--- Day changed Thu Aug 10 2017
00:05 < wumpus> aj: sorry but bad time to ask now, I don't have much time to look at features, trying to focus on the 0.15 branch-off and 0.15.0rc1 release
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00:06 < wumpus> aj: the includeconf stuff looks good at a high level but haven't looked in detail, eg. whether it doesn't make the initialization and config reading code even less understandable
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00:36 < aj> wumpus: yup figured, no worries
00:39 < wumpus> aj: I promise to look at it as one of the first things after the branch
00:40 < aj> wumpus: post celebratory beverage or similar i trust!
00:42 < wumpus> aj: the thing I'm most worried with regard to risk of changes in that area of the code is that a) the qt/bitcoind initialization sequences start to diverge or b) the precedence of options between commandline/configuration file/qt settings becomes different. There's a lot that can go wrong there and we don't have tests for that :(
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00:45 < kallewoof> Why would includeconf PR cause divergence with QT? It feels like QT-side could have the same feature. (If not, I can look into that.) Maybe I misunderstand the point.
00:47 < jonasschnelli> BIP151 encryption question: the current definition says, that encryption negotiation has to be done before the version handshake (I guess it makes sense to have the enc.negotiation first). But how should a peer know if the other peer supports BIP151. Try and reconnect? Service bit fetch-able via relay, seeds (meh!)?
00:48 < aj> wumpus: yeah, i was a bit surprised to see the init code was duplicated there, rather than just a common function of some sort
00:49 < aj> wumpus: (the error reporting makes that not a trivial fix though)
00:49 < wumpus> kallewoof: yes, the qt-side should have the same feature, that's exactly "why", but it might conflict with other things there as there's an extra settings source
00:49 < wumpus> aj: yes, error reporting as well as qsettings, translations handling, etc makes that different and hard to unify
00:49 < wumpus> aj: the qt setup sequence is much more complex
00:49 < wumpus> aj: ideally we'd have tests, that'd be much more reassuring
00:50 < wumpus> pretty much a preconditioning for refactoring there
00:52 < aj> wumpus: hmm, can travis start qt/bitcoin, or would local-only tests be sufficient at least to start?
00:54 < wumpus>  if the test is not interested in windowed output w/ QT_QPA_PLATFORM=minimal you can avoid the X dependency, this is what the bitcoin-qt unit-tests in src/qt/test do
00:54 < wumpus> also in principle you can run all the functional tests with bitcoin-qt instead of bitcoind (but that's not useful for travis :-)
00:55 < wumpus> in any case even locla-only tests are an improvement to having nothing
00:55 < wumpus> travis/build support can be sorted out later
01:07 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] kallewoof opened pull request #11020: [wallet] getbalance: Add option to include non-mempool UTXOs (master...unspendable-utxo-handling) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11020
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01:14 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #10442: add a -bip148 option (master...master) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10442
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01:27 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke closed pull request #10532: -bip148 option (master...bip148) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10532
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02:41 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] AkioNak opened pull request #11021: fix getchaintxstats() (master...fix_getchaintxstats) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11021
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06:26 < venzen> sipa: gmaxwell: thanks, i'm processing, your explanations helped a great deal
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06:54 < sdaftuar> jtimon: this is incorrect - https://twitter.com/timoncc/status/895559780231593984
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06:55 < sdaftuar> 0.14.2 certainly can sign segwit transactions
06:56 < sdaftuar> the wallet doesn't use segwit by default though, and only lets you (easily) create p2sh-wrapped segwit addresses after segwit activates.
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07:26 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #11022: Basic keypool topup (master...basic_keypool_topup) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11022
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09:53 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] jnewbery opened pull request #11023: [tests] Add option to attach a python debugger if functional test fails (master...func_test_pdb) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11023
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10:10 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] practicalswift opened pull request #11024: tests: Free the OpenSSL error queue as part of the wallet_crypto/OldDecrypt test cleanup (master...OldDecrypt-cleanup) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11024
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11:03 < earlz> I'm trying to setup a new Gitian VM and I can't remember what I did to fix this error "failed to mound /dev/shm" using LXC
11:26 < wumpus> no google hits either?
