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[~goksinen@2604:2000:c591:8400:9941:caa8:a471:e019] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 04:34 -!- goksinen [~goksinen@2604:2000:c591:8400:9941:caa8:a471:e019] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:27 -!- gm2053 [~gm2051@2a02:c7d:12e:100:61c2:b99b:22eb:3ce8] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 05:31 -!- gm2052 [~gm2051@2a02:c7d:12e:100:1463:93f4:1c83:bb39] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 05:33 -!- molz_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 05:34 -!- NewLiberty [~NewLibert@2602:306:b8e0:8160:c092:439b:71e3:67d1] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 05:36 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:43 -!- dermoth [~thomas@216.221.51.255] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:50 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke pushed 2 new commits to master: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/compare/4c924011f535...80c3a734298e 05:50 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master dd1ea59 Jimmy Song: [test] Add gettxout call... 05:50 < bitcoin-git> bitcoin/master 80c3a73 MarcoFalke: Merge #10256: [test] Add test for gettxout to wallet.py... 05:50 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #10256: [test] Add test for gettxout to wallet.py (master...test_gettxout) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10256 05:52 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 05:55 -!- molz_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:06 -!- tw2006_ [~tw2006@2601:187:8480:2770:c175:6c0c:cc29:b72f] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:09 -!- tw2006 [~tw2006@2601:187:8480:2770:c083:fb8:cf1f:d60a] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 06:50 -!- d_t [~textual@108-65-78-188.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 06:55 -!- d_t [~textual@108-65-78-188.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:13 -!- aantonop [~aantonop@87.93.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 07:13 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 07:19 -!- 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joined #bitcoin-core-dev 09:32 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 09:35 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 09:40 -!- aantonop [~aantonop@87.93.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:44 -!- aantonop [~aantonop@87.93.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:11 -!- _anthony_ [~user@2001:470:daef:e1e1:27a3:b8c8:9db:79f6] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:20 -!- _anthony_ [~user@2001:470:daef:e1e1:27a3:b8c8:9db:79f6] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:21 -!- anthonyjd [~Anthony@2001:470:daef:e1e1:27a3:b8c8:9db:79f6] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:28 -!- tw2006 [~tw2006@2601:187:8480:2770:c083:fb8:cf1f:d60a] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:30 -!- dermoth [~thomas@216.221.36.255] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:48 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:48 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:55 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:57 -!- tw2006 [~tw2006@2601:187:8480:2770:a55e:b5d1:b027:295d] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 10:58 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa opened pull request #10299: Remove OpenSSL (master...simplerandom) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10299 10:59 -!- moli_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 11:35 < gmaxwell> wumpus: your comment is needed at https://github.com/bitcoin-core/secp256k1/pull/440 11:42 -!- CubicEarth [~cubiceart@50-1-104-188.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 11:44 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@207.38.86.239] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:45 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@207.38.86.239] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 11:54 -!- gijensen [~gijensen@5.9.173.182] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 11:55 < BlueMatt> sipa: re: 10299: I dont think thats 100% true? doesn't openssl's rng also pull other random things on some oses? 11:55 < BlueMatt> at least win used to take a screenshot or something like that, no? 11:55 -!- gijensen [~gijensen@5.9.173.182] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 11:56 < gmaxwell> look at the code sipa is removing, -- it has the screenshot addition stuff. 11:56 < gmaxwell> I don't care how things are split into PRs however. 11:57 < BlueMatt> ah, apologies 11:57 < sipa> BlueMatt: for windows, yes, it removes all that. i can't imagine it's useful these days 11:58 < sipa> but i don't know what openssl is using on netbsd that would still result in much useful entropy, if dev/urandom etc are broken 11:59 < BlueMatt> are y'all gonna revive the librng idea? 11:59 < BlueMatt> (please do) 11:59 * jonasschnelli thinks of someone who gives out recommendation to open minesweeper before starting Core. 11:59 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: concurrency makes it too hard. 11:59 -!- d_t [~textual@108-65-78-188.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 12:00 < BlueMatt> ok, so librng-no-concurrency? 