| --- Log opened Tue Feb 02 00:00:21 2016 | ||
| gnusha_ | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/laser_etcher/commit/?id=e77d847e Nathan McCorkle: Added pinout image, added settings, added link to how to possibly use ISP for whole operation >> http://diyhpl.us/laser_etcher/NEJE_Laser_Etcher/atmega_pinout.png | 00:07 |
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| @kanzure | beep boop | 06:32 |
| @kanzure | nsh: in my sleep last night i was recruited into an organization called "the universal bottleneck reduction agency" but i don't know how to get in contact with them | 06:33 |
| @kanzure | would you happen to know how to get in touch? | 06:34 |
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| cpopell6 | Anyone have a word on Magic Leap? | 07:01 |
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| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure | 07:39 | |
| kanzure | helo CoolerVoid | 07:39 |
| CoolerVoid | Hello sir | 07:41 |
| kanzure | what brings you here | 07:42 |
| CoolerVoid | SOmeone like anti-aging recipes ? https://github.com/CoolerVoid/anti-aging_studies | 07:42 |
| kanzure | hmm i think you should spend more time reading http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ http://fightaging.org/ | 07:42 |
| kanzure | also, do you know about return-oriented gadget stuff? | 07:43 |
| CoolerVoid | kansure humn nice stuff | 07:44 |
| CoolerVoid | I don't know... but i guess this interesting, i write some codes to AVR and ARM... but i dont work with this... | 07:45 |
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| kanzure | http://www.iarpa.gov/index.php/working-with-iarpa/requests-for-information/data-ingress-and-egress-for-cryogenic-systems | 08:21 |
| kanzure | ArvinJA: welcome. | 08:31 |
| ArvinJA | kanzure: Thank you! :) | 08:32 |
| ArvinJA | So do you guys have a plan or are you also stuck at "Where do I start? I should be studying!" | 08:33 |
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| kanzure | ArvinJA: we have a lot of the pieces figured out | 08:35 |
| kanzure | ArvinJA: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/hplusroadmap | 08:35 |
| kanzure | we have some plans for cryonics/immortality/better-than-traditional nootropics, but lately i have been wondering whether to skip cryonics for brain scanning (except the scanning part isn't the difficulty.....) | 08:36 |
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| ArvinJA | kanzure: But you can already freeze people though, I'd want to be frozen so you could scan me later, if I were to get hit by a bus tomorrow | 08:37 |
| kanzure | we freeze people but we don't do it well; i'm talking about a process that has a confirmed thawing procedure that works. | 08:38 |
| kanzure | high-resolution brain scanning and plastination is going to be coming online soon | 08:41 |
| ArvinJA | Has anyone thought of automating brain surgery? | 08:41 |
| ArvinJA | You can do it remotely now right? | 08:41 |
| kanzure | this will be capable of getting far more detail than is preserved in current cryonics vitrification procedures | 08:41 |
| kanzure | most forms of surgery through a hole have been automated at this point | 08:42 |
| ArvinJA | The more advanced forms of BCI's rely on actually having surgically place things in the brain right? | 08:43 |
| ArvinJA | Rather than reading EEG | 08:44 |
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| kanzure | yes there are physical brain-computer interfaces | 08:45 |
| kanzure | ArvinJA: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Soft%20materials%20in%20neuroengineering%20for%20hard%20problems%20in%20neuroscience%20-%202015.pdf | 08:45 |
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| kanzure | ArvinJA: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Neural%20dust:%20an%20ultrasonic,%20low%20power%20solution%20for%20chronic%20brain-machine%20interfaces.pdf | 08:45 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Model%20validation%20of%20untethered,%20ultrasonic%20neural%20dust%20motes%20for%20cortical%20recording%20-%202015.pdf | 08:45 |
| ArvinJA | Cool, so DIY brain augmentation might not be so sci-fi | 08:46 |
| kanzure | trepanation has been performed for thousands of years | 08:46 |
| ArvinJA | kanzure: Yeah sure, but I mean, actually being able to control certain receptors and so on through electrical impulses | 08:47 |
