--- Day changed Wed Nov 30 2016
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00:28 < gmaxwell> oops #9233 contained a change to ctaes which should have been directed upstream (not like it really matters but the change will potentially get blown away with the next subrepo merge).
00:28 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/9233 | Fix some typos by fsb4000 · Pull Request #9233 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
00:30 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] luke-jr opened pull request #9245: Drop IO priority to idle while reading blocks for getblock requests (master...ionice) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9245
00:44 < jonasschnelli> wumpus: "Doesn't every wallet get its own database environment?" <--- wouldn't this require a "directory" per wallet?
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00:44 < wumpus> jonasschnelli: good point - I wasn't aware that there is a directory - database environment correspondence
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00:44 < luke-jr> wumpus: I put it in util.h cuz I'm not sure what the best way to add a conditional header to the makefiles is :x
00:44 < wumpus> luke-jr: just add it unconditionally
00:44 < luke-jr> I guess it wouldn't be conditional at this point
00:45 < jonasschnelli> luke-jr: if BITCOIN_CORE_H+=?
00:45 < wumpus> luke-jr: we do want this functionality for windows eventualy (though it's ok if you don't do thatin your pull)
00:45 < luke-jr> jonasschnelli: yeah, but it's resolved earlier than it can be added cleanly
00:45  * luke-jr wonders if Windows has IO priorities
00:45 < wumpus> it's better to not have conditional headers
00:45 < wumpus> yes, it has
00:48 < wumpus> in any case you should make at least the interface abstract, that the implementation is empty on windows for now is ok
00:48 < luke-jr> it's pretty abstract right now?
00:48 < wumpus> yes, but it wouldn't be if you make the header conditional
00:48 < jonasschnelli> I think this should also work on OSX.
00:48 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] gmaxwell opened pull request #9246: Developer docs about existing subtrees. (master...devdocs_for_subtrees) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9246
00:48 < gmaxwell> wumpus: yea, there is an enviroment/directory correspondance. 
00:48 < jonasschnelli> luke-jr: would this also affect filtered blocks?
00:48  * gmaxwell wonders if fanquake is automated, he was so fast tagging that PR.
00:48 < jonasschnelli> heh     
00:48 < luke-jr> jonasschnelli: yes, that's intentional
00:48 < wumpus> luke-jr: my comment was completely about code organization, if you make a util_prio.cpp, you should define the interface in util_prio.h, this makes it easier to find stuff :)
00:48 < jonasschnelli> Yes. I though about an option to only prio down the filtere blocks (not the non-filtered).
00:48 < wumpus> yes he is fast
00:49 < luke-jr> hmm, other util files don't have an underscore; should I rename it?
00:49 < wumpus> gmaxwell: bummer
00:49 < wumpus> luke-jr: yes, would make sense for consistency
00:50 < wumpus> jonasschnelli: well further options could be added later I suppose
00:51 < luke-jr> along these lines, I was pondering adding DSCP flags at the network level too
00:51 < luke-jr> but that seems invasive
00:51 < wumpus> luke-jr: does libevent support that?
00:51 < luke-jr> no idea :x
00:52 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: actually doesn't usually help. ... turns out that lots of network gear ignores it and a lot of what doesn't will do terrible things like drop all the marked packets. :(
00:52 < wumpus> I wouldn't recomment hacking on low level bits of the network code as it's going to be ripped out anyway
00:53 < wumpus> do torrent clients use that?
00:53 < luke-jr> gmaxwell: really? to try to survive with this DSL I have my router tagging everything differently :x
00:54 < wumpus> or is it something you would usually define at the OS/firewall level?
00:54 < luke-jr> my torrent client has a field for it, but it seems to be set to 0
00:54 < gmaxwell> torrent mostly uses utp, a reliable transport constructed over UDP that has flow control management that is designed to be as unintrusive as possible... slow downs when it detects delay going up.
00:54 < gmaxwell> And the use of UDP allows it to do hole punching, of course.
