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| kanzure | "The discrete logarithm problem over prime fields can be transformed to a linear multivariable Chinese remainder theorem" https://arxiv.org/abs/1608.07032 | 07:55 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | "We show that the classical discrete logarithm problem over prime fields can be reduced to that of solving a system of linear modular equations." | 07:55 |
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| CaptHindsight | 80 million reasons why Lasergen doesn't sell their terminators to anyone but Agilent | 10:00 |
| CaptHindsight | https://www.genomeweb.com/sequencing-technology/agilent-invests-80m-lasergen | 10:01 |
| CaptHindsight | so you just have to make your own | 10:02 |
| CaptHindsight | ChinaCo Cloudzapping Terminators | 10:03 |
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| nmz787_ | CaptHindsight: someone told me to check into cross-state-line laws about refusal to sell... not sure there are any laws | 11:45 |
| nmz787_ | CaptHindsight: I also thought of the company who got sued for not selling a 'gay cake'... maybe I could try buying some 'gay nucleotides' and make a fuss when they won't sell | 11:45 |
| nmz787_ | CaptHindsight: also, does agilent even make anything for synthesis? | 11:47 |
| nmz787_ | CaptHindsight: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-supply-chain/refusal-supply | 11:49 |
| nmz787_ | "A firm's refusal to deal with any other person or company is lawful so long as the refusal is not the product of an anticompetitive agreement with other firms or part of a predatory or exclusionary strategy to acquire or maintain a monopoly. This principle was laid out by the Supreme Court more than 85 years ago:" | 11:49 |
| nmz787_ | idk, maybe that kind of pressure would work | 11:49 |
| nmz787_ | kanzure: know any texan business lawyers you could ping about this? | 11:52 |
| CaptHindsight | nmz787_: http://www.genomics.agilent.com/article.jsp?pageId=2011&_requestid=99988 | 11:53 |
| maaku | Things can be de facto illegal cross state without being an explicit statute due to differences between state and federal law. | 11:55 |
| kanzure | nmz787_: use lawdingo | 11:55 |
| nmz787_ | CaptHindsight: what about it? nothing new | 11:55 |
| nmz787_ | CaptHindsight: or are you saying that it could be anti-competitive behaviour? | 11:56 |
| CaptHindsight | nmz787_: what they make | 11:56 |
| maaku | E.g selling cannabis to medical distributors across state borders is illegal, | 11:56 |
| nmz787_ | since it is somewhat related to synthesis | 11:56 |
| maaku | But within California or Colorado it would be fine | 11:56 |
| CaptHindsight | don't how much they actually make in-house | 11:56 |
| CaptHindsight | not sure who is actually going to get FDA approval in the next 20 years | 12:00 |
| CaptHindsight | uhmericans will probably end up having to travel to Asia or Europe for any gene therapy | 12:01 |
| nmz787_ | have there been amazing strides recently that would warrant the FDA to change? | 12:04 |
| CaptHindsight | probably cheaper to give the formulations to someone in China than hire a lawyer | 12:04 |
| CaptHindsight | http://www.sbsbio.com/news/englishnew/index.php | 12:09 |
| nmz787_ | formulations of what though, last I knew CRISPR isn't ready for mass-use | 12:09 |
| nmz787_ | emailed | 12:11 |
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| juri_ | we have a CRISPR kit at our space. | 12:47 |
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| nmz787_ | hmm, Kivy seems pretty simple so far for Android development... and supports openCV and C code (somehow, supposedly) | 13:47 |
| kanzure | you can also run regular old python if you install python or run debian in a chroot on android | 13:47 |
| nmz787_ | debian in chroot doesn't work as expected, lots of issues with core kernel calls or something | 13:48 |
| nmz787_ | not sure regular python (at least qPython) can run openCV extensions or have build system to handle C code (not sure Kivy has this either, but it is downloading the NDK now) | 13:49 |
| chris_99 | does it create an apk with the python interpreter bundled then? | 13:49 |
| nmz787_ | i feel like not | 13:49 |
| nmz787_ | i don't honestly know | 13:49 |
| nmz787_ | but my guess is it interprets and converts it somehow | 13:49 |
