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01:17 < nsh> recommended: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04sttd7
01:17 < nsh> (can get from iplayer later)
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02:43 < nsh> .t http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25674738
02:43 < yoleaux> nsh: Sorry, I don't know a timezone by that name.
02:43 < nsh> .title
02:43 < yoleaux> BBC News - Battery advance could boost renewable energy take-up
02:43 < nsh> .wik Quinones
02:43 < yoleaux> "A quinone is a class of organic compounds that are formally "derived from aromatic compounds [such as benzene or naphthalene] by conversion of an even number of –CH= groups into –C(=O)– groups with any necessary rearrangement of double bonds", resulting in "a fully conjugated cyclic dione structure". The class includes some heterocyclic compounds." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinones
02:43 < nsh> .wik Flow battery
02:43 < yoleaux> "A flow battery , or redox flow battery (after reduction–oxidation), is a type of rechargeable battery where rechargeability is provided by two chemical components dissolved in liquids contained within the system and separated by a membrane.Ion exchange (providing flow of electrical current) occurs through the membrane while both liquids …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery
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05:16 < kanzure> beep
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05:49 < kanzure> http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2014/11/zero-knowledge-proofs-illustrated-primer.html
05:51 < kanzure> https://grey.colorado.edu/emergent/index.php/Comparison_of_Neural_Network_Simulators
05:52 < kanzure> cc archels
05:53 < kanzure> svn checkout --username anonymous --password emergent https://grey.colorado.edu/svn/emergent/emergent/trunk emergent-trunk
05:54 < kanzure> https://grey.colorado.edu/emergent/index.php/Screenshots
05:56 < archels> neat, considerable updates since I last cached it
06:00 < kanzure> archels: also http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/
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07:46 < faceface_> any decent ebay type software?
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07:47 < kanzure> not really
07:55 < faceface> yeah...
07:56 < faceface> could be a nice 'module' for something like drupal
07:57 < faceface> Reported installs: 58 sites currently report using this module
07:57 < faceface> https://www.drupal.org/project/auction
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08:04 < kanzure> in general i highly recommend not using drupal
08:19 < faceface> indeed
08:19 < faceface> it's a horrible thing
08:19 < faceface> but the modules are a deep resource
08:20 < faceface> and for a muppet like me, it can be superficially convenient
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09:42 < nmz787_i> .title http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/Ethical_Issues_Regarding_Using_Invertebrates_in_Education
09:42 < yoleaux> Ethical Issues Regarding the Use of Invertebrates in Education - Backyard Brains
09:44 < kanzure> "Criticism: “You are objectifying the cockroach.""
09:44 < kanzure> "Criticism: This is pseudoscience. Electricity doesn't exist."
09:49 < nmz787_i> heh, I didn't see that last one
09:54 < kanzure> "Criticism: You can't prove virtual photons exist. There is only one electron and you are tormenting it."
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10:31 < chris_99> Anyone played around with lasers much
10:31 < chris_99> i'm just looking to get a beam splitter
10:31 < chris_99> to make a laser mic
10:31 < kanzure> chris_99: http://dmundoptics.com/
10:32 < kanzure> chris_99: http://edmundoptics.com/
10:32 < kanzure> or http://thorlabs.com/
10:32 < chris_99> merci, i was just looking @ http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Polarization-Beam-Splitter-Broadband-transparent-450nm-660nm/846524754.html
10:32 < kanzure> ask nmz787_i
10:33 < chris_99> aha will do when he's about, cheers
10:35 < chris_99> ah the edmund ones are like $180 alas
10:36 < nmz787_i> simon field sells a kit I believe, or if not, there are cheap kits out there for that
10:36 < chris_99> oh i presume i'd want a non-polarizing one, or does that not make a diff. if i'm using a laser?
10:37 < nmz787_i> a cheap (relative to optics prices) beam splitter is either a prism or a half-silvered mirror
10:37 < nmz787_i> err
10:37 < nmz787_i> maybe prism is not the right word
10:37 < chris_99> two prisms glued apparenlty
10:37 < chris_99> ?
10:38 < nmz787_i> http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/light/light.html#laser_communicator
10:38 < nmz787_i> yeah I think two prisms will do it too
10:39 < chris_99> yeah i want to do it with a beam splitter though, as then it'll catch the reflection at 0deg
10:39 < nmz787_i> I am not sure the difference in quality, but their effect on the beam (mirror vs dual-prism) will likely be different... though you probably don't care
10:40 < chris_99> mmm as long as it works heh
10:40 < nmz787_i> it would probably just mess with the shape a bit
10:40 < nmz787_i> or wavefront
10:40 < nmz787_i> but I don't think that will matter for audio
10:40 < nmz787_i> fiber optic splitters are just two pieces of fiber optic next to each other
10:41 < chris_99> you think that aliexpress one looks ok?
10:41 < nmz787_i> which would also likely be fine for you, though you'd probably need some lenses to pipe the laser into and out of the fiber
10:41 < nmz787_i> hmm, I am not sure about the polarization part
10:41 < chris_99> yeah
10:41 < chris_99> me too
10:42 < nmz787_i> ebay seems to have cheaper options
10:43 < nmz787_i> e.g. http://www.ebay.com/itm/ColorMaker-Glass-Cube-Prism-Cross-Dichroic-RGB-Combiner-Splitter-7-8-Cube/251627619901?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27538%26meid%3D04715074cca84306b0cb2869991b6210%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D11353%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D281512318721&rt=nc
10:43 < nmz787_i> or http://www.ebay.com/itm/Eye-of-Horus-Beam-Splitter-for-Khet-2-0-Laser-Game-/191040434353?pt=Games_US&hash=item2c7ae5b0b1
10:43 < chris_99> hmm doesn't that look like its composed of 4
10:43 < chris_99> prisms
10:43 < nmz787_i> or http://www.ebay.com/itm/50R-50T-Plate-Beamsplitter-32x32x1-1mm-1-Lot-of-5x/221619661926?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27538%26meid%3D04715074cca84306b0cb2869991b6210%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D11353%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D281512318721&rt=nc
10:43 < nmz787_i> 5 for $25
10:45 < nmz787_i> aliexpress version isn't much better http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Optical-Beamsplitter-Plate-Half-Reflecting-Mirror/1356879436.html
10:45 < chris_99> on the UK ebay theres none of those cheap ones :(
10:46 < nmz787_i> huh, how about amazon UK?
10:46 < nmz787_i> some targeted ad just sent me to an amazon search with keywords: Beam Splitter Cube
10:47 < nmz787_i> chris_99: is shipping much from US to UK for something like that, seems like it would be a small packet
10:47 < chris_99> yeah i could definitely do that
10:47 < chris_99> just found http://www.amazon.co.uk/Color-Combining-Dichroic-Splitter-Glass/dp/B00KK9HTIW/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1417459604&sr=8-15&keywords=beam+splitter
10:47 < nmz787_i> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Color-Combining-Dichroic-Splitter-Glass/dp/B00KK9HTIW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417459648&sr=8-1&keywords=Beam+Splitter+Cube
10:47 < chris_99> but doesn't it look like it's > 2 prisms
10:47 < nmz787_i> $6 pound or whatever
10:47 < chris_99> i'm not sure that'd work though because it's 4
10:48 < nmz787_i> hmm?
10:48 < chris_99> it's 4 prisms
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10:48 < chris_99> rather than 32
10:48 < chris_99> *2
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10:48 < nmz787_i> you'd just add some mirrors to the sides you didn't want to use
10:48 < nmz787_i> or some aluminum foil
10:48 < chris_99> oh you think with 4 it'd still reflect ok?
10:49 < chris_99> i'm thinking the other one would disrupt
10:49 < chris_99> the input signal
10:50 < nmz787_i> if it messed it up you could probably switch to black felt to absorb the beams you weren't using
10:50 < nmz787_i> i would search a little more for a cheaper 2-piece though first
10:51 < chris_99> mmm yeah ill keep looking
10:52 < nmz787_i> i see lots of results http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=beamsplitter+mirror&LH_PrefLoc=2&_arm=1&_armm=63&_ruu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3Dbeamsplitter%2Bmirror%26_arr%3D1
10:52 < nmz787_i> oh, wait, one is a US entry
10:53 < nmz787_i> weird the search list shows me different shipping cost than when I click the item
10:53 < chris_99> odd
10:54 < nmz787_i> you can get away with a CD or DVD jewel case (or the blank no-line disc that they put on top of the spindles)
10:55 < chris_99> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-lot-of-2x-50R-50T-Standard-Cube-Beamsplitter-10mm-/221622275891?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3399b78f33
10:55 < chris_99> £30 for 2
10:57 < nmz787_i> a TOSlink splitter might suffice for you, and you should be able to pick one up locally for about $5
10:57 < nmz787_i> so cheap and easy if it doesn't work
10:58 < chris_99> oh interesting
11:00 < nmz787_i> sorry I can't find a zoomed in version of this http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61j41m97TZL._SX522_.jpg
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11:00 < nmz787_i> but it's literally just two fibers on the backside, that are next to each other on the front/input
11:01 < chris_99> interesting
11:01 < chris_99> cool
11:02 < nmz787_i> but your beam divergence will likely be more than the half-millimeter or so that separate the two
11:02 < nmz787_i> so should be fine
11:02 < nmz787_i> may be fine*
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11:04 < chris_99> :)
11:04 < nmz787_i> the bigger problem would be if the divergence was enough that the watts/area is low, combined with the small fiber aperture, could lead to signal at the photodiode being too low
11:05 < nmz787_i> which is when you might need a lens to collect the return signal and focus it down better
11:05 < nmz787_i> so it depends primarily on your laser's initial divergence, and also the distance the beam needs to travel
11:06 < chris_99> yep that's true
11:13 < nmz787_i> and if you shoot onto a piece of glass (a window) unless the glass is pretty dirty, the beam is not going directly back to the splitter
11:14 < chris_99> true, so it'd need to be at a slight angle?
11:14 < nmz787_i> hard to say, I guess it would depend on the windo
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11:27 < nmz787_i> chris_99: did you ever do openCV on Android?
11:27 < nmz787_i> I managed to get it working for me over the weekend
11:27 < chris_99> i just did image processing in the end, not opencv
11:27 < kanzure> .title http://spectrum.ieee.org/geek-life/hands-on/diy-exoplanet-detector
11:27 < yoleaux> DIY Exoplanet Detector - IEEE Spectrum
11:27 < chris_99> ah cool
11:27 < nmz787_i> now I need to investigate GUI layout in Android a bit
11:27 < chris_99> cool, what are you making?
11:27 < kanzure> cc superkuh
11:28 < nmz787_i> chris_99: I've had a few ideas for a while, one would be a live/dead detector for a hemocytometer image (or any image of different colored blobs)
11:28 < chris_99> cool
11:28 < nmz787_i> another was the FIB/CNC related stuff I have been working on
11:29 < nmz787_i> but I realized that since I'm using a USB video capture device, I would need an Android driver for it, which I have no idea how loading kernel modules work in Android
11:29 < chris_99> ah hmm
11:29 < chris_99> me neither
11:29 < chris_99> i noticed the mass spectrometer i was looking at has come down to £850, when it hits £100 i'll buy it ;)
11:29 < nmz787_i> oh?
11:29 < nmz787_i> which is that?
11:29 < chris_99> sec
11:30 < chris_99> it might not even work though
11:30 < nmz787_i> that sounds ridiculously cheap
11:30 < nmz787_i> (does it come with pumps?)
11:30 < chris_99> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281506750396?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
11:30 < kanzure> title
11:30 < kanzure> .title
11:30 < yoleaux> Mass Spectrometer Waters Micromass Tof Spec 2E | eBay
11:32 < kanzure> podcast, nick bostrom, superintelligence (from today) http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2014/12/nick_bostrom_on.html
11:33 < kanzure> .title
11:33 < yoleaux> Nick Bostrom on Superintelligence | EconTalk | Library of Economics and Liberty
11:33 < nmz787_i> http://www.umich.edu/~techserv/massspec/tof.pdf
11:33 < kanzure> "reduce the risk"
11:33 < kanzure> you can't reduce the risk of something inherently deadly.... i can't believe these people are so dishonest.
11:33 < nmz787_i> hmm, if it was local I would be interested in it...
11:34 < heath> who's going to be receiving an opentrons?
11:34 < chris_99> do you think it's got everything
11:34 < kanzure> (they should explicitly say that they are talking about "reducing the number of people working on these projects and opportunities for them to engage in this work")
11:34 < heath> i couldn't afford it this go around, but it is on github, so it shouldn't be too difficiult to replicate
11:35 < kanzure> (and "reducing the likelihood of these projects to exist or happen at all, at least within the bounds that we can set, and we are totally not promising that we can reduce the riskyness of impossible-to-fix risky things")
11:37 < nmz787_i> chris_99: can't tell, it would help if the manuals are there... looks like folks on ebay selling them alone for as much price http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micromass-TOF-SPEC-2E-Mass-Spectrometer-Manuals-and-Booklets-/271136831153
11:37 < chris_99> ooh cheers
11:38 < chris_99> oh what a rip heh
11:38 < nmz787_i> likely stuff is missing, but it appears that the bulk of it may be there... hard to tell though with my relatively untrained eye
11:39 < chris_99> mmm
11:39 < nmz787_i> it says "This is a used machine - has been removed from a working environment as a working machine looks to be complete, see pictures."
11:39 < nmz787_i> "we have no manuals - these are available from the manufacturer or online." HAH
11:40 < nmz787_i> these manufacturers seem very unlikely to provide such manual
11:40 < nmz787_i> I think for fear of competitors reverse-engineering
11:40 < chris_99> heh
11:40 < chris_99> yeah
11:40 < nmz787_i> "lots of valuable power supplies, components etc - IF USED FOR SPARES - some of these HV power supplies etc sell on here for £500 + so it could be a valuable source of spares for those who work in this field."
11:40 < nmz787_i> the real kicker would be if it had the vacuum pumps with it
11:43 < chris_99> ah are they v. expensive
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11:45 < nmz787_i> yeah
11:46 < nmz787_i> at least $1000 used, if not like $3000
11:46 < nmz787_i> there may be chinese brands I don't know of
11:48 < chris_99> would that be a turbomolecular vac pump?
11:51 * bkero usually repurposes automotive vacuum pumps
11:51 < bkero> Wenkel engines require vacuum lines all over the place to operate, and the maintenance of the community is enough to actually have a competitive market for vacuum pumps.
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11:54 < kragen> .wik Wenkel engine
11:54 < yoleaux> "The Wankel engine is a type of internal combustion engine using an eccentric rotary design to convert pressure into rotating motion. Over the commonly used reciprocating piston designs, the Wankel engine delivers advantages of: simplicity, smoothness, compactness, high revolutions per minute, and a high power-to-weight ratio." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine
11:55 < chris_99> what does an engine use a vacuum pump for?
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11:58 < nmz787_i> most engines use vacuum though
11:59 < nmz787_i> chris_99: for powering things, for sensing things (using ambient pressure relative to manifold vacuum/pressure to determine mass air flow)
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12:02 < chris_99> aha
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12:09 < kanzure> i wish i would have found this years ago:
12:09 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Monkey%20to%20human%20comparative%20anatomy%20of%20the%20frontal%20lobe%20association%20tracts.pdf
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12:14 < kragen> chris_99: the reason the throttle is called that is that the actual throttle valve itself limits the airflow into the engine intake
12:15 < kragen> you might have thought that it controlled the fuel flow
12:15 < kragen> but actually what happens is that the fuel flow is regulated to correspond to the airflow, and you directly control the airflow
12:15 < chris_99> mm i had no idea it controlled air flow
12:16 < kragen> think of being throttled by an angry soldier
12:16 < kragen> he's limiting your airflow
12:16 < chris_99> heh
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12:52 < kanzure> "major differences were found for the arcuate fasciculus and the inferior fronto-occipital fasciculus, which may underlie unique human cognitive functions"
12:53 < kanzure> "inferior fronto-occipital fasciculus (IFOF)"
12:54 < kanzure> "Anatomic dissection of the inferior fronto-occipital fasciculus revisited in the lights of brain stimulation data" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010945209002512
12:54 < kanzure> "Here, in the lights of these new functional data, we dissected 14 post-mortem human hemispheres using the Klingler fiber dissection technique, to study the IFOF fibers and to identify their actual cortical terminations in the parietal, occipital and temporal lobes. We identified two different components of the IFOF: (i) a superficial and dorsal subcomponent, which connects the frontal lobe with the superior parietal lobe and the ...
12:54 < kanzure> ... posterior portion of the superior and middle occipital gyri, (ii) a deep and ventral subcomponent, which connects the frontal lobe with the posterior portion of the inferior occipital gyrus and the posterior temporo-basal area. Thus, our results are in line with the hypothesis of the functional role of the IFOF in the semantic system, by showing that it is mainly connected with two areas involved in semantics: the occipital ...
12:54 < kanzure> ... associative extrastriate cortex and the temporo-basal region. Further combined anatomical (dissection and Diffusion Tensor Imaging) and functional (intraoperative subcortical stimulation) studies are needed, to clarify the exact participation of each IFOF subcomponent in semantic processing."
12:56 < nmz787_i> kragen: except in the case of direct injection
12:56 < nmz787_i> where the 'throttle' is just connected to a sensor
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13:04 < kanzure> "Normal variation in fronto-occipital circuitry and cerebellar structure with an autism-associated polymorphism of CNTNAP2" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2941042/
13:04 < kanzure> "We compared volumetric differences in white and grey matter and fractional anisotropy values in control subjects characterised by genotype at rs7794745, a single nucleotide polymorphism in CNTNAP2. Homozygotes for the risk allele showed significant reductions in grey and white matter volume and fractional anisotropy in several regions that have already been implicated in ASD, including the cerebellum, fusiform gyrus, occipital and ...
13:04 < kanzure> ... frontal cortices. Male homozygotes for the risk alleles showed greater reductions in grey matter in the right frontal pole and in FA in the right rostral fronto-occipital fasciculus compared to their female counterparts who showed greater reductions in FA of the anterior thalamic radiation. Thus a risk allele for autism results in significant cerebral morphological variation, despite the absence of overt symptoms or behavioural ...
13:04 < kanzure> ... abnormalities. The results are consistent with accumulating evidence of CNTNAP2's function in neuronal development. The finding suggests the possibility that the heterogeneous manifestations of ASD can be aetiologically characterised into distinct subtypes through genetic-morphological analysis."
13:06 < kanzure> well, only slightly related
13:07 < kanzure> although a single allele causing significant variations in grey matter vlume is neat
13:07 < kanzure> *volume
13:09 < kragen> nmz787_i: I don't know much about direct injection engines but I know direct injection engines with throttle valves do exist
13:09 < kragen> I'm sure pure drive-by-wire ones also exist
13:10 < kragen> you seem to be saying that the second are vastly more common than the first. you could be right
13:10 < kragen> I've only worked on very old engines!
13:11 < kragen> (reading, it looks like you are right)
13:13 < nmz787_i> well more common since maybe 10 years ago
13:14 < nmz787_i> another thing to consider for non-direct-injection is that lower pressure will aide fuel atomization/vaporization to some degree, however minor that may be
--- Log closed Mon Dec 01 13:24:10 2014
--- Log opened Mon Dec 01 13:24:21 2014
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13:35 < chris_99> http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26644-hypnotising-patterns-created-in-electric-soap-films.html#.VHze6IWeeBs
13:35 < chris_99> isn't this electrowetting?
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14:07 < archels> ,--8<-
14:07 < archels> |No part of this manual may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form or by any means, electronic,
14:07 < archels> |mechanical, photocopying, microfilming, recording, or otherwise, without written permission from Soterix Medical Inc.
14:07 < archels> `-->8-
14:07 < archels> microfilming, lol
14:07 < archels> also what is this ungodly paste script doing to my pastes
14:08 < kragen> it is putting ASCII art of scissors around them
14:08 < kragen> microfilm still seems to me to be the most reasonable existing way to do long-time text archival
14:08 < kragen> I mean of course we could lose it all in a foom next week
14:09 < kragen> and of course we could have a more gradual smooth transition to a stable posthuman existence
14:10 < kragen> but it seems entirely plausible that we will continue to experience occasional civilizational collapses instead of either of those
14:10 < kragen> hard disks will not survive a civilizational collapse in a useful way
14:13 < kragen> microfilm is stable for millennia, is cheap to produce, can be read without advanced machinery, and is vastly denser than any other medium with those properties
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14:35 < nmz787_i> kragen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-Rosetta
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14:37 < kragen> nmz787_i: yeah, that's what inspired me to start thinking about this problem someten years or so ago
14:38 < kragen> the thing is that the cost is about US$0.025 per page, and you need a scanning electron microscope to read it
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14:41 < kragen> by contrast, you can print on PET film or acid-free paper with a regular laser printer at 600dpi at 16:1 reduction, which you can read with a magnifying glass, for about US$0.0004 per page
14:41 < kragen> about 64 times cheaper
14:41 < kragen> and it still lasts 1000 years with no trouble
14:43 < kragen> if you have a 1200dpi printer you get another factor of 4 boost
14:43 < kragen> I think I can get to 25 pages per sheet of PET film without needing even a magnifying glass by printing on both sides
14:44 < nmz787_i> kragen: you don't actually need an SEM if your feature size is sufficiently large
14:45 < nmz787_i> I've seen their demos using simple phase contrast microscopy
14:46 < kragen> yeah, you can make the features big enough to see with optical microscopy for another factor of 2 increase in price per page, IIRC
14:46 < kragen> what would be really good at getting the cost down would be casting
14:47 < kragen> I mean, if you want Lots Of Copies to Keep Stuff Safe
14:47 < archels> hmm, is feature size inversely correlated with projected archival time?
14:47 < kragen> no
14:47 < nmz787_i> FIB time is $375/hr, data density depends on FIB spot size, so you can probably calculate cost per data using an implant dose table
14:47 < kragen> there is a relationship but it is not a simple inverse
14:47 < nmz787_i> and yeah the outcome is a mold
14:48 < nmz787_i> which you can them stamp into hot plastic or injection mold onto
14:48 < archels> HD-Rosetta disadvantages include:
14:48 < archels> Size: HD-Rosetta can easily be lost.
14:48 < kragen> nmz787_i: I was using US$5000 per disc as my cost estimate
14:48 < archels> lol.
14:48 < nmz787_i> there is the electroforming process which would be on top of the FIB beam time
14:49 < nmz787_i> and also any design time that you'd need to spend talking to an engineer about feasibility of data density for what your retrieval method will be, etc.
14:50 < nmz787_i> kragen: while an initial disc may be $5k, it would be able to stamp many copies of itself, so total cost per item would be lower
14:50 < nmz787_i> I am not sure what the out-the-door cost generally is
14:51 < archels> http://thespiritscience.net/2014/02/13/data-storage-crystal-quartz-will-change-everything/
14:51 < kragen> yes, in theory you could make many copies of an HD-Rosetta disc in hot plastic
14:51 < kragen> I don't think you can actually do injection molding because you will destroy the delicate features you're trying to mold
14:51 < archels> looks like this just needs to be taken out of the lab--I'm sure that many similar projects exist around the globe
14:52 < nmz787_i> kragen: I know how they do it, the company is 5 mins from my house
14:52 < nmz787_i> and yeah they do have a small hand-pressed injection molder
14:52 < kragen> nmz787_i: awesome! I didn't know anyone was actually doing this
14:52 < kragen> what are their mold lifetimes like?
14:52 < archels> these can be distributed incredibly easily, to other planets of the solar system or shot into deep space
14:52 < kragen> presumably they're not molding in PET, right?
14:52 < nmz787_i> (though I will admit I can't remember if they used the injector for making replicas, or if that was for some other project they had)
14:52 < archels> carrying something like the entire of library genesis
14:53 < kragen> most plastics are not very stable
14:53 < archels> compared to microfilm, those are completely laughable
14:53 < archels> I don't see it as such a big problem that you need an advanced device to read them out
14:53 < nmz787_i> not sure what plastic, but after the fact they are coating in gold
14:53 < nmz787_i> after the impression*
14:54 < nmz787_i> so the mold itself is nickel and will last a long time
14:54 < kragen> so they're doing this to create many perlong-term stable copies
14:54 < nmz787_i> but the plastic impressions would be less hardy, sure
14:54 < kragen> not necessarily
14:54 < kragen> well
14:54 < kragen> nickel can survive a very long time indeed
14:54 < kragen> geological or cosmological timespans
14:55 < kragen> in a reducing environment
14:55 < archels> as can crystals ^
14:55 < archels> what's the smallest feature size that you can create with that FIB beam?
14:56 < kragen> *other crystals
14:56 < nmz787_i> archels: most stuff is some size crystal :P
14:56 < nmz787_i> a metal form would be crystalline too
14:56 < nmz787_i> how nice it was, that's a question
14:56 < kragen> archels: that blog post is continued in http://thespiritscience.net/2014/02/15/legend-crystal-skulls/
14:56 < archels> solid nickel is not something I would normally refer to as a crystal, but quite possibly I don't know what I'm talking about
14:56 < kragen> nickel is normally crystalline
14:56 < nmz787_i> it certainly has crystal grain boundaries/interfaces
14:57 < nmz787_i> "You’ve heard the tales. The legend of the Crystal Skull is the tale of our Ancient Ancestors using Crystal Technology to store memories, understandings, and even pure Consciousness itself, in a Pure Quartz Crystal Skull. Every thousand years, for the past 13 thousand years, there have been stories that a new Crystal Skull was created by the indigenous descendants of the Atlanteans."
14:57 < nmz787_i> I had not heard that tale.
14:57 < kragen> you can probably get it to be amorphous but I don't think anyone ever has
14:58 < nmz787_i> archels: smallest beam size is about 10nm
14:58 < kragen> I think glass is actually preferable if you're going for recording density
14:58 < kragen> yeah, I hadn't heard that tale either
14:58 < kragen> apparently someone prepared amorphous nickel for the first time in 1973
14:58 < archels> nmz787_i: alright, that's pretty good
14:59 < archels> still, it's fundamentally 2D
14:59 < archels> etching an optically transparent crystal can occur fully in 3D
14:59 < nmz787_i> until they etch the implanted area, then it becomes 3d
15:00 < nmz787_i> archels what do you mean by your last comment?
15:00 < nmz787_i> 'etching fully in 3D'?
15:01 < kragen> you can use laser glass fracture or the equivalent to record data at many depths
15:01 < nmz787_i> oh, I see, you mean encoding stuff in the middle, not just on the surface
15:02 < kanzure> what were those halide silver gel matrices with rhodopsin proteins
15:02 < kragen> yeah, that's what the earlier spiritscience article was talking about
15:02 < kanzure> they probably weren't halide silver
15:02 < kanzure> nevermind, glass is better
15:03 < kragen> so that process is already commercialized at macroscopic resolutions: http://www.bathsheba.com/crystal/
15:05 < kragen> process details at http://www.bathsheba.com/crystal/process/
15:05 < kragen> however those fractures are 100μm long
15:05 < kragen> "None of this is cutting edge: it's been mature as long as I've been using it, which is since 2002"
15:07 < kanzure> doesn't "cutting edge" mean "there is no more edge" not "immature"?
15:07 < kragen> 1cm³ at 200μm resolution is only 125 bits though
15:09 < nmz787_i> hmm, FIB and electron beams cause damage (i.e. fracturing)
15:09 < nmz787_i> or they can cause damage
15:10 < archels> .wa (1e-2/200e-6)**3
15:10 < yoleaux> ((1×10⁽⁻²⁾)/(200×10⁽⁻⁶⁾))³: 125000; Number name: 125 thousand; Number line: http://is.gd/Hvh0h9; Number length: 6 decimal digits
15:10 < nmz787_i> I don't know if there's an equivalent for two-photon (two-particle) though
15:11 < archels> so you'd need 8 million 1 cm³ cubes to store 1 TB at that resolution
15:11 < archels> smaller feature size scales with the third power now though
15:12 < kragen> uh, pardon my total lack of consciousness, apparently. thanks archels.
15:12 < kragen> still, that's the same as three sheets of paper at 1cm² at 600dpi
15:13 < archels> 1 micron bits -> 1 TB in one cube
15:13 < kragen> yeah
15:15 < archels> ah wait, you want to store binary data on paper by just printing dot/no dot?
15:53 < kanzure> "Transcranial magnetic stimulation over human secondary somatosensory cortex disrupts perception of pain intensity" surprise?
15:55 < fenn> mumble mumble two-photon or holographic recording medium
15:56 < fenn> it's always a couple years behind magnetic media, so we never see consumer products
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16:00 < kanzure> fenn: here are some hypnosis papers for you (i swear i wasn't looking for these... i'm just going through the monthly volumes) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/00109452/49/2
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16:20 < fenn> “Specifically, as the human moves her arm, the wireless reflections from her arm either constructively or destructively interfere with the direct signal from the Wi-Fi transmitter. This results in peaks and troughs in the amplitude of the received signals”
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16:20 < RedMEdic> Hey
16:20 < RedMEdic> Anyone online?