00:54 < wumpus> interesting
00:56 < wumpus> I had no idea bittorrent implemented its own bulk data transfer protocol on top of UDP
00:56 < wumpus> thought it used udp just for negotiation and distributed hash tables and such
00:56 < gmaxwell> I don't think any of the utp stuff is using DSCP, it could, but as I mentioned there are networks that respond poorly to it. (not that many, but enough that I've seen multiple pieces of software in the past deploy bits of tagging then either take it out or add more code to detect stupidity and adapt)
00:56 < gmaxwell> yea, it's why ISPs mostly dropped the war on bittorrent. :P
00:58 < gmaxwell> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Transport_Protocol
00:58 < wumpus> would be interesting to use something similar
00:58 < jonasschnelli> Wasn't aware of uTP, very interesting.
00:58 < gmaxwell> Yep. It's just a ... big project. I thought maybe after our networking is cleaner adding other transports might be easier.
01:00 < wumpus> it's a big project though I guess if some of the implementation coudl be shared with some bittorrent implementation, it'd help - transferring historical blocks isn't that different from transferring other data
01:00 < gmaxwell> (mostly interesting for block syncing, though the fact that it does hole punching is useful too. and of course, fibre has a udp based transport for blocks on the tip-- designed for an entirely different goal, latency minimization).
01:00  * wumpus always thought bittorrent was just dumb dump-data-over-TCP
01:00 < jonasschnelli> luke-jr: OSX: "checking for ioprio syscalls... no"
01:01 < gmaxwell> wumpus: there is a libutp, I dunno about its quality.
01:01 < jonasschnelli> luke-jr: But it should work on OSX AFAIK, others are also using it: https://github.com/daliworks/busybox-osx/blob/master/miscutils/ionice.c#L23
01:01 < gmaxwell> wumpus: no the dump-data-over-tcp with many parallel connections is pretty unfriendly to other traffic on the network, tends to irritate users and ISPs.. :)
01:02 < gmaxwell> and also doesn't traverse NAT without heroic efforts.
01:02 < luke-jr> jonasschnelli: dunno how..
01:02 < wumpus> jonasschnelli: can you check in config.log why?
01:03 < wumpus> gmaxwell: true, though the main user of upnp seems to be torrent clients too - that put me on the wrong track, probably just as a fallback if the hole punching doesn't work
01:04 < jonasschnelli> luke-jr, wumpus: conftest.cpp:61:21: error: use of undeclared identifier 'SYS_ioprio_get'
01:05 < wumpus> jonasschnelli: oh wait it's actually directly calling syscalls, yea that won't work on anything but Linux. You probably need to just add a specific implementation for macosx
01:05 < luke-jr> wumpus: BSD seems to use the same syscall macro though
01:06 < luke-jr> jonasschnelli: maybe a new header needed?
01:06 < wumpus> but the syscalls will be named differently and have a different interface
01:06 < wumpus> certainly obscure ones like this
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01:07 < luke-jr> looks like this abstraction isn't going to work for Windows
01:08 < luke-jr> it can only set threads low-priority for IO, CPU, and paging at the same time; or set IO alone per-fd
01:08 < jonasschnelli> I'll have a look for OSX.
01:08 < luke-jr> per-fd is probably ideal, but will require API changes
01:08 < wumpus> per-fd is neat
01:08 < gmaxwell> Per-fd is super neat.
01:09 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: rather than IO-nicing it might be better to just rate limit responses.
01:10 < luke-jr> that doesn't allow an idle PC to max out IO, nor an active PC to throttle it down further :x
01:14 < wumpus> might be even better to do both
--- Log closed Wed Nov 30 01:20:46 2016
--- Log opened Wed Nov 30 01:21:00 2016
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01:21 < jonasschnelli> Yes. That level would be desirtable.
01:21 < jonasschnelli> But do we want all this custom platform specific code in our codebase?
01:21 < jonasschnelli> I think its nice. I probably would go for it.