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11:27 < wumpus> it sounds like a common lxc/vm issue, not specific to gitian
11:28 < earlz> Everything I've tried has been nothing so far
11:29 < earlz> just following exact directions as in the gitian-building.md doc
11:29 < earlz> lxc-execute: Mount of 'shm' onto '/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/lxc/rootfs/dev/shm' was onto a symlink!
11:29 < earlz> lxc-execute: File exists - failed to mount 'shm' on '/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/lxc/rootfs/dev/shm'
11:29 < wumpus> might be that some steps code-rotted, due to debian version drift
11:30 < wumpus> ideally someone would try to follow it every so often, from scratch, and make corrections where needed
11:30 < earlz> I did this same process a week ago and ran into 2 completely different problems, 1 where I just needed to reboot, and 1 where I ahd to do something to make network connections work
11:30 < achow101> earlz: that should have been fixed by https://github.com/devrandom/gitian-builder/pull/150
11:31 < achow101> did you pull in the latest version of gitian-builder?
11:32 < earlz> I just cloned it today, so yes. I'm using debian 8.5 as used in the walkthrough also, so I don't think it's the same issue
11:33 < earlz> Might try rolling back that commit and seeing what happens
11:35 < earlz> yep, rolling back the bit for shm fixed the initial problem at least. I'll report a bug there
11:35 < wumpus> so another source of drift would be gitian-builder updates :)
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11:58 < frogstar> clarkmoody!
11:58 < frogstar> I love your charts!
11:58 < kanzure> wrong channel
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12:00 < achow101> meeting?
12:00 < wumpus> #startmeeting
12:00 < lightningbot> Meeting started Thu Aug 10 19:00:16 2017 UTC.  The chair is wumpus. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:00 < lightningbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
12:00 < jonasschnelli> hi     
12:00 < achow101> hi     
12:00 < Chris_Stewart_5> ello
12:00 < sdaftuar> hey     
12:00 < instagibbs> hi     
12:00 < wumpus> any topics?
12:01 < jnewbery> #10882 please
12:01 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10882 | Stop advancing best block and shutdown node if keypool drops below critical threshold by jnewbery · Pull Request #10882 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:01 < wumpus> good idea
12:01 < wumpus> #topic Stop advancing best block and shutdown node if keypool drops below critical threshold
12:02 < cfields> hi     
12:02 < jonasschnelli> jnewbery: is that the alternative for keypool topup for 0.15?
12:02 < kanzure> hi.     
12:02 < wumpus> that replaced #11022 for 015.0?
12:02 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11022 | Basic keypool topup by jnewbery · Pull Request #11022 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:02 < jonasschnelli> What was/is wrong with 11022?
12:03 < achow101> jonasschnelli: 11022 is part of 10882 split into a separate pr
12:03 < luke-jr> if the node shuts down, how can users recover? O.o
12:03 < wumpus> it was getting too large IIRC
12:03 < jnewbery> #10882 is the same as it has been for the last few days (mark-used if later key from keypool used, try to topup, stop node if can't, etc)
12:03 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10882 | Stop advancing best block and shutdown node if keypool drops below critical threshold by jnewbery · Pull Request #10882 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:03 < jonasschnelli> Ah. Same problem I had with my original PR. :/
12:03 < jnewbery> I split #11022 off as the (hopefully) uncontroversial changes
12:03 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/11022 | Basic keypool topup by jnewbery · Pull Request #11022 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:04 < jnewbery> it just marks keys as used and tops up the keypool. No stop node/don't advance best block
12:04 < gmaxwell> I was making the recommendation that we split out the part that marks used and refills the pool and get that merged. It is a strict improvement with no downsides or extra considerations.
12:04 < gmaxwell> that one!
12:04 < kanzure> (nick ping)
12:04 < cfields> gmaxwell: can you do your hilite reminder? almost missed this
12:04 < cfields> yes, that :)
12:05 < wumpus> sounds like a good idea to factor out the critical, lower-risk changes so that it can still make 0.15.0rc1
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12:05 < wumpus> though this does mean it needs a new review round
12:06 < gmaxwell> I believe all the shutdown ones have unanswered questions.
12:06 < wumpus> #bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr btcdrak sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101
12:06 < gmaxwell> cfields: mine seems to be broken. Thanks wumpus.
