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| kanzure | deqfdsadadfafwq | 05:44 |
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| mz_o__ | yes | 05:46 |
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| fenn | getting chinese spam with subject "Fabrication of 3D biocompatible biodegradable micro-scaffolds" | 09:45 |
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| mz_o__ | whats in the body? | 09:52 |
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| kanzure | i have a strange collection of that sort of spam | 09:53 |
| Regex_ | kanzure: I read that as 'strange connection with' | 09:55 |
| mz_o__ | lol what makes it spam? Just bs? | 09:55 |
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| kanzure | it's literally spam. | 10:01 |
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| kanzure | rsa vs elliptic curve https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11910357 | 10:04 |
| kanzure | was from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11908990 | 10:05 |
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| jrayhawk | https://vimeo.com/64911927 "LiquidPison X Engine" inverse wankel engine | 14:27 |
| jrayhawk | x engine is a really fucking stupid name for it, though | 14:27 |
| jrayhawk | considering that's already occupied by opposed-double-v piston engines | 14:28 |
| jrayhawk | er, "LiquidPiston" | 14:28 |
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| docl | has anyone yet attempted to design a manufacturing system for space that's really small (say 1kg or less)? | 15:49 |
| docl | I'm thinking it could rendezvous with a chunk of space junk, converting it into a larger propulsion system and power collector, then keep grabbing more and more chunks to bootstrap. | 15:50 |
| kanzure | before you get a 1 kg system defined, i think you sohuld start with a much larger system | 15:52 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure freitas finished his space automation manufacturing design stuff | 15:53 |
| kanzure | such as re: set of required manufacturing processes and feasibility of that | 15:53 |
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| docl | woah, small sats cost more to launch than I thought. http://www.spaceflightindustries.com/schedule-pricing/ | 15:57 |
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| kanzure | what do you consider small? aren't they all the size of buses? | 15:59 |
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| maaku | docl_: there are groups working on cube sats to the moon and mars | 16:15 |
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| maaku | if you could somehow design a cubesat lander (more like impactor) that would be an obvious opportunity | 16:15 |
| maaku | kanzure: I'm not sure the freitas space automation stuff ever went further than the systems engineering report nasa did | 16:16 |
| maaku | at least I can find no evidence other than that | 16:16 |
| docl | well, I should probably take another look at dani eder's work https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Seed_Factories | 16:16 |
| maaku | docl: I would start nearer to home. make a self-replicating machine shop that works with sand | 16:17 |
| kanzure | more broadly, the characterization work needs to be done first | 16:17 |
| kanzure | implementation can come later, lots of people can do it, if they know what things are required | 16:18 |
| kanzure | no reason to just start making aimlessly long list of machines | 16:18 |
| docl | he calls them seed factories because they start out more primitive and perform upgrades as they grow | 16:18 |
| kanzure | it doesn't matter whta he calls them if he never figured out the details | 16:18 |
| maaku | i had a friend from nasa, who stangely is a fisherman in san diego now, who was a hardware tinkerer and very interested in building a self-repairing sandcrawler that moves along the sahara pooping out roads and solar panels | 16:19 |
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| kanzure | what is repairful about roads? | 16:19 |
| maaku | kanzure: no that's just useful output. it repairs itself. | 16:19 |
| docl | something that has to function on earth over a long period of time seems to have different design constraints than space | 16:19 |
| maaku | docl: not really? | 16:20 |
| kanzure | docl: sure; but so far, as far as i know, nobody has come up with an actual list of required/mandatory manufacturing processes. | 16:20 |
| maaku | there's some material considerations, and vacuum vs atmosphere, but the challenges of space engineering are mostly mass limitations, who go away when you're considering ISRU self replication | 16:20 |
| docl | maaku: gravity and vacuum vs atmosphere are the main things that come to mind. | 16:21 |
| kanzure | with skdb one of our ideas was "somehow convince everyone to do hardware automation debian-style packages, and then look at the requirements/dependencies and try to do graph search to find cycles that seem to fully self-replicate" but there's lots of problems with getting to the point where you have enough data to begin doing those queries (the queries themselves are trivial to implement) | 16:22 |
| maaku | those mostly just mean you have to do things differently, and/or think about things engineers stuck on our gravity well don't typically think about | 16:22 |
| maaku | but don't pose any unsurmountable or even super challenging problems, once you're used to it | 16:22 |
| maaku | bigger problems are how you test things meant for non-Earth gravity before launching.. | 16:22 |
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| kanzure | another way to do this is to list out the resources available to work from (moon rock and moon dust), then work backwards from there and find the minimum set of vitamin components required from earth launches | 16:24 |
| maaku | another way is build the automated design tools that do that for you :P | 16:25 |
| kanzure | yes if there was data available, sure..... | 16:26 |
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| maaku | what more do you need beyond http://www.hbcpnetbase.com/ plus http://pds-geosciences.wustl.edu/missions/lro/ ? | 16:30 |
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| kanzure | seems the first one requires a login | 16:50 |
| docl | huh, I should have started the thought experiment with less mass. 1 gram costs $100 if 1kg is $100,000. | 17:35 |
| xentrac | maaku: hmm, just sand? That's an interesting idea — but I think you'll need more than just quartz sand | 17:54 |
