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| kanzure | hmm. | 06:10 |
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| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7HmltUWXgs | 07:55 |
| yoleaux | Rick and Morty - You pass Butter - YouTube | 07:55 |
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| kanzure | "luxembourg sets aside €200 million for asteroid mining" well ok. | 08:29 |
| Urchin | smart | 08:30 |
| JayDugger | Sure they do…just PG&E promised to buy electricity from powersats. | 08:31 |
| JayDugger | Hope I'm wrong. | 08:31 |
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| maaku | stack machine compiler https://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/chrisb/main-pages/publicatio... | 09:18 |
| maaku | https://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/chrisb/main-pages/publications/ShannonThesis2006.pdf.1 | 09:18 |
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| kanzure | "A C compiler for stack machines" | 09:22 |
| maaku | Appendix E is ineresting "Proposed Instruction Set for High Performance Stack Machine" | 09:27 |
| maaku | (Stack machines are IMHO the future of intermediate languages, especially in AGI) | 09:28 |
| maaku | kanzure: reading the antikernel paper now. The conventional approach would have been secL4 on top of generic hardware, and verified servers | 09:29 |
| maaku | *verified user-level servers providing OS services | 09:29 |
| maaku | That's more or less what the RISC-V foundation is working towards with their secure platform project | 09:30 |
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| maaku | The antikernel approach is better though. But it's a break from von neuman machines | 09:32 |
| kanzure | antikernel is from azonenberg, who is known around these parts for his work on homecmos transistor etching stuff | 09:33 |
| maaku | kanzure: you ask "would that be something materially helpful to things you are doing" -- yes, although more for The Bitcoin Distraction than The Problem at the moment. | 09:35 |
| maaku | I think as soon as we have little namomachines or MEMS devices swimming around our capillaries, this kind of tech to minimize attack surfaces is extremely important. | 09:36 |
| maaku | Between now and then the more useful application is things like bitcoin hardware wallets, functionaries, oracles, and other secure devices that handle money. | 09:37 |
| kanzure | jblake offered to write some non-obvious things down with some free time he might have soon. if there's other stuff about formal verification and cpu architecture that you could think of, then i can pass some suggestions and requests along to him. (he offered to write about speculative execution and caching re: antikernel) | 09:37 |
| maaku | Also if you have FAI tendencies "decentralized secure platform" is exactly what you'd want to build an AI box. If you bother with boxes at least (I don't) | 09:38 |
| maaku | We should probably put him in contact with roconnor who is working on formal verification at Blockstream | 09:39 |
| maaku | Just grepping the PDF I don't see much mention of capabilities. I presume that cryptographically enforced capability tokens would be important in the antikernel approach | 09:42 |
| kanzure | "does not provide enough interesting security constraints" was his analysis after looking for like 8 seconds | 09:43 |
| maaku | Yeah well I'll try not to fault Zonenberg for that. It's a large enough undertaking as is. | 09:45 |
| maaku | Is he looking for work? | 09:45 |
| kanzure | dunno. he seems to be at ioactive for now. | 09:46 |
| kanzure | hrm actually, i was unaware that ioactive does low-level things. why do they have him on their staff.. | 09:46 |
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| kanzure | .tw https://twitter.com/lsparrish/status/739203315985055744 | 10:59 |
| yoleaux | @azizonomics @kanzure @DrPhiltill Who would be most likely to pay for the development and deployment of space based self replicators? (@lsparrish) | 10:59 |
| kanzure | .tw https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/739516748194418688 | 10:59 |
| yoleaux | @lsparrish @azizonomics @DrPhiltill Space development will need "new" financial instruments. Replication has its own weird economics. (@kanzure, in reply to tw:739203315985055744) | 10:59 |
| kanzure | probably something about zero-coupon bonds, securitization, royalty-backed obligations and something that might look like venture capital but isn't. | 11:09 |
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| kanzure | like https://www.pwc.co.uk/assets/pdf/alternative-financing-in-the-mining-industry.pdf | 11:34 |