12:06 < cfields> thanks
12:06 < sipa> present
12:06 < CodeShark> hello all
12:06 < paveljanik> here
12:06 < luke-jr> the startmeeting command should do it <.<
12:06 < Murch> hullo
12:07 < sipa> wumpus: the initial commits are the same
12:07 < jnewbery> I thought we were very close with 10882, with ACKs from several people. Greg - could you ask your unanswered questions in the PR? Your comments have mostly been in IRC and it's difficult to keep track of what your current concerns are
12:07 < wumpus> sipa: yes
12:09 < wumpus> 10882 was kind of a miscommunication, I almost merged than when it turned out that there were still critical concerns with it
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12:09 < gmaxwell> jnewbery: it's not with your implementation specifically, but the correct behavior.  Shutting down on never-behind wallets who just drained their keypools (or never had a big keypool) is undesirable, but it doesn't appear to be possible to detect if a wallet had potentially been behind or not. (e.g. the only during rescan hurestic will fail in some places where the node and the wallet were both 
12:09 < gmaxwell> behind; as a simple example: backup your whole .bitcoin directory and later restor the backup)
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12:10 < MarcoFalke> so 11022 is for 0.15 and 10882 should be removed from the milestone?
12:10 < gmaxwell> restore*
12:11 < wumpus> MarcoFalke: huh 
12:11 < luke-jr> IMO the correct behaviour would be an interface for pruning locks in general (usable by external wallets too), and track the best chain independently from where the UTXO set is. but this is way too complicated IMO. :/
12:11 < wumpus> wasn't it the other way around?
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12:11 < gmaxwell> MarcoFalke: that was my suggestion: merge the part we know is done. I don't think we can make a 10882 right now that won't result in strange behavior in some corner cases. 
12:11 < sipa> luke-jr: yes, that's the eventual goal - agree, but we don't have to go there in one step
12:11 < jnewbery> wumpus : MarcoFalke has it right. 11022 is the simple subset
12:11 < wumpus> 11022 was removed from 0.15, and 10882 replaced it
12:11 < achow101> wumpus: 11022 is newer than 10882
12:12 < gmaxwell> (at least not in short order)
12:12 < wumpus> why and who did that then?
12:12  * wumpus is really confused
12:12 < gmaxwell> 11022 is a massive improvement and safty increase. 
12:12 < sipa> 11022 is 10882 without the shutdown logic
12:12 < achow101> wumpus: 10882 was created, 11022 was split out from 10882
12:12 < wumpus> what can we realistically finish in say, a week?
12:12 < gmaxwell> wumpus: there was a thid PR you're thinking of 11022 is new, as of a few hours ago.
12:12 < luke-jr> what if we just stop pruning, and let the normal low-disk-space shutdown do the job? ;)
12:13 < sipa> luke-jr: die
12:13 < luke-jr> :|     
12:13 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: pruning is also not the only issue.
12:13 < wumpus> we can't continue adding things for 0.15 as that fix grows in scope more and more
12:13 < sipa> wumpus: 11022 is a reduction in scope
12:13 < sipa> i think 11022 can be ready to merge today or so
12:13 < wumpus> as this all deals with something that is not a regression in 0.15, I'm starting to be really doubtful about this
12:13 < gmaxwell> wumpus: that new PR radically reduced the scope, to the core part that has been in every PR so far.
12:13 < luke-jr> gmaxwell: what am I missing?
12:14 < sipa> *today
12:14 < jnewbery> 11022 is ready now. It needs rereview by people, but it should be uncontroversial as it's a subset of what's already been ACKed
12:14 < wumpus> ah yes I was confused with the other 'keypool topup' PR
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12:15 < MarcoFalke> ok, changed the milestones.
12:15 < wumpus> thanks
12:16 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: you could start by already reading the comments that are there.  Each version has failed in different corner cases.  I'll go update the PR with a longer list but after spending an hour talking to Pieter about it I'm just dispondent that it's all a mess that we won't fix quickly (again, not due to the code; but due to what behavior would actually be acceptable.)
12:16 < jnewbery> full history: Jonas's PR was 10240. I rebased and cleaned that up as 10830. I then reduced the scope and incorporated a bunch of feedback in 10882. I've now reduced the scope again in 11022
12:16 < wumpus> jnewbery: that's a painful history, thanks for sticking with it
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12:17 < jnewbery> painful is a pretty accurate description!