01:30 < luke-jr> done I think
01:31 < luke-jr> I was tempted to make it support platforms with BOTH ioprio and iopolicy, and retry the alternate if the first fails, but meh
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03:45 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/e56cf67e6b3f...56bee4986d11
03:45 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 7d3b627 Wladimir J. van der Laan: torcontrol: Explicitly request RSA1024 private key...
03:45 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 56bee49 Wladimir J. van der Laan: Merge #9234: torcontrol: Explicitly request RSA1024 private key...
03:45 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj closed pull request #9234: torcontrol: Explicitly request RSA1024 private key (master...2016_11_torcontrol_key_ttpe) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9234
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03:51 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] laanwj pushed 1 new commit to 0.13: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/94531b53509470e01dcbd90275577cb37a794fa8
03:51 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/0.13 94531b5 Wladimir J. van der Laan: torcontrol: Explicitly request RSA1024 private key...
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07:27 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] wodry opened pull request #9249: Improvement of documentation of command line parameter 'whitelist' (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9249
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08:22 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] wodry opened pull request #9251: Improvement of documentation of command line parameter 'whitelist' (master...patch-3) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9251
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09:34 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] wodry closed pull request #9249: Improvement of documentation of command line parameter 'whitelist' (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9249
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10:51 < bobbytux> hello all
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10:57 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sdaftuar opened pull request #9252: Release cs_main before calling ProcessNewBlock (cmpctblock handling) (master...cb-lock) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9252
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16:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa pushed 4 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/56bee4986d11...a143b88dbd49
16:11 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 0cc8b6b Wladimir J. van der Laan: init: Split up AppInit2 into multiple phases...
16:11 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 16ca0bf Wladimir J. van der Laan: init: Try to aquire datadir lock before and after daemonization...
16:11 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master deec83f Wladimir J. van der Laan: init: Get rid of fServer flag...
16:11 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa closed pull request #9010: Split up AppInit2 into multiple phases, daemonize after datadir lock errors (master...2016_10_init_split_daemon) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9010
16:15 < gmaxwell> hurrah
16:15 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/a143b88dbd49...72ae6f8cf022
16:15 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 446a8f9 Karl-Johan Alm: Trivial refactor: Remove extern keyword from function declarations, as they are extern by default.
16:15 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 72ae6f8 Pieter Wuille: Merge #9244: Trivial refactor: Remove extern keyword from function declarations...
16:15 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa closed pull request #9244: Trivial refactor: Remove extern keyword from function declarations (master...no-extern-funcdecl) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9244
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17:16 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/72ae6f8cf022...3bf06e9bac57
17:16 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 083f203 Gregory Maxwell: Remove fNetworkNode....
17:16 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master bdb922b Gregory Maxwell: Remove pnodeLocalHost....
17:16 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 3bf06e9 Pieter Wuille: Merge #9226: Remove fNetworkNode and pnodeLocalHost....
17:16 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa closed pull request #9226: Remove fNetworkNode and pnodeLocalHost. (master...node_is_this_i_dont_even) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9226
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18:02 < phantomcircuit> ok can someone explain why nWalletDBUpdateCounter doesn't work as a static member of CWalletDB ?
