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| kanzure | bloop | 06:24 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/08/08/letter-publishers-group-adds-debate-over-sci-hub-and-librarians-who-study-it | 06:28 |
| kanzure | https://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/4w6tsv/ama_we_are_the_google_brain_team_wed_love_to/ | 06:30 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=3b6c224c Bryan Bishop: transcript: mimblewimble podcast >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/mimblewimble-podcast/ | 08:05 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=b82280bc Bryan Bishop: transript about mimblewimble >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/mimblewimble-podcast/ | 08:05 |
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| kanzure | aroo? | 08:09 |
| kanzure | oh, links. | 08:10 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=ed9a678e Bryan Bishop: fix backlinks for mimblewimble >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/mimblewimble-podcast/ | 08:28 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=0d80a41c apoelstra: Add missing line after (1h 12min) about what Pieter learned from Andrew >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/mimblewimble-podcast/ | 08:41 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=1aeb63e7 apoelstra: correct description of anagram in french >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/mimblewimble-podcast/ | 08:48 |
| kanzure | :D pfft now i'm expected to transcribe french correctly? | 08:50 |
| andytoshi | hahaha | 08:51 |
| andytoshi | kanzure: this one is really great, there are cross-references everywhere and it's really clear what's going on | 08:51 |
| kanzure | :) | 08:52 |
| andytoshi | also thanks for translating my "uhhh google it and find the reddit links" into actual URLs | 08:53 |
| kanzure | i actually went a step beyond that-- the other reddit thread has a backlink to the podcast now :P https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4vub3y/mimblewimble_noninteractive_coinjoin_and_better/d693jr3 | 08:54 |
| kanzure | i like how they are calling you a monero shill in that thread when you explain monero's tech | 08:56 |
| kanzure | that's pretty cute. | 08:56 |
| kanzure | https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4woyc0/mimblewimble_interview_with_andrew_poelstra_and/d6943jf?context=1 | 08:57 |
| andytoshi | haha, yeah | 08:57 |
| andytoshi | "i'm making a lot of assumptions without really understanding mimble wimble" | 08:57 |
| andytoshi | guess he should've been on the show instead | 08:58 |
| kanzure | "voldemort is very displeased with these developments" hehehe | 08:59 |
| andytoshi | hehehehe | 08:59 |
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| andytoshi | weird, he apologized then said that my understanding did in fact seem to be based on "more than just the podcast" | 09:18 |
| kanzure | what! an apology on the internet? unlikely. | 09:20 |
| andytoshi | yeah, must be a bot or something | 09:20 |
| thesnark | I tried apologizing when being an asshole | 09:33 |
| thesnark | it's kind of addicting if you're effective at it | 09:33 |
| thesnark | the responses are usually better than imagined | 09:33 |
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| JayDugger | On the internet, no one knows if you cross your fingers while apologizing. | 10:04 |
| thesnark | but at some point, why would you? | 10:05 |
| thesnark | you don't *have* to be friends with anybody and usually manipulation is detectable with behavior rather than something simple like an apology | 10:05 |
| JayDugger | Apologize? or crossing fingers? | 10:06 |
| thesnark | why would you cross your fingers? | 10:06 |
| JayDugger | Sometimes it makes the crow tastes bad when you have to eat it. | 10:06 |
| kanzure | crossing your fingers makes you type faster, duh | 10:06 |
| thesnark | heh | 10:06 |
| JayDugger | ha. | 10:07 |
| thesnark | speaking of manipulation....anybody know of good methods for prioritizing expenses in open source projects | 10:11 |
| thesnark | as of now I have only seen argument megathreads where people attack each other | 10:11 |
| thesnark | there has to be a better way... | 10:11 |
| kanzure | yes, it's called "having someone who is responsible for the funds" | 10:12 |
| thesnark | kanzure would you try to balance that responsibility with some kind of democratic process in which devs participate? | 10:13 |
| andytoshi | thesnark: i would not, honestly | 10:13 |
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| kanzure | thesnark: absolutely not | 10:13 |
| andytoshi | thesnark: i've worked on open source projects where the lead dev privately emailed me, said "so we have this fund, i'm going to mail you a check" | 10:13 |
| kanzure | thesnark: if you make it about voting then developers get turned into political targets moreso | 10:14 |
| andytoshi | and aside from that private email i did not even know "this fund" existed. it worked very well, i guarantee with the devs on this project that there'd be constant arguing if we tried to be democratinc | 10:14 |
