| --- Log opened Wed Dec 30 00:00:51 2015 | ||
| Diablo-D3 | http://arxiv.org/pdf/1507.03592v3.pdf | 00:10 |
|---|---|---|
| Diablo-D3 | .title | 00:10 |
| yoleaux | Diablo-D3: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page. | 00:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | doh | 00:10 |
| Diablo-D3 | "How to Recover a Qubit That Has Fallen Into a Black Hole" | 00:10 |
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| Diablo-D3 | http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v524/n7564/full/nature14668.html | 00:43 |
| fenn | .title | 00:44 |
| yoleaux | The octopus genome and the evolution of cephalopod neural and morphological novelties : Nature : Nature Publishing Group | 00:44 |
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| fenn | missing "Nucleic Acids and Molecular Biology" volumes 1, 11, 12 (there are 28 in the series?) | 01:23 |
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| fenn | uploaded 11 12 and 15; springer is missing 1 and 5, and the rest are still paywalled | 01:46 |
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| fenn | gosh they have a lot of books available for download | 02:03 |
| fenn | 110,183 books to be precise | 02:04 |
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| atomica__ | test | 05:19 |
| xentrac | FourFire: sounds like a good plan | 05:20 |
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| kanzure | https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/dutch-universities-and-elsevier-reach-deal-over-open-access | 06:14 |
| chris_99 | did anything happen with elsevier and the whole of France, gaining free access | 06:15 |
| xentrac | the netherlands is my hero | 06:15 |
| xentrac | I hacked together a super minimal accelerometer-driven VR proof of concept: http://canonical.org/~kragen/sw/81hacks/topopt-ar/ | 06:16 |
| xentrac | I was going to include topology optimization and camera input in it in some form, but I ran out of time | 06:17 |
| xentrac | it took me most of an hour to figure out the basic accelerometer crap | 06:17 |
| kanzure | springer fixed their bug | 06:23 |
| maaku | sadly :( | 06:24 |
| xentrac | what bug? | 06:43 |
| xentrac | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10810271 has discussion of Springer access | 06:44 |
| xentrac | "Access seems to have been cut off about 2 hours ago" "It appears to be working well for me" | 06:44 |
| kanzure | for the past few days, springer had ~50k books and lots of older material available for download | 06:45 |
| xentrac | I know. seems to be 135 books now | 06:46 |
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| fenn | i snagged some engineering books that sounded interesting; would have tried harder if i had realized the time-limited nature of the opportunity | 07:46 |
| pompolic | I'd have grabbed more if i had the storage space /excuses | 07:48 |
| pompolic | was too good to be true | 07:48 |
| kanzure | fenn: science liberation front has you covered. significant chunk retrieved. | 07:50 |
| kanzure | however, a lot of this is moot because of (undisclosed reasons that would make everyone smile so hard they would die) | 07:51 |
| fenn | right, well, i'll believe it when i see it | 07:51 |
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| xentrac | kanzure: where? | 08:09 |
| xentrac | the undisclosed reasons sound awesome but they might change | 08:09 |
| kanzure | nah it's stuff that happened in the past. over and done. :-) | 08:11 |
| xentrac | global thermonculear war? no, if that were it then I already would have heard | 08:14 |
| xentrac | it's been 23 minutes since you said that | 08:14 |
| kanzure | why would global thermonuclear war make you smile? | 08:14 |
| xentrac | one might smile at the foolishness of people spending their precious remaining minutes of life downloading books they would never read | 08:15 |
| pompolic | i'm guessing they've been mass-grabbed by someone(s) | 08:16 |
| kanzure | even better | 08:17 |
| andares | Uh, I should just go grab the logs | 08:17 |
| kanzure | i highly encourage everyone to always grab the logs | 08:18 |
| andares | But what are we discussing? My first glance was at global thermonuclear war.. | 08:18 |
| andares | I will grab the logs | 08:18 |
| xentrac | Springer | 08:18 |
| xentrac | kanzure: is it possible to git clone the logs? | 08:18 |
| andares | Oh goodness that's awesome | 08:19 |
| xentrac | Yes, Springer's decision was very generous | 08:20 |
| xentrac | Let's hope they make it permanent | 08:20 |
| andares | xentrac: I don't think git would work well, because they are streaming | 08:20 |
| fenn | lol it was obviously a mistake | 08:20 |
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| xentrac | fenn: I don't think so, although I admit that's a possibility | 08:21 |
| fenn | downloading books sounds like the best possible use of the last few minutes before the missiles hit | 08:21 |
| fenn | some new stuff in springerwat/engineering/ (use your brain) | 08:22 |
| xentrac | what about reading the books you've already downloaded | 08:22 |
| fenn | what about thinking about the future of humanity | 08:22 |
| andares | I always fall into the mental trap of thinking that downloading a book has somehow installed its contents into my brain. | 08:23 |
| andares | Damnit, we need the matrix | 08:23 |
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| xentrac | you could probably finish thinking about the future of humanity fairly quickly if a nuclear holocaust were imminent. maybe you could listen to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JCFAci21wE | 08:24 |
| fenn | .title | 08:24 |
| yoleaux | Simon & Garfunkel - The Sun is Burning - YouTube | 08:24 |
| andares | xentrac: missile strikes would push forward the deadline for singularity rather dramatically I fear | 08:24 |
| xentrac | well, we probably have at least six months or a year | 08:26 |
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| xentrac | maybe longer | 08:27 |
| xentrac | and maybe WWIII won't involve a nuclear exchange | 08:27 |
| andares | I think the next imminent threat to humanity is bioterrorism | 08:27 |
| xentrac | UN Security Council Resolution 2254 makes me optimistic about that | 08:28 |
| andares | DIY is going to pretty quickly become easy enough for somebody to do | 08:28 |
| andares | I don't worry about nation-state bioterrorism, mostly about lone wolves | 08:29 |
| andares | Fortunately, all the malicious lone wolves have been stupid or not technically inclined | 08:29 |
| kanzure | the concern about lone wolves is misplaced.... you never had control over loners. | 08:29 |
| xentrac | You kind of have to be stupid to attempt bioterrorism as a lone wolf | 08:30 |
| kanzure | you should instead focus on improving general technology infrastructure so that everyone can defend themselves and work on problem solving | 08:30 |
| andares | But before, a loner could not release an outbreak of ebola | 08:30 |
| kanzure | by limiting infrastructure in fear of lone wolves, you make us more vulnerable to attack | 08:30 |
| kanzure | yes they could have done that before | 08:30 |
| kanzure | there are even people who intentionally infect others with STDs | 08:30 |
| andares | I agree with your points about infra btw | 08:30 |
| andares | I am just disentangling my fears and my solutions | 08:31 |
| kanzure | solution is to have way for everyone to bugger off with their own space colonies, try their own political experiments, etc. | 08:31 |
| xentrac | you certainly could have released an outbreak of ebola as a lone wolf 40 years ago | 08:31 |
| xentrac | you'd have to do like that guy who infected himself with hookworms in Cameroon though | 08:32 |
| andares | kanzure: once we get a bit closer to Seveneves | 08:32 |
| xentrac | and you'd probably die in the process, but that's still true | 08:32 |
| andares | Xentrac: there are lots of suicide bombers in the middle East atm. I don't understand why they're not channeling that into higher-scale attacks | 08:33 |
| xentrac | they aren't "lone wolves" | 08:34 |
| andares | Well, small cells | 08:34 |
| xentrac | also I think suicide bombing is more an Indian thing | 08:34 |
| xentrac | although there are obvs people in the Middle East doing it too | 08:34 |
| andares | Hrm. I guess we'd start seeing symptoms, and then contact trace our way out of it | 08:35 |
| andares | Maybe some kind of rapid vaccination design program too | 08:37 |
| xentrac | the thing that limits lone-wolf bioterrorism (or to a lesser extent chemical and explosive terrorism) is that by far the most likely outcome is that the lone "wolf" dies in the process without hurting anybody else | 08:37 |
| xentrac | except maybe whoever finds their body and disposes of it | 08:38 |
