--- Day changed Thu Dec 10 2015
00:04 < jonasschnelli> Luke-Jr : yeah. Now here.
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00:06 < Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: re isolating "Bitcoin Core" to fewer places.. there's 8 instances in the .ui files; I could move those to the equivalent .cpp, but it would look not-so-nice in Designer; thoughts?
00:06 < jonasschnelli> Luke-Jr: hmm.. we could place a "placeholder" in the .ui files and populate them over code?
00:07 < Luke-Jr> that would work
00:07 < jonasschnelli> Or let the "placeholder" be taken care over the translation files.
00:07 < Luke-Jr> ?
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00:07 < jonasschnelli> Na. Bad idea.
00:07 < jonasschnelli> Let's just populate it over code.
00:07 < jonasschnelli> with your new var
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00:08 < jonasschnelli> It is really a good idea to isolate the application name. Thanks for doing this!
00:08 < Luke-Jr> ok
00:09 < Luke-Jr> do you know if src/qt/res/bitcoin-qt-res.rc can use PRODUCT_NAME?
00:10 < Luke-Jr> it has includes, but it's not quite C++ O.o
00:10 < jonasschnelli> hmm... i think it can't
00:10 < jonasschnelli> Let me have a look
00:11 < jonasschnelli> In that file we have things like CLIENT_VERSION_MAJOR
00:11 < jonasschnelli> that seems after autoconf stuff?
00:11 < jonasschnelli> So.. should work i assume.
00:13 < Luke-Jr> I guess I can throw it through gitian to make sure
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00:21 < jonasschnelli> Luke-Jr: yes. I think that would show if it works or not. If you push/update your PR, i can also kick my gitian-builder again.
00:24 < Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: ok, pushed the rc changes; not done with ui ones yet, but that presumably needs no testing
00:24 < Luke-Jr> (* not literally no testing obviously)
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00:26 < jonasschnelli> Luke-Jr: okay. Restarted the build: https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/pulls/7192/
00:38  * Luke-Jr :| "Could not connect to host bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch: SSL negotiation failed."
00:38 < jonasschnelli> ja. Known issue. :P
00:38 < Luke-Jr> <.<
00:39 < jonasschnelli> I extra bought a SSL cert,... but still seems to be not covered by common CAs!
00:39 < jonasschnelli> To hell with CAs!
00:39  * jonasschnelli needs to look at http://letsencrypt.org
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00:40 < Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: maybe you installed it wrong? usually I at least get the option to ignore..
00:45 < jonasschnelli> Luke-Jr: i think the installation is okay: http://i.imgur.com/wVeQTTX.png
00:46 < jonasschnelli> i guess some operating systems don't have the "AddTrust External CA Root"
00:46 < Luke-Jr> I know nothing about installing SSL certs :/
00:46 < Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: your server should provide the CA root key, I would think?
00:46 < jonasschnelli> the problem: me neither!
00:47 < jonasschnelli> ah... maybe i need to add the CA to the apache.conf somewhere. right.
00:47 < jonasschnelli> However: At least you have a gitian sig with my signature... :)
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00:51 < Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: hm, sizeWarningLabel seems to have a precedent for placeholders in the .ui .. still think I should move them?
00:52 < Luke-Jr> gitian sig isn't useful when I can't even establish the connection :p
00:53 < jonasschnelli> sizeWarningLabel: what about using %1 for the application name and add the new var to tr().arg()?
00:54 < Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: makes sense. Maybe I should do that for all 8 instances?
00:55 < jonasschnelli> Yes. Makes sense probably. I just check if there is a preprocessor like thing for the .ui files... 
01:06 < jonasschnelli> Luke-Jr: i think placing it over a %1 var is the best option we have so far.
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02:07 < Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: does contrib/macdeploy/DS_Store have some purpose being in git?
02:07 < jonasschnelli> Yes... the DS_Store files defines the background and position of icon for the mac disk image.
02:07 < jonasschnelli> I can take care of the renaming there....
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02:18 < Luke-Jr> I can't.. easily. :p
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02:54 < Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: do you know what the font is in background.png?