| chris_99 | ah hmm | 13:50 |
| nmz787_ | but I could be totally off | 13:50 |
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| nmz787_ | maybe it packages the interpreter, and then compiles bindings to native calls | 13:50 |
| chris_99 | does anyone know anything more responsive that Matplotlib for Python per chance, it seems ridiculously slow when i try to open the graph full screen (around 1.4mil points) | 13:50 |
| nmz787_ | annnnd I'm out of space on this drive :/ | 13:50 |
| nmz787_ | yeah matplotlib isn't too great for performance or actually as nice as matlab's plotting | 13:51 |
| nmz787_ | I use pyqt, opencv, or wxpython for drawing stuff | 13:51 |
| chris_99 | ah hmm, i was looking for a simple graphing api, but can't seem to find any alternatives really | 13:52 |
| nmz787_ | ugh, how did this space thing happen, I swear I just cleared a bunch of space a few days ago | 13:52 |
| nmz787_ | android SDKs must be to blame | 13:52 |
| nmz787_ | chris_99: gnuPlot is decent | 13:53 |
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| nmz787_ | chris_99: you could also save to image, then display that fullscreen with a better program | 13:53 |
| chris_99 | does gnuplot let you zoom into parts of a graph, it's been a while since i've used it | 13:53 |
| nmz787_ | nah gnuPlot is command line and generates images | 13:53 |
| nmz787_ | pyqt might be of interest if you want interactive, it is supposed to be pretty fast... but it is a pain to work with | 13:54 |
| nmz787_ | wxPython has MANY more examples | 13:54 |
| chris_99 | i'm actually trying to compare multiple graphs visually, which is harder that it should be heh | 13:54 |
| nmz787_ | I prefer wxPython for GUI stuff | 13:54 |
| nmz787_ | wxPython is pretty darn fast | 13:54 |
| chris_99 | okey pokey, i'll look into that, maybe they even having a graphing component | 13:54 |
| nmz787_ | strange they only seem to release the demo pack for windows... but realistically most of the demos should be cross-platform so I think your big challenge will just be unpacking this http://downloads.sourceforge.net/wxpython/wxPython3.0-win32-docs-demos-3.0.2.0.exe | 13:55 |
| nmz787_ | chris_99: what kind of graphs? | 13:55 |
| nmz787_ | chris_99: http://www.blog.pythonlibrary.org/2010/09/27/wxpython-pyplot-graphs-with-python/ | 13:56 |
| chris_99 | they're graphs from my scope from a uCurrent, for power analysis | 13:56 |
| nmz787_ | mouse vs python has lots of great walkthroughs too | 13:56 |
| nmz787_ | ah, cool | 13:56 |
| chris_99 | "Now we’re going to look at how to create a point plot with 25,000 plots! This one is also from the demo. Here’s the code:" well this looks promising :) | 13:57 |
| nmz787_ | yeah if this is all you need, no need for the demo pack | 13:57 |
| chris_99 | mm thats all i need really | 13:57 |
| nmz787_ | I believe I did some zooming work using that plotting method | 14:00 |
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| justanotheruser | http://www.bmj.com/content/327/7429/1459 | 14:37 |
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| kanzure | .title | 14:41 |
| yoleaux | Parachute use to prevent death and major trauma related to gravitational challenge: systematic review of randomised controlled trials | The BMJ | 14:41 |
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| Forrest | Hey, what's the most disruptive tech project someone with access to these tools should take on? https://wiki.rit.edu/display/smfl/Tool+Set | 15:24 |
| Forrest | Asking for a friend. | 15:25 |
| Forrest | This someone has a biomedical degree and has worked developing powered exoskeletons. | 15:26 |
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| kanzure | Forrest: probably dna synthesis | 15:43 |
| kanzure | or, microfluidics for virus manufacturing | 15:43 |
| Forrest | he's interested in biosensing, I know that much | 15:47 |
| kanzure | aptamer stuff would also be a reasonable project for lithography stuff | 15:47 |
| kanzure | for instance, SELEX on a chip to make aptasensors | 15:47 |
| nmz787_ | Forrest: I used the SMFL at RIT | 15:50 |
| nmz787_ | Forrest: tell them to talk to Dr Lamkin-Kennard | 15:50 |
| nmz787_ | at least | 15:50 |
| Forrest | Oh cool, thanks. | 15:50 |
| nmz787_ | Forrest: also https://people.rit.edu/lffeee/ | 15:51 |