| andares | I know the RNAi-based vaccine for Ebola failed to get approval, but maybe RNAi would be a good general platform | 08:38 |
| andares | I still don't understand why RNAi therapeutics didn't take off | 08:39 |
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| Deku-shrub | oh wow, have I found an active transhumanist IRC channel? | 09:28 |
| archels | yes, hello, welcome. | 09:28 |
| Deku-shrub | omg I have so many questions | 09:29 |
| Deku-shrub | like, who are you, how and where are you organised, what are your projects? | 09:29 |
| kanzure | see http://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap | 09:30 |
| Deku-shrub | I have seen that | 09:31 |
| Deku-shrub | I was wondering how the grouping came about in the first place | 09:31 |
| Deku-shrub | I run this wiki: http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Main_Page | 09:31 |
| Deku-shrub | I am mapping out the world's tranhumanist organisations | 09:31 |
| kanzure | waste of time.... they all suck. i was director of r&d at humanity+ for a while. don't bother. | 09:31 |
| kanzure | hplusroadmap started in 2007 when i was writing a transhumanist technology roadmap. | 09:31 |
| Deku-shrub | it's not associated with Humanity+ actually | 09:32 |
| kanzure | "world's transhumanist organizations" includes humanity+ unfortunately | 09:32 |
| Deku-shrub | This is the list of all futurist wikis I could find, I don't have anything on you org yet though http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Transhumanist_wikis | 09:32 |
| kanzure | we are not an org, we are more like a science liberation and engineering militia | 09:33 |
| Deku-shrub | many many organisations listed, but not yet completed: http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Category:Transhumanist_organisations | 09:33 |
| kanzure | hmm i guess a militia has to be an organization.... | 09:33 |
| Deku-shrub | sorry ;) | 09:33 |
| kanzure | we are just people working on some stuff | 09:33 |
| archels | generally this channel is less concerned with talking about transhumanism than actually brining it about@s7 | 09:33 |
| Deku-shrub | what people, what stuff? I want to know. I know very little about the grinder movement | 09:33 |
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| kanzure | grinder movement is sorta separate- they sort of hate me because i told them to go fuck themselves. | 09:34 |
| Deku-shrub | oh okay :) | 09:34 |
| Deku-shrub | this is my chart of the related communities, going to be published on the IEET I hope when it's finished http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_futurist_related_ideologies | 09:34 |
| kanzure | i also hate ieet and i want james hughes to vanish | 09:34 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transhumanism | 09:35 |
| archels | ssh, let him publish my JET paper thing first | 09:35 |
| kanzure | traitor | 09:35 |
| Deku-shrub | I've created the largest map of what can loosly be called the transhumanist community, I am well aware that everyone either hates everyone or doesn't know about the other half | 09:36 |
| kanzure | grinders are more like the bodymod people, e.g. tats and plastic surgery. they don't really like the idea of engineering correctness, they are more fascinated with aesthetic value and noisemaking. | 09:36 |
| Deku-shrub | so your org's focus is biohacking I'm guessing? | 09:36 |
| archels | so why is a nootropic user by definition not a transhumanist or a life extensionst? | 09:36 |
| Deku-shrub | @archels - I accuse you of not reading the 'overview' section | 09:37 |
| kanzure | i am not sure why you are calling this an organization | 09:37 |
| pompolic | as a nub i think i ended up in the right place for once | 09:37 |
| pompolic | re: grinders | 09:37 |
| AdrianG | archels: who said its not? | 09:37 |
| Deku-shrub | having a website = an organisation :p | 09:37 |
| kanzure | what? | 09:37 |
| Deku-shrub | I'm not using the term in a legalistic sense | 09:37 |
| archels | well putting a disclaimer there is just the easy way out isn't it | 09:38 |
| archels | AdrianG: http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_futurist_related_ideologies | 09:38 |
| pompolic | kanzure: if you're asking me, i really like the idea of correctness, that's all | 09:38 |
| archels | Deku-shrub: what's your own background? | 09:38 |
| kanzure | no, i am "whating" his conflation of websites and organizations | 09:38 |
| pompolic | oh, sorry | 09:38 |
| kanzure | w/e | 09:39 |
| Deku-shrub | I am a founder of the UK transhumanist party - deputy IT and misc fielding, digital rights person for many years, recently main contributor to H+Pedia | 09:39 |
| Deku-shrub | http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/User:Deku-shrub | 09:39 |
| archels | cool, yeah, pirate.london is having some trouble loading here | 09:40 |
| Deku-shrub | It was flaking out earlier :( | 09:41 |
| Deku-shrub | all their sysadmins are on holiday = doom | 09:41 |
| archels | have you tried turning it off and on again? | 09:41 |
| * Deku-shrub is on shared hosting | 09:41 | |
| AdrianG | archels: the map is not the territory. we simply make up labels to help us sort things into buckets and make it easier to operate mentally with them. | 09:41 |
| Deku-shrub | @Adrian - yes | 09:42 |
| archels | Hrm.Wayback Machine doesn't have that page archived. | 09:42 |
| Deku-shrub | or as Eddie Izzard would put it, I am expanding the scope of futurism through cunning use of flags | 09:42 |
| AdrianG | i am convinced that everyone who self-medicates in hopes of improving one self in some way - is transcending their current condition. | 09:42 |
| AdrianG | and by definition is already transhuman to some degree. | 09:43 |
| fenn | beer monkeys | 09:43 |
| archels | AdrianG: these kinds of disclaimers are not excuses for making a bad or wrong map | 09:43 |
| archels | (not accusing you here Deku-shrub, just arguing the general case) | 09:43 |
| archels | it's like putting "no copyright intended" below an infringing YouTube upload | 09:43 |
| AdrianG | archels: its not an excuse. | 09:44 |
| AdrianG | archels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_semantics | 09:44 |
| AdrianG | there can never be an absolutely precise map. | 09:45 |
| archels | no, like you said, maps are devices to help us think | 09:45 |
| Deku-shrub | in my case, subtle propaganda btw | 09:45 |
| archels | if the map is making you take a wrong turn or making you generally think that two things are at opposite extremes when they're not, then it's a bad map | 09:45 |
| archels | because it is not helping you in thinking well and making good decisions | 09:46 |
| kanzure | i do not see this conversation as being helpful or useful | 09:46 |
| kanzure | and i am also going to take a wild guess and assume that Deku-shrub is very much committed to his ways | 09:47 |
| Deku-shrub | you can always contribute to the definitions and help me create the best infographic about futurist communities ever done :) | 09:47 |
| kanzure | Deku-shrub: what do you actually do other than organize parties | 09:47 |
| kanzure | no, fuck infographics | 09:48 |
| * Deku-shrub puts away his other infographics | 09:48 | |
| kanzure | i'm not gonna ban you for linking to infographics. but generally many people assume these images have more value than they do. | 09:48 |
| Deku-shrub | I do many things, what would you like to know? as I said, I'm here to try and understand what this organisations/website/militia is about right now | 09:49 |
| kanzure | i already strongly disagree with your assessment of the value of the rest of the transhumanist community; i think this is probably irreconciable. | 09:50 |
| Deku-shrub | what value did I place on the transhumanist community? I said it was highly disorganised and has infighting - so you think the opposite? | 09:51 |
| kanzure | you place enough value in the rest of it to bother stalking all of them. i guess there's sort of a selection effect here (because otherwise it's lacking an explanation for why you would find this place). | 09:52 |
| kanzure | but i'd much rather you not find this place than someone think the community has value enough to bother stalking all of them | 09:52 |
| Deku-shrub | so.. you're opposed to the principle or collating transhumanist organisations? | 09:53 |
| kanzure | haven't you noticed they don't actually do anything? | 09:53 |
| Deku-shrub | of course | 09:53 |
| kanzure | so.. why are you wasting your time like this? | 09:53 |
| Deku-shrub | I am trying to work out the few which actually do things | 09:53 |
| Deku-shrub | in order to do this I am indexing them all first | 09:53 |
| Deku-shrub | I enjoy this btw | 09:53 |