| kanzure | except worse | 11:34 |
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| maaku | kanzure: commodity markets | 11:40 |
| maaku | *futures markets | 11:40 |
| maaku | space based self replicators is just efficient use of limited mass budgets | 11:41 |
| maaku | The indirect answer therefore is Richard Garriott | 11:42 |
| maaku | (Whose ownership of Lunakhod 2 is established by international convention. Get him to sell it for scrap on your commodity futures market and you'll have legitimized the market.) | 11:43 |
| maaku | Then anyone who extracts resources from the moon can sell it in place to your market. | 11:44 |
| maaku | Someone who sends a self-replicating factory gets to sit back and slowly claim the entire moon. | 11:44 |
| kanzure | you are proposing futures markets as a source of revenue, not funding, right? | 11:47 |
| kanzure | or do you mean the futures contracts are purchased prior to a mining company achieving operational capability? if so, why would you buy those contracts? | 11:48 |
| kanzure | also: if futures were an appropriate financial vehicle for this, then i would expect to see futures used to fund exploratory mining things and such. but instead i am seeing a bunch of pwc documents about "earn-in agreements" and equity/royalty. | 11:49 |
| kanzure | *for earth-bound mining things | 11:50 |
| maaku | kanzure: revenue on the timescale of 4-5 year intervals, which makes normal short-term venture funding a realistic option | 11:51 |
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| kanzure | i think the difficult question has been initial financing/funding for those ventures, and less a question of "what happens once everything is verified to be working and we are successful" | 11:53 |
| maaku | kanzure: it would be a combination of commodity futures markets and land claims registry | 11:53 |
| kanzure | "risk guarantee instruments" hrm | 11:53 |
| maaku | and this is how a good deal of mining is funded in the canadian north, for example | 11:53 |
| kanzure | land claims registry might be one way to do it... then at least you can have people with credibility endorsing some "pie in the sky" pie to go after. | 11:54 |
| maaku | you see risky prospecting being funded on the hope that it turns into a verified claim, which is sold through a variety of brokers until a mining company decides to develop it | 11:54 |
| maaku | and they (I believe) take out some futures contracts as a hedge on price volatility | 11:54 |
| kanzure | for space things, i think the timelines are going to be a bit longer, which makes venture capital less accessible since for some reason they have <10 year horizons | 11:55 |
| kanzure | but collaborative highly-credible land registries and ratings will probably fix that, and at least make debt financing available. | 11:55 |
| kanzure | most of my time today has been spent wondering about financial instruments for speculative brain uploading and cryonics -- which is slightly more difficult than space mining/infrastructure funding. | 11:56 |
| kanzure | essentially you end up with weird results like "okay well you have to essentially convince finance folks that the risk is high but the total value is many multiples of current world wealth" which is weird. but to be fair space mining has the same issue in a few places, like "more gold than the mass of the earth" and such :-). | 11:57 |
| maaku | the space mining is shorter term, strangly enough, and more profitable | 11:57 |
| kanzure | shorter term than what | 11:57 |
| maaku | as i believe I told you this is how I got into bitcoin-like things | 11:57 |
| Orpheon | not sure that brain uploading would be a profitable thing even after the fact | 11:57 |
| maaku | stuff like cryonics | 11:57 |
| kanzure | oh sure. yes it's shorter term than cryonics. | 11:57 |
| Orpheon | nor cryonics | 11:58 |
| Orpheon | I'd be surprised if you got better than gov funding for either | 11:58 |
| kanzure | Orpheon: it's profitable because you can just take the uploader's entire wealth. problem solved. | 11:58 |
| Orpheon | (or massive-company-with-ideals funding) | 11:58 |
| Orpheon | what? And pledge yourself to pay for the uploader's costs for the rest of your existence? | 11:58 |
| Orpheon | that looks vaguely ponzi-esque | 11:59 |
| maaku | Orpheon: shut down the upload ;) | 11:59 |
| kanzure | maaku: for cryonics i was thinking today that everyone should sign up for cryonics, and if they don't want to be preserved then there's probably a strong moral argument that they should pick someone else to vitrify in their place :-) (or the money should go to resuscitation research for someone else). | 11:59 |