16:20 < fenn> nobody here but us transhumanists
16:21 < fenn> oh, i know who you are
16:22 < kragen> archels: whatever kind of data you store with a laser printer is reduced to binary data on paper
16:22 < kanzure> hmm wifi interface using human limbs sounds like the start to an interesting prank on someone
16:23 < kanzure> *interference
16:23 < kragen> I designed a 6×3½ pixel font that is moderately readable — 21 pixels per letter, on average
16:23 * nmz787_i just started thinking of a human antenna 'no little brother, you need to stand on your head or the internet cartoon won't stream fast enough'
16:23 < kragen> which is about what QR codes get, really
16:24 < kanzure> qr codes get terrible wifi reception, yeah
16:24 < fenn> "The algorithm they created in their research classifies gestures according to the size and timing of the peaks. The technique works at distances of “up to one [foot]” and claims a 91 per cent accuracy."
16:24 < kragen> oh hush
16:24 < fenn> 91 percent is not great but presumably it could learn and improve with time
16:24 < RedMEdic> Im a noob and I was wondering what the best textbook/sources on genetic engineering are
16:24 < kragen> how many gestures?
16:24 < fenn> i didnt read the paper
16:24 < kragen> archels: although QR codes are probably more resistant to failure
16:24 < kanzure> RedMEdic: sambrook's lab manual is pretty okay
16:25 < fenn> .title http://arxiv.org/abs/1411.5394
16:25 < yoleaux> [1411.5394] Wi-Fi Gesture Recognition on Existing Devices
16:25 < kragen> 91% accuracy on distinguishing two gestures is less impressive than if it's 16
16:25 < fenn> "four gestures" :(
16:25 < kragen> four
16:25 < fenn> i guess it's only using one dimension
16:25 < kragen> yeah
16:26 < fenn> 802.11n would have higher dimensionality
16:26 < kragen> my mom has higher dimensionality
16:26 < fenn> does she smoke DMT
16:26 < fenn> don't feel pressured to answer
16:26 < kragen> no, she makes it herself
16:26 < kragen> in her very own personal brain
16:26 < RedMEdic> kanzure: thanks Ill check it out
16:28 < kanzure> "Comparative analyses of evolutionary rates reveal different pathways to encephalization in bats, carnivorans, and primates"
16:29 < kanzure> google scholar has a link to http://lib.gen.in/2ebbdfdf98191987b762ac50181cd4b3.pdf for this paper but it 404s
16:29 < kanzure> i suspect that lib.gen.in is libgen
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16:30 < fenn> that book is pretty expensive
16:31 < fenn> $150 used $250 new
16:31 < kanzure> "Results demonstrate that a principal focus on interpreting relative brain size evolution as selection on neuronal capacity confounds the effects of body mass changes, thereby hiding important aspects that may contribute to explaining animal diversity."
16:31 < kanzure> did this really need a paper?
16:32 < kanzure> "However, comparative neurological studies demonstrate that the human brain does not contain any structures that are distinctly unique to humans. Rather, the brain has undergone expansion of pre-existing structures that have re-wired their connectivity (Mantini and Corbetta, 2013; Smaers and Soligo, 2013), leading to the creation of novel network architectures in the brain. Given this morphological conservatism, the distinctive features ...
16:32 < kanzure> ... of the human brain are likely to involve the elaboration of pre-existing functions to facilitate increased behavioral complexity."
16:32 < kanzure> ( from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4010745/ )
16:34 < fenn> maniatis was the bio lab manual/protocol cookbook i had
16:35 < fenn> it was pretty dry
16:36 < fenn> hehe "genetics for dummies"
16:38 < kanzure> hmm this paper argues that human cognition is particularly unique because learned tasks can be dumped into memory, allowing "executive function" to process other details not related to task execution
16:38 < kanzure> they should have called this the drooling moron hypothesis
16:39 < kanzure> a first order dismissal could be something like "monkeys have memory too, you know"
16:39 < ebowden> Where on earth was this paper published?
16:40 < kanzure> Front Neurosci. 2014; 8: 90.
16:41 < ebowden> Are there any published criticisms of it?
16:41 < kanzure> "Plausibly, then, the adoption of bipedalism in proto-humans posed a strong selective advantage for individuals with brains capable of using their full processing power to learn bipedalism, but that were also able to delegate the basic tasks of walking and running to “lower” neural centers, freeing up the higher segments for detecting unpredictable opportunities and challenges (be they related to predators, food, or social cues), and ...
16:41 < kanzure> ... rapidly responding to that information."
16:42 < ebowden> ...
16:42 < fenn> well do you see any other bipedal organisms walking around
16:42 < kanzure> meerkats?
16:43 < fenn> walking being the operative word
16:43 < ebowden> Birds?
16:43 < kanzure> they sort of hop
16:43 < fenn> birds is ok, and there's some interesting things about their brains
16:45 < fenn> seth robertson used some kind of balancing test as a cognitive metric
16:46 < kanzure> i don't remember being graded but i may have failed my eurythmy classes
16:48 < fenn> you probably failed gymnastics too
16:49 < kanzure> that school didn't have gymnastics
16:49 < kanzure> but we had hikes through the forest at least once a week
16:50 < fenn> i guess humans got big brains and ostriches didn't because we had an aquatic/fishy diet with lots of omega-3 fats
16:50 < kanzure> although it may have been in a circle and i just never noticed
16:50 < fenn> flamingos though..
16:50 < kanzure> "Despite their connectivity with each other, the cerebral cortex and cerebellum are organized into quite different motifs of internal connectivity (Ito, 2006). For example, the cerebral cortex is a thin, multi-layered sheet with massive inter-connectivity across layers and regions (George and Hawkins, 2009), whereas the cerebellum consists of a network of simple cellular motifs, robustly repeated across the entire structure (Ramnani, ...
16:50 < kanzure> ... 2006; D'Angelo and Casali, 2012). The structure of these motifs accords well with the notion that the cerebral cortex is primarily engaged early in unsupervised learning (when it is advantageous to respond flexibly to a novel stimulus) (Doya, 2000), yet decreases its activity over the course of learning, which may be due to increased neuronal efficiency (Ashby et al., 2007). In addition, it is also now clear that the cerebellum is ...
16:50 < kanzure> ... important for the execution of automatized behaviors (Lang and Bastian, 2002; Balsters and Ramnani, 2011)."
16:51 < kanzure> "Given the efficient neuronal architecture of the cerebellar cortex, we propose that the cerebellum plays a prominent role in the execution of learned behaviors, effectively liberating the more flexible architecture of the cortex to process novel behavioral challenges (Figure (Figure1).1). Importantly, this mechanism can be mapped onto a functional corticocerebellar unit of the brain (Figure (Figure1)1) which, depending on which ...
16:51 < kanzure> ... neural and cerebellar regions are involved in the learning process, can effectively allow learning and automatization of motor, as well as cognitive and affective behavioral patterns (Graybiel, 1997, 2008; Hertel and Brozovich, 2010)."
16:52 < fenn> my eyes!
16:52 < fenn> are they citing jef hawkins?
16:53 < kanzure> seems like it: George D., Hawkins J. (2009). Towards a mathematical theory of cortical micro-circuits. PLoS Comput. Biol. 5:e1000532 10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000532
16:54 < kanzure> so their argument is that "monkeys don't walk" is an explanation for the other differences between monkey and human brain function?
16:55 < fenn> er, but don't monkeys also have cerebella?
16:55 < kanzure> s/don't/can't (for some definition of can't that allows for monkeys to attempt to walk for a while)
16:56 < kanzure> right... so something like "their are minor parameter differences between human and monkey brains that allow for better 'automatizing' that accounts for the major differences in brain function"? meh
16:57 < fenn> i think this explains the difference much better: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of_neurons#Cerebral_cortex
16:57 < kanzure> if there is simply lower bandwidth for this 'automatizing' mechanism then it should turn out that monkeys just learn and 'automatize' dramatically more slowly such that learning anything becomes impractical
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16:58 < fenn> a minor genotype parameter difference results in a huge quantitative phenotype difference
16:58 < kanzure> if there is almost /no/ bandwidth for such 'automatizing' then i wouldn't know how to explain monkey brain similarities to human
16:58 < kanzure> yeah but then why wouldn't that genotype parameter have already been selected for in monkeys
16:58 < fenn> because monkeys live in trees and don't eat fish
16:59 < fenn> they can't afford it, essentially
16:59 < ebowden> Damn do humans have a lot of cerebral cortex.
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17:03 < fenn> why aren't hippopotamuses all super-geniuses?
17:03 < fenn> brain to body-mass ratio 1:2789
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17:05 < fenn> vs human 1:40
17:07 < ebowden> I wonder how many neurons they have in their cerebral cortexes.
17:07 < chris_99> heh, maybe they are super-geniuses, and they're too busy contemplating the meaning of life, the universe and everything, for us to notice
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17:07 < ebowden> LOL
17:07 < fenn> no they are just big angry mice
17:08 < fenn> "ungulates" whatever that is
17:08 < kanzure> "On a genetic level, we expect that changes in delegation ability should be mirrored by disproportionate alterations in both coding and non-coding genetic activity in the brain (Mattick and Mehler, 2008), particularly in the cortical, cerebellar and basal ganglia circuitry that is likely to be important for the delegation of behavior to automaticity (Figure (Figure1).1). Although studies on the genetic basis of human behavior are in ...
17:08 < kanzure> ... their infancy, early results on the neural distribution of non-coding regions in the genome support this general notion (Mattick and Mehler, 2008)."
17:10 < ebowden> Fenn, how many neurons do hippopotamus have in their cerebral cortexes?
17:12 < fenn> did you mean: hippocampus?
17:12 < fenn> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24474726
17:13 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1002%2Far.22875
17:13 < kanzure> .title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24474726
17:13 < yoleaux> The cerebral cortex of the pygmy hippopotamus, Hexaprotodon liberie... - PubMed - NCBI
17:13 < fenn> Hexaprotodon liberiensis
17:14 < fenn> nevermind
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17:14 < fenn> interesting "H. liberiensis shares one feature exclusively with cetaceans (the lack of layer IV across the entire cerebral cortex)"
17:15 < fenn> i didn't know this about whales
17:15 < kanzure> if it really is just number of monkey neurons then let's give them a particular allele
17:15 < chris_99> i bet a pygmy hippo would make a bad ass guard 'dog'
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17:18 < kanzure> you would need a moat
17:19 < fenn> ebowden: sorry dude, no access
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17:19 < kanzure> why is it more likely that it is number of neurons and not some particular cognitive control related circuits
17:20 < fenn> because we only know of biological circuits made from neurons
17:21 < fenn> genetic circuits don't scale well
17:21 < kanzure> also, surely someone has published a paper elaborating an idea like "the number of neurons in the human brain is directly responsile for human brain abilities"
17:21 < kanzure> huh?
17:21 < fenn> i would hope so
17:21 < kanzure> i mean why are you quicker to prescribe number of neurons to unique human abilities rather than neural circuits
17:22 < fenn> i have no idea what a neural circuit is actually
17:22 < fenn> is that a thing?
17:22 < kanzure> there are these loops in the brain between "regions" and "clusters"
17:22 < kanzure> visually distinguished by long-range projection neurons
17:23 < fenn> are "regions" connected by long range projections also?
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17:24 < kanzure> "regions" and "clusters" are probably the same thing :|
17:24 < kanzure> see page 3 figure 3 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Towards%20an%20executive%20without%20a%20homunculus:%20computational%20models%20of%20the%20prefrontal%20cortex%20basal%20ganglia%20system.pdf
17:26 < fenn> heh "go vs nogo" is a big simplistic
17:26 < kanzure> terrible name
17:26 < fenn> all the agony and ecstasy of experience
17:27 < fenn> um, so that diagram is "regions"?
17:27 < kanzure> hmm i should find a good generic overview of wtf neural circuits are
17:28 < fenn> because that diagram contains lots of different cell types
17:28 < kanzure> so.. "regions" usually refer to this pile of junk: http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/brain/brainps.jpg
17:29 < fenn> that "pile of junk" is bad because it slices up the cortex into parts but leaves other regions whole, as if they're equivalent
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17:30 < kanzure> to complicate things even further for you, people have done fMRI studies of humans blowing snot bubbles to identify "functional regions" implicated in different actions or behaviors:
17:30 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Functional%20specialization%20and%20flexibility%20in%20human%20association%20cortex%20-%202014.pdf
17:31 < fenn> so what you're saying is nobody can agree on what the term "regions" means
17:31 < kanzure> (see figures on page 6, 7, 9)
17:31 < kanzure> i think there is broad consensus that regions refers to the historical neuroanatomy names like you would find in grey's anatomy
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17:31 < kanzure> gray's anatomy
17:32 < fenn> that circos diagram is impossible to draw any conclusions from
17:33 < fenn> wait, "go/nogo" is a task?
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17:33 < kanzure> yeah it's not what you think heh
17:34 < kanzure> terrible name like i said
17:34 < fenn> why does it say D1 and D2 then
17:34 < kanzure> a better alternative to the last link is possibly http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/The%20evolution%20of%20distributed%20association%20networks%20in%20the%20human%20brain.pdf
17:34 < kanzure> d1/d2 is dopamine receptor naming
17:35 < fenn> yes i know that much, but, uh, this fMRI uses "Go/NoGo" as a cognitive task
17:35 < kanzure> in this last link, here is a definition of "macrocircuit": "Canonical circuit (canonical macrocircuit): a network of brain areas characterized by dense local connectivity between areas and a serial, hierarchical flow of information across areas. Such networks link incoming sensory information to the development of a motor response or action."
17:36 < fenn> i am suddenly reminded of the futility of ontologies in biology
17:36 < kanzure> right, they should get rid of ontologies about brain regions
17:37 < kanzure> oh they cite this thing which looks useful, "Imaging human connectomes at the macroscale"
17:37 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v10/n6/abs/nmeth.2482.html
17:37 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnmeth.2482
17:37 < fenn> it's probably just tensor diffusion imaging
17:37 < fenn> .title
17:37 < fenn> .title http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v10/n6/abs/nmeth.2482.html
17:37 < yoleaux> Imaging human connectomes at the macroscale : Nature Methods : Nature Publishing Group
17:37 < fenn> no yoleaux i want you to summarize the paper for me
17:37 < yoleaux> fenn: Sorry, that command (.title) took too long to process.
17:38 < kanzure> here: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Imaging%20human%20connectomes%20at%20the%20macroscale.pdf
17:38 < fenn> no kanzure i want you to summarize the paper for me
17:39 < kanzure> page 10 figure 3
17:39 < kanzure> hmm there's no list of circuits in this paper.
17:39 < fenn> you know i am going to have to sort all this crap
17:39 < kanzure> no we're still trying to find you a good definition of neural circuit
17:39 < kanzure> and then you can answer my question
17:40 < kanzure> so most of this can be thrown out once an adequate definition or diagram or something is found
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17:41 < fenn> looks pretty messy
17:42 < RedMEdic> http://higheredbcs.wiley.com/legacy/college/tortora/0470565101/hearthis_ill/pap13e_ch12_illustr_audio_mp3_am/simulations/figures/neural_circuits.jpg
17:42 < RedMEdic> like this?
17:42 < kanzure> "Direct evidence for neuronal connections in human brain tissue is very rare and difficult to obtain, so there is high value in any existing reports of neuroanatomical studies conducted in post-mortem human brain tissue."
17:42 < kanzure> http://mitraweb1.cshl.edu:8080/BrainArchitecture/pages/publications.faces
17:42 < kanzure> wtf?
17:42 < kanzure> RedMEdic: that's actually too low-level
17:42 < kanzure> that looks like a microcircuit
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17:44 < kanzure> "basal ganglia macrocircuits" http://garcia.rutgers.edu/Reprints.pdfs/Tepper_Chapter1.preprint.pdf
17:44 < kanzure> page 2 figure 1
17:44 < kanzure> although it's not an overview or general review of macrocircuits or neural circuits... hrm.
17:45 < fenn> kanzure: i think no matter what you're going to have to apply a fuzzy statistical definition that is unsatisfying
17:45 < fenn> like what is "a rich person" there's no real clear boundary
17:45 < kanzure> there are specific tracts of brain matter that require only visual inspection to identify (well, and knowledge of wtf everyone else called that particular projection)
17:48 < kanzure> okay here you go:
17:48 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Parallel%20organization%20of%20functionally%20segregated%20circuits%20linking%20basal%20ganglia%20and%20cortex.pdf
17:49 < fenn> i meant to steal this book or at least read it http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/networks-brain
17:50 < fenn> mostly because the author ran my robotics group in college
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17:50 < fenn> "faculty sponsor"
17:51 < kanzure> superkuh: do you have any good ways to explain macrocircuits in human brains?
17:51 < kanzure> archels: or you?
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17:51 < fenn> kanzure: this sounds like the sort of lie they tell students in order to have an easy to explain metaphor
17:52 < fenn> like s and p orbitals in chemistry
17:52 < kanzure> when they say circuits they don't really mean circuits
17:54 < RedMEdic> So what do they mean?
17:55 < kanzure> highly conserved pathways
17:55 < fenn> conserved across humans at least
17:55 < kanzure> turns out monkeys too
17:56 < kanzure> for example, auditory cortex stuff always needs to go somewhere
17:56 < fenn> ok can i delete these papers now
17:56 < kanzure> i have not seen any reports of redundant auditory cortexes that just eat data
17:56 < kanzure> yes
17:56 < kanzure> although i would still like some postulation regarding whether or not you still think number of neurons is a better explanation than macrocircuits
17:56 < fenn> a brain region that doesn't feed-back or feed-elsewhere would be useless
17:57 < kanzure> yes but it doesn't just feedforward into everything else
17:58 < kanzure> holy diagram batman http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3243081/bin/fnana-05-00065-g001.jpg
17:58 < kanzure> (this is from )
17:59 < kanzure> their visualization is.. interesting.
17:59 < kanzure> http://www.frontiersin.org/files/cognitiveconsilience/index.html
18:00 < RedMEdic> Is it true that there are more conections running from the bottom of the brain up than the other way?
18:02 < fenn> "the bottom"
18:03 < fenn> so "mammilary body" wasn't enough for you, pervert
18:03 < RedMEdic> R Complex is what I mean
18:05 < fenn> oh i thought you were only talking about in the cortex
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18:10 < fenn> "basketry and wilderness survival are nice, but what the scouts really need is a merit badge for hacking"
18:12 < chris_99> heh
18:12 < RedMEdic> Is whoever said that arguing that scouts need to learn computers because thats the only way they will ever get a job
18:12 < RedMEdic> or that they need to learn hacking to raise up a new generation of cyberwarriors to fight the evil chinese who hate our freedoms?
18:13 < chris_99> i rather like the story about the radioactive boy scout, he got his radioactive badge i think
18:13 < fenn> RedMEdic: the story you heard is probably about how there are more feedback pathways in the cortex's sensory processing areas
18:13 < fenn> i don't see why the number of connections to the basal ganglia is important
18:14 < RedMEdic> The guy was making the argument that because there were more connections running from the "lower" parts of the brain to the "higher" ones
18:14 < RedMEdic> that showed that people were more under the influence of their more base and emotional impulses
18:14 < kanzure> of course this author would think it's about bipedalism, he's a parkinson's researcher
18:14 < RedMEdic> than their higher more rational ones
18:14 < kanzure> "Impaired cognitive control in Parkinson’s disease patients with freezing of gait in response to cognitive load"
18:15 < RedMEdic> It sounded like bullshit, drawing that kind of conclusion based on that
18:16 < kanzure> what is the difference between an "emotional impulse" and any other kind of "impulse"?
18:17 < RedMEdic> Thats what was bugging me, I was just wondering if the science he based it on was even legit to begin with
18:18 < fenn> the other proposed scouting badges were "texting >100wpm, SEO, reality television show pitching, existential absurdism, feminism (in macaroni decorated posters), and sarcasm"
18:18 < fenn> i'm not sure what the point of the article was
18:19 < kanzure> *black sarcasm
18:19 < RedMEdic> Thats the Onion
18:19 < RedMEdic> please tell me thats the onion
18:19 < fenn> it's John Kelly's Washington, a shitpost column in the washington post
18:21 < RedMEdic> The Washington Post is making clickbait now
18:21 < RedMEdic> journalism is dead
18:21 < fenn> is it clickbait if it's in the printed edition
18:22 < RedMEdic> yes
18:22 < RedMEdic> because no one reads printed newspapers anymore
18:22 < fenn> i would have supported writing a column about how scouts need to learn computer skills because their entire fucking economy will be gone by the time they grow up
18:23 < fenn> but the writer sort of fell asleep and finished the article on the train i guess
18:23 < kanzure> "These studies also showed that the human brain is not exceptional in its cellular composition, as it was found to contain as many neuronal and non-neuronal cells as would be expected of a primate brain of its size. Additionally, the so-called overdeveloped human cerebral cortex holds only 19% of all brain neurons, a fraction that is similar to that found in other mammals. In what regards absolute numbers of neurons, however, the human ...
18:23 < kanzure> ... brain does have two advantages compared to other mammalian brains: compared to rodents, and probably to whales and elephants as well, it is built according to the very economical, space-saving scaling rules that apply to other primates; and, among economically built primate brains, it is the largest, hence containing the most neurons. These findings argue in favor of a view of cognitive abilities that is centered on absolute numbers ...
18:23 < kanzure> ... of neurons, rather than on body size or encephalization, and call for a re-examination of several concepts related to the exceptionality of the human brain."
18:23 < kanzure> (from )
18:24 < fenn> so birds and bees with equivalently sized brains would be super-duper-intelligent?
18:25 < RedMEdic> Reminds me of something I read awhile ago, that it was a couple thousand years after humans developed the brain size they do and we started seeing things like art and decorative jewelry ect
18:25 < RedMEdic> and a few thousand years after that for agriculture and civilization to start appearing
18:25 < RedMEdic> Whatever caused the massive jump in human intelligence it was definitely more than just brain size
18:25 < kanzure> fenn: i don't know what you mean. similarly sized in number of neurons? neuron sizes? neuron mass?
18:26 < kanzure> "brain size" is ambiguous
18:26 < fenn> "economically built"
18:26 < fenn> bees have only like 100,000 neurons but can solve puzzles, communicate, do math, learn english, etc
18:26 < fenn> ok they can read some words i think :P
18:27 < fenn> very economical. such intelligence. wow.
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18:27 < kanzure> er i believe it has been shown that even very tiny neural networks can do math
18:27 < kanzure> which is not very interesting
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18:28 < fenn> anyway birds and bees are smarter than you'd expect based on brain mass, probably because they have selection pressure against being too massive because they fly
18:30 < fenn> what is "economical" then, saving on brain mass? saving on energy use?
18:30 < kanzure> "space-saving"
18:32 < fenn> space is proportional to mass; all brains are mostly water and fat
18:32 < kanzure> "Orangutan fish eating, primate aquatic fauna eating, and their implications for the origins of ancestral hominin fish eating"
18:34 < fenn> i dont see any abstract
18:35 < kanzure> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=xNQF7ZGw
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18:36 < kanzure> "Orangutan and primate findings are generally consistent with Stewart's (2010) reconstruction of the origins of ancestral hominin fish eating, but suggest that it, and tool-assisted fish catching, were possible much earlier"
18:36 < kanzure> (from another abstract) "Despite great diversity across mammals in the number of cortical neurons and the cognitive functions they support, the fundamental process which populates the cerebral cortex with neurons changes only subtly from the smallest rodents to the largest primates. ... We gathered data on the growing and mature cortex to build a computational model of neurogenesis. The model recapitulates how dynamics, known to vary ...
18:36 < kanzure> ... across species and across the cortex, sculpt the basic landscape of the embryonic cortex. Features of the cortex long thought to be the result of special selection are revealed as the necessary product of a conserved mechanism."
18:36 < fenn> the paper http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Anne_Russon/publication/264053544_Orangutan_fish_eating_primate_aquatic_fauna_eating_and_their_implications_for_the_origins_of_ancestral_hominin_fish_eating/links/54118f140cf264cee28b3fcd
18:40 < chris_99> http://www.nature.com/news/nature-makes-all-articles-free-to-view-1.16460
18:41 < chris_99> alas not downloadable
18:42 < kanzure> "As a result, the volume of gray matter expressed as a percentage of total brain volume is about the same for all anthropoid primates."
18:43 < kanzure> "The relative white matter volume, on the other hand, increases with brain size, from 9% in pygmy marmosets (Cebuella pygmaea) to about 35% in humans, the highest value in primates (Hofman, 1989). "
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18:48 < kanzure> "Recent studies in primates have shown that the number of neurons underneath a unit area of cortical surface is not constant and varies linearly with neuronal density, a parameter that is neither related to cortical size nor to the total number of neurons (Herculano-Houzel et al., 2008; Wang et al., 2008; Herculano-Houzel, 2009). These studies indicate that the cortical column varies both in size and number of neurons, which is in ...
18:48 < kanzure> ... accordance with predictions based on computational models (Hofman, 1985b). Indeed, comparative morphological differences between cortical areas and species cast doubt on the notion of a universal cortical module or minicolumn (DeFelipe et al., 2002)."
18:48 < kanzure> (from )
18:54 < fenn> taking bets on how long until publishers try to switch all content to DRM-protected formats
18:54 < kanzure> "Comparative work suggests that the human prefrontal cortex differs from that of closely related primate species less in relative size than it does in organization. Specific reorganizational events in neural circuitry may have taken place either as a consequence of adjusting to increases in size or as adaptive responses to specific selection pressures. Living in complex environments has been recognized as a considerable factor in the ...
18:54 < kanzure> ... evolution of primate cognition. Normal frontal lobe development and function are also compromised in several neurological and psychiatric disorders. A phylogenetically recent reorganization of frontal cortical circuitry may have been critical to the emergence of human-specific executive and social-emotional functions, and developmental pathology in these same systems underlies many psychiatric and neurological disorders, including ...
18:54 < kanzure> ... autism and schizophrenia."
18:55 < kanzure> err.
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18:58 < kanzure> i forgot about the "woven sheets" study that also used diffusion tensor imaging http://people.psych.cornell.edu/~jec7/pcd%202012-13%20pubs/weedensci.pdf
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18:59 < fenn> they just brush off the 4:1 ratio of human cortical neurons to ape cortical neurons like it's no big deal
18:59 < kanzure> "We have found that the fiber pathways of the forebrain are organized as a highly curved 3D grid derived from the principal axes of development. This structure has a natural interpretation. By the Frobenius theorem, any three families of curves in 3D mutually cross in sheets if and only if they represent the gradients of three corresponding scalar functions (26, 27). Accordingly, we hypothesize that the pathways of the brain follow a ...
18:59 < kanzure> ... base-plan established by the three chemotactic gradients of early embryogenesis (30). Thus, the pathways of the mature brain presents an image of these three primordial gradients, plastically deformed by development."
19:01 < kanzure> yeah i guess. hrm.
19:01 < fenn> this is standard developmental biology
19:02 < fenn> the last quote
19:02 < kanzure> right
19:04 < kanzure> well yes, plans from embryogenesis impact future growth, sure, but i think the conservation of a 3d grid in "fiber pathways" is not a natural conclusion
19:04 < fenn> i probably got this from you http://fennetic.net/irc/hox_genes_as_turing_patterns_for_development_of_segments.jpg
19:04 < kanzure> nope i don't remember this one. i'm sure i have talked about hox genes with you, though.
19:05 < fenn> "the finger bones follow a base-plan established by chemotactic gradients of early embryogenesis"
19:06 < kanzure> "3d grid" yo
19:08 < fenn> but, frobenius!
19:08 < kanzure> i really don't see anyone championing number of neurons. weird.
19:09 < fenn> probably because it was associated with racist/eugenics stuff in the 19th century
19:09 < kanzure> maybe because there's some sort of bias against an attraction to large numbers because they are large ("science is more subtle than that!")
19:09 < fenn> .wik phrenology
19:09 < yoleaux> "Phrenology (from Greek: φρήν, phrēn, "mind"; and λόγος, logos, "knowledge") is a pseudoscience primarily focused on measurements of the human skull, based on the concept that the brain is the organ of the mind, and that certain brain areas have localized, specific functions or modules." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology
19:09 < kanzure> wait... what?
19:09 < kanzure> oh, skull
19:10 < kanzure> yes i remember this one
19:11 < kanzure> modifying a few monkey genes is an easy way to test this hypothesis of yours
19:12 < kanzure> i suppose there may be other genetic changes required for certain cell specializations to handle longer distances (increased myelination, for example) and other differences that come with larger neuron populations...
19:12 < kanzure> so increasing the number of monkey or gorilla neurons may not be a good experiment
19:14 < fenn> i don't know what genes control cortex size or skull size
19:14 < fenn> also, haven't you seen "planet of the apes"!!
19:16 < fenn> it would be a good experiment; it would tell you if number of neurons is the only difference or not
19:17 < fenn> i'd guess not fwiw
19:17 < fenn> something about glial cells
19:17 < kanzure> why would you guess not?
