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[~pglazman@c-73-71-224-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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ZZZzzz…] 11:30 -!- pglazman [~pglazman@c-73-71-224-94.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined ##taproot-activation 12:07 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:26 < harding> michaelfolkson: re your email, I don't recall stating a preference for either approach, although maybe I did or maybe something I said in discussing the tradeoffs could have sounded like a preference. 12:30 <@michaelfolkson> harding: I had you down as slight preference for block height based on https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21377#issuecomment-792220340 but not NACKing anything 12:31 <@michaelfolkson> "My preference would be for whatever solution is most preferred by reviewers." 12:32 <@michaelfolkson> And then https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21377#issuecomment-802336038 12:33 < harding> You saying that I preferred height doesn't seem like it should count as my preference. 12:34 <@michaelfolkson> "I completely agree that using block heights for the start and timeout parameters has advantages for this proposal (giving miners a known number of signaling periods) and that, as also mentioned in my email, getting BIP8 included in the code now would have advantages if Speedy Trial fails and we decide to use BIP8 as originally imagined for a follow-up activation attempt." 12:34 < harding> Yes, and in the previous paragraph I descibed the advantages of MTP. 12:35 < harding> When someone describes the advantages of two different approaches, you can't cherry pick one set of those advantages and use that to claim they support that one thing over the other thing. 12:35 <@michaelfolkson> If you state a preference as "what is preferred by reviewers" my assessment was that most reviewers had preference for block height. 12:35 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 12:36 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@205.209.28.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:37 <@michaelfolkson> If you want me to go through the PRs to tell you the exact numbers I can 12:37 <@michaelfolkson> But in terms of NACKs you weren't NACKing anything and there were very few NACKs 12:38 <@michaelfolkson> I think this is quibbling personally. But I can go through the PRs to total up the preferences for block height versus mix of block height and MTP if you want me to 12:39 < harding> I didn't say "preferred by most reviewers" I said "most preferred by reviewers", i.e. not the solution with the most votes but the solution that had rough consensus. IMO, we didn't get anywhere near reaching consensus until Tuesday. 12:39 <@michaelfolkson> "most preferred by reviewers" suggests to me totalling up slight preferences 12:40 <@michaelfolkson> You could have said least NACKs 12:40 <@michaelfolkson> You didn't 12:40 <@michaelfolkson> But as I said I think this is quibbling. If you think I mischaracterized your view it was a honest error 12:41 <@michaelfolkson> And given you weren't NACKing anything you weren't blocking progress on either PR 12:45 < harding> michaelfolkson: what is your current goal with regard to activation? 12:45 <@michaelfolkson> I'm sorry, I don't understand your question. What is my current goal? 12:47 <@michaelfolkson> I think #21377 has best chance of being merged into Core. And I think it is best for everyone if some activation code is merged into Core. So I would like to review that 12:47 < harding> A lot of your communictaion for the past few weeks has been negative towards the overall direction of discussion in this channel and on the PRs. You have a right to disagree with that direction, but it's been going on so long that I'm no longer sure what positive thing you're trying to work towards. 12:51 <@michaelfolkson> There are a lot of things I haven't been comfortable with. But I think we should discuss those privately or in public once (hopefully) activation code is merged and we have parameters finalized 12:51 <@michaelfolkson> I think #21377 being well reviewed and merged is a good outcome 12:55 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@ua-84-216-128-91.bbcust.telenor.se] has joined ##taproot-activation 12:55 < harding> Ok. Do you think your recent email is helping achieve that outcome? 12:56 <@michaelfolkson> Which email? My response to you or the update on the coin toss? 12:56 < harding> EIther one. 12:57 < roasbeef> cmon dude, even just the title of the email is super loaded to the point of just making a farce of the work up until now 12:57 < roasbeef> calling discussion a "circus" isn't helpful at all 12:58 <@michaelfolkson> I think if you asked an outside observer (or even a Core contributor trying to stay out of this, which I have) they would not be impressed 12:59 < harding> michaelfolkson: that wasn't my question. My question was whether you think your email is helping "#21377 being well reviewed and merged". 