| Orpheon | what if they don't want to spend that money? | 11:59 |
| kanzure | for upload financing, if the uploader doesn't want to spend that money then they wouldn't have signed the contract presumably. what is your question? | 12:00 |
| Orpheon | oh, you're talking about those that signed contracts | 12:00 |
| Orpheon | ok | 12:00 |
| Orpheon | the "everyone" threw me off | 12:00 |
| kanzure | oh, for cryonics? | 12:00 |
| Orpheon | for both | 12:00 |
| Orpheon | they're similar in some ways | 12:01 |
| kanzure | lots of people have life insurance policies already, far more than have signed up for cryotesticle preservation | 12:01 |
| kanzure | Orpheon: yes if you took 10% to 100% of the uploader's wealth, you would use some of that to fund the cpu cycles and resource requirements of running an emulation | 12:02 |
| Orpheon | life insurance is a way to guarantee that your family still earns a bit if you are suddenly without a job and your partner doesn't have a job/not a good enough job | 12:02 |
| kanzure | Orpheon: however, you can also have them (before they die/get uploaded) paying off a loan to fund those technical developments. there's lots of ways to get this done. | 12:02 |
| kanzure | no, you don't need a family to have life insurance | 12:03 |
| Orpheon | well, then someone else you care about, no? | 12:03 |
| kanzure | do you have life insurance? | 12:03 |
| Orpheon | what is the point of life insurance if you care only about yourself? | 12:03 |
| Orpheon | no, since I do not earn money yet | 12:03 |
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| maaku | kanzure: I can provide contacts to start with the space automation via markets idea, but not intros. | 12:04 |
| kanzure | usually people get life insurance because their earning potential is reduced after medical death, so they use life insurance to payout afterwards to make up for their reduced earning potential | 12:04 |
| kanzure | which is regardless of family | 12:04 |
| maaku | kanzure: I'm pretty sure most people don't give two shits what happens to them after they die, unless they have family / heirs | 12:05 |
| kanzure | maaku: i think the futures contracts will work if you already have space mining equipment ready to go. i don't see how it would work to finance a totally new venture that needs to do a bunch of satellite/equipment/mining/rocket development and launch costs etc... | 12:05 |
| kanzure | the timeline alone is probably longer than the 4-5 years on those futures contracts | 12:05 |
| kanzure | (i'm clearly assuming a lot of up-front work) | 12:06 |
| maaku | kanzure: one twist I've been assuming is that the contract is for "units" of material where the mass equivalent of 1 unit changes as product is brought to market | 12:07 |
| Orpheon | >payout after medical death | 12:07 |
| Orpheon | for people that have neither a family nor believe in cryonics, what's the point? | 12:07 |
| maaku | and with that twist, I'm not sure how much would be via actual futures contracts vs actual commodities markets where you own "units" of material | 12:08 |
| maaku | the initial units being sold from the "scrap" of Lunakhod 2 | 12:08 |
| maaku | (or a ballast payload on one of the new Google Lunar X Prize landers) | 12:08 |
| kanzure | maaku: again my only concern with your plan is all the initial upfront work on getting launched and designing/building the equipment, mission launch costs, etc. so where does the money come from? i guess you could have a zero-coupon bond with a maturity date far in the future, you could have a futures contract that is far into the future as well.... | 12:10 |
| kanzure | it doesn't seem entirely reasonable to expect the futures market to somehow have enough liquidity to fund entire space programs... | 12:11 |
| kanzure | maybe i'm over-estimating the amount of development costs to begin (space) mining, and under-estimating the frothyness of commodity futures markets. | 12:13 |
| kanzure | we are still spending a few hundred million per nasa satellite, right? | 12:17 |
| maaku | kanzure: government numbers are distorted | 12:24 |
| maaku | kanzure: I think I have an answer to that, but i'll have to write it up later (about to leave) | 12:24 |
| maaku | there are people funding this space -- see masten, lunar express, astrobiotic | 12:25 |
| maaku | the problem is when they try to raise larger rounds, because they already sucked up the speculative money | 12:26 |
| maaku | but i think there's financial engineering we can do to de-risk such efforts | 12:26 |
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| maaku | On the timeframe that such investors care about at any rate | 12:27 |