19:17 < kanzure> hmm okay
19:17 < kanzure> well, add in some glial cell genes maybe
19:17 < fenn> that mouse study with human glial cells
19:18 < fenn> apes are close enough that they probably have similar myelin
19:19 < fenn> anyway it would be unsatisfying because apes are so similar already it doesn't tell you much if you succeed
19:19 < fenn> but you'd have a talking ape or whatever
19:19 < fenn> or at least an ape that can do calculus
19:19 < kanzure> another option is to do phylogeny/evolution genetics stuff
19:20 < RedMEdic> Wait wait wait
19:20 < fenn> please elaborate
19:20 < RedMEdic> youre saying I can genetically engineer an ape to do calculus for me?
19:20 < fenn> RedMEdic: of course not, that would be slavery
19:20 < fenn> RedMEdic: use mathematica instead
19:20 < kanzure> fenn: well, we have their genomes
19:20 < fenn> or macsyma if you're a free software zealot
19:21 < kanzure> so we can just do brain + genome analysis things first
19:21 < kanzure> and then look at the set of different alleles
19:22 < fenn> yeah i would love to do that, but the liberals won't let us...
19:22 < RedMEdic> Thanks Obama
19:22 < fenn> not obama
19:22 < kanzure> what do you mean they wont let us do that?
19:22 < kanzure> ncbi has the gene data go download it or something
19:22 < fenn> um, scientists are afraid to talk about the relationship between genetics and intelligence, and funding for it has been weak because of this
19:22 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Genetic%20basis%20of%20human%20brain%20evolution.pdf
19:23 < kanzure> oh whatever, who cares about intelligence
19:23 < kanzure> i just want to see the differences
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19:25 < fenn> what would you look at exactly
19:25 < fenn> what phenotypic characteristics
19:26 < fenn> (since you can't use intelligence tests)
19:27 < fenn> there must be thousands of genes to sort through
19:28 < kanzure> iirc it's like <200 genes
19:28 < fenn> for what
19:28 < kanzure> that seem to be unique to human brain stuff
19:29 < kanzure> er, out of the human genome, i don't mean compared to non-human brains
19:29 < kanzure> "Diversity of microRNAs in human and chimpanzee brain" no that wasn't the paper... hrm. i feel like it was a venter paper for some reason.
19:30 < fenn> i mean there are thousands of genes that control brain development and function
19:30 < kanzure> here is a venter paper "3,400 new expressed sequence tags identify diversity of transcripts in human brain"
19:30 < kanzure> and "Chromosomal distribution of 320 genes from a brain cDNA library"
19:30 < fenn> unique to humans doesn't necessarily mean "what makes humans qualitatively different"
19:30 < kanzure> i know
19:31 < kanzure> you wanted to know what i would look at
19:31 < kanzure> those are the genes that i would look at
19:31 < fenn> ok
19:31 < kanzure> i would also factor out anything from KEBB about cell metabolism (even though cell metabolism is important)
19:31 < fenn> on the other side of the equation, what phenotypic characteristics would you correlate the gene alleles with?
19:32 < kanzure> certain brain genes (like microcephelin) already have known correlations with brain size (for example)
19:32 < fenn> meh
19:32 < fenn> that's a pathology
19:33 < kanzure> hmm someone did transcriptome sampling from a monkey brain "Transcriptional architecture of the primate neocortex"
19:33 < kanzure> oh look "Human-specific transcriptional networks in the brain"
19:34 < kanzure> http://www.einstein.yu.edu/uploadedFiles/departments/neurology/Divisions/Child_Neurology/Child_Neurology_References/Language/Geschsind%20D%20Human-specificathways%20in%20the%20brain%202012.pdf
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19:36 < fenn> it's too bad we killed off everything not-quite-human
19:38 < kanzure> "However, there are some remarkable differences between the gene coexpression connectivity tree and the species tree: the relative distance of human genes to chimpanzee and macaque genes is much larger in the connectivity tree (Figure 7D), indicating a faster evolution of gene connectivity, and hence gene regulation, in the human brain. Previously, we have found that connectivity is a more sensitive measure of evolutionary divergence ...
19:38 < kanzure> ... than gene expression (Miller et al., 2010; Oldham et al., 2006). Therefore, by using new technology and multiple primate species, we have shown a rapidly evolving mechanism for the coordination of gene expression patterns in the human brain."
19:42 < kanzure> well that sucks
19:42 < fenn> spaghettiball
19:42 < fenn> (figure 3)
19:43 < kanzure> seems likely that neuron count may not be sufficient
19:44 < fenn> i agree only because of the hard-coded human language syntax rules
19:44 < fenn> pointing at stuff to teach is another thing
19:45 < fenn> is music important though? i don't think so
19:45 < fenn> it's an apparently random sexually selected trait
19:46 < fenn> nevertheless apes don't have music
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19:48 < kanzure> uplifting a gorilla might be simpler than uplifting your laptop
19:49 < fenn> sure, a gorilla has many orders of magnitude more processing power
19:51 < fenn> also it has efficient fault-tolerant algorithms and a good controller-embodiment interface
19:51 < fenn> but what would be the point
19:52 < kanzure> knowing the differences would give insight into the missing ingredients into something approximating general intelligence
19:59 < kanzure> "In the days of prehistory, 50,000 BC, Savage was a caveman named Vandar Adg, leader of the Cro-Magnon Blood Tribe. He was bathed in the radiation of a mysterious meteorite, which gave him incredible intellect and immortality. According to Lex Luthor, there may be evidence to suggest that Savage was the first cannibal on record. Though the Calculator took this to be a joke, Luthor was apparently serious, and Savage has not shown much ...
19:59 < kanzure> ... regard for human life."
20:00 < kanzure> wait, wrong universe
20:00 < bbrittain> here to bitch about nature
20:01 < bbrittain> http://www.nature.com/news/nature-makes-all-articles-free-to-view-1.16460
20:01 < bbrittain> .title
20:01 < yoleaux> Nature makes all articles free to view : Nature News & Comment
20:01 < kanzure> not downloadable, next plz
20:01 < bbrittain> I hate them all
20:02 < kanzure> bbrittain: which genes and which alleles do you think would be necessary to make an ape brain do what a human brain does?
20:02 < bbrittain> holy shit. I have no clue
20:02 < kanzure> this seems like something phylogenetic genome and transcriptome sequencing should help with
20:02 < bbrittain> I don't really do human stuff... and brains are really complicated.
20:03 * bbrittain goes to the internets
20:04 < kanzure> also someone should do monkey brain embryogenesis transcriptomics stuff from different developmental stages and areas of brain matter
20:04 < kanzure> since clearly doing that in humans would be punishable by stoning or something
20:04 < bbrittain> "iirc it's like <200 genes"
20:04 < kanzure> anyway those results would help determine which things to be looking at in the human genome
20:05 < bbrittain> uhh.. let's just put those genes in an ape and see what happens
20:05 < bbrittain> why haven't we done that yet?
20:05 < kanzure> see http://www.einstein.yu.edu/uploadedFiles/departments/neurology/Divisions/Child_Neurology/Child_Neurology_References/Language/Geschsind%20D%20Human-specificathways%20in%20the%20brain%202012.pdf
20:06 < bbrittain> I mean, improving our intelligence is the ultimate dream... this should be super high funding level stuff
20:06 * bbrittain is looking at paper
20:08 < kanzure> my motivation is that i am not sure why monkeys don't have human cognitive abilities
20:08 < kanzure> and that if those reasons are known then they can maybe be translated into software things
20:09 < bbrittain> I'm very skeptical of that. (oh look! my catchphrase) just because we have genes and what proteins they generate...
20:09 < bbrittain> and then study all the interactions
20:09 < kanzure> well you would look at the generated neuroanatomy obviously
20:09 < bbrittain> we don't understand _why_
20:09 < bbrittain> and what sorta resolution to we get?
20:09 < bbrittain> does the connectome tell the whole story?
20:09 < kanzure> e.g. gorilla neuroanatomy when dumb vs ape neuroanatomy when discussing the finer points of cosmology with you
20:09 < bbrittain> brains man. brains.
20:09 < bbrittain> huh
20:10 < bbrittain> that could be super cool
20:10 < fenn> bbrittain: because mobs of englishmen would descend upon the labs with pitchforks, were such an abomination to be brought into this world
20:10 < fenn> re "let's just put those genes in an ape"
20:11 < bbrittain> I started writting something about just making knockouts in humans... then realized everyone would hate me
20:11 < fenn> there are plenty of existing knockout humans to study
20:11 < bbrittain> how much info do we get from them?
20:11 < fenn> you just aren't allowed to slice them up
20:11 < kanzure> i don't think knocking out individual human genes would be helpful
20:12 < fenn> well you can do MRI, post-mortem (sometimes)
20:12 < bbrittain> well, are you allowed to slice up a cosmology discussing ape?
20:12 < fenn> good question, i'd say, given the sad state of interpreting law, yes
20:12 < bbrittain> fuck laws. morally, I say no.
20:12 < kanzure> uh you would slice up the one that isn't talking cosmology with you
20:13 < kanzure> like pre-birth
20:13 < fenn> you said "are you allowed" not "should you"
20:13 < bbrittain> true
20:14 < bbrittain> I was talking with some animal liberation front people last sunday... they would kill me if they saw this convo
20:14 < fenn> probably not
20:14 < kanzure> uplifting animal intelligences is something they should totally go for
20:14 < bbrittain> I mean, they claim non-violence...
20:14 < fenn> they just dont see much difference between a smart ape and a dumb ape
20:15 < fenn> or an ape or a cow
20:16 < bbrittain> but at some point it becomes nonsensical
20:16 < kanzure> "it's just more computational power and more neurons" is a very appealing hypothesis because it involves doing almost no further work
20:16 < fenn> "it"
20:16 < kanzure> bbrittain: context is that some paper was arguing that monkeys are spending too much of their cognitive information processing abilities on not drowning in their own drool
20:16 < fenn> "iq"
20:17 < bbrittain> kanzure: that's one I'm still working on
20:17 < kanzure> hm?
20:17 < bbrittain> not drowning in my drool
20:17 < fenn> i thought it meant walking (cerebellar tasks)
20:18 < kanzure> yes "walking enabled some extra computational capacity that then got freed up to do other things"
20:18 < fenn> (is swallowing actually one of those?)
20:18 < bbrittain> that's awesome
20:18 < kanzure> s/enabled/required
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20:28 < kanzure> gorilla einstein is gonna approve so hard
20:33 < fenn> http://modifiedediting.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/168589233.jpg orangutan einstein says hrmph
20:45 < kanzure> gorilla einstein http://i.imgur.com/Cukoj5O.jpg
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20:50 < kanzure> "Nature's internal costs of publishing run at £20,000–30,000 (US$31,000–47,000) per paper, an extremely high charge to load onto authors or funders rather than spread over subscribers."
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20:58 < fenn> lol i'd love to see the cost breakdown for that
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21:01 < kanzure> "Part of his new idea to create a tiny device that sequences tumor cells (data processed in cloud) then synthesizes DNA for infection into a tiny bioreactor where e.coli reside, turning the DNA into a small number of viruses (may also work by injecting DNA back into the tumor cells), then purifying burst cells so that only viruses come out the other side... could benefit from the Lee Cronin work on 3D printed reactionware (that's his ...
21:01 < kanzure> ... term) that have the bioreactor preloaded and lined with useful chemicals"
21:01 < kanzure> what
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21:03 < fenn> e. coli is the wrong cloning vector for that mmkay
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21:21 < fenn> i wonder what creationists think when (if) they see things like this http://fennetic.net/irc/brain_evolution.png
21:22 < kanzure> have they figured out that they shouldn't expose you to the blinding radiation of television yet?
21:22 < fenn> no
21:23 < kanzure> do you need to be rescued?
21:23 < fenn> possibly
21:25 * fenn reads about hypnotism
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00:12 < nmz787> were y'all lookin for this? http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/Comparative_analyses_of_evolutionary_rates_reveal_different_pathways_to_encephalization_in_bats_carnivorans_and_primates.pdf
00:13 < nmz787> fenn: I think that sambrook book may actually be part of a shelf-wide set (I could be misremembering that)
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01:50 < archels> kanzure: afaik, the main deficit in apes' brains compared to humans is their much smaller prefrontal cortex
01:52 < archels> when are we launching the kickstarter to engineer superintelligent apes?
01:54 < genehacker> aren't you a superintelligent ape?
01:58 < archels> thanks, but that's too much honour
01:59 < archels> also I wasn't engineered
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03:38 < chris_99> hmm, apparently the company i contacted that do pretty cheap microfluidic chips
03:38 < chris_99> also do custom made ones
03:46 < genehacker> now if they would only do picoarrays....
03:47 < chris_99> heh
03:49 < chris_99> Asking what size lithography process they use, seems a sensible question right?
03:59 < genehacker> yah
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04:41 < delinquentme> chris_99, i have a chip design I was looking for a price on
04:41 < delinquentme> you mind sending it over?
04:42 < chris_99> winsense.co.th is the company
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06:10 < kanzure> archels: afaik the size of the prefrontal cortex is not the only difference
06:11 < kanzure> and this is what the experiment would be useful for determining (whether or not number of neurons is sufficient to make a monkey brain do what a human brain do)
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06:23 < kanzure> .wik neanderthal genome
06:23 < archels> well, it probably takes more than just dropping more neurons in there
06:24 < kanzure> i was thinking there may be some large macrocircuit differences that allow for executive control or something
06:25 < kanzure> although that sounds like a homunculus
06:25 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Towards%20an%20executive%20without%20a%20homunculus:%20computational%20models%20of%20the%20prefrontal%20cortex%20basal%20ganglia%20system.pdf
06:28 < kanzure> portia connectome is a thing we should do eventually
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06:42 < kanzure> hello eudoxia
06:45 < eudoxia> hey kanzure
06:55 < eudoxia> kanzure: i found a little library that might make rewriting nanoengineer easier https://github.com/fogleman/pg
06:55 < kanzure> "infect hiv-positive individuals with a less-deadly strain of hiv" http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~piecze/Lancet.PDF
06:56 < kanzure> eudoxia: honestly whenever i next put in a chunk of time on nanoengineer i will not be focusing on the gui at all, except for when i have to rip it off or delete it
06:57 < kanzure> contrary opinion about the hiv-versus-hiv idea http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1169464/
06:57 < eudoxia> kanzure: well, there isn't much to NE other than the GUI, except OpenBabel integration
06:58 < kanzure> right
06:58 < kanzure> that's a good thing
06:58 < kanzure> makes my job easier
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07:31 < kanzure> "As it turns out, the answer was even more interesting: the elephant brain as a whole has 3 times the number of neurons of the human brain, 257 billion neurons against an average 86 billion in ours, BUT 98% of those neurons are located in the elephant cerebellum, which turns out to be a major outlier in the numeric relationship between numbers of neurons in the cerebral cortex and cerebellum. While other mammals (humans included) have ...
07:31 < kanzure> ... about 4 neurons in the cerebellum to every neuron in the cerebral cortex, the elephant has 45 neurons in the cerebellum to every neuron in the cerebral cortex. All we can do for now is to speculate on the reason for this extraordinary number of neurons in the elephant cerebellum, and the most likely candidates right now is to me the fine sensorimotor control of the trunk, a 200-pound appendage that has amazingly fine sensory and ...
07:31 < kanzure> ... motor capabilities, which are known to involve the cerebellum."
07:31 < kanzure> "Despite the enormous number of neurons in the elephant cerebellum, its cerebral cortex, which is twice the size of ours, has only one third of the neurons in an average human cerebral cortex. Taken together, these results suggest that the limiting factor to cognitive abilities is not the number of neurons in the whole brain, but in the cerebral cortex (to which I would add, “provided that the cerebellum has enough neurons to shape ...
07:31 < kanzure> ... activity in the cerebral cortex”)."
07:31 < kanzure> from http://intelligence.org/2014/04/22/suzana-herculano-houzel/
07:31 < kanzure> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_ylo=2010&q=Suzana+Herculano-Houzel&hl=en&as_sdt=0,44
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07:47 < eudoxia> i'm more surprised by how the trunk masses 90 kilograms, i would have thought it would be something like 45kg
07:48 < eudoxia> .wa 200lbs in kg
07:49 < kanzure> wolfram is thinking really hard about your request
07:50 < eudoxia> conversion is done by a 7d cellular automaton i'm sure
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07:53 < eudoxia> .c 200lbs in kg
07:54 < eudoxia> ugh
07:54 < Qfwfq> 90.7kg
07:54 < eudoxia> no .botsnack for you yoleaux
07:55 < kanzure> i wonder if there are any disorders similar to microencephaly that are specifically caused by low absolute numbers of neurons in the cortex in human
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09:28 < nmz787_i> "LIGO has three detectors: one in Livingston, Louisiana; the other two (in the same vacuum tubes) at the Hanford site in Richland, Washington. Each consists of two light storage arms which are 2 to 4 kilometers in length. These are at 90 degree angles to each other, with the light passing through 1m diameter vacuum tubes running the entire 4 kilometers."
09:31 < nmz787_i> hmm, http://www.hanford.gov/page.cfm/HanfordSiteTours
09:32 < nmz787_i> 'question: can we see the meter-wide vacuum tubes?'
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09:36 < nmz787_i> bunch of mailing lists https://dcc.ligo.org/public/0112/P1400033/005/FinalDocumentAug2014%289%29.pdf
09:44 < nmz787_i> there are so many of these hackathon things that go on.... I had a thought that kanzure should come up with a good hackathon idea and sponsor pizza and drinks.... I bet we could swindle some room for a day or two near downtown
09:45 < nmz787_i> for CAD or something.... maybe some local autodesk folks would show up
09:46 < nmz787_i> or a smaller non-local pizza-sponsored thing for paperbot stuff
09:46 < kanzure> i don't think that cad is something that can be solved in a single day
09:47 < kanzure> although i think if you fed this guy pizza that he would do some interesting things: https://github.com/pboyer/verb
09:47 < nmz787_i> no, but you should still have one
09:47 < kanzure> "more surface-surface intersection thoughts" https://github.com/pboyer/verb/commit/56a07afd68efb1334940aaded57fef47a7bc783a
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09:58 < ParahSailin> no fuck you guido i was using tuple unpack in lambdas
09:59 < ParahSailin> from __past__ import useful_shit
09:59 < nmz787_i> http://paste.pound-python.org/show/eQe6yvE3ykhjcNXCWPfd/
09:59 < nmz787_i> "BioNano Genomics: de novo Genome Mapping using single molecules"
09:59 < nmz787_i> "Abstract: We present a single-molecule imaging system (Irys) based on NanoChannel Array technology that linearizes extremely long DNA molecules for direct observation of the long-range architectural and organizational information contained within all manners of complex genomes."
10:04 < nmz787_i> ParahSailin: have you seen this ? http://www.bionanogenomics.com/technology/why-genome-mapping/
10:04 < nmz787_i> http://www.bionanogenomics.com/technology/nanochannel-arrays/
10:04 < nmz787_i> that looks quite similar to a nanofluidic I found and was planning to try replicating the protocol of
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10:40 < superkuh> "“We know researchers are already sharing content, often in hidden corners of the Internet or using clumsy, time-consuming practices,” said a statement by Timo Hannay, the managing director of Digital Science, a division of Macmillan that has invested in ReadCube."
10:41 < superkuh> http://www.nature.com/news/nature-makes-all-articles-free-to-view-1.16460
10:55 < kanzure> that $40k/pdf thing... wtf.
10:55 < kanzure> readcube is pretty awfu
10:55 < kanzure> i don't know if you've tried reverse engineering it
10:55 < kanzure> but basically: png images of every page
10:55 < kanzure> and then they charge you rental fees
10:56 < kanzure> sorry to bring you such bad news heh
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10:59 < nmz787_i> "Nature will make its articles back to 1869 free to share to be read online but not to be printed or downloaded." NEWSFLASH - reading in your browser requires downloading
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11:08 < superkuh> Well aware of readcube's shit.
11:15 < kanzure> what i don't understand is how readcube convinced them to use readcube at all
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11:16 < kanzure> paperbot$ grep "readcube" *.txt | wc -l
11:16 < kanzure> 119
11:17 < kanzure> http://onlinelibrarystatic.wiley.com/js/wol.readcube.js
11:17 < kanzure> http://download.readcube.com/client/readcube.exe
11:17 < kanzure> http://download.readcube.com/client/readcube.dmg
11:18 < kanzure> http://cdn.objects.readcube.com/prerendered/e45571ca078733939300653847d58acfe97071a3df324c96bb08f782fabd98b5/1.jpg?Expires=1577836800&Signature=iNnOUyQa-07WCiR5uWyfmFaNM8oeC9QiFziOvnjs2Bb1RvfmQaU5BFOH4wdkS4ZsCrPtaTOAnAU-zYI~yeYLjNLJqXO5hdoFWJlSfURFd66Msk5e4UBZbCH-H~RBDiaIY2TGT9cjbMI08XJMbJJ26SKPh2FytzaZxAvafy~hLls_&Key-Pair-Id=APKAI2AQJBOTGLBL6N3A
11:19 < archels> https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/178df0aceff05642f8ada11c5fc52287/tumblr_nfdspvL6UT1qb26yko1_1280.jpg
11:24 < kanzure> readcube cloudfront is http://di4gj5lwn0jim.cloudfront.net/
11:25 < nmz787_i> would we need to make a bot that shares every link it has access to? to at least make all the readcube-available data accessible
11:27 < kanzure> they will just revoke access
11:27 < kanzure> and also, who the fuck wants pngs of every page? nobody
11:27 < nmz787_i> sure people want pngs, if pdfs aren't available
11:27 < kanzure> no thanks
11:28 < kanzure> i am also uninterested in associating myself with people that are okay with that
11:28 < nmz787_i> and why would they revoke access, didn't that article say sharing links from institutions was allowed?
11:28 < nmz787_i> psh, you just don't like data enough obviouslyt
11:28 < kanzure> "sharing links to all articles" is not one of the things they will be okay with
11:29 < nmz787_i> so you're saying if there was an article you absolutely couldn't get within a minute or so, but the png link was available, you wouldn't read the png?
11:29 < nmz787_i> that would be pretty dumb
11:29 < kanzure> that's right
11:29 < kanzure> https://d1ybdlpf6gb4fg.cloudfront.net/reader/builds/stable/reader.swf?Expires=1420070400&Signature=HvGH6KChcjDOLTWY4kcB0b~FkmMulIgoEZJnBKukX5obVoK090WIuOr4~gDOJoTkn-qwnPA8nnr3ch1yx1DRQhgcILNcz6goaxh6iUX6zraIwJWYJbhe1kLU-BZAe54ZCgjhPqpht3sWcUHwX~oncCxxPiBM55OsqAk8mPYnbU4_&Key-Pair-Id=APKAI2AQJBOTGLBL6N3A
11:30 < nmz787_i> wow
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12:33 < fenn> regarding my earlier comment about "the liberals", saw this in the paper today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2014/12/01/nows-your-chance-to-buy-james-watsons-nobel-prize-because-racism/
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12:47 < fenn> this was on page 2 btw, not some opinion column
12:51 < heath> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2117384013/flux-all-in-one-3d-printer-unlimited-elegant-simpl
12:51 < heath> when my zego arrives, i'm selling it if anyone wants it for a good deal
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13:00 < fenn> "we took the best of open source designs and put a glossy plastic shell on it"
13:01 < fenn> i can't tell if i'm becoming a crank of if everyone just sucks
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13:08 < fenn> hah "carbon fiber reinforced PLA" http://www.proto-pasta.com/product/
13:09 < fenn> it's actually weaker than regular PLA
13:09 < kanzure> everyone sucks
13:10 < kanzure> are there any human diseases that involve a reduction in absolute number of neurons in the brain?
13:10 < heath> i just wish i'd known they were going to take my money regardless of them passing their goal
13:10 < heath> that was my first experience with indiegogo
13:10 < kanzure> also, in the absence of monkeys getting more neurons, is there some other way to test whether or not absolute number of neurons is the trick?
13:11 < fenn> heath: the FLUX is on kickstarter though...?
13:11 < heath> i was referencing the zego
13:11 < kanzure> for example, maybe there is a hereditary disease that turns humans into something approximating a chimpanzee
13:11 < kanzure> i guess i should search for "human monkey disorder"
13:11 < heath> fenn: sorry for not being clear, sir :)
13:12 < kanzure> and maybe that disease doesn't change absolute number of neurons but instead something else important
13:12 < kanzure> i suppose it would be helpful if people have looked into all the novel ways that mental retardation can happen
13:12 < fenn> if they don't pass the goal do they still give you a printer?
13:12 < kanzure> "mental retardation involving chimpanzee sounds"
13:13 < heath> fenn: they are supposedly working on it, i think they had some problems and so there's a delay
13:13 < fenn> woah badass skull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vimont_Traite_de_Phrenologie_022.jpg
13:14 < heath> they haven't released cad files, and it's difficult to get in touch with the guy over the project, that's my biggest complaint
13:14 < heath> those are my biggest complaints, rather
13:15 < fenn> kanzure: my mom went to high school with a girl like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocephalus#Exceptional_case
13:16 < kanzure> there's also microencephalis
13:16 < fenn> she didnt say anything about "borderline intellectual functioning though" the girl was quite normal on the outside
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13:17 < kanzure> "One interesting case of hydrocephalus was a man whose brain shrank to a thin sheet of tissue, due to buildup of cerebrospinal fluid in his skull."
13:17 < kanzure> "Dr. Lionel Feuillet of Hôpital de la Timone in Marseille said, "The images were most unusual... the brain was virtually absent."[13]"
13:17 < kanzure> right... so an iq of 75 seems pretty good, really.
13:17 < fenn> basically the difference between having wrinkles and not having wrinkles
13:18 < kanzure> what?
13:18 < fenn> so maybe that doesn't really represent a difference in number of neurons
13:18 < kanzure> a thin sheet sounds dramatically different from "wrinkles vs no wrinkles"
13:18 < fenn> are you sure?
13:19 < kanzure> i have no idea :(
13:20 < kanzure> to me a "thin sheet" means something like "more than 70% of the matter is missing"
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13:30 < fenn> http://www.mymultiplesclerosis.co.uk/misc/mysterious-brain.html "Since she was a child, doctors have told her that she has no more than 10-15% of a normal brain. ... far from being an idiot, has an IQ of 113 making her above average."
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13:37 < fenn> hrm ok what a misleading article. "although Sharon's ventricles expanded hugely because of her hydrocephalus, it was not at the expense of brain size. ... her brain is actually occupying a larger space"
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13:52 < jrayhawk> Well, this helps: /set activity_hide_level JOINS PARTS QUITS MODES TOPICS NICKS
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13:56 < kanzure> does that remove messages from each window, or only the notifications?
13:57 < kanzure> er i mean, does it remove the "somejerk has parted" messages in the main text receptacle
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14:00 < eudoxia> 'receptacle' is a funny word for it
14:01 < jrayhawk> there's three different levels of channel activity flag in the statusbar; this eliminates everything that would generate the lowest one
14:02 < kanzure> so it is only statusbar-impacting
14:02 < jrayhawk> yeah
14:02 < kanzure> neat
14:02 < kanzure> "Lissencephaly, which literally means smooth brain, is a rare brain formation disorder caused by defective neuronal migration during the 12th to 24th weeks of gestation resulting in a lack of development of brain folds (gyri) and grooves (sulci).[1] It is a form of cephalic disorder. Terms such as 'agyria' (no gyri) or 'pachygyria' (broad gyri) are used to describe the appearance of the surface of the brain. Children with lissencephaly ...
14:02 < kanzure> ... generally have significant developmental delays, but these vary greatly from child to child depending on the degree of brain malformation and seizure control. Life expectancy can be shortened, generally due to respiratory problems."
14:03 < kanzure> "The prognosis for children with lissencephaly varies depending on the malformation. Many individuals remain in a 3-5 month developmental level, while others may appear to have near normal intelligence and development. Some children with lissencephaly will be able to roll over, sit, reach for objects, and smile socially. Aspiration and respiratory disease are the most common causes of illness or death.[11] In the past, life expectancy ...
14:03 < kanzure> ... was said to be around two years of age. However, with advances in seizure control, and treatments for respiratory illness, most children live well beyond that age."
14:04 < kanzure> "With other advances in therapy, and the broader availability of services and equipment, some children with lissencephaly are able to walk with varying degrees of assistance and to perform other functions once thought too advanced."
14:07 < fenn> i've been going through the "congenital malformations and deformations of the nervous system - brain - other" template on wikipedia; haven't found anything with a reduction in neuron count yet
14:08 < eudoxia> YIL: koalas have smooth brains, among a bunch of other really sad stuff that makes them evolutionary dead ends
14:08 < fenn> their neoteny will save them
14:08 < fenn> koalas will outlast the amish
14:09 < eudoxia> i very much doubt humans care enough about cute animals
14:10 < jrayhawk> they can be turned into special eucalyptus-infused paperclips
14:11 < fenn> hello koala paperclip set, for jupiter brains of all ages
14:11 < kanzure> .wik microgyrus
14:12 < fenn> yoleaux is dead; long live yoleaux!