| kanzure | maybe if you were an anthropologist, then i could understand or even agree. but this doesn't seem to be the case. | 09:55 |
| Deku-shrub | who says I'm not? :p | 09:55 |
| kanzure | (or, rather, anthropological inclinations) | 09:55 |
| kanzure | ((i don't actually care about anthropologist titles (sorry cluckj)) | 09:56 |
| Deku-shrub | My socialogical research is mostly around dark web myths and legends rather than transhumanist stuff | 09:56 |
| Deku-shrub | but I'm piecing together wtf 'spiritual transhumanism' is for instance | 09:56 |
| Deku-shrub | there are many emergent transhumanist memes when you collate enough data | 09:57 |
| kanzure | so? | 09:57 |
| Deku-shrub | here is a page for you to object to now: http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/DIY_Hplus | 09:58 |
| kanzure | what objection are you looking for? | 09:58 |
| Deku-shrub | you've been suggesting my initiate is a waste of time in different ways | 09:58 |
| Deku-shrub | so I was anticipating more of that | 09:58 |
| Deku-shrub | *initiative | 09:58 |
| kanzure | yea but about that particular link? | 09:59 |
| Deku-shrub | that's about your miltia thing, I was hoping to have described you guys accurately | 09:59 |
| Deku-shrub | I'm writing them for various orgs and interests then getting feedback until people are happy | 09:59 |
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| Deku-shrub | anyhow, so sticking within the area of practical biohacking, do you have a relationship with this site at all? http://www.agingchart.org/wiki/Main_Page | 10:10 |
| Deku-shrub | Any pointers to write up more about Biohacking in general would be appreciated also | 10:13 |
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| archels | there's ##biohack also, biohack.me IRC couterpart | 10:30 |
| Deku-shrub | nice | 10:34 |
| Deku-shrub | apparently you can get 'answsers' on that site :) | 10:35 |
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| xentrac | kanzure: I would appreciate it if you didn't describe any group I am even loosely affiliated with as a "militia" | 10:51 |
| kanzure | yea i was kidding. we are also not bioterrorists, for the record. | 10:51 |
| kanzure | "In Ticketmaster v. RMG, the smaller company, which extracted non-copyrightable data from Ticketmaster's site, lost because the Court ruled that the momentary existence of a web page in RAM constituted an unauthorized copy. The real-world analog is claiming that an illegal copy is made every time a copyrighted work reflects against your retina." | 10:51 |
| kanzure | yeah i'm not sure how copyright law is supposed to work for people with eidetic memories | 10:52 |
| xentrac | Deku-shrub: you can run a website on a Raspberry Pi Zero; you don't need an "organization" :) | 10:53 |
| xentrac | I am aware that you are kidding but the keyword filters may not be so forgiving | 10:53 |
| docl | isn't the hip new term "swarm"? | 10:53 |
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| xentrac | hmm, I hadn't seen http://maradydd.livejournal.com/496085.html before that I can remember | 10:55 |
| xentrac | .title | 10:55 |
| yoleaux | A Biopunk Manifesto - Radio Free Meredith | 10:55 |
| xentrac | oh shit, Ian Murdock died: https://blog.docker.com/2015/12/ian-murdock/ | 10:58 |
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| CaptHindsight | what happened to azcobiotech.com? the site has been down | 11:01 |
| CaptHindsight | have they disappeared? | 11:02 |
| kanzure | azcobiotech got acquired a year ago (or more?), maybe they don't have any sysadmin on staff | 11:02 |
| kanzure | they might also be unaware | 11:02 |
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| docl | not exactly new in internet years, but presumably no more than 5 or so years old http://falkvinge.net/2011/08/01/swarmwise-what-is-a-swarm/ | 11:02 |
| CaptHindsight | they sold the liquid reagents for the inkjet | 11:03 |
| Deku-shrub | docl - I have that book! | 11:03 |
| CaptHindsight | there are still a few others | 11:03 |
| kanzure | azcobiotech is still around, their site is just down, i think | 11:03 |
| kanzure | someone needs to phone them up and tell them about their outage | 11:03 |
| kanzure | they probably don't monitor their site's uptime | 11:04 |
| docl | Deku-shrub: I figured you'd be familiar with the falkvingean stuff :) | 11:04 |
| Deku-shrub | I have met him | 11:04 |
| CaptHindsight | they must not count on website orders or they would have noticed by now | 11:04 |
| Deku-shrub | he is a good speaker, despite the pirate movement not going from strength to strength | 11:04 |
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| CaptHindsight | did BioCurious in Sunnyvale turn down hosting the POSAM? | 11:06 |
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| xentrac | hmm, actually Ian seems to have killed himself | 11:06 |
| kanzure | CaptHindsight: i wouldn't offer that to biocurious | 11:06 |
| kanzure | CaptHindsight: there's way too much internal drama at biocurious | 11:07 |
| kanzure | CaptHindsight: also they have budget problems, revenue problems, and no expertise to debug the machine as far as i know. | 11:07 |
| kanzure | CaptHindsight: btw, hosting the machine isn't quite the problem at the moment....... getting the thing to work is the first priority. and part of that is finding people who know more chemistry than i do. | 11:07 |
| CaptHindsight | was just looking at their bio-printer website | 11:07 |
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| kanzure | i think juul worked on that project | 11:07 |
| kanzure | juul: ping | 11:07 |
| CaptHindsight | I'm going to build a printer with femtoliter size drops | 11:09 |
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| TMA | Deku-shrub: I think that your assessment of the channel members as an organization is somewhat misguided: a litmus test for you: do you consider yourself as a member of this "organization"? On the contrary the diyhpl wiki is a wiki that might warrant an entry in http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Transhumanist_wikis, provided that it meets hpluspedia's notability policy (or some equivalent thereof) | 11:11 |
| xentrac | how big is a normal inkjet droplet? several picoliters apparently: http://www.fkf.mpg.de/429741/subfemtoliter-inkjet | 11:12 |
| Deku-shrub | TMA - I already added it to the wiki list | 11:12 |
| Deku-shrub | I could create a subgroup of 'organisations that refuse to be called as such' instead if you like? | 11:13 |
| TMA | Deku-shrub: sorry, I have missed it entirely | 11:13 |
| CaptHindsight | xentrac: it varies from 1-80pl for most consumer inkjet printers | 11:13 |
| CaptHindsight | canon and epson have <$200 inkjets with down to 1pl drops | 11:14 |
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| kanzure | xentrac: CaptHindsight has offered to build us the dna synthesis machine if i supply the moolah :-) | 11:17 |
| kanzure | xentrac: project is held up while i find chemistry people to help iron out design bugs, e.g. CaptHindsight cannot sit around debugging the machine's chemistry, so i want to hire someone else to do that. | 11:17 |
| CaptHindsight | I moving ahead on my own | 11:17 |
| kanzure | so the offer is rescinded? i know the scheduling is out of whack now, but.... | 11:18 |
| CaptHindsight | the chemistry is not a problem, lots of variations | 11:18 |
| kanzure | how is it not a problem? | 11:18 |
| kanzure | getting the material choices wrong is a huge setback | 11:19 |
| kanzure | (for example) | 11:19 |
| CaptHindsight | the problem has been patents, nit the chemistry | 11:19 |
| kanzure | oh, i am willing to pay for this despite the existence of patents, i'm fine with that | 11:19 |
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| CaptHindsight | I'll ping you when it's up | 11:20 |
| chris_99 | do patents apply if you're DIYing something out of interest? | 11:20 |
| kanzure | patent law can be twisted to do just about anything | 11:20 |
| chris_99 | (something not for sale) | 11:20 |
| kanzure | yes, patent laws can be used in litigation even if you are not selling something | 11:20 |
| chris_99 | ah | 11:20 |
| CaptHindsight | chris_99: yeah, and patents are used just to block innovation | 11:20 |
| CaptHindsight | they never have to go into production or even build a working model | 11:21 |
| xentrac | CaptHindsight: cool, thanks! | 11:21 |
| xentrac | patent laws are hard to apply against things that are done in private | 11:22 |
| CaptHindsight | heh, yeah | 11:22 |
| TMA | recently the rightsholders can get the patent even without disclosure of the invention (because the disclosure is so vague that it does not describe anything more than an outline of an idea) | 11:22 |