| nmz787_ | and maybe https://people.rit.edu/deeemc/ | 15:51 |
| nmz787_ | also for sure Dr Robert Kremens | 15:52 |
| nmz787_ | and potentially Jon Schull | 15:52 |
| nmz787_ | Forrest: I don't remember the name, but I think there was someone working on MEMS mass-spectrometers there too | 15:54 |
| Forrest | oh that's wild | 15:55 |
| Forrest | I remember getting excited when I found out about the mems vacuum pumps evacuating 1mm on a side areas | 15:55 |
| Forrest | I figured it'd mean gas analysis in cell phones and such | 15:55 |
| Forrest | small fast and low power | 15:56 |
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| CaptHindsight | a small chemical synthesizer that fits into a cell phone would be nice | 15:57 |
| CaptHindsight | along with an analyzer one could capture and playback the odors along with pictures | 15:58 |
| CaptHindsight | images just don't capture the experience of being in some places | 15:58 |
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| Forrest | plus portable geosync gas analysis would be hot stuff | 16:03 |
| Forrest | new kinds of weather | 16:03 |
| Forrest | early warning if the atmosphere is not so nice where you're at | 16:03 |
| Forrest | tracking people by perfumes.. | 16:03 |
| Forrest | shazam for molecules! | 16:04 |
| kanzure | nmz787_: Forrest also has an interest in radio proteis | 16:05 |
| kanzure | ... radio proteins. | 16:05 |
| nmz787_ | Forrest: http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/biological%20radio%20research/ | 16:05 |
| nmz787_ | FWIW | 16:05 |
| nmz787_ | lots of crazy possible misinformation in therer | 16:05 |
| Forrest | oh snap | 16:06 |
| nmz787_ | or maybe I limited that stuff and didn't upload it | 16:06 |
| nmz787_ | It's been a while | 16:06 |
| Forrest | yeah, copying from conversation earlier | 16:06 |
| Forrest | did I ever tell you about that map-k pathway theory with the cell phones? This was years ago, Jacob Schiach and I were looking for clues to identify potential RF controlled proteins and there were all these papers from back when the news was saying cell phones gave you brain cancer mostly bad bad science, but there was a lot of pressure and funding for that stuff so there's a ton of it one paper in particular indicated mapk | 16:07 |
| nmz787_ | I would start with homing pigeon quantum spin stuff, and electric eels, as well as all the photosensors, and pit viper sensor | 16:07 |
| kanzure | Forrest: cutoff at "one paper in particular indicated mapk" message trucated | 16:07 |
| kanzure | .. truncated.. | 16:07 |
| Forrest | I'd have to go digging for it but jacob had the idea to use yeast 2-hybrid stuff to test and figure out which of the dozen likely proteins in the pathway were pairing off under radio stress it never got so far as testing, and tbh gluing half a GFP on the end of a protein would probably alter its radio response We got wrapped up in CSQ not long after, and the biolab didn't survive the next tx/rx move | 16:07 |
| Forrest | from a message in google chat with kanzure about a minute ago | 16:08 |
| nmz787_ | Forrest: my thoughts on this last few years is to just model your proteins as antennas somehow, and use analog RF toolsets that exist | 16:08 |
| nmz787_ | for antenna design | 16:08 |
| kanzure | probably that giant muscle spring protein would be a good place to start | 16:09 |
| nmz787_ | it would probably give you a shape or something, and then you'd have to figure out how to build the framework to position atoms of certain impedance or something at the required locations | 16:09 |
| Forrest | there's some really interesting non-bio radio stuff | 16:09 |
| nmz787_ | s/atoms/aminos/ | 16:09 |
| Forrest | plasma antennas are a favorite that nobody is talking about, outside of a company or two | 16:09 |
| Forrest | particularly when applied to ~70ghz radio | 16:10 |
| kanzure | Forrest: gene_hacker wants to do microfluidic radio stuff. liquid metals, etc. | 16:10 |
| Forrest | https://www.google.com/patents/US7109124 | 16:11 |
| kanzure | .title | 16:11 |
| Forrest | so, solid state plasma antennas | 16:11 |
| yoleaux | Patent US7109124 - Solid state plasma antenna - Google Patents | 16:11 |
| Forrest | live reconfigurable arrays | 16:11 |
| Forrest | can trigger different points to make a radiator and a moving reflector, do steerable pencil beams, etc | 16:12 |
