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| docl | https://youtu.be/odU1bHaYNDQ | 01:39 |
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| rkos | hi, is paperbot back online? | 05:03 |
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| rkos | just wondering if theres anywhere where i could get this article http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dta.1620/abstract ? | 05:04 |
| Diablo-D3 | the url that says get pdf? | 05:05 |
| rkos | nah but it requires an account | 05:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | sigh | 05:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | government money paid for this research | 05:05 |
| Diablo-D3 | this makes me angry | 05:05 |
| rkos | oh its on libgen | 05:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | url? | 05:07 |
| rkos | http://gen.lib.rus.ec/scimag/index.php?s=pcp+mxe&journalid=&v=&i=&p=&redirect=1 | 05:08 |
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| streety | Diablo-D3: how do you know government money paid for that research? | 05:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | streety: because its research. | 05:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | So much research is "tainted" by tax payer money, they'd have to prove they didn't get government funding somewhere | 05:30 |
| streety | not all research is government funded | 05:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | If even a single penny went in, that research belongs to me | 05:30 |
| Diablo-D3 | I dunno, it just drives me up a wall that people think its okay to put research papers behind paywalls | 05:32 |
| Diablo-D3 | Its just massively bullshit | 05:32 |
| streety | I'm all for research being made freely available but the government angle seems like a poor argument | 05:33 |
| Diablo-D3 | streety: its one of those things where, in the US, once government funding goes into it, your ability to claim you have true real honest to god rights to ownership of it | 05:34 |
| Diablo-D3 | like, if NASA does something? they can't even claim copyright | 05:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | because thats 100% made by the government | 05:35 |
| streety | this article was written in the US, so might 'belong' to all Americans but what about Japanese or Europeans? What if it was written by European or Japanese researchers? | 05:35 |
| Diablo-D3 | I want to say EU has similar feelings about this | 05:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | Japan? Who knows, probably US funding went into it somewhere | 05:36 |
| Diablo-D3 | if you told me the US was funding scientific research in other countries, I wouldn't even question it, I really wouldn't | 05:36 |
| streety | Hopefully everyone worldwide feels that research should be globally available. It doesn't necessarily follow that use of US research dollars means someone in another country should have free access to it. And vice versa | 05:38 |
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| kanzure | anders sandberg lecture on stuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1qu3OGGbuM | 06:48 |
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| archels | kanzure: anything new? | 07:06 |
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| kanzure | no idea, my internet connection has been dropping connections like crazy, can't see a thing | 07:08 |
| archels | how are you not pulling your hair out right now | 07:08 |
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| kanzure | well i'm replaying new star wars in my head. so there's that. | 07:13 |
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| kanzure | pew pew pew. kaboosh. | 07:16 |
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| FourFire | fenn, why can't the magnetic particles cooling process just be repeated? | 07:24 |
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| fenn | fourfire then it's just refrigeration | 07:52 |
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| Alcyius | I just got informed that I have direct admission to my university's College of Engineering | 08:10 |
| JayDugger | Congratulations. | 08:15 |
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| kanzure | you owe me 100 pages of typed text for why you are ignoring my advice | 08:19 |
| Alcyius | Which advice | 08:19 |
| kanzure | huh i guess that explains it | 08:19 |
| kanzure | you can do fine without college | 08:20 |
| Alcyius | Well yeah, but I'm already 2 years into it, and it's a claim ticket for 20% greater life earnings | 08:20 |
| Alcyius | And the easier it gets, the stupider I look for not doing it | 08:20 |
| kanzure | "20% greater life earnings" this is not how statistics works | 08:20 |
| Alcyius | My goal is to get a job working for a startup and hit FI as soon as possible | 08:21 |
| kanzure | startups don't care about college | 08:21 |
| Alcyius | Fair enough | 08:21 |
| Alcyius | I'm mostly doing it cuz its free | 08:22 |
| Alcyius | I have enough scholarships to not pay a penny | 08:22 |
| kanzure | financial independence can be achieved much more quickly by earning money immediately instead of waiting | 08:22 |