13:00 < roasbeef> you're drumming things up unnecessarily, you're the only one participating that has adopted such a denigrating tone to the work of others, if you don't want to be involved then simply step back, as harding mentioned above, I don't understand your goals at this point 13:01 <@michaelfolkson> harding: I wouldn't have written it if I thought it was a net negative 13:02 <@michaelfolkson> But I would ask you to consider the wider community who are following this and who we will be asking to run this software and what they're thinking 13:03 < jeremyrubin> I felt it was valuable to put together some material in response to some of the concerns raised, but don't think the mailing list needs a wall of text. Some collected thoughts here https://gist.github.com/JeremyRubin/fa30a3124665d9e42d0171de7c0d809d 13:03 <@michaelfolkson> NACKing things and then organizing coin tosses is not a good look 13:03 * roasbeef rolls his eyes 13:03 <@michaelfolkson> And it wastes everyone's time 13:03 <@michaelfolkson> (which apparently some people here don't care about) 13:04 < roasbeef> you seem to just be presuming a lot, and somehow framing a coin toss as some sort of corrupt decision making technique? I don't get it dude, it was an impasse, and in the end wasn't even really needed 13:04 < roasbeef> I don't think you really understand what a "NACK" means in the context of rough consensus either 13:05 < roasbeef> if you don't want to engage constructively, then idk what to say, you're just continuing to damage your reputation in the public key 13:05 <@michaelfolkson> There are a number of people who aren't impressed, not just me 13:05 <@michaelfolkson> e.g. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21393#issuecomment-815698514 13:06 < roasbeef> that's fine, you link to maaku who holds an uninfomred opinion re taproot that has been dubunked many times, even the points in that comment have been shown to be unfounded 13:07 <@michaelfolkson> So all his other views are debunked automatically too? 13:07 < harding> michaelfolkson: it sounds like your goal is something different than "#21377 being well reviewed and merged", maybe a goal that involves impressing people? Would you like to try again to state your goal? 13:07 < roasbeef> idk if you've ever worked on a large software project before, but sometimes things don't always go 100% how you like them to, and what matters is the end result of shipping something, just because things aren't being done *exactly* as you want, doesn't mean the path is incorrect 13:08 < roasbeef> when there's disagreement, it's imperative to put aside ones ego and push for the prevaling direction so forward progress can be made, throwing a tantrum when things don't go 100% as you prescribe is just child like behavior 13:09 <@michaelfolkson> We'll have this discussion once (hopefully) activation code is merged and parameters are finalized. I haven't got anything else to add until that happens 13:10 -!- valwal [~valwal@pool-96-239-17-242.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined ##taproot-activation 13:15 < jeremyrubin> noting that not adding anything until after activation code merged + paramaters finalized seems like planning to "come out the woodwork weeks later with either an alternative proposal or a criticism for how the details of Speedy Trial were finalized." 13:19 <@michaelfolkson> An alternative proposal won't be considered once activation code is merged and parameters are finalized (whether it be mine or anybody else's) 13:21 <@michaelfolkson> In terms of criticism I'm being criticized here for sending emails with criticism in them. So I guess on criticism I can't win whether I say it now or after parameters are finalized 13:21 -!- _andrewtoth_ [~andrewtot@gateway/tor-sasl/andrewtoth] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:22 -!- _andrewtoth_ [~andrewtot@gateway/tor-sasl/andrewtoth] has joined ##taproot-activation 13:23 <@michaelfolkson> I'm happy to defend everything I've said after activation code is (hopefully) merged and parameters finalized 13:25 < shesek> I have to agree that the ML post does seem unnecessarily antagonistic and does not help the consensus building process 13:28 <@michaelfolkson> I think (I could be wrong) that if #21377 can't get merged we're not getting consensus however antagonistic I am or aren't 13:30 < harding> Is there some reason you think #21377 can't get merged? 13:30 <@michaelfolkson> I'd encourage you to review that shesek. It is not my PR, it wasn't my preferred PR, it wasn't my preferred activation mechanism. So by reviewing that you're not supporting my antagonism. I do think it is a good outcome though if it gets merged 13:32 <@michaelfolkson> harding: No but this process has been full of surprises. Don't want to second guess anything 13:36 < BlueMatt> the only thing in this process that has been reliably surprising to me is you. lots of people with strong opinions, but mostly just pushing for what they've argued all along. 