| Forrest | if I were going to do it ultra-ghetto I'd use a VFD | 16:12 |
| Forrest | but the solid state stuff is sexy, and has a lot of potential in cell phones for high bandwidth ultra directional stuff | 16:13 |
| Forrest | that and radar | 16:13 |
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| Forrest | could actually do phased array style high speed radar, but without the pulse forming arrays | 16:14 |
| Forrest | Plasma Antennas Ltd has produced and sent these things off for verification, they're cool and they work | 16:17 |
| Forrest | but that company doesn't say shit about applying them, or selling them, etc | 16:17 |
| nmz787_ | chris_99: I see compilationg of python stuff happening | 16:17 |
| Forrest | they don't respond to emails from gmail addresses or something | 16:17 |
| chris_99 | nmz787_, oh interesting, with that android thing you mean? | 16:18 |
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| nmz787_ | well the kivy accelerometer demo worked pretty easily | 16:36 |
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| kanzure | http://book.bionumbers.org/how-many-chromosome-replications-occur-per-generation/ | 17:35 |
| kanzure | "Should the number of divisions have implications for the occurrence of cancer, which has mutations and replication at its essence? Different types of cancers are known to have very different lifetime risks that span several orders of magnitude. Recently, the number of stem cells and their division rates are becoming available. In a recent study (C. Tomasetti & B. Vogelstein, Nature, 347:78, 2015), researchers collected the number of ... | 17:37 |
| kanzure | ... total stem cell divisions in a lifetime for 31 tissue types and correlated it to the lifetime risk of cancer occurring in that tissue. The correlation was found to be striking at about 0.8. This high correlation leaves only a much smaller fraction to be explained by environmental factors or genetic predispositions, though these have been at the center of research for decades." | 17:37 |
| kanzure | bunch of weird comments on this page: "Cancer etiology. Variation in cancer risk among tissues can be explained by the number of stem cell divisions" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25554788 | 17:39 |
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| kanzure | "A linear correlation equal to 0.804 suggests that 65% (39% to 81%; 95% CI) of the differences in cancer risk among different tissues can be explained by the total number of stem cell divisions in those tissues. Thus, the stochastic effects of DNA replication appear to be the major contributor to cancer in humans." | 17:42 |
| kanzure | "Thus, the authors have a parameter that quantifies the "randomness" of cancer. By definition this parameter must be between 0% and 100%. The authors are 95% confident that it lies between 39% and 81%. | 17:42 |
| kanzure | " | 17:42 |
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| kanzure | not sure whether to stop saying "your cells replicate your genome all day long"; at minimum it looks like the production of pre-erythrocytes is 2 million/second in humans. | 17:53 |
| kanzure | "A human being's body experiences about 10 quadrillion cell divisions in a lifetime.[6]" | 17:57 |
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| kanzure | 10 million/second cellular replacement rate... but how many of those are nucleated? if 2 million/second are nucleated pre-erythrocytes (which i am not willing to count, because it's unclear whether those nucleated pre-erythrocytes are actually constructing unique genomes), then i guess it would be okay to say roughly 8 million genomes/sec. | 17:59 |
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| maaku | Well it's at least true of men in a certain way... | 18:20 |
| maaku | Seems like response to RF is something you can select for in a test tube doing random, mutated RNA replication and expression | 18:22 |
| maaku | Btw kanzure have you looked at getting programmability by modifying the active end of a ribosome? | 18:23 |
| maaku | You wouldn't even need RNA, just disable the catalysts for 19 amino acids when you want the 20th.. | 18:24 |
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| kanzure | maaku: in fact yes, https://groups.google.com/d/msg/enzymaticsynthesis/3YEEv0OULo0/zJZPETWDbMIJ | 18:28 |