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| kanzure | trivial argument in favor of this is to point you towards how compound interest is important (e.g. better to earn a high income as quickly as possible) | 08:22 |
| kanzure | high income later in life is less useful because you have less years in that direction. | 08:23 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: does sympa have better moderation tools for incoming email moderation? like group-based moderating with votes or audit logs or something. | 08:24 |
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| fenn | apparently if you get enough scholarships you just get free money, like to put in a bank account | 08:56 |
| fenn | someone i know is getting like $100k that way | 08:57 |
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| Alcyius | fenn, yeah, though it's dependent on the school/scholarship | 09:06 |
| Alcyius | My uni tried to stop giving "refund" checks | 09:07 |
| Alcyius | There was a huge outroar but they still don't refund 100% of the money | 09:07 |
| Alcyius | Which is stupid as all hell, cuz its your fucking money | 09:07 |
| Alcyius | http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=1643 | 09:12 |
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| docl | FourFire: the issue with that is its not really "cooling" with magnetic fields so much as temporarily increasing tempetrature. | 09:29 |
| fenn | s/temperature/heat capacity/ | 09:29 |
| fenn | this is some pretty gnarly stuff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinolinic_acid | 09:30 |
| Alcyius | that reminds me | 09:32 |
| Alcyius | Anyone here read about that person trying to modify tobacco plants to produce sex horomones | 09:33 |
| Alcyius | *hormones | 09:33 |
| Alcyius | Always fuck that up | 09:33 |
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| kanzure | "After rigorous testing, the new BitFury Chip has demonstrated outstanding computing capabilities. The design target was 40 gigahash per second with power efficiency of 0.06 joules per gigahash. On average, the measured power efficiency of tested engineering samples of the new BitFury Chip ranges from 0.055 joules per gigahash to 0.07 joules per gigahash, thus making the BitFury 16nm ASIC Chip the industry leader in energy efficiency." | 09:51 |
| kanzure | also, here's some stuff about soft-forks in bitcoin land: | 09:52 |
| kanzure | http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011974.html | 09:52 |
| kanzure | http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/011980.html | 09:52 |
| kanzure | http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/012014.html | 09:52 |
| fenn | already used up my monthly quota of fucks to give for bitcoin | 09:52 |
| Alcyius | I don't know why, but something about bitcoin just puts me off | 09:53 |
| kanzure | fenn: the third one is sorta interesting about compatibility. it's not much fuckery there. | 09:53 |
| kanzure | Alcyius: well, money is pretty awful | 09:53 |
| Alcyius | Yeah | 09:53 |
| Alcyius | Also, it just feels like bitcoin has more problems than traditional fiat currencies | 09:53 |
| kanzure | Alcyius: to be fair, hplusroadmap was also extremely negative about bitcoin. we heard about it one day after it was released to the publish: http://gnusha.org/logs/2009-01-10.log | 09:54 |
| Alcyius | At least the USD has the US Government telling people to use it | 09:54 |
| kanzure | *released to the public | 09:54 |
| kanzure | in fact, i have recently decided that it is completely fair to call myself the first bitcoin hater | 09:54 |
| superkuh | I don't understand it. Luckily I don't need to to use it. Regardless of the political infighting of the week re, scaling, blocksize, etc, etc, it's still better than using the credit card system. | 09:54 |
| Alcyius | lol you particularly called it crap | 09:54 |
| fenn | this was in the context of being sick of hearing about p2p energy currencies from marc fawzi | 09:55 |
| kanzure | yeah to be fair that is a good reason to be angry/upset | 09:55 |
| Alcyius | fair enough | 09:55 |
| kanzure | superkuh: i am curious which aspects you don't understand yet. i have learned much of the art of explaining many of these components. | 09:55 |
| fenn | this growing understanding of the implications of soft vs hard forks has relevance for other distributed software systems as well | 09:58 |
| Alcyius | "Social consequences of all deaths being violent or accidental in nature." | 09:59 |
| kanzure | satoshi nakamoto originally did not have a strong understanding of consensus forks, because many of the opcodes he originally introduced would make the network self-fork against itself (there was an opcode that checked the version number of the client that was validating the current transaction.............). | 09:59 |
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| fenn | alcyius are you physically in school right now? | 10:08 |
| Alcyius | No, but I should be writing a paper right now | 10:08 |
| Alcyius | I'm in my room, debating whether or not to take a shower | 10:09 |
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| Alcyius | Why? | 10:10 |
| fenn | elon musk was asked: "What daily habit do you believe has the largest positive impact on your life?" | 10:11 |