02:58 < GitHub121> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/00b4b8d1c47a...5dc63ed1ca8a
02:58 < GitHub121> bitcoin/master 9fc6ed6 Wladimir J. van der Laan: net: Fix sent reject messages for blocks and transactions...
02:58 < GitHub121> bitcoin/master 2041190 Wladimir J. van der Laan: test: Add basic test for `reject` code...
02:58 < GitHub121> bitcoin/master 5dc63ed Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge pull request #7179...
02:58 < GitHub67> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #7179: net: Fix sent reject messages for blocks and transactions (master...2015_12_fix_reject_message) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7179
03:11 < GitHub163> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to 0.12: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/b2d7ada3727f...44fef99e666e
03:11 < GitHub163> bitcoin/0.12 96e8d12 AlSzacrel: Coinselection prunes extraneous inputs from ApproximateBestSubset...
03:11 < GitHub163> bitcoin/0.12 44fef99 Wladimir J. van der Laan: net: Fix sent reject messages for blocks and transactions...
03:14 < Luke-Jr> (or anyone else..)
03:29 < jonasschnelli> Luke-Jr: looking for the font...
03:30 < jonasschnelli> Helvetica Neue "Thin".
03:31 < jonasschnelli> But don't tell me you want to add some imagemagick script for the background.png?
03:31 < Luke-Jr> yes, why not?
03:31 < Luke-Jr> at the very least, using a free format rather than Photoshop would be nice :p
03:32 < jonasschnelli> Hah. Right. Agree.... 
03:32 < jonasschnelli> Yes. Try it... 
03:32 < jonasschnelli> It could be, that the font looks crispy or the anti-aliasing is bad... but you need to try.
03:32 < jonasschnelli> But don't make things to easy for altcoins... :)
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03:33 < jonasschnelli> Helvetica Neue is a font that requires licensing... *duck*
03:34 < Luke-Jr> :|
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03:34 < jonasschnelli> But i guess there are opensource alternatives that look similar.
03:35 < jonasschnelli> Helvetica Neue Thin is just so nice. I had to use it...
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03:52 < Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: close enough? http://luke.dashjr.org/tmp/code/bccore.svg
04:01 < jonasschnelli> Luke-Jr : get a 403 forbidden
04:02 < Luke-Jr> try now
04:02 < jonasschnelli> Liiiitle bit different. But i could live with.
04:02 < jonasschnelli> What font? Robosans?
04:02 < jonasschnelli> Raleway,... 
04:04  * Luke-Jr now has to figure out how to get this to render the gradient right outside of a browser.. >_<
04:05 < jonasschnelli> Are you sure it's a linear gradient? I think it's a circular
04:05 < Luke-Jr> <linearGradient id="gradient" x1="0%" y1="0%" x2="100%" y2="100%">
04:05 < jonasschnelli> no.. it's a linear. 
04:06 < jonasschnelli> (i mean in the original png pictures)
04:06 < Luke-Jr> oh
04:06 < jonasschnelli> But thanks for doing that!
04:06 < jonasschnelli> Even if there are some differences. A SVG makes much more sense.
04:10 < Luke-Jr> does the macdeploy stuff need to work outside gitian?
04:14 < jonasschnelli> hmm... macdeploy stuff is not really used i guess.
04:14 < jonasschnelli> I can't think of a use case where someone wants to build the mac dmg without gitian.
04:14 < jonasschnelli> Also not sure if it really works
04:14 < jonasschnelli> (nobody uses it, very likely to break)
04:17 < Luke-Jr> cool, so I can just make the font ttf be an input? :P
04:18 < Luke-Jr> (seems silly to include it in git just for this)
04:23 < jonasschnelli> Luke-Jr: I think creating the background.png could be a manual step/sciprt
04:23 < jonasschnelli> otherwise run the script withing the make deploy target
04:25 < Luke-Jr> sure, my point is getting the TTF into the gitian VM
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04:48 < michagogo> Luke-Jr: depends package please
04:48 < michagogo> The inputs/ dir shouldn't be used when it can be avoided
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09:19 < wangchun> should multiple signrawtransaction runs to the same unsigned transaction return the same signed hex or not?