12:00 < sipa> gmaxwell: if it's purely gathering entropy, it's mucb easier 12:00 < gmaxwell> sipa: IIRC openssl also adds a number of system things into the entropy pool. Not as extensive as what we did before. 12:00 < BlueMatt> or that 12:00 < BlueMatt> libgivemeentropy 12:00 < gmaxwell> well. I posted code before, sipa extended in and C++ ified it. 12:00 < BlueMatt> yes, my question was if y'all were gonna pull that back in 12:00 < BlueMatt> (please do!) 12:00 < gmaxwell> s/in/it/ 12:00 < sipa> yes, i'm all for that, but i think it's pretty orthogonal to getting rid of openssl 12:01 < BlueMatt> orthogonal, maybe, but I'd prefer to see them in the same release 12:02 < gmaxwell> next we will suggest storing that state in a memory map of its own, so its not contiguous with other variables that could bleed. :P 12:02 < jonasschnelli> Would unpack stuff from #5885 (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5885/files#diff-35f8a407f8c21cda300a45f50b6e9c74L5) make sense? 12:02 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/5885 | [WIP] Replace OpenSSL PRNG with built-in Fortuna implementation by sipa · Pull Request #5885 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub 12:02 < BlueMatt> gmaxwell: if you think I'm asking too much, feel free to shoot it down.... 12:02 < BlueMatt> i have no idea how much work there is there 12:03 < gmaxwell> BlueMatt: no I agree with you. 12:03 < gmaxwell> I don't care if its in this PR however, but it should be in the same release. 12:03 -!- tw2006 [~tw2006@2601:187:8480:2770:a55e:b5d1:b027:295d] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:04 < sipa> gmaxwell: i think it's (fun) overkill 12:04 < gmaxwell> what I'd proposed before is we do the seeder first, feed its output into OpenSSL... 12:05 < gmaxwell> sipa: there have been two OS releases with the OS rng returning nothing useful while we've been working on this project... I don't think making extra effort to not be completely insecure in that case is overkill. 12:05 < sipa> gmaxwell: my assumption is that the (barely maintained) openssl code can't be guaranteeing much in such a broken state either 12:06 < sipa> i agree it's a useful goal to attempt to be secure in that case, but i do see it as a separate improvement 12:06 < gmaxwell> which was why I previously suggested doing it first. :) 12:06 < sipa> this is trivial 12:06 < sipa> librng will be a pain to make production ready 12:07 < gmaxwell> I have no interest in a "librng" I don't think its tractable. 12:07 < BlueMatt> sipa: making it a library yes, making it libgivemeentropy, I'd hope a bit less so 12:07 < gmaxwell> handling concurrency is too hard if you also care a lot about performance. 12:07 < sipa> BlueMatt: wumpus did not feel like pulling all that code into core without making it reusable 12:07 < BlueMatt> sipa: isnt libgivemeentropy reuseable? 12:07 < gmaxwell> I am going to NAK this PR, since it seems unlikely that we'll get improved seeding at all. 12:07 < BlueMatt> (and easier than librng) 12:08 < sipa> gmaxwell: i don't understand 12:08 < sipa> why should improved seeding be a requirement to drop openssl? 12:09 < gmaxwell> You are busy arguing now that we're unlikely to get improved seeding, because wumpus wanted a reusable library, and we've evaluated it and determined that making something fast and fork tolerant while handling concurrency and being portable is more or less too hard. 12:09 < gmaxwell> Because the change is worse than what openssl does! 12:09 < sipa> we don't need the performance requirement anymore 12:09 < gmaxwell> I know we don't, but an external library does if anyone else is ever going to use it. Which is why we haven't done that. 12:09 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 12:10 < sipa> as all needs for randomness are split into high-performance or high-entropy, with no overlap 12:10 < sipa> so a libuserentropy or whatever should become a lot easier to do 12:11 < sipa> which makes it tractable to do 12:11 < sipa> but it's still a lot of work 12:11 < sipa> which i think shouldn't be blocking this 12:12 < gmaxwell> This is obviously weaker than the initilization with openssl. You're basically arguing that this should go first because doing other things won't happen soon. Don't you see why I can't support that? 12:12 < gmaxwell> Seperate PRs fine, but a change that I think is only acceptable with another change that you're saying won't happen soon? 12:13 < sipa> my view is that we currently have no guarantees about security if OS entropy is broken 12:13 < sipa> this makes it stronger, because all randomness queries no go to the OS 12:13 < sipa> *now 12:14 < sipa> if we want security in the assumotion of a broken OS, that is something that can be done independently (and more easily after this PR) 12:14 < sipa> *assumption 12:15 < gmaxwell> It's stronger because it goes straight to something which we've known to be insecure in recent memory? 12:15 < sipa> go find me what openssl would do in those cases 12:16 < sipa> do we even know? 12:16 < gmaxwell> I posted about it before, rng is seeded based on a collection of different pointers and timestamps. And in Bitcoin on windows, based on a screenshot. 12:16 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 12:18 < sipa> does that guarantee anything? 12:18 < sipa> at least you'd need things like memory latency based measurements 12:19 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:19 * BlueMatt is so confused, what was wrong with taking just the entropy-generating parts, pulling those out into a libgivemeentropy, and using that as an entropy source? 