14:12 < kanzure> "A microgyrus is an area of the cerebral cortex that includes only four cortical layers instead of six."
14:13 < eudoxia> what happened to all the bots in this channel
14:13 < eudoxia> gradstudentbot, yoleaux, paperbot
14:13 < fenn> cryptoviridium, a plague that affects IRC bots
14:14 < eudoxia> also the gnusha bot
14:19 < fenn> "Approximately 1 out of 50 children (2%) are said to have the characteristics of megalencephaly in the general population."
14:20 < fenn> wow
14:20 < kanzure> "week 7: The brain divides into 5 vesicles, including the early telencephalon."
14:22 < kanzure> "At the five-vesicle stage, the forebrain separates into the diencephalon (thalamus, hypothalamus, subthalamus, epithalamus, and pretectum) and the endbrain (cerebrum). The cerebrum consists of the cerebral cortex, underlying white matter, and the basal ganglia. By 5 weeks in utero, it is visible as a single portion toward the front of the fetus. At 8 weeks in utero, the forebrain splits into the left and right cerebral hemispheres. When ...
14:22 < kanzure> ... the embryonic forebrain fails to divide the brain into two lobes, it results in a condition known as holoprosencephaly."
14:22 < kanzure> okay.. so the problem would have to happen between week 5 and 8.
14:27 < kanzure> "Autosomal recessive primary microcephaly (MCPH) is a neuro-developmental disorder that causes a great reduction in brain growth in utero. MCPH is hypothesized to be a primary disorder of neurogenic mitosis, leading to reduced neuron number. Hence, MCPH proteins are likely to be important components of cellular pathways regulating human brain size. At least six genes can cause this disorder and four of these have recently been ...
14:27 < kanzure> ... identified: autosomal recessive primary microcephaly 1 (MCPH1), abnormal spindle-like, microcephaly associated (ASPM), cyclin-dependent kinase 5 regulatory subunit-associated protein 2 (CDK5RAP2) and centromere protein J (CENPJ). Whereas aberration of ASPM is the most common cause of MCPH, MCPH1 patients can be more readily diagnosed by the finding of increased numbers of ‘prophase-like cells’ on routine cytogenetic ...
14:27 < kanzure> ... investigation. Three MCPH proteins are centrosomal components but have apparently diverse roles that affect mitosis. There is accumulating evidence that evolutionary changes to the MCPH genes have contributed to the large brain size seen in primates, particularly humans. The aim of this article is to review what has been learnt about the rare condition primary microcephaly and the information this provides about normal brain growth."
14:27 < kanzure> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1471491406001365
14:27 < kanzure> .title
14:28 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20What%20primary%20microcephaly%20can%20tell%20us%20about%20brain%20growth%0A%20.pdf
14:28 < ParahSailin> what does that mean to be an evolutionary dead end
14:29 < kanzure> well, practically similar article:
14:29 < kanzure> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2816178/
14:29 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016%2Fj.tig.2009.09.011
14:29 < kanzure> fuck you paperbot
14:30 < kanzure> "There has been a clear increase in relative brain size from monkeys to apes to humans. In just 3–5 million years the human brain increased threefold in size compared with that of our closest primate relatives. This has led to a search for the genes (and the changes within those genes) responsible for this expansion. The MCPH genes were obvious candidates as mutations affect brain size exclusively, and evidence of positive Darwinian ...
14:30 < kanzure> ... selection was found in the monkey–primate–human evolutionary tree for MCPH1, 3, 5 and 6 [1,57]."
14:34 < kanzure> "Making bigger brains-the evolution of neural-progenitor-cell division" http://www.seco-project.eu/files/publications/fish%2008%20j%20cell%20sci.pdf
14:36 < kanzure> "Microcephaly is a disorder of fetal brain growth; individuals with microcephaly have small brains and almost always have mental retardation, although rare individuals with mild microcephaly (-3 SD) and normal intelligence have been reported."
14:36 < kanzure> "MCPH is associated with a simplification of the cerebral cortical gyral pattern and a slight reduction in the volume of the white matter, consistent with the small size of the brain, but the architecture of the brain in general is normal, with no evidence of a neuronal migration defect (review by Woods et al., 2005)."
14:37 < kanzure> "Although Qazi and Reed (1975) stated that carriers of primary microcephaly have diminished intelligence, Pattison et al. (2000) noted that this had not been seen in any of the families in with linkage to specific MCPH loci had been reported."
14:37 < kanzure> this is from http://www.omim.org/entry/251200
14:41 < kanzure> http://smithlhhsb122.wikispaces.com/file/view/1-s2_0-S1568786410004118-gr1.jpg/417449352/1-s2_0-S1568786410004118-gr1.jpg
14:44 < kanzure> weird how nobody counts neurons
14:44 < kanzure> especially in cases of abnormal brain development
14:51 < fenn> so "microcephaly" means any of 50 distinct disorders
14:51 < kanzure> "primary microcephaly" in particular
14:51 < kanzure> from eric hunting: "Anything that even hints at the redundancy of astronauts is anathema. I've long been pointing out how there are more active astronauts than ever in history and, right now, the only one people in the US can readily name is Canadian... Yet people--kids especially--know the rovers and probes. Hot Wheels makes toys of them--not to mention countless model kit manufacturers. We have movie franchises like Pixar's Cars and ...
14:51 < kanzure> ... Planes. Rockets could readily be next. Recently, NASA has started to catch-on but old traditions die hard and their PR efforts remain notoriously half-assed, as demonstrated by their weird attempts at creating MMOs."
14:52 < fenn> but "microcephalin" is a gene regulating brain cell division in the forebrain
14:52 < kanzure> "Especially when compared to ESA's equivalent project, Rollin' Justin, which has such fast actuators and motion control it can catch objects in free-flight, juggle, and play badminton. It also has walking legs under development.... http://www.sciencespacerobots.com/2014pics/rollin-justin-robot.jpg It never occurred to them that, perhaps, they might make a 'tele-puppet' version of it that could move faster and be used like an ...
14:52 < kanzure> ... entertainment robot. It's been pretty-much a prop as it is."
14:52 < kanzure> don't question biologists and their name choices the whole system might collapse if you do
14:53 < fenn> well this is why i dismissed the "microcephalin" keyword in the first place
14:53 < fenn> even though it was the thing we should have been looking at all along
14:55 < kanzure> that part about normal intelligence in some rare cases of (primary?) microcephaly are a little strange.. don't know what to do about that.
14:55 < kanzure> maybe those weren't primary microcephaly
14:57 < fenn> how did they define normal?
14:57 < fenn> there's a big difference between "being able to feed yourself with a fork" and "IQ = 100"
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14:58 < kanzure> i don't have a good grasp of iq 10 through 70
14:59 < fenn> well forrest gump is IQ = 75 (supposedly)
14:59 < kanzure> well he's practically a genius
14:59 < fenn> he's definitely capable of eating with a fork at least
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14:59 < kanzure> he can speak and tell stories
14:59 < fenn> drive a boat
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15:01 < fenn> wtf
15:02 < fenn> "I'm surprised no one has called Jenny a rapist" are these people serious
15:05 < kanzure> "We have movie franchises like Pixar's Cars and Planes. Rockets could readily be next." needs to be satellites and space colonies.
15:07 < fenn> Adults can harvest vegetables, repair furniture IQ = 60 Adults can do domestic work IQ = 50
15:08 < kanzure> damn
15:08 < kanzure> still pretty high up there
15:08 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLHx4GAVAkA
15:08 < fenn> some random person said "in the real world a person with an IQ of 75 has difficulty learning how to tie their shoes and tell time."
15:09 < kanzure> probably there's trouble measuring profound mental disability
15:09 < fenn> well it can be hard to distinguish "i don't care about your test" vs "i don't understand your test"
15:10 < kanzure> and "i am hungry give me food" in squealy muscle spasm language
15:18 < kanzure> i can't figure out any real conclusions to draw from this
15:18 < kanzure> number of neurons may or may not matter, apparently
15:18 < fenn> to draw from what
15:18 < fenn> MCPH1 mutations?
15:18 < kanzure> from those reports of primary microcephaly
15:19 < kanzure> right
15:19 < fenn> "a direct link between these particular genes and either cognition or intelligence has not been clearly established."
15:19 < fenn> 2006 ish
15:20 < kanzure> i have had trouble stating the exact competing ideas here
15:20 < kanzure> number of neurons is easy to express
15:20 < kanzure> the other one is something like "there is a particuar macrocircuit that either only humans have or that only humans have a particular set of modifications to that allows them to make better use of their brain"
15:21 < kanzure> *at least one particular macrocircuit
15:22 < kanzure> and then there's "every detail of the brain that hasn't been eliminated by loss-of-function studies or knockouts are equally important to human cognitive abilities"
15:22 < kanzure> ("equally important" is me being snarky and unfair)
15:24 < fenn> how about 6 layer cortex; that seems pretty important but doesn't directly relate to number of neurons
15:24 < fenn> and doesn't involve "macrocircuits" whatever that is
15:25 < kanzure> haha, wait let's get macrocircuits done first
15:25 < fenn> nooo
15:26 < fenn> i hate being forced to learn false ontologies
15:26 < kanzure> so are you trying to argue for the only preserved motifs between brains are microcircuits?
15:26 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalamocortical_radiations
15:27 < superkuh> Rodolfo R Llinás book, "I of the Vortex: From Neurons to Self" has many interesting opinions on these topics.
15:27 < fenn> are thalamocortical radiations "macrocircuits"?
15:28 < kanzure> superkuh: i have been trying to explain macrocircuits/circuits to fenn... wikipedia does not have a good article on the subject.
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15:29 < fenn> "Computational neuroscientists are particularly interested in thalamocortical loops because they represent a structure that is disproportionally larger and more complex in humans than other mammals"
15:29 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Central_nervous_system_pathways
15:29 < fenn> someone could sort through all this comparative anatomy for their entire life and never get anywhere
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15:32 < kanzure> well, yes, you need to do something with the comparison-derived knowledge
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15:40 < kanzure> "paleoneurology" pffft
15:47 < kanzure> "The complete genome sequence of a Neanderthal from the Altai Mountains" (2014) http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7481/abs/nature12886.html
15:49 < kanzure> Transcriptomic insights into human brain evolution: acceleration, neutrality, heterochrony http://www.metu.edu.tr/~msomel/pdf/Curr%20Opin%20Genet%20Dev%202014%20Somel.pdf
15:49 < kanzure> page 2 table 1 has some comparisons to chimp brain
15:49 < kanzure> and it's referenced
15:52 < kanzure> "It was long suggested that a simple shift in life-history extending the infantile period could have aided rapid cultural accumulation across human generations, by allowing more time for learning [1,61,62,97]. The transcriptomic results imply that the early period of high synaptic plasticity, when learning is most rapid [93] (reviewed in [98–100]), was particularly extended. Human heterochrony is therefore not ubiquitous, but alters ...
15:52 < kanzure> ... synaptic maturation in a specific brain region."
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15:58 < kanzure> "Can the cognitive differences between humans and our closest primate relatives be explained in terms of a scalable cortical architecture? We bring to bear diverse sources of evidence to argue that the answers to each of these questions — with some judicious qualifications — are in the affirmative." http://www.aaai.org/ocs/index.php/AAAI/AAAI12/paper/viewFile/5093/5299
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16:05 < kanzure> "nymchinsky"
16:07 < kanzure> "cortical arealization" really...
16:09 < kanzure> "Transistor count is sometimes given as a proxy for the performance of a new processor chip, but every computer scientist knows it is not the number of transistors or even the number of logic gates that matter, but how those components are organized. The reason transistor count is at all interesting is that processor architectures are modular and highly scalable. Registers, caches, processor cores and SIMD lanes all scale — more is ...
16:09 < kanzure> ... generally better"
16:09 < kanzure> "The PAX-6 gene has the capability that if expressed in a fruit fly it builds a fruit-fly eye and if expressed in a mouse it builds a mouse eye (Callaerts, Halder, and Gehring 1997)."
16:11 < kanzure> "While more cortical columns and more densely packed neurons in layers could help to accelerate some computations, the biggest potential gains would likely come from an increase in the depth of combinatorial circuits that can be constructed from the neural substrate. The human brain can’t implement stacks or recursion as we commonly do on von Neumann machines. Instead it must replicate structures and maintain information on the stack, ...
16:11 < kanzure> ... perhaps using some form of what O’Reilly calls “limited variable binding” (O’Reilly 2006)."
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16:16 < kanzure> "How could such differences confer computational advantages that might account for the observed cognitive differences between the species? Certainly a larger working memory and support for representing more complicated relationships might be at play, but we suggest here that the key is the ability to realize deeper combinatorial circuits which would enable us to handle longer chains of inference, deeper recursive embedding, and nested ...
16:16 < kanzure> ... representational structures. In general, a deeper stack, whether this be realized in software or by replicating cortical structures, allows for deeper procedural nesting and richer representations."
16:16 < kanzure> "The mystery of homo sapiens’ dominance might also be resolved by appeal to our strong social instinct. Noting that apes have the capacity for abstract thinking and evidence localizing such function in the prefrontal cortex, O’Reilly (2006) suggests the possibility that the critical difference may be due not to the hardware, despite its being quantitatively superior, but to “the motivations that drive us to spend so much time ...
16:16 < kanzure> ... learning and communicating what we have learned to others.” And recent evidence (Shultz, Opie, and Atkinson 2011) supports the hypothesis that social behavior is deeply rooted in genetics and thus a “species has to operate with whatever social structure it inherits.”"
16:22 < kanzure> O'Reilly 2006 is http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Biologically%20based%20computational%20models%20of%20high-level%20cognition.pdf
16:37 < fenn> man, the only animal that gives a flying fuck if someone is wrong on the internet
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16:50 < kanzure> "This system can be more flexible than other more static neural circuits because the gating signal can be completely independent of the content that is being gated. However, unlike a memory buffer in a standard digital computer, the PFC areas must learn slowly over time to be able to represent all the things that they can maintain, and other areas of the brain must similarly learn to decode both the content and role meaning of these PFC ...
16:50 < kanzure> ... representations. Thus, the dynamic variable binding operates in the context of the relatively more static learned..."
16:50 < kanzure> "The dynamic gating mechanisms work more like a post-office, with the basal ganglia reading the zip code of which PFC stripe to update, whereas the PFC cares more about the contents of the package. Furthermore, the binary rulelike representations in the PFC are more symbol-like. Thus, perhaps a fuller understanding of this synthesis of analog and digital computation will finally unlock the mysteries of human intelligence."
16:50 < kanzure> yes.. like a post office.... right.
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17:06 < fenn> brain analogies are terrible
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17:09 < fenn> .wik tectospinal
17:09 < fenn> .wik spinotectal
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18:25 < kanzure> "The top mosty likely existential threats, including "what the universe could do to Earth" would leave it more habitable than Mars. If "lifeboat for species" is the goal, then going to Mars is a solution in that direction but not a particularly good one - building an underground colony in Antarctica or a self-sustainable isolated underwater colony would achieve the goal better, be reachable quicker, and at a lower cost. However, ...
18:25 < kanzure> ... 'lifeboat for species' right now is not an explicit end goal for anyone who would be capable to fund that."
18:32 < fenn> underground _and_ in antarctica
18:33 < fenn> because one or the other isn't difficult enough
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18:41 < kanzure> "The BLS says the median salary for a lawyer is $112k."
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19:47 < kanzure> don't gorillas do sign language?
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19:55 < fenn> yes
19:56 < fenn> signs such as "give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you,"
19:56 < fenn> you get the gist but not the grammar
19:58 < kanzure> that doesn't sound too bad
19:58 < fenn> "man bites dog" and "dog bites man" use the same set of words but because of their ordering will be understood by speakers of English as denoting very different meanings.
19:59 < fenn> weren't you reading the Nim Chimpsky article
19:59 < kanzure> english grammar sucks anyway
19:59 < fenn> sucks it does
19:59 < kanzure> they should be teaching gorilla einstein something like lojban
20:00 < kanzure> what's the lojban of hand signing?
20:00 < fenn> ASL :
20:00 < kanzure> https://www.zombiehunters.org/wiki/images/HandSignals.jpg
20:01 < fenn> that's not a particularly expressive language
20:03 < fenn> it's totally possible to conjugate verbs in a sign language too, obviating a lot of the grammar syntax ambiguity shown by apes
20:04 < kanzure> i wonder about listening
20:07 < kanzure> "Analysis of the gorilla genome has cast doubt on the idea that the rapid evolution of hearing genes gave rise to language in humans, as it also occurred in gorillas.[64]"
20:08 < fenn> "hearing genes"
20:08 < fenn> gonna settle in for a relaxing night of hi-fi listening, put on my hearing genes and sip on a mug of cocoa
20:09 < kanzure> pfft the paper for the whole genome sequence of some gorilla has only been cited 200 times
20:10 < fenn> citation is overrated
20:11 < fenn> what. "ASL users have never been counted by the American census."
20:12 < fenn> finding it hard to believe there are not more than 100,000 ASL users
20:13 < fenn> or 500k even
20:14 < fenn> lol "people from the South sign slower than people in the North"
20:14 < fenn> the heat, it burns
20:15 < kanzure> people in the south type slower too
20:16 < kanzure> wait...
20:16 < fenn> maybe it's just time dilation from the faster rotation of the earth at lower latitudes
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20:28 < kanzure> "religious follow-up with venture capital people" https://www.dropbox.com/s/axgpmehewplt7hs/Screenshot%202014-12-02%2019.39.10.png?dl=0
20:34 < fenn> looks very efficient and confidence boosting
20:34 < fenn> praise capitalism
20:35 < fenn> 28 steps to "yes"
20:35 < fenn> 28 simple steps anyone can do to raise money
20:36 < kanzure> right, so that's actually repeated 100x
20:36 < kanzure> at minimum
20:37 < kanzure> most initial rounds are anywhere from 20-100 commits
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20:37 < kanzure> so you have to consider the close rate... so uh, much more than 20. in parallel.
20:39 < fenn> what does "redlines" mean?
20:39 < fenn> is that just the terms of the contract?
20:41 < kanzure> you send .docx files back and forth
20:42 < kanzure> to propose particular wording of things
20:55 < kanzure> http://abcnews.go.com/Weird/wireStory/100-brains-missing-university-texas-27322422
20:56 < kanzure> "The University of Texas at Austin is missing about 100 brains - about half of the specimens the university had in a collection of brains preserved in jars of formaldehyde."
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06:27 < chris_99> nmz787, are you about per chance?
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07:17 < kanzure> hrmph
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08:40 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_language
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08:52 < archels> this seems to be quite active http://transhumanity.net/
08:53 < archels> wonder who's behind it--this Foundation they speak of in their about page
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10:13 < kanzure> you guys are boring
10:21 < eudoxia> well what have you been doing that's less boring
10:21 < yoleaux> 29 Nov 2014 22:08Z eudoxia: someone linked to your page here http://nextbigfuture.com/2014/11/dna-nanotechnology-breaking-through.html
10:24 < eudoxia> cool
10:29 < chris_99> i got a price for fabrication of microfluidic chips that ranges from $500 - $1500 depending on the fab process/how deep they etch, apparently they go down to a 5um process
10:35 < kanzure> yoleaux is back
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10:36 < eudoxia> we'll see
10:36 < eudoxia> .wa 200lbs in kg
10:36 < yoleaux> convert 200 lb (pounds) to kilograms: 90.72 kg (kilograms); Additional conversions: 14 stone 4 pounds; 0.1 sh tn (short tons); 90718 grams; Comparison as mass: ~1.3 × typical standard adult human male mass (~70 kg); Corresponding quantities: Weight w of a body from w = mg:: 890 N (newtons): 8.896×10⁷ dynes: 90718 ponds: 200 lbf (pounds-force): 6.2 slugf (slugs-force)
10:37 < eudoxia> finally
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10:43 < ginkgo_mole> kanzure
10:44 < kanzure> sup
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10:50 < nmz787_i> chris_99: there's a place in ireland that might be cheap for you
10:50 < chris_99> oooh linky?
10:55 < nmz787_i> https://www.tyndall.ie/content/wafer-fabrication
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10:56 < nmz787_i> err, I guess this more specifically https://www.tyndall.ie/content/mems-0
10:56 < nmz787_i> it just links to enquiry@tyndall.ie
10:56 < chris_99> cheers, to start with i'll probably just order those ones from thailand, but in the future that could be useful
10:56 < nmz787_i> but I had been chatting with a guy there months back
10:56 < chris_99> oh nice
10:57 < nmz787_i> also I recommend posting on linkedin, they have some relatively active microfluidics forums
10:57 < nmz787_i> lots of folks post links to suppliers, and lots of suppliers drop their company names/contact info
10:57 < chris_99> oh heh, i've not used linkedin for that kind of stuff heh
10:57 < chris_99> nice
10:58 < chris_99> oh i was gonna ask you before, so the supplier says YM-01 can approximately contain 70-700 uL for 10 and 100 um depth, respectively.
10:58 < chris_99> ideally i'd probably want the lowest depth i assume
10:58 < chris_99> so 10um
10:58 < nmz787_i> your yeast are prob 30 um
10:58 < chris_99> no , 5um
10:58 < nmz787_i> consider clogging?
10:59 < chris_99> oh actually wiki says ' typically measuring 3–4 µm in diameter, although some yeasts can reach over 40 µm '
10:59 < chris_99> yes good point
10:59 < chris_99> so 100um would be more sane?
10:59 < nmz787_i> 'Yeast size can vary greatly depending on the species, typically measuring 3–4 µm in diameter, although some yeasts can reach over 40 µm'
10:59 < nmz787_i> from .wik yeast
10:59 < nmz787_i> oh
10:59 < nmz787_i> derp
10:59 < chris_99> heh
10:59 < nmz787_i> yea
11:00 < chris_99> i'll probably order 3 different chips
11:00 < chris_99> to see how they compare
11:01 < nmz787_i> well to be fair the ref for that quote isnt about saccharomyces
11:01 < chris_99> oh yeah
11:01 < chris_99> hmm
11:01 < nmz787_i> http://www.probrewer.com/library/filtration/brewery-filter-applications/
11:02 < chris_99> "S. cerevisiae cells are round to ovoid, 5–10 micrometres in diameter"
11:02 < chris_99> so maybe 50um slide would be ok
11:02 < nmz787_i> what is DE?
11:02 < chris_99> just waiting for it to load
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11:03 < chris_99> hmm no idea
11:03 < nmz787_i> the only bad thing about going too tall is focus
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11:03 < nmz787_i> if you're trying to get images quickly
11:03 < nmz787_i> otherwise they would be distributed through the Z
11:03 < nmz787_i> and you'd need to let them settle for some time
11:03 < nmz787_i> (this would also allow diffusive mixing)
11:03 < chris_99> yeah, so i want as small Z as possible
11:04 < chris_99> but not too small to clog
11:04 < nmz787_i> unless you had a thick enough depth of field/focus... or maybe did some holographic imaging
11:04 < chris_99> heh, as in take photos at different angles?
11:06 < nmz787_i> no like those lens-free papers we were talking about some time ago
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11:06 < chris_99> oh
11:07 < nmz787_i> maybe this http://www.pnas.org/content/108/18/7296.full
11:09 < chris_99> that sounds cool
11:09 < chris_99> it does sound like they vary the angle of light?
11:10 < chris_99> that seems v. clever
11:12 < nmz787_i> chris_99: pm
11:12 < nmz787_i> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3521054/
11:12 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1117%2F1.JBO.17.12.126018
11:13 < nmz787_i> ncbi has that http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3521054/pdf/JBO-017-126018.pdf
11:13 < chris_99> cheers
11:13 < nmz787_i> oh, paperbot is now sneaky
11:13 < chris_99> oh it just grabs stuff?
11:21 < chris_99> i saw krasnow did a thing on laser mics interesting, didn't seem to work too well with the double-glazing alas
11:21 < chris_99> he thought a photomultiplier could be useful, and aim the laser at a painting in the room
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11:40 < delinquentme> any chance someone might have an estimated cost on an arcgis server?
11:48 < nmz787_i> isn't that just a normal server running a spatial dbms?
11:48 < nmz787_i> so cost of hardware + arcgis dbms license for # of users, etc
11:52 < nmz787_i> interesting concept for testing chip-scale devices http://www.swtest.org/swtw_library/2000proc/pdf/S04_Chan.pdf
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11:55 < nmz787_i> huh, this is quite informative of the fab flow process http://www.ntktech.com/admin/upload/files/htccpkggeneraldg_reva.pdf
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11:56 < nmz787_i> ooo, but then type 'BERIED CONDUCTOR LAYER'
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11:59 < nmz787_i> "Notably, Khurana et al., demonstrated that photoluminescence emission coincides with the switching of a transistor, thereby showing that, in addition to failure analysis, the phenomenon can also be used for device debug and circuit design. "
12:00 < nmz787_i> I guess it would be easier to fab LEDs for bio gene-induction based on light
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12:22 < kanzure> "For those of you interested in what the NYDFS is looking through, all 3,746 public comments are now available: http://www.dfs.ny.gov/legal/vcrf_comments.htm "
12:27 < eudoxia> kanzure: are those about that bill that would have regulated bitcoin in NYC?
12:27 < kanzure> these are comments from the public regarding the proposed "bitlicense"
12:28 < eudoxia> right, that's what i meant i think
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12:57 < nmz787_i> lapd.evidence.com
12:57 < nmz787_i> .title
12:57 < yoleaux> DFS: Comments Regarding the Proposed Virtual Currency Regulatory Framework
12:57 < nmz787_i> .title http://lapd.evidence.com
12:58 < yoleaux> EVIDENCE.COM
12:58 < nmz787_i> 'Forgot your username or password?'
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13:21 < kanzure> "Steve Coles, MD, GRG founder, experienced cardiac arrest in Scottsdale AZ at 8:50, Dec 3, about 45 min ago. Scottsdale is where Alcor is, and Steve had traveled there last week to be close to the cryonics foundation."
13:21 < kanzure> "Steve died very peacefully of pneumonia, secondary to his pancreatic cancer, and cryopreservation was begun immediately. His wife has been present throughout the process, and has been a great support to all."
13:36 < eudoxia> it's good to know he received a prompt cryopreservation
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13:41 < kanzure> yeah that's like a happy ending to a fairy tale
13:41 < kanzure> "and they were all cryopreserved in a timely manner, the end"
13:42 < eudoxia> many people have unfortunately not made it so it's always good to hear
13:43 < kanzure> did i ever tell you about a friend of mine who was building these cryopreservation inflation suits
13:43 < kanzure> so that on impact in a terrible accident you would be cryopreserved within a few minutes?
13:44 < drazak> I guess I was old and had lived a good life and had not a whole lot left to complete, I wouldn't really see the point of cryopreservation for myself
13:44 < kanzure> have fun being dead dude
13:44 < eudoxia> kanzure: no, but please tell me more
13:45 < kanzure> maybe later. i don't have details in working memory at the moment.
13:46 < eudoxia> do you have a source for the cryo bits? the GRG website doesn't say anything, and i can't find anything on the usual sources
13:46 < eudoxia> i.e. longecity, exi mailing list
13:47 < kanzure> grg mailing list
13:48 < kanzure> for steve coles? if that's what you mean
13:48 < kanzure> as for the cryopreservation-on-impact that was either in person or over the phone
13:48 < eudoxia> yes, thanks
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14:06 < archels> kanzure: no record of that transhumanity.net website?
14:18 < kanzure> 15:40 < superkuh> This is one example of it: http://transhumanity.net/articles/entry/digital-nootropics
14:18 < kanzure> 00:42 < eleitl> oh, by the way, what do you think of latest transhumanity.net content.
14:18 < kanzure> 02:15 < eleitl> archels, if a thinking person goes to http://transhumanity.net/ what would she think?
14:18 < kanzure> 19:21 < kanzure> ughh http://transhumanity.net/articles/entry/were-offering-certificate-programs-in-transhumanism
14:18 < kanzure> 21:19 <@kanzure> http://transhumanity.net/articles/entry/diy-grinding-get-in-here-transhumanism-is-a-verb-not-a-club
14:19 < kanzure> their landing page is pretty bad
14:19 < kanzure> looks like hplusmagazine
14:19 < kanzure> "solar dresses"
14:20 < kanzure> i hate all of you
14:20 < superkuh> I don't remember that.
14:20 < kanzure> eh i didn't look at context in your case, just checking for archels
14:21 < kanzure> although i do like how eugen leitl had already told archels about the site :)
14:21 < superkuh> Maybe a horrible article about binaural beats and low power magnetic "stimulation" I did not like.
14:21 < superkuh> My best guess (even if it is not relevant to the current topic of conversation).
14:22 < kanzure> 15:37 < superkuh> Guh. What is it with people who call themselves transhumanists believing in weak magnetic field effects and Persinger's bullshit?
14:22 < kanzure> yep...