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| kanzure | nah they use light for that not electricity | 08:47 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Millisecond-timescale,%20genetically%20targeted%20optical%20control%20of%20neural%20activity%20-%20Boyden.pdf | 08:48 |
| ArvinJA | Ah | 08:48 |
| kanzure | read this one, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Designing%20scalable%20biological%20interfaces%20-%20Marblestone.pdf | 08:48 |
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| nsh | the universal bottleneck reduction agency is ironically best contactable by creating a large bottleneck and being in a position to reduce it | 11:01 |
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| nsh | some speculate that the inherent tensegrity of this dialectic is the driving force behind the elaboration of all complexity within the great bottle | 11:02 |
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| kanzure | context: | 11:06 |
| kanzure | 08:14 <+ArvinJA> Uh, guys, I've been wanting to Immanentize the Eschaton for quite some time now, but I don't know where to start. Help? | 11:06 |
| kanzure | 08:14 <+xentrac_> heh | 11:06 |
| kanzure | 08:14 <+xentrac_> in ##hplusroadmap, ArvinJA | 11:06 |
| kanzure | 08:15 <+dpk> immanentizing in Swhack of eschatons is forbidden by long-standing order | 11:06 |
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| FourFire | cpopell6, ArvinJA have you tried > Gettingoutofthecar! | 11:20 |
| superkuh | I get that reference. | 11:21 |
| FourFire | No response from Bioviva, I presume they just ignore randoms who email them. | 11:22 |
| ArvinJA | FourFire: I still don't know how to get out of the car, sadly :( | 11:23 |
| FourFire | Now to email SENS, and ask what systems they make use of to design novel biological mechanisms... | 11:23 |
| ArvinJA | Did you guys see Aubrey's comments? | 11:24 |
| ArvinJA | he made a video response | 11:24 |
| ArvinJA | since he's cited as an advisor to BioViva | 11:24 |
| ArvinJA | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1zr6JsS5t8 | 11:25 |
| FourFire | ArvinJA, no I've been a fan of Aubrey since before I knew Bioviva existed | 11:26 |
| ArvinJA | yeah foc | 11:26 |
| ArvinJA | just interesting to see his assessments on current attempts at life extension, as they pop up | 11:27 |
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| cpopell6 | >reading E_D | 11:58 |
| cpopell6 | >end up on discussion of Wiki folks | 11:58 |
| cpopell6 | >mindspillage 'I recognize that name!' -- Married to gmaxwell 'I also recognize that name!' | 11:59 |
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| FourFire | sent SENS an email | 12:58 |
| FourFire | rooted my new smartphone | 12:58 |
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| kanzure | "reaction mechanism generator" http://rmg.mit.edu/ | 13:04 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/ReactionMechanismGenerator/RMG-Py | 13:04 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/ReactionMechanismGenerator/RMG-Py/blob/master/examples/generateReactions/input.py | 13:05 |
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| kanzure | http://rmg.mit.edu/database/export_tar.gz | 13:06 |
| delinquentme | OK so the chat on the mechanoligation pointed out something significant | 13:07 |
| delinquentme | it IS plausible | 13:07 |
| delinquentme | but the complexity of the structures are *quite* different | 13:07 |
| delinquentme | all of the mechanical bond forming has been done on planar surfaces | 13:07 |
| kanzure | hmm i think they don't have many reaction mechanisms http://rmg.mit.edu/database/kinetics/libraries/combustion_core/version5/ | 13:07 |
| delinquentme | so one of my questions is: Are there ways of simplifying the constraining of the DNA | 13:08 |
| delinquentme | is there some fixture which can be applied to the DNA facilitating this | 13:08 |
| kanzure | nanopores can constrain dna | 13:12 |
| kanzure | halcyon molecular developed a water miniscuses method of isolating and stretching dna | 13:12 |
| kanzure | https://groups.google.com/group/enzymaticsynthesis | 13:12 |
| delinquentme | yeap nanopores was one of the thoughts | 13:15 |
| chris_99 | delinquentme, you mentioned you had STMs the other day, did you build them out of interest? | 13:37 |
| delinquentme | chris_99: partially | 13:39 |
| delinquentme | and partially for mechanoligation | 13:39 |
| chris_99 | cool, is there any particular 'guide' you followed out of curiosity - i'm really impressed by the images on this guys site http://dberard.com/home-built-stm/ | 13:41 |
