| --- Log opened Thu Jan 28 00:00:17 2016 | ||
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| -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by lobsters everywhere, banned by the Federal Death Administration (5 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | "ray kurzweil is a pessimist" - george church | 00:18 | |
| -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@unaffiliated/kanzure] [Wed May 20 12:46:25 2015] | 00:18 | |
| [Users ##hplusroadmap] | 00:18 | |
| [ _hanhart ] [ BobaMa ] [ EnabrinTain ] [ jrayhawk ] [ nmz787 ] [ strages ] | 00:18 | |
| [ _Sol_ ] [ btcdrak ] [ enkiv2 ] [ jron ] [ nnnn20430 ] [ strangewarp] | 00:18 | |
| [ a7b9d6e6 ] [ Burn_ ] [ esmerelda ] [ juri_ ] [ nsh ] [ streety ] | 00:18 | |
| [ abetusk ] [ c0rw1n ] [ fenn ] [ justanotheruser] [ pasky ] [ Stskeeps ] | 00:18 | |
| [ AdrianG ] [ catern ] [ fleshtheworld] [ juul ] [ PatrickRobotham] [ superkuh ] | 00:18 | |
| [ Alcyius ] [ cluckj ] [ FourFire ] [ kanzure ] [ phm ] [ Taek ] | 00:18 | |
| [ amiller_ ] [ cpopell6 ] [ gnusha ] [ lkjhfr ] [ pompolic ] [ TeMPOraL ] | 00:18 | |
| [ andytoshi ] [ crescendo] [ gnusha_ ] [ m0b ] [ poohbear ] [ the8thbit ] | 00:18 | |
| [ archels_ ] [ Diablo-D3] [ heath ] [ maaku ] [ proofoflogic ] [ thundara_ ] | 00:18 | |
| [ ArturShaik] [ diginet ] [ helleshin ] [ Madars ] [ Proteus ] [ TMA ] | 00:18 | |
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| TMA | Alcyius: no training but common sense: there is finite amount of fossil fuels that are available. with a given consumption rate there is a point in the future where thy will no longer be available, while the expected availability of humans eager to consume will be undiminished at that time | 00:55 |
|---|---|---|
| TMA | s/thy/they/ | 00:56 |
| Alcyius | We're on the road to transition away anyways. I'm curious if it's even possible to remove CO2 at the rate necessary to counteract global warming | 00:56 |
| Alcyius | If we could remove the pollutants(a potential new method can extract CO2 and turn it into methanol), we could use that energy buffer to advance production of alternative energy sources | 00:57 |
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| xentrac | Yes, it's definitely possible to remove CO₂ at the rate necessary to counteract global warming. | 01:06 |
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| TMA | currently there are about 1e17 ounces of CO2 (3e15 kg) in the atmosphere [4.7e14 stone, 4.6e19 grain, 5.9e13 cwt(uk), 6.6 cwt(us), ... the imperial/customary system is crazy], while in the pre-industrial times there were less than 3/4 of that amount. | 01:25 |
| TMA | I have read somewhere that to counteract the global warming (as opposed to merely slowing it down) we would need to reduce CO2 way below 400 ppm | 01:29 |
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| Alcyius | http://phys.org/news/2016-01-carbon-dioxide-captured-air-methanol.html | 02:03 |
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| atomical | hi | 05:55 |
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| kanzure | pasky: i don't know what you're asking. i have absolutely no evidence that anything on my computer is an implementation of any equivalent information processing in bonobo cortex. | 07:56 |
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| pasky | I guess it's the old issue again; what does "intellectual level of a bonobo" mean when you aren't trying to implement bonobo (which I'd argue is boring and useless) | 08:11 |
| pasky | computers (as in, say, connectionist AI models, not calculators / databases) can do a lot of much more clever tasks than bonobos do | 08:12 |
| pasky | I have absolutely no evidence that the gaps between that and a bonobo are meaningfully hard | 08:12 |
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| phm | FFS. Computers can own at Go and I can't solve 6 captchas in a row. What is wrong with the world!? | 08:33 |
| kanzure | pasky: "computers can do more clever tasks". they are not clever. the design of the algorithm is clever, but you're falsey attributing this cleverness to the execution of that particular software. | 08:37 |
| kanzure | falsely | 08:38 |
| pasky | the design of the algorithm is surely clever (we would have came up with them long ago otherwise), but the resulting algorithm is also terribly *simple* and these tasks are very much learned behavior | 08:40 |
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| pasky | (it actually disappointed me; after some reflection on the paper, it appears to me that the main improvement is that google could and did throw gpu-years of computation time at the problem, after getting the basic design right) | 08:41 |
