--- Day changed Sat Mar 26 2016 00:04 -!- p15 [~p15@21.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 00:06 -!- p15 [~p15@21.91.145.64.client.static.strong-tk2.bringover.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 00:06 -!- gevs [~greg@ip-83-134-234-21.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 00:06 -!- gevs [~greg@ip-83-134-234-21.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Changing host] 00:06 -!- gevs [~greg@unaffiliated/gevs] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 00:08 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:09 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 00:16 -!- JeromeLegoupil [~textual@46-127-102-197.dynamic.hispeed.ch] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 00:24 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:25 -!- Alopex [~bitcoin@cyber.dealing.ninja] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 00:34 -!- Don_John [~Don@250-223-114-134.nat.resnet.nau.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 00:43 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 00:46 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:00 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: good point with including the ciphersuite into the KDF to avoid a weak-ciphersuite-attack. Haven't thought about that! 01:00 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: you said "Personally I'd just suggest dropping the negoation;". I guess you mean only the ciphersuite-negotiation? Not the whole ECDH? 01:01 < gmaxwell> nor did the authors of dozens of other protocols that didn't. I am not so smart, lots of people have failed here before, and I'm only repeating their mistakes. 01:01 < gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: right. 01:02 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: you said: " (also, you're going to need a 256 bit session ID for later auth, and two 512 bit keys for the authenticated encryption);" I don't understand that. I'm only aware of two 256bit keys for both directions ECDH. 01:02 < jonasschnelli> I don't see a need for a auth session id. 01:03 < jonasschnelli> Because I assume the encryption negotiation followed by a auth identity pubkey check will keep the authentication withing the encryption session? 01:03 < sipa> jonasschnelli: you'll need a session id to sign when doing identity checking 01:04 < gmaxwell> the authentication must bind the session or varrious kinds of MITM identity proxying attacks turn up. 01:04 < sipa> sure, you could sign one of the encryption keys or the ECDH output directly, but it's generally better to separate them 01:04 < jonasschnelli> sipa: Ah. So during the encryption negotiation both side produce a 256bit session id and the other party needs to sign that (together with the pubkey) to ensure a link between the auth and the enc? 01:05 < sipa> jonasschnelli: auth is an overloaded term; do you mean MAC or identity verification? 01:05 < jonasschnelli> identity verification. sry. 01:06 < gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: right thats what the session ID is for. 01:06 < jonasschnelli> So the session ID can be transported unencrypted during ECDH nego.? 01:06 < jonasschnelli> no... wait. 01:06 < gmaxwell> the session ID is just a result of the ECDH. 01:06 < sipa> jonasschnelli: the session ID never ever transported 01:07 < sipa> not encrypted, not unencrypted 01:07 < jonasschnelli> hmm... 01:07 < gmaxwell> The ECDH runs, and the result is a session ID and a set of keys for the encryption/mac. 01:07 < gmaxwell> And the session ID can (optionally) be authenticated. 01:07 < jonasschnelli> so the ECDH calculated point could be the session ID, then run a KDF, get the sym. cipher key? 01:08 -!- ChillazZ [~ChillazZ@194.97.152.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:08 < sipa> jonasschnelli: ECDH output is used as seed for a PRNG; from that PRNG you read session id, IV, encryption keys, ... whatever you need 01:08 -!- ChillazZ [~ChillazZ@194.97.152.20] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 01:09 < jonasschnelli> And to verify identity (identity auth) the requesting peer needs to sign the ECDH calculated point (or a PRNG result from that seed) with his pre-shared idendity pubkey? 01:09 < sipa> yes 01:09 < gmaxwell> you never use the ECDH value directly. They'd sign the session ID. (a PRNG result) 01:09 < jonasschnelli> Okay. Got it! 01:10 < jonasschnelli> Wasn't aware of the possibility to use the ECDH point as seed. 01:10 < gmaxwell> The PRNG input should include the ECDH along with all the 'session context' e.g. any paramter negoiation that was sent. 01:10 < gmaxwell> (I recommend including one of the public keys in the KDF, to avoid the gratitious loss of entropy; but this is a minor thing) 01:10 < jonasschnelli> And probably the ciphersuite (if we keep this). 01:11 < sipa> jonasschnelli: i think it makes sense to have ciphersuite versions 01:11 < sipa> and just have one currently 01:11 < jonasschnelli> Yes. I also reserved it for future changes. 01:11 < sipa> negotiation is hard, and general trend is moving away from it 01:12 < sipa> instead just have version numbers of the protocol, and each version has one fixed set of ciphers 01:12 < gmaxwell> sipa: I'm not sure this is better though! consider, if you merely do that, how do you guard against downgrade attacks-- I guess only by supporting just a single version? 01:12 < gmaxwell> otherwise, what you need to do is have the protocol commit to whatever versions were offered. 01:14 < jonasschnelli> Okay. I'll update the BIP and write more specification about the negotiation, session ID, KDF 01:14 < jonasschnelli> pbkdf2? 