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| delinquentme | chris_99: thats basically our STM | 13:44 |
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| delinquentme | we had a few small modifications to it but were using all of his electronics | 13:44 |
| chris_99 | aha cool :) | 13:44 |
| delinquentme | yeah its a solid instrument | 13:45 |
| delinquentme | im waiting on a few pieces to be finished maching so I can scan HOPG | 13:45 |
| delinquentme | but we've got beautiful scans of 1um 400nm and 100nm gold surfaces | 13:45 |
| chris_99 | cool :) did you acid etch the tips? | 13:46 |
| delinquentme | nope! | 13:46 |
| delinquentme | Purely mechanical shear forces | 13:46 |
| delinquentme | 80/20 Platinum/iridium | 13:46 |
| delinquentme | beauitful material to work with | 13:46 |
| delinquentme | takes incredibly well to really fine manipulation and is SUPER ductile | 13:46 |
| chris_99 | interesting, but how do you create the point on it? | 13:47 |
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| delinquentme | http://www.nanophys.kth.se/nanophys/facilities/nfl/afm/icon/bruker-help/Content/Resources/Graphics/Probe%20and%20Sample%20Guide/Making_wire_STMprobes.jpg | 13:48 |
| delinquentme | its literally that easy | 13:48 |
| delinquentme | no etching | 13:49 |
| chris_99 | haha, crazy | 13:49 |
| delinquentme | simply positioning the cutting instrument at a sufficient angle and exploiting the ductility of the material | 13:49 |
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| delinquentme | sometimes nature gives us really elegant hacks :P | 13:50 |
| chris_99 | that's very cool | 13:50 |
| chris_99 | how much did all the electronics / hardware cost out of interest, if you don't mind me asking | 13:51 |
| delinquentme | ummm | 13:52 |
| delinquentme | it was really fucking cheap im wanting to say we make the first for under $1k | 13:52 |
| chris_99 | wow! | 13:52 |
| chris_99 | that's impressive | 13:52 |
| delinquentme | and thats buying tools , multimeteres .. essentially all the equipment that we didnt have | 13:52 |
| delinquentme | i'd say iterations would be about $350 ? | 13:52 |
| delinquentme | ehh no maybe 500 | 13:53 |
| chris_99 | that's amazing | 13:53 |
| delinquentme | but yeah | 13:53 |
| chris_99 | ah, are you using a nano-ammeter or something fancy? | 13:54 |
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| delinquentme | current is heald constant by a few cheap opamps | 14:19 |
| chris_99 | sorry, i meant to measure the current from the tip for imaging | 14:21 |
| kanzure | original tor paper cites wei dai's earlier pipenet stuff. he sure does get around. (although this is not particularly surprising considering his early involvement in tor....) | 14:23 |
| delinquentme | so the tunneling current is maintained and as the tip rasterizes across the surface we're measuring the voltages input into the piezo as the imaging source | 14:24 |
| delinquentme | voltages are set to maintain specfic tunneling current | 14:24 |
| chris_99 | oh i assumed the current changed | 14:24 |
| delinquentme | then recorded in a ADC and thats where we get our z-values from :D | 14:25 |
| delinquentme | brb stuffing greasy fodd into face | 14:25 |
| chris_99 | heh, bon appetit | 14:25 |
| nmz787_i | huh, well that's an interesting way to control and image... as well as ensure the tip doesn't crash | 14:28 |
| nmz787_i | and you keep all the feedback pretty close in the opamp package | 14:28 |
| chris_99 | am i reading wiki wrongly "If the tip is moved across the sample in the x-y plane, the changes in surface height and density of states cause changes in current. These changes are mapped in images" isn't that saying the current flucuates which is what you measure | 14:29 |
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| nmz787_i | chris_99: if you keep Z constant | 14:35 |
| nmz787_i | chris_99: what happens if your tip hits a mountain though, at constant tip-Z | 14:35 |
| nmz787_i | CRASH | 14:35 |
| chris_99 | heh good point | 14:35 |
| nmz787_i | alternatively, let the opamp keep constant distance, and measure the (relatively larger) voltage on the piezo | 14:35 |
| nmz787_i | (i'm guessing it is relatively larger) | 14:36 |
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| nmz787_i | (and the opamp will be doing the feedback on the piezos, so you can sit back and control the XY withouth thinking more about the tip itself) | 14:37 |
| nmz787_i | (i'm guessing) | 14:37 |
