--- Day changed Fri Feb 19 2016
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00:04 < wumpus> michagogo midnightmagic I don't think there's any way around it: for truly deterministic builds, a cache system cannot be used, everything has to be built every time. Kind of sad but ok
00:04 < wumpus> every time you cache an old build product it may have been built under different circumstances, with other packages, slightly perturbing the output ijn a non-reproducible way (at least with the info given in the assert)
00:05 < wumpus> I also wiped my caches, again, for the 0.12 final build. That probably should be common practice for -final.
00:05 < wumpus> this at least makes sure that the releases can be reproduced, given that you find the historical ubuntu packages...
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00:09 < wumpus> the only solution would be to use a deterministic toolchain (and that isn't just the compiler - some other tools affect the results too, like tar) as well. A huge project I think.
00:16 < wumpus> in any case, despite the toolchain confusion, the gitian system still meets the requirement that N people build and get the same output, if they build reasonably close in time to each other. Everyone can check the binaries close to the release
00:17 < wumpus>  It would be nice to be able to check old versions, say, 0.10.0, with full conviction, but I don't see a strong motivation for that
00:22 < midnightmagic> the solution to a related problem to this (non-byte-deterministic, customer support type purposes) way for commercial enterprises has been to version the entire build environment including OS and hardware descriptors, or in the case of most of the ones I had to work with, the entire VM guest. Even then, they would get screwed up with incompatible VM hosts that weren't able to simulate the o
00:23 < midnightmagic> ld environments properly. So, fwiw what you guys are doing is in many respects well ahead of what commercial environments do. they viewed the problem as only something to be mitigated -- not solved permanently.
00:24 < midnightmagic> and it was always very, very storage-heavy.. 
00:29 < wumpus> yes, we could actually say 'we freeze and checkpoint ubuntu trusty here, at this point, and don't take upgrades anymore'
00:30 < wumpus> 'all 0.12 releases will be built with *exactly* this state'. On the other hand, it has to be reproducible by just downloading stuff from ubuntu itself, if we were to provide that image... that creates a way to undermine the whole system
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01:04 < midnightmagic> i guess there's an archival something-or-other of packages one could access from.. debian I want to say. but.  ehh. long as people trying to co-build can arrive at identical results.. and besides, for historical versions mine mostly match.
01:04 < midnightmagic> like when I build them way after everyone's already moved on.
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01:16 < wumpus> good to hear it usually works
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01:37 < GitHub62> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/0e3ccbfb26b1...b6e00af8193f
01:37 < GitHub62> bitcoin/master 7eef1d0 Matthew Zipkin: Clarify description of blockindex...
01:37 < GitHub62> bitcoin/master b6e00af Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #7541: Clarify description of blockindex...
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01:37 < GitHub176> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #7541: Clarify description of blockindex (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7541
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02:04 < michagogo> 10:29:36 <wumpus> yes, we could actually say 'we freeze and checkpoint ubuntu trusty here, at this point, and don't take upgrades anymore' | 10:30:50 <wumpus> 'all 0.12 releases will be built with *exactly* this state'. On the other hand, it has to be reproducible by just downloading stuff from ubuntu itself, if we were to provide that image... that creates
02:04 < michagogo> a way to undermine the whole system
02:05 < michagogo> Um, until something that we use gets a critical bug...
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02:05 < michagogo> Did this recent libc thing affect us?
02:06 < michagogo> If so, what if the news had come out the day after the tag, while people were building?
02:06 < wumpus> michagogo: yes, that's why it may not be realistic, there could be gcc bugs, or exploitable bugs on the VM, etc, necessitating an upgrade. And that all would have to be carefully checked, audited and babysitted...
02:07 < wumpus> michagogo: not much - libc is linked dynamically, so in every case a distro upgrade of libc will also fix bitcoin core
02:09 < wumpus> I'm very happy we didn't choose to release fully statically linked executables, which would have included the buggy code inside our executables
02:11 < michagogo> Is there anything (in the builds for any of the 3 platforms) that's statically linked from any of Ubuntu's packages?
02:11 < wumpus> yes. For linux at least libc++, for windows all of the mingw platform.
02:12 < michagogo> Hm, we have 5 builders
02:12 < michagogo> 5 sets of sigs* so far
02:12 < michagogo> And the two of us are the only ones for OS X…
02:13 < wumpus> uhm for linux libstdcxx, not libc++,that's the clang one
02:13 < michagogo> I guess we need cfields around anyway at some point to do the codesigning, so we have enough sigs to go ahead with that as soon as he gets around to building
02:13 < wumpus> yes, building OSX is less popular due to the officially-non-distributable input
02:13 < michagogo> Yeah, I know
02:14 < JackH> when do we have binaries out for 0.12?