| kanzure | "computers can do a lot more of much more clever tasks" - the tasks are not clever, their design is, but the software itself did not construct that. :) | 08:41 |
| pasky | so how good are bonobos at constructing tasks? | 08:41 |
| kanzure | pasky: ehhhh don't be so disappointed; now that they know something that seems to work, perhaps they will find optimizations or something. maybe. | 08:41 |
| kanzure | wait, nevermind. disappointment is warranted. i shouldn't stop this :P. | 08:42 |
| pasky | not sure if "they", but everyone else involved has a strong motivation to do that ;) http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/2016-January/008524.html | 08:42 |
| kanzure | computer-go.org ... how ambiguous. | 08:43 |
| kanzure | golang people should call themselves golang people, not go people. | 08:43 |
| kanzure | and gogame people should be calling themselves gogame people. | 08:43 |
| atomical_ | i love golang | 08:44 |
| pasky | go should have picked a different name :P | 08:45 |
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| kanzure | "sincerely, - the department of violent disambiguation" | 08:45 |
| pasky | (the language, that is) | 08:45 |
| atomical_ | atomical-lang | 08:46 |
| atomical_ | they should have called it that | 08:46 |
| kanzure | pasky: i would not claim that bonobos are constructing tasks (maybe they are? i don't know.), but i would say that they do have some cognitive abilities that we don't seem yet to know how to implement in computers. | 08:48 |
| kanzure | although i will fully admit we probably know many of the necessary primitives. | 08:48 |
| kanzure | s/know/have | 08:48 |
| pasky | can you give a concrete example? honestly, i'm not sure about what that could be, i don't know that much about bonobos | 08:49 |
| kanzure | i feel like anything i say is going to be picked apart and reduced to absurd basic machine learning algorithms. | 08:53 |
| kanzure | there was that video of a bonobo participating in cooperative cooking with a human. | 08:54 |
| kanzure | .title http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0012438 | 08:56 |
| yoleaux | PLOS ONE: Differences in the Cognitive Skills of Bonobos and Chimpanzees | 08:56 |
| kanzure | hm this was not a useful paper. | 09:00 |
| pasky | i saw some videos of Kanzi and they look impressive but I don't know how much was learned just by immitation and how much was sort of "deduced/extrapolated" | 09:01 |
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| kanzure | i wonder what the indiebio people are up to. | 09:49 |
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| phm | Kanzure: Do you know where Eugen is and what he's doing? | 10:45 |
| kanzure | he was acquired by springerlink | 10:53 |
| phm | acquired? | 10:55 |
| phm | 'online delivery platform'? That's not his field...!? | 10:56 |
| phm | BTW: is there a torrent of all 6.4Gb of Springer math books they made available? | 10:58 |
| kanzure | there's no torrent but they made far more than 6.4 GB available. iirc a friendly got >500 GB. | 10:59 |
| phm | Nice. Got a list? | 10:59 |
| kanzure | nope | 11:00 |
| kanzure | at the moment there are no safe ways for these people to distribute this kind of data | 11:00 |
| phm | Can you get a list? | 11:00 |
| phm | safe? | 11:00 |
| kanzure | torrents are not safe | 11:00 |
| phm | what do you mean? | 11:00 |
| kanzure | springerlink was hacked. | 11:00 |
| phm | haha. shit. I didn't realise! | 11:01 |
| kanzure | well maybe not hacked. could have been an internal bug. | 11:01 |
| phm | Eugen did it.. | 11:01 |
| kanzure | pfft i wish | 11:01 |
| phm | Why not? | 11:01 |
| kanzure | he keeps refusing | 11:01 |
| phm | Sounds like something he would do | 11:01 |
| phm | refusing what? | 11:01 |
| kanzure | you are really bad at following conversations | 11:01 |
| kanzure | i am going to stop talking with you | 11:01 |
| phm | Is this chan 'safe'? Or are we already in trouble? | 11:01 |
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| phm | really. Why don't you kick me for 'trolling' you. hah. | 11:02 |
| phm | jrayhawk: ? | 11:02 |
| TMA | kanzure: is there a way for them to make it available on a tor hidden service? | 11:03 |
| kanzure | TMA: tor is not an efficient way to transfer this much data. | 11:03 |
| kanzure | TMA: also these guys would feel morally bad about abusing the tor network like that. | 11:04 |
| phm | You really think the feds are gonna come after us for sharing book? Come ON.. | 11:04 |
| phm | books | 11:04 |
| kanzure | http://www.plainsite.org/dockets/2lt9206gt/new-york-southern-district-court/elsevier-inc-et-al-v-scihub-et-al/ | 11:04 |