| kanzure | thesnark: it's better to just spend money however you see fit. | 10:14 |
| kanzure | thesnark: open-source is the commercial side of free software, after all. and in companies that's how it works. | 10:14 |
| thesnark | sure...project I'm with is a 501c3 though | 10:15 |
| thesnark | I actually agree that democracy is not optimal | 10:15 |
| kanzure | 501c3s are command-control hierarchies | 10:15 |
| thesnark | how to convince everybody else of that... | 10:15 |
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| kanzure | have you considered roasting their brains and having a feast? | 10:15 |
| kanzure | this seems like a more optimal strategy | 10:15 |
| thesnark | kanzure, tempting | 10:15 |
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| pasky | maaku, kanzure: just saw https://github.com/hlt-mt/TranscRater on ACL - supposed to be able to cleverly compare quality of several ASR systems | 13:19 |
| kanzure | ACL? | 13:19 |
| pasky | !g ACL Berlin 2016 | 13:20 |
| chris_99 | maaku, did you have a looky at that CNN paper out of interest, i'm curious how that compares to ones where you do lots of preprocessing | 13:21 |
| maaku | chris_99: I did, and there's other similar work we were looking at too | 13:21 |
| maaku | we're not going to be preprocessing the input at all, I think the science is pretty clear on that | 13:21 |
| chris_99 | cool | 13:22 |
| maaku | although for long-term storage I think beamforming & filtering makes a lot of sense, before compressing the audio stream | 13:22 |
| maaku | so I still have to figure out how to reconcile that | 13:22 |
| chris_99 | are you gonna implement it through something like TensorFlow? | 13:23 |
| kanzure | i like keras a lot, which is compatible with both theano and tensorflow | 13:24 |
| chris_99 | cool | 13:24 |
| chris_99 | are you planning on using a GPU with a lot of RAM? | 13:26 |
| kanzure | many gpu | 13:26 |
| kanzure | i think eleitl is our local resident infiniband supplier | 13:26 |
| kanzure | he's probably been stockpiling that shit for years | 13:26 |
| chris_99 | :) i think i saw an nvidia 16GB one, but it was like £1k :( | 13:26 |
| chris_99 | oh nice | 13:26 |
| maaku | long term? a rack full of 1U servers each with 4x of these : https://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2016/07/21/titan-x/ | 13:27 |
| maaku | short term? MS Azure gpu instances are cheap and basically the same hardware class | 13:28 |
| chris_99 | fancy | 13:29 |
| pasky | hmm why did you choose azure over aws? | 13:43 |
| pasky | never really looked at azure | 13:43 |
| Reventlov | azure is 4 years in the past compared to aws | 13:44 |
| Reventlov | they're trying to bait people into using it by being compatible with a lot of stuff | 13:44 |
| Reventlov | but the web administrations interface suck, are all over the place between old and new versions | 13:44 |
| Reventlov | don't lose your time :| | 13:44 |
| maaku | Reventlov: azure just added new gpu instances. look it up | 13:45 |
| maaku | pasky: aws is crazy expensive for what they offer, their gpus are years out of date with small ram | 13:45 |
| pasky | sorry for stupid questions, i'm on iodine; so they offer much better gpus for similar price? | 13:46 |
| maaku | https://azure.microsoft.com/en-us/blog/azure-n-series-preview-availability/ | 13:46 |
| maaku | pasky: in a nutshell, yes | 13:46 |
| maaku | current generation, 12GB per gpu, local ssd, and cheaper than amazon | 13:47 |
| maaku | anyone looked at wavelets transforms for ASR? | 13:51 |
| maaku | something like http://www.asel.udel.edu/icslp/cdrom/vol4/356/a356.pdf | 13:51 |
| kanzure | maaku: i would also suggest asking in #swhack because they do stupid things with language | 13:52 |
| maaku | "The main advantage of scalograms (SCWT) over spectrograms (STFT) is that the former can preserve both the harmonic structure and the formant structure of the speech signal, resembling analysis performed by the human ear. In particular, sharp onset points can be identified from the scalogram. Due to these features, SCWT seems to have potential application in phoneme speech recognition" | 13:55 |
| kanzure | yeah after looking at a lot of spectrograms of human speech i'm not convinced anyone has actually looked at this data. it's visualy difficult to distinguish between similar-sounding words. | 13:56 |
| kanzure | maaku: http://stevehanov.ca/wavelet/ see fancy diagram | 13:57 |
| maaku | The last time I looked at ASR spectrograms my conclusion was "why aren't people using wavelets?!?!" | 13:58 |
| kanzure | "Why hasn't this been done before? The main reason is because it takes a LOT of space to store the sound. A 5 minute mp3 file recorded at 44100 samples per second will contain 13230000 samples. In the frequency domain, each complex sample takes 8 bytes. So each frequency band (line in the image) that you are interested in would take about 100MB. The resulting wavelet transform would take up 218 GB. Modern operating systems have blazing ... | 13:58 |