| xentrac | it's common for research labs, for example, to try a patented invention internally, for example in order to patent improvements on it or in order to test it against unpatented alternatives | 11:22 |
| CaptHindsight | if you can't control the profits from the invention you block others from doing the same | 11:23 |
| CaptHindsight | it's like 5 year olds | 11:24 |
| CaptHindsight | if they can't have the ball then nobody else can either | 11:24 |
| chris_99 | heh | 11:24 |
| chris_99 | have you played around with REing the piezo heads of printers? (assuming you are using piezo heads) | 11:25 |
| Deku-shrub | This is good - https://i.imgur.com/HLoxjio.jpg | 11:26 |
| CaptHindsight | I know how they are built | 11:26 |
| CaptHindsight | chris_99: I have NDA access to most of the printheads on the market | 11:26 |
| chris_99 | ooh neat :) | 11:27 |
| CaptHindsight | what they mostly keep secret is the data protocol | 11:27 |
| chris_99 | ah | 11:28 |
| CaptHindsight | well they also keep the mechanical specs secret but you can measure just about everything | 11:29 |
| CaptHindsight | even nozzle dia and spacing | 11:29 |
| chris_99 | how would you measure nozzle dia out of interest? | 11:29 |
| CaptHindsight | they even patent waveforms from driving the piezos | 11:29 |
| CaptHindsight | microscope | 11:30 |
| chris_99 | ah makes sense | 11:30 |
| CaptHindsight | from/for | 11:30 |
| CaptHindsight | which is interesting since you can RE the IO and the waveforms | 11:31 |
| CaptHindsight | so they could still file an infringement suit against you for using their waveform | 11:31 |
| chris_99 | darn | 11:31 |
| CaptHindsight | fun | 11:32 |
| CaptHindsight | some heads store the waveform in flash | 11:33 |
| CaptHindsight | so you just send the control signal to fire and a microcontroller outputs the pulse | 11:34 |
| chris_99 | i'm not sure what the technical name is for the container that has the cartridges and heads, but generally is the printer feeding analog signals to that part, or.. is it feeding digital and the analog conversion is done close to the piezo | 11:34 |
| xentrac | CaptHindsight: wow, congratulations. the printheads speak a data protocol? | 11:34 |
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| CaptHindsight | chris_99: depends on the head, Epson is piezo with a cartridge | 11:35 |
| CaptHindsight | most piezo don't use a cartridge they get bulk fed from a bottle | 11:36 |
| xentrac | I figured they just had piezos driven by wires (and that was why they had such a large number of contacts) | 11:36 |
| CaptHindsight | most other consumer inkjets are thermal | 11:36 |
| xentrac | I imagine piezo is more versatile | 11:36 |
| CaptHindsight | most piezo heads have internal drivers | 11:36 |
| xentrac | I had no idea | 11:36 |
| xentrac | so the waveform is generated internally and you don't have to worry about the patent? ;) | 11:37 |
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| CaptHindsight | xentrac: but the head needs to be programmed | 11:38 |
| CaptHindsight | so you'd need to find a head that already has the waveform stored in flash | 11:38 |
| CaptHindsight | and the waveform will vary slightly based on the fluid being jetted | 11:39 |
| CaptHindsight | Epson doesn't store a waveform | 11:39 |
| CaptHindsight | you send it nozzle on/off for each row and analog firing pulse | 11:40 |
| CautiousNarwhal | What chu guys talking about? | 11:40 |
| CaptHindsight | inkjet printheads | 11:41 |
| chris_99 | do you know what voltage range epson heads use out of interest, for the analog signal? | 11:42 |
| CaptHindsight | the printhead vendors also have licensing deals with printer makers... | 11:42 |
| CaptHindsight | so they want to know how the printhead is going to be used | 11:42 |
| CaptHindsight | they may get a million (or few) a year to corner a certain market like wide format graphics or labels | 11:43 |
| CaptHindsight | chris_99: I forget off the top my head but ~90V comes to mind | 11:44 |
| chris_99 | ah interesting, fairly high then | 11:44 |
| CaptHindsight | chris_99: the older Epson head in the POSAM was ~30V | 11:48 |
| CaptHindsight | "The clocking frequency used here is 500 kHz, though 3 MHz is possible. Digital signals are TTL- compatible and active high. The piezoelectric drive signal resembles a trapezoidal waveform, rising from 0V to 28V in 5μs, holding at 28V for 5μs, stepping up to 30V for 10μs, and falling back to 0V linearly over 20μs." | 11:49 |
| chris_99 | interesting! | 11:50 |
| CaptHindsight | we drive some piezos up to 200V | 11:50 |
| CaptHindsight | and at high speeds >100khz | 11:51 |
| CaptHindsight | so you get into some fancy high voltage opamp drivers | 11:51 |
| chris_99 | ah, do the piezos themselves not draw that much current i guess? | 11:52 |
| xentrac | piezos are basically capacitive devices | 11:53 |
| xentrac | the leakage current through a piezoelectric crystal is very small indeed | 11:53 |
| CaptHindsight | yeah you're driving capacitive loads at high frequency and voltage | 11:54 |
| CaptHindsight | so it's high instantaneous currents | 11:54 |
| xentrac | natural macroscopic electrical phenomena mostly fall into the categories of electromagnetic (<100V, >100 millicoulombs) and electrostatic (>1000V, <1 microcoulomb) with the occasional spectacular exception like lightning | 11:55 |
| xentrac | piezoelectricity is on the electrostatic side | 11:55 |
| xentrac | (consequently electromagnetic phenomena tend to happen at <1kHz and electrostatic at >1MHz) | 11:56 |
| xentrac | bridging the gap has involved a lot of human effort over the last couple of centuries | 11:56 |
| gnusha_ | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=229ee226 Bryan Bishop: include link about transaction fee estimation >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/transaction-fee-estimation/ | 11:57 |
| CaptHindsight | lets say you have 1nF per piezo and 1200 nozzles | 12:00 |
| CaptHindsight | you can easily require 12A per head at 40V | 12:01 |
| chris_99 | wow, are there m(any) op-amps that give that? | 12:01 |
| CaptHindsight | 480W op-amp | 12:02 |
| kanzure | i think you mean (m)any | 12:03 |
| xentrac | pitnicking | 12:04 |
| chris_99 | i do heh | 12:04 |
| kanzure | true :-) | 12:04 |
| xentrac | so I see why they have internal drivers | 12:04 |
| xentrac | presumably internally they have a big capacitor so you don't have to feed them a big spiky current | 12:05 |
| CaptHindsight | no, you do | 12:05 |
| xentrac | really? 12 amps average but more like 120 amps at peak? | 12:05 |
| CaptHindsight | the big capacitance is from 1200 nozzles firing at once | 12:06 |
| CaptHindsight | or it could be just one nozzle... | 12:06 |
| xentrac | sure, but I mean I would expect a big bypass cap on the power pins of the driver chip | 12:06 |
| CaptHindsight | or any combo from line to line | 12:06 |
| CaptHindsight | the heads with lots of nozzles won't have an internal driver | 12:07 |
| xentrac | just 1200 pins you have to feed the full-current waveform into? doesn't that result in a lot of crosstalk? | 12:10 |
| CaptHindsight | depends on the head design. most of the crosstalk is in shared wall designs like Xaar | 12:12 |
| CaptHindsight | you won't see much with Dimatix, Kyocera or RPSA | 12:12 |
| FourFire | kanzure, thoughts on http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RR1200/RR1231/RAND_RR1231.pdf ? | 12:25 |
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| kanzure | FourFire: major red flag is the document does not contain a mention of "sybil resistance" or "sybil attack" | 12:28 |
| kanzure | i also don't see a mention of selfish mining | 12:28 |
| AdrianG | so are you saying they didnt do their homework? | 12:29 |
| kanzure | i see coinjoin mentioned but not coinswap or any of the other schemes | 12:29 |
| kanzure | they do however mention SNARKs, that's kinda nice i guess, but they don't mention the vntinyram vulnerability | 12:29 |
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| kanzure | they mention hashrate cartel formation, so at least they are aware of that.... | 12:31 |
| kanzure | and denial-of-service stuff...... | 12:31 |
| kanzure | 51% is sorta overstating it | 12:33 |
| kanzure | meh. i think better vulnerabilities are more well-known already. | 12:33 |
| kanzure | okay that is my assessment. | 12:33 |
| FourFire | > however, a lot of this is moot because of (undisclosed reasons that would make everyone smile so hard they would die) | 12:33 |
| FourFire | >i highly encourage everyone to always grab the logs | 12:33 |
| FourFire | I'm smiling pretty hard | 12:33 |
| FourFire | > andares> Fortunately, all the malicious lone wolves have been stupid or not technically inclined | 12:37 |
| FourFire | > "The minimum IQ required to destroy the world falls by one per year" | 12:37 |