13:36 < moneyball> michaelfolkson: i too agree your tone and attitude the past month or so hasn't been productive. when you were made admin of this channel a couple months ago, you were playing the role of neutral moderator. you then seemed to re-position to UASF enthusiast and now back to kinda moderator yet disgruntled and antagonistic. i see a little bit of merit in your recent posts but given the tone and attitude i 13:36 < moneyball> suspect most people are just writing them off by this point. 13:37 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:38 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@205.209.28.54] has joined ##taproot-activation 13:38 <@michaelfolkson> Ok appreciate the feedback moneyball. It has been very challenging. It would be interesting to watch an alternative history with you admin (ing) the channel. Perhaps the problem was me all along 13:39 <@michaelfolkson> If that's the general community assessment I will quietly go into the sunset knowing I did my best 13:42 < moneyball> i have been AWOL in terms of helping the past few months. i have been reading most of the discussion. i'm certain i could not have in any way accelerated things or made things smoother. what i observe is a lot of people who really care, who are well-intentioned, who are raising good points. some people are more balanced and some people focus on specific risks, concerns, or options, but all of it is 13:42 < moneyball> valuable to inform us. 13:44 < moneyball> i also recognize it can be really frustrating and annoying. we all want taproot. some personalities in our community are really strong and aggressive. yet often they have legitimate, sincere points that need to be considered. i think that if one steps back from the day-to-day drama and observes a 3 month window, you can summarize a set of legitimate technical issues and tradeoffs discussed, and a decent 13:44 < moneyball> amount of progress toward them. we all wish for a holy grail overall activation framework with 100% consensus that will work for every future soft fork, but, we're not there yet. 13:45 < BlueMatt> michaelfolkson: I dont think anyone was trying to say "the problem is you", you've helped things along a bunch, and I think people (or at least I) are generally grateful for that 13:45 < BlueMatt> its only the past few weeks/month where you've been highly negative, even as people make progress, just slower than you appear to want 13:49 <@michaelfolkson> Again I don't want it to sound like I'm storing up fireworks (I'm not), I just think this discussion is for later. I'm happy to be told I was a help, a hindrance or a total irrelevance then. 13:49 <@michaelfolkson> This isn't a love or hate on me channel. We're trying to get Taproot activated 13:50 < BlueMatt> then lets focus on moving forward with the path that seems to have at least *some* level of agreement, and get miners to signal in the window :) 13:50 <@michaelfolkson> As I said the best thing to do is to review #21377 13:51 < moneyball> the way i think about it is "let's get taproot activated in a safe, consensus-driven way." that generally means more pain and frustration but in the end is far more satisfying and sets bitcoin, and us as a community, apart. 13:52 < moneyball> (btw i'm sharing my feelings to everyone, not directed at you in any way) 13:53 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@ua-84-216-128-91.bbcust.telenor.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:55 <@michaelfolkson> Right, there were certain inevitabilities after SegWit. I (and I think everyone) knew it was going to be challenging to get consensus on this. If we can get #21377 merged I think it is a good outcome 13:56 -!- stortz [c8b9c69a@unaffiliated/stortz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 14:02 -!- mips [~mips@gateway/tor-sasl/mips] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:10 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined ##taproot-activation 14:15 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:31 < robert_spigler> For the updated state machine (https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/127186/113842362-f342c680-97d5-11eb-89ea-15dd3c114a46.png), how do we know nsig passing the threshold will happen before the min)activation)height, and not after? 15:31 < robert_spigler> min_activation_height* 15:32 < robert_spigler> Previously, there was a DELAYED period that allowed for both possibilities 15:33 < robert_spigler> (STARTED->LOCKED_IN) or (STARTED->DELAYED) 16:12 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined ##taproot-activation 16:29 -!- mips [~mips@gateway/tor-sasl/mips] has joined ##taproot-activation 16:30 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@205.209.28.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:31 < harding> robert_spigler: If nsig passes the threshold after the min_activation_height (e.g., for ST, blocks are mined way way faster than they've ever been before), then we activate after a single locked_in period. 16:32 < harding> I.e., there's no delay. 