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| kanzure | "journal of risk finance" http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journal/jrf | 12:30 |
| kanzure | http://framtidensgruvochmineral.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/global_mining_finance_guide_jan14.PDF | 12:31 |
| kanzure | python wrapper for xvfb https://github.com/ponty/pyvirtualdisplay | 12:38 |
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| maaku | kanzure do you have a non work email for azonenberg? | 14:14 |
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| kanzure | strangely, no | 14:19 |
| kanzure | maaku: ah actually i do, it's zonena@rpi.edu | 14:20 |
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| nmz787_i | maaku just go over to #fpga | 14:36 |
| nmz787_i | or ##openfpga or ##openfpgas or something like that | 14:37 |
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| nmz787_i | maaku: anyway it is azonenberg@drawersteak.com | 14:38 |
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| xentrac_ | it's pretty sad that the FPGA vendors are getting eaten just as things like Project IceStorm are becoming a reality | 14:49 |
| xentrac_ | but in November when I saw that IceStorm had succeeded in getting a free toolchain working for a Lattice FPGA, Digi-Key's most-stocked FPGA was already a Lattice part | 14:50 |
| xentrac_ | no, #2 most-stocked | 14:50 |
| kanzure | evidence of eating happening? | 14:50 |
| xentrac_ | and Lattice is the vendor that didn't get eaten | 14:51 |
| xentrac_ | https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/ICE40LP1K-QN84/220-1561-ND/3083571 is supported by IceStorm I think, and it runs US$4.29 | 14:51 |
| Elohim | sheeet fpga is everywhere | 14:52 |
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| kanzure | iirc the fpga that clifford was working with was low powered and lattice didn't have anything else on the market | 15:11 |
| kanzure | s/low powered/low-end | 15:12 |
| kanzure | maaku: also he's on irc same nick.. | 15:14 |
| kanzure | http://www.clifford.at/yosys/ | 15:14 |
| kanzure | verilog RTL synthesis stuff https://github.com/cliffordwolf/yosys | 15:14 |
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| kanzure | pig-human chimera stuff http://www.bbc.com/news/health-36437428 | 16:21 |
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| maaku | kanzure: ##antikernel is now a thing | 17:36 |
| maaku | er, #antikernel | 17:36 |
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| maaku | kanzure: these guys http://www.marketwatch.com/story/first-commercial-mission-to-the-moon-nears-approval-2016-06-05 | 19:07 |
| maaku | just need some precisely measured micrograms of material as ballast | 19:08 |
| xentrac_ | ballast? | 19:14 |
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| kanzure | xentrac_: probably moon regolith stuff | 19:24 |
| kanzure | "Topological analysis of the connectome of digital reconstructions of neural microcircuits" http://arxiv.org/pdf/1601.01580v1 | 19:50 |
| kanzure | "A recent publication provides the network graph for a neocortical microcircuit comprising 8 million connections between 31,000 neurons (H. Markram, et al., Reconstruction and simulation of neocortical microcircuitry, Cell, 163 (2015) no. 2, 456-492). Since traditional graph-theoretical methods may not be sufficient to understand the immense complexity of such a biological network, we explored whether methods from algebraic topology ... | 19:51 |
| kanzure | ... could provide a new perspective on its structural and functional organization. Structural topological analysis revealed that directed graphs representing connectivity among neurons in the microcircuit deviated significantly from different varieties of randomized graph. In particular, the directed graphs contained in the order of 10^7 simplices {\DH} groups of neurons with all-to-all directed connectivity. Some of these simplices ... | 19:51 |
| kanzure | ... contained up to 8 neurons, making them the most extreme neuronal clustering motif ever reported. Functional topological analysis of simulated neuronal activity in the microcircuit revealed novel spatio-temporal metrics that provide an effective classification of functional responses to qualitatively different stimuli. This study represents the first algebraic topological analysis of structural connectomics and connectomics-based ... | 19:51 |
| kanzure | ... spatio-temporal activity in a biologically realistic neural microcircuit. The methods used in the study show promise for more general applications in network science." | 19:51 |