12:17 < jonasschnelli> ;-)     
12:17 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: but in general, versions that shutdown based on low keypool have a problem with existing wallets failing to work when users upgrade, and efforts to avoid that can create cases where we'll fail to force a shutdown when we should. (for example if the user backed up and restored a whole .bitcoin directory).
12:17 < jnewbery> but let's try to get 11022 reviewed, and if gmaxwell could leave a nice long comment on 10882 about edge cases perhaps we can try again after 0.15
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12:18 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: and I think now that a whole subfamily of suggestions I was making are just impossible to actually make work right, for which I am very sorry.
12:18 < gmaxwell> jnewbery: will do
12:18 < jnewbery> gmaxwell thanks
12:19 < jnewbery> sipa ryanofsky morcos bluematt instagibbs reviewed 10882. Should be a straightforward task for them to rereview 11022
12:19 < sipa> jnewbery: on it
12:19 < instagibbs> gotcha
12:19 < sipa> (right now)
12:19 < wumpus> We can't rule all out edge cases. Tthe most important thing is that people upgrading won't automatically run into the issue because 0.15 sets a larger keypool default. 
12:20 < jnewbery> upgrade isn't an issue in 11022
12:20 < wumpus> good!
12:20 < instagibbs> will review today
12:20 < jnewbery> (and actually isn't in 10882 as it's now implemented, but let's not get into that)
12:20 < wumpus> do we have a test for that? :)
12:21 < jnewbery> no, as far as I'm aware we have no upgrade tests. It'd be nice to have them
12:21 < sipa> (gmaxwell went offline)
12:21 < wumpus> no, we don't have any upgrade tests
12:22 < instagibbs> jnewbery, to refresh memory: "Notably, it does not stop the node or prevent the best block from advancing if the keypool drops below a threshold" this is only in case of crypted?
12:22 < sipa> instagibbs: my belief is that it'll just succesfully top up when unlocked
12:23 < jnewbery> instagibbs, in 10882 we would only ever prevent best block advancing/stop node when top up was unsuccessful (ie encrypted locked wallet)
12:23 < sipa> jnewbery: great
12:23 < jnewbery> 11022 removes all prevent best block advancing/stop node behaviour
12:23 < instagibbs> got it
12:24 < wumpus> even better would it be if we had test cases for all of gmaxwell's edge cases
12:24 < sipa> <gmaxwell> we can now have rescan instructions in our relwase notes: unlock the wallet and run rescan rpc
12:24 < jnewbery> 11022 is really very simple. It has a bunch of refactor commits, but the functional change is fairly small
12:24  * gmaxwell back
12:25 < jnewbery> if we can get bitcoin-wallet-tool and offline topup into v0.16 we have a very nice way of sidestepping most of the problems I believe
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12:25 < gmaxwell> jnewbery: sipa was just saying something like that to me.
12:25 < sipa> jnewbery: alternatively, make the dynamic-load-wallet RPC fail in case of too low keypool, and make it take an optional passphrase
12:25 < luke-jr> at least GUI can block on a passphrase
12:26 < sipa> luke-jr: that too
12:26 < jnewbery> yes!
12:26 < luke-jr> sipa: oooh, that's an excellent approach for bitcoind
12:26 < gmaxwell> but all to much for 0.15 now.  But at least 11022 massively narrows the window and creates a workaround.
12:26 < sipa> agree
12:27 < sipa> any other 0.15-related topics?
12:27 < wumpus> although harder to implement there's no reason bitcoind couldn't block on a passphrase, justblock everything until a walletpassphrase command
12:27 < jnewbery> yuck
12:28 < luke-jr> if I prioritise rebasing the optional default-wallet, would it be considered for inclusion?
12:28 < jnewbery> multiwallet?
12:28 < luke-jr> wumpus: can RPC run without the node running?
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12:29 < wumpus> luke-jr: in the same way the GUI can I guess
12:30 < gmaxwell> jnewbery: I think that is less yuck than some other options.  Though really it's block until passphrase or the critical key level is changed.