16:33 < harding> That's actually an intended feature for signet where the min_activation_height is set to 0 so the fork can be activated with no delay and no special settings needed for the signet. 16:45 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:47 < robert_spigler> So there is always at least 1 LOCKED_IN period? 16:48 < harding> Yes (assuming nsig >= thresh). 16:49 < robert_spigler> Is that why LOCKED_IN and LOCKED_IN->ACTIVE are defined as 'height+1' instead of just height = ... 16:55 < harding> I think that's because the actual comparison is: lastBlock->nHeight + 1 < min_activation_height 16:55 < harding> lastBlock->nHeight + 1 is this block's height 16:56 < harding> Whoops, that was from a test; actual comparison is: pindexPrev->nHeight + 1 >= min_activation_height 16:56 < harding> See https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21377/files#r608755079 16:56 < harding> (bbiab) 17:01 < robert_spigler> Ohh, I see, that makes more sense. Thanks for the help harding ! 17:06 -!- grubles [~unknown@unaffiliated/grubles] has quit [Quit: brb] 17:17 < harding> robert_spigler: thanks for reviewing! 18:23 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined ##taproot-activation 18:42 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined ##taproot-activation 18:50 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined ##taproot-activation 18:52 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:54 -!- shesek [~shesek@164.90.217.137] has joined ##taproot-activation 18:54 -!- shesek [~shesek@164.90.217.137] has quit [Changing host] 18:54 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined ##taproot-activation 19:15 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:37 -!- stortz [c8b9c69a@unaffiliated/stortz] has joined ##taproot-activation 19:59 -!- jeremyrubin [~jr@024-176-247-182.res.spectrum.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:07 -!- jeremyrubin [~jr@024-176-247-182.res.spectrum.com] has joined ##taproot-activation 20:20 -!- stortz [c8b9c69a@unaffiliated/stortz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed] 20:23 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined ##taproot-activation 20:25 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:12 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined ##taproot-activation 21:17 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: hebasto, sdaftuar, jnewbery, justinmoon, jeremyrubin, criley, mandelb[m], AaronvanW, RubenSomsen, niftynei, (+51 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 21:18 -!- Netsplit over, joins: kanzure, ghost43, RubenSomsen, adiabat_, fjahr, jakesyl, dr-orlovsky, rocket_fuel_, _0x0ff, matt2 (+51 more) 21:18 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 21:20 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined ##taproot-activation 21:20 -!- robert_spigler [robertspig@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-nbdoczfqlufrawaj] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 21:20 -!- elichai2 [sid212594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-fcjkdeeahjmazrjq] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 21:20 -!- mandelb[m] [mandelbmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-gtmxunhmhtpywknr] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:20 -!- uasf [~uasf@2604:a880:2:d0::1bda:1001] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:21 -!- ksedgwic [ksedgwicma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-rlaihbwmrnbwzmcg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:21 -!- mitjavoll[m] [mitjavollm@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-mngmmfrimeehlttj] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:21 -!- awesome_doge [awesome-do@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zuwvtisktstffhjv] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 21:22 -!- uasf [~uasf@2604:a880:2:d0::1bda:1001] has joined ##taproot-activation 21:23 -!- elichai2 [sid212594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iknxywtqwegwtadk] has joined ##taproot-activation 21:46 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:57 -!- ksedgwic [ksedgwicma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-rxdmxvkxrhflhjna] has joined ##taproot-activation 22:31 -!- RusAlex [~Chel@unaffiliated/rusalex] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:39 -!- RusAlex [~Chel@unaffiliated/rusalex] has joined ##taproot-activation 22:49 -!- robert_spigler [robertspig@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-rhfptrmqzzhqagxv] has joined ##taproot-activation 22:49 -!- awesome_doge [awesome-do@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-sunxiabzmyfspkky] has joined ##taproot-activation 22:49 -!- mitjavoll[m] [mitjavollm@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-gkorissoqffbncih] has joined ##taproot-activation 22:49 -!- mandelb[m] [mandelbmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-yissqaszkokipdgd] has joined ##taproot-activation 23:43 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined ##taproot-activation --- Log closed Sat Apr 10 00:00:21 2021