| kanzure | "Comparative connectomics" http://people.psych.cornell.edu/~jec7/pcd%202015-16%20pubs/compconnectomics.pdf | 19:54 |
| kanzure | "Combined in vivo recording of neural signals and iontophoretic injection of pathway tracers using a hollow silicon microelectrode" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925400515308236 | 20:00 |
| kanzure | "This paper presents the results of in vivo local release of a neuronal tracer, biotinylated dextran amine (BDA) in the rat somatosensory cortex using monolithically integrated microfluidic channel of a silicon neural microelectrode. The tracer injection is controlled by iontophoresis using Pt electrodes in the vicinity of the outlet of the microfluidic channel. Using 3–5 μA, 5–7 s on/off cycle and 15–20 min total injection time ... | 20:00 |
| kanzure | ... the localized injection resulted in clear anterograde and retrograde BDA labeling both within the cortex and in subcortical structures. Anterograde and retrograde labeling revealed the fine details of neuronal processes including dendritic spines and axon terminal-like endings. Injection sites appeared clear lacking any strong diffuse background labeling. Electrophysiological recording performed with the same microdevice immediately ... | 20:00 |
| kanzure | ... after the iontophoresis indicated normal cortical functioning. The results prove that the combination of in vivo multichannel neural recording and controlled tracer injection using a single implanted microdevice is feasible, and therefore it can be a powerful tool for studying the connectome of the brain." | 20:00 |
| kanzure | "Area-Specific Features of Pyramidal Neurons—a Comparative Study in Mouse and Rhesus Monkey" http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2016/03/09/cercor.bhw062.abstract | 20:01 |
| kanzure | "A principal challenge of systems neuroscience is to understand the unique characteristics of cortical neurons and circuits that enable area- and species-specific sensory encoding, motor function, cognition, and behavior. To address this issue, we compared properties of layer 3 pyramidal neurons in 2 cortical areas that span a broad range of cortical function—primary sensory (V1), to cognitive (frontal)—in the mouse and the rhesus ... | 20:02 |
| kanzure | ... monkey. Hierarchical clustering and discriminant analyses of 15 physiological and 25 morphological variables revealed 2 fundamental principles. First, V1 and frontal neurons are remarkably similar with regard to nearly every property in the mouse, while the opposite is true in the monkey, with V1 and frontal neurons exhibiting significant differences in nearly every property assessed. Second, neurons within visual and frontal areas ... | 20:02 |
| kanzure | ... differ significantly between the mouse and the monkey. Neurons in mouse and monkey V1 are the same size, but differ in nearly every other way; mouse frontal cortical neurons are smaller than those in the monkey and also differ substantially with regard to most other properties. These findings have broad implications for understanding the differential contributions of heterogeneous neuronal types in construction of cortical ... | 20:02 |
| kanzure | ... microcircuitry in diverse brain areas and species." | 20:02 |
| kanzure | this thing seems to propose algorithmic simplification and reduction of neural microcircuitry or neural morphology during simulation http://arxiv.org/pdf/1604.00087.pdf (see page 21) | 20:03 |
| kanzure | anyway the "comparative connectomics" paper above is a step in the right direction although i wouldn't mind way more specimens in that sort of approach | 20:05 |
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| kanzure | .wik sirt1 | 20:19 |
| yoleaux | "Sirtuin 1, also known as NAD-dependent deacetylase sirtuin-1, is a protein that in humans is encoded by the SIRT1 gene." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirt1 | 20:19 |
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| maaku | xentrac_ landers have ballast to move the moment of inertia | 21:02 |
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| xentrac_ | maaku: I see | 21:16 |
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| maaku | xentrac_: well obviously the engineering ideal is to require no ballast, but usually the things are lopsided due to instrumentation | 22:54 |
| maaku | so adding a kilogram weight on the opposite side might be needed to rebalance | 22:54 |
| maaku | my proposal is simply to have a very special kilogram weight with a sampling of refined commodities, to seed the market | 22:55 |
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