18:02 < phantomcircuit> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9227/files
18:02 < phantomcircuit> works fine as a static in the file
18:05 < sipa> phantomcircuit: you're defining a static variable in a header file. this means that every cpp that includes this header gets its own instance of that variable
18:06 < phantomcircuit> oh     
18:06 < phantomcircuit> yeah that's not right
18:06 < phantomcircuit> git exploded and i put it there but yeah
18:06 < phantomcircuit> fixed
18:07 < phantomcircuit> what's there now is right and works
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18:19 < BlueMatt> argggg, sipa
18:19 < BlueMatt> please dont rebase when you squash unless you need to :(
18:20 < BlueMatt> that said, #8580 needs rebased again :p
18:20 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/8580 | Make CTransaction actually immutable by sipa · Pull Request #8580 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
18:29 < sipa> BlueMatt: i needed to
18:29 < BlueMatt> ahh, ok
18:29 < sipa> i actually first updated without rebasing
18:29 < sipa> and then it was grey in github
18:29 < BlueMatt> there really needs to be a better way to say "give me the diff from a to b, ignoring signed-merge-commit changes"
18:29 < BlueMatt> I need to build a script for that
18:29 < sipa> yup     
18:30 < sipa> i'd say you do it by comparing a merge of the original with the new base with the rebase
18:31 < BlueMatt> yea, probably
18:32 < BlueMatt> you have to find a common fork point, though, by tracing back merge commits until you find the root of the two
18:33 < BlueMatt> (ofc this assumes we continue to use git as if it were not git, but...whatever)
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18:56 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] TheBlueMatt opened pull request #9253: Fix calculation of number of bound sockets to use (master...2016-11-nbind) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9253
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19:25 < Victorsueca> kaspersky is marking bitcoin-qt as coin stealing malware
19:25 < Victorsueca> and in my case is compiled from source so... doubt it's a fake executable
19:26 < sipa> sogh
19:26 < sipa> sigh
19:26 < achow101> Victorsueca: it's marked as coin stealing because it looks for a wallet.dat file :/
19:27 < Victorsueca> achow101: lol
19:27 < Victorsueca> 404 logic not found
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19:27 < achow101> and sometimes they mark it as a bitcoin miner
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19:28 < Victorsueca> guess somebody will have to contact kaspersky so they whitelist it
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20:21 < phantomcircuit> Victorsueca, that sounds like it's doing the right thing actually
20:21 < phantomcircuit> you compiled a binary yourself
20:21 < phantomcircuit> so it's unique
20:21 < phantomcircuit> which is trying to open wallet.dat
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20:45 < luke-jr> phantomcircuit: that's not the right thing to do :/
20:53 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] fanquake opened pull request #9254: [depends] ZeroMQ 4.2.0 (master...zeromq-4-2-0) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/9254
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22:05 < rebroad> hi all. I've just identified a DoS vuln, which can crash the latest master
22:05 < rebroad> want to report it responsibly
22:05 < rebroad> I don't have PGP set up though..
22:06 < rebroad> (have signal, telegram)
22:07 < rebroad> given it was only recently introduced, I don't suppose it matters so much and could raise an issue for it
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22:32 < sipa> rebroad: if it's not in a release, it's likely fine to disclose
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22:39 < gmaxwell> I'm around now.
22:39 < gmaxwell> q     
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23:00 < paveljanik> rebroad, you do not need to have PGP to send mail to security@...
23:03 < wumpus> why not set up a gpg key - everyone in this space does. But yes, if it is only in master you don't necessarily need to encrypt it
23:06 < sipa> it's not like https://bitcoincore.org/en/contact/ lists an encryption key..
23:07 < gmaxwell> we should probably encourage people to make initial vuln disclosures in private, even if not encrypted-- they might be wrong about where it applies.
23:07 < gmaxwell> It would kinda suck for someone to report something 'in master' that also ended up in a recent backport release and was all over the network. :)
23:07 < wumpus> I just mean that security@* is private enough
23:08 < wumpus> and indeed we don't even list an encryption key there
23:09 < gmaxwell> yea. indeed. well we should.
23:09 < gmaxwell> I seem to recall some parties previously being opposed to that.
23:09 < wumpus> how do you want to do that? a shared key?
23:10 < sipa> gpg needs 1-of-n multisig encryption.
23:11 < wumpus> I remember there's an open issue about adding an encryption key to the security reporting page, but no one could decide on a sensible approach
23:11 < sipa> (it does of course, you can have multiple recipients, but you can't associate multiple keys with an email/identity)
23:11 < gmaxwell> shared key would work fine. doesn't even need to be everyone, but should be more than one.
23:11 < phantomcircuit> rebroad, i promise to act as 1-n for people i deem to be in the set
23:11 < wumpus> we also don't necessarily want to reveal the list of people behind the alias, and having people encrypt to multiple recipients is meh anyway
23:11 < phantomcircuit> "multisig as trust in patrick"
23:11 < gmaxwell> sipa: unfortunately multiple recipents is too much to ask of the sender.