12:30 < wumpus> holding up RPC commands for a long time is bound to run into timeouts though
12:30 < luke-jr> wumpus: we already throw exceptions during init
12:31 < luke-jr> so we'd just need to make an exception for walletpassphrase
12:31 < wumpus> yes it's kind of yuck, it's opposite from anything we want to do, with the wallet being able to block the node
12:31 < luke-jr> the catch to this (and GUI prompting I guess) is that we need to load the wallet earlier
12:32 < gmaxwell> longer term we'll need ways to rescan wallets when there is pruning.  E.g. PIR wallet queries. But that is a research project with a 1yr horizon or so.
12:32 < gmaxwell> once we have something like this I think much of this mess goes away.
12:32 < jnewbery> Are there any other circumstances where bitcoind waits for stdin? I think it might inadvertently break peoples assumptions
12:32 < jonasschnelli> pir?
12:33 < sipa> jonasschnelli: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_information_retrieval
12:33 < jnewbery> also it's messy if multiwallets are prompting for passphrases
12:33 < jonasschnelli> thy     
12:33 < gmaxwell> jnewbery: not stdin, but accepting rpc connections and throwing the not ready yet error for all but walletpassphrase.
12:33 < gmaxwell> (like we do when loading the block index)
12:34 < jnewbery> oh ok, yeah that's not so bad
12:34 < gmaxwell> now I understand the yuck better. :)
12:34 < jnewbery> but to be clear, not for 0.15 :)
12:34 < gmaxwell> yes.
12:34 < wumpus> luke-jr: you mean going back into warmup mode? hmm then all clients would have to handle that
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12:35 < wumpus> oh certainly not stdin
12:35 < luke-jr> wumpus: I mean never leaving warmup mode :p
12:35 < wumpus> luke-jr: that'd make sense
12:35 < wumpus> luke-jr: I somehow assumed it was something that could happen at runtime
12:35 < wumpus> anyhow, yes not for 0.15
12:36 < luke-jr> it probably can
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12:36 < luke-jr> keypool size is still configurable I assume
12:36 < wumpus> but for dynamic wallet loading optionally passing the passphrase on load makes sense
12:37 < wumpus> ok - any other topics?
12:37 < jnewbery> Being able to run commands on load was my main motivation for #10740 . Unlocking and topping-up keypool fits well with that
12:38 < gmaxwell> I'd like to remind people that we all need to be testing on master hard right now. :)
12:38 < gribble> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/10740 | [WIP] [wallet] dynamic loading/unloading of wallets by jnewbery · Pull Request #10740 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub
12:38 < wumpus> if only we had rc1 out everyone could be testing on rc1 :)
12:40 < sdaftuar> where are we on the segwit address format?
12:40 < wumpus> #topic segwit address format
12:41 < sipa> sdaftuar: https://github.com/sipa/bech32/pull/21
12:41 < sipa> almost done with a C++ reference version (though gmaxwell keeps finding untested cases)
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12:41 < sipa> when that's done, i'll submit a PR to core to integrate it
12:41 < sdaftuar> great!
12:41 < jonasschnelli> nice
12:41 < cfields> sipa: great. will review that.
12:42 < sipa> which will need some refactor to get rid of CBitcoinAddress (i'm sorry for ever introducing that... there is no point for that to be a separate class...)
12:42 < Chris_Stewart_5> Is this going to be in 0.15.0 or 0.15.1?
12:42 < cfields> sipa: maybe best to just cram it into CBitcoinAddress first for easy 0.15 backport ?
12:42 < sdaftuar> not 0.15.0
12:42 < wumpus> certainly not 0.15.0
12:42 < Chris_Stewart_5> ok good
12:42 < jonasschnelli> Chris_Stewart_5: not in 0.15.0 maybe in 0.15.SW
12:42 < sipa> cfields: i'll see what i can do
12:43 < cfields> ok     
12:44 < wumpus> any other topics?
12:44 < CodeShark> I have a quick one
12:44 < luke-jr> the hardest topics to discuss are the ones that are not disclosed. :P
12:45 < CodeShark> I would need to rebase, but now that SegWit is activating I'd really like to merge https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10350
12:46 < wumpus> #topic Added support for MSG_FILTERED_WITNESS_BLOCK messages
12:47 < jonasschnelli> Wound't that require a bip first?
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12:47 < CodeShark> is it really worth the effort?
12:47 < CodeShark> it's getting deprecated eventually
12:47 < CodeShark> probably pretty soon
12:47 < gmaxwell> well obviously not merged now, but perhaps in the .SW release. It needs a bip. unconditionally but it would be a trivial spec.
