaten anyone with those patents | 14:04 |
| fenn | yes there was a company selling something and they were contacted by makerbot and informed of the patent and they stopped selling them | 14:05 |
| jrayhawk | did you give that company your posts as prior art | 14:05 |
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| fenn | it was an attachment for some common 3d printer like a prusa i guess | 14:05 |
| jrayhawk | expert witnesses in patent litigation make good money; often upwards of $1000/hr | 14:06 |
| kanzure | i believe you mean to say "technology-magic litigation" | 14:06 |
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| kanzure | as established above | 14:07 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: auto leveling was a different patent but same "slew of patents" http://web.archive.org/web/20140523233613/http://www.openbeamusa.com/blog/2014/5/22/stay-classy-makerbot | 14:08 |
| fenn | 2014 huh? | 14:08 |
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| fenn | this is the automated build platform thing i was talking about http://web.archive.org/web/20150215110133/http://charlespax.com/2010/03/17/makerbot-conveyor-belt/ | 14:11 |
| fenn | i can't find it, sorry | 14:28 |
| fenn | it's worth noting that charles pax was not an employee of makerbot at the time of his postings | 14:28 |
| fenn | not yet | 14:29 |
| Aurelius_Work | hmmm | 14:29 |
| Aurelius_Work | I remember chatting with some people about task-basis error reduction on 3d printers ages ago too | 14:30 |
| Aurelius_Work | when I was summing up state of the art in application of control system theory to 3d printers | 14:30 |
| fenn | uh, and also charles pax was not an employee of makerbot at the time of the patent | 14:33 |
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| * fenn sleeps | 14:47 | |
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| kanzure | proofoflogic: hi | 15:34 |
| proofoflogic | @kanzure I'm not even really lurking here tbh, just logging in so that I could in theory keep up | 15:37 |
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| kanzure | proofoflogic: lurk fodder is http://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap and http://gnusha.org/logs/ | 15:38 |
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| proofoflogic | Fenn are you the person I met when visiting Steve Rayhawk in the summer | 15:54 |
| jrayhawk | almost certainly | 15:57 |
| proofoflogic | ok cool | 15:58 |
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| kanzure | .in 230h igem 2015 follow-up (i missed like 70% of the projects i think?) | 16:04 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: I'll remind you on 19 Dec 2015 14:04Z | 16:04 |
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| kanzure | i want some sort of metric for meetlog ideasync quality; actually, maybe i should be doing an idealog instead. | 16:12 |
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| kanzure | instead of cdc death forecasts i guess i should add my own estimates of life expectancy of others, so that i can better prioritize the soon-to-be-dead. | 16:14 |
| kanzure | i don't have as many of those assange-style conversations as i would prefer (i have far fewer), partly i attribute this to difficulty of arranging material upfront. k-means tag clustering has in the past not generated results from my meetlog data of sufficient quality for me to use as preparation work for braindumps/syncups like that. (i mean, i can do the prep work manually, but theoretically isn't this data supposed to be useful for ... | 16:17 |
| kanzure | ... these purposes?) | 16:17 |
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| kanzure | more specifically, the k-means data is of such low quality that i would have had better prep work had i just sat down and thought about it for a few minutes. | 16:19 |
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| docl | "My approach to terraforming Mars is dismantling it, and making space habitats with Earth-like environments out of it. You could support about 600,000 trillion people that way, or fewer people on a really grand scale. The problem with planets is most of the useful materials are locked up inside where you can't easily get to them, and a sphere has the least surface area to live on for a given mass." -- | 16:47 |
| docl | Dani Eder https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/3p7zee//cw4iyae | 16:47 |
| superkuh | Might as well just Ceres at that point. | 16:49 |
| docl | You can sort of tell he's an Extropian by the way he says stuff like that. | 16:49 |
| docl | Ceres is like less than 1% of the mass of Mars | 16:50 |
| docl | It's 33% of the asteroid belt, so no small potatoes, but the asteroid belt as a whole is a tiny fraction of the mass of any of the inner planets (even Luna) | 16:50 |
| docl | Roughly 3e21 kg for the asteroid belt, 7e22 for Luna, 7e23 for Mars. So Mars is about 10x the mass of the Moon and 200x the mass of the asteroids. Mercury is about half as massive as Mars. | 16:55 |
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| docl | http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-10-26.log mentions dani's work on seed factories | 16:59 |
| docl | "A teleoperated lunar factory might be doable. I guess there is a workforce problem once it starts to go exponential, but that is a good problem to have. | 17:02 |
| docl | The reason it has not been done is likely a combination of complexity (designing a workable design would likely take a fair number of aerospace engineers) and the tendency to go for tried-and-true not too visionary space projects over the past 30 years. That might of course change now with the upstart private space projects." -- Anders Sandberg https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/3l1jqs//cv2ld | 17:02 |