| chris_99 | would i be right in thinking you could use the same x,y system as used by STM for AFM, and just use a cantilever + laser instead of the STM tip | 14:38 |
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| delinquentme | chris_99: nmz787 this is an interesting bit though. The whole control system for the movement isn't analog | 15:03 |
| delinquentme | theres a digital portion where the height is determined based off the + / - of the current feeback loop | 15:04 |
| delinquentme | one of the questions we were asking is if its run as constant current and all of the positioning circuitry is analog | 15:04 |
| delinquentme | could one do away with the large mechanical portions of the dampening system ? | 15:05 |
| delinquentme | the mechanical dampening is like 60% of the instruments envelope | 15:05 |
| chris_99 | interesting, i didn't look too much how the Z axis worked actually, i noticed there seems to be a piezo cut into quadrants for the x,y iirc | 15:07 |
| chris_99 | wait does the piezo also control the Z? | 15:08 |
| delinquentme | yeap | 15:09 |
| delinquentme | by simply applying a voltage to all quadrants | 15:10 |
| chris_99 | ahh | 15:10 |
| chris_99 | would i be right in thinking that the higher the voltage you apply, the closer the head moves to the sample | 15:11 |
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| delinquentme | chris_99: depends on how the piezo is mounted but in the standard arrangement higher voltage causes the piezo to "swell" and push the needle towards teh sample | 15:16 |
| delinquentme | TOWARDS TEH SAMPLE!!!!!!!!!!!! | 15:16 |
| delinquentme | CHARGE | 15:16 |
| chris_99 | heh | 15:16 |
| delinquentme | ^ the electrons | 15:16 |
| chris_99 | that makes sense, but how does the X,Y work, how does the metal platform actually move due to the piezos | 15:17 |
| delinquentme | nope the metal is strictly for macro approach | 15:17 |
| delinquentme | ideally you get a light source positioned perfectly on the surface of the sample, so that you can see the reflection of the tip | 15:18 |
| delinquentme | and use that to get it into close-ish proximity | 15:18 |
| delinquentme | then we've got a lil shit-cheap stepper which increments the rear screw bit by bit until tunneling happens | 15:18 |
| delinquentme | then anything related to surface scanning is handled at the piezo | 15:19 |
| delinquentme | and the ADC / DAC feedback loop | 15:19 |
| chris_99 | yeah i'm confused how the piezo actually performs x,y motion, is it just 'tilting' the tip, by differing ammounts | 15:20 |
| chris_99 | because you have quadrants | 15:20 |
| delinquentme | but like nmz787 sed ... theres still possibility to slam into high peaks | 15:21 |
| delinquentme | yeah the total tip movement envelope is definitely spherical / ellipsoidal | 15:21 |
| delinquentme | as it its most certainly pivoting around a central axis | 15:22 |
| chris_99 | ahh | 15:22 |
| delinquentme | but that central axis has some linear thrust-type actuation per the piezo expansion | 15:22 |
| chris_99 | do you know how much travel you get in each axis? | 15:22 |
| delinquentme | depends on the piezo size | 15:23 |
| delinquentme | current working proto have a 12mm diameter piezo | 15:23 |
| delinquentme | and we've got 20mm | 15:23 |
| delinquentme | and since we're working with materials here the resolution of that is really only limited by the DAC / ADCs | 15:23 |
| chris_99 | you mean the tip can move 20mm in x,y,z? | 15:24 |
| delinquentme | nah the diameter of the piezo | 15:24 |
| chris_99 | oh i thought it was high heh | 15:24 |
| chris_99 | could it be <1mm movement in each axis | 15:24 |
| delinquentme | the travel is ~1um cubed | 15:24 |
| chris_99 | aha | 15:25 |
| delinquentme | the z-axis has the most travel for obvious reasons of the X/Y movements are distorting antagonistically | 15:25 |
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| chris_99 | gotcha | 15:26 |
| chris_99 | after you've explained it, the actual principle of the movement seems fairly simple, it's amazing the piezo gives such high resolution | 15:27 |
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| delinquentme | chris_99: just like I said w the platinum iridium | 15:42 |
| delinquentme | its the properties of the material which allow this :D | 15:42 |
| chris_99 | mmm :) | 15:42 |
| chris_99 | have you looked into AFM at all? i'm assuming you can't easily DIY a probe for that | 15:45 |