23:12 < gmaxwell> probably we should have some webform on bitcoin-core.org that does gpg in the browser.
23:12 < wumpus> it's too much to ask of the sender and it is an information leak in itself
23:12 < sipa> this is what openssl does: https://www.openssl.org/news/vulnerabilities.html
23:12 < gmaxwell> there is browser gpg..
23:12 < sipa> (shared key, and suggests mailing individual members with their keys)
23:12 < wumpus> gmaxwell: how is that more secure than just having a SSL-encrypted page?
23:13 < gmaxwell> wumpus: because when its saved on the webserver the data doesn't lay around in a vulnerable form.
23:13 < wumpus> I still don't buy this 'client side in the browser' stuff, not for wallets, but also not for this :)
23:13 < gmaxwell> compromise is only point in time forward.
23:13 < wumpus> well the websever could also encrypt it when it receives it
23:13 < wumpus> I think we are overdesigining this
23:13 < wumpus> let's generate a shared key?
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23:14 < sipa> sure
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23:14 < gmaxwell> Yes, though compromise is a little less detectable that way. (in any case I wouldn't even have mentioned it except I know there is prefab gpg-webform stuff) https://www.hanewin.net/encrypt/PGencode.htm
23:14 < wumpus> I mean, this is like the alert system, there are tons of ideas but no one is going to implement one for the 1 in a year or so chance it's necessary
23:15 < wumpus> s/chance/time/
23:15 < wumpus> the only thing we receive on this security alias is support request crap even though it lists IN RED on the page that it shouln't be used for that
23:15 < gmaxwell> sure. in any case, someone can do it if they have the time/interest.
23:16 < wumpus> and apparantly people that want to report issues rather blather in here in public telling everyone they found something instead of discretely sending a mail, which even unencrypted would be better than that
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23:17 < gmaxwell> at least blabbing in here doesn't make it attractive to hack our email. :)
23:18 < rebroad> perhaps rather than using PGP keys we could use bitcoin address keys
23:18 < gmaxwell> that would only make things worse.
23:18 < wumpus> so instead of this meta talk, can you just let us know the issue please?
23:18 < gmaxwell> oh rebroad is here.
23:18 < rebroad> wumpus, ah, it was a false alarm (said above)
23:19 < wumpus> gah     
23:19 < wumpus> *goes back to bed*
23:19 < gmaxwell> rebroad: we missed where you said that.
23:19 < rebroad> although i did lose internet shortly after so perhaps it didn't send
23:19 < gmaxwell> (doesn't show up in the logs)
23:19 < rebroad> this is the problem with IRC.. I never know which messages have sent :-s
23:20 < rebroad> why don't we use slack or something more "modern"?
23:20 < Lightsword> rebroad, use a bouncer
23:20 < Lightsword> then you can check logs on it
23:20 < wumpus> I never have that problem on IRC, my client reports when a message couldn't send.
23:20 < rebroad> wumpus, what client are you using please? I need to switch 
23:20 < wumpus> no, we will not switch to a proprietary solution
23:20 < rebroad> wumpus, fair point. opensource is the way
23:21 < Lightsword> rebroad http://wiki.znc.in/ZNC
23:21 < sipa> i'm using irssi, running inside screen, on a vps
23:21 < rebroad> (and decentralized of course)
23:21 < wumpus> rebroad: I've used "quassel" and "irssi" and they both have that functionality
23:21 < Lightsword> znc lets you use a normal client with it
23:21 < rebroad> i hope no one actually got woken up to deal with this non-issue :-s
23:22 < wumpus> rebroad: exactly, IRC is much more in the spirit of bitcoin, though not decentralized it is a generic internet protocol that everyone can write clients for, some of better quality than others, but interoperability is key
23:22 < rebroad> didn't IRC used to be decentralized? i remember the days of the net splitting a lot and that doesn't seem to happen these days
23:22 < wumpus> well it didn't wake me up literally, i was awake, but it caused a stressful morning agian
23:22 < Lightsword> netsplits still happen
23:22 < sipa> rebroad: distributed doesn't mean decentralized
23:23 < sipa> you can't just run your own server and join the network
23:23 < sipa> you can start your own network however
23:23 < rebroad> I just spent a week meditating in a monastery - works well for stress - as does driving the road from Mae Hong Son to Pai - very beautiful part of Thailand
23:23 < gmaxwell> It also works really well with the toolset most of us use. Far better than slack (which I find has an infuratingly slow interface-- compared to anything non-browser I use), ignoring perhaps the occasional netsplit.