| phm | I mean, I know they murdered Aaron Swartz, but... | 11:05 |
| phm | He was high profile | 11:06 |
| TMA | kanzure: the only other thing that comes up to mind is distributing it encrypted as "random data from HW random generator for simulations" and delivering the key on a secure channel | 11:07 |
| phm | You really think we can't outwit the NSA? pffffft | 11:08 |
| c0rw1n | 5000G? could upload that to freenet | 11:12 |
| c0rw1n | *500G | 11:12 |
| TMA | phm: it is a funny thought experiment to try | 11:13 |
| phm | yeahhhh 'thought experiment' :-) | 11:14 |
| TMA | phm: well, I do not have the data and downloading for personal purposes is legal here | 11:17 |
| phm | What data? | 11:17 |
| TMA | any except for software | 11:18 |
| phm | I think legally it's a grey area | 11:18 |
| TMA | nay, it's explicitly in the law [there are limitations though -- but downloading single books shall be fine] | 11:19 |
| phm | If you say so. | 11:19 |
| TMA | there is even a scheme for payment for free space on disks/blank cd also for reprographic machines/... to cover this law mandated license | 11:21 |
| phm | I don't care about the law. I'm an anarchist. As long as they don't murder me, I'm happy. | 11:22 |
| cpopell6 | phm : I think outsmarting any government agency matters entirely on what part of said government agency you're dealing with | 11:25 |
| phm | The point is this: If you work for the gov, there is probably something wrong with your brain, so gov people are not going to be as smart as 'us' | 11:27 |
| cpopell6 | I disagree 'people who work for the government' is a generalizable class. | 11:29 |
| phm | Yeah, well I'm not going to provide any proof. | 11:30 |
| maaku | phm: don't troll | 11:35 |
| phm | lol | 11:35 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ | 11:36 | |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+q phm!*@*] by kanzure | 11:36 | |
| phm | here we go. | 11:36 |
| @kanzure | http://gnusha.org/logs/phm.log | 11:36 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure | 11:36 | |
| maaku | i worked for the government for 4 years | 11:36 |
| maaku | one of the best jobs i've ever had | 11:36 |
| kanzure | nasa doesn't count | 11:36 |
| maaku | :) | 11:37 |
| kanzure | buncha aliens and weirdos | 11:37 |
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| Diablo-D3 | https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/01/27/scientists-open-the-black-box-of-schizophrenia-with-dramatic-genetic-finding/?postshare=3091453948817165&tid=ss_tw-bottom | 13:45 |
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| kanzure | Diablo-D3: btw i am gonna kick/mute you sometime soon. just a heads up. | 13:55 |
| Diablo-D3 | because I posted a potentially interesting url about genetics in schizophrenics? | 13:56 |
| kanzure | because i have been meaning to do this for a few weeks now | 13:57 |
| kanzure | and i am on a streak today | 13:57 |
| Alcyius | My psychologist is recommending Cymbalta or Wellbutrin. Anyone have experience with those? I know cymbalta has nasty withdrawl symptoms | 13:59 |
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| Jawmare | Alcyius, for? | 14:03 |
| Alcyius | depression | 14:03 |
| Alcyius | SSRIs haven't worked, so I'm leaning towards Wellbutrin, especially with the withdrawl affects of Cymbalta | 14:03 |
| Alcyius | But Cymbalta might help with my pain at the same time, which would be nice | 14:04 |
| Quashie | I had a lot of nausea on cymbalta | 14:04 |
| Quashie | particularily while curling | 14:04 |
| Jawmare | try bot | 14:05 |
| Jawmare | both* | 14:05 |
| Jawmare | MAOI is another possibility | 14:05 |
| Quashie | (in particular, compared to Wellbutrin) | 14:05 |
| Quashie | however, and this might have been some side-effect mediated placebo, I felt Cymbalta had a larger effect on my mental state | 14:06 |
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| kanzure | health insurance companies should be buying brain uploading research-dividend-related bonds, because of the dramatically lower costs of maintenance for computational systems compared to biological systems. | 14:14 |
| kanzure | good way for them to reduce their expenses over time | 14:14 |
| Alcyius | Oh yeah so | 14:17 |
| Alcyius | Elio's probably going to go big soon | 14:17 |
| Alcyius | Big corporate deal coming up | 14:17 |
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| docl | Alcyius: for CO2->methanol to do any good, you need an energy source that isn't fossil fuel. | 15:19 |
| xentrac | You need an energy source that's not fossil fuel in order to do any kind of CO₂ extraction | 15:20 |
| docl | using solar or nuclear, then sure it is possible. | 15:20 |
| xentrac | Right, or geothermal | 15:20 |