| maaku | .title http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=36248 | 18:53 |
| yoleaux | An Interesting SETI Candidate in Hercules | 18:53 |
| maaku | Not quite a wow signal | 18:53 |
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| gene_hacker | liquid metal radio eh? | 19:22 |
| gene_hacker | seen some papers about that | 19:23 |
| gene_hacker | makes it easy to make reconfigurable antennas | 19:23 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=391f9abe Bryan Bishop: add blog post link >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/niac-2016/reconstituting-asteroids-into-mechnical-automata/ | 21:00 |
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| gene_hacker | was it software that made that transcript? | 21:57 |
| kanzure | maaku and i are working on software to make transcripts, but that particular transcript was typed by me | 21:58 |
| kanzure | also there was this one from the other day, http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/transcripts/seti-megastructures-jason-wright-2016/ | 21:59 |
| gene_hacker | honestly, the talk was pretty bad | 21:59 |
| gene_hacker | the part that was cut off was one of the guys in charge of NIAC essentially telling them that | 22:00 |
| kanzure | i would have liked to hear more about mechanical automation things they are doing | 22:00 |
| gene_hacker | well here's the thing, they don't seem to have much of a plan | 22:00 |
| kanzure | iirc their company is focused on preprocessing stl files for transmission to the space station | 22:00 |
| gene_hacker | they have some printers up there | 22:01 |
| gene_hacker | they also have this: http://www.madeinspace.us/projects/archinaut/ | 22:01 |
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| gene_hacker | you can also buy 'space ready' filament | 22:01 |
| gene_hacker | from them | 22:02 |
| kanzure | you mean resin? | 22:02 |
| gene_hacker | no filament | 22:02 |
| gene_hacker | stereolithography needs gravity to work | 22:02 |
| gene_hacker | FDM has no such restriction | 22:03 |
| gene_hacker | details are sparse on their mechanical automaton thing, but I am doubtful it will work | 22:04 |
| gene_hacker | it is unlikely they will be able to make it all mechanical | 22:04 |
| kanzure | my expectation is that if they do make anything at all, it's going to be mostly something with lots of vitamin parts that were manufactured on earth or in near-earth orbit, like pre-fabbed microchips | 22:04 |
| gene_hacker | the reason being is that in order to navigate they need to figure out what their attitude is, for that you need a star tracker | 22:05 |
| kanzure | navigation is only required if you goof up with your original calculations :) | 22:05 |
| gene_hacker | you could make a mechanical startracker, you'd just need an optical aperture larger than any telescope that has ever been made | 22:06 |
| gene_hacker | no you still need a way to get attitude | 22:06 |
| kanzure | if you slap chips and antennae on those objects, i think you would just transmit the course corrections to the asteroids themselves | 22:06 |
| xentrac | presumably the filament is made of resin, no, gene_hacker? | 22:06 |
| kanzure | "self-replication" is the problem with their plan, not the idea of installing tech on to asteroids | 22:07 |
| gene_hacker | nope, it's just regular thermoplastic | 22:07 |
| xentrac | regular thermoplastics are mostly resins | 22:07 |
| xentrac | unless you count things like soda-lime glass as "regular thermoplastics" | 22:07 |
| xentrac | I feel like self-replication is pretty close | 22:07 |
| gene_hacker | resin implies thermoset | 22:07 |
| xentrac | .g thermoplastic resin | 22:08 |
| yoleaux | xentrac: Sorry, that command (.g) crashed. | 22:08 |
| xentrac | .wik thermoplastic resin | 22:08 |
| yoleaux | xentrac: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed. | 22:08 |
| kanzure | i would expect to see earth-first mechanical self-replication long before i see seedcraft intercepting asteroids and doing kinematic self-replication stuff in space | 22:08 |
| xentrac | .title https://www.google.com.ar/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwje0bPW7eXOAhVJlpAKHb9hDFQQFghYMAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcomposite.about.com%2Fod%2Faboutcompositesplastics%2Fa%2FThermoplastic-Vs-Thermoset-Resins.htm&usg=AFQjCNHKW3bn9pCfhGPACGJHZlLe_JbKtw | 22:08 |