23:24 < wumpus> right, IRC *networks* are not decentralized, more like federated. IRC itself could be considered decentralized if you consider that everyone can create a network that's true...
23:24 < rebroad> although despite that I do have a twitching eye - too much coffee and not enough sleep I suspect. anyway.. OT!
23:25 < wumpus> gmaxwell: well you can use IRC to connect with slack - but anyhow let's not go there
23:25 < rebroad> wumpus, I do like how slack lets one quote previous messages..  sort of threading in a sense
23:25 < sipa>  rebroad> wumpus, I do like how slack lets one quote previous messages..  sort of threading in a sense
23:25 < wumpus> rebroad: nothing seems to work here, though I haven't tried going to a monastary I must admit :) I don't think I could.
23:25 < sipa>  rebroad> wumpus, I do like how slack lets one quote previous messages..  sort of threading in a sense <- i can quote too :)
23:25 -!- moli [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev     
23:25 -!- aalex_ [~aalex@64.187.177.58] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev     
23:26 < wumpus> yea here you can do the age-old thing for quoting: just copy/paste
23:26 < rebroad> I actually had not seen that message from wumpus about the monastery - so clearly I am losng messages recved too!
23:27 < wumpus> rebroad: and you didn't even disconnect in between
23:27 < rebroad> weird...
23:27 < wumpus> rebroad: looks more like a client issue than a network one
23:27 < Lightsword> maybe you should set up a cheap VPS and run a client from there
23:27 < wumpus> unless someone is MiTMing you
23:27  * Lightsword wants a good self hosted version of irccloud
23:28 < rebroad> using hexchat - prett standard on linux
23:28 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]     
23:28 < Lightsword> well if you run it over ssh on a cheap VPS with a reliable connection  you shouldn’t get dropouts
23:29 < Lightsword> and if ssh is unreliable you can even use mosh
23:29 < sipa> i use mosh
23:29 < wumpus> mosh <3
23:29 < rebroad> oh ignore me.. I am losing my mind obviously. sipa didn't quote wumpus's comment about the monastery - it was wumpus's actual comment :-s
23:30 < rebroad> sandwiches between two quotes
23:30 < gmaxwell> with how unreliable rebroad's connection has been in the past, I bet he'd like mosh.
23:30 < rebroad> s/sandwiches/sandwiched
23:30 < wumpus> another false positive :p need to be more careful in checking things
23:30 < rebroad> anothing thing I like about slack - i can edit spelling mistakes
23:30 < rebroad> (or telegram, etc)
23:30 < rebroad> somethng opensource like telegram would be nice - they have group chats on there
23:30 < gmaxwell> msitakes?
23:31 < gmaxwell> s/msitakes/mistakes/
23:31 < wumpus> well it won't just let you edit spelling mistakes, also other mistakes, or retroactively change statements/opinions
23:31 < rebroad> heh.. just need a front-end to parse those "s/" messages!
23:31 < paveljanik> gmaxwell, :-) You s/yes/no/.