| kanzure | the earth does not ask you what your iq is just before you destroy it | 12:40 |
| FourFire | Deku-shrub, Hi, your chart is missing fans of Artifical biology (should be inside self modificationists) | 12:41 |
| Deku-shrub | the outer most section? | 12:42 |
| Deku-shrub | also I don't really know what it means to be fan of artificial biology, could you fill me in? | 12:42 |
| FourFire | > <AdrianG> i am convinced that everyone who self-medicates in hopes of improving one self in some way - is transcending their current condition. | 12:45 |
| FourFire | > anyone who wears shoes | 12:45 |
| FourFire | >transhuman | 12:45 |
| Deku-shrub | my collegue who wears glasses happily calls himself a cyborg :) | 12:45 |
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| JayDugger | FourFire, skip most of the RAND report and read pages 67-70. Then look at the price tag on the back cover. | 12:52 |
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| CautiousNarwhal | Have any of you successfully built a god helmet? | 13:02 |
| kanzure | superkuh was working on an reptitive transcranial magnetic stimulation device at some point, but i don't recall anything abou a helmet. | 13:03 |
| CautiousNarwhal | Same thing you just put it on a helmet so it can be a long lasting effect | 13:04 |
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| CautiousNarwhal | I want to build a transcranial magnetic stimulation device but have no idea where to start | 13:04 |
| superkuh | Do you have experience with high voltage? | 13:04 |
| chris_99 | ben krasnow built one | 13:04 |
| kanzure | you should also consider ultrasound instead of magnetism | 13:05 |
| superkuh | I second kanzure's suggestion. | 13:05 |
| CautiousNarwhal | Ultrasound stimulation? Never heard of that being used | 13:05 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound/ | 13:06 |
| FourFire | CautiousNarwhal, if you aren't going to start immediately, look into OpenBCI's tDCS shield | 13:06 |
| FourFire | should be purchaseable about 8 months into 2016... | 13:06 |
| FourFire | I don't know anything about TMS. | 13:07 |
| CautiousNarwhal | Radical! thanks guys | 13:10 |
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| CautiousNarwhal | So whats the benefits of using ultrasound over magnetics? | 13:18 |
| kanzure | no high voltage | 13:18 |
| CautiousNarwhal | Makes sense | 13:19 |
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| superkuh | You're more likely to kill yourself building a TMS device and more likely to damage your brain with ultrasound. | 13:36 |
| superkuh | Ultrasound can also be used far easier in arrays for deep brain stimulation. | 13:36 |
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| superkuh | With TMS you're always going to get peak induced field right on the outside. | 13:37 |
| superkuh | No matter what you do array wise. | 13:37 |
| CautiousNarwhal | Lol choices killing myself or damaging my brain | 13:38 |
| chris_99 | CautiousNarwhal, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUW7dQ92yDU | 13:40 |
| chris_99 | (apparently his day job was working with TMS though) | 13:41 |
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| kanzure | .title | 13:42 |
| yoleaux | Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation project - part 1 - YouTube | 13:42 |
| kanzure | ultrasound brain damage can be prevented by not ultrasounding your own brain- just use chunks of grocery store meat or something. | 13:43 |
| kanzure | not all brain damage is bad | 13:43 |
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| Diablo-D3 | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/12/30/ian_murdock_debian_founder/ | 14:07 |
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| CautiousNarwhal | Just noticed this iirc doesnt have a subreddit | 14:28 |
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| eudoxia | people here are philosophically opposed to reddit | 14:56 |
| kanzure | thank you. | 14:57 |
| Deku-shrub | http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Reddit | 14:57 |
| eudoxia | >tfw the hpluspedia and my/colin's h+ wiki project didn't pan out | 14:58 |
| kanzure | most redditors get banned, they tend to have broken ideas and i don't have time to fix that | 14:58 |
| Deku-shrub | you made the first humanity plus wiki did you? I was wondering about that | 14:58 |
| eudoxia | not the first | 14:58 |
| eudoxia | the first *good* one | 14:59 |
| eudoxia | http://wiki.transhumani.com/ those were the days | 14:59 |
| kanzure | hplusroadmap wiki was better than all the rest | 14:59 |
| Deku-shrub | can you contribute this h+pedia? :) | 14:59 |
| eudoxia | sure why not | 14:59 |
| eudoxia | i was really proud of the whole brain emulation article, god damn, that was quality | 14:59 |
| eudoxia | too bad you can't see it because the pages don't render anymore | 14:59 |
| kanzure | this one was okay http://diyhpl.us/wiki/nanotech/molecular-manufacturing/ | 14:59 |
| eudoxia | i think i never finished converting it from wiki markup | 15:00 |
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| Deku-shrub | is there a history of that H+ logo? I have not seen it before | 15:01 |
| eudoxia | Deku-shrub: roughly, I was on IRC with Aurelius_Home and he said 'we ought to have a logo' | 15:01 |
| eudoxia | I nodded, wisely | 15:01 |
| eudoxia | and put that crap together in Inkscape | 15:01 |
| eudoxia | it's the hbar character (ħ) but stretched or something, I don't know where I left the .svg | 15:02 |
| eudoxia | he put it in a hexagon because hexagons=future | 15:02 |
| Deku-shrub | TPUK has a hexagon | 15:03 |
| Deku-shrub | here is a list of H+logos http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Category:Transhumanist_iconography | 15:03 |
| Deku-shrub | and extended jargon! http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/H%2B | 15:03 |
| * Deku-shrub likes documented things | 15:04 | |
| eudoxia | I like this wiki | 15:04 |
| eudoxia | it has far more content than our old wiki | 15:04 |
| Deku-shrub | hurrah | 15:04 |
| Deku-shrub | there are actually a couple of futurist wikis with more general content, I am in touch with both of their owners to steal them, their users and their content | 15:05 |
| Deku-shrub | good response so far | 15:05 |
| eudoxia | that is a good approach | 15:05 |
| eudoxia | I believe we didn't really push the pedal to the metal on the advertising department | 15:05 |
| Deku-shrub | well the transhumanist community literally won't build itself | 15:06 |
| eudoxia | what do you mean | 15:06 |
| Deku-shrub | need lots of people using it as a read-only resource before people will edit and contribute too | 15:06 |
| eudoxia | ah yes | 15:06 |
| Deku-shrub | I mean transhumanists are very disorganised with only small pockets of activity and large alliances of vapour | 15:07 |
| eudoxia | i saw people link to it a couple of times in the googlies | 15:07 |
| eudoxia | with ye olde "example.com" -site:example.com trick | 15:07 |
| Deku-shrub | cool | 15:07 |
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| Deku-shrub | what's the difference between eudoxia and http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Eudoxa ? | 15:09 |
| eudoxia | i'm a person and that's a swedish think thank that Anders Sandberg was/is a member of | 15:09 |
| eudoxia | I assure you I am not an AGI created by said think-tank | 15:10 |
| chris_99 | hehe | 15:10 |
| pompolic | nice try AGI | 15:10 |
| eudoxia | you didn't see nothing | 15:11 |
| eudoxia | so anyways | 15:11 |
| Deku-shrub | apparently it's still a thing depite having no working website so I am confused on that point | 15:11 |
| eudoxia | there's lots of stuff to rescue from the transhumani.com wiki | 15:11 |
| eudoxia | I had a lot of good QuteMol renderings of mechanosynthetic tooltips I want to grab | 15:12 |
| Deku-shrub | oh I see it's there in the view-source | 15:12 |
| eudoxia | but I can't find the files ;_; | 15:12 |
| Deku-shrub | looking at http://wiki.transhumani.com/index.php?title=Special:AllPages | 15:12 |
| eudoxia | a number of these were basically just titles | 15:12 |
| eudoxia | I never wrote the dyson sphere article | 15:12 |
| Deku-shrub | I prefer red links over empty pages | 15:13 |
| eudoxia | I wrote the officially authorized kanzure bio ):3 http://wiki.transhumani.com/index.php?title=Bryan_Bishop&action=edit | 15:13 |
| Deku-shrub | because that way you can work out what pages are worth writing because they have lots of incoming red links | 15:13 |
| eudoxia | that is probably better approach that 'make a one-sentence stub' | 15:13 |
| eudoxia | 'just pretend we have content' | 15:13 |
| Deku-shrub | I am willing to import/merge all the content right now, may I? | 15:14 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: btw i dropped out of university at some point. probably 2010 or earlier. | 15:14 |
