--- Day changed Sun Aug 05 2018 00:01 -!- shreyansh_k25 [~shreyansh@88.234.255.126] has joined #secp256k1 00:02 -!- shreyansh_k25 [~shreyansh@88.234.255.126] has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 00:11 -!- Phanes [~Phanes@121.191.15.63] has joined #secp256k1 00:12 -!- Phanes [~Phanes@121.191.15.63] has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 00:13 -!- Jan\1 [~Jan\@190.18.20.117] has joined #secp256k1 00:14 -!- Jan\1 [~Jan\@190.18.20.117] has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 00:16 -!- Guest70629 [~Fearful@pc-62-100-44-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #secp256k1 00:16 -!- Guest70629 [~Fearful@pc-62-100-44-190.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:26 -!- Guest1934 [~Guest1934@37.114.189.10] has joined #secp256k1 00:27 -!- Guest1934 [~Guest1934@37.114.189.10] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:27 -!- DenSchub21 [~DenSchub@37.114.191.83] has joined #secp256k1 00:28 -!- DenSchub21 [~DenSchub@37.114.191.83] has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 00:37 -!- yawkat7 [~yawkat@134.19.230.241] has joined #secp256k1 00:38 -!- nOgAnOo [~nOgAnOo@mo-71-50-31-146.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #secp256k1 00:38 -!- nOgAnOo [~nOgAnOo@mo-71-50-31-146.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))] 00:40 -!- yawkat7 [~yawkat@134.19.230.241] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:58 -!- danielhuman [~danielhum@211.248.162.133] has joined #secp256k1 01:00 -!- danielhuman [~danielhum@211.248.162.133] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:12 -!- eth221 [~eth2@138-204-70-14.wantel.net.br] has joined #secp256k1 01:15 -!- eth221 [~eth2@138-204-70-14.wantel.net.br] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:24 -!- prettymuchbryce1 [~prettymuc@156.197.170.187] has joined #secp256k1 01:28 -!- prettymuchbryce1 [~prettymuc@156.197.170.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 01:31 -!- SporkWitch13 [~SporkWitc@186.7.16.207] has joined #secp256k1 01:37 -!- SporkWitch13 [~SporkWitc@186.7.16.207] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 02:28 -!- nortoh [~nortoh@171.5.113.238] has joined #secp256k1 02:29 -!- nortoh [~nortoh@171.5.113.238] has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 02:33 -!- Caraway29 [~Caraway@37.114.169.102] has joined #secp256k1 02:38 -!- Caraway29 [~Caraway@37.114.169.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:49 -!- RussellB2817 [~RussellB2@2406:e006:44b5:0:d4c0:3c0:7695:99e7] has joined #secp256k1 02:50 -!- RussellB2817 [~RussellB2@2406:e006:44b5:0:d4c0:3c0:7695:99e7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:00 -!- __idiot__ [~goirc@121.157.52.159] has joined #secp256k1 03:02 -!- __idiot__ [~goirc@121.157.52.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:03 -!- abrotman12 [~abrotman@58.120.92.80] has joined #secp256k1 03:04 -!- abrotman12 [~abrotman@58.120.92.80] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:07 -!- johtso [~johtso@2804:18:4827:e300:1675:344:8777:52dc] has joined #secp256k1 04:14 -!- johtso [~johtso@2804:18:4827:e300:1675:344:8777:52dc] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 04:18 -!- PolarizedIons0 [~Polarized@156.222.47.42] has joined #secp256k1 04:19 -!- PolarizedIons0 [~Polarized@156.222.47.42] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:35 -!- ken2812221 [~User@180.217.182.131] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:36 -!- ken2812221 [~User@180.217.138.248] has joined #secp256k1 04:51 -!- Soni17 [~Soni@37.45.137.19] has joined #secp256k1 04:57 -!- Soni17 [~Soni@37.45.137.19] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 05:00 -!- BackUP20 [~BackUP@78.100.244.34] has joined #secp256k1 05:01 -!- BackUP20 [~BackUP@78.100.244.34] has quit [K-Lined] 05:03 -!- xous26 [~xous@110.77.214.149] has joined #secp256k1 05:03 -!- xous26 [~xous@110.77.214.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:05 -!- orliesaurus21 [~orliesaur@113.186.17.49] has joined #secp256k1 05:05 -!- orliesaurus21 [~orliesaur@113.186.17.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:47 -!- stephen876 [~stephen87@211.236.140.84] has joined #secp256k1 05:48 -!- stephen876 [~stephen87@211.236.140.84] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:00 < andytoshi> gmaxwell: russell is saying that in the non-batch case (leave R in projective/jacobian coords) the code change if the verification equation is changed is trivial (the computed R will have same x coord but different jacobi symbol) 06:01 < andytoshi> roconnor: the current batch verification equation is -sum_i r_i*s_i*G =? sum_i ( r_i*R_i + e_i*P_i ) ... so there is actually only one negation right now 06:01 < andytoshi> (actually, my code inexplicably negates all three of those terms, but that's an easy fix) 06:27 -!