| yoleaux | xentrac: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page. | 22:08 |
| xentrac | https://polycomp.mse.iastate.edu/files/2012/01/9-Thermoplastic-Resin.pdf | 22:09 |
| kanzure | anyway; lots and lots of vitamin parts, is my expectation. in fact, it's probably cheaper to just ship out lots of vitamins in giant bundles to deliver to whatever location you are going to next, rather than bundling them all together on the same madeinspace "seedcraft". | 22:09 |
| gene_hacker | yeah transmitting course corrections could work if you can sense orientation remotely | 22:09 |
| kanzure | mirrors | 22:09 |
| gene_hacker | yeah it is | 22:09 |
| gene_hacker | it is amazing how many microcontrollers you can get in a kilogram | 22:10 |
| gene_hacker | other than that, there are asteroids with high native germanium content | 22:10 |
| gene_hacker | there are even some with native silicon! | 22:10 |
| xentrac | it's amazing what you can find on places that aren't crawling with photosynthetic organisms | 22:11 |
| kanzure | i think that for large scale self-replication in space, biology might be a good choice if we improve our biology lab tools faster than we figure out mechanical self-replication details | 22:12 |
| kanzure | e.g. select for organisms that can grow in vacums | 22:12 |
| gene_hacker | where do you get the volatiles | 22:12 |
| kanzure | *vacuums | 22:12 |
| xentrac | I suspect that MEMS flexures along the lines of Merkle's reversible buckling-spring thought experiment may turn out to be practical as more than a thought experiment? | 22:13 |
| gene_hacker | carbon, hydrogen, and nitrogen | 22:13 |
| kanzure | for organisms? you send food/vitamins. | 22:13 |
| gene_hacker | look if you really want to do mechanical computation, use fluidics | 22:13 |
| gene_hacker | you're gonna need a lot of vitamins then | 22:13 |
| xentrac | fluidics are appealing but I think flexures actually have most of their advantages | 22:14 |
| xentrac | and scale down better | 22:15 |
| xentrac | I mean we'll see | 22:15 |
| gene_hacker | for macroscale stuff, fluidics win in terms of speed | 22:15 |
| xentrac | yeah, for sure | 22:15 |
| xentrac | but we're talking about 1kHz there | 22:15 |
| xentrac | you probably know more about microfluidics than i do though | 22:16 |
| xentrac | so maybe I'm mistaken in my impression that the scaling laws for viscous losses are outrageously horrible for microfludics speed | 22:16 |
| gene_hacker | fluidics works at audio frequencies | 22:16 |
| gene_hacker | at the macroscale | 22:16 |
| xentrac | yeah | 22:16 |
| xentrac | sliding-contact machinery can work at ultrasound frequencies at the macroscale, barely | 22:17 |
| gene_hacker | same with fluidics | 22:17 |
| xentrac | flexures are, I think, considerably faster there | 22:17 |
| gene_hacker | mass | 22:18 |
| gene_hacker | I don't think I've ever heard of sliding contact machinery working at ultrasonic frequencies | 22:18 |
| xentrac | well, if you count air bearings, there are high-speed drills that reach 150krpm | 22:19 |
| xentrac | that's 16kHz | 22:19 |
| gene_hacker | but those don't compute or amplify information | 22:20 |
| xentrac | agreed | 22:20 |
| gene_hacker | fluidic oscillators have been demonstrated operating at high than that | 22:20 |
| xentrac | yeah | 22:21 |
| xentrac | what are the scaling laws for fluidic logic like? | 22:21 |
| gene_hacker | bad | 22:22 |
| xentrac | I mean aside from questions of signal propagation speeds, which you can deal with by pipelining, don't fluidic circuits get to outrageous power densities if you try to run them fast at the microscale? | 22:22 |
| gene_hacker | yes, at some point to get the same reynolds number, flow must become supersonic | 22:23 |
| xentrac | oh, I wasn't even thinking of that. ouch. | 22:23 |
| xentrac | is that really true? | 22:23 |
| gene_hacker | are you trying to do the feynman route to nanotech? | 22:23 |
| gene_hacker | yes | 22:23 |
| xentrac | (you could naïvely say that sound propagates a lot faster through UHMWPE or carbon fiber than through water or especially air, but I don't think signal propagation speed is as important as losses) | 22:24 |