| docl | yeah | 15:20 |
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| zeysmo | hello | 17:33 |
| psyreal | re | 17:35 |
| fenn | i find Diablo-D3's contributions to be better than random | 17:42 |
| erasmus | great game but you have to be online to play it | 17:43 |
| erasmus | I think they messed up by doing that | 17:44 |
| erasmus | hi fenn | 17:44 |
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| kanzure | fenn: i need a stronger defense than that :\ | 17:51 |
| kanzure | would pneumatic tubes work for mass transportation on the ocean? | 17:53 |
| kanzure | lack of mass transportation was one of eric hunting's primary complaints with submersible living | 17:54 |
| @fenn | well it seems a little unfair to single out Diablo-D3 given how bad atomical_ erasmus and Alcyius have been | 17:54 |
| kanzure | shouldn't your argument be "ban them all" then? | 17:54 |
| @fenn | i guess | 17:54 |
| kanzure | i'd be happy to kick 'em all. | 17:54 |
| Alcyius | Geez | 17:54 |
| erasmus | yeah really what did I say? | 17:54 |
| Alcyius | I'm here to listen and learn mostly | 17:54 |
| erasmus | yeah same here so I got his handle confused with a game | 17:55 |
| erasmus | my bad dogs | 17:55 |
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| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+qqqq erasmus!*@* atomical_!*@* atomical!*@* Diablo-D3!*@*] by kanzure | 17:55 | |
| @kanzure | curious how 4real you are about Alcyius? | 17:56 |
| Alcyius | I want to contribute but I have a lack of knowledge. I'm trying to learn. | 17:56 |
| @kanzure | http://gnusha.org/logs/erasmus.log | 17:57 |
| Alcyius | If I'm not wanted here though I can leave. | 17:57 |
| Alcyius | Or if I'm breaking rules/being annoying I can change what I bring into the channel | 17:57 |
| @fenn | i'm not really sure how to say it. it's not that there are rules to follow, and "try to be interesting" doesn't really work either. but neither does "be interesting" | 17:59 |
| Alcyius | More, if you want to kick or quiet, and/or dislike me, can I get an explanation why, and maybe I can correct that behavior | 18:00 |
| @fenn | Alcyius: i recognize that you're still young and undereducated and i don't want to hold that against you | 18:02 |
| @fenn | also i hate censorship and banning and all that stuff. it reminds me of yudkowsky | 18:02 |
| @kanzure | i think the non-rule is something like "demonstrate some attempt at an improving state of mental hygiene and trying to make (good) contributions to the group without excessive disruption". | 18:03 |
| Alcyius | That's the lesswrong guy right? He banned and censored any mention of Roko's Basilisk iirc | 18:03 |
| @kanzure | as far as i know you haven't actually done any trolling, although i may be forgetting something | 18:03 |
| Alcyius | kanzure, as far as I know, the closest I've gotten to "trolling" was probably being in a discussion about the ethics and/or politics of stuff, and I've avoided doing that after being told it wasn't really a big subject of discussion in the channel | 18:04 |
| @fenn | no, you haven't done any trolling | 18:05 |
| Alcyius | and I try to bring interesting tech developments as I find them | 18:05 |
| @kanzure | banned/kicked/muted people for less tho | 18:05 |
| @kanzure | Alcyius: that's actually not good either :) | 18:05 |
| @kanzure | reading the news is the number one way to rot your brain | 18:05 |
| Alcyius | How bout | 18:06 |
| @fenn | try reading some science papers or source code or build something | 18:06 |
| Alcyius | I leave for now, and come back when I have the knowledge/skill to contribute more | 18:06 |
| @kanzure | yea there's lots of interesting source code to read | 18:07 |
| @fenn | don't let school run your life | 18:07 |
| @kanzure | reading papers is probably not that great either, the value per paper is actually surprisingly low for the most part | 18:08 |
| @fenn | also SSRI's don't work 80% of the time | 18:08 |
| @kanzure | many large segments of science seem to be totally worthless in the presence of good speculation | 18:08 |
| Alcyius | fenn, that's why I stopped using SSRI's | 18:08 |
| Alcyius | They did nasty stuff to me | 18:08 |
| @kanzure | "good speculation" is a tricky thing though. most of its rules aren't written down anywhere. | 18:08 |
| Alcyius | Alright, I'm gonna head off, spend some more time at the local hackerspace and try to maybe build some more practical knowledge or do some work on some of the proposals, and maybe I'll be back at a later point in time. | 18:09 |
| @kanzure | we could also give you stuff to read and work on. there's lots of tasks out there. | 18:09 |
| Alcyius | I mean, I'm probably just going to do something like | 18:09 |