14:23 < kanzure> 15:39 < superkuh> These guys think that ultra-low strength magnetic fields, microgauss, can somehow interact with the brain through stochastic resonances (or some shit, they never talk mechanism).
14:30 < kanzure> https://www.gen9bio.com/resources/g-prize/ "This year, in order to further spark innovation in synthetic biology, two 500,000 base pair prizes will be awarded, one to a pre-commercial startup and one to an academic/public-benefit organization, for a total of 1 million base pairs of synthesized DNA. The winning teams can select to have their DNA sent as any length from 400bp to 10kbp. The submission deadline is midnight EST, 31 December ...
14:30 < kanzure> ... 2014."
14:30 < archels> kanzure: oh, nice. I wonder where eleitl got it from...
14:30 < kanzure> eleitl is perhaps more "plugged in" than i am
14:30 < kanzure> probably has more of the european transhumanist community than i do
14:31 < kanzure> seeing as how he's been around in germany since forever
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14:33 < kanzure> ""Ryan Bethencourt seized his opportunity back in 2008. That made him an outlier: most people, after all, were seizing pink slips, not opportunities. But while the Great Recession wiped out billions in home equity and blew up companies by the score, it also freed up plenty of hard assets. In simple terms, you could buy a lot of expensive stuff for a song. And that’s just what Bethencourt and his pal, molecular biologist and fellow ...
14:33 < kanzure> ... DIYbio enthusiast, John Schloendorn, did.""
14:33 < kanzure> .title https://medium.com/@oreillyradar/dispatches-from-the-bleeding-edge-of-biotech-7913ebb58991
14:34 < yoleaux> Dispatches from the bleeding edge of biotech — Medium
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14:39 < archels> kanzure: could it potentially be the case that content has vanished from diyhpl.us or am I just doing it wrong
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14:50 < kanzure> archels: which content are you looking for?
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15:01 < archels> something about neuromorphic integrated circuits
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15:15 < kanzure> oh interesting, i don't actually remember that
15:15 < kanzure> more details pls?
15:16 < kanzure> format of content?
15:16 < kanzure> temporal coordinates?
15:17 < archels> maybe 2-3 months ago
15:17 < archels> I just signed up via the web and created a page
15:18 < kanzure> on the wiki?
15:19 < archels> yep
15:19 < kanzure> https://github.com/kanzure/diyhpluswiki/commits/master
15:20 < archels> yeah so I didn't actually go through git (maybe I should have)
15:20 < kanzure> web interface is just another git interface
15:20 < kanzure> maybe i lost commits
15:21 < kanzure> jrayhawk: have any clever tricks for checking if i lost archels' commits? maybe i should just read through reflog in /srv/ikiwiki/ or something?
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15:33 < nmz787> paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2661257
15:34 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1145%2F2661229.2661257
15:37 < nmz787> they have it but it's a big one at 14mb http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/Rendering_Volumetric_Haptic_Shapes_in_Mid-Air_using_Ultrasound.pdf
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15:38 < nmz787> "Weighted Tikhonov Regularization"
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16:24 < jrayhawk> yeah, git status, reflog, and git fsck
16:26 < kanzure> dangling commit 53730e797bfaed1d0b94100e9774c35e6a068296 but 76def5c21288cd594b97aa465b950023f114ef85 is in master and seems to be equivaent anyway
16:26 < kanzure> not seeing anything else, reflog is pretty blank (probably because i did a recent (a few months ago?) rebuildrepo)
16:34 < kanzure> archels: did you see yesterday backlog re: macrocircuits, neural circuits, non-microcircuit circuits in human brain and do you agree/disagree about their existence
16:36 < archels> I think right now it relates to whether you're willing to see much biological in deep learning
16:37 < archels> as to claims about cortical columns and the 'canonical cortical microcircuit', I'm not so sure
16:38 < kanzure> "Alternatively, "deep learning" has been characterized as "just a buzzword for",[5] or "largely a rebranding of", neural networks.[6]"
16:38 < archels> yeah
16:38 < archels> deep learning is pretty cool, but it's a lot closer to GOFAI than neuroscience
16:39 < kanzure> but but my question was about circuits
16:40 < archels> what's a circuit?
16:40 < kanzure> hmm, well i thought it was a widely accepted term in neuroscience but i strongly suspect it's not if you're unaware of it
16:41 < archels> it's so widely used as to have become meaningless
16:42 < kanzure> fiber tracts?
16:43 < archels> better, because that at least defines a scale of analysis
16:45 < archels> so, do I agree about the existence of fibre tracts? :)
16:45 < kanzure> yes
16:45 < kanzure> that is a good question
16:45 < kanzure> haha page 6 figure 4 http://arxiv.org/vc/arxiv/papers/1008/1008.5161v1.pdf "it's so simple!!!" (well, maybe it is)
16:48 < kanzure> although i have to admit the feature extraction salience vector stuff from deep learning is inticing
16:53 < archels> kanzure: I think your question basically pertains to the complete inability of contemporary neuroscience to integrate across levels of description
16:53 < archels> we can do large-scale mapping of the fibre bundles, we can poke single neurons and model them to some degree
16:53 < archels> inbetween there? mostly void
17:01 < kanzure> that is very interesting
17:01 < kanzure> that's a potential paper i think
17:01 < kanzure> refuting the prior literature about neural circuits
17:02 < archels> more a rant than a paper, perhaps :)
17:03 < kanzure> for example,
17:03 < kanzure> page 2 figure 1 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Cognitive%20consilience:%20Primate%20non-primary%20neuroanatomical%20circuits%20underlying%20cognition%20-%202011.pdf
17:03 < kanzure> these are not microcircuits afaik
17:05 < kanzure> oops re: http://arxiv.org/vc/arxiv/papers/1008/1008.5161v1.pdf i meant page 5 figure 4
17:06 < archels> yeah, that paper is symptomatic. we're just doing cartography, and badly at that
17:06 < ybit> .title
17:06 < ybit> oh yeah
17:06 < ybit> nm
17:06 < yoleaux> ybit: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page.
17:06 < archels> (not to be down on Van Hout Solari and Stoner, this is just the state of the field)
17:07 < kanzure> archels: so there's no large-scale circuitry of the brain, possibly encoded by genetics? if so, then would you agree the same is true about brain regions...?
17:07 < archels> the title of their paper is ironic though; there isn't much consilience going on in this ballpark
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17:08 < archels> hold up--I wanted to say that large-scale circuitry is actually one end of the resolution scale where we're reasonbly certain of things
17:08 < archels> or at least we know what to expect in terms of what's real and what the limits of the technology (such as DWI) are
17:09 < kanzure> and when you say large-scale... what scale is this? :)
17:11 < kanzure> ah, there are two versions of that arxiv paper. page 6 figure 4 was right.
17:11 < archels> oh, like that paper you posted about ape/human comparative neuroanatomy of the frontal lobe
17:12 < kanzure> but... that paper was doing comparative neuroanatomy of some circuits.
17:12 < kanzure> heh
17:12 < archels> exactly, because we defined 'circuits' = 'fibre tracts' a little earlier
17:13 < archels> < archels> what's a circuit?
17:13 < archels> < kanzure> fiber tracts?
17:13 < archels> so that makes sense for this level of description
17:14 < kanzure> are there any good overviews of known fiber tracts?
17:14 < kanzure> or reviews
17:20 < archels> a lot of it is textbook material, probably
17:20 < archels> I have to sleep, ttyl
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17:30 < kanzure> i wonder what methods those gorilla trainers were using for teaching american sign language
17:30 < kanzure> presumably gorilla brains do not have brain regions that help with language/grammar to the extent those appear in human brains
17:31 < kanzure> so instead of expecting a gorilla to pick up on grammar rules you would have to account for the lack of "grammar rule inference" by teaching these rules very explicitly
17:31 < kanzure> and how you communicate specific knowledge to a gorilla is likely to be different from "give them a bunch of samples of correct use"
17:32 < kanzure> maybe they would be able to use the rules if they were aware of their importance
17:32 < kanzure> *aware of them
17:37 < bbrittain> paperbot: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/02687039608248419
17:37 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1080%2F02687039608248419
17:39 < bbrittain> I've developed a reputation for being able to get papers thanks to paperbot
17:39 < bbrittain> this is bad
17:40 < kanzure> why is that bad?
17:41 < kanzure> hah it is bad because you are manually handling requests :)
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18:07 < kanzure> from the gen9bio "competition": ""Start-up Track: open to operating, pre-commercialization stage, privately-owned companies actively engaged in research & development who have successfully raised a minimum of $5M in equity investment""
18:14 < bbrittain> yea, how many bp were they giving away? 500k?
18:16 < kanzure> "The Saddest Moment" (about byzantine fault tolerance) http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/mickens/thesaddestmoment.pdf
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20:19 < Qfwfq> This is amazing, I'm not sure why today's the first I heard of it http://arxiv.org/abs/1312.6082
20:20 < Qfwfq> .title http://arxiv.org/abs/1312.6082
20:20 < yoleaux> [1312.6082] Multi-digit Number Recognition from Street View Imagery using Deep Convolutional Neural Networks
20:22 < Qfwfq> Context: https://blog.torproject.org/blog/call-arms-helping-internet-services-accept-anonymous-users
20:23 < Qfwfq> Context: https://support.cloudflare.com/hc/en-us/articles/203306930-Does-CloudFlare-block-Tor-
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21:04 < kanzure> "Methods of identifying general intelligence in extremely slow software"
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02:23 < archels> I was just randomly wondering: how hard is it for a cubesat/picosat to escape high earth orbit and venture out into deep space?
02:24 < archels> do you need a sizeable rocket engine, or can you do it using some clever gravitational tricks?
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03:17 < fenn> archels: http://clowder.net/hop/railroad/deltaveemap.html instead of wasting delta-v on circularizing your orbit, you can use it to increase the eccentricity instead and boost to hyperbolic transfer; this can be done with low-thrust high-isp propulsion, but there aren't yet any convenient large masses flying about in earth orbit to take advantage of
03:23 < archels> ah, alright
03:25 < fenn> this map is maybe more readable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-v_budget#Delta-vs_between_Earth.2C_Moon_and_Mars
03:25 < archels> so space exploration with cubesats is not going to be feasible for a while
03:26 < fenn> it's the same "distance" from geosynchronous transfer orbit (GTO) to circular geosynchronous orbit (GEO) as it is to lunar orbit
03:28 < fenn> i wouldn't say that small satellites have any particular disadvantage besides being able to do less
03:28 < fenn> either way you have to carry reaction mass and solar panels
03:29 < fenn> it's the same situation with migrating geese; the distance they fly depends on the energy density of fat
03:30 < archels> hehe, nice analogy
03:30 < fenn> it's about the same energy density and efficiency as jet fuel, so the range of a goose and a jet is similar
03:31 < archels> maybe a cubeset could in principle not carry enough propellant to escape earth's gravity well
03:31 < archels> even from HEO rather than LEO
03:32 < fenn> not according to any principles i know
03:33 < fenn> most "cubesat" or whatever don't have any propulsion at all though
03:35 < archels> yeah, I'm just wondering hypothetically
03:36 < chris_99> Can anyone recommend any cheap microfluidic places, the one i was looking at didn't have any chips < 100um deep, i've found the chip shop, but they don't seem to have any circular mixers in their catalogue
03:37 < archels> so let's say the delta-v budget is 2500 m/s... then according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsiolkovsky_rocket_equation we need an exhaust velocity of 1800 m/s to free a 10 kg cubesat with 7.5 kg propellant on board
03:38 < archels> https://www.rocket.com/cubesat
03:39 < archels> "picture coming soon"
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06:49 * ybit waves gm
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07:20 < ybit> http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/rein/
07:20 < ybit> .title
07:20 < yoleaux> Decision-Making in Stem Cells - Microsoft Research
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07:45 < kanzure> .title http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/08/22/brain.awu239
07:45 < yoleaux> A new case of complete primary cerebellar agenesis: clinical and imaging findings in a living patient | Brain
07:45 < kanzure> paperbot: http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/08/22/brain.awu239
07:45 < paperbot> ConnectionError: HTTPConnectionPool(host='libgen.org', port=80): Max retries exceeded with url: /scimag/librarian/form.php (Caused by : [Errno 104] Connection reset by peer) (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/adapters.py", line 375, in send)
07:48 < kanzure> archels: did you have any opinions about http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4010745/ ?
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08:16 < archels> interesting theory, if a bit hyperbolic
08:17 < archels> the stuff about RAM and ROM, learning to walk on two legs--that type of imprinting is certainly not unique to humans, but seems to be a general strategy of the (neo)cortex
08:18 < archels> "However, comparative neurological studies demonstrate that the human brain does not contain any structures that are distinctly unique to humans. Rather, the brain has undergone expansion of pre-existing structures that have re-wired their connectivity (Mantini and Corbetta, 2013; Smaers and Soligo, 2013), leading to the creation of novel network architectures in the brain."
08:18 < archels> these two sentences contradict one another
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08:32 < kanzure> good catch
08:32 < kanzure> i guess it really depends on what your definition of "unique to the human brain" is
08:33 < kanzure> clearly there is some particular phenotype that is occurring here that is broadly applicable across each of the 7 billion human brains
08:33 < kanzure> also, do the evolutionary biologists know whether language began happening before or after bipedalism?
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08:42 < archels> depends on their definition of language
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10:06 < ybit> .title http://research.microsoft.com/apps/mobile/ShowPage.aspx?page=/en-us/projects/SBT/
10:06 < yoleaux> Microsoft Research Mobile - Scenario-Based Tool for Biological Modeling
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11:46 < kanzure> i tried one of those readcube links and it crashed my browser :)
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12:19 < kanzure> hal finney talking about detweiler (hah) http://web.archive.org/web/20130513051807/http://finney.org/~hal/is_a_person.html
12:20 < kanzure> for-pay remailers http://web.archive.org/web/20130513050640/http://finney.org/~hal/pay_remail.html
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13:18 < kanzure> http://synbio.plos.org/2014/12/04/when-the-biohackers-arrive-at-igem/
13:18 < kanzure> why are community labs considered diybio
13:20 < juri_> because weekend warriors putting together kits are concidered hackers.
13:20 < kanzure> so what?
13:21 < kanzure> they are not called "non-institutionally-affiliated institutionally-affiliated hackers"
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13:37 < nmz787_i> community labs seem like diybio to me
13:37 < nmz787_i> only because diybio to me means something more to do with self-determination
13:38 < nmz787_i> than institutional affiliation
13:38 < juri_> just like 'hacker' means 'doing something undocumented to try and advance technology' to me.
13:41 < kanzure> juri_: your comments don't make any sense at all.
13:42 < kanzure> yes it's true that different people have a different definition of hacker. so what? what does that have to do with this conversation?
13:42 < juri_> different people have a different definition of diybio.
13:42 < kanzure> nmz787_i: self-determination is generally incompatible with institutional determination
13:42 < kanzure> juri_: apparently not though. they don't even redefine it. they just use it carelessly.
13:42 < juri_> just like 'hacker'.
13:43 < kanzure> huh? many people have proposed definitions of hacker
13:43 < juri_> and many use it horribly.
13:44 < kanzure> most of those horrible uses have been defined, documented and generally refuted
13:45 < juri_> its an older term, that's the only difference i see.
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13:46 < kanzure> anyway, let's assume that the word diybio has been hijacked
13:47 < kanzure> give me a name that is impossible to hijack
13:47 < kanzure> if you are unable to do this then you should be okay with me complaining about bad uses of words
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13:47 < kanzure> you can't have it both ways
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13:48 < juri_> oh, i'm good with you complaining.
13:49 < juri_> you asked a question. i answered it. :)
13:49 < kanzure> you answered it very poorly
13:50 < juri_> perhaps.
13:53 < nmz787_i> what is this site? (has some pdf that someone online posted) http://rghost.net/59411897
13:54 < kanzure> russian hate site
13:55 < kanzure> looks like something like megaupload or 0bin
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14:10 < nmz787_i> "The production of lime for Roman concrete, however, is much cleaner, requiring temperatures that are two-thirds of that required for making Portland cement."
14:10 < nmz787_i> .title http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2013/06/04/roman-concrete/
14:10 < yoleaux> To improve today’s concrete, do as the Romans did
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14:12 < nmz787_i> " The not-so-secret ingredient is volcanic ash, which Romans combined with lime to form mortar. They packed this mortar and rock chunks into wooden molds immersed in seawater. Rather than battle the marine elements, Romans harnessed saltwater and made it an integral part of the concrete."
14:12 < nmz787_i> "So why did the use of Roman concrete decrease? “As the Roman Empire declined, and shipping declined, the need for the seawater concrete declined,” said Jackson. “You could also argue that the original structures were built so well that, once they were in place, they didn’t need to be replaced.”"
14:13 < nmz787_i> "While Roman concrete is durable, Monteiro said it is unlikely to replace modern concrete because it is not ideal for construction where faster hardening is needed."
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14:14 < kragen> That's interesting!
14:14 < nmz787_i> "The research began with initial funding from King Abdullah University of Science and Technology in Saudi Arabia (KAUST), which launched a research partnership with UC Berkeley in 2008. Monteiro noted that Saudi Arabia has “mountains of volcanic ash” that could potentially be used in concrete."
14:15 < nmz787_i> oh kragen, I wanted to ask you if you knew about optical heterodyning?
14:15 < kragen> no. I've been interested in it and I might even have kragen-tolled about it
14:15 < kragen> but I don't know anything about it
14:16 < nmz787_i> something you said about RF heterodyning (about the nonlinear element) was similar to a comment someone else mentioned when I asked about this previously somewhere
14:16 < kragen> I mean the idea is simple enough: you feed a light wave through a nonlinear optical environment like the frequency-doubling crystals green lasers use, along with the signal you're trying to measure
14:17 < kragen> and you get back an electromagnetic signal of the difference between the frequencies
14:17 < kragen> but I don't even know if anyone has actually done this
14:17 < kragen> let alone what the best way to do it is
14:19 < kanzure> kragen: what would be the best way of estimating whether or not a certain amount of bandwidth or parallel-available-computation is required for human-like non-brain software to do human-like things?
14:19 < kragen> apparently someone has: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_heterodyne_detection
14:20 < kragen> first, understand how human-like brains do human-like things
14:20 < kragen> the rest is easy
14:20 < kanzure> suppose you know how... i am not sure that would help.
14:25 < nmz787_i> kragen: yeah been done... should be same conceptually (and maybe mathematically) but using different system (you said a good nonlinear electronic element was what?)
14:25 < nmz787_i> kragen: reason being, optical filters for IR are damn expensive
14:26 < nmz787_i> kragen: so if you want to make an IR camera cheaper... maybe you can heterodyne it down to a visible freq that a cheaper detector can capture
14:26 < kragen> a typical way to do infrared spectroscopy is with Fourier-transform spectroscopy to avoid the need for optical filters
14:26 < nmz787_i> using multiple stages of say 1000nm lasers for the line input
14:26 < kragen> that's an interesting idea
14:26 < kragen> although
14:26 < kragen> visible light is actually higher frequency than IR, not lower
14:27 < nmz787_i> well in ftir you get a spectrum from a mixed source.... with this idea you want just a single band of that mixed source for the image signal
14:27 < kragen> I said that even a diode works well for electronic heterodyning
14:27 < kragen> but I don't actually know what typical radios use for a mixer
14:27 < nmz787_i> oh, yeah, meant down in wavelength
14:27 < kragen> .wik mixer electronics
14:27 < yoleaux> "An electronic mixer is a device that combines two or more electrical or electronic signals into one or two composite output signals. There are two basic circuits that both use the term mixer, but they are very different types of circuits: additive mixers and multiplicative mixers." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_mixer
14:28 < kragen> "The most popular are Gilbert cell mixers, diode mixers, diode ring mixers (ring modulation) and switching mixers"
14:28 < nmz787_i> ftir would still be interesting, but the output of the ftir section would still need downconverted to visible for cheaper detection
14:28 < nmz787_i> i think
14:28 < nmz787_i> i actually have an old ftir at home
14:28 < kragen> you mean upconverted
14:28 < nmz787_i> err
14:28 < nmz787_i> yea
14:28 < nmz787_i> :P
14:29 < nmz787_i> again thinking wavelength
14:29 < nmz787_i> the FTIR is quite large, due in part to including a footlong HeNe laser
14:30 < kragen> so I have this vague idea that anything with a nonunity refractive index will ultimately have nonlinear behavior in the limit as field strengths grow
14:31 < kragen> like, in the limit of high field strength, the refractive index must eventually go away, drop to unity
14:31 < kragen> I don't know if that's really true
14:31 < kragen> but I mean things normally have indices because of higher permeability, which is due to mobile charge carriers, which can only move so far before they start to be metallic
14:32 < kragen> and so at some point your permeability drops to ε₀, right?
14:32 < kragen> all of this is maybe irrelevant since apparently the usual way to do optical heterodyning is to use the surface of your photodiode as the mixer
14:34 < nmz787_i> hmm
14:34 < nmz787_i> somewhat beyond me, especially since I am at work now and can't think about it fully
14:34 < nmz787_i> but I could see a piece of glass with a doping gradient
14:34 < nmz787_i> maybe being what you mean
14:35 < kragen> or even just a piece of glass
14:35 < kragen> maybe a piece of glass in a strong, rapidly varying electrical field
14:35 < kragen> I guess I should learn more about nonlinear optics
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16:17 < archels> OpenWorm have a new paper out http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fncom.2014.00137/full
16:18 < kanzure> .title
16:18 < yoleaux> Frontiers | OpenWorm: an open-science approach to modeling Caenorhabditis elegans | Frontiers in Computational Neuroscience
16:18 < kanzure> paperbot: http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journal/10.3389/fncom.2014.00137/full
16:18 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.3389%2Ffncom.2014.00137
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17:02 < ybit> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/heath/c93add4d88e6fef79889/raw/a550ea2aeacda975bdace12d0ff44985ceda800f/gistfile1.txt
17:03 < ybit> it isn't clear that this is 2% equity
17:04 < rkos> is papertbot working yet?
17:04 < ybit> paperbot: http://www.blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf
17:05 * ybit is just curious
17:05 < fenn> derp. i thought i had mirrored/backed up finney.org
17:09 < kanzure> looks like nobody did
17:09 < fenn> not sure what the motivation is for having "True Names"
17:10 < fenn> maybe gwern did http://lesswrong.com/lw/7kg/rationalist_sites_worth_archiving/
17:11 < kanzure> when someone dies, fucking archive their site
17:11 < kanzure> which reminds me.... steve coles.
17:11 < kanzure> grg.org
17:12 < kanzure> "Coles served as a visiting scientist for the Central Intelligence Agency's Office of Research and Development in Washington, D.C.[citation needed] and published with Aubrey de Grey, Leonid Gavrilov, and Jay Olshansky.[15] He was the treasurer of the Supercentenarian Research Foundation,[16] as well as co-founder and current system administrator of the Gerontology Research Group.[17]"
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17:30 < ParahSailin> the scrollback of esr in #lesswrong ranting about global warming being leftist creationism is pretty hilarious
17:31 < kanzure> he has done some good rants in his time
17:32 < RedMEdic> Is lesswrong still freaking out about a super computer from the future torturing them forever?
17:35 < kanzure> how'd i miss this one? https://github.com/kanzure/modelo/issues/5
17:35 < kanzure> cc dingo
17:36 < yorick> RedMEdic: this never actually happened, dammit
17:36 < yorick> RedMEdic: https://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/2cm2eg/rokos_basilisk/cjjbqv1
17:37 < yorick> ParahSailin: yeah, when I woke up this morning I wouldn't have assigned a high probability to that happening
17:38 < fenn> if the future doesn't cause the past, why is discussion of roko's basilisk "forbidden"
17:38 < kanzure> i am pretty sure roko's basilisk is not the same thing i intended when i was mentioning steve's paralysis
17:38 < fenn> is this all some elaborate in-joke?
17:38 < kanzure> there's two separate things going on here
17:39 < kanzure> yorick thinks he knows the other one
17:39 < kanzure> fenn knows the one that yorick doesn't know
17:39 < kanzure> i seem to know both things
17:39 < RedMEdic> yorick Thats interesting
17:39 < RedMEdic> Kanzure
17:39 < RedMEdic> explain
17:39 < RedMEdic> because now Im confused
17:39 < yorick> kanzure, wat
17:39 < kanzure> oh, i guess there is evidence for fenn knowing both things
17:40 < yorick> kanzure: I was responding to RedMEdic, your mentionings of steve are long past
17:40 < fenn> .title http://www.jeremysryan.com/1/post/2013/05/the-forbidden-knowledge-of-rokos-basilisk.html
17:40 < yoleaux> The Forbidden Knowledge of Roko's Basilisk - Jeremy Scott Ryan
17:40 * fenn grumbles
17:41 < kanzure> "Roko's basilisk is a proposition that says an all-powerful artificial intelligence from the future may retroactively punish those who did not assist in bringing about its existence. It resembles a futurist version of Pascal's wager; an argument suggesting that people should take into account particular singularitarian ideas, or even donate money, by weighing up the prospect of punishment versus reward. Furthermore, the proposition says ...
17:41 < kanzure> ... that merely knowing about it incurs the risk of punishment."
17:41 < yorick> fenn: apparently if someone figures it out we're all tortured forever
17:41 < kanzure> i am not really sure that steve's version is at all related to retroactive punishment or a specific proposition
17:42 < kanzure> his version is more like "saying or not saying a thing in the present may cause an ai to become created that will do particularly bad things"
17:42 < lichen> this is sounding awfully close to a religion
17:42 < kanzure> "and then paralysis with evaluating those possibilities"
17:42 < lichen> give tithe to the church to reach heaven
17:42 < kanzure> "being careful about your current actions" is now a religion?
17:42 < lichen> no
17:42 < lichen> the
17:42 < lichen> donate money, by weighing up the prospect of punishment versus reward.
17:43 < fenn> hence the reference to pascal's wager
17:43 < lichen> yes
17:43 < kanzure> s/saying or not saying/doing or not doing
17:43 < fenn> .wik speech act
17:43 < yoleaux> "A speech act in linguistics and the philosophy of language is an utterance that has performative function in language and communication." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speech_act
17:44 < kanzure> s/may cause/may be more or less likely by some unknown amount to
17:44 < lichen> what incentive would such an ai have to punish actions before its exitence
17:44 < kanzure> s/may cause/may be more or less likely by some unknown amount to cause
17:44 < kanzure> incentives are a very human idea
17:44 < kanzure> uh, for the record i don't really care for this particular wager
17:44 < lichen> goal-oriented thinking and incentive to outside agents arent unthinkable though
17:45 < lichen> moral punishment is harder to justify
17:45 < fenn> it's not about moral punishent at all; you just invented that
17:45 < yorick> but the thing would have no incentive to actually do it, unless someone figures out a decision-theory thing that makes it do it anyways, in which case we're all doomed
17:45 < lichen> im asking what the reason would be
17:45 < lichen> to punish actions that happened before its inception
17:45 < lichen> beyond "revenge"
17:46 < yorick> lichen: to incentivise us taking different actions
17:46 < fenn> yorick: the thing (the ai) may be totally nuts by your rationalist standards
17:46 < lichen> but isnt that a choice between no ai and no punishment versus ai and punishment for some?
17:46 < RedMEdic> lichen: the AI is so advanced that it can accurately model your thoughts
17:46 < RedMEdic> and so
17:46 < yorick> lichen: yes, except someone *else* might make it
17:46 < RedMEdic> wait
17:46 < RedMEdic> no
17:46 < lichen> true
17:46 < lichen> sort of a prisoner's dilemma
17:46 < RedMEdic> Sorry
17:47 < RedMEdic> for a second Roccos Basilisk made perfect sense
17:47 < RedMEdic> and then my brain farted
17:47 < yorick> lichen: except if one guy defects that guy's in heaven and everyone else gets tortured forever
17:47 < kanzure> whole thing is a fart
17:47 < lichen> requires conspiracy of all of the actors to get the total no-punishment end
17:47 < fenn> the conspiracy of apathy
17:48 < yorick> if only nobody cared! wait
17:48 < lichen> once the ai exists however, what is the reason to continue spending energy on the punishments?
17:48 < fenn> i should write a SF novel about how nobody cared and nothing cool happened
17:48 < fenn> we just went on making reality TV forever
17:48 < lichen> isnt that kind of the subplot of blindsight
17:49 < yorick> lichen: because knowing it knows we'd know that means it has to torture is or there's no incentive
17:49 < lichen> its a trust issue then
17:49 < lichen> it only needs sufficient reason to trust (faith) that the punishment will be there and continue
17:50 < kanzure> why does lesswrong attract all this attention and thought
17:50 < yorick> lichen: I mean, the christian god punishes people forever, it gets away with that
17:50 < kanzure> i guess it's easier to think about "morality of future ai killing you" than sequencing a genome
17:50 < lichen> pretty sure the christian religion is having a hard time finding new converts
17:50 < fenn> this reminds me of mutually assured destruction; nobody ever actually nuked the world but it had real consequences anyway
17:50 < yorick> kanzure: note that nobody actually thinks about it that much
17:50 < kanzure> steve does
17:51 < lichen> its a mental puzzle
17:51 < kanzure> i would guess maybe constantly
17:51 < kanzure> that's why i called it a paralysis
17:51 < lichen> sequencing the genome takes tons of dedicated work and study
17:51 < kanzure> yes
17:51 < kanzure> so do answers to questions about ai
17:51 < lichen> different scale of problem
17:51 < kanzure> i would argue genome sequencing is easier
17:51 < fenn> non-sequitur
17:51 < fenn> p != np
17:52 < yorick> kanzure: but the real question is, will thinking about genome sequencing instead of ai torture save you from ai torture?