12:47 < CodeShark> ok     
12:47 < gmaxwell> I can help with the bip.
12:47 < sipa> it doesn't look like it's too much work to add a witness proof
12:47 < wumpus> yeah it's a network protocol change so it needs some kind of BIP
12:47 < gmaxwell> (show of good will, since I really dislike the feature. :) )
12:48 < CodeShark> thanks, gmaxwell
12:48 < wumpus> if only to be able to refer to it in bips.md and such
12:48 < gmaxwell> (not due to it itself, but due to increasing the scope of BIP37)
12:48 < jonasschnelli> CodeShark: why would it get deprecated (you mean dep. bip37 in favor of client side filtering)?
12:48 < CodeShark> jonasschnelli: yes
12:48 < luke-jr> if it's literally only for short-term use by mSIGNA, I'm not sure it strictly NEEDS a BIP.
12:48 < gmaxwell> luke-jr: it's trivial to specify however.
12:48 < luke-jr> sure
12:49 < CodeShark> yeah, probably should stick to process
12:49 < wumpus> why not? it's good to have some kind of documentation
12:49 < gmaxwell> and the spec can also do things like tell people it is intended to be short lived.
12:49 < jonasschnelli> I guess there are still usecases for BIP37 once BIP150 is life (trusted peers)
12:49 < wumpus> others might want to use it too
12:49 < luke-jr> CodeShark: if you can rebase it quickly, maybe we can throw it in Knots until it's ready for Core
12:49 < CodeShark> sure :)
12:49 < jonasschnelli> I'm strongly advice for a BIP. Other may be interested and we don't want more specification within the code.
12:50 < gmaxwell> jonasschnelli: you can still do better things for that case, like send them the addresses explicitly.
12:50 < jonasschnelli> gmaxwell: Yes. But would require more work to do. :)
12:50 < sipa> i'd really like to see the addition of witness proofs, though - i understand that for your exact use case (which implies a trusted full node) that's unnecessary, but i don't think we should go that route in protocol extensions
12:50 < wumpus> gmaxwell: heh yes, if the connection is encrypted and the peer is trusted, why not, why even bother with a bloom filter
12:50 < gmaxwell> in any case basically any argument against doing a BIP is an argument for one too... it's trivial.  it's intended to be short lived (BIP would tell people that). 
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12:51 < gmaxwell> sipa: it would be a trivial change to make it do the witness proofs, no? just root on the other tree.
12:51 < sipa> gmaxwell: and give the coinbase, and normal merkle proof for the coinbase
12:51 < CodeShark> sipa: I am still not convinced it's worth the effort to add the witness proof
12:51 < wumpus> then again BIP37 works now, that's a point, step-by-step evolution usually means that things keep moving instead of being blocked by big moves
12:51 < CodeShark> the coinbase issue means we need an entire new data structure
12:51 < sipa> CodeShark: then i would be opposed to supporting it
12:52 < sipa> CodeShark: use RPC instead
12:52 < CodeShark> huh?!
12:52 < gmaxwell> CodeShark: it's just a existing thing for the coinbase, and then one more rooted in it.
12:52 < CodeShark> it already takes me hours to sync back just a few weeks
12:53 < CodeShark> RPC would mean it takes forever
12:53 < sipa> CodeShark: you're asking to add a feature, available to every P2P client, which can only be safely used in a trusted setting
12:53 < luke-jr> why would you need a witness proof in this case anyway?
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12:53 < CodeShark> sipa: ah, I see your point
12:53 < sipa> luke-jr: because the full node can lie
12:53 < luke-jr> sipa: about what? these peers don't have any need for the witness data at all
12:53 < CodeShark> agree that the trusted mode is distinct from p2p, but the HTTP server approach just won't do ;)
12:53 < sipa> luke-jr: read the PR
12:53 < wumpus> sipa has a good point, if it's to be on the P2P network, it has to be possible to use it untrusted
12:53 < sipa> luke-jr: CodeShark needs it to determine which subset of multisig signers spent the coins
12:54 < luke-jr> oh!     