| -!- Alcyius is now known as Alcyius|Extended | 18:09 | |
| Alcyius|Extended | shit, character limit | 18:10 |
| -!- Alcyius|Extended is now known as Alcyius|Away | 18:10 | |
| Alcyius|Away | And yeah, suggestions would be nice | 18:10 |
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| Alcyius|Away | Just like, whisper it or something if you'd like, that way my bouncer will keep a record | 18:12 |
| Alcyius|Away | I'm gonna go for a while though, sorry for being a bother. | 18:12 |
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| @fenn | alcyius read "impro" by keith johnstone https://archive.org/details/pdfy-KIkLrSPi_3lzPl5v | 18:14 |
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| @kanzure | i wonder if projectile mass transport is a solution to his concerns | 18:17 |
| @fenn | kanzure did you read the evacuated tube transport patent? | 18:18 |
| @kanzure | i think his complaint was that air travel takes too long(?), like boarding a plane, although that sounds kind of stupid now that i think about it- airport transportation delays are entirely because of bad design not because of any particular bottleneck | 18:18 |
| @fenn | https://www.google.com/patents/US5950543 | 18:19 |
| @kanzure | i forget which design was proposed (in mass media?) recently that had people sitting down in their seats and then the entire compartment placed into the transportation device | 18:19 |
| @fenn | that was elon musk riffing on this patent | 18:19 |
| maaku | kanzure: hyperloop? | 18:19 |
| @kanzure | well fenn says yes | 18:19 |
| @kanzure | ya obv. replaceable compartments does not require a hyperloop | 18:19 |
| @kanzure | is there any good reason that air transport does not presently use that concept? | 18:20 |
| maaku | it's probably heavy | 18:20 |
| @fenn | fedex etc use pie wedge shaped shipping containers to pack into airplanes | 18:21 |
| @kanzure | i mean for people transport | 18:21 |
| @kanzure | "The rest--the big challenge--is dealing with very long lines of transportation/communication and technology that offers very limited solutions for that. For that it doesn't matter what you build or how. There are very few intermediate forms of intercontinental transportation with low minimum operational economies of scale. That's what limits living at sea to either fairly large planned communities, to people who can rough-it it like ... | 18:22 |
| @kanzure | ... 'working watermen' (people who own modest yachts and charter them for fishing, private cruises, and packet shipping), or to mostly the richest people in the world--people who can afford personal jets, helicopters, and large ocean-going yachts costing hundreds of millions of dollar. Any form of transportation an individual can't own outright has to be shared with a community, which presents the question of how many people it takes to ... | 18:22 |
| @kanzure | ... allow this to exist. This is why I got into things like airships." | 18:22 |
| @kanzure | " It's not that airships are 'greener' transportation. It's that they are the only potential form of intercontinental air transit with an operational economy of scale low enough that a community of hundreds of people can afford it, rather than the hundreds of thousands to millions of people it takes to justify the existence of conventional airliners and the infrastructures supporting them. Other than that, all current tech offers us is ... | 18:23 |
| @kanzure | ... crew boats and yachts--which aren't especially comfortable or speedy and are still beyond the reach of most middle-class individuals. Even being relatively near shore leaves you with pretty expensive transportation if it's 'open water'. Even something like this; ( http://barunaraya.com/Photo/item/27_1_3-Photo.jpg ) is a million dollar proposition. I used to tell Seasteaders; "why are you worrying about structures when what you need ... | 18:23 |
| @kanzure | ... is a Volantor with a thousand mile range?"" | 18:23 |
| @kanzure | hmm yeah i think he overlooked projectile launching of people in the air | 18:24 |
| @fenn | dead link? | 18:24 |
| @kanzure | email was from january 2015 | 18:25 |
| @fenn | some boat | 18:26 |
| @kanzure | certainly | 18:26 |
| @kanzure | "But can you match it with a convenient affordable means of transportation? Otherwise, it might as well cost as much as a luxury yacht because only people who can afford that will be able to conveniently live on it. The cost of transportation will determine the potential demographic of inhabitants, not the cost of the dwellings." | 18:26 |
| @kanzure | i am not convinced about the necessity of mass transportation like this though. where are you needing to be so quickly ? | 18:27 |