| maaku | but I haven't found much post-deep-learning insurgency references | 13:59 |
| kanzure | ... fast disk access, so it's feasible to process these in a multi-gigabyte file. Or, if you are just interested in viewing the result and not reconstructing the original sound file, you can scale the image to whatever size you want." | 13:59 |
| kanzure | wavelet demo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRqtZWIirCA | 13:59 |
| maaku | that seems irrelvant..? store the file as standard compressed audio, and expand via wavelet transform prior to input into the neural net | 14:00 |
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| kanzure | agreed, not sure why he is complaining about storage. perhaps the math takes forever too? | 14:01 |
| Reventlov | kanzure: Can i mention your name on swhack ? | 14:02 |
| kanzure | yep sure | 14:02 |
| maaku | i'm pretty sure it doesn't. there are fast wavelet transforms (see jpeg2000 for example) | 14:02 |
| kanzure | alright then i revise my speculation to "maybe he's a moron" | 14:02 |
| kanzure | "I'd like to do it using the method described in the oblique projections paper, but I haven't had a chance to figure out the math. Apparently, this method is O(N), whereas the FFT method is O(Nlog(N)). If it were that fast, we wouldn't have to store it on disk at all It could just be recomputed on the fly whenever we need to display it." | 14:04 |
| archels | .title http://gigascience.biomedcentral.com/about | 14:18 |
| yoleaux | GigaScience | About | 14:18 |
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| kanzure | https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/bitcoin-core-devs-reach-out-to-coders-with-month-long-coding-classes-1470675341 | 16:02 |
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| mgin | hey | 18:33 |
| mgin | can anyone explain why this headline is so derogatory to "humans" specifically? http://futurism.com/ai-saves-womans-life-by-identifying-her-disease-when-other-methods-humans-failed/ | 18:34 |
| mgin | why are they celebrating how humans "failed"? it's so weird and malevolent | 18:34 |
| mgin | isn't the technological advancement a testament to the human mind and human innovation? why are they putting down humans? | 18:35 |
| mgin | I really don't understand the motivation for saying something like that | 18:35 |
| mgin | thoughts, anyone? | 18:39 |
| mgin | this is really bothering me | 18:39 |
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| thesnark | mgin it is playing on the sensationalized idea of man vs machine | 18:42 |
| thesnark | mgin basically more clicks | 18:42 |
| mgin | what do you mean? | 18:42 |
| thesnark | more discussion = more clicks | 18:44 |
| thesnark | more clicks = more ad money | 18:44 |
| thesnark | so naturally if they can write it in a sensationalized way to make it sound like a highly advanced AI did something that was impossible for a human, people will find this new and shocking | 18:44 |
| thesnark | it's headline grabbing | 18:44 |
| thesnark | hence the writing style | 18:44 |
| mgin | I get that, but why would they think suggesting "humans failed" is a matter of sensation? | 18:44 |
| thesnark | the suggestion is that it did something better than humans could have | 18:45 |
| maaku | mgin: because humans suck and need to die | 18:45 |
| mgin | maaku: that seems to be the implication, is that seriously a thing? | 18:50 |
| thesnark | mgin, yes | 18:50 |
| mgin | really? | 18:51 |
| kanzure | get out | 18:53 |
| maaku | for a friendlier than it sounds definition of "die", yes absolutely | 18:53 |
| mgin | can you explain that? | 18:54 |
| maaku | the title is just weak sensationalist editorializing however | 18:54 |
| mgin | is there a link you can send me? | 18:54 |
| kanzure | i strongly recommend not reading anything ever written by a journalist | 18:55 |
| mgin | that sounds extremely bizarre, I really want to know if this is a real thing | 19:00 |
| maaku | mgin: what do you mean by "real thing"? | 19:01 |
| mgin | if people actually hold this position | 19:01 |
| mgin | do people hold this position? is there a name for it? is there a manifesto or something written up to this end? | 19:02 |
| maaku | it is for example the obvious rationalist conclusion considering the risks humans put in the way of such nobel projects as making the universe intelligent | 19:03 |
| thesnark | mgin, that people suck and are generally inferior to machines? I think kurzweil calls unmodified humans moshes | 19:03 |
| thesnark | so something mosh discrimination or anti-mosh or something | 19:03 |
| thesnark | it would be hate based on cognitive ability, ultimately | 19:05 |
| thesnark | so whatever that is | 19:05 |
| maaku | they also seem to do weird things like point nuclear weapons at each other for esoteric primate power dynamics reasons | 19:05 |
| mgin | huh? | 19:05 |
| mgin | maaku: you're just railing about humans doing dumb things. I'm asking if this is an actual position people hold, that "humans suck and need to die", i.e. is there a name for this position? is there a manifesto or something, an intellectual leader who's written about this? | 19:06 |