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12:54 < wumpus> if not you'd have to wait for BIP150 (authentication)
12:54 < wumpus> and allow it to authenticated peers only
12:54 < sipa> yes, that would be private extensions easier
12:55 < sipa> CodeShark: but honestly, i don't think adding a proof for the witnesses is that hard; just send two structures (one with normal proof for coinbase, one with witness proof for the rest)
12:55 < CodeShark> it requires a lot of additional clientside modifications as well, I'd rather focus on clientside filtering
12:55 < gmaxwell> yea, if we had BIP150 I wouldn't mind random extensions there even without bips. if you're only using it between trusted adjcencies the criteria is different.
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12:57 < CodeShark> not saying it's hard - just time I think would be better invested elsewhere
12:57 < sipa> yes, like helping with client side filtering :)
12:57 < CodeShark> indeed
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12:57 < sdaftuar> also though, if you intend to only use something on trusted nodes you could just carry a custom patch, no?  i mean, if there's not much other demand for this extension.
12:57 < achow101> does client side filtering have a bip?
12:57 < jonasschnelli> Could you not impelement directly the client side filtering?
12:58 < sipa> jonasschnelli: it's a nontrivial effort
12:58 < jonasschnelli> achow101: roasbeef hasn't opened the PR (last state is the ML post)
12:58 < sipa> needs stored bloom filters for all blocks on disk etc
12:58 < wumpus> achow101: not afaik
12:59 < jonasschnelli> sipa: Yes. But a long term strategy and there are a couple of people willing to contribute
12:59 < sipa> sure
12:59 < luke-jr> I assumed jonasschnelli meant implement BIP37 client-side
12:59 < jonasschnelli> not bip37
12:59 < CodeShark> lol, BIP37 needs to eventually die
12:59 < gmaxwell> I don't thin the spec has been updated to eliminate the divisions yet.
13:00 -!- Pasha is now known as Cory     
13:00 < wumpus> meeting time is over
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13:00 < wumpus> #endmeeting
13:00 < lightningbot> Meeting ended Thu Aug 10 20:00:18 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
13:00 < lightningbot> Minutes:        http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2017/bitcoin-core-dev.2017-08-10-19.00.html
13:00 < lightningbot> Minutes (text): http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2017/bitcoin-core-dev.2017-08-10-19.00.txt
13:00 < lightningbot> Log:            http://www.erisian.com.au/meetbot/bitcoin-core-dev/2017/bitcoin-core-dev.2017-08-10-19.00.log.html
13:00 < luke-jr> but I just pinged roasbeef for the meeting :P
13:00 < wumpus> :P     
13:00 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] MarcoFalke opened pull request #11025: qa: Fix inv race in example_test (master...Mf1708-qaInvExampleTest) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11025
13:00 < roasbeef> achow101: there's a BIP draft, but I've been side tracked on another project. I need to incorporate suggestions for optimizations, then wrap up some TODO's and i'll officially request a #
13:00 < roasbeef> will be able to finish it up in a week or two
13:01 < jonasschnelli> roasbeef: Thanks for working on this!
13:01 < achow101> roasbeef: cool
13:01 < CodeShark> yes, roasbeef  +1
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13:07 < instagibbs> roasbeef, does the other project rhyme with brightening
13:09 < roasbeef> something that just occured to me is also that it would be possible for pruned nodes to still serve light clients, assuming they still keep the filters on disk
13:09 < sipa> instagibbs: not in my understanding of english pronounciation
13:09 < roasbeef> instagibbs: maaaybe
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13:44 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] luke-jr opened pull request #11026: Bugfix: Use testnet RequireStandard for -acceptnonstdtxn default (master...bugfix_acceptnonstd_def) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11026
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16:09 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 opened pull request #11027: [RPC] Only return hex field once in getrawtransaction (master...fix-getrawtx) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11027
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16:33 < sipa> happy block 0x75300 everyone
16:34 < sipa> it doesn't look at good in hex :(
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16:58 < luke-jr> XD     
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17:14 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] sipa opened pull request #11028: Avoid masking of difficulty adjustment errors by checkpoints (master...20170810_maskpow) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11028
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20:47 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] achow101 closed pull request #10875: BIP 91 deployment parameters (master...bip91-dep-params) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/10875
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21:17 < bitcoin-git> [bitcoin] FelixWeis opened pull request #11029: [RPC] trivial: gettxout no longer shows version of tx (master...patch-1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/11029
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