| kanzure | it's a natural adult question once you hit the "old and cranky" age | 10:11 |
| fenn | i was old and cranky when i was a kid | 10:11 |
| kanzure | tell elon musk, "something about never realizing what other people mean by mental fatigue" | 10:12 |
| fenn | mostly i was wondering if people in high school are able to hang out on IRC in class | 10:12 |
| Alcyius | fenn, I'm only technically in high school though | 10:13 |
| Alcyius | All my classes are at the local university | 10:13 |
| kanzure | i was able to do that in some classes (based on ethernet port distance). school wifi was off-limits. and mobile pocket emergency keyboard wasn't invented yet. | 10:13 |
| Alcyius | Even so, its finals week | 10:13 |
| kanzure | hmm i am still unhappy with lack of papers on positron emission tomography of neuron activity | 10:15 |
| fenn | isn't it really slow? like it takes 20 minutes per image | 10:16 |
| FourFire | At secular solstice meetup now :D | 10:16 |
| fenn | A miniature PE tomograph has been constructed that is small enough for a fully conscious and mobile rat to wear on its head while walking around.[21] This RatCAP (Rat Conscious Animal PET) allows animals to be scanned without the confounding effects of anesthesia. | 10:17 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PET-MR2-Head-Keosys.JPG | 10:19 |
| Alcyius | FourFire, are they playing Cthulhu Carols? | 10:20 |
| nmz787_i | Alcyius: I read about the tobacco hormone project | 10:24 |
| Alcyius | I find it pretty interesting | 10:25 |
| kanzure | is that last link an image of ratcap-derived brain imaging?? | 10:29 |
| docl | fenn: it's a change in temperature, hence the deltaT in the equation on the wiki page. not a change in heat capacity, which would be deltaC | 10:32 |
| docl | although I guess it does mention change in heat capacity where it is describing it later. hmm. | 10:33 |
| docl | "Adiabatic magnetization: A magnetocaloric substance is placed in an insulated environment. The increasing external magnetic field (+H) causes the magnetic dipoles of the atoms to align, thereby decreasing the material's magnetic entropy and heat capacity. Since overall energy is not lost (yet) and therefore total entropy is not reduced (according to thermodynamic laws), the net result is that the subs | 10:33 |
| docl | tance is heated (T + ΔTad)." | 10:33 |
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| fenn | no the last image is just a random MRI+PET brain scan | 10:34 |
| fenn | i had never seen one before | 10:34 |
| docl | the change in heat capacity causes the change in temperature | 10:35 |
| Alcyius | I hate being sick | 10:35 |
| Alcyius | Even my eyes hurt | 10:35 |
| fenn | alcyius take vitamin D | 10:37 |
| fenn | 10,000 IU for starters | 10:37 |
| Alcyius | Wish I had any vitamins around the house | 10:37 |
| nmz787_i | being sick sucks | 10:38 |
| kanzure | yea death to the pro-sick absolutists | 10:38 |
| FourFire | Hey kanzure talked to a guy here, who wondered why there's no bitcoin assassination market for ISIS? | 10:38 |
| fenn | "for ISIS"? | 10:39 |
| Alcyius | Clarify: For members of ISIS, or for their targets? | 10:39 |
| Alcyius | Or both? | 10:39 |
| kanzure | assassination markets are sort of hard when there's only pseudonymity instead of anonymity in bitcoin transactions | 10:40 |
| fenn | most criminals are not smart enough to use bitcoin | 10:40 |
| nmz787_i | but surely they have infrastructure and backend support | 10:40 |
| nmz787_i | those people would likely be the orchestrators | 10:41 |
| nmz787_i | right? | 10:41 |
| nmz787_i | or am I overestimating them? | 10:41 |
| kanzure | "most criminals" are by definition going to be small-timers like pocket thieves or whatever, especially when a large >1% of the population is deemed criminal. | 10:41 |
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| Alcyius | Also the definition of criminal is nebulous and dependent on the host society's morals | 10:42 |
| fenn | a hired assassin | 10:43 |
| kanzure | wait.. >1% might be wrong. looking. | 10:43 |
| kanzure | i give up. i don't care. jail 'em all. | 10:44 |
| FourFire | Alcyius, to target ISIS structure, to kill them off | 10:44 |
| kanzure | i'm okay with talking about assassination markets but it's wrong to assume that it would only target one group of people...... i don't know where that's coming from. | 10:46 |
| Alcyius | FourFire, I'd probably have to say that ISIS's chain of command is sketchy at best, and their location would make transport/verification difficult at best | 10:47 |
| FourFire | Alcyius, of course, though I'd prefer if kanzure, who has more in depth knowledge about bitcoin to answer | 10:48 |
| Alcyius | Fair enough | 10:48 |
| kanzure | pretty sure someone got arrested for talking about assasination markets | 10:48 |
| kanzure | jim bell | 10:48 |
| kanzure | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_market#History | 10:48 |
| Alcyius | GOD DAMNIT | 10:49 |
| Alcyius | What is it about Ohio that drives people crazy | 10:50 |
| Alcyius | He was born in my hometown | 10:50 |
| kanzure | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Bell | 10:50 |
| kanzure | oh, hm, the government claimed it was about tax evasion | 10:50 |