| @fenn | hospital | 18:27 |
| @kanzure | people in the middle of nowhere have long transportation times to hospitals, too | 18:27 |
| JayDugger | Don't neglect the historical development path in judging the "necessity of mass transportation". | 18:28 |
| JayDugger | Airplanes were invented before email. | 18:28 |
| JayDugger | "where are you needing to be so quickly ?" | 18:28 |
| @kanzure | perhaps if you needed mass transportation you wouldn't have picked "living in the middle of nowhere" ? | 18:29 |
| JayDugger | Military and high-priority high-value cargo. "hospital" is a subset of the latter. | 18:29 |
| JayDugger | No, every place used to be isolated. | 18:29 |
| @fenn | there is probably a case to be made for reusable gliders (aircraft) and ROV thingies that use the thermocline or wave power | 18:29 |
| JayDugger | Cities were isolated from one another, but not internally. | 18:30 |
| @kanzure | context is fenn's submersible living structures | 18:30 |
| JayDugger | Thank you. I'll shut up and think before typing. | 18:30 |
| @kanzure | and eric was pointing out that lack of mass transport overshadoows any utility of said structures | 18:30 |
| @kanzure | wasn't asking you to shut up, was just providing context | 18:30 |
| @fenn | eh? my "submersible living structure" was a vehicle | 18:30 |
| JayDugger | I didn't think you were asking, but it was nice of you to say so. | 18:31 |
| @kanzure | ya but eric would say "something something necessity of mass transport, economies of scale" | 18:31 |
| @kanzure | are cars considered mass transport ? | 18:31 |
| maaku | kanzure: a bus is | 18:31 |
| @kanzure | if you are a kilometer off the coast then it's going to take a while for your submersible bus to get to the coast :p | 18:32 |
| JayDugger | Intuitively, yes. Very few people afford a car and its associated infrastructure (roads, financing, insurance, auto repair) independently. | 18:32 |
| JayDugger | They began as toys for the rich, remember. | 18:32 |
| @fenn | it seems easier to say "hey boat, go to XYZ coordinates" than to dock your boat to some public transit system and navigate its own infurating alien system of logistics | 18:33 |
| @fenn | at least for "inter-city" transport distances | 18:33 |
| JayDugger | What do you mean by "dock your boat to some public transit system?" | 18:33 |
| @fenn | well if you live in a submersible structure it should be a boat in some minimal sense | 18:33 |
| JayDugger | Barges and tugboats going up and down rivers come to midn. | 18:34 |
| JayDugger | mind, rather. | 18:34 |
| @kanzure | i think the use case that eric had in mind was "living off the coast and working in the city" | 18:34 |
| @kanzure | (the land city) | 18:34 |
| @fenn | it would be easy enough to add a subway stop at treasure island for SF bay dwellers | 18:36 |
| @kanzure | i don't know what actual quality that "mass transport" is supposed to embody here-- if you had 200k structures off the coast and most were coming to shore in the morning/night for the daily commute, is that mass transport? | 18:36 |
| JayDugger | Why would you live off the coast and work in the city? | 18:37 |
| @kanzure | why would you live on land at all? | 18:37 |
| JayDugger | Regulatory arbitrage? | 18:37 |
| @fenn | because The Rent is Too Damn High (tm) | 18:37 |
| JayDugger | Um, have you ever lived at sea? | 18:37 |
| @fenn | no of course not | 18:37 |
| JayDugger | I have. Ex-Navy. | 18:37 |
| @kanzure | submarine living seems pretty different from ocean surface operations | 18:37 |
| JayDugger | Just a little, yes. | 18:38 |
| @kanzure | please continue | 18:38 |
| JayDugger | And military service differs from merchant marine service differs from passenger cruises. | 18:38 |
| maaku | fenn: /r/vandweller | 18:38 |
| maaku | it's easier, and cheaper | 18:38 |
| @fenn | it's also illegal | 18:39 |
| maaku | it's illegal to live in a van? | 18:39 |
| JayDugger | Very much so. If the van breaks you can stand up on the ground. | 18:39 |
| @fenn | in san francisco it is | 18:39 |
| JayDugger | In urban CA, probably. | 18:39 |
| @kanzure | and large communities are going to get harassed anyway | 18:39 |
| JayDugger | Van dwelling means a mechanical break down doesn't expose you to the risk of drowning. | 18:40 |
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| @fenn | seasteading is sure to get harrassed/bullied by vested interests, but there's no existing low-status associations like there is with van living | 18:40 |
| @fenn | so political stuff might be easier | 18:41 |
| JayDugger | Seasteading is a marvelous idea that completely ignores the military vulnerability of the communities. | 18:41 |