23:31 < wumpus> "we've always been at war with eurasia"
23:31 < rebroad> anyway, enough of this silliness^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Husefulness
23:32 < gmaxwell> the editing features are nice until they're not. very confusing when you read something and then its edited and then later you cant figure out where you read the original thing. :)
23:32 < sipa> stackexchange lets you modify comments for up to a few minutes
23:32 < wumpus> just need a front-end to parse those "s/" messages <- haha that'd be fun
23:32 < sipa> which is very useful
23:32 < wumpus> too much bother to implement though, seems my brain works well enough as a parser/frontend for that
23:32 < sipa> i have a few plugins in my irc client
23:32 < rebroad> RBF for chat :)
23:33 < sipa> mff fppppfpppmpmmpppff fppmfpppf mfpmpppffmpp fmfpppmpmmpppfffmmfmpmmmpppmpmfmm pmpmppppppppffm
23:33  * Lightsword think it wouldn’t be that hard to build a decent irc web client like irccloud using twisted
23:33 < rebroad> sipa wtf?
23:33 < wumpus> gmaxwell: yeah you can do a full fledged chat by just editing two messages
23:33 < rebroad> sipa is that dinosaur dna?
23:33 < sipa> rebroad: it's a code called "kenny" which turns text into only [fmp ]
23:33 < rebroad> ahhh!
23:33 < sipa> and with a plugin it gets decoded automatically
23:34 < rebroad> lol     
23:34 < sipa> ǝuo sıɥʇ ǝʞıʃ 'sɹǝɥʇo ʍǝɟ ɐ ǝʌɐɥ ı
23:35  * rebroad has plugin envy
23:35 < rebroad> the upsidedown l looks suspect
23:35 -!- protomar [~protomar@91.214.169.69] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev     
23:35  * wumpus tries to recover his context before this kerfuffle, but apparently that part of memory has been overwritten
23:35  * Lightsword wonders if sipa has any that can send RCE exploits to take over other users IRC clients
23:35 < rebroad> lol     
23:36 < rebroad> wumpus, you needed to wait for 6 conformations for it to count
23:36 < sipa> PC LOAD LETTER
23:36 < rebroad> s/conformations/confirmations
23:36 < gmaxwell> /exec -o <command> runs an arbritary command in most clients and puts it into IRC... envy plugins no more...
23:36 < gmaxwell> 123456789011: 123456789011
23:37 < gmaxwell> ^ see, factor
23:37 < rebroad> I'll confirm the use of the word kerfuffle though
23:37 < Lightsword> hmm, I think znc actually has a plugin that lets you execute shell commands over IRC
23:37 < gmaxwell> disquiet's
23:37 < gmaxwell>  /exec -o shuf -n1 /usr/share/dict/words
23:38 < sipa> <sipa> exasperated
23:38 < sipa> (first try)
23:38 < sipa> wumpus: the context was that you were going back to sleep
23:39 < rebroad> hmmm.. blockchain based chat...  now that would be decentralized properly..
23:40 < sipa> try bitmessage
23:40 < rebroad> sipa, any advantage over IRC?
23:40 < sipa> no     
23:40 < wumpus> and puts the burden of storing your logs on everyone on the network - yea, that'd work
23:40 < sipa> and not sure if you're serious, but public blockchains don't actually work without the incentive of subsidy
23:41 < sipa> which makes non-currency use pretty unsustainable
23:41 < rebroad> sipa, speaking of that. dash has more nodes than bitcoin due to that I think
23:41 < gmaxwell> bitmessage isn't a blockchain, its a hashcash ratelimited flooding network.
23:41 < rebroad> and they are funding quite a few things from the blockchain also
23:41 < wumpus> meh, bitmessage is used for some private communication, it's basically a "dead drop". I don't know how effective it actually is at that though given the small number of users.
23:42 < gmaxwell> rebroad: please don't talk about dash here.
23:42 < rebroad> they *cough* hard-forked *cough* a few times to get that in place though - I am surprised the miners (who were getting 90%) went along with it
23:42 < wumpus> but if used through tor I guess it's pretty hard to do metadata analysis
23:43 < rebroad> gmaxwell, just referring to it as an example in the context of what sipa just said
23:43 < luke-jr> rebroad: don't confuse "works so far" with "can be relied on"; often scamcoins work only because nobody has bothered to attack them
23:44 < rebroad> gmaxwell, it's ok to talk about bitmessage but not dash? 