| kanzure | also i worked in three labs for some reason, not one. | 15:14 |
| Deku-shrub | is 'Diy transhumanism' synonymous with 'Biohacking'? | 15:15 |
| kanzure | the people over at https://groups.google.com/group/diybio would probably disagree | 15:15 |
| eudoxia | Deku-shrub: sure go ahead, mind you there are some templates i made | 15:15 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: I will correct it when Deku-shrub imports it to hpluspedia | 15:16 |
| Deku-shrub | http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Bishop | 15:18 |
| CautiousNarwhal | Opposed to voat too? | 15:18 |
| Deku-shrub | CautiousNarwhal - I am trying to get a decent handle on transhumanists on Reddit and get them organised, some info here http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Reddit | 15:19 |
| kanzure | why are you trying to do that | 15:20 |
| Deku-shrub | if you are going to tell me it's a waste of time I won't explain :p | 15:20 |
| CautiousNarwhal | Voat is cool too | 15:21 |
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| AdrianG | are most transhumanists total individualists? | 15:24 |
| eudoxia | Deku-shrub: thanks for doing this btw. I tried to set up a local MediaWiki and import the content manually to update some things, but I failed miserably. This is going to be a great help | 15:25 |
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| Deku-shrub | you can watch recent changes as I import things http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges | 15:26 |
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| eudoxia | ah yes there's an article on furries | 15:27 |
| eudoxia | it's good to be well-rounded | 15:27 |
| Deku-shrub | we have a furry editor so... | 15:27 |
| Deku-shrub | apparently there is posthumanist furries | 15:27 |
| eudoxia | i think the h+ fiction article was pretty good | 15:28 |
| eudoxia | had a good collection of books and short stories | 15:28 |
| eudoxia | lots of cover images that probably violated copyright law | 15:28 |
| eudoxia | actually most of that wiki probably violated copyright law | 15:28 |
| Deku-shrub | fair use covers reviews :) | 15:28 |
| eudoxia | yes | 15:29 |
| eudoxia | not so sure about e.g. literally all the other pictures that weren't reviews | 15:29 |
| eudoxia | we had a really cavalier copyright policy, partying like it has 1929 | 15:30 |
| Deku-shrub | btw I don't allow subheadings without content or 'write me' placeholders, they will be removed and maybe placed on the talk pages as notes | 15:30 |
| eudoxia | yes sure that's fine | 15:30 |
| atomical | can we ban |node? he's annoying the fuck out of me with his private messages. | 15:30 |
| Deku-shrub | I have been involved in pirate party uk for 6 years now, you might imagine my perspective :) | 15:30 |
| eudoxia | Deku-shrub: keep on keeping on man | 15:30 |
| atomical | isn't that called digital hoarding? | 15:31 |
| Deku-shrub | I used to hoard data, e.g. downloaded films, but I realised I could download it again faster than I could search a physical collection | 15:31 |
| kanzure | maybe you suck at search? | 15:32 |
| Deku-shrub | labeling is where I can't be bothered | 15:32 |
| Deku-shrub | then I need to keep a digital index of the lables and map it to the physical media | 15:32 |
| atomical | physical collections are for professional hoarders with bad taste | 15:32 |
| eudoxia | after autistically organizing my ~/images/ directory i realized hierarchical filesystems suck and we should all use tagging filesystems | 15:32 |
| atomical | you never find good movies, just a bunch of jackie chan and arnold movies | 15:32 |
| Deku-shrub | I hope to make a fake book case with textured curved book spines in the future | 15:32 |
| eudoxia | also maintaining symbolic links is trrible | 15:33 |
| * kanzure looks at the channel | 15:37 | |
| kanzure | hplusroadmap is at 99 seconds per second | 15:37 |
| Deku-shrub | where do you think AI reseachers and relevent neurologists fit on my diagram? futurists? http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_futurist_related_ideologies | 15:37 |
| eudoxia | not reaaaaly | 15:38 |
| eudoxia | adjacent experts | 15:39 |
| Deku-shrub | can place them on edges or multiple zones | 15:39 |
| eudoxia | >Mailer returned: Unknown error in PHP's mail() function. | 15:39 |
| eudoxia | thanks MediaWiki | 15:39 |
| docl | where does wanting to make self replicating factories to get the dyson sphere thing rolling put me? | 15:39 |
| Deku-shrub | futurist | 15:39 |
| Deku-shrub | edging post humanist | 15:39 |
| kanzure | i think your classification attempt is evil | 15:39 |
| Deku-shrub | most likely a flavour of transhumanist | 15:39 |
| eudoxia | ehhhh | 15:40 |
| eudoxia | that's a weird ontology | 15:40 |
| * Deku-shrub is unstoppable | 15:40 | |
| kanzure | well i can certainly ban you | 15:40 |
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| eudoxia | e.g. Eugen Leitl is a transhumanist but he's a pessimist peak-oilist | 15:40 |
| * Deku-shrub is almost unstoppable | 15:40 | |
| docl | eugen is great, other than that | 15:40 |
| kanzure | ideology is retarded | 15:40 |
| eudoxia | you can want to do the dyson sphere thing and still think collapse and hyperinflation are right around the corner | 15:40 |
| AdrianG | peak oil is indeed a big problem. | 15:41 |
| AdrianG | if we run out of carbon to burn, how can we stave off ice age, and green fertilizer, CO2 for trees/etc/biota? | 15:42 |
| kanzure | an ice age isn't really that bad | 15:42 |
| eudoxia | >mfw MediaWiki can't send email and i can't edit pages without confirming email | 15:42 |
| AdrianG | kanzure: it sucks. you should visit canada in winter. | 15:42 |
| kanzure | you are talking to a bunch of people who would shrug about existing as uploads around a neutron star or something, an ice age is not the end of the world | 15:42 |
| AdrianG | that neutron star upload will take some time. | 15:43 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: that version of mediawiki is old enough for you to go find a working exploit against it. | 15:43 |
| AdrianG | until then, i much prefer not to freeze to death, if possible. | 15:43 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: use an exploit and do what you need to do | 15:43 |
| docl | by my calculations, a dyson sphere takes about 75 years. | 15:43 |
| eudoxia | oh my god kanz, i'm not gonna use an exploit, that's rude | 15:43 |
| kanzure | then i am the rudest of them all | 15:44 |
| eudoxia | hey Deku-shrub can you use your God-like powers of MediaWiki administration to bump me into confirmed users somehow | 15:44 |
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| eudoxia | dis me http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/User:Eudoxia | 15:44 |
| AdrianG | docl: so in the city where I live, a central station has been recently sort of refurbished | 15:44 |
| AdrianG | took 5 years and 2 billion dollars | 15:44 |
| Deku-shrub | autoconfirming not working? | 15:45 |
| eudoxia | it's fucked | 15:45 |
| eudoxia | it can't send me my confirmation email | 15:45 |
| Deku-shrub | I will have to look into that | 15:45 |
| Deku-shrub | I didn't set up the back end of the site btw, it needs some general tech stuff still | 15:46 |
| eudoxia | yeah neither did we, it was some cpanel crap | 15:46 |
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| eudoxia | turned out that was a bad idea :^) | 15:47 |
| kanzure | the guy's a pirate, he's not going to too thoroughly revenge hack you | 15:47 |
| docl | AdrianG: they should have invested that money in self replicating robots instead, obviously :P | 15:48 |
| AdrianG | you could probably launch that entire station into the orbit on that budget. | 15:52 |
| docl | 2.54 x 10^22 square meters is the surface area of a sphere at 0.3 AU. that's a little under 2^75. so you can in principle get there by starting with a rinkydink square meter (10kW of power at that distance) and doubling it once per year. | 15:54 |
| docl | funny thing is, the moon is only 20 doublings less expensive, at 2^55 square meters | 15:55 |
| eudoxia | i've been thinking about replicators | 15:56 |
| eudoxia | shame you would need to use macroscale manufacturing | 15:56 |
| eudoxia | since hydrocarbon mechanosynthesis obviously doesnt work on a world that's a sphere of iron | 15:56 |
| docl | (er, I remembered that wrong. it's more like 2^45.) | 15:59 |
| docl | macroscale should be enough for year-long doubling times though, shouldn't it? | 15:59 |
| eudoxia | yeah, i think so, but still it's a fairly heavy industry you have to replicate, as opposed to a hydrocarbon assembler where you can literally turn the smell of putrefaction into diamonds | 16:00 |