- tinyhippo3 [~tinyhippo@211.59.140.60] has joined #secp256k1 06:27 -!- drh16 [~drh@37.114.191.75] has joined #secp256k1 06:28 -!- tinyhippo3 [~tinyhippo@211.59.140.60] has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))] 06:29 -!- drh16 [~drh@37.114.191.75] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:30 * waxwing suspects andytoshi has a contract where he gets paid per minus sign 06:32 < roconnor> andytoshi: I think you have incorrectly written the batch verification. 06:32 < andytoshi> roconnor: i must have incorrectly written signing as well then 06:32 < roconnor> I mean in the chat. 06:32 < roconnor> https://github.com/sipa/bips/blob/bip-schnorr/bip-schnorr.mediawiki in the bip it says: 06:33 < andytoshi> so, here r_i are randomizers 06:33 < roconnor> Fail if (s1 + a2s2 + ... + ausu)G ≠ R1 + a2R2 + ... + auRu + e1P1 + (a2e2)P2 + ... + (aueu)Pu. 06:33 < roconnor> so the a's are the randomizsers. 06:33 < roconnor> but there is no negation sign in front of the sum of the si's. 06:33 < andytoshi> ah yep you're right 06:34 < andytoshi> not sure why i typed that 06:34 < roconnor> But your equation is what it should be changed to (not what I said in my email though) 06:35 < roconnor> The verificaiton equation should be simply R + sG + eP = 0. Nice simple sum all one one size equal to zero. 06:35 -!- rs-afk [~rs-afk@123.20.20.2] has joined #secp256k1 06:35 < roconnor> Because the equality check involves a negation anyway. 06:35 < andytoshi> i have no strong feelings in any direction about this 06:36 < roconnor> so we will want to get rid of equality checks and replace it with just a zero check. 06:36 < roconnor> I do realize we are talking about trivial amounts of savings here. 06:37 -!- simpleauthority2 [~simpleaut@pc-129-123-100-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #secp256k1 06:38 -!- simpleauthority2 [~simpleaut@pc-129-123-100-190.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:39 < roconnor> Basically if the signer negates the 's' value from what what the bip prosoal currently is, I am moderately sure that will make life easier for the verifier (This is not what I said in my email where I proposed to negate e). 06:39 -!- rs-afk [~rs-afk@123.20.20.2] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:42 < roconnor> (I didn't realize that c^(p+1)/4) is always the quadratic residue, so computing the non-quadratic reside involves a negation). 06:43 < roconnor> (even though the BIP clearly said this in footnote 7) 06:46 < andytoshi> fyi there is a channel #bitmetas about this collection of docs, which has a slightly different set of people 06:46 < andytoshi> nice, so, where we've landed (assuming we haven't made a mistake) does look much simpler than the existing draft 06:58 < roconnor> bipmetas? 07:01 < andytoshi> no, for some reason it's bit 07:01 < andytoshi> i guess bitcoin 07:12 -!- k6ka9 [~k6ka@fj094.net061120225.thn.ne.jp] has joined #secp256k1 07:13 -!- rwg20 [~rwg@58.236.169.69] has joined #secp256k1 07:13 < roconnor> For the R + sG + eP = 0 proposal, the single signature check is to compute Q := (sG + eP). check that the x-coordinate of Q is equal to r, and theck that the y coordinate of Q is a quadradic non-residue. 07:14 -!- k6ka9 [~k6ka@fj094.net061120225.thn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:14 < roconnor> While computing a NR requires an extra negation over computing a QR, I think checking if a value is a NR is the same work as checking if a value is QR? 07:14 -!- rwg20 [~rwg@58.236.169.69] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:17 < roconnor> It must be the same to check because checking a value is NR is equal to checking (not QR). 07:18 < roconnor> and I'll accept that negating a single bit is too trivial :D 07:32 -!- bernalex11 [~bernalex@node-rok.pool-118-172.dynamic.totbb.net] has joined #secp256k1 07:32 -!- bernalex11 [~bernalex@node-rok.pool-118-172.dynamic.totbb.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:34 < andytoshi> yeah, checking QR is the same cost no matter what result yo want 07:34 < andytoshi> except for the one-bit inversion :P 07:37 -!- jcjordyn12014 [~jcjordyn1@202.105.147.50] has joined #secp256k1 07:37 -!