| Alcyius | and then harrassment of federal agents | 10:50 |
| Alcyius | etc | 10:50 |
| FourFire | > there might be people in france who would donate... | 10:51 |
| fenn | its like how they charge you overdraft fees because you didn't immediately pay the overdraft fee because there was no money in your bank account | 10:51 |
| kanzure | instead of plotting the murder of everyone (which, by the way, i hold that planetary destruction is the only legitimate method for doing so), better to focus on voluntary exit from current bullshit by extensive use of self-replicating tech tree libraries. | 10:53 |
| FourFire | > at german festivity, have to ask whether I need to invoke godwin's law. | 10:53 |
| FourFire | > I don't | 10:53 |
| Alcyius | kanzure, better get that project started before we hit the multi-planetary stage | 10:53 |
| kanzure | if you can blow one planet up then you can blow them all up | 10:53 |
| fenn | "Bell also accepted responsibility for conducting a stinkbomb attack in the Vancouver IRS office" | 10:54 |
| Alcyius | Yes, but by the time your death star gets to the next one | 10:54 |
| Alcyius | They might've figured out how to destroy it | 10:54 |
| kanzure | yea i am starting to think this has nothing to do with his assassination market essays :P | 10:54 |
| Alcyius | Unless you abuse galactic politics to move halfway across the galaxy in half a second | 10:54 |
| kanzure | you don't need a death star to destroy a planet.... | 10:54 |
| kanzure | kids these days, geeze | 10:54 |
| Alcyius | It was a joke about a Galactic Civilization II playthrough | 10:55 |
| fenn | back in the day we used fusion planet busters | 10:55 |
| Alcyius | There was a law passed that when war was declared, enemy units were moved to the closest allied territory | 10:55 |
| Alcyius | So he abused that to move his star destroyer to his enemy's home system | 10:55 |
| Alcyius | In a single turn | 10:55 |
| nmz787_i | yeah if people had some personal force field, we wouldn't have to worry as much about crazies | 11:01 |
| nmz787_i | /me bullies approaching, activate shield! | 11:01 |
| kanzure | better strategy would be to have multiple backups, at worst you would lose a few hours of your experience or something | 11:02 |
| fenn | but what if they move the knife slowly | 11:02 |
| kanzure | kung fu | 11:02 |
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| Aurelius_Work2 | hmmm | 11:03 |
| Aurelius_Work2 | I should pick up galciv3 at some point | 11:03 |
| nmz787_i | well I would assume a force field would also keep air pressure (or the lack thereof) at bay | 11:06 |
| kanzure | r2d2 died | 11:06 |
| nmz787_i | so non-insulating space suit | 11:06 |
| nmz787_i | well | 11:07 |
| nmz787_i | maybe it would insulate | 11:07 |
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| nmz787_i | hmm, they're giving away tickets at work the day I work from home | 11:09 |
| kanzure | surpeme leader is played by the lincoln memorial | 11:10 |
| nmz787_i | that sounds like that monkey/ape movie series | 11:10 |
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| Diablo-D3 | http://nautil.us/issue/31/stress/a-vaccine-for-depression | 12:05 |
| fenn | ketamine is a powerful NMDA antagonist; its antidepressant activity would make sense if the quinolinic acid theory of depression were true | 12:07 |
| Diablo-D3 | tell m more about this quinolinic acid theory | 12:08 |
| Diablo-D3 | aaaand having looked it up on wikipedia, I wonder why I never heard of it before | 12:08 |
| fenn | "The prefrontal cortices in the post-mortem brains of patients with major depression and bipolar depression contain increased levels quinolinic acid immunoreactivity compared to the brains of patients never having suffered from depression. ... By inducing increased levels of quinolinic acid in the cerebral spinal fluid with interferon α, researchers have demonstrated that increased quinolinic | 12:09 |
| fenn | acid levels correlate with increased depressive symptoms." | 12:09 |
| fenn | i just heard of it earlier today thanks to mister jrayhawk | 12:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinolinic_acid | 12:09 |
| Diablo-D3 | just look at the contents table, section 5.2 | 12:09 |
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| Diablo-D3 | _huh_, norharmane suppresses production | 12:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | aka beta carboline | 12:10 |
| fenn | i don't like referring to ketamine as a "vaccine", it's imprecise and misleading | 12:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | yeah, thats nautilus | 12:11 |
| fenn | yeah i was just reading about harmine | 12:11 |
| fenn | apparently tobacco contains harmine | 12:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | their url segment shit hardly matches the final headline most of the time | 12:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | Ive looked into beta carbolines before | 12:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | very interesting shit | 12:11 |
| Diablo-D3 | mostly because of tryptoline | 12:12 |
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| fenn | why tryptoline in particular? | 12:13 |
| Diablo-D3 | it plays a role in the dopamine family of weirdness | 12:14 |