02:15 < michagogo> wumpus: so yeah, all it takes is for some critical (or even not-so-critical but sufficiently annoying/impactful to the program) bug in any of those and we're screwed
02:16 < michagogo> JackH: pretty much whenever cfields gets around to building his
02:16 < michagogo> As soon as he's done that we'll have 3 sets of sigs on all platforms and can go ahead with codesigning and releasing
02:16 < JackH> so this is it right? 0.12 is officially ready now and there are no more changes?
02:17 < michagogo> JackH: but the code's final, so you can build it yourself if you want
02:17 < JackH> gotcha, very nice
02:17 < michagogo> And I can give you binaries now if you want
02:17 < JackH> sure
02:17 < michagogo> And yeah, unless some supercritical bug pops up (in which case 0.12.0 will be DOA and we'll probably do a 0.12.0.1), this is it
02:18 < michagogo> JackH: not at the computer now, but I'll upload mine soon
02:18 < JackH> nice, thanks michagogo 
02:18 < michagogo> JackH: also, it'd be great if you set up gitian
02:19 < michagogo> Would let you easily build your own binaries, and then you could also help contribute to official releases
02:20 < JackH> so you have my own build compared to yours?
02:20 < p15> I tried to build but qt wouldn't install from homebrew :(
02:21 < michagogo> JackH: right
02:21 < JackH> I can try that michagogo 
02:21 < michagogo> p15: have you tried the depends system?
02:21 < p15> no
02:21 < michagogo> It builds all the dependencies using our own system
02:22 < michagogo> I *think* you just need to cd depends && make
02:22 < michagogo> And then there's a ./configure argument that uses that
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02:24 < michagogo> p15: see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/v0.12.0/depends/README.md
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02:43 < wumpus> michagogo: in all cases though, everything that is linked statically from the distro is a part of the toolchain (libgcc, libstdc++, mingw-wrappers-around-windows-libs). There are no ancillary Ubuntu packages statically linked. OSX build takes everything from custom inputs, so is expected to be the least sensitive to changes in the distro.
02:43 < wumpus> (in OSX's case even the compiler is taken from somewhere else)
02:44 < michagogo> Okay, that's good at least.
02:44 < michagogo> I guess that software should (I hope…) be well-maintained
02:44 < wumpus> the depends system is supposed to cover any non-toolchain, non-base-OS library
02:45 < wumpus> right, at some point there's nothing you can do but hope, unfortunatey
02:45 < wumpus> if there's anything to make potential attacks more difficult or more expensive, which doesn't take a lot of manpower to build/maintain, I'd of course like to know
02:47 < wumpus> is ubuntu itself going to switch to deterministic builds now that debian will?
02:48 < wumpus> if not, it would make sense to change the gitian VM to debian at some point, so that the distro can also be re-built deterministically
02:50 < wumpus> https://wiki.debian.org/ReproducibleBuilds
02:50 < wumpus> not quite there yet.
02:54 < wumpus> (although - in principle - it wouldn't need building the entire distro deterministically; just the 'trusted base set' of packages that we need)
02:55 < michagogo> wumpus: ask in #ubuntu
02:55 < michagogo> Or maybe -devel
02:55 < wumpus> I think it's still too theoretical now I've seen that debian isn't as far along as I thought
02:55 < cfields> wumpus: grr, just got to HK. I won't be able to sign until Monday :\
02:56 < michagogo> cfields: are you the only one that can ATM?
02:56 < wumpus> cfields: well, makes sense to not carry the signing keys along on a visit to China ;)
02:57 < cfields> wumpus: yea, i make sure to wipe them when I travel
02:57 < jonasschnelli> Hmm.. not sure which keys are more imortant. Windows/OSX bin signing keys or the gitian signing key.
02:58 < jonasschnelli> IMO the second one has more value
02:59 < cfields> michagogo: yes, but imo that should change, for hit-by-bus reasons if nothing else
02:59 < michagogo> jonasschnelli: I disagree
03:00 < michagogo> The codesigning cert is all that you need to get an unsuspecting user's OS to trust a binary
03:00 < michagogo> It's also a single point of trust
03:01 < michagogo> If cfields wants, he can make a malicious bin and get many people to run it
03:01 < wumpus>  I don't think it makes much to argue which one is more important, every link can be the weakest link. At least in the gitian case there are multiple signers, so one being compromised would be detected.
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03:01 < michagogo> The gitian key is- right.