12:19 < BlueMatt> sounds a) doable on a reasonable timeline (unlike, maybe, librng) b) just as good for our usage 12:19 < sipa> BlueMatt: nothing wrong with it, i think it's a great idea 12:20 < sipa> but i think it's orthogonal to chaning the RNG 12:20 < BlueMatt> ok, so lets do both that and removing openssl in the same release and move on with our day? 12:21 < sipa> well if there is a requirement to do it in the same release, we should do it simultaneously 12:21 < gmaxwell> sipa: nothing here guarentees anything; thats a weird ask that you're making. 12:22 < sipa> sigh 12:22 * sipa weekend 12:22 -!- sipa [~pw@2001:19f0:ac01:2fb:5400:ff:fe5b:c3ff] has left #bitcoin-core-dev [] 12:25 -!- DCLXVI` [~DCLXVI@95-44-201-135-dynamic.agg1.whi.bdt-fng.eircom.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 12:29 -!- dclxvi [dclxvi@95-44-201-135-dynamic.agg1.whi.bdt-fng.eircom.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:31 -!- aantonop [~aantonop@87.93.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:39 -!- sipa [~pw@2001:19f0:ac01:2fb:5400:ff:fe5b:c3ff] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 12:39 -!- spinza [~spin@196.212.164.26] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 12:39 < sipa> gmaxwell: if all the seeding code was something we'd just add in random.cpp, i'll gladly do it even in the same PR 12:40 < sipa> but my assumption is that others wouldn't consider that the right place 12:40 < sipa> and if what is needed is a separate library will autotools and various detection for parts of operating systems, that's not something i want to take on writing and maintaing 12:42 < sipa> and if we both need better seeding code and making it effectively reusable are requirements before making progress on our RNG code, then yes, i fear it won't happen 12:42 < BlueMatt> sipa: I'm happy with it in random.cpp, that sounds like a wumpus question, though 12:42 < sipa> yes 12:43 < sipa> but it's not an unreasonable thing to ask 12:43 < sipa> and neither is requiring better seeding code 12:44 < sipa> in my view, if your OS randomness is broken, you're fucked 12:44 < sipa> maybe the current OpenSSL code helps with it, and maybe it doesn't 12:44 < sipa> it's a cool problem, with a cool solution, to try to protect against that 12:46 < sipa> but i don't feel like working on it when there are too many conflicting demands 12:49 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver2@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: :)] 12:54 -!- tw2006 [~tw2006@2601:187:8480:2770:2ceb:46e4:1ca9:a22] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:10 -!- spinza [~spin@196.212.164.26] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:10 -!- aantonop [~aantonop@87.93.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:14 -!- goksinen [~goksinen@2604:2000:c591:8400:391e:6cf4:4e1d:bf7] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 13:26 -!- BlueWolf33 [~BlueWolf@50-247-199-66-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 14:00 -!- tw2006 [~tw2006@2601:187:8480:2770:2ceb:46e4:1ca9:a22] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18 -!- aantonop [~aantonop@87.93.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 14:35 -!- harrymm [~wayne@104.237.91.192] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:01 -!- tw2006 [~tw2006@2601:187:8480:2770:557c:c4ad:cf3f:7863] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:06 -!- tw2006 [~tw2006@2601:187:8480:2770:557c:c4ad:cf3f:7863] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:17 -!- molz_ [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:20 -!- mol [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:28 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:30 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@176.158.157.202] has quit [Client Quit] 15:31 -!- cryptapus_afk is now known as cryptapus 15:37 -!- RubenSomsen [~RubenSoms@5ED2CA1D.cm-7-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:42 -!- RubenSomsen [~RubenSoms@5ED2CA1D.cm-7-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:52 -!- d_t [~textual@108-65-78-188.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 15:58 -!- Dyaheon [~Dya@a91-156-192-24.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:00 -!- Dyaheon [~Dya@a91-156-192-24.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 16:10 -!- goksinen [~goksinen@2604:2000:c591:8400:391e:6cf4:4e1d:bf7] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:12 -!- d_t [~textual@108-65-78-188.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. 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(master...getentropy-rand) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10301 22:48 -!- RubenSomsen [~RubenSoms@5ED2CA1D.cm-7-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 23:00 -!- dermoth [~thomas@216.221.36.255] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:01 -!- dermoth [~thomas@216.221.36.255] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 23:20 -!- aantonop [~aantonop@87.93.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev 23:40 -!- afk11 [~afk11@gateway/tor-sasl/afk11] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:40 -!- afk11 [~afk11@gateway/tor-sasl/afk11] has joined #bitcoin-core-dev