- jcjordyn12014 [~jcjordyn1@202.105.147.50] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:45 -!- lunaaa [~lunaaa@fp9f1cecbf.knge323.ap.nuro.jp] has joined #secp256k1 07:45 -!- ovrstorm [~ovrstorm@206.214.9.241] has joined #secp256k1 07:47 -!- lunaaa [~lunaaa@fp9f1cecbf.knge323.ap.nuro.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:50 -!- ovrstorm [~ovrstorm@206.214.9.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:06 -!- lolmac [~lolmac@181.225.29.157] has joined #secp256k1 08:12 -!- lolmac [~lolmac@181.225.29.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:13 -!- Alistair21 [~Alistair@134.0.198.198] has joined #secp256k1 08:18 -!- Alistair21 [~Alistair@134.0.198.198] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:44 <@gmaxwell> 07:34:29 < andytoshi> yeah, checking QR is the same cost no matter what result yo want 08:44 <@gmaxwell> No, it is not the same cost for the batch verifier. 08:44 <@gmaxwell> For the batch verifier you don't check, you assume and the verification only holds if its true. 08:44 <@gmaxwell> And it costs one more negation per signature to use a non-QR. 08:45 <@gmaxwell> The reason we chose the QR instead of non-QR was because it was the natural output of the sqrt. 09:02 -!- Theking^16 [~Theking^@113.172.190.254] has joined #secp256k1 09:02 < andytoshi> ah yep you're right 09:02 < andytoshi> roconnor: the current batch-verification equation is sG =? R + eP (times a randomizer) which i've implemented as sG - R - eP = 0 .... if we swapped +/- in the verification equation this would be sG - R + eP = 0 09:03 < andytoshi> i _should've_ implemented -sG + R + eP = 0, which is one negation for the whole batch 09:03 < andytoshi> with roconnor's idea i'd be forced to negate R (or negate eP, depending how i did it) on every sig 09:06 -!- Theking^16 [~Theking^@113.172.190.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:07 <@gmaxwell> I like the idea of arranging things to avoid a negation, but it doesn't make sense to do at the cost of a per-signature negation for batch. 09:28 < roconnor> andytoshi: My new prosoal is to have the signer "pre-negate" s. 09:29 < roconnor> andytoshi: so you won't have to do any negations for batch verification. 09:29 < roconnor> batch verification of (aP + bQ + cR) = 0 is easy in general. 09:30 < roconnor> just multiply each LHS by a random number. 09:30 < roconnor> add them all up 09:30 < roconnor> and see if they are still 0. 09:30 < roconnor> no equality tests needed. 09:30 < roconnor> only one zero test. 09:31 < roconnor> There will be no negation, per-batch or otherwise. 09:31 <@gmaxwell> thats what our prior batch verification implements though with - instad of +. :) I don't see how it works if you negate s alone. 09:32 < roconnor> andytoshi: says he's currently implemented sG - R - eP = 0 09:33 < roconnor> suppose s were already negated 09:33 < roconnor> then you'd be doing -sG - R - eP = 0 test. 09:33 < roconnor> but -sG - R - eP = 0 if and only if sG + R + eP = 0 09:34 < roconnor> so you can now do the test without negating anything! 09:34 <@gmaxwell> ah, right. 09:34 < roconnor> ... I'm explaining this very badly I think. 09:34 <@gmaxwell> yes, that seems fine. 09:34 < roconnor> It doesn't help that I keep changing my mind on what I'm proposing. 09:35 < sipa> right; and the non-batch verifier then works by testing for jacobi symol -1 for (sG + eP) 09:35 < roconnor> sipa: precisely 09:35 < sipa> i think this works 09:36 <@gmaxwell> yes, that sounds fine. Not that avoiding some negations actually matters much, but why not. 09:36 < roconnor> I'm a little worried that I've expended more engery thinking about this than will be saved in computing power by implementing this proposal :D But I guess I'm saving billions of negation operations. 09:37 -!- Skunky21 [~Skunky@123.20.230.55] has joined #secp256k1 09:37 < sipa> a field negation is maybe 2 cpu cycles 09:39 <@gmaxwell> probably time would be better spent understanding dettman's optimized inverse and figuring out how to build a very fast jacobi symbol out of it. 09:39 <@gmaxwell> :P 09:42 < roconnor> sipa: a CPU can do 5 64-bit subtractions in 2 cycles? 09:44 < sipa> roconnor: 2 per cycle at least, i think 09:44 -!- Skunky21 [~Skunky@123.20.230.55] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 09:44 < roconnor> okay but don't forget about the call to secp256k1_fe_normalize_weak. 09:51 -!- Jan\22 [~Jan\@117.40.185.78] has joined #secp256k1 09:52 -!- Jan\22 [~Jan\@117.40.185.78] has quit [Remote 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