03:01 < cfields> michagogo: i only create a detached sig, never upload the bins
03:01 < cfields> michagogo: it's easy enough to verify that the sig is only a sig
03:02 < wumpus> cfields signs, I upload the bins to bitcoin.org, good to not have one person do both
03:02 < michagogo> It's just one part of a process involving many people (3 at minimum)  all matching
03:02 < michagogo> cfields: I know that
03:03 < cfields> wumpus: sorry about that. Since we didn't end up with it worked out until last sunday, I figured the tag would be coming Sunday/Monday
03:03 < michagogo> I'm saying though, you have the codesigning certs and therefore have the theoretical ability to sign anything you want and OSes will trust that
03:03 < wumpus> yes, but everyone can get a codesigning cert
03:04 < wumpus> if we relied on the OS' verification ability only, that'd indeed be a huge issue, but there are steps all the way from the source code to uploaded, signed binaries
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03:08 < wumpus> would be nice if the OS-specific signing could also be distributed. For example with threshold signatures, but that would require either special OS support or reverse engineering combined with clever crypto. Or something like gitian-downloader built in the OS. One can dream :-)
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03:10 < fanquake> wumpus just pushed my sigs up, so you've got a third osx sig now.
03:11 < michagogo> fanquake: 4th*, jonasschnelli also just PR'd
03:11 < wumpus> fanquake: good, thanks! (though we'll have to wait for monday for the upload, we planned this in the middle of cfields's HK weekend)
03:11 < michagogo> But unfortunately the release will have to wait until Monday, when cfields returns from Hong Kong
03:12 < fanquake> wumpus no worries.
03:12 < michagogo> (And yeah, that kinda illustrates the bus factor here... only temporarily, thankfully)
03:13 < michagogo> wumpus: is it just not having the key that prevents you from signing? Or is it a platform issue (e.g. needing a Mac)?
03:15 < wumpus> not sure it's fair to talk of a bus factor here. In principle someone else could sign, he doesn't have the one golden key that blocks bitcoin releases forever
03:16 < wumpus> it would just take some time for anyone else to get signing keys and get the process to work, in this case it makes sense to just wait for monday, but it's no absolute blocker
03:16 < wumpus> michagogo: just distribution of responsibilities
03:16 < michagogo> wumpus: okay, fair enough.
03:17 < michagogo> Maybe a minibus factor
03:17 < wumpus> hehe
03:17 < michagogo> Nothing critical, but definitely a major inconvenience
03:18 < fanquake> Given we wait ~6 months for a release, I'm sure everyone can handle 2 more days
03:19 < fanquake> Looking forward to the new merge phase now that 0.12.0 is done.
03:41 < wumpus> what kind of merge phase? master has been open for 0.13.0 changes for a while
03:42 < wumpus> and there's already some things that should be backported to 0.12.1
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03:56 < wumpus> cfields: btw: I think you introduced the SCRIPT_ERR codes, does checking them in a test, as in https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7517, make sense?
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05:54 < GitHub98> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #7559: [build-aux] Correct AC_PACKAGE_NAME brackets in bitcoin m4 scripts (master...correct-m4-brackets) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7559
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06:06 < GitHub134> [bitcoin] jonasschnelli opened pull request #7560: [OSX] fix brew openssl detection (master...2016/02/osx_openssl) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7560
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06:18 < GitHub85> [bitcoin] fanquake closed pull request #7559: [build-aux] Correct AC_PACKAGE_NAME brackets in bitcoin m4 scripts (master...correct-m4-brackets) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7559
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06:46 < GitHub113> [bitcoin] fanquake reopened pull request #7559: [build-aux] Correct AC_PACKAGE_NAME brackets in bitcoin m4 scripts (master...correct-m4-brackets) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7559
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06:57 < Chris_Stewart_5> Documentation oriented pull requests for the bitcoin core code base is more than welcome right?
06:58 < Chris_Stewart_5> I.e. adding c++ docs for function calls 
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07:16 < GitHub87> [bitcoin] btcdrak opened pull request #7561: IsSuperMajority() softfork for BIPs 68,112 and 113 (master...softfork) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7561
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09:32 < GitHub189> [bitcoin] btcdrak opened pull request #7562: Bump transaction version default to 2 (master...txversionbump) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7562
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--- Log closed Fri Feb 19 10:27:21 2016
--- Log opened Fri Feb 19 10:27:39 2016
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17:28 < GitHub61> [bitcoin] jtimon opened pull request #7563: libconsensus-p2a: Decouple pow.o from chain.o and move it to the consensus package (master...libconsensus-p2a-chain-cpp-interface-0.12.99) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7563
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17:37 < GitHub137> [bitcoin] jtimon opened pull request #7564: libconsensus-p2a: Preparations to decouple libconsensus from coins.o (master...libconsensus-p2a-coins-cpp-interface-0.12.99) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7564
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18:13 < GitHub176> [bitcoin] jtimon opened pull request #7565: bip9/bip113/libconsensus-p2a: Deployment preparations forBIP113 + #7552 + Introduce Consensus::VerifyTx() (master...libconsensus-p2a-verifytx-bip113-0.12.99) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7565
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19:25 < GitHub137> [bitcoin] jtimon opened pull request #7566: WIP: Implement BIP9 and get BIP113 to be deployed with it as an example (master...bip9-0.12.99) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7566
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