| docl | kn | 17:02 |
| docl | https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/3l1jqs//cv2ldkn | 17:02 |
| docl | Thing is, I'm not totally sure it is really worth developing a complex industrial toolchain for space like the one used today (as reflected in the pencil essay). Since energy is not scarce, it might be more worth while to use a scaled-up mass spectrometer type device like Freitas Atomic Separator Replicator, which eats basically anything and spits out basically anything. http://www.molecularassembler.c | 17:08 |
| docl | om/KSRM/3.14.htm | 17:08 |
| docl | Argh, is there an irssi setting to prevent it from mangling links? http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM/3.14.htm | 17:08 |
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| kanzure | some journos are pestering me about gwern, suggested talking points? | 17:36 |
| docl | He writes about nootropics and does double blind tests on himself. He has followed bitcoin from the early days. | 17:38 |
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| kanzure | why would i want to mention any of that? | 17:39 |
| kanzure | that has nothing to do with his misbehavior | 17:39 |
| kanzure | geeze https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1thnq3/i_am_not_satoshi_nakamoto_please_stop_trying_to/ce882bz?context=3 | 17:40 |
| docl | He relies more on irc as a social outlet than most people do, partly due to hearing impairment. (I think he mentioned that when he objected to someone posting logs on lesswrong.) | 17:40 |
| kanzure | that's also completely irrelevant. wtf. | 17:41 |
| docl | You want talking points about the doxxing thing specifically? | 17:43 |
| kanzure | i want talking points about why it's important to not have nyms shitting over society | 17:44 |
| kanzure | ruins nyms for the rest of us | 17:44 |
| Jawmare | he sounds cuntish | 17:47 |
| docl | https://www.google.com/search?q=anonymity+and+behavior lots of news articles about this already. | 17:47 |
| eudoxia | >I do not go public on YouTube and bloviate in a long video about who I think Satoshi | 17:47 |
| eudoxia | lmao | 17:47 |
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| docl | Well, this is distinct from ordinary trolling. gwern built up a substantial reputation under that nym, so his random speculation is more-than-usually likely to be taken seriously. The lack of direct personal repercussions is potentially still a factor in what he chooses to say and how far he goes, though. | 18:00 |
| nmz787_i | .ud doxxing | 18:02 |
| yoleaux | nmz787_i: Sorry: that command is a web-service, but it didn't respond in plain text. | 18:02 |
| docl | There is also the question of whether we want journalists to sometimes take smart sounding nyms seriously, or whether that is too exploitable to be generally considered okay. We could picture someone setting up a bunch of gwern-like identities for the express purpose of strategically faking news stories. | 18:02 |
| kanzure | wow that was the dumbest conversation i've ever had | 18:03 |
| kanzure | "so other than all of this damning evidence that they got it wrong, is there anything you saw that makes you think yes?" wtf | 18:03 |
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| nmz787_i | .g doxxing | 18:03 |
| yoleaux | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing | 18:03 |
| cluckj | lol | 18:03 |
| nmz787_i | .g nyms | 18:04 |
| yoleaux | http://newyorkmyc.org/ | 18:04 |
| kanzure | this is very very close to swatting | 18:04 |
| nmz787_i | "New York Mycological Society is a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization dedicated to raising the public awareness of mushrooms in science, cuisine and more." sounds pretty cool | 18:04 |
| kanzure | nym == pseudonym | 18:05 |
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| eudoxia | any reasonable person would expect this would involve at least one raid | 18:07 |
| eudoxia | apparently he was outside Australia at the time or something | 18:07 |
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| maaku | kanzure: jtimon might know about origins of ripple, more than me... | 18:35 |
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| kanzure | maaku: but the question was whuffie origins | 18:42 |
| maaku | i have no idea what a whuffie is | 18:43 |
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| kanzure | haha i am going to quote you on that in the future. | 19:07 |
| kanzure | okay done | 19:08 |
| JayDugger | Good evening, everyone. | 19:09 |
| kanzure | re: whuffie stuff, | 19:12 |
| kanzure | 19:11 <@gmaxwell> kanzure: the idea has existed elsewhere of course; but I'm pretty sure that name comes from DaOitMK | 19:12 |
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| bjonnh | yoleaux: nmz787_i: do you know the work of Paul Stamets? | 19:33 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=ed082f06 Bryan Bishop: include initial block sync slides >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/block-synchronization-time/ | 19:48 |
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| kanzure | bleh | 20:49 |
| kanzure | for some reason i didn't reject this email http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011927.html | 20:49 |
| kanzure | since it was my fault, i figured i should write the reply http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011931.html | 20:49 |
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| kanzure | ugh | 23:50 |
| kanzure | apparently i should have rejected that satoshi nakamoto email | 23:50 |
| kanzure | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10709310 | 23:50 |
| --- Log closed Thu Dec 10 00:00:32 2015 | ||
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