| thesnark | misanthropy would be humans suck and need to die but not because they are inferior to machines...hmmm | 19:06 |
| mgin | thesnark: I don't see how advocating for enhancement is to say that "humans suck and are inferior to machines" | 19:06 |
| Malvolio | voluntary human extinction movement? | 19:07 |
| mgin | Malvolio: that's the only thing I know of to that end | 19:07 |
| thesnark | mgin, hm? No it isn't | 19:07 |
| saturn2 | antinatalism | 19:07 |
| thesnark | there we go | 19:07 |
| maaku | mgin: leader? terminology? not that I know of | 19:07 |
| maaku | the above ^ are technically slightly different but related | 19:08 |
| mgin | saturn2: but is this a scientific movement? that seems like something pretty obscure, not something responsible for this bizarre trend of people putting down humans as failures | 19:08 |
| kanzure | let me know when i should start banning people | 19:09 |
| thesnark | lul | 19:09 |
| mgin | thesnark: so that doesn't really answer the question, since the MOSH stuff is related to enhancement, not to denouncing humans per se | 19:09 |
| thesnark | mgin no sorry I was just saying that perhaps machines hating humans would be called something along the lines of anti-mosh discrimination or something | 19:10 |
| mgin | that's not what I'm asking about at all | 19:10 |
| thesnark | I think you're asking if there are really people who think in a derogatory way toward humans versus machines? | 19:12 |
| mgin | yeah, that seems to be the implication, the putting down of humans as flawed/failures | 19:13 |
| kanzure | take this somewhere else. and didn't i ban you? | 19:13 |
| mgin | huh? what's the matter? | 19:14 |
| mgin | and no I haven't been banned | 19:15 |
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| maaku | mgin: it's off-topic | 19:17 |
| mgin | I don't think so | 19:21 |
| maaku | mgin: what I mean is this isn't a discussion channel | 19:23 |
| maaku | and it is borderline philosophy, which is OT | 19:23 |
| mgin | oh. this isn't a discussion channel? | 19:24 |
| mgin | is there a discussion channel to take this to? | 19:25 |
| kanzure | this is not meant to be a discussion channel | 19:26 |
| mgin | I had no idea. is there a related discussion channel? | 19:27 |
| maaku | ##hplusroadmap-offtopic? (doesn't exist) | 19:32 |
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| streety | While I have much more interest in the comments on DNA synthesis, gpgpu's, machine learning, optical sensors etc that have come up recently I don't see how those comments are not discussion and the most recent subject was. | 20:16 |
| streety | off topic / low signal to noise I can see, but isn't everything discussion? | 20:16 |
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| kanzure | streety: projects and things we are working on vs philosophy about journalism and outrage culture | 20:22 |
| streety | I totally get the off topic assertion. Perhaps a meaning of discussion I'm not familiar with though | 20:32 |
| streety | it's a minor point | 20:32 |
| kanzure | *shrug* i don't mind your brand of devil's advocacy so far | 20:40 |
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| nmz787_ | you guys are weird | 21:48 |
| nmz787_ | s/guys/folks/ | 21:48 |
| nmz787_ | that mgin person seemed like they wanted a legitimate answer | 21:49 |
| nmz787_ | I mean, clickbait was reasonable, but in general a more straight-forward way to nip-this-in-the-bud is to point out that AI is technology, technology is inherently human created | 21:50 |
| nmz787_ | I mean, at least in a historical meaning pre-biology-is-technology slogans | 21:51 |
| nmz787_ | a more reasonable response just after: "18:45 < maaku> mgin: because humans suck and need to die" would have been something pointing to telomeres and shitty bugs in 'human code' which literally in a formal verification kind of sense means we MUST die, or at least the inverse of we haven't been able to prove a way NOT to die | 21:53 |
| nmz787_ | thus leading in to scientific articles on cancer pathways, blah blah blha, CRISPR, yada yada, gut flora, epigenetics, etc... | 21:54 |
| nmz787_ | "18:34 < mgin> can anyone explain why this headline is so derogatory to "humans" specifically?" -- because humans are sick and tired of being sick and tired, and are crying out for advance, are are just cynical and self-destructive | 21:56 |
| nmz787_ | s/are are just cynical/or are just cynical/ | 21:56 |
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| nmz787_ | kanzure: anyone here that would benefit from being sponsored to take this? http://www.gatan.com/company/events/eels-eftem-analysis-training-school-october-2016 | 22:00 |
| nmz787_ | fenn: ? | 22:00 |
| kanzure | yeah maybe one of the counter culture labs people... | 22:01 |
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| maaku | maybe I'm dense, I honestly didn't understand what mgin was asking | 22:43 |
| maaku | at first at least | 22:46 |
| maaku | i hope we didn't scare him away :( | 22:47 |
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