| xentrac | I mean you can fuse quartz and spin it into fiber in order to get things of high tensile strength, but you can't do that in quartz crucibles! | 17:56 |
| xentrac | I suspect that you need at least two materials that "harden" in different ways in order to get to self-replication | 17:58 |
| xentrac | such that each of them can survive and direct the hardening cycle of the other | 17:59 |
| kanzure | also you can cheat by having lots of vitamin resources/parts | 18:00 |
| xentrac | so, for example, you could use calcium sulfate plaster (as Freitas suggests), which hardens by recrystallizing when water is added, to make molds for a molten metal | 18:01 |
| xentrac | and you can use the metal to make the equipment for roasting the calcium sulfate hemihydrate back into anhydrous calcium sulfate, which can be done at a lower temperature than needed to melt the metal, but takes longer | 18:02 |
| xentrac | but there are lots of candidate material pairs you could possibly use for that kind of thing, and lots of different hardening processes | 18:07 |
| xentrac | cross-linking, treatment with acids and alkalis, carbonation of portland cement, dehydration (e.g. of sodium silicate), polymerization, and so on | 18:09 |
| xentrac | I wish I could do a query on matweb for something like [solubility [in water] [tempC < 50] [gramsPerLiter > 100]] [meltingPoint tempC > 800] | 18:11 |
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| xentrac | a really simple, if expensive, self-replication cycle is the one used historically in machining: tempered steel cuts untempered steel to the desired shape, with sufficient care about not overheating the workpiece, and then you temper the workpiece | 18:13 |
| xentrac | but of course tempering the workpiece involves a furnace, which involves refractory firebrick, which you can't make with steel; you need a kiln, made out of that same or similar firebrick | 18:19 |
| xentrac | a big problem for moon usage is that there's very little hydrogen available, although you might be able to recycle it | 18:22 |
| xentrac | and hydrogen oxide is the standard plasticizer for firebrick before sintering | 18:23 |
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| xentrac | A thing I've been wondering lately, actually, inspired by Marshall Brain's _Manna_: volcanoes successfully blow basalt and andesite into foam called scoria; basalt and andesite are mostly just quartz and plagioclase feldspar. can we do this artificially? | 20:29 |
| xentrac | I've seen videos of basalt casting for statuary, and the temperatures don't look that outrageous | 20:29 |
| xentrac | and actually felsic lavas like those that form scoria are typically around 700°, which is a totally manageable temperature; even table salt can withstand that (although I don't know if you could actually make lava-melting crucibles out of it, since I suspect it would dissolve) | 20:32 |
| xentrac | presumably to get significant amounts of gas dissolved in your lava, you need a pressure vessel, and this seems like it could be dangerous | 20:34 |
| xentrac | I mean I don't know how much pressure you need, but when the terrafoam comes out, it's gonna spatter | 20:35 |
| xentrac | scoria (or the less dense terrafoam known as pumice) has a lot of potential advantages as a construction material, if you can make it cheap enough | 20:36 |
| xentrac | you get the usual high strength-to-weight ratio of foams, along with the better heat resistance of stone, and the ability to use dirt-cheap raw material | 20:39 |
| xentrac | http://www.google.com/patents/US4933306 suggests that up to the 1980s anyway artificial pumice was made by blowing concrete or ceramics with blowing agents, suggests using waste glass instead, and suggests a variety of "cellulating agents" to produce blowing gases when heated | 20:42 |
| xentrac | one of which is calcium carbonate, which seems likely to be a part of nearly any Earth-based seed factory — it's a necessary ingredient for portland cement, it's a refractory superior to firebrick for many purposes, it converts water-soluble sodium silicate into conventional soda-lime glass, and calcined by itself, it's an adhesive, a CO₂ scrubber, and a white paint | 20:45 |
| xentrac | on the moon, things are very different; carbonates and quartz are completely absent | 20:47 |
| xentrac | Google offers to sell me a book about the geological prospects of lunar mining on Google Play for $2248.48 | 20:51 |
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| Regex_ | xentrac: but will you buy it? | 20:53 |
| xentrac | not today | 21:09 |
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| maaku | xentrac: anything in a book is out of date | 22:12 |
| maaku | docl: $/kg to LEO/GEO/lunar-insertion/etc. is misleading. In reality you pay by the rocket, and those have fixed costs and fixed payload capacity. | 22:13 |
| xentrac | maaku: what just changed? | 22:14 |
| maaku | unless you piggyback essentially for free. one of the most interesting ways to do this is to hitch a ride on a GEO injection stage | 22:14 |
| xentrac | cubesat launchers don't pay by the rocket; they pay by the cubsat | 22:14 |
| maaku | xentrac: LRO, LCROSS, Chang | 22:14 |
| xentrac | .wik lunar lro | 22:15 |
| yoleaux | xentrac: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed. | 22:15 |
| maaku | http://lunar.gsfc.nasa.gov/ | 22:15 |
| xentrac | Chang'e? | 22:15 |
| maaku | yeah | 22:15 |
| maaku | xentrac: right, cubesats are essentially free since they use up excess space | 22:16 |
| maaku | of course they'll stil charge you, but an affordable price | 22:16 |
| maaku | the GEO injection stage is interesting because by international treaty anything you put up in space (including spent boosters) you must clean up to prevent space junk | 22:17 |
| maaku | so these 3rd stage booster rockets deliver the satelite to its designated orbit in GEO, *and then re-light to escape Earth's gravity into a heliocentric orbit* (since that qualifies as safe, and is cheaper than getting the thing back to the atmosphere) | 22:18 |
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| maaku | that's the same delta-v you need to get to the moon, interset a NEO, or (if you are very patient) get on the slowest route to Mars | 22:19 |
| maaku | so you could probably get <100kg to the moon or a NEO for negligible real added cost | 22:20 |
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| maaku | .title http://www.lunar-cubes.com/ | 22:22 |
| yoleaux | Lunar Cubes | A Lunar Initiative | 22:22 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jun 16 00:00:31 2016 | ||
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