| fenn | based on my ten second reading of wikipedia it's just a MAOI and SSRI | 12:15 |
| Diablo-D3 | btw, I wonder what happened to 9-m-bc | 12:18 |
| Diablo-D3 | http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1471-4159.2010.06725.x/full | 12:18 |
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| nmz787_i | has anyone made a keyboard using full-body gesture detection, something that would end up looking like dance dance revolution except without a pad and using your arms and etc body parts? something that would basically give you a sustainable full-body excercise throughout the work day | 12:23 |
| fenn | there are kinect apps i think | 12:24 |
| nmz787_i | jrayhawk: I think you need to provide input on the best set of muscles to target ^ | 12:24 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: did you see the article about impedance tomography for gesture recognition? | 12:24 |
| fenn | yes, "tomo" what a lame name | 12:24 |
| nmz787_i | http://www.chrisharrison.net/index.php/Research/Tomo | 12:24 |
| fenn | i like the idea though, it looks really simple and effective | 12:24 |
| nmz787_i | yea | 12:24 |
| nmz787_i | mm | 12:24 |
| nmz787_i | nickjohnson_: was working with chips in that range of AD products | 12:25 |
| nmz787_i | it seems like maybe ankles, thighs, wrists, bicep cuff... and maybe neck would be interesting inputs for an excercise keyboard | 12:27 |
| nmz787_i | err | 12:27 |
| nmz787_i | exercise | 12:27 |
| nmz787_i | (using that tomo tech) | 12:27 |
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| kanzure | there were some gesture motion user input projects on kickstarter, but they all looked too low-bandwidth for my interests | 13:03 |
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| nmz787_i | kanzure: would you use a full-body keyboard? | 13:25 |
| nmz787_i | not only do you need enough gestures to map to keys... you also need the ideal layout of the gesture-key map | 13:25 |
| nmz787_i | you don't want the space bar being something like 'look down' | 13:25 |
| nmz787_i | (with your neck, not eyes) | 13:26 |
| kanzure | i would be okay with hand/arm gloves with lots and lots of accelerometers and other sensors. | 13:31 |
| kanzure | peripheral nerve recording would also be nice, i guess. facial twitching could be a good supplement with typing. | 13:32 |
| nmz787_i | I guess I've been worried about body health lately, as I have not been very physically active | 13:33 |
| nmz787_i | other than typing | 13:33 |
| nmz787_i | and it seems like it could be a better answer than a treadmill desk | 13:34 |
| kanzure | -50 degree cryotherapy bath probably has okay muscle maintenance benefits | 13:34 |
| nmz787_i | ctrl-alt-delete needs to be a very angry looking gesture | 13:36 |
| nmz787_i | middle fingers up, with arms raised ? | 13:36 |
| kanzure | increasing the physical exertion required to complete actions will only cause total action cost to be increased.... user interfaces should aim to be minimally invasive and have minimal energy gradients. | 13:37 |
| kanzure | just take some steroids or something | 13:38 |
| nmz787_i | not as accessible as impedance tomography parts | 13:38 |
| nmz787_i | I wonder what someone would look like who could full-body type very fast | 13:39 |
| nmz787_i | kung-fu? | 13:39 |
| nmz787_i | karate? | 13:39 |
| kanzure | probably would look like someone sitting very still | 13:39 |
| nmz787_i | no | 13:39 |
| nmz787_i | it wouldn't | 13:39 |
| nmz787_i | it would look crazy | 13:40 |
| nmz787_i | and the person my break a sweat | 13:40 |
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| nmz787_i | taking 'agile' coding to a new level | 13:40 |
| nmz787_i | this would be the only way to fight off your space fortress while still at the same time programming sudo make-me-a-sandwich | 13:41 |
| fenn | nmz try sitting on a yoga ball instead of a chair | 13:45 |
| fenn | also you could ... exercise | 13:45 |
| kanzure | develop an unhealthy appreciation for pacing | 13:46 |
| fenn | snort adderall as part of your morning regimen | 13:46 |
| kanzure | for exercise ? | 13:47 |
| fenn | to induce pacing | 13:47 |
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| jrayhawk | fenn: did you come to any interesting conclusions on reading more into the corticosteroid resistance literature | 13:59 |
| fenn | i haven't | 13:59 |
| fenn | read anything that is | 13:59 |
| jrayhawk | ah, okay | 14:08 |
| jrayhawk | inflammation->intestinal dominance of serotonin utilization/kynurenine diversion to quinolinic acid, corticosteroid resistance, thyroid/hypothalamic downregulation->depression is reasonably neat accounting for the neurochemical changes typically seen | 14:12 |
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| fenn | i thought it would be corticosteroid resistance first that leads to inflammation | 14:13 |
| fenn | anyway biology is messy | 14:14 |
| jrayhawk | limiting cranial serotonin limits production of melatonin | 14:14 |
| jrayhawk | so, yes, both ways would be valid | 14:14 |
| fenn | so sleep deprivation is what leads to stress? (in the way you first phrased it) | 14:15 |
| jrayhawk | probably the fastest way to do so, yes | 14:15 |
| jrayhawk | at least, from reasonably expected environmental factors | 14:16 |