17:52 < kanzure> fenn, what would a really really slow or arbitrarily slow human-like general intelligence manifest as? assume it is not just a time-step delay, but that it in fact gets "practically real-time" input/sensory data. and that it can behave while doing whatever slow human-like general intelligence stuff.
17:53 < fenn> probably not; there are a near infinite number of different reasons for an ai to want to torture you; gene sequencing may be one of them
17:53 < lichen> i have no mouth and i must quibble about hypothetical ai deals
17:54 < kanzure> i have not really seen too many "actually slow" human-like general intelligence implementations ever
17:55 < fenn> kanzure: it would be like running sim city on "fast"? cars and planes and people and clouds would be flying around really fast and suddenly things have happened and/or everyone ignores you or you get a torrent of information
17:55 < kanzure> when you say someone is slow, you very often don't mean literally slow. they can still do many things at normal human speed.
17:55 < kanzure> well, so the most obvious way to run a slow human brain would be to give it input at a rate proportional to the speed that neurons are operating at for whatever simulation-time is... but that's not what i mean..
17:55 < kanzure> oh i didn't mean the internal viewpoint
17:55 < kanzure> i meant external
17:56 < fenn> it would literally move slowly unless its motor control was under some faster subprocess
17:56 < kanzure> right, and then responses or discussion would probably just happen randomly?
17:56 < kanzure> like a few weeks later, "i have now thought about what my favorite color is, and it is red"
17:56 < kanzure> i don't know.
17:57 < kanzure> that's not something that we see in humans
17:57 < kanzure> they will just forget or something
17:57 < lichen> would guess it would depend on how it keeps track of information subprocesses, short-term memory
17:57 < lichen> thought fixation
17:58 < fenn> the Mailman in True Names was like this
17:58 < fenn> it didn't even bother with controlling a body though
17:58 < kanzure> well, why doesn't that happen in humans though? even the ones with abnormal brains?
17:58 < kanzure> it would seem that certain ideas are only attainable after some amount of "thinking" or "processing"
17:58 < lichen> ive known people who act like that
17:58 < fenn> it does, in cases of viral encephalitis that destroy dopaminergic neurons. haven't you seen "awakenings"?
17:58 < kanzure> and presumably if you have some software, it has different performance on low-end hardware compared to high-end hardware
17:59 < kanzure> so some general-intelligence-related software would operate differently on those hardware options
17:59 < kanzure> (unless you were doing simulation-based time-lock-step stuff)
17:59 < kanzure> no
18:01 < fenn> not the movie but related:
18:01 < fenn> .title http://youtu.be/QNum0dTYalk
18:01 < yoleaux> Encephalitis Lethargica Awakenings Oliver Sacks with text - YouTube
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18:03 < kanzure> why is he swaying
18:03 < kanzure> is that how news happens
18:06 < fenn> "great dignity"
18:08 < fenn> holy crap 5 million people died of this disease
18:08 < lichen> how have i never even heard of this disease
18:10 < kanzure> "screw you guys i am going back to 1926"
18:11 < fenn> the movie is pretty cool and adds a lot to this news story
18:12 < fenn> in particular i'm remembering a scene where the lady is standing in the middle of the room and a visitor is watching her, asking "so she just stands there all day?" and sacks says "no, she's walking to the drinking fountain" and they watch for a half hour as she makes a couple steps towards the fountain
18:14 < kanzure> hm.
18:15 < kanzure> "There is also some evidence of an autoimmune origin with antibodies (IgG) from patients with encephalitis lethargica binding to neurons in the basal ganglia and mid-brain. Western immunoblotting showed that 95% of encephalitis lethargica patients had autoantibodies reactive against human basal ganglia antigens. By contrast, antibodies reactive against the basal ganglia were found in only 2-4% of child and adult controls (n = 173, P < ...
18:15 < kanzure> ... 0.0001).[4]"
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18:16 < fenn> yeah says elsewhere in the article that the 1918 flu might have triggered the autoimmune reaction
18:16 < kanzure> paperbot: http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/127/1/21.full
18:16 < kanzure> .title
18:16 < yoleaux> Encephalitis lethargica syndrome: 20 new cases and evidence of basal ganglia autoimmunity | Brain
18:16 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1093%2Fbrain%2Fawh008
18:17 < kanzure> hehe google scholar pulls up a "[pdf] angelfire.com" link
18:17 < kanzure> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cluster=13981480527920112646&hl=en&as_sdt=0,44
18:20 < fenn> "To maintain morale, wartime censors minimized early reports of illness and mortality in Germany, Britain, France, and the United States; but papers were free to report the epidemic's effects in neutral Spain, creating a false impression of Spain as especially hard hit—thus the pandemic's nickname Spanish flu."
18:22 < fenn> "17 million died in India, about 5% of the population"
18:26 < fenn> "The deaths caused by the flu may have been overlooked due to the large numbers of deaths of young men in the war or as a result of injuries. When people read the obituaries, they saw the war or postwar deaths and the deaths from the influenza side by side. Particularly in Europe, where the war's toll was extremely high, the flu may not have had a great, separate, psychological impact, or may
18:26 < fenn> have seemed a mere extension of the war's tragedies."
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18:27 < kanzure> oh right, so here's an interesting definition of human-like intelligence,
18:28 < kanzure> for the same number of repetitions it taks a child to learn something, given equivalent histories of input and responses, a human-like general intelligence should perform approximately as well as a human child or baby or something
18:29 < kanzure> thankfully this is useless since you an't guarantee equivalent histories of inputs and responses
18:29 < kanzure> *can't
18:29 < fenn> but learning is not just about being exposed to data; it requires active participation and making choices about hypotheses to test
18:29 < kanzure> certainly
18:29 < fenn> also i think it's stupid to compare non-human whatever to human babies
18:30 < kanzure> just as you would expect to be able to mentally replace any kid in some scenario with another equivalently aged kid, you should be able to expect to do the same with general intelligence
18:30 < kanzure> yes it's probably stupid to do that
18:30 < fenn> since intelligence levels off at 15 we can assume that the differences are simply due to the machine not being fully ready to function since it's not fully constructed
18:30 < kanzure> but it's a little strange how underspecified reports of are monkey intelligence, specifically how they don't specify whether or not an upbringing was similar to that of a human child
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18:32 < fenn> a) wrt intelligence, it doesn't matter much how humans were raised, and b) they have done experiments raising monkeys in a human family, i.e. Nim Chimpsky
18:32 < kanzure> wait they really named one nim chimpsky?
18:32 < fenn> er, was it washoe
18:32 < kanzure> .wik nim chimpsky
18:32 < yoleaux> "Nim Chimpsky (November 19, 1973 – March 10, 2000) was a chimpanzee who was the subject of an extended study of animal language acquisition (codenamed 6.001) at Columbia University, led by Herbert S. Terrace; the linguistic analysis was led by the psycholinguist Thomas Bever." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim_Chimpsky
18:32 < kanzure> huh
18:33 < fenn> "chimpanzee was raised like a human child. Washoe was given affection and participated in everyday social activity with her adoptive family. Her ability to communicate was far more developed than Nim's. Washoe lived 24 hours a day with her human family from birth. Nim at 2 weeks old was raised by a family in a home environment by human surrogate parents"
18:33 < kanzure> "codenamed 6.001", wtf they named it after SICP?
18:34 < fenn> project 6501
18:34 < kanzure> project sesame street
18:34 < fenn> we raised a microcontroller as a human child from birth, giving it affection and encouragement to participate in everyday social activity with the adoptive family
18:36 < kanzure> rip http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hd3IB-CKoaw/S7wFXNtboWI/AAAAAAAABs8/pkc9dFwnY4c/s1600/eIMG_0294.jpg
18:36 < fenn> chip abuse!!!
18:36 < fenn> goodbye, nim chipsky
18:36 < kanzure> nym chipsky
18:37 < fenn> do you think that would pass the google/facebook "real names" policy
18:38 < fenn> oh they finally saw the light
18:38 < kanzure> someone should make a linkedin profile for a chimp
18:39 < kanzure> http://www.shutterbug.com/images/1012gagne02.jpg
18:40 < kanzure> i think the "cognitive control loop" thing looks probably right
18:40 < kanzure> i am not aware of much evidence of it being wrong or broken
18:41 < kanzure> so maybe given enough long-term storage and if you wait long enough it will do things that seem to be evidence of general intelligence
18:41 < kanzure> *wait long enough while running it
18:43 < kanzure> although now that i think about it, i can't think of any experiments or concepts that could prove it's totally wrong
18:43 < kanzure> and i don't like ideas that can't be refuted.
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18:43 < fenn> what are you talking about
18:45 < kanzure> page 4 figure 2 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Biologically%20based%20computational%20models%20of%20high-level%20cognition.pdf
18:45 < kanzure> page 3 figure 3 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Towards%20an%20executive%20without%20a%20homunculus:%20computational%20models%20of%20the%20prefrontal%20cortex%20basal%20ganglia%20system.pdf
18:45 < kanzure> page 6 figure 4 of http://arxiv.org/vc/arxiv/papers/1008/1008.5161v1.pdf
18:48 < fenn> those figures should probably be shown side by side
18:49 < fenn> is john burger part of o'reilly's group?
18:49 < kanzure> nope just some random
18:49 < kanzure> i haven't evaluated his other ideas
18:51 < kanzure> his concept of short term memory is a little weird, he probably means working memory
18:56 < fenn> "The Nim Chimpsky project failed in its attempt to replicate the results of Washoe. This failure is attributed to poor teaching, and to Nim being consistently isolated in a sterile laboratory environment, and often confined in cages, for his entire life. Nim did most of his learning in a white eight-by-eight laboratory room (with one of the walls containing a one-way mirror), where he was often
18:56 < fenn> trained to use signs without the referent present. Living in this setting, Nim did not receive the same level of nurturing, affection, and life experience, and many have suggested that this impaired his cognitive development, as happens with human children subjected to such an environment."
18:57 < fenn> i hadn't considered the possibility that they did everything in an empty white featureless room
18:58 < fenn> who the hell comes up with these experiments
18:58 < kanzure> "nurting and affection" can happen in a single room, so they are idiots for mentioning that
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18:58 < kanzure> arguably nurting and affection don't matter compared to the problems of a single room
18:58 < fenn> yes but it didn't happen
18:58 < kanzure> *nurturing
18:58 < kanzure> oh sure just praise him enough that'll help
19:00 < fenn> "Terrace and his colleagues aimed to use more thorough experimental techniques"
19:01 < fenn> Terrace sounds like a bad father
19:02 < fenn> and a bad scientist
19:02 < fenn> "Terrace ... was skeptical of Project Washoe and, according to the critics, went to great lengths to discredit it."
19:03 < fenn> "we failed to replicate the experiment after following a completely different protocol"
19:07 < fenn> i don't really get how people can say "animals don't have language" when i can say to my cat "go get your mouse" and she'll run off and fetch the toy mouse. what else is language but communicating by voice
19:07 < fenn> grammar is just a feature of a particular protocol
19:08 < kanzure> welp maybe you'll just have to raise your own chimp
19:08 < fenn> i'd rather not
19:12 < kanzure> i suppose it is impossible to make general intelligence as long as it is poorly defined
19:13 < fenn> no it makes it easier *nyah*
19:13 < kanzure> and impossible to evaluate ideas against said non-existing definition
19:13 < fenn> "not even wrong"
19:14 < kanzure> then how do you propose evaluating things like those control loop diagrams for whether or not they would make for an interesting or useful system with human-like brain-like abilities?
19:14 < fenn> by implementing them and see what happens
19:14 < nmz787> there is an ape research facility like 5 miles from here. my gf's colleague's grandfather started it, and he grew up on the property at some point for some time during his childhood.
19:15 < kanzure> "seeing what happens" is a bad strategy because you will never have a good limit for when you should stop using a particular technique or design
19:15 < fenn> kanzure: it's sort of like the halting problem; you can't predict what a program will do unless you run it
19:15 < kanzure> "continue to devote 100% of your resources to everything until one option turns out better than the rest" is a bad strategy, because you can't overallocate
19:16 < kanzure> the halting problem wasn't about predicting what a program will do, what the fuck
19:16 < kanzure> .wik halting problem
19:16 < yoleaux> "In computability theory, the halting problem is the problem of determining, from a description of an arbitrary computer program and an input, whether the program will finish running or continue to run forever." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem
19:16 < fenn> on the formal undecidability of allocating resources for brain-like systems
19:17 < kanzure> except they are somewhat decidable
19:17 < kanzure> for example, a system with 100 gigs of ram and no software will not do human-like general intelligence
19:17 < kanzure> how can i know this? must be magic
19:18 < fenn> it could be experiencing qualia and you not know it
19:18 < kanzure> i wouldn't are
19:18 < kanzure> *care
19:18 < fenn> that's racist!
19:18 < kanzure> i'm also not a vegetarian
19:18 < fenn> so, uh, in absence of a definition how do you decide anything at all
19:19 < kanzure> wasn't that calxism
19:19 < fenn> "i know it when i see it" isn't the best answer, but it's an answer
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19:20 < fenn> "The halting problem is an important undecidable decision problem; for more examples, see list of undecidable problems."
19:20 < kanzure> i wonder if anyone has put a kid under an fmri to look at what's going on when they are attempting to make walking movements
19:20 < fenn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_undecidable_problems
19:22 < fenn> don't look at that page too long
19:22 < kanzure> wait, were those "automaticity" authors arguing that young humans figure out walking with neocortex matter first, and then commit that to memory, or that in evolutionary history that may have happened but now the neocortex is not involved in learning to walk?
19:23 < fenn> i'm pretty sure the neocortex is involved in learning to walk
19:24 < fenn> also i think it's the "doing" that commits it to automatic memory (cerebellum)
19:25 < kanzure> walking sounds like an okay test then
19:25 < fenn> you could learn to walk, and then immediately get hit by a bus and never walk again, and then be healed many years later and not know how to walk
19:25 < kanzure> and it can't be a bipedal walking-specific algorithm or system thingy
19:25 < kanzure> that is cheating
19:25 < fenn> vs a person who learned to walk, then walked for many years, was hit by a bus, healed, and remembered immediately how to walk ("like riding a bicycle")
19:26 < fenn> it turns out a lot of the dynamics of walking are simply encoded in the human physical structure as pendulum masses and reflexes
19:27 < fenn> watch movies http://ruina.tam.cornell.edu/research/topics/locomotion_and_robotics/3d_passive_dynamic/index.php
19:28 < kanzure> does it fall like a human tends to when learning?
19:28 < fenn> no motors or anything, just hinges and a tilted plane
19:28 < fenn> it just falls, it's not like BigDog
19:29 < kanzure> p. sure big dog is using an algorithm of some very specific kind
19:29 < fenn> and we'll never know what that algorithm is
19:29 < kanzure> matt (3scan matt) knows, iirc
19:29 < kanzure> or at least a practically equivalent version
19:29 < kanzure> actually i'm surprised you don't, given some similarities to dynamic balancing and kinematics
19:30 < fenn> i've read some stuff about predicting motion in "wrench space"
19:30 < kanzure> is wrench space about wrenches
19:30 < fenn> bigdog has a lot of fancy computer vision and path planning that i don't really understand
19:31 < fenn> wrench space is the set of possible torques and positions of a robot's joints
19:31 < kanzure> "Passive-dynamic walkers are simple mechanical devices, composed of solid parts connected by joints, that walk stably down a slope. They have no motors or controllers, yet can have remarkably humanlike motions. This suggests that these machines are useful models of human locomotion; however, they cannot walk on level ground"
19:31 < kanzure> my one fatal flaw
19:31 < ybit> http://syntheticneurobiology.org/classes/
19:31 < fenn> they can walk on level ground if you add energy
19:32 < ybit> ripple partners with earthport https://ripple.com/ripple-labs-earthport-announce-global-partnership/
19:32 < kanzure> don't even bother with ripple
19:32 < kanzure> they changed their architecture and now it's not really distributd consensus
19:32 < kanzure> https://wiki.ripple.com/Consensus#More_Details
19:32 < kanzure> https://forum.ripple.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7801
19:33 < kanzure> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144471.0
19:33 < kanzure> and if you aren't going to be doing distributed consensus then what's the point of all that extra code?
19:33 < ybit> damn
19:33 < kanzure> and marketing >:(
19:33 < kanzure> banks sure do love them some ripple though
19:33 < ybit> thanks for the links
19:33 < ybit> antha language: "programming language for biology"
19:33 < ybit> https://github.com/antha-lang
19:34 < ybit> http://www.antha-lang.org/
19:35 < ybit> using web components / google's polymer theme to make it look shiny
19:35 < ybit> er material design theme
19:35 < fenn> i use your CSS to decorate my bit bucket
19:35 < RedMEdic> The hell
19:36 < RedMEdic> How does that work
19:36 < ybit> "An Antha protocol is intended to define the series of operations to be performed on a
19:36 < ybit> single experimental sample. These samples can be replicated or run with varying parameter
19:36 < ybit> values to define a larger-scale experiment. "
19:36 < fenn> RedMEdic: be extremely skeptical of claims made about synthetic biology software
19:36 < ybit> it's a language for defining protocols
19:37 < kanzure> gross, visual workflows
19:37 < kanzure> "Gene -> IN OrderGene(ProviderOfChoice)"
19:37 < kanzure> oh come on this is ridiculous
19:37 < kanzure> they should feel bad about themselves
19:37 < RedMEdic> Yeah
19:37 < kanzure> i'd even take https://www.transcriptic.com/platform/ over this
19:38 < fenn> it's backwards from any normal object-oriented syntax, which would be provider.order_gene(gene)
19:38 < ybit> i don't like antha's syntax
19:39 < fenn> presumably it's to make it visually similar to their pipes diagram DAG thingy
19:40 < kanzure> jonathan cline should release his plain english protocol lexer
19:40 < kanzure> "no way guys i am going to keep it a secret and get rich by doing nothing"
19:40 < kanzure> http://web.archive.org/web/20130513045337/http://finney.org/~hal/anti_observers.html "I wish Chaum and his group would stop directing their efforts towards protocols which require an observer chip to be effective. Granted, there are some things that don't work as nicely without observers. But I think that a realistic appraisal of the pros and cons suggests that non-observer protocols are more likely to further our ultimate goal of ...
19:40 < kanzure> ... personal privacy."
19:41 < fenn> was that just stuck in your brain-queue?
19:41 < kanzure> some open tabs
19:41 < fenn> PFC.sleep(1000); hand.emit(finneystuff)
19:41 < kanzure> here he is talking about detweiler http://web.archive.org/web/20130513051807/http://finney.org/~hal/is_a_person.html
19:42 < ybit> something to maybe look at later: https://github.com/codius/codius/wiki/Smart-Oracles:-A-Simple,-Powerful-Approach-to-Smart-Contracts
19:42 < ybit> unfortunately antha was featured on oreilly
19:42 < fenn> why should i care about detweiler and what does it have to do with anyting?
19:42 < kanzure> "There could be more than one credentialling agency, but they would all share a database of thumbprints or whatever." this idea is bad
19:42 < kanzure> well because detweiler is hilarious
19:42 < fenn> of course it's bad
19:43 < kanzure> he's the satoshi nakamoto whistleblowing time traveler
19:43 < kanzure> the gloriously stereotypical usenet schizophrenic wacko
19:43 < fenn> huh?
19:43 < kanzure> you haven't been paying attention have you
19:43 < RedMEdic> People are still taking biometric security seriously?
19:44 < fenn> i havent read the backlogs for today..
19:44 < kanzure> http://borg.uu3.net/ldetweil/medusa/medusa.html
19:44 < kanzure> "L.D. believed that "Nick Szabo" (szabo@netcom.com) was a "tentacle" or a front for various cryptoanarchists to post from. L.D. dissects an actual Szabo post here under the S.Boxx pseudonym, but misattributed it to J.Gilmore in a typical mischievous mood. The references to untraceable digital cash are classic cypherpunk. The pornography allusions are rarer but tie in with the T.C.May pornography post above."
19:44 < fenn> yeah i don't care
19:44 < fenn> wild conspiracy theories that are trivially testable
19:45 < kanzure> yeah but they are extra funny because these same people are caught up in another layer of very similar modern-day conspiracy theories
19:46 < kanzure> for-pay remailers http://web.archive.org/web/20130513050640/http://finney.org/~hal/pay_remail.html
19:46 < kanzure> "why remailers" http://web.archive.org/web/20120216180743/http://finney.org/~hal/why_rem1.html http://web.archive.org/web/20130513043044/http://finney.org/~hal/why_rem2.html
19:46 < fenn> satoshi nakamoto doesn't try very hard to pretend to be a real person
19:46 < kanzure> "(The Cypherpunk vision includes a world in which literally hundreds or thousands of such remailers operate. Mail could be bounced through dozens of these services, mixing in with tens of thousands of other messages, re-encrypted at each step of the way. This should make traffic analysis virtually impossible. By sending periodic dummy messages which just get swallowed up at some step, people can even disguise when they are communicating.)"
19:46 < kanzure> fenn: and why should he?
19:47 < kanzure> i mean why should he be obligated to pretend to be a real person?
19:47 < fenn> i'm not arguing that
19:47 < fenn> what i mean is detweiler is accusing supposedly real people of being nyms
19:47 < fenn> nakamoto is actually a pseudonym
19:47 < fenn> i mean, is not pretending to be a real person, so must be a pseudonym
19:47 < kanzure> i thought there was evidence that "wei dai" is also a pseudonym
19:48 < kanzure> who the hell names their kid "grave danger", come on
19:48 < fenn> wei dai is pretending to be a person
19:48 < fenn> also google translate doesn't work on names
19:48 < fenn> and you're a moron for thinking that it does
19:48 < kanzure> wei dai posted "grave danger" himself
19:48 < fenn> so, uh, in wacko conspiracy-land wei dai is the long lost rayhawk brother?
19:49 < fenn> time traveling emulated clone of ai descendant
19:49 < kanzure> well, detweiler's conspiracies were about nick szabo
19:49 < kanzure> and a handful of others like hal finney
19:49 < kanzure> but not wei dai (or at least, not anyone identifying as wei dai)
19:50 < RedMEdic> What in the everliving fuck are you guys talking about
19:50 < RedMEdic> Something about time traveling usenet trolls
19:51 < kanzure> usenet is pretty fucking magical
19:51 < RedMEdic> I wasnt aware usenet still existed
19:51 < kanzure> nah this all happened in the 80s and 90s
19:52 < fenn> from wei dai's AMA: "Q: Have you used other pseudonyms online? Are you Szabo? A: I've used pseudonyms only on rare (probably less than 10) occasions. I'm not Szabo but coincidentally we attended the same university and had the same major and graduated within a couple years of each other. Theoretically we could have seen each other on campus but I don't think we ever spoke in real life."
19:52 < jrayhawk> that's just what he *wants* you to think
19:52 < RedMEdic> The best usenets were the furry ones
19:53 < RedMEdic> Like that one weird guy who stalked a tiny toons voice actress
19:54 < kanzure> "Coming up with bitcoin required someone who, a) thought about money on a deep level, and b) learnt the tools of cryptography, c) had the idea that something like Bitcoin is possible, d) was motivated enough to develop the idea into something practical, e) was technically skilled enough to make it secure, f) had enough social skills to build and grow a community around it. The number of people who even had a), b) and c) was really small ...
19:54 < kanzure> ... -- ie, just Nick Szabo and me -- so I'd say not many people could have done all these things."
19:55 < catern> fenn: that doesn't sound coincidental
19:55 < catern> perhaps there was something in the water at the time
19:55 < kanzure> i think the set is a bit larger than just wei dai and nick szabo though
19:55 < catern> at that university
19:55 < kanzure> vernor vinge books laying around
19:55 < kanzure> that would do it
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19:57 < kanzure> "Satoshi is first and foremost a coder, not a writer. Szabo is a writer first and coder second."
19:58 < fenn> yep
19:58 < fenn> i'm actually surprised satoshi and szabo were mutually unaware of each other's ideas
19:58 < kanzure> szabo surely must have been unaware of satoshi because satoshi was being all secretive and not broadcasting ideas wildly
19:59 < fenn> ok but why wasnt satoshi aware of szabo
19:59 < fenn> if he knew about marc fawzi (ugh)
19:59 < kanzure> what a weird world
20:00 < fenn> maybe it's just a generation gap
20:00 < kanzure> "oh excuse me for not paying close attention to everything being said on the internet for the past 30 years, i might have missed one or two of you"
20:01 < fenn> cryptocurrency was not a very large field
20:01 < kanzure> "Also, I understand you haven't read the original bitcoind code but do you have any guess for why the author chose to lift your SHA256 implementation from Crypto++ when the project already required openssl-0.9.8h? Is there anything odd about the OpenSSL implementation that wouldn't be immediately obvious to someone who isn't a crypto expert?"
20:01 < kanzure> "Hmm, I’m not sure. I thought it might have been the optimizations I put into my SHA256 implementation in March 2009 (due to discussions on the NIST mailing list for standardizing SHA-3, about how fast SHA-2 really is), which made it the fastest available at the time, but it looks like Bitcoin 0.1 was already released prior to that (in Jan 2009) and therefore had my old code. Maybe someone could test if the old code was still faster ...
20:01 < kanzure> ... than OpenSSL?"
20:01 < kanzure> from http://lesswrong.com/lw/jgz/aalwa_ask_any_lesswronger_anything/apjk
20:02 < ybit> because hackernews isn't already enough to handle https://bit.ink/
20:02 < ybit> and all its clones like this
20:02 < kanzure> honestly if you want cryptocurrency-related infobitz just read bitcointalk.org or #bitcoin
20:02 < fenn> #bitcoin is terrible SNR
20:03 < RedMEdic> heh
20:03 < kanzure> "our goal is to have a SNR slightly better than the US dollar"
20:03 < ybit> hmm, not enough posts to keep that site going, probably won't last
20:03 < RedMEdic> Met a RL bitcoin true believer once
20:03 < RedMEdic> "Its going to get adopted by a big bank and then..."
20:03 < fenn> and then what
20:04 < RedMEdic> and then the 1k he dumped into it will pay off
20:04 < ybit> https://cryptanalys.is/ is the better site
20:04 < RedMEdic> SPOILER:(It didnt)
20:04 < fenn> uh, okay, whatever
20:04 < fenn> speculation isn't the point
20:04 < fenn> price speculation i mean
20:05 < kanzure> use #bitcoin-pricetalk for price speculation
20:05 < kanzure> i don't undestand what your story about a friend selling his bitcoin has to do with anything
20:05 < kanzure> or big banks for that matter
20:06 < fenn> kanzure: redmedic is just totally clueless that's all
20:06 < fenn> no offense, it's hard to a) learn how this works b) predict the future and c) decide to care
20:06 < fenn> not necessarily in that order
20:06 < RedMEdic> This is true
20:07 < RedMEdic> Sorry, just went off on a tangent
20:07 < fenn> kanzure is guilty of more bitcoin tangents than you will ever be capable of
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20:08 < kanzure> i have made the maximum tangent
20:09 < fenn> IRC law on the blockchain; labeling trolls for great justice
20:09 < ybit> "There are some alt coins hoping to decentralise and simplify tipping "
20:09 < ybit> I want to know which currencies these are
20:09 < kanzure> i have never proposed irc law on blockchains
20:09 < fenn> ybit: dogecoin, litecoin
20:09 < ybit> dogecoin simplifies tipping?
20:09 * fenn shrugs
20:10 < kanzure> not particularly
20:10 < ybit> dogecoin seems to just be a copy of everything out there..with a dog
20:10 < RedMEdic> fedora tipping?
20:10 < kanzure> dogecoin is definitely a copy
20:10 * fenn tips toward you respectfully
20:10 < fenn> oh i did it wrong
20:10 < kanzure> although oddly enough dogecoin has a bunch of bitcoin-qt devs willing to work on their fork
20:10 * fenn tips respectfully toward you
20:11 < kanzure> "It's Chinese Pinyin romanization, so pronounced "way dye"." aww hell
20:11 < fenn> how did you think it was pronounced?
20:12 < kanzure> the other way
20:12 < catern> wee dee
20:12 < fenn> weeeee
20:12 < fenn> (the d is silent)
20:12 < kanzure> (wey/way day)
20:13 < fenn> man has all that anime been for nothing
20:13 < RedMEdic> weegeee
20:13 < kanzure> hm "I'm worried that I may just be anchoring off of your two numbers, but I think 10^3 is a decent estimate. There are upwards of a thousand people at NIPS and ICML (two of the main machine learning conferences), only a fraction of those people are necessarily interested in the "human-level" AI vision, but also there are many people who are in the field who don't go to these conferences in any given year. Also many people in natural ...