| maaku | interesting, didn't realize people actually got caught up in sleeping-in-the-car laws | 18:41 |
| maaku | you see so many van dwellers here in the south bay, no one really cares | 18:41 |
| @kanzure | your concern is military vulnerability, not how all of the seasteading habitats have been poorly designed? | 18:41 |
| JayDugger | Don't you have bored cops who'd rather bust homeless poor than worry about people who might shoot back where you lived, maaku? | 18:41 |
| JayDugger | Not quite, marine engineering can be solved by throwing money and expertise at it. | 18:42 |
| maaku | JayDugger: van dwellers around here aren't poor | 18:42 |
| @kanzure | what happened to "mechanical failures" a second ago | 18:42 |
| maaku | you see them parked outside of places like Cisco, Google, and even in high COL neighborhoods | 18:43 |
| JayDugger | You asked about what concerns me about seasteading, not the inherent (and solvable) dangers of life at sea. | 18:43 |
| @fenn | i don't understand how a mobile fleet of submarines is more vulnerable than a bunch of houses made out of styrofoam | 18:44 |
| JayDugger | Fair enough, maaku. I won't talk more about police other than to say my experience with them leads me to assume the worst of them. | 18:44 |
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| JayDugger | Militarily or in the sense of poor seaworthiness? | 18:44 |
| @fenn | militarily | 18:45 |
| maaku | JayDugger: it's regional. most places van dwellers are automatically suspect, probably even for good reason | 18:45 |
| @kanzure | "where's your mortgage, citizen?" | 18:45 |
| maaku | here in silicon valley there's a subculture of engineers that just don't see the value in throwing $35k a year at rent | 18:45 |
| @kanzure | oops i mean s/citizen/communist | 18:45 |
| JayDugger | Fenn, in general, or do you ask about my concerns with the idea? | 18:46 |
| JayDugger | I am having trouble tracking the conversation, sorry. | 18:46 |
| @kanzure | JayDugger: military vulnerability of submersible communities. | 18:46 |
| @fenn | JayDugger: i was more concerned about the opposite, that submarines would be banned for personal use because they are too hard to blow up if the government wants to | 18:46 |
| @fenn | JayDugger: so i'm finding it hard to wrap my mind around the idea of them being "too vulnerable" | 18:47 |
| @kanzure | i suspect that the government would stay away as long as you had lots of popularized youtube-friendly video content, and as long as you went out far enough | 18:47 |
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| @kanzure | and then you just have to contend with the regular kind of assholes | 18:47 |
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| JayDugger | Okay, let me state my concerns with seasteading. They have no way to defend against any modern Navy and so make their claims of sovereignty stick. | 18:47 |
| @fenn | micronations in general are vulnerable to large states | 18:47 |
| @kanzure | they don't reeaaallly need to defend as long as they can escape | 18:48 |
| @kanzure | and if they are being pursued they will get caught, yes... | 18:48 |
| JayDugger | Yes, and seasteading especially so since they depend on infrastructure more high-tech than dirt farming. | 18:48 |
| @fenn | there are a variety of motivations for seasteading, some of which involve sovereignty | 18:48 |
| JayDugger | Look up the range of a cruise missile, kanzure. Then bear in mind the fastest ships on the seas are atom-powered aircraft carriers (racing boats aside). | 18:49 |
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| JayDugger | Sovereignty will be very hard to make stick without a suicide nuke on a dead man switch below the waterline. | 18:50 |
| JayDugger | That's my concern about seasteading. | 18:50 |
| JayDugger | Regulatory or financial arbitrage doesn't convince me. | 18:50 |
| JayDugger | Also, I dislike living at sea. | 18:50 |
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| JayDugger | Moving for COL or better work, I've done. I can imagine that happening, but I don't expect to live to see it. | 18:51 |
| JayDugger | (Didn't expect to live to see smart contracts, either, for the record.) | 18:51 |
| @fenn | google already built a gigantic barge | 18:51 |
| @fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_barges | 18:52 |
| JayDugger | Yes. The marine engineering parts of seasteading are solved problems. I don't think those are deal-breakers. | 18:52 |
| JayDugger | Perhaps financially, but I don't know enough to say, even in a case-by-case basis. That could sure be made to work for resource extraction at times. | 18:54 |