01:15 < sipa> for KDF you could use rfc6979 (slow!), just a simple SHA256 of ECDH together with a counter, chacha20, or maybe SHAKE (sha3 variant with arbitrary length output) 01:16 < sipa> i like sha3 because it has such large state, so you can put a lot of context in without limiting entropy 01:17 < sipa> the pb in pbkdf stands for password based :) 01:17 < gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: another thing your spec is missing is rekeying. The chacha20/poly must be rekeyed periodically. 01:17 < jonasschnelli> ^^ 01:18 < gmaxwell> pbkdf2 is intentionally slow, not a requirement here. 01:18 < sipa> gmaxwell: my assumption was that you'd do another encinit session occasionally within the encrypted channel 01:18 < gmaxwell> I don't know if you noticed but I suggested that authentication could be done in a way combined with rekeying which would have some very nice properties. 01:18 < jonasschnelli> So... rekey = re-negotiate the whole ECDH secret every x minutes/hours? 01:18 < sipa> every gigabyte 01:19 < sipa> though having time limits is good too 01:19 < jonasschnelli> an right. would something speak against sipas idea of re-key within the current enc session? 01:20 < jonasschnelli> Would probably make the implementation simpler. 01:20 < jonasschnelli> (different message formats) 01:20 < sipa> jonasschnelli: gmaxwell's identity check idea would also automatically result in a rekey 01:20 < gmaxwell> I suggested that to auth, the auth requester send X H(sessionid,server_pubkey), and if the server knows the pubkey for X, she responds with a message saying that she is changing her encryption key, and changes to H(old_encryption_key, server_pubkey) as the new one.. and in the newly encrypted segment she tranmits the signature that proves she knows the secret. 01:21 < gmaxwell> This has a nice properity that if the server pubkey is kept secret; the confidentiality of past communications is preserved even if ECC is broken. 01:21 < gmaxwell> And it also proves that the servers identity key has remained online, if that procedure is used for each rekeying in the future. 01:23 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: H(old_encryption_key, server_pubkey) <--- "old_encryption_key" would be the KDF derived symmetric key? 01:23 < gmaxwell> Yes. 01:24 < jonasschnelli> And... right. That would be required "in both directions"... 01:25 < gmaxwell> My thought on that is that even when you don't have an identity you're expecting everyone could just support using the generator (private key 1).. so even without a known identity the same protocol would always be used... good for QA and for traffic analysis resistance. 01:25 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: and a re-keying without identity auth? new ECDH nego., new session id, but sym. key could be H(old_encryption_key, new_encryption_key)? 01:26 < gmaxwell> yes it could be there is no need to redo ECDH, just a waste of CPU time. 01:27 < jonasschnelli> but how would you create a new shared secret? Using a counter on both sides? 01:27 < gmaxwell> H(old_key) is sufficient. 01:27 < jonasschnelli> ah.. okay. I see. Just hash the hash, ... 01:28 < gmaxwell> for forward security reasons you don't want to be forced to keep the old keys around... they should be destroyed as soon as they're not in use. 01:28 < jonasschnelli> How would the other peer know when it is time to re-key. Probably requested by the responding peer with a new message type. 01:29 < jonasschnelli> s/./? 01:29 < gmaxwell> by sending a message in the channel, "everything that follows will be the next key" 01:29 < jonasschnelli> right. That makes sense. 01:30 < gmaxwell> and my earlier suggestion was to make the auth do this so that the pubkey could be used as a symmetric secret in the rekeying. 01:31 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cmarihadvzuorkbq] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 01:32 < jonasschnelli> And I suppose the identity auth also needs a timeout (probably time instead of consumed bandwith). 01:33 < gmaxwell> forward secrecy also wants a timeout, so something like 1 hour or 1GB whichever comes first. 01:33 < gmaxwell> not that our need for forward secrecy is so great, but if we're going to do something might as well do it right. 01:35 -!- ChillazZ [~ChillazZ@194.97.152.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:36 < jonasschnelli> Okay... Let me update the BIP. 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-!- ChillazZ [~ChillazZ@194.97.152.20] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 04:54 -!- randy-waterhouse [~kiwigb@opentransactions/dev/randy-waterhouse] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:32 -!- LordByron [~BUILDER@CPEbc4dfbf24b33-CMbc4dfbf24b30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 05:42 -!- belcher [~user@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 06:38 -!- ChillazZ [~ChillazZ@194.97.152.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:38 -!- ChillazZ [~ChillazZ@194.97.152.20] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 06:50 -!- d_t [~textual@212.144.253.35] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 06:52 < GitHub145> [bitcoin] mruddy opened pull request #7748: test and regtest mempool: not require standard, non-mandatory, input script verification flags (master...nonstandard-sighash) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7748 06:55 -!- d_t [~textual@212.144.253.35] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 07:08 -!- achow101 [~achow101@pool-96-227-114-115.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 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