| kanzure | joey why have you never tried to fix fenn's sleep issues | 14:16 |
| jrayhawk | fenn is more motivated than i am to investigate them | 14:16 |
| fenn | i'm all investigated out | 14:16 |
| kanzure | "he's more motivated" is not a good excuse, actually | 14:16 |
| jrayhawk | and probably equivalently qualified | 14:16 |
| kanzure | qualification is bullshit | 14:17 |
| jrayhawk | in this case "is literate and understand how to use google" | 14:17 |
| kanzure | but you know about the weirdness in this context right? | 14:17 |
| jrayhawk | i don't think so | 14:18 |
| kanzure | i sort of assume all the symptoms are obvious but i suppose nobody really stalks people like i do :p | 14:18 |
| fenn | ? | 14:18 |
| kanzure | s/assume/assumed | 14:18 |
| jrayhawk | i remember seeing fenn's sleep charts and seeing a lot of drift | 14:18 |
| kanzure | well, for example, he might not be aware of your non-24 stuff | 14:18 |
| kanzure | "a lot of drift" is sorta understatement? | 14:18 |
| fenn | free running sleep | 14:19 |
| fenn | we prefer the term "differently sleepled" | 14:19 |
| jrayhawk | AFAIK human isolated from light cycles will pretty typically wind up running their cycles a little long | 14:19 |
| kanzure | i would also submit that, the level of data that fenn has collected about this, is so ridiculously huge and the effort he has put into figuring out has been high enough to warrant at least some objection better than "he is more motivated" heh... | 14:20 |
| jrayhawk | figuring what out | 14:20 |
| kanzure | maybe i'm not having the conversation i think i'm having | 14:20 |
| fenn | well i'm pretty dysfunctional at 'life' | 14:21 |
| kanzure | this is not "i'm lazy and haven't figured this out yet" | 14:21 |
| fenn | i attribute a lot of it to not being able to make appointments or have regular meetings with people/groups | 14:21 |
| kanzure | i doubt that motivation is the missing ingredient; more likely that fenn is inadvertedly missing some details about biology or something. | 14:22 |
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| jrayhawk | have you tried basic stuff like taking melatonin on an alarm or manipulating SCN timing by triggering photosensitive ganglia with full-spectrum lighting and/or amber goggles | 14:23 |
| fenn | yes and yes | 14:24 |
| kanzure | yeah i had no idea joey was so underinformed on this | 14:24 |
| jrayhawk | what were the results | 14:24 |
| fenn | as far as i can tell lighting has no effect whatsoever on me | 14:24 |
| fenn | melatonin does actually affect my sleep schedule but it's hard to get it to kick in at the right time so the effects are unpredictable | 14:24 |
| fenn | it's worse than unhelpful if you take melatonin to get to sleep and it makes you sleep in 6 hours | 14:25 |
| fenn | i was only taking 0.5mg | 14:25 |
| fenn | people here keep telling me to look at what metamed recommended for yudkowsky (who coincidentally has the same problem) which is to take melatonin in the middle of the day | 14:26 |
| jrayhawk | durrr? | 14:26 |
| jrayhawk | what was the justification for that | 14:26 |
| fenn | i don't know | 14:26 |
| fenn | but apparently it worked for him | 14:26 |
| jrayhawk | so the other half of the circadian rhythm is the cortisol cycle, which i haven't looked into much | 14:27 |
| fenn | i thought there were like 4 clocks | 14:27 |
| jrayhawk | "adrenal fatigue" is a fascinating field because nobody can agree on what it means or how it works or how to treat what elements of it | 14:27 |
| jrayhawk | but a failure to produce cortisol is a good way to accidently sleep in six hours | 14:28 |
| fenn | i thought i was absorbing the melatonin at the wrong time because i had eaten dinner with a lot of protein | 14:28 |
| jrayhawk | some intestinal receptor competition? i am not familiar with how that works for melatonin. | 14:29 |
| fenn | just gastric emptying | 14:29 |
| fenn | i guess i should try to do melatonin experiments again | 14:30 |
| jrayhawk | doesn't seem like timing should be all that sensitive; the goal is to average a 24 hour cycle, i would assume, not exactly hit it with precision | 14:30 |
| fenn | no, it's important to have precise timing with melatonin | 14:31 |
| fenn | look at the phase response curve | 14:31 |
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| jrayhawk | GABA supplementation helps some folks, too, but I have to wonder if that's undesirable BBB permeability variability | 14:32 |
| fenn | i hate gaba and all gabaergics | 14:32 |
| jrayhawk | bad reaction? | 14:35 |
| fenn | i have no real reason to wake up early in the morning, so it's hard to just stop doing productive interesting stuff and whack my brain with a GABA mallet until i fall unconscious | 14:35 |
| fenn | it just makes me feel stupid and tired and sit on the floor and do nothing | 14:36 |
| jrayhawk | yeah, i have the same problem | 14:36 |
| jrayhawk | well, not with the sitting and doing nothing | 14:36 |
| fenn | i used to get anxiety but magnesium supplementation totally stopped that | 14:37 |
| jrayhawk | but the flipped circadian rhythm making me vastly more mentally active at night | 14:37 |
| fenn | i can see how gaba might help people with crippling anxiety | 14:37 |