| JayDugger | As for submarines, well...they have a long supply tail that leads back to land. A civilian boat probably won't have a militarily useful design. (Yes, I know about the coke boats. Those are explicitly criminal and borderline military-grade.) | 18:56 |
| @fenn | they're not really "military grade" aside from being submarines at all | 18:57 |
| JayDugger | A government with any sense, even intermittently, will shut down the sale of fuel and parts to a boat owner and wait for the sub to fail. | 18:57 |
| @kanzure | submarine failure seems like a design problem. everything should be trivially serviceable. | 18:57 |
| JayDugger | Military grade in the sense of designed to avoid detection by militaries. Poor word choice on my part. | 18:57 |
| @kanzure | *should be made to be | 18:57 |
| JayDugger | Operating costs for subs can probably be found in the DoD budget, if you care to look. Easy to fix doesn't mean long MTBF. | 18:58 |
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| @kanzure | i think research vessels are probably closer approximations? | 18:59 |
| JayDugger | To the idea of living undersea? | 18:59 |
| @fenn | i think the main objection to submarine living is that it's cramped, expensive, and there's nowhere to go | 18:59 |
| @fenn | sorta like space travel without the glamor | 18:59 |
| JayDugger | Those are all certainly true. Port visits made the high point of time at sea. | 19:00 |
| @kanzure | how was the satellite uplink? | 19:00 |
| @fenn | military satellite isn't a good comparison | 19:01 |
| JayDugger | We didn't have that when I was in. | 19:01 |
| JayDugger | I hear it is much, much better now, even on ships as small as frigates, at least in USN. | 19:01 |
| @kanzure | but how did you watch kim jong un make threats over youtube if you didn't have satellite uplink.....? | 19:01 |
| @fenn | the GEO satellite coverage is relatively poor compared to land areas | 19:02 |
| JayDugger | By watching the missiles go over head. | 19:02 |
| JayDugger | When his Dad was in charge, but mostly we ignored him. | 19:02 |
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| JayDugger | And communications still sucks for the sub fleet. Wasn't on a sub, don't know any submariners. | 19:04 |
| JayDugger | Kind of a quiet, clannish, bunch. | 19:04 |
| @kanzure | okay well i have seen nothing that leads me to believe that large-scale mass transport is mandatory for any of that. | 19:06 |
| JayDugger | Yeah, that whole bit wandered pretty far off-topic, and so much for my "I'll shut up." | 19:08 |
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| * fenn sleeps | 19:10 | |
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| MacktheYounger | Anybody alive? | 19:22 |
| @kanzure | sup | 19:24 |
| MacktheYounger | Heya. Glad to find a biohacking channel. You hear about the stuff people are doing recently with transdermal implants? Finding out how to get the skin to bond to it using hydroxyapatite and such? | 19:26 |
| @kanzure | i think i have shooed out all the body modification people, they tend to hang out elsewhere. | 19:26 |
| @kanzure | but maybe there's a straggler or two | 19:27 |
| @kanzure | you might get lucky | 19:27 |
| MacktheYounger | Fingers crossed. What do you mostly focus on, then, if not body mods? More mental stuff? | 19:28 |
| streety | only attempt I've seen at summarizing the channel is at http://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap/ | 19:29 |
| MacktheYounger | Hey, thanks. Pretty cool list. I can always get behind space habitats and diybio | 19:31 |
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| JayDugger | Welcome, MacktheYounger. | 19:48 |
| JayDugger | Dallas Maker Space recently had a writeup on the subject. You can find them at #dallasmakerspace or https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/ | 19:50 |
| streety | there is also ##biohack | 19:50 |
| MacktheYounger | Thanks. I'll definitely look into that. | 19:51 |
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| JayDugger | You might find the logs useful. | 19:53 |
| MacktheYounger | I'll be sure to look through them, thanks for the headsup | 19:55 |
| JayDugger | You're welcome. | 19:55 |
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| @kanzure | fenn: so i was looking over that patent and a name caught my eye while i was scrolling through the page, then it vanished, and i thought the name was impossible to see there. nope, it's really there... "david dalrymple". | 22:47 |
| @kanzure | https://www.google.com/patents/US20130276665 | 22:48 |
| not_unoriginal | isn't vacuum transport like a 19th century concept | 22:50 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Jan 29 00:00:18 2016 | ||
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