20:13 < kanzure> ... language processing and computer vision may be interested in these problems, and I recently found out that the program analysis community cares about at least some questions that 40 years ago would have been classified under AI. So the number is hard to estimate but 10^3 might be a rough order of magnitude. I expect to find more communities in the future that I either wasn't aware of or didn't think of as being AI-relevant, and who ...
20:13 < kanzure> ... turn out to be working on problems that are important to me."
20:13 < RedMEdic> Moshi Moshi desu~ ^_^
20:14 < nmz787> ppl be scurred to get upgrayyded
20:14 < fenn> "vision" collision
20:17 < fenn> "Tim May who besides inspiring me with his vision of cryptoanarchy was also a role model for doing early retirement from the tech industry and working on his own interests/causes." is tim's own interest/cause the cypherpunks mailing list?
20:20 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_C._May
20:21 < kanzure> .wik timothy c. may
20:21 < yoleaux> "Timothy C. May, better known as Tim May, is a technical and political writer, and was an electronic engineer and senior scientist at Intel in the company's early history. He is retired as of 2003[update]." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_C._May
20:21 < fenn> i don't see the [update]
20:21 < ybit> .title http://online.wsj.com/articles/how-the-brain-uses-glucose-to-fuel-self-control-1417618996
20:21 < yoleaux> How the Brain Uses Glucose to Fuel Self-Control - WSJ
20:22 < kanzure> "and his essay "True Nyms and Crypto Anarchy" was included in a reprint of Vernor Vinge's novel True Names."
20:22 < kanzure> "He is retired {{As of|2003|lc=on}}."
20:22 < ybit> .title http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/04/15/301780516/voodoo-dolls-prove-it-hunger-makes-couples-turn-on-each-other
20:22 < yoleaux> Voodoo Dolls Prove It: Hunger Makes Couples Turn On Each Other : Shots - Health News : NPR
20:22 < fenn> how can a person like this not have a personal web page?
20:22 < ybit> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/04/09/1400619111
20:23 < ybit> .title
20:23 < yoleaux> Low glucose relates to greater aggression in married couples
20:23 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1073%2Fpnas.1400619111
20:23 < kanzure> you're asking how a privacy advocate doesn't hae a webpage?
20:23 < kanzure> *have
20:23 < fenn> well it's not like we don't know his name
20:24 < kanzure> fenn's on to you better hide
20:24 < ybit> github is banned in russia: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.opennet.ru%2Fopennews%2Fart.shtml%3Fnum%3D41171&edit-text=
20:24 < fenn> tim may i'm gonna get you
20:24 < fenn> no amount of usenet posting can save you now
20:25 < kanzure> he's probably just szabo anyway
20:25 < fenn> he is netochka nezvanova's father-husband
20:26 < ybit> https://twitter.com/NASA/status/539814651404754944
20:26 < ybit> We're sending humans to Mars! Watch our #JourneytoMars briefing live today at 12pm ET: http://www.nasa.gov/nasatv #Orion
20:26 < kanzure> sending humans is a dumb idea they should send robots
20:27 < RedMEdic> Wait
20:27 < RedMEdic> really
20:27 < RedMEdic> holy shit
20:27 < RedMEdic> hyped
20:27 < fenn> why do they keep saying "orion is going to mars" when it's obviously not designed to do that
20:28 < kanzure> and didn't the "mars in 20 years" stuff start in like 2003 or something
20:28 < kanzure> why is it still 20 years
20:28 < fenn> because we haven't discovered the secret of fusion yet
20:28 < fenn> "a spacecraft intended to carry a crew of up to 4 astronauts to destinations beyond-low Earth orbit (LEO)"
20:28 < RedMEdic> Kanzure: Yeah
20:29 < RedMEdic> Every few years shit gets really bad
20:29 < fenn> nothing about "for durations of two years" in there
20:29 < RedMEdic> and the president announces that were going to mars
20:29 < RedMEdic> It was Dubya who first said it
20:30 < fenn> i'm glad they developed something, i just dont get what it has to do with mars
20:30 < kanzure> so whenever they get their heads out of their asses about sending robots,
20:30 < kanzure> i think they should do robot personalities and personification
20:30 < kanzure> r2d2 didn't get famous by mistake
20:31 < kanzure> you could even have voice actors operating telerobotics at conferences and events even if it's totally fucking unrealistic that a rover would talk to a kid
20:31 < fenn> the ESA does that already
20:32 < kanzure> do they do that well?
20:32 < RedMEdic> +
20:32 < kanzure> ugh i hate that phrasing. i mean "are they good at it?"
20:34 < fenn> lookup error
20:34 < kanzure> get back to me in 37 days
20:35 * fenn sleeps for 3196800 seconds
20:35 < kanzure> that's cheating
20:36 < fenn> eric hunting posted some "rollin rick" robot something something it was blue and consumer friendly
20:37 < fenn> and i can't figure out what "EUROBOT" is
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20:38 < fenn> wtf is with government websites and their 25 pixel wide images
20:38 -!- Guest37856 is now known as maaku
20:40 < fenn> fwiw http://www.esa.int/images/exoskeletondemo.gif
20:40 < fenn> "Telemanipulation with the use of the ESA Exoskeleton"
20:46 < fenn> this looks pretty cute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Space_Exploration_Vehicle_in-space_concept.jpg
20:46 -!- RedMEdic [~RedMedic@CPE-69-23-98-42.new.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20:47 < kanzure> well, they could just lie about what they look like
20:47 < kanzure> and then they can make them as cute as they want
20:47 < fenn> "i swear there are humans inside"
20:47 < fenn> the real problem is control latency
20:47 < kanzure> "once in orbit, it sheds its cute exterior to let out its inner robot"
20:47 < fenn> mwahaha
20:48 < fenn> shredded hello kitty exterior burns upon reentry
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20:49 < fenn> mass 3 tons
20:49 < fenn> i'm always amazed by these numbers
20:49 < kanzure> did you see http://www.hitchbot.me/
20:49 < fenn> does it really take 3 tons to provide life support for 2
20:49 < kanzure> someone made a hitchhiking robot
20:50 < kanzure> .title http://vimeo.com/100845249
20:50 < yoleaux> hitchBOT on Vimeo
20:51 < kanzure> hmm that's not the one i remember
20:51 < kanzure> one of them was tweeting regularly with bad jokes or something
20:51 < kanzure> "fuck that guy" etc
20:52 < fenn> suicide-inducing robot
20:52 < fenn> it would be so easy to just throw it into the middle of a highway
20:53 < kanzure> that's property damage man
20:53 < kanzure> thing has cameras
20:53 < fenn> i'm still miffed about sony killing QRIO
20:54 < kanzure> pfft "I remember being educated on the dangers of East German doping while in Berlin. They were pointing to examples of former athletes who had their lives permanently and dramatically changed by the doping done to them. The Germans who were telling me about them weren't saying this for the sake of propaganda. Their point was that East Germany's doping was lagging behind the West, from a technological point of view, so to keep up, they ...
20:54 < kanzure> ... had to take risks."
20:54 < kanzure> "Remember the 2008 Olympics? The Chinese used an ultra sonic system in their pools so the waves from each competitor would not interfere with each other."
20:55 < fenn> -_-
20:55 < kanzure> hmmm
20:55 < kanzure> yeah...
20:55 < fenn> "hey! no splashing!"
20:55 * fenn pulls out ultrasonic cannon
20:56 < fenn> "Before it was cancelled, QRIO was reported to be going through numerous development, testing and scalability phases, with the intent of becoming commercially available within three or four years."
20:56 < fenn> i never understood why it was cancelled
20:57 < RedMEdic> Fenn: Because Sony is in a financial death spiral
20:57 < RedMEdic> And that would be too much fun
20:58 < RedMEdic> the future is going to be nothing but Tablets and google glass
20:58 < fenn> glass is dead
20:59 < RedMEdic> Already?
20:59 < fenn> google killed it just as surely as google plus and google buzz
20:59 < RedMEdic> Never even heard of google buzz
20:59 < RedMEdic> and all I know about Plus is that its the reason I cant comment on youtube videos anymore
21:00 < fenn> http://en.akihabaranews.com/129508/robot/the-saddest-robots-in-japan-live-among-the-sins-of-sony
21:27 < nmz787> http://zeptobars.ru/en/read/ULN2003-per-element-die-annotation
21:34 < fenn> .wik REEM
21:34 < yoleaux> "REEM is the latest prototype humanoid robot built by PAL Robotics in Spain. It is a 1.70 m high humanoid robot with 22 degrees of freedom, with a mobile base with wheels, allowing it to move at 4 km/hour." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REEM
21:34 < fenn> REEM-C has legs and 44 DOF
21:34 < fenn> also it is totally not cute
21:35 < fenn> in a safeguard-like way
21:35 < kanzure> code review stuff http://www.arguingwithalgorithms.com/posts/14-12-02-architecture-reviews
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23:16 < fenn> there i fixed it: http://fennetic.net/irc/finney.org/~hal/home.html
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23:43 < rkos> hey, can anyone get me this paper: http://cnc.sagepub.com/content/28/2/101.short ?
23:47 < ebowden> paperbot: http://cnc.sagepub.com/content/28/2/101.short
23:47 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1177%2F030981680408300105
23:48 < ebowden> rkos, try that link. ^
23:48 < rkos> thanks very much!
23:48 < rkos> i thought paperbot wasnt working... great!
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02:11 < NilsHitze> mornin
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02:53 < fenn> hopefully i'm not the only one who sees the irony in this: http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-incredible-linktron-5000tm/
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03:19 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nn.3887.html
03:19 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnn.3887
03:20 < ebowden> \:D/
03:24 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nature13982.html
03:24 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnature13982
03:25 < ebowden> \:D/
03:36 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/abstract/S1550-4131%2814%2900500-2
03:40 < ebowden> +tel duces http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2cf_1341765742
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04:07 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.jneurosci.org/content/34/35/11844
04:07 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1523%2FJNEUROSCI.4642-12.2014
04:15 < ebowden> \:D/
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04:21 < ebowden> paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jnr.490330407/abstract
04:44 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22127556
04:44 < paperbot> http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1007%2Fs00213-011-2594-8
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07:17 < kanzure> blah
07:18 < RedMEdic> blah blah blah blah
07:23 < kanzure> basically...
07:24 < RedMEdic> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgBj7Mc_4sc
07:24 < archels> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/chaibio/open-qpcr-dna-diagnostics-for-everyone
07:25 < RedMEdic> How much will this cost?
07:26 < archels> some $1299, according to that page
07:26 < RedMEdic> Damn
07:28 < kanzure> title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgBj7Mc_4sc
07:28 < kanzure> .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgBj7Mc_4sc
07:28 < yoleaux> The Poo in You - Constipation and Encopresis Educational Video - YouTube
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08:25 < kanzure> steve coles http://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-stephen-coles-20141205-story.html
08:26 < kanzure> hehe "a 103-year-old woman to practice as a pediatrician and a 106-year-old woman to drive."
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08:40 < kanzure> more openworm stuff in the news http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22429972.300-first-digital-animal-will-be-perfect-copy-of-real-worm.html
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09:46 < kanzure> "The uneasy relationship between mathematics and cryptography" http://www.ams.org/notices/200708/tx070800972p.pdf
09:54 < kragen> is that Koblitz of the Koblitz elliptic curves?
09:56 < kanzure> heh #bitcoin-wizards just asked that same question
09:57 < kragen> yes
10:13 < kanzure> .title https://plus.google.com/+KajSotala/posts/ZGtGMRbHumM
10:13 < yoleaux> A sophisticated hacker group is targeting highly placed corporate personnel…
10:14 < kanzure> https://securelist.com/blog/research/66779/the-darkhotel-apt/
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10:34 < kanzure> http://einsteinpapers.press.princeton.edu/
10:34 < kanzure> http://www.einstein.caltech.edu/ with links to various highlights
10:35 < kanzure> "To Max Planck, on receiving credible death threats — Einstein writes that he cannot attend the Scientist’s Convention in Berlin because he is “supposedly among the group of persons being targeted by nationalist assassins.”"
10:35 < kanzure> hah
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10:38 < kanzure> what? his second year instructor just-so-happened to be minkowski? that seems a little unlikely... http://einsteinpapers.press.princeton.edu/vol1-trans/49
10:38 < kanzure> er i meant http://einsteinpapers.press.princeton.edu/vol1-trans/48 but same thing
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12:00 < nmz787_i> http://www.antha-lang.org/
12:01 < nmz787_i> .title
12:01 < yoleaux> Welcome to Antha - Antha
12:01 < nmz787_i> 'coding biology'
12:01 < nmz787_i> "Antha is a high-level language for biology, making it easy to rapidly compose reproducible work flows using individually testable and reusable Antha Elements."
12:01 < nmz787_i> "© 2014 Antha Authors. Code licensed under the GPL 2.0 License. Documentation licensed under CC BY 3.0. Proudly sponsored by Synthace"
12:01 < nmz787_i> https://github.com/antha-lang
12:01 < nmz787_i> kanzure: plz give your summary when ready
12:02 < RedMEdic> Are we discussing Antha again
12:02 < RedMEdic> Antha is bullshit
12:03 < nmz787_i> http://www.antha-lang.org/docs/intro.html
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12:04 < nmz787_i> when was it previously discussed?
12:04 < nmz787_i> (I can't grep the logs right now)
12:05 < nmz787_i> this doesn't look terrible, though I'd prefer something non-java (or javascrpit I guess) https://github.com/antha-lang/antha/blob/master/examples/bradford/bradford.an
12:06 < nmz787_i> or is this go?
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12:08 < nmz787_i> hmm, I cannot find an API function list
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12:10 < kanzure> http://in-theory.blogspot.com/2007/08/swift-boating-of-modern-cryptography.html
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12:10 < kanzure> nmz787_i: use http://transcriptic.com/platform instead of antha
12:13 < kanzure> "Greetings, At least one competing scientist has e-mailed me today to dispute the assertion, placed in the media, that Dr. Coles had "over 100" scientific journal articles published."
12:13 < kanzure> wtf
12:14 < kragen> "Without this technology, buying and selling things online would be extremely inconvenient and companies like amazon and ebay would probably not exist.
12:14 < kragen> this seems unlikely to me
12:15 < kragen> you'd just have to use something like kerberos and get a TGT to talk to Amazon instead of verifying that their cert isn't on the CRL
12:15 < kanzure> worst case scenario you would have lots and lots of escrow
12:16 < kragen> escrow doesn't make things less convenient
12:16 < kragen> just riskier
12:16 < kanzure> oh right, the claim was inconvenience and not impossibility
12:17 < kragen> aye
12:18 < kanzure> why would anyone dispute some dead guy's obituary saying x number of publications
12:19 < kragen> lies anger some people
12:21 < nmz787_i> jrayhawk: ah hahahahah I just saw a spam email in my spam folder with the title "Overeating Sugar... CURES Diabetes?"
12:22 < nmz787_i> kanzure: I know of transcriptic... does your indication mean you've previously reviewed antha?
12:31 < heath> nmz787_i: last night
12:31 < heath> ..is when antha was mentioned
12:33 < heath> postgresql 9.4.0 to be released next week for anyone who cares
12:33 < heath> http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/26295.1417708564@sss.pgh.pa.us?utm_source=dbweekly&utm_medium=email
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12:41 < _0bitcount> "Wanderers" http://vimeo.com/108650530 . How I miss Carl Sagan.
12:48 < heath> _0bitcount: linked a few days ago :)
12:48 < heath> pretty neat vid though
12:48 < _0bitcount> Sorry for reposting. :-)
12:51 < _0bitcount> I wonder if we'll ever make it to those places. It will probably easier to send AI-powered spaceships with ultra-HD sensors to report back to Earth.
12:51 < archels> this one is worth reposting
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13:04 < heath> i guess that came off a bit annoying, apologies
13:09 < kragen> _0bitcount: it's easier today to weave cloth with automatic electric looms, but that doesn't stop enthusiasts from hand-weaving their own cloth
13:10 < kragen> it's mostly a question of will, which is to say, budget
13:12 < _0bitcount> kragen, true, but I think we humans will be very different from our present fragile being by then. Our bodies will have plenty of improvements to withstand the harsh environment of space.
13:13 < nmz787_i> _0bitcount: very cool vid
13:17 < _0bitcount> It really is.
13:17 < archels> _0bitcount: the space faring thing is just around in the corner--in fact we're already doing it now. In comparison to that, biological modifcations are much much more inchoate.
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13:19 < _0bitcount> archels, I truly hope that is about to happen. However, I read about how many in governments and big, old industries don't want the space frontier to be open...
13:19 < _0bitcount> ... except for their own, limited and restricted purporses.
13:21 < archels> okay, I don't want to get into a whole free market rhetoric here
13:21 < archels> shall we say... whatever works? :)
13:22 < _0bitcount> Maybe I am being a bit negative. Maybe, for today's technology, establishing permanent bases in the Moon and Mars is not that different from crossing the Bering Strait or the Atlantic Ocean centuries ago.
13:23 < _0bitcount> archels, I am confident that the pressures of the market will do their part on opening space for a lot more. ;-)
13:24 < kragen> _0bitcount: yeah, it's totally plausible that we'll modify our bodies for spacefaring
13:24 < kragen> but we're not actually that fragile
13:27 < _0bitcount> kragen, but won't be easier/cheaper in, say, 30 years to send a highly autonomous fleet of ships to Jupiter, Europa, Saturn, etc than to make a habitable pod?
13:29 < kanzure> it'll also be cheaper to send emulated brains than fleshmatter, but what's your point?
13:31 < _0bitcount> My point is that we might miss visiting those worlds if it ends up being cheaper and easier to send our artificial servants.
13:31 < _0bitcount> And maybe experience those environments through virtual reality.
13:32 < kanzure> there is nothing glamorous about being stuck in a metal tin can for 40 years
13:32 < archels> kragen: eventually yeah, but these are wildly different timescales
13:33 < kanzure> calling an emulated brain a servant is a little strange but if you want to force non-cooperative people into doing stuff hey whatever
13:33 < _0bitcount> kanzure, unless it's like the Enterprise, holodeck and all. :-)
13:35 < _0bitcount> kanzure, it was just a poetic way of thinking about it. They will probably feel more like a part of ourselves.
13:36 < archels> https://asciinema.org/
13:38 < archels> _0bitcount: Mars gets dull pretty quickly if you're just looking around
13:38 < archels> and the finite speed of light will make telepresence useless, anyway
13:39 < archels> so then we're back to sending WBEs, but I don't think that's what you meant
13:39 < kanzure> probably wont need to send *whole* brains either
13:39 < archels> what manner of evil is this now
13:40 < _0bitcount> archels, whether WBE or pure AI, that was my idea, that sending "someone" not made of flesh would be easier and more manageable.
13:41 < archels> oh okay, yeah I'm 100% with you on that one
13:41 < _0bitcount> So space tourism will end up being something we do around Earth's orbit, maybe on the Moon.
13:42 < archels> that's very different from sending "artificial servants" though and experiencing things vicariously through VR
13:43 < _0bitcount> So are we not considering AIs like servants anymore? :-)
13:44 < archels> well, either *you* go, or you stay at home and look at a video feed with six and half minute delay
13:45 < _0bitcount> Not that I have anything against conceding them full citizenry. I am sure I will love my daily AI helpers more than many among the people I have to deal with.
13:49 < _0bitcount> archels, "video" sounds very XX century. How about ultra-HD 3D systems? I we can buffer enough of the surroundings, an immersive experience is going to be realistic enough.
13:51 < archels> like Google street view? sure, but like you said, then we're just looking at a cached, Earthbound data stream
13:53 < kanzure> i can't follow the conversation any more
13:53 < kanzure> send many cheap things this is good
13:54 < archels> sending humans, too
13:54 < archels> be they in digital or analog form
13:57 < nmz787_i> wow, the comments here are vulgar and violent (I don't think I
13:57 < nmz787_i> 'd heard of this before today) https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/secretlabs/agent-the-worlds-smartest-watch/comments
13:59 < nmz787_i> wow this is really cool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9b0J29OzAU
13:59 < nmz787_i> .title
13:59 < yoleaux> World's Simplest Electric Train 【世界一簡単な構造の電車】 - YouTube
14:01 < nmz787_i> chris_99: there's a UK BOM for that here http://hackaday.com/2014/12/04/amazing-sciences-simple-electric-train/#comment-2210842
14:02 < chris_99> heh cool, cheers
14:05 < chris_99> oh i didn't think the bettery was doing anything, but apparently it's creating an electromagnet using the copper coil?
14:09 < nmz787_i> yea
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14:30 < kragen> _0bitcount: it might be easier and cheaper, but people might still do both
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14:31 < kragen> I don't think anybody has a very clear idea of the timescales we're talking about here
14:34 < _0bitcount> kragen, at what point in time are you expecting those capabilities to be common?
14:35 < kragen> sometime this century or next
14:35 < kragen> maybe next month
14:36 < _0bitcount> ?
14:47 < _0bitcount> kragen, that's not very reassuring. Some could say we should just forget and focus on more urgent matters down here, on Earth.
14:47 < kanzure> why do you care about what they say?
14:54 < _0bitcount> kanzure, what do you mean?
14:55 < kanzure> whether or not it takes a month for capabilities to be common should be an independent analysis from whether or not there exist people who say "forget and focus on other problems"
14:57 < _0bitcount> kanzure, since large scale problems require a lot of money, public relations is a big imperative in selling politicians and the public the need for something.
14:57 < _0bitcount> Hence having to be more or less accurate with the dates.
14:59 < _0bitcount> Imagine Elon Musk telling investors and potential customers that "a competitive electric vehicle would be ready by next month, maybe 2050."
14:59 < kanzure> elon musk will still do whatever the fuck he wants independent of the existence of people who want to "forget and focus on other problems"
14:59 < kanzure> so your argument is still garbage
15:01 < kragen> calm down, kanzure
15:01 < _0bitcount> kanzure, it might be garbage, but I don't like people like Tesla dying in destitution for lack of support.
15:01 < kanzure> bad arguments are bad and should be rejected
15:01 < kanzure> i odn't understand what destitution has to do with this
15:01 < kragen> it'll be okay
15:01 < kanzure> no it wont if you let bad arguments stick around your SNR drops
15:02 < kragen> _0bitcount: designing a competitive electric vehicle doesn't require any basic science; even when Tesla started, it was just a matter of engineering and cost control.
15:02 < _0bitcount> I was talking about Nikola Tesla in that last example.
15:03 < _0bitcount> Sorry for mixing things up.
15:03 < kanzure> no it is elon who should apologize for violating namespace integrity
15:03 < kanzure> actually didn't elon get into tesla after tesla was named tesla?
15:03 < kanzure> so anyway, at most you can blame him for continuing to allow it to be named tesla
15:04 < kragen> Whole-brain emulation, by contrast, requires new basic science, as does adapting our bodies to outer space. Sending humans to Jupiter might be possible without new basic science, but we could only do it without new basic science on such a long timeframe that new relevant basic science will probably emerge.
15:04 < kanzure> you could send all the cadavers you like, does that help?
15:04 < kragen> So all of these things are deeply unpredictable. That alone wouldn't justify "maybe next month".
15:05 < kanzure> tesla didn't die in destitution because people who argued "forget and focus on other problems"
15:05 < kanzure> *because of
15:05 < kragen> But maybe next month an AGI developed at Google's Switzerland office will FOOM and perhaps decide that sending AGIs to Jupiter is an eminently reasonable idea and should happen as soon as possible. Say, within a week.
15:06 < kragen> I mean these are just very difficult things to predict.
15:08 < _0bitcount> kanzure, I was under the impression that he was kind of a humanist, so bankers and financiers ended up not wanting anything to do with him.
15:08 < kragen> He was insane, which made it hard to work with him.
15:09 < kanzure> you are both off on some weirdo political tangent now that i refuse to follow
15:09 < kanzure> i still hold that whether or not it takes a month for capabilities to be common should be an independent analysis from whether or not there exist people who say "forget and focus on other problems"
15:09 < _0bitcount> I'm not claiming any accurate, historical knowledge, only what I have read.
15:09 < kanzure> and that you should not be telling me that the existence of people who are not interested in your proposals are the primary reason for your inability to execute
15:10 < kragen> Hopefully you're talking to _0bitcount here. I'm well aware that my own inability to execute is entirely self-generated!
15:10 < kragen> Also, I'm not trying to execute any of those things.
15:10 < kanzure> right, i mean _0bitcount
15:11 < kanzure> and i'm glad to hear that you're "well aware that my own inability to execute is entirely self-generated" hehe
15:11 < kanzure> arguably you should be trying to execute at least some of those things, though
15:12 < kanzure> uh, in this context i'm not sure which subset
15:12 < kragen> I mean maybe a different environment would be more congenial to it and compensate better for my weaknesses. But fundamentally they're my weaknesses, not the world's.
15:12 < _0bitcount> kanzure, I like that attitude. :-) I frequently remind myself that I should be doing what I want, not what is, apparently, expected of me.
15:12 < kragen> _0bitcount: what you want is not necessarily what you should be doing
15:13 < kragen> I mean that's sort of a pure hedonist viewpoint, exacerbated by a failure to recognize your own irrationality
15:13 < kanzure> wanting the impossible is a recipe for a bad dinner
15:13 < _0bitcount> I wasn't thinking about space, just more mundane things.
15:13 < kanzure> well, i mean, wanting to cheat around certain amounts of effort investments is a recipe for bad tastes in your mouth
15:14 < kragen> yeah
15:14 < kanzure> although for certain things it is attainable to cheat
15:14 < kanzure> mostly these are already existing things
15:15 < kanzure> if i had more working memory then i would elaborate on this concept but i can't picture it correctly
15:15 < kanzure> i don't think it's precisely irrationality, just something like a mismatch of effort expectation versus outcome estimation
15:15 < kragen> you need the right amount of "cheating" to be successful. Too much "cheating" and you defeat yourself, like Coyote nailing his eyelids shut
15:15 < kragen> Too little "cheating" and most of your hard work is wasted.
15:16 < kanzure> "cheating" is stuff like "naaah i'm sure the government will do this for me"
15:16 < kragen> yeah, that's a good strategy in many cases
15:17 < kanzure> so far the government has not put people on mars, so arguably no?
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15:17 < kragen> no, but it did pay for the development of most of the technology needed to do so.
15:18 < kragen> if that's your goal, you should focus your efforts on things where they will make more difference, for example, things the government is less likely to do for you.
15:19 < kragen> And maybe figuring out how to avoid coming into direct conflict with the government.
15:19 < kragen> e.g. do your stem-cell research in South Korea, not the US.
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15:42 < kanzure> hmm one of the openworm people is doing bitcoin things https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5231
15:42 < kanzure> stalkermatrix wins again
15:50 < pasky> luke-jr is working on openworm too?
15:50 < pasky> he runs eligius, my favorite mining pool (when i was still mining bitcoins)
15:51 < kanzure> nope not luke-jr
15:51 < kanzure> "ABISprotocol"
15:53 < kanzure> pasky: hi
15:54 < kanzure> i have been meaning to bug you about ai things
15:55 < pasky> hi :)
15:55 < pasky> bug on
15:56 < kanzure> page 4 figure 2 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Biologically%20based%20computational%20models%20of%20high-level%20cognition.pdf
15:56 < kanzure> page 3 figure 3 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Towards%20an%20executive%20without%20a%20homunculus:%20computational%20models%20of%20the%20prefrontal%20cortex%20basal%20ganglia%20system.pdf
15:56 < kanzure> page 6 figure 4 of http://arxiv.org/vc/arxiv/papers/1008/1008.5161v1.pdf
15:56 < kanzure> what do you think?
15:57 < kanzure> my primary concern is that this is already highly conserved between animals and therefore seems to be insufficient to make general intelligence
16:01 < pasky> *scratches head*
16:01 < pasky> i'm not sure i can think anything about it before reading these papers in detail
16:02 < pasky> obviously the arxiv paper seems most comprehensible to me
16:02 < kanzure> i'm really on the fence as to whether or not to like that paper
16:02 < pasky> but the title of that figure is rather amusing
16:02 < kanzure> yes :)
16:03 < kanzure> if you want some really long reading then this paper (miscategorized, so bite me) is good http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Towards%20a%20universal%20cortical%20algorithm:%20Examining%20hierarchical%20temporal%20memory%20in%20light%20of%20frontal%20cortical%20function.pdf
16:03 < kanzure> (this was also found on arxiv, which is a nice trend)
16:04 < pasky> ah, HTMs
16:05 < kanzure> sorta
16:06 < pasky> i think i need to pick something to focus on here - so basically what you are pondering is how the brain decides which things to remember?