| jrayhawk | some mammals flip circadian rhythms in response to environmental stressors | 14:37 |
| fenn | having gone without it for so long, i tend to underestimate the importance of regular face to face social interaction, and just assume that i could accomplish X without it if i had the right intervention, but that may not be true | 14:41 |
| fenn | most people get up and go to work every day and have people with expectations for whether X is done yet or have you made progress on Y (yak shaving leading to X) | 14:42 |
| kanzure | cortisol resistance could be an interesting explanation (or low cortisol production? something cortisol). | 14:42 |
| kanzure | anyway your stress response is basically "hmm i wonder what nist.gov says about the fundamental constants involved in this problem". | 14:43 |
| fenn | well i do tend to overreact to stressful events | 14:43 |
| kanzure | .. not that this is bad. just probably related to cortisol something. | 14:43 |
| fenn | internally at least | 14:43 |
| fenn | better with magnesium now | 14:43 |
| fenn | much less devastating recovery period | 14:44 |
| kanzure | anxiety/overreaction is not sufficient explanation. lots of people are extremely anxious in all sorts of interesting ways, without this sort of sleep problem. | 14:44 |
| fenn | yeah the sleep problem has been going on for much longer, since puberty probably | 14:44 |
| kanzure | seems unlikely to be environmental stressor. you tend to vary those somewhat often. and you have iterated through a bunch of either diets or supplement sequences. | 14:46 |
| fenn | .wik chiari malformation | 14:47 |
| yoleaux | "Chiari malformation, also known as Arnold–Chiari malformation, is a condition affecting the brain. It consists of a downward displacement of the cerebellar tonsils through the foramen magnum (the opening at the base of the skull), sometimes causing non-communicating hydrocephalus as a result of obstruction of cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) outflow." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiari_malformation | 14:47 |
| fenn | it would be easy to exclude this particular hypothesis with an MRI, but those bastards won't let me | 14:47 |
| kanzure | that's what medical tourism is for, these days. | 14:48 |
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| kanzure | i don't recall how much blood/hormone testing you have done | 14:49 |
| fenn | in 2013 the standard blood tests all looked normal. i didn't do any specific tests | 14:50 |
| fenn | thyroid and testosterone were included | 14:51 |
| kanzure | apparently, when other people get tired, they have lowered mental faculties. does this hold for you as well? | 14:53 |
| jrayhawk | kanzure: corticosteroid resistance is limited to the immune-suppression effects and not to the gluconeogenesis-inducing effects | 14:53 |
| fenn | yes, if all my clocks are synched | 14:53 |
| fenn | synched with each other | 14:54 |
| nmz787_i | can we form an intentional-community IRL? | 14:58 |
| nmz787_i | I am fine if it is not a short-term plan | 14:58 |
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| kanzure | like somewhere in the desert? | 14:59 |
| jrayhawk | voting for missle silo | 14:59 |
| jrayhawk | underground bunkers also accepted | 14:59 |
| fenn | would you settle for a submarine pen | 15:00 |
| jrayhawk | moisture would be bad for servers, i suspect | 15:00 |
| kanzure | why would you have moisture on the inside? | 15:01 |
| fenn | because of the ocean | 15:01 |
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| kanzure | i'm not following | 15:01 |
| kanzure | how does nmz787 not know about the desert cult that indoctrinated me? | 15:02 |
| fenn | http://stour-crimea.com/%3Cp%3ENEW!!!%3C/p%3E/balaklava-submarine-pens-tour-experience-of-the-cold-war-54.html | 15:02 |
| kanzure | do naps shift your schedule? | 15:04 |
| fenn | i don't do naps | 15:04 |
| nmz787_i | well this is for sale, and is close enough to decent amounts of civilization and ports and such: http://www.themissilebase.com/ | 15:04 |
| nmz787_i | jrayhawk: and I could tour it for $100 plus gas | 15:05 |
| nmz787_i | looks like it would be about 7 hours drive from here, one way | 15:07 |
| nmz787_i | I thought it was more like 3 | 15:07 |
| jrayhawk | yeah, the downside is that running fiber out there would probably cost an extra 100k | 15:08 |
| fenn | is this in the "dry shitties" tri-cities area? | 15:08 |
| nmz787_i | oh, no, 5:10 | 15:08 |
| nmz787_i | https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Hillsboro,+OR/47.11187+,+-118.491049/@47.4432085,-120.4124963,8z/data=!4m12!4m11!1m5!1m1!1s0x5495055f56bce579:0x7d29ff866a33ed86!2m2!1d-122.989827!2d45.5228939!1m3!2m2!1d-118.491049!2d47.11187!3e0 | 15:09 |
| nmz787_i | this is in the ice-dam-flood plain | 15:09 |
| jrayhawk | I kind want to tour Hanford sometime | 15:09 |
| nmz787_i | I'm up for that | 15:09 |
| jrayhawk | our nations proudest, most terrifying industrial wasteland | 15:11 |
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| kanzure | fenn: as far as social scheduling is concerned, why not just schedule everything 2-3 weeks out based on predicted schedule. | 15:13 |
| kanzure | oh right, the frequency is all wrong | 15:13 |