| docl | either way you do it, the first step is likely to be a good quality vacuum chamber I think. | 16:01 |
| eudoxia | i think for DMS you an get by in a shitty vacuum chamber by, as Freitas described, walling off a micro-wide work area (this only works when bootstrapping), and once you have full-blown MNT perfect vacuum chambers are cheap | 16:02 |
| eudoxia | micron* | 16:04 |
| docl | I think MNT is too complicated and little understood. macro machines are all over the place already, with lots of detailed literature about how they work. we can optimize our way to MNT after we secure sufficient resources for this purpose. | 16:05 |
| eudoxia | yeah probably | 16:05 |
| eudoxia | one think I think Merkle and Freitas should work on is: once you have the minimal toolset hanging from your AFM tooltips, where do you go next? ie, step one is build better tips, step two is build a wall around the work area, step three more reactive tips, etc. | 16:06 |
| eudoxia | like a roadmap from the minimal toolset to a computer-controlled hydrocarbon assembler | 16:07 |
| docl | no need to jump straight to Mercury, or even lunar -- could start with c-type asteroids (some fragments of which are probably in near earth orbits, so realtime teleoperation is possible) | 16:07 |
| Deku-shrub | what are the thoughts on Musk being nominated for luddite of the year? | 16:09 |
| eudoxia | clickbait | 16:09 |
| Deku-shrub | I'm wondering whether to write attack articles at the org who did this | 16:10 |
| Deku-shrub | trying to get a more coherant position on AI from transhumanists in general | 16:10 |
| docl | silly imo, he's just repeating what bostrom and so on have been warning about for decades. it's not even new -- IJ Good mentioned the intelligence explosion in 1965. | 16:10 |
| Deku-shrub | he, Gates and Hawking coordinated their message though, they clearly wanted to be heard | 16:11 |
| eudoxia | AI going FOOM is pretty low on my list of worries | 16:11 |
| eudoxia | i'm more worried about piranhas | 16:11 |
| Deku-shrub | I worry a lot about transhumanist PR, mainly this means Zoltan control | 16:11 |
| Deku-shrub | but occasionally things like this | 16:11 |
| eudoxia | haha i know what you mean | 16:12 |
| docl | yudkowsky's whole deal at lesswrong (the reason he wanted to train up rationalists urgently) was mostly about this topic. the new publicity is mostly inspired by bostrom's new book, I think. | 16:12 |
| Deku-shrub | eudoxia - some of those wiki pages are ridiculously long you know | 16:13 |
| eudoxia | yes | 16:13 |
| eudoxia | but specifically which | 16:13 |
| Deku-shrub | sometimes combining research resources with an overview is not the way to go | 16:14 |
| docl | but partly caused by MIRI's rise as an organization, which was related to lesswrong's growth as a community. | 16:14 |
| Deku-shrub | I'll write up an action plan for wikification and copy-editing when I'm done with the raw import | 16:14 |
| eudoxia | when people talk about UFAI and the singularity I just think of this picture https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0062/57/1426207376639.png | 16:14 |
| eudoxia | >metabolic disprivilege | 16:15 |
| Deku-shrub | when H+Pedia has its shit sufficiently together I will spam Less Wrong with it | 16:17 |
| Deku-shrub | today is not that day | 16:17 |
| Deku-shrub | my theory about Dale Carrico is that he thinks all transhumanists are libertarians | 16:20 |
| eudoxia | he is an idiot | 16:21 |
| eudoxia | I was too charitable in that article | 16:21 |
| eudoxia | don't bother porting it | 16:21 |
| Deku-shrub | no I want to get all the critics | 16:21 |
| eudoxia | ok | 16:21 |
| Deku-shrub | because the are nearly all critcising straw men | 16:21 |
| eudoxia | yes i would expect more from a PhD in rhetoric | 16:22 |
| Deku-shrub | even if I had to stuff and mount the straw men myself to illustrate it | 16:22 |
| Deku-shrub | http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Category:Opposition_to_transhumanism | 16:22 |
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| docl | eudoxia: speaking of diamond synthesis, I was discussing this with xentrac a few days ago and it's apparently possible to do CVD diamonds with a relatively moderate vacuum (a sprengel pump can do it). I think it might be possible to design a vacuum chamber based 3d printer that makes microscale stuff out of diamond, if not nanoscale already. | 16:30 |
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| eudoxia | docl: i read the part of the logs, i think | 16:35 |
| eudoxia | that would certainly be an interesting project | 16:35 |
| eudoxia | i wonder if you can do diamond CVD on a germanium surface, and then etch it away | 16:36 |
| eudoxia | so you can get a floating component like a rotor or a bearing | 16:36 |
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| eudoxia_ | docl: have you looked into patterned atomic layer epitaxy? this is what zyvex was or is doing and is more or less what you suggest but with an STM | 16:39 |
| eudoxia_ | you sweep a diamond surface with an STM tip to pull out the terminating hydrogens, then will the chamber with sylylene gas and it deposits into a new layer. repeat infinitely and you have a machine part, and that's where i heard about using germanium as a base layer for free-floating parts | 16:40 |
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| docl | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_vapor_deposition links to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_layer_epitaxy | 16:44 |
| docl | here we go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epitaxy | 16:45 |
| eudoxia_ | last i heard (2015?) they were having problems with STM imprecision and weird side reactions around the edges of the shapes | 16:47 |
| eudoxia_ | i think they're working at room temperature | 16:47 |
| docl | wonder if lower temperatures are needed? of course, the CVD process for diamond growing is a high temperature one. | 16:48 |
| eudoxia_ | now that you mention it i'm not sure it's possible at low temperature | 16:48 |
| eudoxia_ | hmm | 16:48 |
| eudoxia_ | i suppose it depends on how the hydrogen abstraction changes the temperature of the material and what the temperature change associated with the deposition process is like | 16:49 |
| eudoxia_ | their latest thing is a video in this """"""""journal"""""""" where they use videos instead of papers #web2.0 #kidz #teen http://www.jove.com/video/52900/atomically-traceable-nanostructure-fabrication | 16:50 |
| docl | could you maybe burst a laser pulse at it to warm up the surface just in time? or use a particle beam to deliver the carbon at high "temperature" to a cold substrate? | 16:51 |
| eudoxia_ | i don't know enough about light to answer the first part of that question | 16:51 |
| eudoxia_ | though i have often wondered if you could use lasers and electric fields to guide atoms into place, like mechanosynthesis but you don't need to move a million-atom robot arm to deposit one atom | 16:52 |
| docl | maybe use phased array optics to achieve the needed precision? | 16:54 |
| eudoxia_ | i am completely ignorant on this so sure, why not | 16:56 |
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| docl | oh, you need to read bryan wowk's article on that. | 16:57 |
| docl | http://www.phased-array.com/1996-Book-Chapter.html | 16:57 |
| docl | .title | 16:57 |
| yoleaux | Phased Array Optics | 16:57 |
| kanzure | optical traps are a thing that exists and they do things | 16:58 |
| eudoxia_ | i vaguely remember phased-array optics being this old Drexlerian "can only be built with MNT" concept that sort of became mainstream through regular manufacturing | 16:58 |
| kanzure | .wik optical trap | 16:58 |
| yoleaux | "Optical tweezers (originally called "single-beam gradient force trap") are scientific instruments that use a highly focused laser beam to provide an attractive or repulsive force (typically on the order of piconewtons), depending on the refractive index mismatch to physically hold and move microscopic dielectric objects similar to tweezers." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_trap | 16:58 |
| kanzure | unfortunately this subfield of science is dominated by formidable thor catalogs | 16:58 |
| eudoxia_ | http://www.phased-array.com/1996-Book-Chapter.html | 16:59 |
| eudoxia_ | >The year is 2020. | 16:59 |
| eudoxia_ | yeah I wish buddy | 16:59 |
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| docl | so his speculations about the future *must* have already come true by now, right? | 17:00 |
| eudoxia_ | ? | 17:00 |
| docl | I'm kidding | 17:00 |
| eudoxia_ | the hundred-micron box of rod logic is a cute anachronism | 17:01 |
