--- Log opened Fri Apr 01 00:00:44 2022
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01:35 < darosior> Is there an instance of a fragment that would be 'm' (non-malleable) without being 's' (needs sig)? It seems to me some property rules could be redundant
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01:57 < darosior> The website and the cpp implementation differ for the 'e' property of or_b()
01:59 < darosior> The website and the cpp implementation differ for the 'e' and 'f' properties of or_d()
02:02 < darosior> The Rust implem seems to be following the website (although the naming is a bit confusing). cc sanket1729
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02:15 < darosior> For or_d() actually it only differs for the 'e' property, and i think it makes sense that e=eX*eZ (like in the cpp implem).
02:17 < darosior> For or_b() too i think the cpp implem is right. Cause i don't see how we can ensure it is 'e' if not both X and Z. The website says it is just always 'e'.
02:27 < darosior> The website also doesn't specify when subs need to be non-malleable in the requirements for non-malleability. Was that on purpose?
02:33 < darosior> It also seems that https://github.com/sipa/miniscript/blob/a2b7b35d765c11aa95d880fdcb3813f3b801d7fd/bitcoin/script/miniscript.cpp#L192 is not implementing 'e=e_x*f_y+f_x*e_y' as the comments states, but 'e=(e_x+e_y)*(f_x+f_y)'. That sounds wrong as for instance if in X is 'ef', or_i(X, Y) shouldn't necessarily be 'e'.
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03:04 < darosior> For andor() the cpp implem and the website differ for 'e'. I think the implem is right (you need X to be 'e', too).
03:14 < darosior> Same for thresh(), the cpp implem requires all to be 'es' whereas the website only all to be 's'.
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08:18 < sanket1729> > Is there an instance of a fragment that would be 'm' (non-malleable) without being 's' (needs sig)?
08:18 < sanket1729> darosior: yes
08:18 < sanket1729> If there is only one satisfaction without a signature
08:19 < sanket1729> consider: older(10)
08:24 < sanket1729> > The website also doesn't specify when subs need to be non-malleable in the requirements for non-malleability. Was that on purpose? 
08:25 <@sipa> Malleability as defined by the website isn't a type property, it's a requirement.
08:25 <@sipa> Like validity.
08:25 < sanket1729> Yup, was about to say it
08:28 < sanket1729> darosior: I think all of the discrepancies can be explained if we assume non-malleability as requirement. Some property formulas are simplification based on pre-requites.
08:29 <@sipa> Right, s/d/e only apply if you're talking about non-malleable miniscript in the first place (as they're just there to help reason about malleability).
08:29 <@sipa> s/e/f I mean
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13:12 < sanket1729> sipa: jeremyrubin: Interestingly if you traverse in any DFS order, the generated taproot merkle root would be the same.
13:12 < sanket1729> Sorry if this was discussed earlier. But I just had that realization now.
13:12 < sanket1729> Because we compare hashes and don't really know whether something was left or right
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14:49 < jeremyrubin> Sanket that's not quite true I think
14:49 < jeremyrubin> Oops sanket1729
14:50 < jeremyrubin> Things are only sorted at the pairwise level right?
14:50 < jeremyrubin> Eg imagine a balanced binary tree of size 2**n
14:50 <@sipa> he said any DFS order, not any order at all
14:50 < jeremyrubin> Shuffling the nodes and traversing left to right should give you diff hashes right 
14:51 < jeremyrubin> He later said 
14:51 < jeremyrubin> "Because we compare hashes and don't really know whether something was left or right"
14:51 < jeremyrubin> So I think he meant that the lexicographic sort fixes it
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--- Log closed Sat Apr 02 00:00:44 2022