23:44 < rebroad> luke-jr, good point indeed
23:44 < sipa> this whole discussion is off topic now
23:44 < rebroad> luke-jr, although are you meaning to imply dash is a scamcoin?
23:45 < wumpus> altcoins are decidedly off-topic here, alternative communication methods for developers, well meh it doesn't hurt to have that discussion once ina while when we feel like it.
23:45 < wumpus> but yes it's done
23:45 < wumpus> back to coding
23:45 < luke-jr> rebroad: we can discuss that further in ##altcoin-dev if you wish, but I'd suggest it's a distraction
23:45 < rebroad> sipa, it is drifting occaionally OT but comes back to bitcoin often enough :)
23:46 < rebroad> I do perceive an over-sensitivity to the conversation drifting to altcoins when they are relevant to the current context, as bitmessage was
23:46 < gmaxwell> In general I would prever to not talk about altcoins here. Beyond it being offtopic, saying negative things about some altcoins has been known to get people harassed. 
23:47 < gmaxwell> And personally I find it somewhat stressful when someone is wrong about something on the internet and I can't even reply without knowing it's just going to create trouble for me.
23:47 < wumpus> tldr: it's a waste of everyone's attention here
23:48 < wumpus> too easy to get into fights, people feel too strongly about those things, this is a no-politics channel
23:49 < rebroad> how about barring strong feelings AND politics? and just being able to talk about possible features without fear of attack?
23:49 < wumpus> please take it elsewhere
23:49 < rebroad> "it"?
23:49 < wumpus> yes. This whole thread.
23:49 < luke-jr> rebroad: ##altcoin-dev is a real channel you can discuss said things in
23:50 < rebroad> I have lost the thread by now
23:50 < rebroad> I am not clear on what thread is being referred to nor what are the taboo subjects
23:50 < sipa> altcoins are definitely off topic
23:51 < sipa> (in this specific channel; there is #bitcoin-wizards for example for exotic ideas that may or may not make it into bitcoin some day)
23:51 < wumpus> "Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log"
23:51 < rebroad> sipa, so you mean mentioning them by name?
23:51 < luke-jr> rebroad: there is no context on topic to this channel where mentioning them by name would make sense.
23:52 < rebroad> I am also unsure what the definition of "altcoin" is
23:52 < sipa> we used to have a link to channel rules
23:52 < sipa> rebroad: other cryptocurrencies
23:52 < wumpus> rebroad: go discuss that elsewhere
23:52 < sipa> now, let's get back to development
23:52 < wumpus> this is also not the meta-channel "what to discuss in #bitcoin-core-dev"
23:53 < rebroad> wumpus, the conversation flowed to this - it was a co-creation we all had a part in that. anyway, i agree. where is that meta channel?
23:54 < luke-jr> #bitcoin is as meta as I know of
23:55 < rebroad> or #bitcoin-dev I'd have thought, since development is the key desire to talk about
23:57 < rebroad> but I don't desire to have that meta conversation really. I'd rather talk about core development, which is why I am here - but I will refrain from mentioning the names of "altcoins" even though I don't understand why not, nor what "altcoins" are yet, so it's kind of impossible to make assurances at this stage given that.
23:57 < luke-jr> general & meta=#bitcoin ; bitcoin development=#bitcoin-dev ; Core dev=#bitcoin-core-dev ; wiki=#bitcoin-wiki ; trading=#bitcoin-otc ; far future dev & hardforks = #bitcoin-wizards ; mining=#bitcoin-mining ; altcoins=##altcoin-dev
23:57 < jonasschnelli> sipa: In case you once start with BIP150 (I know you'll wait until the net refactor has been completed), here is the extracted ChaCha20Poly1305AEAD code from openssh: https://github.com/jonasschnelli/chacha20poly1305
23:59 < rebroad> I have attempted to seek clarification previously on a clear and concise definition of "altcoin" and raised an issue both on the bitcoin project and for bitcoin.org to address this
23:59 < luke-jr> rebroad: seek clarification in #bitcoin, not here
23:59 < rebroad> so it is really frustrating to come up against this again given all the proactivity so far