| eudoxia_ | sort-of retrofuturist | 17:01 |
| kanzure | i think xentrac has one of those | 17:01 |
| eudoxia_ | must be hard to wire it up | 17:02 |
| Deku-shrub | Import report: http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/H%2BPedia:Transhumani_merger | 17:05 |
| docl | optical fibers are a really interesting thing from a bootstrap perspective. you start out with these big thick preforms (which can be printed now), then draw them out mechanically, and they get narrowed down to precise diameters measured in nanometers. | 17:09 |
| eudoxia_ | Deku-shrub: yey it's up | 17:10 |
| eudoxia_ | i'm gonna have to see if i can pull the files | 17:10 |
| eudoxia_ | huh | 17:12 |
| eudoxia_ | i don't recognize this girl http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Whole_Brain_Emulation#Virtual_Worlds | 17:12 |
| Deku-shrub | I think it pulled from wikipedia commons some how | 17:13 |
| eudoxia_ | oh no | 17:13 |
| eudoxia_ | i used the filename SL.jpg | 17:13 |
| eudoxia_ | for Second Life | 17:13 |
| Deku-shrub | I have a page on Second life :) http://hpluspedia.org/wiki/Second_Life | 17:18 |
| Deku-shrub | I installed Second life just to make the page | 17:18 |
| eudoxia_ | hah | 17:18 |
| eudoxia_ | for the screenshot? | 17:18 |
| eudoxia_ | i just pulled something from google | 17:18 |
| Deku-shrub | right, time to sleep | 17:19 |
| docl | http://cgp.anu.edu.au/research-streams/research-spacetech/gracefo/optical-phased-array/ | 17:19 |
| CautiousNarwhal | Gnight! | 17:19 |
| Deku-shrub | this is the H+Peida facebook group if you want to join for updates | 17:19 |
| Deku-shrub | https://www.facebook.com/groups/Hpluspedia/1098356076855811/?notif_t=like | 17:19 |
| eudoxia_ | good night | 17:19 |
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| eudoxia_ | the GRACE video is interesting thanks docl | 17:25 |
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| docl | here's a more general overview of phased arrays: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtPPAnvJS6c | 17:34 |
| eudoxia_ | problem is most photons are pretty big | 17:35 |
| eudoxia_ | tiny photons are more expensive to make | 17:35 |
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| kanzure | .title | 17:59 |
| yoleaux | Phased Array Antennas - YouTube | 17:59 |
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| kanzure | .wik gosplan | 18:30 |
| yoleaux | "The State Planning Committee, commonly known as Gosplan (Russian: Госпла́н, pronounced [ɡɐsˈplan]), was the agency responsible for central economic planning in the Soviet Union." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gosplan | 18:30 |
| kanzure | why can't i find any links to any of the actual plans? | 18:30 |
| kanzure | the soviet union was around when the web was invented, come on | 18:30 |
| kanzure | and at least usenet | 18:31 |
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| kanzure | .title http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cne.21974/abstract | 19:31 |
| yoleaux | Equal numbers of neuronal and nonneuronal cells make the human brain an isometrically scaled-up primate brain - Azevedo - 2009 - Journal of Comparative Neurology - Wiley Online Library | 19:31 |
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| kanzure | "Adults of these species retain multipotent (see cell potency) neural stem cells in the subventricular zone of the lateral ventricles and subgranular zone of the dentate gyrus.[319][320]" | 19:39 |
| kanzure | from http://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(08)00134-7 i guess | 19:39 |
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| kanzure | gasp someone bothered to document inputs/outputs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_coeruleus#Inputs | 19:44 |
| kanzure | from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_in_the_human_brain#Neural_pathways or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_pathway#Major_neural_pathways | 19:44 |
| kanzure | brain slice images with actual labels and annotation http://brainmaps.org/ajax-viewer.php?datid=2&sname=0400&hname=lateral%20tuberal%20nucleus&hlabel=TU | 19:47 |
| kanzure | http://brainmaps.org/ajax-viewer.php?datid=43&sname=m10a&hname=primary%20somatosensory%20cortex&hlabel=S1 | 19:52 |
| kanzure | what was the paper with the manually-created connection diagram from anatomical knowledge? | 19:54 |
| kanzure | it wasn't this one http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Imaging%20human%20connectomes%20at%20the%20macroscale.pdf | 19:54 |
| kanzure | ah here we go, | 19:55 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Cognitive%20consilience:%20Primate%20non-primary%20neuroanatomical%20circuits%20underlying%20cognition%20-%202011.pdf | 19:55 |
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| kanzure | wha? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Studying%20cerebellar%20circuits%20by%20remote%20control%20of%20selected%20neuronal%20types%20with%20GABA.pdf | 19:57 |
| kanzure | (zolpidem == ambien) | 19:58 |
| kanzure | the only interesting paper that cites the "cognitive consilience" paper is... adam marblestone's thesis -_-. | 19:59 |
| kanzure | the author got a patent on... intelligence? | 20:01 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.google.com/patents/US20140067740 | 20:01 |
| yoleaux | Patent US20140067740 - Computer-implemented simulated intelligence capabilities by ... - Google Patents | 20:01 |
| kanzure | "We introduce a data-driven prediction for laminar projections between any two cortical areas in the human brain. Today, no safe experimental technique is capable of verifying laminar projections in the human. Yet by connecting and integrating previously unconnected research we arrive at very precise hypothesis with significant functional consequences in the human brain." | 20:03 |
| kanzure | https://www.linkedin.com/in/soren-solari-95b996b | 20:05 |
| kanzure | "A unified anatomical theory and computational model of cognitive information processing in the mammalian brain and the introduction of DNA reco codes" | 20:08 |
| kanzure | hmm he hired this person https://github.com/AndrewTSmith | 20:09 |
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| kanzure | the description of his phd thesis for some reason references this totally other thing called "confabulation" | 20:16 |
| kanzure | "Movement relies on the deliberate, smooth, properly sequenced and coordinated, graded, contractions of selected ensembles of discrete muscles. Therefore, the neural circuitry of movement was specialized for this purpose. Soon, a new design possibility emerged: the elaborate neuronal machinery of movement control could be applied to brain tissue itself. In particular, discrete brain structures, modules, emerged that could be controlled ... | 20:16 |
| kanzure | ... exactly like individual muscles. By manipulating these modules in properly coordinated 'movements' (thought processes), valuable information processing (cognition) could be carried out – thereby further enhancing animal competitive success and diversity." | 20:16 |
| kanzure | http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Confabulation_theory_(computational_intelligence) | 20:16 |
| kanzure | why on earth would anyone use this terminology (symbols? really?) | 20:17 |
| kanzure | "Reviewed by: Dr. Soren Solari, University of California, San Diego, CA" isn't that cheating | 20:22 |
| kanzure | this movement stuff sounds more likely to be an explanation why he keeps falling out of his chair when he tries to think | 20:24 |
| kanzure | did oreilly give any reason for not extending his ocr simulator? | 20:32 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20080516082119/http://r.ucsd.edu/ | 20:47 |
| kanzure | "The Swartz Foundation for Computational Neuroscience" http://www.theswartzfoundation.org/ | 20:48 |
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| kanzure | haha steve jurvetson http://cognitivecomputing2007.berkeley.edu/CognitiveComputing2007Video.htm | 20:51 |
| kanzure | weird how we don't hear so much about the third one (draper2 is running around doing bitcoin things because he wants to be iron man or something) | 20:51 |
| docl | http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/29/10642070/2015-theranos-venture-capital-tech-bubble-disruption | 21:26 |
| kanzure | iirc fenn's criticism was something like "reviewing existing neuroanatomy literature is going to be pointless because only high-resolution connectomics stuff will show the actual relevant connections" (when i first showed him that "cognitive consilience" paper). | 21:36 |
| kanzure | this does not seem entirely defensible | 21:36 |
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