| fenn | usually people meet for social groups "tuesdays at 6 pm" or something like that | 15:14 |
| kanzure | sure. so in a 7 week period i think you could make at least 1.2 of those. | 15:14 |
| fenn | if i'm actually interested i end up making it there 20% of the time | 15:14 |
| jrayhawk | i have a lot of scheduling problems, too, but nobody seems to mind | 15:15 |
| jrayhawk | i guess they assume unstable schedules come with the territory | 15:15 |
| kanzure | your sleep is not unstable. | 15:15 |
| kanzure | sure you have a flipped schedule every once in a while.. but at least you're consistent. | 15:16 |
| jrayhawk | i mean even stuff like business meetings are usually a vague "i will probably call you sometime in the afternoon to see if i can drop in" because actually hitting times reliably is very hard on me | 15:16 |
| kanzure | well meetings are dumb anyway | 15:17 |
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| kanzure | so, i think that the problem with the brain uploading approach as described is that the funding needed seems somewhat difficult to acquire due to lack of interim revenue. | 15:31 |
| kanzure | brain banking could bring in revenue long before brain uploading software stuff is working | 15:31 |
| kanzure | but brain banking stuff is presumably delayed by neuroscience community buy-in | 15:32 |
| kanzure | perfusion machine and perfusion analytics and related tooling might be an okay temporary revenue source, but VCs would probably only fund that with a prototype receiving pre-orders. | 15:33 |
| kanzure | and VCs are not particularly excited to fund stuff that starts with "okay so we are going to need to operate a corporate lab for 2 years to flesh out the exact details". | 15:34 |
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| archels | .wik transhumance | 16:00 |
| yoleaux | "Transhumance is the seasonal movement of people with their livestock between fixed summer and winter pastures. In montane regions (vertical transhumance), it implies movement between higher pastures in summer and lower valleys in winter. Herders have a permanent home, typically in valleys." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumance | 16:00 |
| kanzure | archels: electron or even expansion microscopy to count the number of vesicles near a synapse? yes/no | 16:03 |
| archels | electron, certainly | 16:04 |
| * archels eyes upwards | 16:04 | |
| kanzure | and do you think vesicle counting would be useful for inferring synaptic weight and regulatory network status for a certain neuron/dendrite/etc/ | 16:05 |
| kanzure | *etc? | 16:05 |
| kanzure | see near 17:58 http://gnusha.org/logs/2015-12-16.log | 16:05 |
| archels | well if even cryogenics has such a hard time taking off, I predict worse for brain banks | 16:06 |
| kanzure | goal wasn't brain banking, just brain uploading | 16:06 |
| kanzure | "just" :-) | 16:06 |
| archels | who is this that you're quoting there in the logs? | 16:06 |
| kanzure | aurellem | 16:07 |
| archels | fully verified? how? by running the simulation and interacting with it? | 16:07 |
| archels | the cynic in me predicts dilution of the term verification | 16:08 |
| kanzure | first, physical verification by comparing vitrified vs unvitrified samples, second by electrophysiology characterization | 16:08 |
| archels | shoot, he was here? how did I miss this | 16:08 |
| kanzure | well, he is not claiming already-successful verification | 16:08 |
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| archels | his MEng work looks neat | 16:13 |
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| nmz787_i | are vesicle locations important? | 16:49 |
| nmz787_i | aren't they always in flux? | 16:49 |
| nmz787_i | or is that how you'd determine neuronal weights? | 16:49 |
| nmz787_i | (by relative presence of vesicles) | 16:49 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: well it's not just weight that you need to determine but also things like... responses across spectrum of neurotransmitters, neurohormones, etc. | 19:59 |
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| kanzure | spoiler: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSSTdD5WwAEzy2G.jpg | 20:18 |
| CautiousNarwhal | lol | 20:32 |
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| erasmus | looks like a Cymek Titan | 21:16 |
| AdrianG | wtf u here too | 21:17 |
| AdrianG | i need to come up with a membership-only irc channels. paid by bitcoin. | 21:17 |
| erasmus | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | 21:18 |
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| kanzure | 20:01 <erasmus> can you remove my ban please? | 21:52 |
| kanzure | 20:01 <kanzure> why? | 21:52 |
| kanzure | 20:01 <erasmus> I don't like knowing it's there. | 21:52 |
| kanzure | 20:02 <kanzure> any other reason? | 21:52 |
| kanzure | 20:02 <erasmus> nope | 21:52 |
| AdrianG | i have to award points for honesty | 21:53 |
| erasmus | ? | 21:53 |
| * erasmus is watching a movie | 21:53 | |
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| ebowden | What did erasmus do to be banned? | 22:04 |
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| --- Log closed Sat Dec 19 00:00:41 2015 | ||
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