09:20 < morcos> wangchun: i'm not sure, but i think it should in later versions of bitcoin core
09:20 < wangchun> morcos: it has changed?
09:21 < wangchun> before i remember they are different despite the same input
09:21 < wangchun> now they are all same, is it safe?
09:22 < morcos> wangchun: see PR #5227.  It looks like that went in for 0.10, which makes signing deterministic according to RFC6979
09:24 < morcos> wumpus: suggested topics for todays meeting: 1)  BIP 68 questions - a) semantic change to assume MTP  b) implentation approach change to #7184
09:24 < morcos> 2) mempool containing only txs valid for the next block : is this something it would make sense to relax in the future, under what constraints?
09:49 < GitHub99> [bitcoin] SuriyaaKudoIsc opened pull request #7197: Set link from http:// to https:// (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7197
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10:10 < morcos> wumpus: gmaxwell:  #4906 which removes extraneous inputs disturbs me a bit.  I see gmaxwell commented earlier on about some concerns, and it wasn't really clear to me how disproven those concerns were with the code that got merged.
10:11 < morcos> there is not a lot of coherence around wallet logic and what our goals are, so its a bit concerning to have a change like this without realy understanding that its better
10:12 < MarcoFalke> morcos, coin selection code is independent of MIN_CHANGE, at least in the scope of AproximateBestSubSet()
10:12 < morcos> thats not to say i'm convinced it's worse, but just throwing it out there
10:12 < MarcoFalke> If this was your concern
10:12 < morcos> MarcoFalke: that PR is near the top of my list to review but what does that have to do with #4906?
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10:13 < MarcoFalke> I was talking about https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4906#issuecomment-55669171
10:13 < MarcoFalke> Did you as well?
10:15 < morcos> yes i'm talking about that too
10:15 < MarcoFalke> The discussion in this PR covered far more than the actual commit changed
10:16 < morcos> yeah i suppose they are tied together a bit, in MIN_CHANGE and not removing extraneous things both serve the same purpose
10:18 < MarcoFalke> You could still NACK 4906, though. And say it is preferred to keep some low value coins in the inputs to put downward pressure on the utxoset.
10:18 < MarcoFalke> But then again the transactions are larger and user pay more fee, which is also not wanted.
10:19 < wumpus> with regard to privacy it's better to include as little inputs as possible
10:19 < morcos> 4906 is merged
10:20 < wumpus> and also to generate smaller transactions where possible
10:20 < morcos> wumpus: i was a bit confused by the sorting direction confusion, but if big inputs are removed first thats obviously better
10:20 < MarcoFalke> I still think it's good to have it and focus on different approaches to reduce the utxoset
10:20 < morcos> well gmaxwell's point was over the long haul it might be better to have larger txs and merge small inputs now rather than later
10:20 < wumpus> I'm a bit doubtful about changing selection 'for the good of the utxo set'
10:21 < morcos> ha, you mean not changing.
10:21 < MarcoFalke> You'd need to make the selection algorithm work on more than just nValue of each coin
10:21 < MarcoFalke> But I am planning to address this...
10:21 < wumpus> (at least when it interferes with local concerns)
10:22 < morcos> i don't think its just utxo set, i think its a question of whether its going to grind your wallet down into small inputs yourself which is bad for you
10:22 < MarcoFalke> Are you referring to  6696 now?
10:22 < morcos> like perhaps it would be better to remove at most one input
10:22 < morcos> no i'm only referring to 4906
10:24 < gmaxwell> wangchun: They are the same now, because we use derandomized DSA now, it's safe and has been this way since 0.10.
10:24 < morcos> wumpus: mostly i think given the fragile and complicated state of wallet logic and the many competing goals, its probably preferrable to be conservative in merging small one-off changes of dubious benefit
10:25 < morcos> i agree with you that perhaps something shoudl be done to avoid egregiously adding tons of small input txs that turn out to be easily removable
10:25 < MarcoFalke> In most cases the diff does not affect the selected set at all.