| delinquentme | nope ... i mean i understand the operating principle | 15:48 |
| delinquentme | but thats also not running atmospheric temp / pressure | 15:48 |
| delinquentme | the STM is like ... sitting on my desk surrounded by a coffee can lol | 15:48 |
| chris_99 | oh, i thought you could run an AFM under normal pressure, is that not the case | 15:49 |
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| chris_99 | http://www.budgetsensors.com/index.html seem like they're reasonably cheap, assuming they're ok | 16:08 |
| fenn | .wik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Ara | 16:14 |
| yoleaux | "Project Ara is the codename for an initiative that aims to develop an open hardware platform for creating highly modular smartphones. The platform will include a structural frame or endoskeleton that holds smartphone modules of the owner's choice, such as a display, camera or an extra battery." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Ara | 16:14 |
| fenn | some familiar names here, paul eremenko, ara knaian | 16:14 |
| fenn | electropermanent magnets are such an amazingly simple idea that one wonders why it's "new" | 16:14 |
| fenn | .wik electropermanent magnet | 16:15 |
| yoleaux | "An electropermanent magnet is a type of magnet which consists of both an electromagnet and a dual material permanent magnet, in which the magnetic field produced by the electromagnet is used to change the magnetization of the permanent magnet." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electropermanent_magnet | 16:15 |
| fenn | "The permanent magnet consists of magnetically hard and soft materials, of which only the soft material (low coercivity) can have its magnetization changed. When the magnetically soft and hard materials have opposite magnetizations the magnet has no net field, and when they are aligned the magnet displays magnetic behavior." | 16:15 |
| fenn | they used this concept to make a small and simple gearless high-torque low-power electric motor, for making reconfigurable modular robots | 16:17 |
| delinquentme | chris_99: i would expect that molecules of air which are flying around would be pretty interacting with the probe tip | 16:17 |
| fenn | .title youtu.be/EN_KkGdxqog | 16:17 |
| yoleaux | MIT News at Noon with Neil Gershenfeld and Ara Knaian - YouTube | 16:17 |
| kanzure | how high is high torque? | 16:17 |
| fenn | enough to lift another motor of the same type | 16:17 |
| fenn | with a lever arm of about 2x the diameter of the motor | 16:17 |
| chris_99 | delinquentme, the principle is similar to an STM though isn't it, are you saying your STM is in a vacuum? | 16:18 |
| delinquentme | chris_99: nope | 16:18 |
| delinquentme | they're 2 different operating principles ... though both fall within " probe microscopy " | 16:19 |
| delinquentme | STMs can be in vacuum ... but not required... where im pretty sure AFM is strictly in vacuos | 16:19 |
| chris_99 | yeah, but the main difference is it uses a laser to 'read' the probe 'height', why should it need to be in a vacuum | 16:19 |
| delinquentme | because the probe height is determined by the particle interactions | 16:20 |
| delinquentme | if you're running it through air , air has lots of moving particles | 16:20 |
| delinquentme | the "signal" ie the surface | 16:20 |
| chris_99 | "most AFM modes can work perfectly well in ambient air or even a liquid environment. This makes it possible to study biological macromolecules and even living organisms" | 16:21 |
| delinquentme | Whaaaaaaa? | 16:21 |
| delinquentme | HMMM | 16:21 |
| chris_99 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic-force_microscopy assuming that's to believed ;) | 16:21 |
| delinquentme | i wonder if the deflection / force applied is tuned to match the van der waals | 16:21 |
| delinquentme | its possible | 16:21 |
| delinquentme | i mean ... id trust that t | 16:21 |
| delinquentme | hmmm | 16:21 |
| kanzure | don't need a vacuum | 16:26 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/AFM/ | 16:26 |
| fenn | http://www.modularphonesforum.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/project_ara_phone_medium.jpg image of actual hardware "spiral 1 prototype" | 16:28 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure: I suppose the latent air molecules arent viscious enough to interact substantially w the tip ? | 16:39 |
| delinquentme | so then ywah its purely vanderwaals off of the solid being scanned | 16:40 |
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