16:07 < kanzure> more like, given what we have previously discussed and your insistence on symbolic computation, do you think this is an interesting direction even if it is explicitly non-symbolic
16:08 < kanzure> uh, and questions like, methods of estimation of the plausibility of an implementation option (such as those diagrams) doing anything interesting without buying 100 billion supercomputers for testing
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16:10 < kanzure> oh this is curious, "The frontal lobes have long been among the least well understood regions of the brain. Early experiments using lesion and electrical stimulation failed to identify any clear functions for the majority of frontal cortex, resulting in their being considered the "silent lobes" for much of the twentieth century. It is only in the last several decades that new techniques have allowed researchers to begin to build an ...
16:10 < kanzure> ... understanding of frontal lobe function."
16:10 < pasky> hehe, i would certainly not say about myself that i'm in favor of "symbolic computation" at all; but maybe definitions of symbolic computation vary
16:10 < kanzure> regarding that last link, perhaps starting at page 31 would be better
16:11 < kanzure> oh it is possible that i am misremembering your design proposal thingy
16:11 < pasky> but so far I don't even really understand what are the diagrams *about* - i thought it's about memory updates, but now it seems more like about action selection; i'll just read the papers i guess
16:11 < pasky> maybe it's both
16:11 < kanzure> they are mixing memory and action selection sort of
16:11 < kanzure> executable memory of sorts
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16:32 < pasky> (in general, i'm not in favor of insisting to emulate the brain down to details to reproduce general intelligence, biologically plausible neurons etc.; but doing *architecturally* similar things makes a lot of sense, and i'm e.g. huge fan of distributed representations)
16:33 < kanzure> "distributed representations"?
16:33 < pasky> i'll need some time to digest this; i've read pages 31-47 of that last link and it's really interesting
16:33 < pasky> kanzure: ever heard of word2vec?
16:33 < kanzure> "This tool provides an efficient implementation of the continuous bag-of-words and skip-gram architectures for computing vector representations of words. These representations can be subsequently used in many natural language processing applications and for further research."
16:33 < kanzure> "The word2vec tool takes a text corpus as input and produces the word vectors as output. It first constructs a vocabulary from the training text data and then learns vector representation of words. The resulting word vector file can be used as features in many natural language processing and machine learning applications."
16:34 < pasky> basically, the point is that each word is represented by a long vector (typically 100D), which originally was a hidden layer of an ANN
16:35 < pasky> and the vector space emerging from this is very regular
16:35 < eudoxia> i think i heard about this today at lunch
16:35 < kanzure> so this is just giant multi-dimensional matrix math?
16:35 < eudoxia> vector operations preserve semantics
16:35 < pasky> the popular example is that doing aritmetics is meaningful; if you do king + woman - man, the word with smallest cosine distance to that vector is "queen"
16:36 < pasky> it doesn't work 100% but it works surprisingly often
16:36 < pasky> and such properties are completely implicit in the system; it really does come from an internal representation in a neuron network trained for some context-based word prediction task
16:36 < pasky> so these are distributed representations in natural language processing
16:37 < pasky> now in computer vision you also have them
16:37 < pasky> you probably heard about convolutional neural networks that can detect objects on images with extremely high precisions, do pretty impressive segmentation tasks etc.
16:37 < pasky> and detect cats in videos :)
16:38 < pasky> again it's an ANN that has as output layer that indicates something like the type of object on the image
16:38 < pasky> but if you tear that output layer away and look at the last hidden layer representation, you again get a 100D vector that is a distributed representation with quite rich description of the semantics of the image
16:39 < pasky> now the funny thing is that you can learn mapping between image and word vectors to build text descriptions of images
16:41 < pasky> you start with some training set, but then on the testing set you are able to describe images using *unseen* words - so based on training set about cars and cats, you can label a picture of a plane as "airplane" even if you never saw one in the training set
16:41 < pasky> it's where the "deep learning" fashion in AI is going now
16:43 < pasky> and of course all of these tasks are about recognition stuff, there is more niche research on how to take actions (the famous deepmind paper on atari games), but noone seems to have *any* *fricking* *clue* how to get planning involved in this all
16:44 < pasky> (of course everyone has many ideas, but nothing that works on any interesting scale; I don't think we even have good testcases for this)
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16:46 < pasky> (to clarify - word2vec actually is a trivial case of ANN, so it's often not even described as an ANN; but it's in the same abstraction space)
16:47 < kanzure> so you are claiming that a large enough vector of characteristics/properties/attributes is equivalent to a hidden layer in an ANN?
16:48 < kanzure> or what is the transformation function exactly between the two
16:48 < pasky> it's some tensor, just matrix math
16:48 < pasky> or maybe even just matrix multiplication, i'm not sure now
16:49 < kanzure> so is the claim that these vectors are losslessly convertable into trained neural network topologies with weights n' stuff
16:49 < kanzure> convertible
16:49 < pasky> oh, nope
16:49 < pasky> it *is* weight vector of one hidden layer
16:50 < pasky> information about other layers (if there are more) is not stored in it
16:50 < pasky> in the word2vec context, you typically train the network then just keep that weight vector and throw away the network
16:50 < pasky> because the network just predicts the next word when you saw the last 100
16:54 < pasky> we call it distributed representations because we imagine it like brain neuron activity; instead of having individual vector elements associated with fixed meaning, the semantics is stored in a complex way distributed over many elements
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17:25 < kanzure> "As a comparison, Uber raised money at a $18B valuation in June, and then closed a round at $40B a few days ago. While a smaller percentage increase, Instacart's $1.6B increase in value looks pretty trivial compared to Uber's $22B increase over the same time period."
17:26 < nmz787> .title http://whatisgon.wordpress.com/2011/11/30/export-gimp-xcf-layers-as-jpegs/
17:26 < yoleaux> Export Gimp XCF Layers as Jpegs | What is Going On?
17:26 < nmz787> (using Python)
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17:27 < nmz787> and the API that roughly corresponds (the Python docs for GIMP seem pretty horrible to me, no API list) http://oldhome.schmorp.de/marc/pdb/file_jpeg_save.html
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17:48 < jrayhawk> nmz787: actually there were some very very very high-carb low-fat diet trials in, like, the fifties that reversed diabetes
17:48 < jrayhawk> so low fat that compliance outside of a metabolic ward is nigh-impossible
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17:51 < kanzure> er, the real diabetes?
17:51 < jrayhawk> which one is real
17:53 < jrayhawk> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=kempner+rice+diet
17:53 < kanzure> pancreatic underproduction of insulin is the real one, right?
17:55 < nmz787> paperbot: science
17:55 < nmz787> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0002934350902002
17:55 < jrayhawk> type 1 diabetes is (at least) two diseases; one is autoimmunity targeting beta cells, two is various downstream effects of underproduction of insulin as a result of all the beta cells being dead.
17:55 < paperbot> nmz787: get it yourself
17:56 < jrayhawk> hahaha
17:57 < jrayhawk> type 2 is cellular insulin resistance, generally caused by either oxidative stress or inflammation
17:57 < jrayhawk> there's also type 1.5 which is where the beta cells become so overburdened by compensatory production in type 2 that they all die off and you effectively get the second half of type 1 diabetes.
17:58 < jrayhawk> some have argued for dementia being type 3, but that's unsettled
17:59 < kanzure> i would definitely count 1.5 as real
17:59 < nmz787> paperbot got rude
18:09 < jrayhawk> 1.5 is also pretty hard to get
18:10 < jrayhawk> generally you need decades of pancreatic punishment to achieve it
18:11 < jrayhawk> i think pre-diabetes is bullshit, if you want something to be skeptical of
18:12 < kanzure> is pre-diabetes supposed to be about type 1, type 2, type 1.5, or something else, or any of them?
18:12 < jrayhawk> it's pre-type 2
18:12 < nmz787> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKiP-4o3cFI
18:12 < nmz787> .title
18:12 < yoleaux> Direct Digital Synthesis (DDS) with Bil Herd - YouTube
18:13 < jrayhawk> or, rather, in the spectrum of severity of type 2, it is low enough that doctors don't feel comfortable diagnosing an intervention or something
18:15 < jrayhawk> the entire concept of "standard lab ranges" in standard of care are also insane, so there's probably some reason for its existence derived therefrom
18:45 < nmz787> fenn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVD5qKIY6ZM
18:45 < nmz787> .title
18:45 < yoleaux> 3 Minutes On... The Intel 4004 Microprocessor - YouTube
18:45 < nmz787> fenn: apparently they released tons of data on it a few years ago
18:59 < kanzure> http://blog.uber.com/ride-ahead
18:59 < kanzure> "This kind of continued growth requires investment. To that end, we have just raised a financing round of $1.2 billion, with additional capacity remaining for strategic investments. This financing will allow Uber to make substantial investments, particularly in the Asia Pacific region."
19:12 < nmz787> http://firstmicroprocessor.com/documents/2013powerpoint.ppt
19:13 < nmz787> .wik horners rule
19:13 < yoleaux> "In mathematics, Horner's method (also known as Horner scheme in the UK or Horner's rule in the U.S.) is either of two things: (i) an algorithm for calculating polynomials, which consists of transforming the monomial form into a computationally efficient form; or (ii) a method for approximating the roots of a polynomial." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horner's_method
19:17 < nmz787> .wik booths multiply algorithm
19:17 < yoleaux> "Booth's multiplication algorithm is a multiplication algorithm that multiplies two signed binary numbers in two's complement notation. The algorithm was invented by Andrew Donald Booth in 1950 while doing research on crystallography at Birkbeck College in Bloomsbury, London." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booth's_multiplication_algorithm
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19:56 < kanzure> "When it’s 3 A.M., and you’ve been debugging for 12 hours, and you encounter a virtual static friend protected volatile templated function pointer, you want to go into hibernation and awake as a werewolf and then find the people who wrote the C++ standard and bring ruin to the things that they love."
20:00 < kanzure> "To a first approximation, we can say that accidents are almost always the result of incorrect estimates of the likelihood of one or more things."
20:00 < kanzure> "A typical designer (20 years into a 40 year career) • Has less than 5,000 hours of real hands-on system experience … and, almost none of this is in the system’s real environment (When was the last time you saw a designer riding in an electronics bay of an aircraft?)"
20:00 < kanzure> this is from http://www.rvs.uni-bielefeld.de/publications/DriscollMurphyv19.pdf
20:01 < kanzure> "We cannot rely on our experience-based intuition to determine
20:01 < kanzure> whether a failure can happen within required probability limits"
20:01 < kanzure> er, i meant "We cannot rely on our experience-based intuition to determine whether a failure can happen within required probability limits."
20:03 < kanzure> " An effect crossing a sufficient number of layers of abstraction [in some system's design] is indistinguishable from magic*"
20:05 < kanzure> "How many Failure Modes and Effects Analysis (FMEA) procedures ask what would happen if one electrical part (a diode) changed into another (a capacitor)? At the electrical part level, this appears to be magic. And, yet, the simplest of failures (a crack) caused this transmogrification. The literature includes other examples of capacitors becoming resistors, transistors becoming silicon controlled rectifiers (SCRs), amplifiers becoming ...
20:05 < kanzure> ... oscillators, …"
20:23 < kanzure> "I watched Roy Walford miss out on grants because he did Biosphere II, and wrote popular books. [...] And even Jared Diamond outgrew UCLA, though he had his ducks in a row, and he did everything right as an metabolism specialist."
20:23 < kanzure> metabolism? i wouldn't have guessed
20:33 < kanzure> "Next year companies will make final investment decisions (FIDs) on a total of 800 oil and gas projects worth $500 billion and totalling nearly 60 billion barrels of oil equivalent, according to data from Norwegian consultancy Rystad Energy."
20:44 < kanzure> "The brains of these early hominins were about the same size as that of a chimpanzee, although it has been suggested that this was the time in which the human SRGAP2 gene doubled, producing a more rapid wiring of the frontal cortex"
20:45 < kanzure> "This protein in humans has been duplicated three times in the human genome in the past 3.4 million years, one duplication 3.4 million years ago (mya) called SRGAP2B, a second duplication 2.4 mya (called SRGAP2C) and one final duplication ~1 mya (SRGAP2D). The ancestral gene SRGAP2 is found in all mammals and the human copy has been renamed SRGAP2A. The 2.4 million year-old duplication (SRGAP2C) expresses a shortened version that 100% of ...
20:45 < kanzure> ... humans possess.[6] This shortened version SRGAP2C inhibits the function of the ancestral copy SRGAP2A and (1) allows faster migration of neurons by interfering with filopodia production and (2) slows the rate of synaptic maturation and increases the density of synapses in the cerebral cortex.[4]"
20:45 < kanzure> (from )
20:46 < kanzure> "This increase in human brain size is equivalent to every generation having an additional 125,000 neurons more than their parents."
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21:51 < kanzure> "mindreading (also known as ‘theory of mind’)"
22:11 < kanzure> https://events.ccc.de/congress/2014/Fahrplan/events/5956.html
22:11 < kanzure> "In this presentation we will be discussing the path we took to successfully develop our own private server for Metal Gear Online on the Sony PlayStation 2 and PlayStation 3 video game consoles. Interestingly enough this was a private server that was developed after the original was already taken offline, so we did not have a live active server to help with the reverse engineering. Due to this we ran into some issues but ultimately ...
22:11 < kanzure> ... succeeded. We believe that the details of the techniques that we used will prove useful for anyone attempting similar actions in the future. The topics that we will discuss in this talk will cover a wide range of high and low level issues related to network protocol and binary reversing."
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01:34 < ebowden> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168010214002119
01:34 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20Disruption%20of%20striatal-enriched%20protein%20tyrosine%20phosphatase%20%28STEP%29%20function%20in%20neuropsychiatric%20disorders%0A%20.pdf
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07:09 < kanzure> fenn: universal psychometrics http://users.dsic.upv.es/~flip/papers/TR-upsycho2012.pdf
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07:35 < kanzure> hehe "While the results show that some improvement can be shown because of the enriched human context, animal abilities are limited by their genes. What about machines? Things are more complex here. Theoretically, it is possible to construct a machine such that it is dumb until an appropriate “training” signal is received, when it changes into another state where it becomes intelligent. In fact, for any universal Turing machine (UTM) ...
07:35 < kanzure> ... there is an input —a program— such that the machine becomes any other machine, e.g., a machine with any degree of actual intelligence. So we could loosely say that any UTM has maximal potential intelligence (and the same applies for any cognitive ability). However, if we construct a second machine such that this second state is accessed much more easily (without the need of a very specific input), we can intuitively say that the ...
07:35 < kanzure> ... second machine has more potential intelligence."
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12:12 < kanzure> jrayhawk: this thing argues that human cognitive ability is sexually selected because it indicates disease resistance http://phthiraptera.info/Publications/47267.pdf
12:13 < kanzure> i'm not really sure if that's strong enough though
12:13 < kanzure> i would imagine that not being dead would be a good enough indicator
12:27 < bbrittain> paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304420313001242
12:28 < paperbot> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20Biogenic%20halocarbons%20in%20young%20Arctic%20sea%20ice%20and%20frost%20flowers%0A%20.pdf
12:30 < bbrittain> :/
12:31 < bbrittain> new plan, never graduate, keep my school paper access
12:31 < bbrittain> nmz787: ^
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13:08 < kanzure> that is a good plan
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13:30 < kanzure> "Artificial selection on relative brain size in the guppy reveals costs and benefits of evolving a larger brain" http://users.dsic.upv.es/~flip/papers/MINDS-MACHINES-potential.pdf
13:33 < kanzure> whoops, how about http://www.iee.unibe.ch/unibe/philnat/biology/zoologie/content/e7493/e7854/e355359/e373691/KotrschalCurrentBiol2013.pdf
13:33 < poppingtonic> .title
13:33 < yoleaux> poppingtonic: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page.
13:33 < poppingtonic> oops
13:35 < kanzure> "Relative brain size was already 9% larger in the upward- compared to the downward-selected lines after two generations of selection"
13:35 < kanzure> hehe just two generations
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14:03 < poppingtonic> i'm gonna have to read these...
14:04 < kanzure> also try http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Human-specific%20transcriptional%20networks%20in%20the%20brain.pdf
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14:09 < jrayhawk> "in fact, IQ-heritability studies measure
14:09 < jrayhawk> the heritability of disease resistance to some ex-
14:09 < jrayhawk> tent"
14:09 < jrayhawk> that was the only insightful thing in this entire paper
14:15 < kanzure> can you specify how shit their hypothesis was?
14:16 < kanzure> i'm really strugging to postulate credible selection mechanisms for human cognitive abilities in evolutionary history
14:16 < kanzure> *struggling
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15:16 < andytoshi> kanzure: leading idea is politics no?
15:16 < andytoshi> outsmart everyone to be the harem master
15:18 < kanzure> but where did that come from?
15:18 < kanzure> here are the mechanisms that wikipedia proposes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_human_intelligence#Models
15:20 < kanzure> "He argues that the manifestations of intelligence such as language, music and art did not evolve because of their utilitarian value to the survival of ancient hominids. Rather, intelligence may have been a fitness indicator." (lame)
15:20 < andytoshi> that's lame
15:20 < namespace> Lame.
15:20 < andytoshi> intelligence is a fully general advantage
15:20 < kanzure> "Intelligence as a disease resistance signal"
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15:20 < namespace> "Intelligence is a fitness indicator" is like saying "Being able to grow arms is a fitness indicator"
15:21 < kanzure> "The group benefits of intelligence have apparent utility in increasing the survival potential of a group"
15:21 < kanzure> yeah so those were the best ideas known to man
15:21 < kanzure> for why human cognitive ability was selected for
15:21 < kanzure> pretty pathetic
15:21 < namespace> Well to be fair.
15:21 < namespace> Those are so bad that we're looking at something on the order of "Nobody really thought about it."
15:21 < namespace> Rather than "Somebody seriously thought about it and they're an idiot."
15:22 < kanzure> these have references, so they thought about it enough to put words onto paper
15:22 < namespace> D:
15:22 < namespace> -1 Faith in humanity
15:23 < kanzure> andytoshi: i was thinking about some mechanism earlier today related to "bride price", where groups of humans bought phenotypes/genotypes with resources
15:24 < kanzure> andytoshi: and maybe cognitive abilities are selected by that sort of group-to-group genetic trade over time
15:24 < kanzure> however, this is not a thorough explanation and it does not feel right to me yet
15:26 < andytoshi> kanzure: well, some of this did happen in the middle ages ... i think this is why white women are hotter than white men?
15:26 < andytoshi> because they would "buy" brides by being royalty?
15:27 < kanzure> women are more attractive because you and i are heterosexual
15:27 < andytoshi> hmm, that might be it
15:27 < kanzure> nice try
15:27 < andytoshi> ;)
15:27 < namespace> kanzure: :P
15:27 < kanzure> "bride price" was happening long before the middle ages
15:27 < namespace> I was about to say "They are?"
15:28 < kanzure> code of hammurabi from ~5000 years ago has rules written in stone about buying mates
15:29 < andytoshi> ok, so, back to intelligence ... istm that no matter what you are doing, it is better to do it more intelligently
15:30 < kanzure> you may be interested in this paper sometime: http://users.dsic.upv.es/~flip/papers/TR-upsycho2012.pdf
15:30 < kanzure> (universal psychometrics for turing machines)
15:31 < kanzure> general intelligence certainly confers lots of survival benefit compared to not having a brain
15:32 < andytoshi> i'm reading the wiki article .. it actually surprises me that intelligence is not a slam dunk
15:32 < kanzure> instead of waiting around for millions of years to get some other kind of adaptation in a species, adaptive behavior in a single lifetime is much better
15:32 < kanzure> what do you mean intelligence as a slam dunk?
15:33 < andytoshi> i mean, it is so beneficial that it should appear in any species with extra resources to support it
15:33 < andytoshi> and since it leads to having extra resources you get a feedback loop
15:33 < kanzure> well, brains in general do appear in many species
15:34 < andytoshi> hmm, yeah, i guess that's evidence that i'm right in a really limited way
15:34 < namespace> General intelligence will not help you much as a fish?
15:34 < kanzure> many properties of the human brain are highly conserved in chimpanzees and gorilla, which are ancestors from more than a million years back
15:35 < kanzure> and other more basic brain parts are conserved in mammals in general too
15:35 < namespace> I mean from what we've seen with humans, general intelligence seems to have a very long setup time compared to a canned instincts/brain sort of deal, so if you have relatively short lifespans its not worth the investment, in fact it's a net negative.
15:36 < andytoshi> kanzure: so this gives credence to the "politics" theory (which on the wiki page i think is dunbar's claim)
15:36 < kanzure> just because it's beneficial does not mean that natural selection will stumbe into it
15:36 < kanzure> *stumble
15:37 < namespace> Like part of why humans work is that we live a relatively long time.
15:37 < andytoshi> kanzure: sure, but i would suggest that if it did, it'd latch on unconditionally..
15:37 < andytoshi> namespace has some good arguments why i'm wrong
15:37 < kanzure> politics is an okay direction but i'd have to see more,
15:37 < kanzure> dunbar's version is pretty lame
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15:38 < andytoshi> long setup time, big brains make childbirth hard (and babies come out still useless), the brain is a massive resource hog..
15:38 < kanzure> he posits some direct proportionality to brain volume
15:38 < kanzure> everyone focuses on brain size for some reason
15:38 < andytoshi> oh bleh
15:38 < namespace> kanzure: I wasn't saying that.
15:38 < namespace> kanzure: I just said that it takes a very long time to go from baby to adult human, maybe this is a necessary component?
15:38 < kanzure> there's definitely high resource costs to human brains
15:39 < namespace> Like if you're a fish, you don't have time to learn how not to get eaten, you need to know that from day one.
15:39 < namespace> The ocean is too dangerous for it to be worth learning better evasive tactics with general intelligence.
15:39 < kanzure> selection mechanisms are things like, "in human evolutionary history, aliens showed up on the planet and administered general intelligence tests, and then had selective mating"
15:40 < namespace> kanzure: Hmm, have we dug up any ancient SAT's yet? :P
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15:40 < kanzure> right, that's a highly implausible one
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15:41 < kanzure> "Dunbar theorized that "this limit is a direct function of relative neocortex size, and that this in turn limits group size ... the limit imposed by neocortical processing capacity is simply on the number of individuals with whom a stable inter-personal relationship can be maintained.""
15:41 < kanzure> volume of neocortex -_-
15:41 < namespace> Not to mention that, you have octopuses, which are relatively intelligent as far as seacritter go, but they haven't taken over the world or anything because they're stuck underwater with prehensile limbs.
15:41 < namespace> There's a lot of important hardware that needs to be comorbid with intelligence for world domination.
15:42 < kanzure> an octopus does not have general intelligence as far as we know
15:42 < kanzure> so i don't know why you are mentioning them
15:42 < namespace> Right.
15:42 < namespace> They're the most intelligent non-mammal IIRC?
15:42 < namespace> Was going with my fish theme.
15:43 < kanzure> i don't know what you're taking about at all
15:43 < kanzure> *talking
15:44 < namespace> andytoshi had a hypothesis that general intelligence is such a benefit that we should expect to see it in everything capable of supporting it. I'm pointing out that even though octopi are relatively intelligent, it doesn't actually matter if they get more intelligent because they don't really have enough ability to manipulate their environment for it to matter.
15:44 < namespace> I didn't really explain it very well I'm sorry.
15:45 < kanzure> oh, well andytoshi's hypothesis is wrong because obviously only one species so far has general intelligence
15:45 < kanzure> anthropics, yo
15:45 < namespace> Yup.
15:45 < namespace> If we lived in the universe where it was true, that is what we would observe.
15:45 < namespace> At the same time.
15:45 < kanzure> so nothing about manipulating the environment or whatever
15:45 < namespace> Knowing it's wrong isn't really enough in some cases, knowing *why* something is wrong can be important information.
15:45 < kanzure> parapalegics are still intelligent
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15:50 < namespace> Parapalegics are such as a function of their environment, if you take parapalegic eggs or sperm and make babies with them you will get healthy children.
15:50 < andytoshi> there was a lesswrong article about the politics thing, i can't seem to find it, it should have some good references..
15:51 < andytoshi> something about one monkey betraying another after pretending to be a servant and eliezier was like "a human would've seen that coming a mile away [and not gotten killed]"
15:52 < kanzure> monkeys are just as old, or even older, than we are
15:53 < kanzure> the ability to buy genotypes/phenotypes is something that hasn't happened anywhere else in evolutionary history
15:54 < kanzure> although maybe that only works for the past 70,000 to 100,000 years of human evolution
15:54 < kanzure> before which hominid remains are not seen with valuables or posessions as much
15:55 < kanzure> oh, 500k years actually. hmm. that's more likely.
15:55 < kanzure> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_modernity
15:55 < kanzure> oh, that's 50k. uh...
15:55 * namespace idly wonders if there's enough information in the universe left to determine this to our satisfaction
15:56 < kanzure> uh sure there is
15:56 < namespace> Yes of course what am I even saying.
15:56 < kanzure> all you have to do is come up with some plausible mechanisms and then think hard about them
15:56 < kanzure> then you can test on monkeys
15:56 < namespace> I doubt we'll actually get to the testing on monkeys stage.
15:56 < namespace> Because ethics.
15:57 < kanzure> yes, raising monkeys is so fucking unethical
15:57 < namespace> Do you think an ethics review board would okay it if the explicit goal was to get human level intelligence out of it?
15:57 < namespace> I'm not saying I agree with that, but I doubt they would.
15:58 < kanzure> an ethics review board is not the crown jewel of being ethical -_-
15:58 < namespace> When I said 'ethics' it was shorthand for such.
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15:59 < kanzure> besides, you hardly know the details of my idea, so from my point of view you're the one being unethical here
16:00 < namespace> Um what?
16:00 < kanzure> you heard me :)
16:00 < namespace> I did.
16:00 < namespace> And what you said seems to be relying on assumptions that are not true.
16:00 < kanzure> i believe it is unethical to appeal to authority (especially "ethics" authorities)
16:00 < kanzure> especially for ideas that haven't even been elaborated
16:00 < kanzure> "authorities"
16:01 < namespace> That statement was in the same vein as if you'd said you had a cure for aging and I'd said:
16:01 < namespace> "Oh I bet the FDA will skewer you over it."
16:01 < namespace> And then you go:
16:01 < namespace> "APPEAL TO AUTHORITY"
16:01 < namespace> And I go:
16:01 < namespace> "Um that's not what I-"
16:01 < namespace> "UNETHICAL"
16:01 < kanzure> yes and?
16:02 < namespace> I'm saying that you're attacking me for no good reason?
16:02 < kanzure> in general i tend to attack bad ideas
16:03 < namespace> Cynical observations about how society will treat things are now Bad Ideas?
16:04 < kanzure> no, it is a bad idea for you to suggest some threat vector that is totally superfluous at this stage of idea development
16:04 < namespace> Well okay if you insist.
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16:05 < kanzure> also, it would be super unfortunate if the fda started sending nastygrams and lawsuit notices over just talking about nutrition
16:05 < kanzure> or if ethics review boards were to have jurisdiction over ideation
16:06 < kanzure> namespace: http://web.archive.org/web/20130709183013/http://www.maxmore.com/extprn3.htm
16:06 < namespace> kanzure: Um, you're starting to take what I said into wholly new territory from where I'd started. Which was that I'm not sure we can in practice test on monkeys, which I do not think is a bad observation to make?
16:06 < kanzure> namespace: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration
16:06 < kanzure> anyone can own a monkey man
16:07 < namespace> ...
16:07 < namespace> How does this monkey man feel about this?
16:07 < kanzure> i meant to put a comma after monkey
16:07 < kanzure> and i did not
16:08 < namespace> *the monkey man
16:11 < kanzure> andytoshi: so one idea is that if there is a good psychometric test for general intelligence, or a good definition, then you could just run a genetic algorithm on some fancypants hardware for a while and see what happens
16:12 < kanzure> andytoshi: alternatively, if you knew what the selection mechanisms may have been in human history, then you could replicate those sorts of effects on software programs
16:12 -!- rk[1] [~rak@opensource.cse.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:12 < kanzure> you could even have things approximating gene trading (software trading) between different agents in your pool
16:13 < andytoshi> those both sound really computationally hard because humans have been manipulating their environment since forever
16:14 < kanzure> the above paper about universal psychometric testing for universa turing machines has some suggestions for the testing aspect
16:14 < kanzure> but the downside is that you would need to make a bunch of tests using their suggested format (it's related to kolmogorov complexity)
16:16 < kanzure> maybe you could arbitrarily generate tests automatically
16:18 < kanzure> er, this is clearly the "iterative" approach, i don't know why i just suggested that
16:18 < kanzure> i retract my test generation statement
16:18 < kanzure> except to the extent that you pick "good" tests, and then just have a collection of "good" tests
16:24 < namespace> Burnin8 wants us to move the convo into #lesswrong to get the crap out of there
16:24 < namespace> I'm not sure this is actually a good idea, personally.
16:25 < Burnin8> depends on whether you want more participants or not
16:25 * namespace was done with it, personally
16:25 < namespace> I got the impression I was giving Kanzure the impression I'm dumb, so I stopped.