| gene_hacker | so that's the other thing | 22:24 |
| gene_hacker | at high frequencies, you get more loss | 22:24 |
| xentrac | yeah, and generally that's true of flexures as well as fluidics | 22:25 |
| xentrac | I think flexures have lower absolute losses, but I don't yet have the depth of knowledge to say that with certainty | 22:26 |
| xentrac | and I think their scaling laws are very favorable, even if their energy consumption is always going to be orders of magnitude worse than electronics | 22:27 |
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| gene_hacker | well the whole reason merkle suggested flexures was to get reversible computation | 22:28 |
| xentrac | barring practical reversible classical computation, which I think we can probably bar | 22:28 |
| xentrac | yeah, I know | 22:28 |
| xentrac | but he was reduced to hand-waving about operating the thing at arbitrarily low frequencies | 22:28 |
| gene_hacker | which is supposed to be more efficient | 22:28 |
| gene_hacker | the whole thing was handwaving | 22:28 |
| xentrac | instead of showing calculations for the strain-rate-dependent viscoelastic behavior of some real material | 22:29 |
| xentrac | kind of, yeah | 22:29 |
| gene_hacker | no, I'm more worried about how you actually compute with it | 22:29 |
| xentrac | oh, I think that's actually pretty easy to solve | 22:29 |
| xentrac | I mean his McCulloch-Pitts majority buckling springs sound super feasible | 22:30 |
| gene_hacker | so how do you get data out? | 22:31 |
| kanzure | audio, color, pick your poison | 22:32 |
| gene_hacker | for merkle's buckling springs, you have to load and unload everything in a strange manner for each compute cycle | 22:35 |
| gene_hacker | that being said, I don't think the feynman path is practical | 22:35 |
| kanzure | p. sure that biology is going to be the solution for a long time | 22:36 |
| kanzure | as much as it sucks, it's what we've gots for molecular nanotech | 22:36 |
| xentrac | the sequential loading and unloading of clocked logic like buckling springs is just for reversibility; you can kind of discard it if you don't care | 22:37 |
| xentrac | I mean it's not really very different from clocking a register in everyday synchronous sequential logic design | 22:38 |
| xentrac | it's just that all your logic elements are now clocked | 22:38 |
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| gene_hacker | well the thing is synthetic chemistry is getting pretty amazing | 22:40 |
| xentrac | yeah | 22:40 |
| xentrac | I don't know much about chemistry | 22:42 |
| xentrac | I do think flexures are actually a reasonable approach to the feynman route to nanotech, but I suspect that route might peter out well before the atomic scale | 22:43 |
| xentrac | but that's okay! I just want self-replication | 22:44 |
| xentrac | if I can cut soda-lime glass with submicron precision and then surface-harden it with a molten potassium chloride bath or some shit like that, I'll be happy as a clam | 22:44 |
| xentrac | glass is appealing because it doesn't have grain boundaries to add spatial noise to your structure | 22:46 |
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| gene_hacker | There will always be noise | 22:47 |
| xentrac | yeah, but it doesn't have to manifest in the form of multi-micron surface asperities | 22:47 |
| gene_hacker | and how would using glass prevent that? | 22:48 |
| xentrac | ask the grating lab | 22:48 |
| gene_hacker | why do you need submicron precision? | 22:48 |
| xentrac | for submicron machinery | 22:48 |
| gene_hacker | so how do you assemble that? | 22:49 |
| xentrac | also for submicron data encoding | 22:49 |
| xentrac | with larger flexures | 22:49 |
| xentrac | I mean the grating lab uses screw threads | 22:49 |
| gene_hacker | for all intents and purposes no one does micron scale assembly | 22:49 |
| xentrac | nope | 22:50 |
| xentrac | they use screw threads but one of their ruling engines was actually physically built by Michelson | 22:50 |
| gene_hacker | ??? | 22:51 |
| xentrac | anyway, I have a long way to go and a lot to learn before I have to worry about those questions | 22:51 |
| xentrac | but even macroscopic flexures improve on sliding-contact machinery by orders of magnitude along several different axes: frequency, wear, backlash, efficiency | 22:52 |