10:25 < morcos> but maybe that thing is a bit more nuanced than jsut removing them all
10:26 < morcos> anyway, i'm not suggesting to revert, just trying to make sure its an area where we're particularly careful of unintended consequences.
10:26 < MarcoFalke> I agree it was merged a bit too fast
10:26 < wumpus> too fast?!?!
10:26 < MarcoFalke> I haven't even had time to look at each commit
10:26 < wumpus> it has been open since 2014
10:26 < MarcoFalke> When he did the rebase
10:27 < wumpus> has been the oldest pull for quite some while
10:27 < MarcoFalke> Then two or three days wouldn't hurt ;)
10:27 < wumpus> at last I prefer not including unnecessary commits, I admit other people may have different opinions, but that's the annoying thing about having one wallet implementation bound to bitcoin core
10:27 < wumpus> commits->inputs
10:28 < morcos> anyway, that's all i wanted to say.  on another note please see my topic suggestions above which i put in the wrong channel.
10:28 < MarcoFalke> I was only referring to the "dirty diff" when saying "merged too fast"
10:28 < wumpus> anyhow if people are serious about wanting it reverted I'll revert it
10:29 < wumpus> but next time if a pull is open for more than a year and you disagree please NACK it
10:29 < morcos> if gmaxwell doesn't chime in then just leave it i say.. will be more real world data to help build even better algorithms
10:29 < wumpus> I checked the logic for correctness but assumed no one was strongly against it
10:29 < wumpus> (because of how long it was open)
10:30 < wumpus> may be better to close old pulls no one cares about unmerged, I don't know
10:30 < morcos> it could be part of the weekly meeting, to suggest a few old pulls that either need new attention or to be closed, and people could look at them in the following week
10:31 < morcos> if no action happens, they get closed
10:31 < wumpus> sure
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10:48 < wumpus> re: privacy, one concern has been that people have been sent small 'tracing' amounts on purpose, in the hope they will include it in a transaction. Removing unncecessary inputs makes this less likely. Of course, when it wouldn't link further inputs including them is less harmful.
10:58 < gmaxwell> wumpus: to prevent that we should be selecting by link-group, and adding all the coins in a link-group whenever we spend.
10:58 < morcos> wumpus: oh thx for mentioning that, i've never understood its value, is that something that is supposed to help pierce the obfuscation of coinswap or join or what have you?
10:58 < morcos> otherwise i don't understand its purpose
10:59 < gmaxwell> morcos: people pay small amounts to random addresses that have been spent from completely; so that when they spend from other address in the future, they will pick up the small amounts, and then show common ownership of the new address and the only one.
10:59 < wumpus> morcos: well you send a small amount to an address someone gives you - they'll link it with other coins when they send
11:00 < morcos> what gmaxwell said about a spent address makes sense
11:00 < wumpus> morcos: which reveals some outputs belonging to theirw allet
11:00 < morcos> but otherwise why not just watch existing ocins in the address
11:00 < wumpus> there may be none
11:00 < gmaxwell> E.g. you want to know who owns 1apple but can find nothing, 1apple has no coins assigned. You keep paying 1apple 0.00001 BTC whenever it runs out of coins, in the hopes that it gets spent at the same time as another address you can find out something about.
11:00 < gmaxwell> also the more small coins the more likely linkage happens.
11:01 < morcos> yeah, ok.. yeah thats what sdaftuar just explained to me as well
11:01 < morcos> sigh.. people
11:01 < gmaxwell> the whole coinselector in bitcoin core appears to have been written with a strong assumption that an address isn't used more than once. :(
11:01 < sdaftuar> meeting time?
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14:21 < Luke-Jr> jonasschnelli: any easy way you could test a modified DS_Store file?
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23:59 < jonasschnelli> Luke-Jr: IIRC right, modifying .DS_Stores is non trivial. I guess you can't just change it with hexeditor like things. But i'm happy to try if you pass me over a .DS_Store.
23:59 < jonasschnelli> I guess there are tools to modify a DS_Store (which is a non-open apple binary format)