| gene_hacker | I'll buy that | 22:53 |
| xentrac | and I think their relative advantages probably become bigger as you go to the microscale | 22:53 |
| gene_hacker | but assembly is hard at the microscale | 22:53 |
| gene_hacker | heck, assembly is hard at the macroscale if you aren't using humans | 22:53 |
| xentrac | what makes it hard? | 22:53 |
| xentrac | I mean in particular at the microscale | 22:53 |
| gene_hacker | manipulation | 22:53 |
| xentrac | you mean getting the needle into the right cell? | 22:54 |
| gene_hacker | picking up and moving stuff into the correct orientation | 22:58 |
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| xentrac | do you mean orienting a grabber in six degrees of freedom with submicron precision, or the stuff around surface adhesion and galling and things like that? | 23:01 |
| gene_hacker | both of those things | 23:02 |
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| xentrac | have you seen willard wigan's ted talk? | 23:05 |
| gene_hacker | no | 23:05 |
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| maaku | kanzure: I spent a long time (most of my youth) facinated with mechanical self-replication in space. Then I realized orbital dynamics for anywhere interesting (asteroid belt, outer solar system) means decades of travel time and technology is exponentially accelerating... | 23:11 |
| maaku | xentrac: huh, I hadn't thought about glass as a substrate for sub-micron scale mechanics. interesting | 23:14 |
| maaku | friction's got to be a bitch at that scale though | 23:14 |
| xentrac | flexures avoid having to deal with any friction; their losses are from viscoelasticity and hysteresis | 23:16 |
| xentrac | which I think are fairly minimal in common glasses, but even if that's true of macroscopic glasses, it might not be true of submicron glass "fibers" | 23:16 |
| xentrac | willard wigan does micron-precision shaping and assembly of sculptures with hand tools under a microscope | 23:17 |
| xentrac | I don't think he's done working machinery, although he's done models of motorcycles; the most recent one is encased inside one of his beard hairs which he bored a tube through | 23:18 |
| gene_hacker | humans are great at assembling stuff | 23:19 |
| gene_hacker | robots are not | 23:19 |
| gene_hacker | when they do, they need everything in exactly the right place | 23:19 |
| xentrac | maaku: I think Dawn reached Vesta in 2011 after being launched in 2007? | 23:20 |
| xentrac | it reached Ceres last year | 23:21 |
| xentrac | glasses kind of suck at having large elongation at break, which would be a very helpful feature for flexures | 23:23 |
| gene_hacker | I would say amorphous metal, but that probably has the same disadvantage | 23:24 |
| xentrac | yeah, maybe there is some glass that doesn't have that disadvantage. it should be pretty easy to get a sample of Metglas and break it | 23:25 |
| xentrac | I think one came with my jeans | 23:25 |
| gene_hacker | jeans with metal glass? | 23:26 |
| xentrac | yeah, this is one of the most bizarre things about the modern world | 23:26 |
| gene_hacker | link? | 23:26 |
| gene_hacker | kids these days with their bulk metallic glass jeans | 23:27 |
| xentrac | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_article_surveillance#Electro-magnetic_systems | 23:27 |
| gene_hacker | oh wow | 23:28 |
| gene_hacker | that's a new one | 23:28 |
| gene_hacker | or maybe not that new | 23:28 |
| xentrac | but bizarre, right? | 23:29 |
| gene_hacker | since they seem to have been replaced.... | 23:29 |
| xentrac | sometimes Argentina is behind the times | 23:29 |
| xentrac | I lost the tag though! | 23:29 |
| xentrac | it turns out Metglas is also being used as a core material in high-power-density generators and transformers nowadays | 23:30 |
| xentrac | beating out rare-earth-based materials | 23:30 |
| gene_hacker | well I'll tell you what is bizzare is that we don't use RFID, because criminals figured out they could put everything in a bag coating in tin foil and just walk out the door | 23:30 |
| xentrac | that sounds entirely unsurprising really | 23:31 |
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| --- Log closed Mon Aug 29 00:00:39 2016 | ||
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